A world gone mad?

Kay back in 03 my youngest got in a little trouble in school.
A teacher who was pushing her button all year got in her face and as Christine was walking away she said under her breath that she wanted to punch the teacher.
Well the teacher heard her and next I knew she was suspended and facing a hearing with the president of the school district where they would decide if they where going to expel her.
First words out of his mouth where "after 9/11 and columbine we have to take incidents like this very seriously and deal with them accordingly".
To make a long story short, I got her a 1 month suspension with a tutor paid for by the school district.
The real fun for me was the meeting the next day I had with the schools principal, the teacher who got in her face, and her guidance counselor who I had grown up with:rolleyes:
I understand schools taking a harder stance on violence after columbine, what 9/11 has to do with it is beyond me.
Thing is the schools are treating all incidents no matter how Innocent as major events that require harsh discipline.

So to answer your question, yes it has.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I understand schools taking a harder stance on violence after columbine, what 9/11 has to do with it is beyond me.
Thing is the schools are treating all incidents no matter how Innocent as major events that require harsh discipline.

So to answer your question, yes it has.

Because after 9/11 and columbine the idea of the 'innocent' anything....school kid, airplane passenger..etc. went right out the window.

And if by some wild freak of nature this kid flipped out and cut some little girl everyone would be screaming for the head of the pricipal, teacher and the district superintendent.

The school has no choice but to cover their asses because people are either sue happy everytime their precious little snowflake gets a bloody nose, or they pay no attention to their rabid little monster when he's spending hours pulling wings off flies and filleting the neighborhood cats and he ends up coming to show and tell with a full loaded pistol that has a brand new laser site and he's going to show everyone how it works...on the teacher.

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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Because after 9/11 and columbine the idea of the 'innocent' anything....school kid, airplane passenger..etc. went right out the window.

And if by some wild freak of nature this kid flipped out and cut some little girl everyone would be screaming for the head of the pricipal, teacher and the district superintendent.

The school has no choice but to cover their asses because people are either sue happy everytime their precious little snowflake gets a bloody nose, or they pay no attention to their rabid little monster when he's spending hours pulling wings off flies and filleting the neighborhood cats and he ends up coming to show and tell with a full loaded pistol that has a brand new laser site and he's going to show everyone how it works...on the teacher.

I agree with your comments. The problem is though that these "rules" and "laws" mean nothing to those who WOULD actually attack others.

It's like gun control...I get the reasoning behind it, but the reality is some crackhead who needs a gun to rob people for drug money won't go fill out an application and wait the mandatory 5 day period.

So, what IS the answer?

Up where I live, a kid in high school - not a problem kid, great grades, well liked, etc. - was also part of a Civil War Re-enactment group. On a Friday, he put his re-enactment gear in the back seat of his car and went to school. The reason was so he could leave and go to a weekend thing...

Well, some teacher saw the get-up in the back of his car - along with the REPLICA Civil War musket. Keep in mind, this musket did not work. Did not even shoot blanks. Straight out replica.

Well, the cops were called. His parents were called. and thanks to the same Zero Tolerance policy, he was not suspended...he was EXPELLED!

Eventually, after hiring a lawyer and fighting it, he was let back in. Thanks in a large part to his teachers coming to his defense.

The way the laws are written are 100% stupid. They need work.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Kay back in 03 my youngest got in a little trouble in school.
A teacher who was pushing her button all year got in her face and as Christine was walking away she said under her breath that she wanted to punch the teacher.
Well the teacher heard her and next I knew she was suspended and facing a hearing with the president of the school district where they would decide if they where going to expel her.
First words out of his mouth where "after 9/11 and columbine we have to take incidents like this very seriously and deal with them accordingly".
To make a long story short, I got her a 1 month suspension with a tutor paid for by the school district.
The real fun for me was the meeting the next day I had with the schools principal, the teacher who got in her face, and her guidance counselor who I had grown up with:rolleyes:
I understand schools taking a harder stance on violence after columbine, what 9/11 has to do with it is beyond me.
Thing is the schools are treating all incidents no matter how Innocent as major events that require harsh discipline.

So to answer your question, yes it has.

I had a spanish "teacher" JUST like the idiot "teacher" Christine had. She went to some teaching seminar and LITERALLY, INTENTIONALLY, went OUT OF HER WAY to harass the students! AND SHE TOLD US! One day she had the principle come to all of her classes and ask who was vandalizing HER car! They SINGLED HER OUT! Gee, I wonder why!!!!!

If she did that TODAY, in that area, she woud probably be KILLED! FIRST rule to avoiding 9/11 and columbine? AVOID THE HATRED! DON'T ENCOURAGE it!

Steve

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lanta99

15 years ago

Sheesh, when I was in Elementary School, a kid threw a knife and no one did anything...

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KimW

15 years ago

When I was in Junior High (they call it middle school now, I don't have a clue why), we all had pocket knives. It was never a big deal.

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

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TimPhelan

15 years ago

I feel for you Tina. I also have delt with most of the issues you mention. Just about all actually. Bipolar, suicidal, hospitalization, probation... It's tough and your son surely wasn't treated right. My daughter had problems at her school because of mistakes by the school and I ended up suing the school district.

Tim

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

I just spent two years dealing with the school system with my son. He wound up in court with charges multiple times and ended up on probation after a few weeks in juvenile detention where his nose was broken by another kid. I could tell you horror stories but I won't. Suffice it to say that not one time did he actually hit another student but he was charged anyway.

He ended up in probation for causing problems at school for the day he was taken out by ambulance for being suicidal. Not only did we go through a hospitalization period and all that entails with a 14 year old boy, then we had to go to court yet again because his behavior disrupted school.

My son had bipolar disorder but how much of the problem was exacerbated by the way the school treated him? He finally refused to go to school anymore at all and moved back with his father. I want him to go to school but I can't blame him, either.

Tina

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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Typical in this country...

We make laws because of twisted, demented people which do nothing to deter them, but do everything to otherwise law-abiding people. This is a perfect example of mindless bureaucracy.

I completely understand the need to protect kids in school, but the law makers need to actually THINK before rushing these "feel-good" laws into effect.

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HeySal

15 years ago

Sure am glad I went to school when I did. I'd still be in jail for that jacknife I had in kindergarten. No peeling veggies on the way home.

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SeattlePurple

15 years ago

I brought my cubscout pocket knife to school a few times when I was a kid lol. This was in the 90s but I'd always have it playing in the yard and put it in my jacket pocket, go to school, reach in my pocket, and turn white as a ghost:p

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KenThompson

15 years ago

I was in the 6th grade in 68, and my homeroom was the science classroom. I'll
never forget Mr. Gallagher, the science teacher. Well, one day before homeroom,
I quickly made and ignited a stink bomb. Worked like gangbusters. I had no idea
how well it would work. The entire second floor, about a dozen classrooms, had
to open all windows.

So what happened?

Meek and mild-mannered Mr. Gallagher said, "Kenneth, please don't do that again."
I didn't.

Today? Can't imagine what my fate would be.

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bhola badshah

15 years ago

this the media , tv, dramas movies showing bad as good. teaching violence and allot of bad things

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Said it before, I'll say it again.

I will never send my children to public school. Ever.

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Michael Oksa 15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Said it before, I'll say it again.

I will never send my children to public school. Ever.

But then how will they meet my cousin???

Let me explain.

I was at a funeral Friday, and my cousin was there. I asked him what he does, and it turns out he teaches high school science and math.

I then asked him where, thinking he was still in Wisconsin somewhere. Nope. He teaches in...of all places...Kent, Washington! As soon as he said that I thought of you, C, right away.

Doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand, but thought I'd mention it.

All the best,
Michael
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- CDarklock 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Michael Oksa
  
  He teaches in...of all places...Kent, Washington! As soon as he said that I thought of you, C, right away.
  
  Well, if it helps... we're just in a hotel, and not planning on living here long-term at all.
  
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Kurt

15 years ago

The "fault" is on those that take everything by the letter of the law, instead of the intent/spirit of the law. The intent clearly was not to arrest 6 year old girls "packing" a cub scout knife.

