Columbus Day - Time to Beat Up Italians and Pilgrims

So do the right thing: go to a casino.

Hey, the firewater isn't cheap.

Halito Patrician. Ohoyo aiukli, yakoke.

Chahta vtta! Ken vtta.

I always wondered why we celebrated Columbus' "discovering" America.

He never even set foot on what is now the United States.

Leif Ericson, on the other hand, most likely did. Definitely Canada, and strong evidence that he, or members of his North American settlement, ventured quite far south.

But, there was also a group of people who discovered America anywhere from 10,000 to 35,000 years ago. That group included some of my ancestors.

I hope this thread stays nice, and looks more at history, as opposed to going down the wrong path.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. I don't know the translation of what you said, Ken, but you get a thanks from me.

As an Italian, I have only one thing to say...

"It wasn't me! I was wit dat udder guy, you know, doing dat udder ting..."

On the serious side...

This day is also a day to celebrate the great contributions of Italian Americans to our beloved country.

I discovered that more Italian Americans gave their lives in WW2 than any other single group of Americans.

The Irish have St. Patrick's Day, and Blacks have MLK day.

Can my fellow WF members who have the good fortune to be Italian-American fill us in with a few more contributions?

All The Best To My Italian-American Friends!

TL

Sorry, but there is no such thing as an Italian-American.
Your American or your not.
Unless you have a dual citizenship.
Otherwise your an American with an Italian heritage.
Both of which one has the right to be proud of.

CD I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Of course, I was just using Italian-American as the example because someone used the term ,but what I'm saying applies to any hyphenated-American group.
I feel that hyphenation like this greatly contribute to the division of American citizens, intentionally or not.
And our country needs to come together, not divide itself even more.

I did not mean to offend anyone with the term Italian-American.

Sure, we're all American as apple pie.

________ American is just a simple way to identify a group of Americans of a certain background - as there are many.

Anyone offended has my deepest.

TL

Let's not forget this contribution:

"fuggedaboutit"

Actually TL, thinking about it, a thread with this subject matter it is probably one of the few instances where the hyphenated American term is appropriate.

I agree with Kim - I HATE hyphenated nationalitiles and names.

You are not hyphenated if you were born here.

I am, in my 100% Italian family only the 2nd generation to be born in the USA.

I am an American.

My genes are Italian (Bari and Florence).

My jeans are American ( black)

My father was a Leautenant (spelling?) in the Air Force in WWII. A turret gunner because he was a shrimp. He served with my two uncles, both AF. He went on to become the pink Cadillac driving Black Sheep.

His family produced 3 doctors (my cousins) a few nurses and lots of engineers.

We don't have a single Indian killer in our family OR Mafia (but a few wannabes).

I have been married to two half-breed Indians.

1st - an English-Dutch-Blackfoot a big white guy with black eyes
2nd - a French-Apache (a blue-eyed-blonde)

3rd - a 2nd generation Irishman (a blue-eyed-blonde) another story wait for St. Pat's Day

I have several relatives who married the Irish. I have English/Scotch/Irish/German half-sisters (4). (through 2 of them I am related to George Washington's mother.)

We are Americans.

It is not my fault that we can all be proud to be fascist imperialists.

Do WOP.

People can choose how to label themselves - you don't have to like it, but I have news for you...it's not going to stop. So, instead of getting worked up about it, why not embrace it? It gives you insight into how the persone feels about themselves.

The idea that it goes against the Great American Melting Pot ideal is silly. Wouldn't a TRUE melting pot ALLOW for those who choose to hyphenate their identity, and those who don't?

Anyway, this could trun out to be a slippery slope, so that's all I'm going to say on that aspect of the discussion.

As to celebrating those with Italian heritage on Columbus Day; a simple suggestion. Change the name of the day to reflect on ALL Italians, not one as polarizing as Columbus.

I believe Peter Falk was Jewish, and of Eastern European descent (Russian or Czech or something).

All the best
Michael "I'm a Norwegian-Finnish-Alsatian-Welsh-English-Danish-Native-American-American" Oksa

p.s. I am 1/16 Native American, but sadly, it was a big family secret, and I do not know which tribe. I really wish I did.

Let's not fight please.

Michael said:
"People can choose how to label themselves - you don't have to like it, but I have news for you...it's not going to stop. So, instead of getting worked up about it, why not embrace it? It gives you insight into how the persone feels about themselves.

