Spanking children - yes or no?

[Michael Motley]

Im involved in a discussion here at work about spanking children. Some say that its just unheard of to spank a child and should never be done. I am on the other side of the fence and think that spanking is not beating its a form of discipline and there's nothing wrong with a little swat on the butt to get reinforce a point.

I'd like to hear from some parents on this.

[kwalters]

I do not spank my children and the are very well behaved and respectful kids.

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I'd like to hear from some parents on this.

Not from some children?

[TLTheLiberator]

Sometimes young kids just don't get it.

I've never touched by kid except when she was under 3 and I wanted to make sure she would not go near and/or try to play with the stove.

I asked her if she knew what pain/hurt was and she replied that she didn't know, so I gave her a nice swat on the hand to explain.

She winced but then slyly smiled as if she got it.

I asked her if she understood and she said yes.

Then I small took a piece of paper and burnt it up in front of her and told her that is what would happen to her if fire got a hold of her.

I never found here playing anywhere near the stove anymore.

There was 2 lines in our linoleum for that happened to mark the no kid zone around the stove and sometimes when I was cooking something she would act as if she wanted to come across the line drawn in the sand.

Other than that, we've never touched her, but the wife has threatened on many occasions. ( it's not gana happen )

TL

[Kay King]

Interesting question as people seem come down on this issue as either right or wrong. I always thought spanking a good deterrent but not an effective punishment.

Not long ago I was at a young friend's home where her young'un just kept reaching toward the hot stove. I lost count of how many times this young mother said "no, don't touch" and tried to explain the concept of "hot" to a kid not quite 2 yrs old. At the same time she was constantly physically stopping the kid from touching the stove - and it was only the outside of the oven door. It became a game to him because he got attention.

When I was raising my sons, I would have done one of two things:

1. let the child touch once while you say "hot" and he'll learn quickly
2. one swat to let the child know that "no" means "no"

There are times when reasoning with a toddler makes no sense in the big scheme of things. If a child wanders into the street - you need to get his attention NOW and it may take a spank to do that effectively. I'd rather hurt his little psyche than have him hit by a car.

If a child was, as above, reaching out to touch the outside of a heated oven, it's one thing. If he is reaching for a pot cooking on the stove, it's different.

My rule was that every spanking or any other discipline was followed afterwards by a hug to show they were still loved.

There is a lot of judgment floating around in the child raising arena - and I guess that is normal. I saw a TV show yesterday where a woman claimed boldly that any mother who wanted to work instead of stay home full-time should not have children. Easy to say when someone else pays all your bills but the woman didn't consider that.

The most idealistic parents - the ones with all the answers - have usually not yet dealt with the terrible twos.

kay

[Michael Oksa]

I used to get spanked a LOT when I was younger, and I can say it didn't do any good. I got into a lot of trouble in my teen years.

And if spanking "works" why is that I had to KEEP getting spanked? I know somebody that spanks their kids all the time, and the kids are little brats.

I spanked my youngest once, because it was needed. It wasn't a severe paddling, but enough to get the message across. And many people say my child is very well-behaved, respectful, and a great kid (and that includes other parents, not just grandma and grandpa).

Spanking shouldn't be the punishment of choice. But it can be applied judiciously to great effect.

I will still spank my youngest if needed, but now grounding from TV or the computer does the trick. Also, soanking should only be done if the kids truly needs it, not because the parent is angry and can't handle the situation.

All the best,
Michael

[Dan C. Rinnert]

When I was back in grade school, teachers were allowed to spank students that got too far out of line.

A friend of mine was spanked one time for something. Turned out later (like shortly after the spanking), that he hadn't actually done the thing for which he was spanked. I think the other kid fessed up or someone else ratted him out after finding out the wrong kid was spanked.

The teacher apologized, but it's kind of hard to undo a spanking, you know?

