Spanking children - yes or no?

[Kay King]

Gary -

Your point about discipline in the school is important. I honestly have never seen children behave as badly as I have the past few years. When you have to have "monitors" to ride school buses to keep kids from fighting (or having sex) it's time to change something.

My sister-in-law went back to college when her youngest child entered college - she had always wanted to teach. After one years in the public school system teaching middle school age children, she quit and went to a private school to teach.

She had a 12 yr old pull a knife on her, had fights in the classroom - and when she tried to do something about the problem kids the parents had only excuses and the school policy was "just deal with it as best you can".

This is a woman who raised three disciplined children - if she can't control a classroom, a 20 something fresh out of school can't.

Spanking is ONE method of discipline - but many parents now seem to have no discipline at all. Children don't learn self control and good behavior toward others or responsibility unless they are taught.

I think the "self confidence" bit with kids has gone overboard - a little bit of fear of authority is a good thing when children are growing up. There have to be consequences for actions.

kay

[Flyingpig7]

I agree with MikeAmbrosio, the definitions have to be drawn between abuse and discipline there is a difference.
I was spanked as a child maybe 3 times I don't feel abused. Also I had my knuckles rapped with a wooden ruler learning to play the piano by my teacher then.
I just laugh about that now, because I know the difference between a beating and discipline. It's all about balance, just like knowing the difference between right and wrong (a lot of adults appear to be confused about that as well).

Keren

[MikeAmbrosio]

James

You obviously went through some bad times as a kid. Sounds more like abuse rather than a smack or spank...

But what works for some children does not work for others.

As I have stated, I don't believe in or use spanking as a form of punishment, but if a whack on the bottom keeps them from hurting themselves worse, it is worth it. And I hardly think this is something that would cause any kind of "damage" if the rest of the family life is well-balanced and has good communication.

But, that's my view. You are entitled to raise your kids any way you see fit

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by wholesale

I am sitting here reading some of your comments and I actually feel sick..Hitting, smacking, spanking whatever you want to call it is violence..If you hit another person it is assault..so what is the difference?
My dad smacked me and I am now 39 years old and have no contact with him..Since having children myself it has made me wonder just why my dad did this to me...I adore my children and could never imagine ever in a million years wanting to touch them or make them cry because I hurt them with my hand or anything else..its old fashioned and its disgusting...its just an excuse to let out a bit of frustration on an innocent child...

My daughter is an absolute angel and we have never laid a finger on her..there are much better ways to bring up children than to physically assault them..communication is the best for me..I never want my children to fear me like I feared my dad...

Next time anyone goes to smack a child just think of what I have said and remember your baby when they were born...they are pure and innocent and should not see violence, however mild in the home..these are my opinions based on my childhood..

Many Thanks

James Wife Leigh

The next time you tell your child 'no, stop drawing on the walls', and they look you dead in the eye and do it again, and you tell them no again, and they again look you straight in the eye and do it again, how many times will you stand for the child to completely ignore? You can only say no so many times before you just dont matter any more to the child because you're not going to do anything else to enforce your point.

[garyv]

Originally Posted by wholesale

I am sitting here reading some of your comments and I actually feel sick..Hitting, smacking, spanking whatever you want to call it is violence..If you hit another person it is assault..so what is the difference?
My dad smacked me and I am now 39 years old and have no contact with him..Since having children myself it has made me wonder just why my dad did this to me...I adore my children and could never imagine ever in a million years wanting to touch them or make them cry because I hurt them with my hand or anything else..its old fashioned and its disgusting...its just an excuse to let out a bit of frustration on an innocent child...

My daughter is an absolute angel and we have never laid a finger on her..there are much better ways to bring up children than to physically assault them..communication is the best for me..I never want my children to fear me like I feared my dad...

Next time anyone goes to smack a child just think of what I have said and remember your baby when they were born...they are pure and innocent and should not see violence, however mild in the home..these are my opinions based on my childhood..

Many Thanks

James Wife Leigh

I hate to be so harsh and blunt, but giving your child a little swat on the butt beats having to pick their brains up off of the road any day of the week. There's no violence involved in a little hand-butt communication, only tough love. (More tough on the parent, in my case).

If you yourself were abused, then you may want to find another method. But for those that are disciplined enough to use it in love, and not out of anger, then it's a quick communication tool. And if used right usually only has to be used a few times.

My children not only have respect for me and my wife, but they also show the utmost respect to their teachers and other adult authorities.

[steve m]

I would never spank my daughter, NEVER, saying that she is only 6 months old. Maybe my veiws will change when she gets a little older. But probally not Joke lol

I used to get the belt, but that was a few years ago now. I had the slipper a few times too.

It is like the discusion on do you think that teachers can spank your child as they once were. I think not there is always the naughty step ha ha I watch nanny 911!!!!!

[tryinhere]

There still seems a lot of confusion and mainly in the area of its OK i love them type replies,

The very simple answer to that is that there is no such thing as putting tough love/ love or any other variable as justification to hitting a child in any form or manner.

so much so if i were ever to see any person attempting to hit a child for any reason, i would walk up and purposely stand between you and the child, then quietly say if you wish to continue with your unjustified loving then for you to hit me as much as you lie.

and you could hit me all day, as i wont cry nor winch with pain or blink, you see i have had the crap belted out of me in the name of tough love so much i can not cry no more, i feel pain no more and you can not hurt me any more.

And yes i am now had my own family with 2 beautiful girls both in their late teens early twenties, the only discipline they had was love ( not tough love ) they are both A grade students with distinctions and honor's and all of this rubbish related to justified hitting to learn is pure 100% garbage.

Want to dish out some tough love, invite me around for a chat and see / feel the pain, and i promise you will never lay a finger on your child again. If you do then you can hit me for as long as it takes to clear your system so you do not hurt another child

[garyv]

Originally Posted by tryinhere

There still seems a lot of confusion and mainly in the area of its OK i love them type replies,

The very simple answer to that is that there is no such thing as putting tough love/ love or any other variable as justification to hitting a child in any form or manner.

so much so if i were ever to see any person attempting to hit a child for any reason, i would walk up and purposely stand between you and the child, then quietly say if you wish to continue with your unjustified loving then for you to hit me as much as you lie.

and you could hit me all day, as i wont cry nor winch with pain or blink, you see i have had the crap belted out of me in the name of tough love so much i can not cry no more, i feel pain no more and you can not hurt me any more.