The idea that it goes against the Great American Melting Pot ideal is silly. Wouldn't a TRUE melting pot ALLOW for those who choose to hyphenate their identity, and those who don't?"

Someone might get worked up about something so that means you should embrace it? Thats probably one of the worst statements of logic I have ever seen.
And the second part is also incorrect, a melting pot would say we all melt into one entity. And with this subject matter,that would be an American.

As to the reason and/or need to even think of themselves as hyphenated Something escapes me. Growing up I would ask my parents what I was, and they would say I was Heinz 57, a little bit of everything. But I always knew I was an American.

As I said before, usually the only thing hyphenating does is divide.

Are you mad?
I'm not.

And the one thing you are correct about is that hyphenating by definition doesn't divide but in this case it does. And I know I am not the only person that feels this way. But the thing that makes America great is that no matter who discovered it, we can all express our opinions.

It is hard to believe we consider the place "discovered" when there were so many inhabitants already there. But nobody "officially" knew about the place from the European continent. And it is the "official" version that gets put down on record. All sorts of records show that you can't just do something - you have to have it officially stated that you did it for it to count in history.

There were visitors for thousands of years. Copper was mined out of MI 6,000 years ago. The copper there is very unique and when a copper artifact is found, there is no question of where the copper came from if it's MI copper. There were also miners out in the area of Georgia before Erickson and Columbus showed up. The difference is that Columbus had a country's money officially backing him and had officials from many countries tracking his progress. By the time the pilgrims set out for this place, they had heard enough about that expedition to just take it for granted that they were going to Columbus's new territory.

What about Mt Everest? How many actually stood on the top before the crew with the publicity behind the expedition stood there to be called the first? With towns all around that area for so long before the expedition, and knowing human curiosity, do you think they were the actual first - or maybe just the official first?

New minerals are found every year. You might have found a specimen of the mineral years before - but the guy who takes his specimen in and has it officially declared is the one who takes the credit for the discovery. You can't take yours in later and claim that you found it before the other guy.

And there are all sorts of factors that give the official award to someone beside the actual person deserving of the honor.
Paul Revere didn't make it far on "HIS" ride - it was a woman who finished it. Far too scandalous in that era to publically honor a woman, especially one running around town in her nightgown!

So, anyhow, after a couple of thousand years of small teams coming to the states to mine - and with millions of people inhabiting a continent that never had any clue that they were lost - The queen's money claimed the discovery. What happened next was horrifying, but far from unusual. Throughout history humans have slaughtered each other mindlessly in the belief that their own people and ways are superior. Few, tribes or countries, have lived completely without war. We, instead of learning to live peacefully, now have built our capabilities to be egocentric to the level of being able to destroy a whole planet with our assurances of our own right in doing so.

Holidays aren't always just an excuse to celebrate........they are a time to remember - a time to reflect. They are the markers of change, accomplishment, and shame as well.

Take your day off and have a good time. But take time to reflect on that which this day has been placed as marker and keep alive with us the good, which is the human spirit of bravery and adventure. Vow to never repeat the bad, which is our ability to be so self-righteous that we can slaughter whole civilizations and feel justly caused. Then say a prayer - that we can be better for having walked that path.

"ONE NATION UNDER GOD INDIVISIBLE WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL"

no hyphens.


HI Thomas. sorry if I ruined your day - eat-a some-a pizza you will-a feel-a better-a.

Maybe it's just a very ancient tactic of divide and conquer.

We're all of and from the same. We are from one. You may
call that one what ever pleases you. No matter.

My very short take on it.

Thomas, no need to feel badly about anything. No dread, no
shame. Be happy and grateful to be alive.

Be kind to all that lives, because when you are, the goodness
that exists everywhere becomes stronger. Your kindness to
the smallest among us will never pass unnoticed.

Is this going to turn into an argument about hyphens?

All I'm saying is why get angry if people want to label themselves a certain way?

If someone sees or hears my last name and they ask "what nationality is that?" I don't say "American", because it's not, it's Finnish. But I don't call myself Finnish-American.

My hyphenations would be too long. But if someone else of the exact same background as me would want to call themselves Finnish-American, that's fine with me.

Who am I to tell them they can't? Or that they shouldn't? Or imply that they are UN-American for doing so?

The other point. If we want to celebrate the accomplishments and contributions of Italians in America, then I think changing the name from Columbus Day would help a lot. It would remove a lot of the controversy.