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locpic63

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

The "fault" is on those that take everything by the letter of the law, instead of the intent/spirit of the law. The intent clearly was not to arrest 6 year old girls "packing" a cub scout knife.

This is correct since I doubt that Zachary was a "Girl".

Locpic63

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Six-year-old sent to reform school for bringing a "weapon" (Cub Scout camping cutlery) to school - Boing Boing

Absolutely unbelievable! And the parents, according to a new report, plan to "attend the school board meeting tomorrow and ask for the decision to be reversed".

I'd be moving out of that school district - clearly it's run by imbeciles. If they thought the knife could be used as "weapon" why not just confiscate it during the school day and return it to the kid at the end of the day with a lecture?

Maybe because that wouldn't get media attention?

kay

Keep in mind, that this happened about 40 YEARS ago! A "teacher" STOLE an apple corer from me once, when I used it to cut an apple! I could have created LOTS of more dangerous weapons if I wanted just from things lying around, and it was NOT sharp.

Anyway, I never forgave her. She is probably dead now but, if I ever saw her again, I wouldn't even say hi, or hold the door open.

Steve

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wallsinn.com

Banned 15 years ago

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Michael Motley 15 years ago

Originally Posted by wallsinn.com

when i was in school i used to keep knife in my pocket it was basically a charm for me

when i was in school, you weren't cool unless you had a buck knife with a belt sheath. everyone had one.
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Indiana

Banned 15 years ago

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Indiana

BREAKING NEWS: New York Eagle Scout Suspended From School for 20 Days for Keeping Pocketknife in Car...
Quote

BREAKING NEWS: New York Eagle Scout Suspended From School for 20 Days for Keeping Pocketknife in Car...

[link to www.foxnews.com]

Tuesday, October 13, 2009

A 17-year-old Eagle Scout in upstate New York has been barred from stepping foot on school grounds for 20 days -- for keeping a 2-inch pocketknife locked in a survival kit in his car.

Matthew Whalen, a senior at Lansingburgh Senior High School, says he follows the Boy Scout motto and is always prepared, stocking his car with a sleeping bag, water, a ready-to-eat meal -- and the knife, which was given to him by his grandfather, a police chief in a nearby town.

But Lansingburgh High has a zero-tolerance policy, and when school officials discovered that Whalen kept his knife locked in his car, he says, they suspended him for five days -- and then tacked on an additional 15 after a hearing.

[link to www.foxnews.com]

USA...loses "plot"....Mmmmm...Indy

Hate to admit this, but that's my home town.
I know the school and of the boys family.
Though I think this is stupid and embarrassing for the school, I can kinda understand it in a small way.
Lansingburgh high is one of the two high schools (Troy high is the other) in Troy that has police officers assigned to the school.
The other two high schools are private schools, Catholic Central and Emma Willard and don't have or need a police presence.

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

On Tuesday, Zach's school said he can go back to school today. They also changed the policy to a 3 to 5 day suspension instead of 45 days at a reform school, however the new rule only applies to 1st graders and kindergarteners. But it is a step in the right direction.

I'm sure the attention they received played a big part. And that's why I think it's a good thing that media focuses on zero tolerance policies. The pressure can get school boards to wisen up to some degree.

All the best,
Michael

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Lambert Klein

15 years ago

Yes, I seen that on the news. Seems crazy in this case... That boy seem pretty smart for only six.

Then we have all these aldults driving around making calls and texting endangering themselves and others.

Something's screwed up...

Lambert

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HeySal

15 years ago

Matthew Whalen, a senior at Lansingburgh Senior High School, says he follows the Boy Scout motto and is always prepared, stocking his car with a sleeping bag, water, a ready-to-eat meal -- and the knife, which was given to him by his grandfather, a police chief in a nearby town.

I hope he turns around and sues them ****less for making him disassemble a survival kit. There is no way in hell that the school can ever guarantee that a survival kit won't be a necessity at any place or any time -- they just messed with a TAUGHT survival practice and should be slapped crapless for even thinking of it.

I can highly imagine a scenereo:
one of those officials are in a life threatening situation during an unexpected disaster. A knife would cut him free from certain doom, and here comes this kid, sees who it is -- and says "Gee, I'd like to help you, Dude, but um..... I'd hate to end up in reform school over it. Sorry about your luck.

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Kay King

15 years ago

Unfortunately, zero tolerance often seems to equal zero IQ, too.

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Lambert Klein

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Unfortunately, zero tolerance often seems to equal zero IQ, too.

LOL really, people don't want to have to think for themseves I guess.

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HeySal 15 years ago

Originally Posted by lklein

LOL really, people don't want to have to think for themseves I guess.

More like people are not ALLOWED to think for themselves.
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- KimW 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by lklein
  
  LOL really, people don't want to have to think for themseves I guess.
  
  Originally Posted by HeySal
  
  More like people are not ALLOWED to think for themselves.
  
  Combine these two statements and you have the majority of the population.
  
  Sad.
  
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by lklein

LOL really, people don't want to have to think for themseves I guess.

It has nothing to do with thinking for themselves. It has everything to do with the liability of the school.

lets say the principal said 'oh its ok, just a cubscout' and he was wrong and this kid stabbed someone or sliced someone. Nobody ever thinks that the person that flips out at school is going to do it. When the kid at VT shot all those people, they didnt see him coming, he looked like eveyrone else that day. When the kids at columbine shot the place up, nobody thought they would do it, they looked like every other kid that day.

It wasn't until the incident was over, people were dead and/or injured that people 'noticed' things were wrong.

Do you want YOUR kid to be the one that finds out little billy boyscout is pissed off at his parents because they took away his xbox so he's going to take it out on a classmate with the only weapon he has...a boyscout utensil set.

laugh if you like but would you think its funny if your child went to this school and was the one that went to the hospital with a couple fork wounds, or a missing eye or whatever, and then who are you going to be mad at? Thats right, the same people that just kept the weapon out of school.

You can't blame the school, techincally mom and dad sent the kid to school with a possible deadly weapon. Granted it wasn't a big thing back in our day, but this isnt our day.

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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

It has nothing to do with thinking for themselves. It has everything to do with the liability of the school.

lets say the principal said 'oh its ok, just a cubscout' and he was wrong and this kid stabbed someone or sliced someone. Nobody ever thinks that the person that flips out at school is going to do it. When the kid at VT shot all those people, they didnt see him coming, he looked like eveyrone else that day. When the kids at columbine shot the place up, nobody thought they would do it, they looked like every other kid that day.

It wasn't until the incident was over, people were dead and/or injured that people 'noticed' things were wrong.

Do you want YOUR kid to be the one that finds out little billy boyscout is pissed off at his parents because they took away his xbox so he's going to take it out on a classmate with the only weapon he has...a boyscout utensil set.

laugh if you like but would you think its funny if your child went to this school and was the one that went to the hospital with a couple fork wounds, or a missing eye or whatever, and then who are you going to be mad at? Thats right, the same people that just kept the weapon out of school.

You can't blame the school, techincally mom and dad sent the kid to school with a possible deadly weapon. Granted it wasn't a big thing back in our day, but this isnt our day.

There is definitely a need for rules and safety measures. No disagreement there.

But ZERO tolerance in EVERY case?

I don't buy that 'no time' stuff. Make the time. Not all kids are alike. Some deserve to be expelled. Some simply need to be educated.

Could you imagine sending a 6 year old to a reform school? He'd come out worse than when he went in.

Not all schools are "inner-city", "over populated", loaded with delinquents type of schools. Blanket laws like that hurt more than they help. Look how much time was wasted in this 6 year olds case. And how much embarrassment to the school and family. It could have been handled with educating the boy/family, and maybe a short suspension.

Like I stated earlier - these laws are designed to simply make people feel better, like their politicians and school district are protecting your kids. But it's all self-interest.

And liability? Well, hate to say, but a zero tolerance policy will only protect the school in that one type of situation. Nowadays, a kid falls from a swing, breaks a limb and the school gets sued anyway.

So I guess we should take down all the playgrounds then. You know - zero injury policy. Make all the kids sit all day with their hands folded

Where do you draw the line?