And yes i am now had my own family with 2 beautiful girls both in their late teens early twenties, the only discipline they had was love ( not tough love ) they are both A grade students with distinctions and honor's and all of this rubbish related to justified hitting to learn is pure 100% garbage.

Want to dish out some tough love, invite me around for a chat and see / feel the pain, and i promise you will never lay a finger on your child again. If you do then you can hit me for as long as it takes to clear your system so you do not hurt another child

Again - you're probably not getting it, and may never get it, because you were abused. And that's a shame. But there IS such a thing as a little swat on the butt out of pure love. Just because you've never been a part of it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I myself received little swats on the behind from my parents, and I love them to death.

ps - If I'm in the middle of communicating to my child that they can't just run out into a busy road - believe me you wouldn't be able to stand between me and my child.

[FaJeeb]

People seem to feel there is some magical formula of doing this and that will equal a good child or something. Children are all different, learn different ways, and become different things. I'm thankful my mom and dad spanked ME when I was out of line and hard-headed. I am also thankful they didn't do it out of anger, but instead were calm and there to discipline me, not take there aggression or lack of patience out on me. There will be a time where it will be necessary for me to communicate a message through the form of minor physical punishment to express that I am disappointed by my child's actions.

I don't feel that I would be the least bit successful at most of what I do without my parents instilling the ideals that the world does not actually revolve around me, and that I am not invincible. Maybe that's just me though.

[tryinhere]

Originally Posted by garyv

Again - you're probably not getting it, and may never get it, because you were abused. And that's a shame. But there IS such a thing as a little swat on the butt out of pure love. Just because you've never been a part of it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I myself received little swats on the behind from my parents, and I love them to death.

ps - If I'm in the middle of communicating to my child that they can't just run out into a busy road - believe me you wouldn't be able to stand between me and my child.

Gary i respect your view, and it is the mentality that exists that there is such a thing as tough love or that little tap is ok thinking that is were we differ, how do i know i raised 2 chilren with never laying a hand on them once and do i have tough dicipline yes you bet i do.

i can not change the world not will i try but do not justify hurting children under any manner, as for not getting it, what part do i not get " o its ok we love them" yes i heard that while having the crap beat of me, that worked

any person who can not control an enviroment and feels the only resort is smacking is the person who needs some guidance not the child. period

ps - If I'm in the middle of communicating to my child that they can't just run out into a busy road - believe me you wouldn't be able to stand between me and my child.

please do not confuse what i said, why would i stop that

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by tryinhere

Gary i respect your view, and it is the mentality that exists that there is such a thing as tough love or that little tap is ok thinking that is were we differ, how do i know i raised 2 chilren with never laying a hand on them once and do i have tough dicipline yes you bet i do.

i can not change the world not will i try but do not justify hurting children under any manner, as for not getting it, what part do i not get " o its ok we love them" yes i heard that while having the crap beat of me, that worked

any person who can not control an enviroment and feels the only resort is smacking is the person who needs some guidance not the child. period

please do not confuse what i said, why would i stop that

I think what is missing is what the spanking actually entails.
Like I said earlier I spanked my youngest, but never in anger and never hard enough to hurt her in any way.
It was a tool used to get her attention.
When it was needed, she would be so focused on what she was doing that a bomb going off next to her wouldn't distract her, a couple of light taps on the butt and sharply saying her name would.
As far as hitting a child to hurt or punish them, I was as a child but choose not to go that route with my kids. As they told me later in life the punishment for them was listening to me explain what they did wrong, which was my plan all along

[tryinhere]

Originally Posted by ThomM

but choose not to go that route with my kids. As they told me later in life the punishment for them was listening to me explain what they did wrong, which was my plan all along

Thats some good news, please do not read me wrong, we are here to build a on line business and this is a off topic section that really is just some fun.

I really hope those parents i an environment think before they even tap the children because in many ways by taking this measure they are saying i have lost some sort of control and to restore the status quo where i am in control i will resort to "tough love".

And it is sad that people think that the only way to take command of the environment to forcibly make that happen, and in many cases / all cases i have seen it has been badged as "we love them or tough love or any other variant of that"

When really the person simply does not know or have an alternate way to deal with the situation.

For example i am teaching my youngest daughter to drive now, the roads are dangerous, so lets say she stops to late at the stop sign and goes over a little, ? do i reach over and smack her behind the ears because " i lover her and want to teach her right from wrong ?

No that would be wrong, and what about if you are a boss who has a new young employee , say learning to operate a press, do you walk up and smack them in front of all and sundry because they pressed the wrong button ?

No we do not do these things, nor should we, but then at what age do we say well we will stop hitting them in the name of love ?

Surly its OK when they are little i am big and they can not fight back or talk back and i really do love them.

? well the truth is a child looks up to the parents for all inspiration and guidance, love nurture and all of those qualities, you start smacking them and you only install fear and apply intimidation.

again your an adult and you want to tell me that hitting a small and defenseless child is your only resort and then you wish to justify that weakness with the "i love them words"

I have not met one abused child who has not heard or had the words uttered " but we done it because we loved them"

If as adults you truly love your children then applying fear and intimidation , abuse is not the answer nor will it ever be, and if by some means your application of the words " we love them " justifies your actions then i hope as ThomM has written above, change you and your kids say to you as toms kids have then you can stand proud. well done and thank you for your story Tom.

for me its back to this Internet thingy that we are all here for, and picking up the occasional broken child in my spare time and where i can offering them a little ray of hope, i can not help them all, but if i can help one then that is a start and i hope the next child in your care feels safe and loved and not frightened in the name of love.

[garyv]

Originally Posted by tryinhere

Thats some good news, please do not read me wrong, we are here to build a on line business and this is a off topic section that really is just some fun.

I really hope those parents i an environment think before they even tap the children because in many ways by taking this measure they are saying i have lost some sort of control and to restore the status quo where i am in control i will resort to "tough love".

And it is sad that people think that the only way to take command of the environment to forcibly make that happen, and in many cases / all cases i have seen it has been badged as "we love them or tough love or any other variant of that"

When really the person simply does not know or have an alternate way to deal with the situation.