I also pointed out that others discovered our continent thousands, and thousands of years ago.

It's not a question of whether or not Columbus discovered America, because people were already here. Which goes back to my very first point: I never understood WHY we celebrated Columbus Day.

To me, it would be like celebrating Alfred Worden for landing on the moon, though several others cam before him.

There are many people, from many different backgrounds in our country, and homogenization goes counter to what I belive. I suppose that statement gets people riled up, but it shouldn't. We are in America, and should have the freedom to believe what we want, and label ourselves how we want.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. And those two little words weren't added until the 1950s.

One of my fav Frank Sinatra songs...


Enjoy!

TL

Hi Patrician,

The respect is already there. I'm only asking for it in return.

I think my previous comments would back that up.

I definitely don't want this to be a heated argument.

My position on people speaking other languages is completely different than yours, but that's okay.

Hear me out, please.

People should be allowed to speak whatever language they choose. I've always felt that way, and it's based on the Freedom of Speech amendment to the U.S. Constitution. It's not called the Freedom of English clause.

Okay, that's where we disagree (I assume), but...

Because those are my beliefs, I also don't want someone else cramming their language down my throat. Such as TV commercials.

Here's another example. At my youngest's school Christmas program there were 3 songs sung 100% in another language. It doesn't bother me because it was another language - it bothered me because they are doing it to the kids.

If someone is in the grocery store speaking another language, I try to listen. Other languages are music to my ears. I prefer subtitled movies to ones that are dubbed.

So, I can understand your frustration, but I believe people can choose to express themselves on whatever language they choose - AS LONG AS they don't start telling me how I should speak.

We may have some common ground on the issue after all.

Yes, I truly do respect differing views, and don't get mad about those who don't like hyphenation (for lack of a better term, as a general concept). All I'm asking for is the same in return for those who choose to hyphenate.

As I said, I'm not a hyphenator, but I have NO problem with those who are.

All the best,
Michael

My favorite Italian related food is...

anything with Alfredo sauce.


BTW...

Americans of Italian decent have the most popular food in the nation with Mexican & Chinese food close behind.


TL

Well, I have to say it. People say DIVERSITY made this country great! *****WRONG*****! Diversity alone BREAKS UP countries! What made this country great was UNITY in diversity! WORKING TOGETHER!!!!!

What many people claim is that a bunch of people having money and an interest in a company and doing different things makes a company rich. That is the recipe for BANKRUPTCY!

What I am saying is that contributing money and different ideas to work toward a COMMON GOAL can make that company a world leader! The SAME concept works for countries.

So we should have a common language, even if it isn't the ONLY one people can speak. communication is cheaper, easier, more dependable, safer, etc.... If I am in a car wreck, I don't want to find out it was because someone couldn't read a sign. If I have an EMERGENCY, I don't want to have it be worse because someone can't understand English. I DON'T want to have to pay for 50+ interpreters, etc.... Just to complicate EVERYONES lives.

Steve

LOL - with the propensity humans have shown to kill that which is different from their own - I'm rather amazed that people aren't a tad frightened to hyphenate.

I prefer tomato-based sauces. Lots of lycopene.

I used to prefer tomato sauces with lots of meat (meatballs, sausage) and a mound of sharp cheddar on top. However, since my health scare, I eat meatless sauce with veggies mixed in, and only a sprinkle of cheese.

All the best,
Michael

My mother says I have tomato sauce instead of blood in my veins. Then she tells me to have some pasta with my cheese.

I love pesto with fresh organic basil, pine nuts, GARLIC and olive oil (and cheese) JUST AS MUCH as tomato sauce. I like alfredo ok too.

I don't like meat sullying up stuff in general, Mikey.

I only eat either brown rice bran pasta (no-gluten) or now Japanese shirataki noodles which are hella healthy. (corn pasta is also healthy and good) (whole wheat just isn't the same)

Mangia!

Ok, we have gone from nationality to languages.

"People should be allowed to speak whatever language they choose. I've always felt that way, and it's based on the Freedom of Speech amendment to the U.S. Constitution. It's not called the Freedom of English clause."

Sorry, thats only half correct. Someone should be able to speak whatever and however many languages they want, but the should be speaking english as the main language in America.

The best reason has already been stated by Steve/Seasoned: If I have an emergency I want to be able to explain whats going on to someone that speaks the same language.