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seasoned

15 years ago

Yeah, it reminds me of ST TNG, the episode where wesley falls into a little nursury box, on another planet, for plants, and the girl SCREAMS in HORROR! she keeps saying "PLEASE NOT NOW! PLEASE NOT HERE!" And along come two people that try to casually poison him, to kill him.

It seems that it is AGAINST THE LAW to hurt young plants, and they have only ONE penalty! DEATH! Picard and his crew try to play along, but an alien race or something that the inhabitants consider their GOD, and that alien race PREVENTS the away team from transporting back, when they realize that they are to be FORCED to retroactively submit to laws that would do them permanent harm. Only after will mentions that justice can't be judged in such absolute terms does the "GOD" allow them to transport.

Aspirin, for example, is RARELY deadly. In absolute terms, an ORANGE could be considered a DRUG! A POPSICLE could be! And knives are not the only weapons one could wield.

Steve

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Dan C. Rinnert

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

It seems that it is AGAINST THE LAW to hurt young plants, and they have only ONE penalty! DEATH!

It was worse than that. They had random punishment zones. The area with the plants just happened to be the random punishment zone that day. Would have been nice of the other kids to warn Wesley ahead of time.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

It was worse than that. They had random punishment zones. The area with the plants just happened to be the random punishment zone that day. Would have been nice of the other kids to warn Wesley ahead of time.

YEAH, THAT is how they could get away with the one size fits all punishment. I LOVE(sarc) how everyone acted like HE should know the rules, and HE said "It's OK! I'M FINE!"! But HEY, they SHOULD have learned about the laws, etc....

Steve

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Schools dont have time to place 0 tolerance on a case by case basis.

Have you been in a public school lately? Understaffed, over populated, kids talking to teachers in a manner that would have gotten my teeth knocked out.

If this is anyone's fault...im sorry to say its the parent's.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

exactly where are you going to draw the line, because you'll only draw it in the wrong place once and then mothers and fathers will crucify you if their child gets hurt.

Do YOU want to be the guy that draws that line putting your career on the line for a child who's mental health and homelife you know nothing about?

Well if you dont want to do it, what makes you think mr. local school principal wants to step up to the plate.

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Dan C. Rinnert

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

exactly where are you going to draw the line, because you'll only draw it in the wrong place once and then mothers and fathers will crucify you if their child gets hurt.

Well, then, do we need to ban kids from driving to school? They might "lose it" and run someone over, or even ram through a crowd of people.

What about biology class? No more scalpels and stuff for dissections? Those could be weapons in the wrong hands.

Art class? Well, scissors can be dangerous. X-Acto knives too. Needles. Pins.

Shop class? All those tools are just waiting to be turned into deadly weapons.

In gym classes, they'll need to get rid of weights. Someone could drop one of those on someone's foot or head. Ropes need to go too.

Chemistry classes will have to go too. There are all sorts of dangerous chemicals there!

Pens and pencils can be dangerous too. Belts and shoelaces could be used to strangle someone. Ditto for purse straps. Brown bagged lunches will have to go; who knows what kids might be sneaking in there! Poisons? Anthrax? Butter knives? Toast that's too well-done and cut on a diagonal?

Ban homework too. Can't have kids coming back to school every day with who knows what in their backpacks.

Good grief. Schools are a death trap.

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Kay King

15 years ago

Many of the ridiculous problems we see seem to stem from the "what if" mentality.

What if this child who seems to be a normal kid, never a problem, etc decides to use his fork or camping knife in the "kit" and stabs someone....what if he happens to hit the only place on the body where a short, camping knife would be deadly?

Then do we claim next any kid with a wooden popsicle stick is dangerous because he might make one end into a point....and where does it stop? How bright is it to confiscate a small pair of nail clippers from a passenger on a plane...or from a kid in school?

What if we stopped creating scenarios in our minds and look at facts? Wouldn't that make more sense?

What if we looked at it realistically - and said this is a normal kid, never a problem, excited about his new Cub Scout camping utensil....instead of carrying everything in our imagination to the worst possible scenario.

I can understand zero tolerance - I can't understand total lack of common sense in letting such a situation go this far. I wouldn't want my kid in a school run by people without the sense god gave a goose.

kay

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Dan C. Rinnert 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

What if we stopped creating scenarios in our minds and look at facts? Wouldn't that make more sense?

These things all end up in the hands of politicians--whether they are local, state or national. And, politics generally is more about doing things that make people feel warm and safe and fuzzy inside than it is about real world results or principles.
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

What if we looked at it realistically - and said this is a normal kid, never a problem, excited about his new Cub Scout camping utensil....instead of carrying everything in our imagination to the worst possible scenario.

I can understand zero tolerance - I can't understand total lack of common sense in letting such a situation go this far. I wouldn't want my kid in a school run by people without the sense god gave a goose.

kay

And again, lets say you've got two kids, neither one of them has technically gotten in trouble, but one of them is obviously a little psychopath in training. Who's going to be the one to tell the parents that they have a future mass murderer on their hands with absolutely no proof?

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

Well, then, do we need to ban kids from driving to school? They might "lose it" and run someone over, or even ram through a crowd of people.

What about biology class? No more scalpels and stuff for dissections? Those could be weapons in the wrong hands.

Art class? Well, scissors can be dangerous. X-Acto knives too. Needles. Pins.

Shop class? All those tools are just waiting to be turned into deadly weapons.

In gym classes, they'll need to get rid of weights. Someone could drop one of those on someone's foot or head. Ropes need to go too.

Chemistry classes will have to go too. There are all sorts of dangerous chemicals there!

Pens and pencils can be dangerous too. Belts and shoelaces could be used to strangle someone. Ditto for purse straps. Brown bagged lunches will have to go; who knows what kids might be sneaking in there! Poisons? Anthrax? Butter knives? Toast that's too well-done and cut on a diagonal?

Ban homework too. Can't have kids coming back to school every day with who knows what in their backpacks.

Good grief. Schools are a death trap.

So they dont need to be bringing weapons in from teh outside, they have enough there.

But how are you going to have any give on something like this?

Oh its ok for billy to bring a edged weapon to school, but not suzy. So what are you going to do when suzy's parents storm the office wanting to know why there kid isnt good enough to be able to bring in HER knife or whatever...you let little billy do it? Who's going to be the one to say 'well suzy seems like she's a little nuts, so we dont really trust her' Can you imagine the outrage that would explode across teh front page of every news site in the world almost immediately?

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Killer Joe

15 years ago

Being that the utensil actually had a knife blade included (according to a picture shown on the news), and the remote chance of having a school 'bully' take the object away and perhaps take stupidity to a higher level and actually hurt someone, the teacher should have taken the object away.

And common sense would be for the teacher to send a note home with the boy that if they want the object back the parents should show up and take it with them.

That way the object is removed from harms way and the kid gets to keep his prize.

But alas, common sense is a rare commodity these days.

KJ

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

Being that the utensil actually had a knife blade included (according to a picture shown on the news), and the remote chance of having a school 'bully' take the object away and perhaps take stupidity to a higher level and actually hurt someone, the teacher should have taken the object away.

And common sense would be for the teacher to send a note home with the boy that if they want the object back the parents should show up and take it with them.

That way the object is removed from harms way and the kid gets to keep his prize.

But alas, common sense is a rare commodity these days.

KJ

And here's a point i've made before. You're right, common sense is a rare commodity, but why is it the teachers job to be that common sense? people cry about the government telling them how to raise their children, but they dont do it themselves.

Should the teacher have to tell the parents HEY DONT SEND YOUR KIDS TO SCHOOL WITH A KNIFE? People keep pointing at the teachers and their lack of common sense but seem to forget its the parents that let the kid walk out the door to school with a weapon in his hand in a post 9/11 - columbine country.

What parent in this country doesnt know by now that if you send your kid to school with a knife, he will probably get sent home?

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Kay King

15 years ago

But how are you going to have any give on something like this?

It's not "give" - it is using common sense somewhere along the line of authority.

The teacher takes the "implement" and the kid to the office. Somewhere there is a person in authority who makes the decision to blindly follow protocol or to make an informed decision.