For example i am teaching my youngest daughter to drive now, the roads are dangerous, so lets say she stops to late at the stop sign and goes over a little, ? do i reach over and smack her behind the ears because " i lover her and want to teach her right from wrong ?

No that would be wrong, and what about if you are a boss who has a new young employee , say learning to operate a press, do you walk up and smack them in front of all and sundry because they pressed the wrong button ?

No we do not do these things, nor should we, but then at what age do we say well we will stop hitting them in the name of love ?

Surly its OK when they are little i am big and they can not fight back or talk back and i really do love them.

? well the truth is a child looks up to the parents for all inspiration and guidance, love nurture and all of those qualities, you start smacking them and you only install fear and apply intimidation.

again your an adult and you want to tell me that hitting a small and defenseless child is your only resort and then you wish to justify that weakness with the "i love them words"

I have not met one abused child who has not heard or had the words uttered " but we done it because we loved them"

If as adults you truly love your children then applying fear and intimidation , abuse is not the answer nor will it ever be, and if by some means your application of the words " we love them " justifies your actions then i hope as ThomM has written above, change you and your kids say to you as toms kids have then you can stand proud. well done and thank you for your story Tom.

for me its back to this Internet thingy that we are all here for, and picking up the occasional broken child in my spare time and where i can offering them a little ray of hope, i can not help them all, but if i can help one then that is a start and i hope the next child in your care feels safe and loved and not frightened in the name of love.

I hate to say it, but you're way off. There are many ways to discipline a child without becoming abusive, and that includes a little swat to the hind quarters once in a while. And by the way, there are people out there that never lay a hand on their children that are way more abusive just with their words.

I can understand your thinking though, because you were abused. You have no way of looking at this from a rational point of view. My parents spanked me a few times while I was growing up, and not once did I feel abused or that my parents hated me. In fact quite the opposite. I respected and loved them for setting boundaries for me and making me to feel safe.

I have one son that is 15 and I've never had to spank him. He's very respectful, but he's also tender hearted. There's no need to spank him, because all you have to do is change your tone with him, and then he knows he's in the wrong and changes his actions almost immediately.

However I have another son that is 3 almost 4 years old. He thinks he's invincible and does not take no for an answer. If he wants to stick a fork or his finger in the light socket, he'll be very persistent, until you either give him a little swat, or he gets his fork or finger in the socket. I've put him in time out, taken away toys, put him in his room, but if he wants to get his way, he'll persist through all of that. So it's either a little swat, or let him have at the light socket. I have no problem w/ a little swat, and neither does he. He still thinks I'm his biggest hero, and he's one of mine.

[tryinhere]

Well gary lets just say we have differing views and leave it at that, you say that smacking a child in your care is ok, I say say its not.

You say i am way off and there are many ways to dicipline a child. yes i rasied two girls without hitting them, they are great well adjusted young adults, what did you want to teach me?

for me i will not take this further with you as it is a pointless venture, I wish you well.

[KPYang]

It's illegal to smack'em on the head with an object or slap them silly but if you just spank them with your palms open, it's should be fine. I believe some children needs spanking, believe or not, sometimes they stop doing what their not suppose to do after getting spanked.

[Scott Ames]

Do they have to be your own kids? Just kidding. I don't know why but it seems a lot of kids these days have no respect for anyone.

[JAIDEEP2959]

I did get spanked by my father in the childhood.

I think it's wrong to spank a child when you know that kids are expected to make mistakes due to ignorance.

I will never spank my children.

[Richard Tunnah]

As a kid my mum only spanked me once - I was messing about with my little brother and pushed him off. Unfortunately he fell down the stairs and cracked his head open! But appart from that my mum used the stern talking to and loss of pocket money etc as her 'stick'. I can remember acting up in a department store and getting dragged out of it and told in no uncertain terms my behaviour wasn't acceptable. We went straight home and I got sent to bed (no tv or computers in bedroom in those days). I was given an hour to reflect on my behaviour. Whoops!
So I'm not one for smacking kids but at the same time it annoys me how some parents let their kids run riot when out. Saw a 4/5 year old swining on a dummy in a shop window today without the parents caring. I thought any minute that'll fall on top of the kid and the parents will be playing war with the shop!

Rich

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by JAIDEEP2959

I did get spanked by my father in the childhood.

I think it's wrong to spank a child when you know that kids are expected to make mistakes due to ignorance.

I will never spank my children.

spankings arent for mistakes due to ignorance. Spankings are for actions when they know better.

[garyv]

Originally Posted by tryinhere

Well gary lets just say we have differing views and leave it at that, you say that smacking a child in your care is ok, I say say its not.

You say i am way off and there are many ways to dicipline a child. yes i rasied two girls without hitting them, they are great well adjusted young adults, what did you want to teach me?

for me i will not take this further with you as it is a pointless venture, I wish you well.

Yes we probably will have differing points of view - especially when you don't bother to read what I write. Never did I say it's ok to "smack" a child. There's a big difference between a swat on the rear and a smack.

[JRG]

The question isn't whether or not you should, it's how.

What is the reason for a spanking? It is not just discipline it is also correction. You are trying to correct a behavior and letting them know that their is a consequence for their actions. That will be true in their life forever. You break the law you pay a price.

The reason spankings are not effective is when they are done wrong and just end up raising angry kids.

Most people who are against spanking had a bad experience with it as a child and so they disagree with it now.

Many people feel they were abused because "spanking" also is used to describe being smacked on the back of the head, being slapped or having their hair grabbed to yell at them. That is not spanking. That is an example of how to raise a rebellious resentful kid.

There are some very important guidelines to spanking that make it successful.

- Never use your hand. Kids should understand that your hand is not for discipline but a paddle is.

- Never do it in anger. The image they will have is you "beating" them in anger. It is no longer about correction or discipline.

- Always talk with them first. Explain what they did wrong, why it's wrong and why it has to be corrected.

- Always hug them after. They need to know they are still loved. That you are not disowning them. Just walking away lets them sit their and grow resentful.

- Never do it in public or in front of a sibling. This embarrasses them and that is not what you are trying to do.

- Never smack them or grab hair etc... That is abusive and creates resentment. It is always done out of anger as well.

- Be consistent! There have to be rules laid out and those rules need to be enforced. When you spank them sometimes for something and sometimes they get away with it, they will always push the line.