I was watching TV a few weeks ago and all of the sudden a PSA came on.
The whole damn thing was in Spanish. Not one word was in English!
I don't have a clue what type of PSA it was.

While building a tower of Babel sounds like a good idea to those who feel thier personal freedom is restricted by having us speak in one language, there also comes a time when the good of the many outweigh the good of the few.

I prefer Vietnamese coffee over Thai coffee.

Yeh - but there are good cheeses - Parmesian, Asiago, Romano and Mozzarella - are all low in fat (but too much sodium in the processed bunch)

I eat organic sharp white cheddar and it is GOOD too.

Normal cheese can really be bad - it appears besides the fat to be the (I think it is called something like Retin - way off spelling - it is what keeps it hard - does the same to your system).

Really, Sal? I never had that - it sounds awwwwwsome!

One of the best things I have ever experienced in this life is Roasted Elephant Garlic. You roast the whole bulb, skin and all.

Then squeeze it out of the cloves onto toasted baguettes (any French bread) that has been brushed with olive oil. A little white wine.

o-my!

Please don't hold this against me, but...

I don't care too much for garlic.

I can tolerate small amounts, but it's too easy for it to overpower other flavors. Maybe it's not a "garlic" problem as much as it's people using it as a crutch. (NOT imlying that's anyone here).

Which is a shame, because I know how incredibly healthy garlic is.

All the best,
Michael "Hanging His Head In Shame" Oksa

LOL. You are forgiven for your trespasses against Garlic, Mikey.

You might like elephant garlic because it is a lot milder than regular garlic.

hoo boy! that sounds awesome, Mike.

yes i have been thinking about what to eat next since this last page!

mangia!

Well it has been said we tend to get into dangerous tangents in this forum........and I think that almost absolutely, these darned food tangents are the most dangerous of all of them. Who can go through one of our longer threads and not end up in the kitchen rummaging through the refrigerator? I am sooooo glad that I have a metabolism set on high burn or I'd be the size of a half grown rhinoceros by now.

Pat - I'm surprised you missed that horse doover craze as near to SF as you are. When I spent the holiday at my sister's in Stockton a few years back we attended several gatherings and that pesto stuffed cheese ring, crackers, and plates of fresh steamed shrimp were at the center of EVERY horse doover table from Stockton to SF.
Went to a party in Blackhawk and had never seen a wheel of cheese that large before - and we killed it.
I gotta go eat something. Can't hack this any more.

I don't get out much Sal - and in fact I never heard of Pesto on either side of my family.

- It has only been in the last few decades at some point I can't remember that I became aware of Pesto.

When I was in SF the horse d'ovres were usually Dim Sum (Chinese) love it. The only exception is every bar with hot derves and it is fried calamari - which i can make a whole meal out of.

By the way I just learned/invented poor man's pesto because i don't always feel i can afford $15 lb pine nuts - grind up some dry roasted, sea salted sun flower seeds. It is wonderful - not exactly as good but will pass - with enough garlic and basil even cardboard would do.

Mangia!

Just wanted to mention one of my favorite Americans who happens to be of Italian descent....

Lee Ving!!

Lead singer of Fear.

I don't know what's most interesting.

1. He started out playing mandolin.

2. He served in the US military (possibly Viet Nam based on his age).

3. He's OLDER than my mom!

You can read the whole article, if you care to, at...

Lee Ving - SWINDLE Magazine

As you can hear, he's no frank Sinatra (for better or worse)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6aZynalcvc

Rock on!
Michael

I am proud of Leonardo DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Frank Zappa, Robert DeNiro, Al Pacino, Anna Maria Alberghetti (James Dean's girlfriend), Frank Sinatra and Arnold Schwartnegger (oh whoops he's not Italian).

Good list, Patricia.

I didn't know Lee Ving was of Italian descent until about 5 minutes before I posted in the thread.

That's certainly not to discount any others. The list could actually get quite long.

~M~

Here's some questions on your 'reasoning' -Mike and Ken now.

Not saying you are wrong or right, just curious - I have an open mind.

1. Why do you suppose we have this conspiracy that we are told Columbus discovered America and not the truth that this should be Leif Ericson day?

2. Why didn't anybody come after Ericson and they waited until Columbus RE-discovered America and thought it was whatever country (how irrelevant).