I understand keeping the implement until the parent comes to pick it up. I don't understand blindly following the rules and calling the cops on a young child.

Truth is, many of the school policies are designed only to protect the school authorities against the media and liability. So a big deal is made over a Cub Scout implement (both of my sons had these same kits) but the anti-social or aggressive behavior of an older child is often ignored....and those are the kids who bring the guns to school one time.

No easy answers - but knee jerk reactions don't make sense. Doesn't it teach children to blindly follow protocol rather than to make informed decisions?

kay

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

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MissTerraK

15 years ago

A world gone mad? How about a world that's been mad for a long time!

I'll give you a true example regarding my son who graduated in 2007.

When he was in the second grade in the school year 1996/1997, I recieved a call from his teacher and the principal that we needed to talk about Brandon.

When I got there, I was appalled, they were telling me my child, my little boy had ADHD! Attention deficifit hyperactivity disorder!

Can any of you men tell me you were never hyper as a young boy?

I told them I strongly diagreed, it was hard to get his attention off something that he really enjoyed doing, they replied that that was part of ADHD! Yeah right, whatever!

Anyway, I took him to his doctor and he said, no, he's just a rambunctious and a hyper boy (look at his mother) LOL and he'll out grow it!

I reported that to the principal and she told me she disagreed and wanted Brandon put on ritilan so he could be still in the class room. I repeated the doctor's dianosis. The principal then proceeded to tell me "What does your doctor know about ADHD, he probably sees a case once in a while, as I am a principal and see much more of it!"

She then handed me a physician's business card telling me all I had to do was take Bran to this doctor, tell him that she sent him and he would put Brandon on Ritalin! Needless to say, this really angered me.

So we took our son to a specialist who specialized in ADD and ADHD, which by the way was not covered by our insurance, and he concluded the same, Brandon was just a boy and he would out grow it.

I then asked him to write his diagnosis on a prescription pad to give to the school as they didn't believe his primary care physicians diagnosis and he did...

Let me share with you what it said...To Whom it may concern, Brandon does not have ADHD as 90% of my patients do not! He is just a pain in the a**, deal with it! Then his beautiful wonderful signature.

I thought that would be the end of it, however, he brought home negative notes every day, and got suspended from school atleast once a month! Now I had truly had it!

I went to the library and read books, I bought books, I did my homework and then called the Superintendant of the schools and he called a board of education meeting with the teacher, the principal and the parents! I was truly intimidated! But once I heard what was being said about my son, something reared up inside of me and I actually interupted and gave them what for!

I read excerpts from a book entitled "Strong Willed or Emotional Child" and the clincher was when I read the page on kinetic learners from the book "Children and How they Learn"!

Ironically, under the description of a kinetic learner were the exact same descriptions on the hand out they gave me describing a child with ADHD! Can you just see "Harper Valley PTA" Yeah that was me!

Dr. Green, the school district superintendant stood up and gave me a standing ovation and made it a requirement that every teacher read those two books! And better yet, one year later was called and asked if I would come and work for the school district helping the challenged students who were a tad bit slow in some subjects, to tutor them!

God is awesome! Whoops, another epic novel

!

But Brandon graduated highshcool with honors and on the A&B honor roll every time, has been in collage 2 years for graphic Design and sold two logos already!

But my point is the world has gone mad decades ago, and still continues to progress every year!
MissTerraK

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

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MissTerraK

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Good for you! I had many a battle with the schools between all three of my children. Mine did have actual diagnoses but that is besides the point when it comes to the schools. Some of those people are complete idiots and some of them think they are sitting at the right hand of God.

I actually had the school psychologist tell me that the three psychiatrists (among others) that diagnosed my son were wrong. I became quite the banshee in that meeting, let me tell you!

To top things off, did anyone here know that if your child has a learning disabliity then he's entitled to accomodations in education and an in individual plan but if he has a mental illness diagnosis, that is "emotional disability" and is not covered by the same rules? Crazy stuff.

Tina

Yeah, they tried that one on Brandon too, but when the dude came out to test Bran, he said Bran had an Emotional IQ of 126 and most 2nd graders were at a 119! LOL!
MissTerraK

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It's not "give" - it is using common sense somewhere along the line of authority.

they have a 0 tolerance policy. Its not up for debate.

The teacher takes the "implement" and the kid to the office. Somewhere there is a person in authority who makes the decision to blindly follow protocol or to make an informed decision.

but you can't pick and choose. Everyone has to be equal

I understand keeping the implement until the parent comes to pick it up. I don't understand blindly following the rules and calling the cops on a young child.

many people in the columbine area probably would have agreed with you right up until the day those two young children walked into the school with a bag of guns

Truth is, many of the school policies are designed only to protect the school authorities against the media and liability. So a big deal is made over a Cub Scout implement (both of my sons had these same kits) but the anti-social or aggressive behavior of an older child is often ignored....and those are the kids who bring the guns to school one time.

As well they should. The school has to protect itself, or the next time a levy comes around, guess who's paying for it...you.

No easy answers - but knee jerk reactions don't make sense. Doesn't it teach children to blindly follow protocol rather than to make informed decisions?

kay

This isnt a case for informed decisions. If you make any other decision than '0 tolerance' then you are opening yourself up to lawsuits.

I understand what your saying, and agree with it to a certain point. My point is that you can't play favorites.

Lets say you and I have a kid that goes to the same school. My kid is normal, your kid, while never really being 'caught' has a reputation for beating up others. They both are in scouts and take their utensil to school and the school has this sliding scale you would like to see. My kid goes to show and tell, your kid goes to the office and you're called. What are you going to say when you get called to school over this and your kid tells you that my kid didn't have a problem, then the principal says thats because your child is too violent. That is a lawsuit screaming to happen right there

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

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sanjid112

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Michael, that's the perfect argument against zero tolerance policies.

Perhaps we are debating the wrong thing here, though. I agree that zero tolerance policies are terrible and do more harm than good. I also agree with Michael that there are a lot of parents whose first thought is to sue the school.

What this country needs is an overhaul of our legal system so that lawsuits can't be served so easily. Some things are absolutely ridiculous. You shouldn't be allowed to sue the school for something they have no control over or no way of knowing. Granted, if some teacher knows a child has a weapon and does nothing, then he should be responsible or partly so. Otherwise, it sucks but we need to stop making the school responsible for everything and put some responsibility back on ourselves and our children.

If you have taught your child right, they should have a clue. I'm tired of people taking all responsibility off children and then wondering why they do the things that they do. Just because they are kids doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taking personal responsibility for their actions, particularly when older. But, they learn this from parents who blame their credit scores on the credit card companies and their problems on the government.

Tina

Agree with you Tina. We need to teach our kids to take personal responsibility, so when they're growing up, they won't do something stupid without knowing the consequences.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

but you can't pick and choose. Everyone has to be equal

GOD what a STUPID statement. One person I met an airport put this real well.... Any brain surgeon can sweep the floor and do a janitor's work, but not many janitors can do brain surgery. People AREN'T equal in every way!

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

This isnt a case for informed decisions. If you make any other decision than '0 tolerance' then you are opening yourself up to lawsuits.

Shouldn't the goal be to SOLVE THE PROBLEM!?!?!?

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I understand what your saying, and agree with it to a certain point. My point is that you can't play favorites.

OOOPS! That means this whole website should shut down, etc..... Most people here use a credit card in some way, and that means TRUST! I won't trust the average felon!

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Lets say you and I have a kid that goes to the same school. My kid is normal, your kid, while never really being 'caught' has a reputation for beating up others. They both are in scouts and take their utensil to school and the school has this sliding scale you would like to see. My kid goes to show and tell, your kid goes to the office and you're called. What are you going to say when you get called to school over this and your kid tells you that my kid didn't have a problem, then the principal says thats because your child is too violent. That is a lawsuit screaming to happen right there

Then there is a problem with the COURTS! Back to my felon example again!

Steve

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

GOD what a STUPID statement. One person I met an airport put this real well.... Any brain surgeon can sweep the floor and do a janitor's work, but not many janitors can do brain surgery. People AREN'T equal in every way!