- It needs to be instant. Stop counting to 3! That basically tells them they have 2 seconds to get away with something before you will do anything about it. Watch the next time you do it. They will wait till the "th" in "three" starts to roll off your tongue before stopping. I know a parent who's 4 year old was hit by a car because whenever she said stop she would have to count to 3 first before he would listen. That boy ran into the street before she could count.


Disciplining your kids needs to be about loving them and wanting them to grow up right. Not about anger. It is hard work and you must be consistent.

It's a lot easier to just spank and run out of anger and that will fail everytime. It takes time to calm down and take them to a room and talk with them and hold them after. It's not the easy way but in the long run it is. You can't be lazy with this. You are responsible for how they grow up.

If done right you won't need to spank much as they get older.

But having said all that their is a lot more involved in raising a child. You can do all that right and mess up a whole lot more.

The most important thing is to realize that you are responsible for a life!

Kids aren't just something you drag along through life. It is a full time job and takes a lot of hard work to be a good parent. But in the end they will love you for it!


Hope that helps, it's a topic I care a lot about as you can see. I was fortunate to know some really good parents before having kids of my own! ;-)

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

So you are seriously saying that's it's okay
as long as you don't use a hand - just use
a paddle or a stick instead?

no, he's saying that you should use a paddle so that kids know when its spanking time. Using a paddle or something like that sets a boundary. they know when the paddle comes out, playtime is over.

I dont think there is really a steadfast rule on this. I dont have a problem with spanking a child as I said before, but not all children need to be spanked. By the same token, not all children DONT need to have that bottom warmed up from time to time. If you have kids that don't need a swat to get their attention, good for you, but don't look down your nose at the parent that is spanking their child because you dont know what that child is like the rest of the time you are not around.

I see a lot of parents who talk about how you shouldnt spank your children, and those are the parents that are in the malls with their teenagers screaming at them, calling mom a bitch and dad a d**k because they wont buy them a pair of $100 sneakers.

[KimW]

"calling mom a bitch and dad a d**k because they wont buy them a pair of $100 sneakers."

The thing is, who created and marketed $100 sneakers in the first place? It wasn't a kid.
When I was a kid you could get 10 pairs of sneakers for $100 and they would probably last longer than anything on the market today.

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by KimW

"calling mom a bitch and dad a d**k because they wont buy them a pair of $100 sneakers."

The thing is, who created and marketed $100 sneakers in the first place? It wasn't a kid.
When I was a kid you could get 10 pairs of sneakers for $100 and they would probably last longer than anything on the market today.

that has nothing to do with the children speaking to their parents that way.

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

You can half out of your **** boy.

ok..i wouldnt even know what that would mean without the ****.

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

Let me kindly put it another way
for you...

You should lie down on your side
Michael naked.

Get your partner to draw a couple
of eye's on the top cheek of your
backside with a large black marker
pen, sketch on a nose, draw some
lips around the crack of your bottom
and get that person to massage it.

Then it really would look like you
were talking out of your ass.

Oh wait, there's no difference.

well that is the point of having a paddle or something like that and using only that for spankings.

Its no different than using a rolled up newspaper on your dog. After a while, the spanking is not even necessary because the pavlovian response when just seeing the 'tool' will be enough to get the desired action.

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

To me it just sounds like you get a
kick out of hitting anything, as long
as it's smaller or weaker than yourself.

Now now sunshine...no need trying to pick a fight because you dont understand what is being said.

[KimW]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

that has nothing to do with the children speaking to their parents that way.

Oh, I disagree, which is why I commented.

[Jhf14]

i say yes... just gotta do it once or so.

[MikeAmbrosio]

Well now there's no use getting huffy with those who have a different viewpoint

At the end of the day, some kids don't need to be spanked, some do, and then there are some parents who need to be spanked.

Everyone and every situation is different. If spanking ain't your thing, awesome. I personally don't see a swat on the bottom in the name of protecting a child as an act of violence.

On the other hand, I have seen parents who get on a soapbox about "spanking being violent" and would NEVER do that, yet proceed to berate their children with words...

"Oh, you're so stupid!"

"What's the matter with you? Don't you have a brain?"

"Why can't you be more like your brother - he's an angel"

You get the idea. To me, that has a much deeper, devastating and long-lasting effect than a hand to the bottom.

[MikeAmbrosio]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

The thread title though is about spanking
kids, that is hitting them.

What you describe above is emotional
abuse, which is equally wrong.

What's wrong with just praising your kids,
giving them love, encouraging them, listening
to them, being respectful of the fact that
they have feelings just like everyone else?

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Mark,

All due respect, who says that those who may spank DON'T praise their kids? Why must this be a "one way or the other" subject?

Once again, in the terms I refer to (as others in this thread) spanking is not used as a disciplinary measure. If some can classify ALL spanking as violent and abusive, then it's just as relevant to bring in the emotional abuse aspect.

If you truly believe that a thump on the behind in order to keep your child from, say, climbing out a window on to a rooftop, or grabbing a boiling pot off a stove top, is nothing more than a violent act that WILL hurt a child, well, then I suppose that's your right.

I, however, disagree.

As a last resort, if it keeps my child from doing major damage to himself, so be it. A thump on the bottom it is.

For the record, I have never had to spank my 6 year old. He's not all that curious about things like pots on a stove, etc. Of my 4 kids, I only had to do this once, when my now 21 year old was young (I mentioned this in another post as to why). If you want to consider me a violent or abusive person because of this, well there's not a whole lot I can do...

[tryinhere]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

well that is the point of having a paddle or something like that and using only that for spankings.
Its no different than using a rolled up newspaper on your dog. After a while, the spanking is not even necessary because the pavlovian response when just seeing the 'tool' will be enough to get the desired action.

You know its funny, smack , whack , tickle, slap, we all have differing names for it, and now the paddle, hey now thats discipline.

Let me tell you about discipline and the paddle, as a very young child, living in the house of slaps and tickles (because we love them) i witnessed my younger sister get the disciplinary paddle, right hey we mean business now it real you have been naughty.

lets see she was beaten around the head with the paddle that many times i could no longer see her face for blood, her body was smashed in every limb she had broken bones and her arms, legs torso, buttocks chest back, well just say all of it were so severely beaten you could not not see any color nut purple, blue or red for blood.

she was beaten so bad she could not stand or walk at all, she would have been about 4 at the time, i was able to help drag her after a few hours to her room, i was unable to get her up on the bed so i made a little bed on the floor for her as best i could.