2.a - do you think Ericson kept it a secret for some reason? Like so just his people would come? Then the secret got out and Columbus was a copy cat and took the honor that was rightfully Ericsons?

3. What makes you think that book you have has the truth and nothing else we were told is true? Could it be possible the book is a conspiracy?

4. Do you think that the Indian Genocide would/could be blamed on Ericson instead of Columbus then if he is the one to be credited with discovering America?

You have to take the good with the bad - can't have it both ways.

Fair questions, Patricia.

Not to get too deep, but Ericson didn't discover America, nor did I say he did. There were people here before Columbus and before Ericson.

There IS a Leif Ericson Day, just not a federal holiday.

Side note: I don't think I ever said I was OPPOSED to Columbus Day. My comments about changing the name were only to give Americans of Italian descent a day that's not so controversial. A way to remember ALL Italians, instead of just one.

The book Ken and I refer to is not PRO-Ericson. It is well-researched, with LOTS of references to back up its claims. It mentions some of the things that were done that many people do not know about, that's all. It's not ANTI-Columbus. I would describe it as PRO-Truth. It covers many other subjects as well.

Ericson didn't keep his discovery a secret, he PROMOTED it - heavily. And, many people did come, and set up settlements for many years. Particularly in Newfoundland and Labrador. There are even remnants of Viking settlements in the area. Not too far-fetched once you look at a map and see how close Iceland is to the North American continent.

The book doesn't appear to be a conspiracy, and it doesn't claim popular beliefs about history are a conspiracy either. Again, it has references for everything, was released by a major publisher (not an underground publisher), and was a best-seller. I only add the best-selling thing to point out that high profile books are often scrutinized.

There is some evidence that Ericson, or members of his party encountered Native Americans. Even trading with them. I haven't used the term Indian Genocide anywhere. And it's impossible to tell if the Vikings would have treated the native population the same way. Perhaps they would have been even MORE brutal.

I honestly don't see how I'm trying to have it both ways.

It is an interesting read, but it can be a harsh dose of reality for anyone that prefers things the way they understand them, instead of wanting to know the truth.

I hope that response doesn't sound political. I am trying to be very careful in that regard, but see how it could come across that way. I'd rather see the thread stay then get zapped.

All the best,
Michael

I love History, and wow, this thread is awesome.

To be truth, Columbus was lost in his journey. so he think that he already find India. America was found by him by coincidence. But, I still honor him as a great adventurer.

But, is that right Columbus was the first man discovered America?

Regardless of the controversy, the results, good or bad.

In the 15th Century it was a daring undertaking to sail into unchartered waters. It was abold undertaking. Columbus KNEW the world was round (got that from the book, too) his big mistake was underestimating how BIG it was.

It's no surprise he thought he was in India - nothing else was supposed to be there! So, I do have a problem with people who make fun of his "mistake". His thinking was based on all the facts he had at the time.

A lot of what drove them to do what they did to the native population was driven by one thing - GOLD.

Another point. From today's perspective it's easy to demonize his actions. they were NOT the best example of human kindness. But putting yourself in his shoes... he BELIEVED what he was doing was right. He probably didn't even question it, it was what it was. That doesn't excuse it, but to some degree it does explain it.

But, if we would like to note the accomplisments of Italians in this country - it would help if the day didn't have the name of ONE polarizing figure attached to it.

All the best,
Michael

Thank you, Mike - don't take anything personally - I didn't say you said - that is what I said - maybe it isn't as bad in your part of the country, but in the West this is a big disgrace that is very political so I will shut up now on that..

I don't see why we need a day to appreciate Italians. I never thought that was what Columbus Day was - I thought it was a celebration of how we all got here and this became the USA.

We should have a day for every descendant nationality if we need one for Italians.

Yeh I mean I could take offense at all the different races that took over the Roman Empire - I couldn't care less - I guess because I don't live there.

However I guess a lot of Italians died at the hands of the Huns, the Barbarians, the Moors, Ghengis Khan - whatever. It doesn't help me to be able to rationalize what happened to the American Indian - whatever it was I am sure it was EUROPEANS and not Italians that did it.

History and geography were two of my least favorite subjects in school - so I am pretty ignorant about it all and have learned a lot, in of all places, here in the WF basement.

Thanks for explaining.

ciao.

History Channel had a great show on Columbus...There's a very good chance he was Spanish, not Italian. He may have faked his past due to being on the wrong side of a skirmish with the Queen.