Not the same context, take your rittalin before you reply

Shouldn't the goal be to SOLVE THE PROBLEM!?!?!?

the problem isnt being caused by schools, its not going to be fixed by schools

OOOPS! That means this whole website should shut down, etc..... Most people here use a credit card in some way, and that means TRUST! I won't trust the average felon!

again..rittalin is your friend.

Then there is a problem with the COURTS! Back to my felon example again!

Steve

and so until that problem with the courts is fixed, you're expecting the schools and the children in them to bare the brunt of this problem? Yeah thats a good plan.

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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

There was a big article today in our local paper discussing how the Zero Tolerance policy doesn't work. That in fact, some studies show it actually makes things worse.

Michael - I am actually surprised that you of all people say:

"they have a 0 tolerance policy. Its not up for debate."

EVERYTHING is up for debate. If they can make something a law, they can also change the laws. The only way to change idiotic laws IS to debate them.

You can only throw Columbine around so much. That was for sure a tragedy, but don't try to convince me that a Zero Tolerance policy would have stopped that. In fact, many places (don't know about Colorado) already HAD zero tolerance policies for guns back then.

I think this is one of those debate that simply don't have a simple, standard answer. Zero Tolerance is proving that already.

Mike

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

There was a big article today in our local paper discussing how the Zero Tolerance policy doesn't work. That in fact, some studies show it actually makes things worse.

Michael - I am actually surprised that you of all people say:

"they have a 0 tolerance policy. Its not up for debate."

EVERYTHING is up for debate. If they can make something a law, they can also change the laws. The only way to change idiotic laws IS to debate them.

You can only throw Columbine around so much. That was for sure a tragedy, but don't try to convince me that a Zero Tolerance policy would have stopped that. In fact, many places (don't know about Colorado) already HAD zero tolerance policies for guns back then.

I think this is one of those debate that simply don't have a simple, standard answer. Zero Tolerance is proving that already.

Mike

But a 0 tolerance policy isn't a law..its a policy. That is something that was put forth by the school district, not the courts. Its like a dress policy, thats the school district setting down a mandate.

And yeah, a 0 tolerance policy would have probably stopped columbine. Those kids didnt just get up one day and decide to light up their classmates. They were picked on for a while before it got to that point. You'll notice lately all the stuff you hear about 0 tolerance policies for bullying?...thats where it all pretty much came from. It wasnt marilyn manson or video games, it was the jock crowd picking on the weaker crowd, well you dont have to be a football player to fire a rifle.

And zero tolerance appears to be working, people are just mad because its not just catching those that would do harm, but those that wouldnt. ITs called a 0 tolerance policy for a reason.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

And yeah, a 0 tolerance policy would have probably stopped columbine. Those kids didnt just get up one day and decide to light up their classmates. They were picked on for a while before it got to that point. You'll notice lately all the stuff you hear about 0 tolerance policies for bullying?...thats where it all pretty much came from. It wasnt marilyn manson or video games, it was the jock crowd picking on the weaker crowd, well you dont have to be a football player to fire a rifle.

And zero tolerance appears to be working, people are just mad because its not just catching those that would do harm, but those that wouldnt. ITs called a 0 tolerance policy for a reason.

How do you figure it is working? There wasn't that much trouble BEFORE columbine, and it hasn't decreased after.

And it probably WOULDN'T have stopped it. There are a LOT of ways to hurt people. You can't do a pat down search on EVERYONE, and metal detectors won't pickup plastics, ceramiics, and various composits.

And HEY, it didn't work at the airports, and hasn't worked in many places.

Steve

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Kay King

15 years ago

The fellow who shot students on the college campus had a history of problems that had not been addressed - because they didn't involved a zero tolerance "item".

Sad truth is we can't prevent all the bad things from happening - we don't have that control and you can't crucify someone for what they might do in the future.

But we need balance or we'll raise another generation that expects to be protected from "bad stuff" and looks for someone to blame when life doesn't work out for them. We can make people accountable for what they do without behaving like gestapo with 7 yr olds.

What we have too often is "zero tolerance" without thought or reasoning in a society that is increasingly intolerant and judgmental.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

The fellow who shot students on the college campus had a history of problems that had not been addressed - because they didn't involved a zero tolerance "item".

Sad truth is we can't prevent all the bad things from happening - we don't have that control and you can't crucify someone for what they might do in the future.

But we need balance or we'll raise another generation that expects to be protected from "bad stuff" and looks for someone to blame when life doesn't work out for them. We can make people accountable for what they do without behaving like gestapo with 7 yr olds.

What we have too often is "zero tolerance" without thought or reasoning in a society that is increasingly intolerant and judgmental.

We dont need balance, we need parents. If parents did their job, there would be no need for 0 tolerance anything at schools because kids would hopefully have better sense.

We also need parents who arent chomping at the bit to sue someone else for their own parenting inadequacies. Until that happens, there is no better answer than 0 tolerance for every single person.

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Kay King

15 years ago

Has there ever been a time in any school where there wasn't a 0 tolerance for bringing guns to school? Of course not.

My cousin's husband was the teacher who bled to death in the hallway at Columbine waiting for help to arrive - while the police stayed outside hour after hour.

The perpetrators had announced their intentions - and no one took it seriously. Other students knew about threats but didn't report them. No 0 tolerance rule would have stopped that attack.

But, isn't it odd that requiring school uniforms might have prevented it? If not allowed to wear the sweeping long goth coat in the hallways, the weapons wouldn't have been so easy to conceal or so quickly accessible.

It's so easy to find answers...afterward.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Has there ever been a time in any school where there wasn't a 0 tolerance for bringing guns to school? Of course not.

In my school, people had them in their truck racks. I remember bringing a black powder weapon to school.

My cousin's husband was the teacher who bled to death in the hallway at Columbine waiting for help to arrive - while the police stayed outside hour after hour.

The perpetrators had announced their intentions - and no one took it seriously. Other students knew about threats but didn't report them. No 0 tolerance rule would have stopped that attack.

But, isn't it odd that requiring school uniforms might have prevented it? If not allowed to wear the sweeping long goth coat in the hallways, the weapons wouldn't have been so easy to conceal or so quickly accessible.

It's so easy to find answers...afterward.

Or just stopping bullying would have been a better way to stop it. There's a video out, probably on youtube now that shows this highschool kid, he's wearing your standard polo shirt and jeans, a decent outfit for school. They have this kid unload everything he has on him. He pulls out probably close to 12 guns, including a shotgun down his pantleg, a handfull of knives, brass knuckles..etc. Its amazing how much this kind takes out of his belt, pockets and under his shirt. And if i remember correctly those kids brought most of their guns to school in book bags, and only had a rifle each under their coats.

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Michael Oksa 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Has there ever been a time in any school where there wasn't a 0 tolerance for bringing guns to school? Of course not.

Sorry, but when I was in high school, hunting weapons were allowed to be in students cars. As long as they obeyed state law for the weapons (in a case, and unloaded) - they were fine.

They could be in gun racks, the trunk, the front seat, or wherever.

While my school didn't have one, I knew of other schools that had GUN CLUBS. And they would meet after school. Granted this was more in a hunting/boy scout setting.

So, there have been times when schools have NOT had zero-tolerance policies on guns.

SIDE NOTE: My youngest has a bit of a cough today, and took cough drops to school. I let that happen with no problem, BUT I was concerned about the school's zero-tolerance drug policy.

All the best,
Michael
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

How do you figure it is working? There wasn't that much trouble BEFORE columbine, and it hasn't decreased after.

And it probably WOULDN'T have stopped it. There are a LOT of ways to hurt people. You can't do a pat down search on EVERYONE, and metal detectors won't pickup plastics, ceramiics, and various composits.

And HEY, it didn't work at the airports, and hasn't worked in many places.

Steve

You do realize 0 tolerance isn't just for weapons right?

Lets say we had 0 tolerance on bullying, as we do now, BEFORE columbine. Do you think that the 2 individuals at the center of the columbine massacre may have had a different outlook on their students if they weren't getting wedgies after gym class every day?