It took several days before she could walk again,

so for those big brave people here continue to say beating , slap tickle or any other variant of the word. it has been said time and time again that it is you that needs the help, you are hitting a defenseless child regardless and it shows your own flaws as to you ability to say your only resort to control or teach or whatever you call it is violence against children.

Most of you are closet hero's in that i bet this supposed "but we love them" slaps occur in the home behind closed doors, never in public you would be to scared for that.

Yes we probably will have differing points of view - especially when you don't bother to read what I write. Never did I say it's OK to "smack" a child. There's a big difference between a swat on the rear and a smack.

so Gary i do not care how you write or justify or attempt to justify that there is some right in what you do, as i will say again there is no justification, and i am not mad with you or any one, i also feel very sad for the people who think that this is their only resource. I also often find the people who do this are also carrying some inner anger or are frustrated with part of life, maybe it financial stress or any of many factors.

So yes i am not upset at you and just as i feel for the children i also have grown to feel for the person who does these things and i hope and pray that next time you are faced with the call to smack or whatever it is you choose to call it that you are give the strength to find an alternate way to resolve any issues you are having, I also say this for any other parental person who cares for children to also have the strength not to hit any more children, you both need love and understanding not more pain.

lastly on the tap the puppy thing that started this response, and you might have guessed i know this subject well by now, that i find a very common link with those who think smacking the puppy is OK to train them and some people who hit children, these 2 things are found together

and any person who trains dogs will tell you that you never not once have to hit a dog to train it and it is the worst thing you can do.

? how do i know well i train dobermans and i never hit them, they are loyal as a snap of the finger 100%

as a final note in most civilized countries hitting children is now illegal, it just taking some parts of the world to catch up and i hope soon we can stop just one more child from the "tough love policy" that exists in a few people still.

Pete

[mattlaclear]

We never spank our kids and they are very well behaved kids. Though we do use tasers on them quite often. =)

[mattlaclear]

Originally Posted by tryinhere

You know its funny, smack , whack , tickle, slap, we all have differing names for it, and now the paddle, hey now thats discipline.

Let me tell you about discipline and the paddle, as a very young child, living in the house of slaps and tickles (because we love them) i witnessed my younger sister get the disciplinary paddle, right hey we mean business now it real you have been naughty.

lets see she was beaten around the head with the paddle that many times i could no longer see her face for blood, her body was smashed in every limb she had broken bones and her arms, legs torso, buttocks chest back, well just say all of it were so severely beaten you could not not see any color nut purple, blue or red for blood.

she was beaten so bad she could not stand or walk at all, she would have been about 4 at the time, i was able to help drag her after a few hours to her room, i was unable to get her up on the bed so i made a little bed on the floor for her as best i could.

It took several days before she could walk again,

so for those big brave people here continue to say beating , slap tickle or any other variant of the word. it has been said time and time again that it is you that needs the help, you are hitting a defenseless child regardless and it shows your own flaws as to you ability to say your only resort to control or teach or whatever you call it is violence against children.

Most of you are closet hero's in that i bet this supposed "but we love them" slaps occur in the home behind closed doors, never in public you would be to scared for that.

so Gary i do not care how you write or justify or attempt to justify that there is some right in what you do, as i will say again there is no justification, and i am not mad with you or any one, i also feel very sad for the people who think that this is their only resource. I also often find the people who do this are also carrying some inner anger or are frustrated with part of life, maybe it financial stress or any of many factors.

So yes i am not upset at you and just as i feel for the children i also have grown to feel for the person who does these things and i hope and pray that next time you are faced with the call to smack or whatever it is you choose to call it that you are give the strength to find an alternate way to resolve any issues you are having, I also say this for any other parental person who cares for children to also have the strength not to hit any more children, you both need love and understanding not more pain.

lastly on the tap the puppy thing that started this response, and you might have guessed i know this subject well by now, that i find a very common link with those who think smacking the puppy is OK to train them and some people who hit children, these 2 things are found together

and any person who trains dogs will tell you that you never not once have to hit a dog to train it and it is the worst thing you can do.

? how do i know well i train dobermans and i never hit them, they are loyal as a snap of the finger 100%

as a final note in most civilized countries hitting children is now illegal, it just taking some parts of the world to catch up and i hope soon we can stop just one more child from the "tough love policy" that exists in a few people still.

Pete

Pete just b/c your parents were monster does not make other parents monster when they lovingly discipline their children. Try to keep that in mind when you start ranting. There is a difference between discipline and abuse. Personally with our 4 younger kids we have never had to spank them even once. They are happy and very well adjusted kids too. But I would never berate someone for lovingly spanking their children.

[MikeAmbrosio]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

Please read all of my comments as I see
no point in covering old ground again.

Thanks.


Mark Andrews...

I did read all of your comments

That's why I responded.

Mike

[tryinhere]

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

Pete just b/c your parents were monster does not make other parents monster when they lovingly discipline their children. Try to keep that in mind when you start ranting. There is a difference between discipline and abuse. Personally with our 4 younger kids we have never had to spank them even once. They are happy and very well adjusted kids too. But I would never berate someone for lovingly spanking their children.

I understand that, but there simply no connection between hitting a child and justifying that, so much so the law clearly staes that now in most parts. that tazer idea could catch on though

what i would like to do is get my focus back onto making money online, that works for me in this forum

[KrazyG]

I do not like to spank my kid in the future. If it is for discipline, there's an alternative way to do that. I don't want my kids to grow and hate me because of spanking them.

I like a relationship where they respect me, they're open, share stories, laugh, drink and just love each other.

[MikeAmbrosio]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

Then your reading comprehension
is somewhat lacking.

Either that or your ability to get a point across.

Either way, this conversation has now become a waste of my time.

Ciao.

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

The thread title though is about spanking
kids, that is hitting them.

What you describe above is emotional
abuse, which is equally wrong.

What's wrong with just praising your kids,
giving them love, encouraging them, listening
to them, being respectful of the fact that
they have feelings just like everyone else?