* * *

Many years ago, a woman and her child were in my place of work. She was using the copier, while her kid played around with the sorting trays. And, by "played around", I mean that he was smacking them around like sorting trays should not be smacked around.

The mother would say stuff like "Stop that." or "Don't do that." But, he'd go right back to it.

Finally, the owner went up to the woman and told her how much it would cost to repair or replace that sorting unit if it were broken.

The next time the kid smacked the trays, he got smacked himself.

He didn't repeat the behavior.

* * *

There are other examples, but I think two will suffice. So, I've seen both sides of it. Bottom line is that I don't think there is a one-size fits all approach to it. Parents have to do what works with the child. Some kids just don't listen and a spanking is the only thing that will get their attention. Just be careful not to jump to judgment of course!

[TLTheLiberator]

Who remembers the first time their child bucked and said no???


TL

[Fernando Veloso]

I give my oldest kid "the" sanctions cause i find it more effective then any slap in the butt.

No Playstaion
No laptop (yep!!! 4 year old dominates 1 laptop)
No movies
etc etc

[wirelessgeek]

I don't have kids myself, so I'm no expert, but I think a paddle on the bottom is okay if the kid is real young, 5 or less, and you need to get their attention. I mean, not so hard you're causing bruises or welts, because it is easy to cross the line into child abuse.

[KimW]

Tina,
"I also rarely raised my voice so when I did, it was like EF Hutton speaking - everyone shut up."

That's how I was too. All my kids needed to hear was a rather loud "Thats enough!"
and it would stop them in their tracks. I rarely raised my voice but when I did they knew I meant business.

[Michael Oksa]

Yep, an infrequent raised voice, a certain tone, or even the right look does the trick most of the time. But, once you use spanking as the punishment of choice, where do you go from there? Harder spankings?

If "the look" doesn't work you can move on to a different tone if the kid doesn't listen. Then you can go to raising your voice, and then a spanking if needed.

On the other hand, there are cases where you don't have the time to go through the punishment continuum - where a deliberate spanking has to be done...now.

As mentioned, my mom would spank us all the time, and I don't think it helped. My dad only spanked me once. I was running into the road with oncoming traffic. I was maybe 3, but the lesson stuck.

I'm glad corporal punishment has gone away (for the most part). Only a parent should decide when a spanking is necessary.

~M~

[Kay King]

This thread brought back memories:

My Mother used an old-fashioned flyswatter to keep my boys in line when they were at her house. To my knowledge, the flyswatter never touched either of them but the threat of reaching inside the door to the basement to "get the flyswatter" was enough to stop them in their tracks. My 98 lb mother was in total control.

I am not one who shouts or raises their voice often. Usually, the angrier I get the softer my voice is.

When my younger son was about 10 I overheard him talking to his friend out on the deck. The other little boy had said "I like your Mom - she doesn't yell at you all the time" and my son replied "No, but when she talks soft you better listen real loud".

Priceless!

EDIT: I'm not anti-spanking but I am against using anything other than your bare hand. Reason is simple - you don't know how it feels to your child unless you feel it, too.

[Patrician]

I am vehemently opposed to hitting anybody especially a child or an animal.

It sends completely the wrong message that the way to deal with conflict is by violence.

It is someone bigger hitting someone smaller - it makes them feel victimized - and the victim often becomes the oppressor/abuser in later life.

I may have 'hauled off' and smacked my son once or twice at the most and the last time he put his dukes up which scared the hell out of me - so I remembered to control myself from there on.

There should be a relationship between you and your kids where they listen to what you tell them to do. It's called respect and trust. Both are earned.

(not saying I knew how to do this but that would be the ideal).

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Only a parent should decide when a spanking is necessary.

~M~

The problem is that parents dont.