It works at airports NOW. You cant say 'oh it didnt work' for a time it wasnt even being implemented.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

You do realize 0 tolerance isn't just for weapons right?

Lets say we had 0 tolerance on bullying, as we do now

AHEM....Have you been watching the news? WATCH IT!!!!!!! They have been giving this lip service since I was a little kid! Based on old movies and books, they were doing it HUNDREDS of years before that! Based on ancient history, THOUSANDS of years!

SORRY, I happen to know a bit about this! And it is STILL going on! BESIDES, I was talking about your talk about weapons anyway.

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

It works at airports NOW. You cant say 'oh it didnt work' for a time it wasnt even being implemented.

AGAIN, WATCH THE NEWS!!!!!!!!!! I remember the security systems when I was a LITTLE KID over 40 years ago! OH, GRANTED they didn't work TOO well. I went through a metal detector with a huge vise wrench. My father LAUGHED when we landed and he reminded me about it! But TODAY, I carry metal through ALL THE TIME! And the XRAY machines now apparently don't work as well as the old ones. People used to seal up film, etc... to avoid exposure! But they DID have them!

Steve

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

AHEM....Have you been watching the news? WATCH IT!!!!!!! They have been giving this lip service since I was a little kid! Based on old movies and books, they were doing it HUNDREDS of years before that! Based on ancient history, THOUSANDS of years!

SORRY, I happen to know a bit about this! And it is STILL going on! BESIDES, I was talking about your talk about weapons anyway.

AGAIN, WATCH THE NEWS!!!!!!!!!! I remember the security systems when I was a LITTLE KID over 40 years ago! OH, GRANTED they didn't work TOO well. I went through a metal detector with a huge vise wrench. My father LAUGHED when we landed and he reminded me about it! But TODAY, I carry metal through ALL THE TIME! And the XRAY machines now apparently don't work as well as the old ones. People used to seal up film, etc... to avoid exposure! But they DID have them!

Steve

this isnt 40 years ago.

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seasoned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

this isnt 40 years ago.

If you are talking about something that happened OVER 40 years ago, then WHAT IS YOUR POINT!?!?!? Aren't we supposed to be talking about things that happen NOW!?!?!? YOU said that they DIDN'T have those systems when I was a kid, and I said YES THEY DID!

AND, in reference to what you may say next about WELL, that was 40 years ago, I DID speak of NOW also! I am exposed to these regulations every 3 weeks! My last time was about 3 weeks ago, and the next time will be TOMORROW! There are as many holes NOW as there were FORTY years ago!

Steve
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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

But a 0 tolerance policy isn't a law..its a policy. That is something that was put forth by the school district, not the courts. Its like a dress policy, thats the school district setting down a mandate.

And yeah, a 0 tolerance policy would have probably stopped columbine. Those kids didnt just get up one day and decide to light up their classmates. They were picked on for a while before it got to that point. You'll notice lately all the stuff you hear about 0 tolerance policies for bullying?...thats where it all pretty much came from. It wasnt marilyn manson or video games, it was the jock crowd picking on the weaker crowd, well you dont have to be a football player to fire a rifle.

And zero tolerance appears to be working, people are just mad because its not just catching those that would do harm, but those that wouldnt. ITs called a 0 tolerance policy for a reason.

You're splitting hairs Michael - Laws, policies. Stupid ones are stupid ones and either can be debated or changed.

I understand about bullying. I was bullied for a full year in the eighth grade. But seeing as this debate is more about how the zero tolerance POLICIES for having a knife, my driving point is how putting a 6 year old in a reform school environment would have been not only stupid, but more than likely, detrimental.

I am not advocating the allowance of weapons in school, or of bullying. I am advocating that people need to use common sense - starting with the parents (the parents of the 6 year old should NOT have allowed him to take that utensil to school) all the way through to our law makers, who seem to think that everyone is the same and should be treated the same.

And I really don't know why you think that simply having these policies would deter lawsuits. People sue over anything. There's an abundance of lawyers who would take these cases.

Common sense isn't just for parents. There's an old saying - It takes a village to raise a child. No matter HOW good you are as a parent, you CAN NOT see/know every detail of your childs life 100% of the time- hence the schools, teachers, etc. also need to be responsible and use common sense.

Like I said - there's no black and white here.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

You're splitting hairs Michael - Laws, policies. Stupid ones are stupid ones and either can be debated or changed.

I understand about bullying. I was bullied for a full year in the eighth grade. But seeing as this debate is more about how the zero tolerance POLICIES for having a knife, my driving point is how putting a 6 year old in a reform school environment would have been not only stupid, but more than likely, detrimental.

I am not advocating the allowance of weapons in school, or of bullying. I am advocating that people need to use common sense - starting with the parents (the parents of the 6 year old should NOT have allowed him to take that utensil to school) all the way through to our law makers, who seem to think that everyone is the same and should be treated the same.

And I really don't know why you think that simply having these policies would deter lawsuits. People sue over anything. There's an abundance of lawyers who would take these cases.

Common sense isn't just for parents. There's an old saying - It takes a village to raise a child. No matter HOW good you are as a parent, you CAN NOT see/know every detail of your childs life 100% of the time- hence the schools, teachers, etc. also need to be responsible and use common sense.

Like I said - there's no black and white here.

And they DID use common sense. They made the policy to not allow anything that could remotely be a weapon into the school...for any reason, and it applies equally to every student.

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

And they DID use common sense. They made the policy to not allow anything that could remotely be a weapon into the school...for any reason, and it applies equally to every student.

That is NOT common sense.

If you've been paying attention, that's a big part of what we've been discussing.

"Remotely used as a weapon"? I had an ex-girlfriend that tried stabbing me with a fork a few times. Better have the kids eat with their hands.

Wait!

Hands can be USED AS WEAPONS!!!!!!

OMG!!!!

Better tape up their hands and wrap them in a few inches of foam. They can eat at home...after all, that IS the parent's responsibility.

Oh, and their legs. too. They could kick someone's teeth in. Let's strap all of them into chairs with face shields on, like Hannibal Lechter.

Think I'm kidding?

My above suggestions are just as logical as some zero-tolerance policies.

~M~

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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

That is NOT common sense.

If you've been paying attention, that's a big part of what we've been discussing.

"Remotely used as a weapon"? I had an ex-girlfriend that tried stabbing me with a fork a few times. Better have the kids eat with their hands.

Wait!

Hands can be USED AS WEAPONS!!!!!!

OMG!!!!

Better tape up their hands and wrap them in a few inches of foam. They can eat at home...after all, that IS the parent's responsibility.

Oh, and their legs. too. They could kick someone's teeth in. Let's strap all of them into chairs with face shields on, like Hannibal Lechter.

Think I'm kidding?

My above suggestions are just as logical as some zero-tolerance policies.

~M~

I suspect Mr. Motley either:

A) Has no kids of his own, or

B) Purposely fans these debates into the direction he wants. Could be for the entertainment value - I'm entertained...

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

I suspect Mr. Motley either:

A) Has no kids of his own, or

B) Purposely fans these debates into the direction he wants. Could be for the entertainment value - I'm entertained...

No, i dont have kids of my own. But when i do, i wont be so stupid as to let them go to school with a fricken knife in a school that has a 0 weapons tolerance policy then cry, whine and stomp my feet wondering why they sent my kid home

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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

No, i dont have kids of my own. But when i do, i wont be so stupid as to let them go to school with a fricken knife in a school that has a 0 weapons tolerance policy then cry, whine and stomp my feet wondering why they sent my kid home

You really are not picking up on what I have been saying, are you?

Wow.

And if you think you won't do anything stupid when you have kids, do yourself a favor...

Don't have kids.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

You really are not picking up on what I have been saying, are you?

Wow.

And if you think you won't do anything stupid when you have kids, do yourself a favor...

Don't have kids.

If you're doing something so stupid as to let your kid go to school WITH-A-WEAPON in a 0 TOLERANCE SCHOOL DISTRICT then you dont need to have kids.

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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

If you're doing something so stupid as to let your kid go to school WITH-A-WEAPON in a 0 TOLERANCE SCHOOL DISTRICT then you dont need to have kids.