Official Supernanny Parenting Advice | Reward Charts | Childcare

Youtube clips:

YouTube - super nanny

spanking is hitting, but its not hitting just for hitting's sake, it is for discipline which is vastly different because of the motivations.

[MikeAmbrosio]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

It's a waste of time simply because
you believe the point being conveyed
by an opposing viewpoint is wrong,
which tells me and a few others too
that your're quite frankly just plain pig
headed with no room for compromise.

Ain't that the truth.


Mark Andrews...

And here I thought you were beneath name calling and had character.

Seems I misjudged you.

For the record, I never said your viewpoint was wrong. Only gave mine as opposing. I stated that you have your opinion and I have mine.

Seems to me pig-headedness and poor reading comprehension can run in both directions.

[Tina Golden]

Spanking your child is not illegal. At least not in any state near me. Abuse is illegal, naturally. There is a difference to any reasonable person.

Some of the people here that are so very dead set against the idea also talk about abuse they received as a child. Those horrible experiences have colored your outlook and that's understandable. That does not invalidate any other person's point of view, however.

I was one that went through every form of abuse imaginable as a child. I still don't have a problem with giving my children a swat on the butt when necessary. Not as a standard form of discipline but for the rare occasion when it's the only thing that will work.

I don't care who you are - you cannot reason with a toddler. They don't have that ability yet. When they pull away from you in a parking lot and dart out in front of a car, a swat on their rumps gets their attention in a hurry.

What some people don't seem to realize is that spanking is not about giving pain to the child. Frankly, if you're causing pain, you've gone too far. It's about getting their attention and letting them realize immediately that what they did was not acceptable.

Spanking is only effective before the child has that reasoning ability. Once they've hit school age, there are far too many alternatives to have spanking remain useful or effective.

Two responses to posts above:

The next time you tell your child 'no, stop drawing on the walls', and they look you dead in the eye and do it again, and you tell them no again, and they again look you straight in the eye and do it again, how many times will you stand for the child to completely ignore? You can only say no so many times before you just dont matter any more to the child because you're not going to do anything else to enforce your point.

Before spanking, wouldn't it be far more effective and to the point to TAKE AWAY THE CRAYONS? LOL.

so much so if i were ever to see any person attempting to hit a child for any reason, i would walk up and purposely stand between you and the child, then quietly say if you wish to continue with your unjustified loving then for you to hit me as much as you lie.

I am not normally a very angry person, but if anyone tried to interfere with how I parent/discipline my child, I'd be furious. It's none of your business unless the child is being injured. Do you also go interfere because you don't like the way someone is talking to their child? I love it when people try to tell other people how to raise their children. There is no one way that works for everyone.

Tina

[Michael Motley]

...no a swat would be better.

[tryinhere]

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

. It's none of your business unless the child is being injured. Do you also go interfere because you don't like the way someone is talking to their child? I love it when people try to tell other people how to raise their children. There is no one way that works for everyone.
Tina

Hello Tina, you are correct i would only defend a child if it was being injured and you are also correct that the worst thing another person can do is tell others how to care for their children, and nor would i attempt to do that.

I can express my thoughts in an open and rational way as others do, and i will never buy that hitting a child in any form is in love or learning. they are my views only

So it seems we are on the same page, I also understand there are parts of the world that still allow children to be hit, spanked or what ever it is called.

I will not fathom any person who justifies hitting small and defenseless children in the name of love or teaching, at any level and i feel sad for any person who feels the only training or teaching method is to hit a child.

as for being tough yes i am, the words here do not phase me, as i grew up with what is said here in threat ten times worse than this, and in many ways the tough stance here is making me cry a little now, it brings back strong memories.

But so i can explain this, words or tough words here is what i am used to, followed by beatings so sever that left you broken boned blue ad red with blood, the only way i learned to survive and stay alive was to learn to block out pain, and to this day i no longer feel pain, i can not cry on the outside nor do i have emotion.

For the tough people i would scare the **** out of you if you wanted to hit me or threaten me, as i would just quietly stand and look you in the eye silent every time you knocked me down.

if i could not stand i would support my self as best i could, you would not be so tough, so please people i respect you view but hard balling me is your last thing that really works for me, the best have tried and i have been beaten to pulp for years, you cant hurt me any more.

I pray for you and your kids that you never hit them again, it is not needed, and there is no level of we love them if you hit children please do not call it love.

with that i will leave you to your own devices and wish you a merry festive season, for me i am off to earn a few bucks and just maybe i will buy one more little boy or girl a present this year and make one more child happy in this crazy world.

I have no further interest in this thread.

[MikeAmbrosio]

Mark,

Your idea below is a great one, no doubt.

I have done that with my oldest too - specifically with the stove. In fact, I have probably hurt myself more in the past years using myself as an example

But he was our rambunctious one who just HAD to find out for himself time and again. Sometimes kids are just like that.

The one time I swatted him for breaking free of my hand and running in the parking lot was far from his first attempt - I guess I should have specified that

But after that swat, it was the LAST time he did that.

And also, all I had to do after that was to remind him of that swat and he pretty much stopped doing these potentially self-damaging things after one warning.

In THIS case I truly believe that one swat saved him much more pain over the years.

I guess maybe I can be a bit over-sensitive when people lump a swat (like in the case I have used it) as nothing short of abusive when I know on every level that there's no abuse in my heart - ever.

My responses, so you know, are never about me proving I am right and someone else is wrong. It's simply me expressing my thoughts. Agree, don't, it matters not to me.

So I propose we agree we have different viewpoints and move on...

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

This is very true, I can't argue with
you on that one, what can i say?

Look, top of page 2 - I made a remark,
again I've been thinking about this, what
might be the best course of action given
a scenario such as the hot stove situation.

Wouldn't it be a better course of action,
rather than 'swatting' a child, giving them
pain, to play to their emotional feelings and
love shown naturally towards us as parents
instead to prove our point, rather than
causing the child pain, to tell them, 'No'!

How about in front of the child, the adult
puts his or her hand on the hot stove briefly
so that it at least blisters the skin a little bit,
taking your hand off with a bloody great,
'Ow'! - right in front of the child, to prove
your point that it's bloody hot and hurts
when you touch it?