[ThomM]

I spanked my youngest when she was around 3 to 5.
It was used more to get her attention then as a punishment.
I never, ever spanked her when I was angry and actually would spank her harder when we played then I ever did when it was part of getting her attention. By the way she laughed when I spanked her playing, yet cried when it was to get her attention because she knew a lecture and punishment where at hand.
I rarely yelled at any of the girls, but they all knew if I told them to stop doing something I only told them once. The second time I would get up and escort them to their room or the car if we where out.
If they did something that required a punishment, we would sit and talk about it so they understood what they did was wrong.Weather there was a punishment after that depended on what they did and how the talk went.
One rule we had with that was if anyone involved was angry they would go to their room until they where calm and then talk.
That rule included me and the wife.

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

The problem is that parents dont.

Some parents do, as this thread shows. You can't make blanket statements like that.

But it doesn't matter.

If a parent decides that their child should NEVER be spanked, then the school shouldn't do it.

First you say that parents should be responsible. Then you say schools should be? Maybe it's not Steve that needs the Ritalin.

~M~

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Some parents do, as this thread shows. You can't make blanket statements like that.

But it doesn't matter.

If a parent decides that their child should NEVER be spanked, then the school shouldn't do it.

First you say that parents should be responsible. Then you say schools should be? Maybe it's not Steve that needs the Ritalin.

~M~

If the parents raise their child right, then they wont be. If you dont do your job as a parent and not raise a little heathern, then you dont get to tell everyone else in the world they just have to put up with the little monster. If you dont square them away, the world will.

No, im not saying schools SHOULD be, but if mom and dad dont do the job, schools will, even though its not their job to begin with.

[specters]

Well ever heard of the concept of "playing", this discipline is obviously an example and if you look at psychoanalysis the super-ego gets inflated in violently (more) disciplined children to the point where they will break down if they don't accomplish important tasks, but the problem is that people are never satisfied. So it can be verbal or physical, but I abide with a more academic, showing possible routes and consequences, making it interesting, unpredictable, stimulating, even fun to learn to have "responsibility". Adults are basically overgrown babies that need a government, bosses, money market, media to watch over them, and they fight, spaz out, skip work, do illegal things etc. The only way we will ever have world peace is if parents stop hitting their children. Hitler or Mahatma Gandhi?

[Jason_V]

Spanking is only used as a complete last resort.

As many have said if you use it all the time, it loses its effectiveness. I probably feel worse than they do if I actually do have to spank them. Thankfully, I've only ever had to do it 3 times.

One mistake I know a lot of parents make, they make threats then don't carry out with them or make ambiguous threats.

If you say something like:

"If you don't stop, I'm going to turn this car around."

if they don't stop, you better turn the car around. Otherwise, they'll learn that you don't mean business when you say something. (I truly believe this is where most parents go wrong.)

An example of an ambiguous threat is something like:

"Keep that up and see what happens!"

No, you have to tell them EXACTLY what's going to happen if they keep it up. Then of course actually follow through with it.

I definitely agree with the notion that if you spank, don't do it out of anger. That's just completely wrong.

[Michael Motley]

How can a child be 'just plain bad' unless it is directly because of their environment. And when it comes to early development, who is in charge of their environment?

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by specters

Well ever heard of the concept of "playing", this discipline is obviously an example and if you look at psychoanalysis the super-ego gets inflated in violently (more) disciplined children to the point where they will break down if they don't accomplish important tasks, but the problem is that people are never satisfied. So it can be verbal or physical, but I abide with a more academic, showing possible routes and consequences, making it interesting, unpredictable, stimulating, even fun to learn to have "responsibility". Adults are basically overgrown babies that need a government, bosses, money market, media to watch over them, and they fight, spaz out, skip work, do illegal things etc. The only way we will ever have world peace is if parents stop hitting their children. Hitler or Mahatma Gandhi?

so the reason we are at war is because parents spank their kids? And if we stop spanking kids, we will magically stop having war, because we will no longer need resources, and people will no longer kill other people?

Wow, what a spectacular world this would be...lets get this out to all parents...NO MORE SPANKINGS!!....FOR WORLD PEACE!!