Now you have convinced me...

You're being troll-like and argumentative. Probably out of desire. :rolleyes:

You are STILL missing the point. I suppose you always will.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Now you have convinced me...

You're being troll-like and argumentative. Probably out of desire. :rolleyes:

You are STILL missing the point. I suppose you always will.

No, i get the point parents will make mistakes.

but there are mistakes like 'oops i burned the oatmeal' or 'oops i forgot to pickup pb&j'

and then there are mstakes like 'oops, i let my 6 year old leave the house with an edged weapon in a school district that has already notified me multiple times that they have a 0 tolerance policy for weapons'

are you seriously trying to say that they both are the same kind of mistake that every parent makes?

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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

No, i get the point parents will make mistakes.

but there are mistakes like 'oops i burned the oatmeal' or 'oops i forgot to pickup pb&j'

and then there are mstakes like 'oops, i let my 6 year old leave the house with an edged weapon in a school district that has already notified me multiple times that they have a 0 tolerance policy for weapons'

are you seriously trying to say that they both are the same kind of mistake that every parent makes?

No. Not the point I was making at all.

Keep trying though...you'll hit it.

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Michael Oksa 15 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

No. Not the point I was making at all.

Keep trying though...you'll hit it.

Your optimism is encouraging.
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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

No, i get the point parents will make mistakes.

but there are mistakes like 'oops i burned the oatmeal' or 'oops i forgot to pickup pb&j'

and then there are mstakes like 'oops, i let my 6 year old leave the house with an edged weapon in a school district that has already notified me multiple times that they have a 0 tolerance policy for weapons'

are you seriously trying to say that they both are the same kind of mistake that every parent makes?

Good luck doing a strip search on your kid every time they leave the house.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Good luck doing a strip search on your kid every time they leave the house.

The kid was 6. If you're not able to control a 6 year old to the point that you know if they do or dont have a knife on them when they leave for school, you probably shouldn't have kids.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

The kid was 6. If you're not able to control a 6 year old to the point that you know if they do or dont have a knife on them when they leave for school, you probably shouldn't have kids.

Mike someday when you have kids you will understand how stupid that statement is.
Sure you can know every little thing they have on them when they leave the house (most times) but after they are out the door all bets are off.

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Kay King 15 years ago

If you think parents can always control what their child is doing, you probably don't have kids

It's one of life's great reality checks!
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Mike someday when you have kids you will understand how stupid that statement is.
Sure you can know every little thing they have on them when they leave the house (most times) but after they are out the door all bets are off.

Nah..that 'youll undestand someday' thing doesnt work.

While i dont have children of my own, my ex did. For 5 years i was 'daddy' to two little girls. They were 3 and 7 when we met. I got them up every morning, fixed breakfast got them ready and took them to school. I knew what color underwear they had on because i laid it out. I knew what they did at school because i talked to their teachers when i picked them up and compared notes with what the girls told me they did that day and some days when I was bored, I stopped by school just for lunch (actually it was a recon mission, but they didnt need to know that, mcdonalds makes the reason you're actually at school a moot point).

So again, if at 6 you dont know what your kid is doing and what they have on them...then you might want to rethink that whole parent thing.

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Kurt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Nah..that 'youll undestand someday' thing doesnt work.

While i dont have children of my own, my ex did. For 5 years i was 'daddy' to two little girls. They were 3 and 7 when we met. I got them up every morning, fixed breakfast got them ready and took them to school. I knew what color underwear they had on because i laid it out. I knew what they did at school because i talked to their teachers when i picked them up and compared notes with what the girls told me they did that day and some days when I was bored, I stopped by school just for lunch (actually it was a recon mission, but they didnt need to know that, mcdonalds makes the reason you're actually at school a moot point).

So again, if at 6 you dont know what your kid is doing and what they have on them...then you might want to rethink that whole parent thing.

At least we have good insight into why you are her ex.

BTW, you need to research and understand the concept of "intent" and how it may apply to this discussion.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Nah..that 'youll undestand someday' thing doesnt work.

While i dont have children of my own, my ex did. For 5 years i was 'daddy' to two little girls. They were 3 and 7 when we met. I got them up every morning, fixed breakfast got them ready and took them to school. I knew what color underwear they had on because i laid it out. I knew what they did at school because i talked to their teachers when i picked them up and compared notes with what the girls told me they did that day and some days when I was bored, I stopped by school just for lunch (actually it was a recon mission, but they didnt need to know that, mcdonalds makes the reason you're actually at school a moot point).

So again, if at 6 you dont know what your kid is doing and what they have on them...then you might want to rethink that whole parent thing.

Wow 5 years with 2 kids.
My daughter was born in 1970, my youngest step daughter is 21 and I've raised her on my own since her mother died in 02.
So for 39 years I have been raising kids in one way shape or form or another.
You know nothing grasshoper

I've done the room searches, note reading, eavesdropping, and going out to check on their where abouts when they where teens.
Lets start at the beginning.
I've changed their diapers, feed them baby food, cleaned the baby puke off my face.
Brought them to the doctors and hospital when they where sick, cleaned their bruises, and kissed their bo bo's

Let me ask you, are you still daddy to those 2 girls.
I still am with my 3 step daughters.
One's about to make me a grandfather.
Babysitting two kids for 5 years is a lot different from being a parent for life.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Nah..that 'youll undestand someday' thing doesnt work.

While i dont have children of my own, my ex did. For 5 years i was 'daddy' to two little girls. They were 3 and 7 when we met. I got them up every morning, fixed breakfast got them ready and took them to school. I knew what color underwear they had on because i laid it out. I knew what they did at school because i talked to their teachers when i picked them up and compared notes with what the girls told me they did that day and some days when I was bored, I stopped by school just for lunch (actually it was a recon mission, but they didnt need to know that, mcdonalds makes the reason you're actually at school a moot point).

So again, if at 6 you dont know what your kid is doing and what they have on them...then you might want to rethink that whole parent thing.

OH WOW! Two girls after the "terrible twos" from one person for 5 years, and you believe you LITERALLY know everything! And why only FIVE years? Do you really think their TEACHERS knew everything, or would tell YOU everything?

Still, this is like a person buying two computers from one manufacturer and thinking they knnow the specifics of EVERY manufacturer, etc...

Steve

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

OH WOW! Two girls after the "terrible twos" from one person for 5 years, and you believe you LITERALLY know everything! And why only FIVE years? Do you really think their TEACHERS knew everything, or would tell YOU everything?

Still, this is like a person buying two computers from one manufacturer and thinking they know the specifics of EVERY manufacturer, etc...

Steve

...and then not using a computer for X years, but telling those WITH computers how best use them.

SHEESH!

~M~

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seasoned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

...and then not using a computer for X years, but telling those WITH computers how best use them.

SHEESH!

~M~

YEAH, TELL ME ABOUT IT! I have INTERVIEWED people and asked them how to do something with informatica(a tool I am considered expert in, and interview people for), hooked up to TERADATA, and they start talking about how you can do it in PL/SQL!(That is for ORACLE, and NOT teradata). Or they speak of doing COMMON UNIX tasks using some script an old employer had. With things like that, I figure OH WELL, we just have to keep looking.... 8-(

It reminds me of the scene in "ST the voyage home" where SCOTTY picks up the mouse and then says "computer....?", figuring it is VOICE ACTIVATED!

Boys aren't quite like girls, and not all parents will have kids that act the same.

BESIDES, you can get weapons ANYWHERE! And teachers usually DON'T CARE!

BTW As for bullies, TEACHERS can be bullies ALSO! One teacher bullied all of her classes. They didn't hurt HER, but they REALLY hurt her car!

Steve
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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Mike someday when you have kids you will understand how stupid that statement is.
Sure you can know every little thing they have on them when they leave the house (most times) but after they are out the door all bets are off.

YEAH, TELL ME ABOUT IT! I guess he thinks he is psychic! Some people make me wonder if they were EVER together with other kids, or had thoughts of their own.

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

No, i dont have kids of my own. But when i do, i wont be so stupid as to let them go to school with a fricken knife in a school that has a 0 weapons tolerance policy then cry, whine and stomp my feet wondering why they sent my kid home

LOL

Good luck with that, seriously.