Show the child your own pain, your own
tears, tell them how much that really hurt
you and say to them, 'Look i only did that
to show you what happens if you were to
put your hand on a hot surface, see my
hand, see how it's blistered and how much
that hurt me, I only showed you that
because that's how much I love you so
much. I just wouldn't want to see that
happen to you'.

Now the child on seeing that is going to
show towards you most likely a great
deal of natural empathy and sympathy
and no doubt will give you a great big
hug to make you feel better. You could
even ask them to help by putting a
plaster on your blister.

They might not be able to put it into so
many words, but chances are they'll
understand the point that you tried to
make for their own benefit and they
won't do it again after seeing the
obvious pain that it caused you their
beloved mommy or daddy.

Wouldn't that be a better course of
action rather than just swatting the
child one to try and teach them that
lesson?

Okay, so you end up with a sore finger
for hand for a day or two, pffffft so
what? Better that and the child learning
the lesson well directly from you rather
than a punishment regime which the
child may or may not fully understand.

What say you, oh reasonable on legs
wise one?

Good idea or not, if not, why not?

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by tryinhere

You know its funny, smack , whack , tickle, slap, we all have differing names for it, and now the paddle, hey now thats discipline.

Let me tell you about discipline and the paddle, as a very young child, living in the house of slaps and tickles (because we love them) i witnessed my younger sister get the disciplinary paddle, right hey we mean business now it real you have been naughty.

lets see she was beaten around the head with the paddle that many times i could no longer see her face for blood, her body was smashed in every limb she had broken bones and her arms, legs torso, buttocks chest back, well just say all of it were so severely beaten you could not not see any color nut purple, blue or red for blood.

she was beaten so bad she could not stand or walk at all, she would have been about 4 at the time, i was able to help drag her after a few hours to her room, i was unable to get her up on the bed so i made a little bed on the floor for her as best i could.

It took several days before she could walk again,

so for those big brave people here continue to say beating , slap tickle or any other variant of the word. it has been said time and time again that it is you that needs the help, you are hitting a defenseless child regardless and it shows your own flaws as to you ability to say your only resort to control or teach or whatever you call it is violence against children.

Most of you are closet hero's in that i bet this supposed "but we love them" slaps occur in the home behind closed doors, never in public you would be to scared for that.

so Gary i do not care how you write or justify or attempt to justify that there is some right in what you do, as i will say again there is no justification, and i am not mad with you or any one, i also feel very sad for the people who think that this is their only resource. I also often find the people who do this are also carrying some inner anger or are frustrated with part of life, maybe it financial stress or any of many factors.

So yes i am not upset at you and just as i feel for the children i also have grown to feel for the person who does these things and i hope and pray that next time you are faced with the call to smack or whatever it is you choose to call it that you are give the strength to find an alternate way to resolve any issues you are having, I also say this for any other parental person who cares for children to also have the strength not to hit any more children, you both need love and understanding not more pain.

lastly on the tap the puppy thing that started this response, and you might have guessed i know this subject well by now, that i find a very common link with those who think smacking the puppy is OK to train them and some people who hit children, these 2 things are found together

and any person who trains dogs will tell you that you never not once have to hit a dog to train it and it is the worst thing you can do.

? how do i know well i train dobermans and i never hit them, they are loyal as a snap of the finger 100%

as a final note in most civilized countries hitting children is now illegal, it just taking some parts of the world to catch up and i hope soon we can stop just one more child from the "tough love policy" that exists in a few people still.

Pete

Your parents' views on discipline and how to administer it are not every parents' views on discipline and how to administer it. Your dogs and how you train them are not everyone's dogs and how they train them.

There is no way you can say that without a doubt not spanking works in every situation with every child. I have already stated that every child does not need spanking, but some do.

Not having discipline or the ability to leaves a society with children that are not worried about consequences. And yes, discipline doesnt always mean physical negative reinforcement, but sometimes it does.

[Tina Golden]

How about in front of the child, the adult
puts his or her hand on the hot stove briefly
so that it at least blisters the skin a little bit,
taking your hand off with a bloody great,
'Ow'! - right in front of the child, to prove
your point that it's bloody hot and hurts
when you touch it?
Now the child on seeing that is going to
show towards you most likely a great
deal of natural empathy and sympathy
and no doubt will give you a great big
hug to make you feel better.

This post is only in response to the quote but honestly, it made me laugh. The thing that you are overlooking is that children are not born with empathy - it is not natural. Empathy is learned. A three year old has rarely learned empathy therefore that would be unlikely to work with most children. I have one daughter, my middle child, that would actually be MORE likely to touch the stove if I had tried that. She was the "contrary" one. If I said it was raining out, she would have to go outside and get wet to believe me...lol. And that is not a joke.

Every child is different so it takes different things for different kids. With the above-mentioned daughter, a swat didn't make a difference either so I quickly gave it up. Some kids simply have to learn things the hard way. This is a child who I swatted and she laughed and looked at me dead in the eye and said "that didn't hurt". Which, of course, it didn't as that wasn't the intention.

Of course, she is the one who was swatted on more than one occasion for playing with the electrical plugs. She was very dextrous as a toddler and could get the safety covers off in a blink. Swatting didn't phase her one bit but the day she stuck a key in the plug - that was the last time she played with the plugs.

My oldest, on the other hand, was much more sensitive to disapproval. The evil eye was often enough to stop her in her tracks. I see a swat on the bum as one tool in a parent's arsenal - not one to be used constantly and for everything. But parents have to have some control over their children and I think the horrible generation we're seeing now is from taking away spanking and just about any other form of discipline.

Children should have some fear of their parents. We're not their friends or their babysitters. Without a healthy dose of fear of punishment, a child runs wild. Not overwhelming fear, obviously, but the old fashioned, "oh, crap, my parents are going to kill me for this" fear - because they know they will be getting disciplined. If a swat on the hind end when they're three instills that respect and fear, then by God, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Tina

[ThomM]

How about in front of the child, the adult
puts his or her hand on the hot stove briefly
so that it at least blisters the skin a little bit,
taking your hand off with a bloody great,
'Ow'! - right in front of the child, to prove
your point that it's bloody hot and hurts
when you touch it?