[MikeAmbrosio]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

How can a child be 'just plain bad' unless it is directly because of their environment. And when it comes to early development, who is in charge of their environment?

First of all, there's all kinds of "bad". Second, it's not always about environment.

Case in point, my wife comes from a "typical" family. Parents are still married to this day. Growing up, there was family dinner every night at 6. Family discussions during dinner. Family nights out. Lived in an upper middle class home, great neighbors.

Father not abusive, nor a drunk. Mother used to help her brothers make home movies to fuel their ambitions and imaginations. Church goers...

They even had family dogs.

None ever got spanked, had good communication all around.

One of the three (not my wife) became a raging alcoholic. Another (not my wife) had severe drug addiction problems for 20 plus years. Which also led to some small time criminal activity to fund it.

My in-laws beat themselves up for years wondering where they went "wrong".

They realize now they didn't. Both started their problems after leaving home. Which gos to show that you can raise good kids, but that doesn't mean they will be good adults.

If you read up on some serial killers through the years you will probably find much of the same thing I described above in their early childhood years.

So, while I do believe that parents are a LARGE cause of the way kids behave, it's not always so cut and dried.

[seriousmny]

Spankings were popular in my house. I received my last spanking probably in the 6th grade. I forgot to clean my room. I remember my dad warning me several times before he went to work but I just plain forgot and went outside to play. Next thing I knew, dad was home from work and that room was not clean.

My dad called me inside and put a belt to my hind quarters for not cleaning my room, all the while my window was open and my friends heard everything. I had to go outside afterward to tell them I had to clean my room and I was teased something terrible.

I did not spank my child. I regret it. She has been a very difficult individual to deal and was quite disrespectful. I was briefly married to her father and he had no input in the parenting due to his elective absence. I was mostly was a single parent and it was difficult. She elected to learn from life by "experiencing life" rather than listening to reason. In fact, she did put her hand on the stove to find out it was hot after I told her it was hot at the age of 5 or 6. She was just that stubborn.

She is now a young lady of 19 years old and has found it hard to socialize with others because I did not reinforce consequences to breaking home rules and bad behavior. She just never listened when I told her people are not going to put up with your crap.

It has taken a couple of threats and beat downs for her to realize...hey..these folks are serious and I need to get a grip. I guess that's another one of her "living my experience" things. I listened to my parents, respected them, and very rarely did I go against the things they were trying to tell me. I have always erred on the side of caution.

In the end, I think careful use of spankings is needed but not in anger. Children need guidance and correction. We cannot be out children's buddy. The correctional system subjects it's felons to rape, beatings, and all sorts of horrors.

I think that a spanking in childhood to prevent them from landing there is not out of order and should be enforced because once they land in the US correctional system, they are free game to all types of predators and no one feels sorry for them then.

That rod will drive all foolishness away and save them from undue trauma later in life. It also teaches them consequences.

On a positive note, now that my daughter has grown up some and experienced consequences, we get along a whole lot better and she asks me how I dealt with her stinky attitude and realizes she was mistaken about a great many things.

My greatest regret is that I only was able to have 1 child so I could get a second chance to "get it right" so to speak from a parent's perspective.

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

First of all, there's all kinds of "bad". Second, it's not always about environment.

Case in point, my wife comes from a "typical" family. Parents are still married to this day. Growing up, there was family dinner every night at 6. Family discussions during dinner. Family nights out. Lived in an upper middle class home, great neighbors.

Father not abusive, nor a drunk. Mother used to help her brothers make home movies to fuel their ambitions and imaginations. Church goers...

They even had family dogs.

None ever got spanked, had good communication all around.

One of the three (not my wife) became a raging alcoholic. Another (not my wife) had severe drug addiction problems for 20 plus years. Which also led to some small time criminal activity to fund it.

My in-laws beat themselves up for years wondering where they went "wrong".

They realize now they didn't. Both started their problems after leaving home. Which gos to show that you can raise good kids, but that doesn't mean they will be good adults.