Any parent reading your statement about never doing anything stupid as a parent would know, instantly, that you're not a parent.

Have you ever seen a school handbook? Do you know all the rules? Do you really think everyone student should be treated identically? If so, let's make them ALL take football AND chess cub AND Spanish AND calculus! After all, they should all be treated the same. And if they say Good morning to the teacher, then the teacher better give the EXACT same response to EVERY student, otherwise they could be showing favoritism.

Trust me, the real-world is a lot different than the bubble some people call home.

~M~

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

LOL

Good luck with that, seriously.

Any parent reading your statement about never doing anything stupid as a parent would know, instantly, that you're not a parent.

Have you ever seen a school handbook? Do you know all the rules? Do you really think everyone student should be treated identically? If so, let's make them ALL take football AND chess cub AND Spanish AND calculus! After all, they should all be treated the same. And if they say Good morning to the teacher, then the teacher better give the EXACT same response to EVERY student, otherwise they could be showing favoritism.

Trust me, the real-world is a lot different than the bubble some people call home.

~M~

We're not talking about sports, we're talking about the base of how kids are dealt with

If one is wrong for doing something, they ALL are wrong for doing it. If you throw a spitwad and get in trouble, the guy behind you will get in trouble if he throws a spitwad too

If you bring a knife to school you'll get in trouble, if your buddy brings his the next day, he'll get in trouble too

Its not a tough concept to understand.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

That is NOT common sense.

If you've been paying attention, that's a big part of what we've been discussing.

"Remotely used as a weapon"? I had an ex-girlfriend that tried stabbing me with a fork a few times. Better have the kids eat with their hands.

Wait!

Hands can be USED AS WEAPONS!!!!!!

OMG!!!!

Better tape up their hands and wrap them in a few inches of foam. They can eat at home...after all, that IS the parent's responsibility.

Oh, and their legs. too. They could kick someone's teeth in. Let's strap all of them into chairs with face shields on, like Hannibal Lechter.

Think I'm kidding?

My above suggestions are just as logical as some zero-tolerance policies.

~M~

not really. they need hands feet and legs in school, they dont need boy scout eating utensils.

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

not really. they need hands feet and legs in school, they dont need boy scout eating utensils.

Yes, really. Hands and feet CAN be used as weapons.

Remember? You said...

And they DID use common sense. They made the policy to not allow anything that could remotely be a weapon into the school...for any reason, and it applies equally to every student.

See? Not common sense at all.

Hands and feet "could remotely be a weapon" (YOUR words).

Do they need them? According to you, it doesn't matter if it's "for any reason" (YOUR words again).

And if you think I'm going too far with the points I'm making then you're starting to get why zero-tolerance policies don't always make sense.

All the best,
Michael

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Yes, really. Hands and feet CAN be used as weapons.

Remember? You said...

See? Not common sense at all.

Hands and feet "could remotely be a weapon" (YOUR words).

Do they need them? According to you, it doesn't matter if it's "for any reason" (YOUR words again).

And if you think I'm going too far with the points I'm making then you're starting to get why zero-tolerance policies don't always make sense.

All the best,
Michael

yes, feet and knives are the same thing. :rolleyes:

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rpewitt 15 years ago

the best thing is everyone to sit back and use some conman sense in this situation. as for what cold happen leave that to the emergency planner who have been trained to handle situation .I have over 25 year with the Red Cross include first aid instructor and disaster service .
as for who to blame the kid, parents and school official need all need to communicate with each other rodney
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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

And they DID use common sense. They made the policy to not allow anything that could remotely be a weapon into the school...for any reason, and it applies equally to every student.

Michael, are you like this on purpose?

The RULES for no weapons of any kind is fine. The Punishment is what needs the common sense.

Even the laws of our wonderful land takes "intent" into account. They can certainly do the same thing here.

Done with this "useless" debate now.

By the way, you CAN change policies. They did in Zach's case. I guess you don't see that connection?

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Michael, are you like this on purpose?

The RULES for no weapons of any kind is fine. The Punishment is what needs the common sense.

Even the laws of our wonderful land takes "intent" into account. They can certainly do the same thing here.

Done with this "useless" debate now.

By the way, you CAN change policies. They did in Zach's case. I guess you don't see that connection?

You can change policies, but that doesnt mean that they will. This isnt to just protect your child, its to protect every child. Equally.

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

I'm not sure if anyone saw my earlier post, but Zach did NOT get 45 days in reform school. It ended up being a 1 or 2 day suspension AND the school board modified the rule (if only slightly).

The only reason I mention my previous post is that several comments have made me wonder if it's being ignored. Which is okay, my posts aren't more imprtant than anyone else's.

But knowing what REALLY happened should be pertinent to the discussion to some extent.

All the best,
Michael

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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

I'm not sure if anyone saw my earlier post, but Zach did NOT get 45 days in reform school. It ended up being a 1 or 2 day suspension AND the school board modified the rule (if only slightly).

The only reason I mention my previous post is that several comments have made me wonder if it's being ignored. Which is okay, my posts aren't more imprtant than anyone else's.

But knowing what REALLY happened should be pertinent to the discussion to some extent.

All the best,
Michael

Yeah, I caught that on the news.

But if not for the intense public pressure, they probably would have tried to send him

The debate I think isn't so much about this particular outcome as it was about the outrageousness of the punishment in the first place.

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Yeah, I caught that on the news.

But if not for the intense public pressure, they probably would have tried to send him

The debate I think isn't so much about this particular outcome as it was about the outrageousness of the punishment in the first place.

That's right. I'm sure it was the unrelenting pressure that brought about the change. As I mentioned earlier...that's why I think the media focusing on these cases is a good thing.

Yes, I agree that's what the debate is about, too. However, if people want to use Zach as an example, then they should stick to the facts.

Such as...

It was a stupid decision. They were pressured. And it IS possible for these things to get overturned.

Today's Lesson: Stand up for common sense.

All the best,
Michael

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MikeAmbrosio

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

That's right. I'm sure it was the unrelenting pressure that brought about the change. As I mentioned earlier...that's why I think the media focusing on these cases is a good thing.

Yes, I agree that's what the debate is about, too. However, if people want to use Zach as an example, then they should stick to the facts.

Such as...

It was a stupid decision. They were pressured. And it IS possible for these things to get overturned.

Today's Lesson: Stand up for common sense.

All the best,
Michael

Which is, in my own way, what I have been trying to say.

I think it's still prudent to use the Zach initial punishment to illustrate the LACK of common sense in some of the laws and POLICIES we come up with in our society, and the results as a shining example of how public pressure can change things.

Mike

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

The idea that zero-tolerance policies will somehow reduce lawsuits is ridiculous, ludicrous, laughable, idiotic and asinine. They can just as easily cause lawsuits.

My proof?

Because if any of my kids were subjected to a nonsensical policy, and they would face trumped up punishment - you can be sure there WOULD be a lawsuit. And I'm guessing other people feel the same way.

All the best,
Michael

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

If its policy, its not 'trumped up'

You dont get to set policy, the school does. if you dont like their policy, you have the option of going to another school, but you dont get to change their policy just for you.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Wont matter. To a parent, none of this could possibly be the fault of the parent. They have nothing to do with the child and how he/she acts...right?

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MikeAmbrosio 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Wont matter. To a parent, none of this could possibly be the fault of the parent. They have nothing to do with the child and how he/she acts...right?

Nope. Not the point either.

Although I HAVE met some parents who think:

A) MY kid is an ANGEL

B) It's not MY fault!

Disheartening. But they exist.

Anyway, was not my point.
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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

I stopped by school just for lunch (actually it was a recon mission, but they didnt need to know that

I can tell you that not trusting your kids is a lousy way to "parent". Recon mission? It's good to know what you're kids are up to, but if you have to spy on them using false pretenses, then you got more problems than I thought.

So, get off your high freakin' "I'm the best parent in the known universe" horse and get a grip on reality.

Out of Ritalin?

All the best,
Michael

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"Ich bin en fuego!"

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