My half brother was 30 years older then me and had a daughter 2 years older then me so I spent some time at his place.
One day his wife was cooking and I kept touching things on the stove.
After repeatedly warning me the stove was hot she finally took my hand and held it over a lit burner long enough for me to get the idea.
Not saying what she did was right or wrong, but I am saying I never messed around with the stove again.
BTW I also spent many years as a professional chef so there wasn't any trauma from that, just the memory
IF she had done what you suggest I would have laughed and kept on playing with the stove.
On the other hand that would of worked with any of my daughters (maybe girls really are smarter).

[tryinhere]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Your parents' views on discipline and how to administer it are not every parents' views on discipline and how to administer it. Your dogs and how you train them are not everyone's dogs and how they train them.

There is no way you can say that without a doubt not spanking works in every situation with every child. I have already stated that every child does not need spanking, but some do.

Not having discipline or the ability to leaves a society with children that are not worried about consequences. And yes, discipline doesnt always mean physical negative reinforcement, but sometimes it does.

Thank you for your feedback and I respect your view point.

Currently i am organising buying some toys here for Christmas presents for kids / families that are down on their luck this year that will be part of a car club Santa run where the toys will be given to a local charity organisation for distribution on Christmas day.

I tend to buy more than i should trying to help that extra little tiger or angel, but as i have seen so many caring parents here, can i ask that each person looks in their own community, is there one charity or child you can help bring a smile to this Christmas ? if so please help where you can

As worriers we will not change the world but each one of us can make a small change and united as a group it would be nice to say hey the warrior team work hard all year then, put aside any differences at this one special times to make this special time magic for the children. and if you can bring one more smile its like adding another ray of sunshine.

Pete

[HeySal]

A swat on the butt teaches degrees of wrong and danger. My parents only hit me twice and I remember both times - once it was because I rode my tricycle down the middle line of a road where cars came around the curb 60 miles an hour. They wanted me to get the point that "NO" wasn't maybe no, or we'll talk about it "no" - or anything else - it meant absolutely, definitely, without a doubt don't even THINK about it. Had they used their normal, talking to, send me to my room, etc, I may have thought it was something I could slide the lines on....and may have died for thinking so.

On the other hand - I was playing with a friend in a sandbox one day and her little sister got sand in her eye - her mom blamed me without even asking and brought out a belt. It scared me to death to think of being hit with that thing and I ran home and told my mommy real fast. My mother was over there with that bitch pinned to the door telling her that she'd be the one in the real hurt if she ever touched me.

Now years later - I can still respect my parents for having spanked me for going out in the road like that --- but I ran into the other woman after I was an adult and I got right in her face and asked if she thought she still wanted to belt me. I came very close to wiping the floor with her.

There are degrees of wrong and we must respond with degrees of punishment - spanking should not injure, that is abuse, but if the "crime" is extremely serious, a kid has to know that it is serious.

As far as injuring yourself to teach a kid? You are freaking serious? LMAO. Okay, whatever. Humans learn by experience. A kid touches a hot burner - they get a life long lesson at the price of a little owey. That's life. I had a jack-knife my parents showed me how to use....I sliced all four fingers one day. I was told "that wasn't real smart, was it?". I never cut myself again like that. What would my reaction have been if my dad had sliced his own finger to show me what the blade would do? Cripes that would have freaked me out to no eternity... too strange. Kids hurt themselves. You can't protect them from everything or you end up with babies who have no clue how to do anything for themselves as adults. Life's rough. My parents let me hurt myself and I can go out into the wilds and survive now. Had I been protected all my life I'm betting I wouldn't have survived out there a few times when a little discomfort was necessary to save my own rear.

You can only go so far, until indulgence is more dangerous than a little bit of ouch....(and I'm not talking about beating, so don't go there).

I'm wondering right now if the dude that set that wildfire not far from here this summer had a daddy who burned his own hand on a flame instead of letting the kid learn for himself. Good grief.

[HeySal]

TRYINGHERE - PETE

What you experienced is not what the average child experiences.
What happened to you is just sick and twisted and there was nothing even resembling what most people consider spanking.

It is understandable that you feel the way you do under the circumstances. Even though my parents swatted me a couple of times I still knew the difference between those swats and seeing that belt in that bitch's hand, and I was only three at the time - it traumatized me bad enough to remember it to actually have to be held back from her when I ran into again and happened to be bigger and stronger.

Most kids, thank God, never experience the violence you did and don't look back and see a spanking as any real upset later in life as you feel when you look back. I can't imagine for one minute in my life, and really hope I never can, what it was like to live in those conditions. My parents spanked me, but only a few times, and never hard enough that I ever had fear of them. I knew when I got the spanking that I had done something much worse than I had realized and the thought of what I had done scared me seeing the severe reaction they had to it. It wasn't normal for them so I knew it was REALLY bad. I was a brave little tyke and am real glad that I learned right then and there not to even think about transgressing again because I could have died. They did the right thing.

As I said......too much indulgence is just as harmful as too much brutality in its own way, but not physically. Brutality not only damages the physical body - it leaves the kid with no descretion.
Kids who are hit all the time never learn any degrees of wrong and everything they do is just as bad or dangerous as everything else. Refusing to clam up when told and running in the road are all the same, so you can't tell where the kid will think that a rule can be stretched and where it is dangerous to do so. They build no judgment skills, just fear or worse, disconcern for anything.

The same is true of those who are over indulgent. They continue to say no, the kid continues to act up. ...they never learn to listen to anyone and are on their own logic to decide when they cross the line that can't safely be crossed. They also learn no judgment.

Both children are at risk - the one who is brutalized is at double the risk. There is no love in abuse.......in a light swat, there is usually much love, as well as much concern.

I am so sorry for what you went through. I am sure it makes you just quiver inside every time you even suspect a parent is ready to slap a kid. I am very glad you have not continued this cycle of cruelty and abuse...many do. I also hope that your trauma doesn't allow you to indulge your children to points that put them in danger. You won't always be there to insist on "no" - they HAVE to know what lines are fatal to cross. They won't learn if you are over protective.....they won't learn if you are overly indulgent.

If you find your own kids acting uncontrollably, I hope for both of your sakes you seek a good counselor to help with discipline decisions. Don't let your own trauma endanger your children. Don't let having to deal with discipline traumatize you either.

And just remember that if there weren't monsters like the ones you grew up under, conversations like these would never even be dreamed of.