Also, it's likely the Japanese came to the US West coast in the 800s, a few centuries before Leif Erikson.

There's a pretty good case that can be made the creators of clovis arrows were from Europe and came the American during the last ice age. This could mean Europeans came before the Asians who latter were considered Native Americans.

There's also very strong evidence (including fossil and DNA) that a small group of ancient Australian's came to S. America some 30,000 (?) years ago.

Kurt - there is a culture they are digging up in the area of the Mississippi that left some pretty interesting ruins and artifacts - pyramids, some intricate beads. You would probably be interested in that dig - if so I can breeze back a bit and see if I can find info on it. Their beads were relevant to an article I did = "Beads, the Latest Thing for a Long, Long Time" but at the moment I can't remember much else about it other than the roots of the culture were not known at the time I read about it. They still haven't uncovered who it was that was mining MI bronze 6,000 years ago and haven't seen a hint in Indian folklore. There is a cave in either Illinois or Indiana that has turned up some rather startling artifacts -seems to have been a storage place for some explorers of pre-columbus era. Some things turning up in the West are from 5 and 600 years ago which would put them being from anything subsequent of Columbus's journey completely out of the question.

Right now I have a few associates who are archaeologists/treasure hunters -- and something very big has been found in the Grand Canyon area. I can't get any info other than it would rewrite history and that there are life threatening attempts to keep the discovery secret. I was promised that information would be forthcoming when it could safely be released - but have sent inquiries and am still being turned down on comments.....and this is by people who tell me a lot "off the record" and know they can trust me to keep it "off record" until told otherwise. It's got me just foaming at the mouth to find out what the hell is going on.

"Columbus Day" is over.

Man, what a can of worms.

I knew it was controversial and I don't know whatever possessed me - I guess I wanted absolution -

Anyway it had its good and bad points.

Paul - please close this thread now.

Thanks.

Pat

Kurt - There's also a lot of evidence building that metals were in trade a long time before we had previously presumed. The far East seems to have been involved with trade, and there has been mining discovered to have gone on in areas of the Middle East for a lot longer than we previously knew the area to have had what we know of as culture. Heck beads have been found in Africa dating back 135,000 years, which puts abstract thought back a lot longer than we thought - and social organization as well. These beads were made of shells that were not indigenous to that area, too, which means travel at the least, and possibly trade of some sort, even if only at a remedial level.

Paul - very interesting. Is there anything in your reading that ever suggested that Columbus's sister was ever involved with John Watley of pirate fame? A treasure hunter that has unveiled a treasure thought to be Watley's cache said something about someone's sister and if I remember rightly it was his. I wish I had the relevant dates so I could remember, but you might be able to shed some light on that.

Amazing what they leave out of the school books...

Just think if the old boy hadn't discovered America we might be reading this forum in another language and saying, "America?" "What's America?" Thankfully, the Queen invested in his WSO & the rest is history.

Well, you're all wrong.

Italy has the Jus Sanguinis law (right of blood - you're Italian if your ancestors were Italian) as opposed to the Jus Solis (right of soil - you're Italian if you're born in Italy - USA goes by Jus Solis) so many of Italian-Americans are/can be also actually Italian citizens. I don't know what agreement the USA has with Italy and whether or not one can have both citizenships in either country. There may be other criteria for determining whether one is Italian or not, look at Italian laws, but it's something in that ballpark.

But in Portugal's case, for example, the law is also Jus Sanguinis and I'm pretty sure you aren't Portuguese just because you are born there but only if your ancestors are Portuguese, at least one grandparent. The USA has an agreement with Portugal, so in my case I am Portuguese and I'm also allowed to my US citizenship because I was born in the USA, believe it or not.

This post is for those who thought that where a person is born determines what a person is just because that's what they're used to and thought the whole world was like that.

An Italian-American is Italian if they say so in my book. I'm not about to presume I know more about a person than they do and tell people what they are and what they're not.

For the cry-baby "we're all Americans" it's too bad that you are incapable of imagining someone being American unless they forget where they originally came from. Pretty pathetic considering that maybe most of American "culture" is a convolution of contributions from all the different ethnicities that came here.

Besides, is an American the same as a US citizen? Let's not go there.

You're right and we are all wrong.
I'm glad you straightened us out. :rolleyes:

tommyp

You are missing the point completely.

... and that's the point.