If you read up on some serial killers through the years you will probably find much of the same thing I described above in their early childhood years.

So, while I do believe that parents are a LARGE cause of the way kids behave, it's not always so cut and dried.

You look like you are a good guy, nice family. Do you think your son will be a bum? drug addict?..etc.? probably not. Why? because in the future when he comes to the point that he's in a situation where he is going to make a decision that is going to effect his future. He's going to be offered drugs, or drink or buddies will want him to go do something illegal. And the decision he makes is going to be based around the moral foundation laid down by mom and dad. Because you are a good person (atleast appear to be) the foundation you are laying right now will lead him in the right direction and it wouldnt matter what anyone else said...his mom and dad raised him right and he knows the correct decision.

[MikeAmbrosio]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

You look like you are a good guy, nice family. Do you think your son will be a bum? drug addict?..etc.? probably not. Why? because in the future when he comes to the point that he's in a situation where he is going to make a decision that is going to effect his future. He's going to be offered drugs, or drink or buddies will want him to go do something illegal. And the decision he makes is going to be based around the moral foundation laid down by mom and dad. Because you are a good person (atleast appear to be) the foundation you are laying right now will lead him in the right direction and it wouldnt matter what anyone else said...his mom and dad raised him right and he knows the correct decision.

You are right.

My point was simply this...no matter HOW good you are, HOW good the foundation is, there are no guarantees.

Kids don't come with warranties.

Statistic I read years ago: kids who have an active father figure in their life are 60% less likely to get involved with drugs, crime etc.

Well that's all nice. But that leaves another 40% with active father figures who WILL get involved with drugs, crime, etc.

The best you can to is to do your best. This will increase your odds.

There's the other side too...

I was raised pretty much without a father. Absentee. And a mother who had great intentions, but had to work 3 jobs due to absentee father.

From the time I was 12, I was pretty much making decisions I should not have been making.

By 13, I lost my virginity, started smoking cigarettes, pot, drinking and even driving cars.

I even stole a car once.

But by the time I was 17, common sense kicked in. Pretty much stopped with the stupid stuff. Started taking care of my little sister so she would not make the same mistakes I did.

Today, I am pretty straight-laced. I drink MAYBE 5 beers a year.

My 2 oldest sons (21 and 19) DO come tome when they need advice, etc.

They both do stupid things too - just not as stupid as the things I did.

Never had to raise a hand to them, but I always let them know it was a possibility. They respected my glare

No guarantees.

[ThomM]

One mistake I know a lot of parents make, they make threats then don't carry out with them or make ambiguous threats.

So you knew my last wife?
She was a fantastic person and loved her girls, but that was her one fault.
Her girls knew it too.
Her first husband (the girls father) was worse.
If any of the girls cried he would just yell at their mother to shut them up.
The girls learned early if they wanted something crying worked, until they moved in with me and I became the step dad
The first time one of the girls tried that with me, I put my arm around her shoulders and walked her to her room.
As I left her room I told her she could come out when she stopped crying.
She came out right away crying, so I walked her right back to her room repeating the instructions.
When she came out later she looked at me and said "the crying isn't going to work with you is it?".
I just smiled.

As a side note, I knew all three of my last wife's daughters from the day each was born.
Because their father was a drunk, they had all been treating me as their father long before we started living together so there wasn't any problems from the 'new guy' trying to be their dad.
To this day (the girls are 29, 27, and 21) they all still consider me their 'dad'.

[Amy Hainz]

My parents spanked us as children. They never did it just because they were upset at us.

I have 1 child and we spank her sometimes. There is a difference between spanking and beating a child. If you leave bruises on the child, that is beating. I have to agree with an earlier comment about young children sometimes not understanding and sometimes spanking is the best way to punish.

We try and punish in several ways. Sometimes one works and the other doesn't. It also depends on the child. Some children are more hard headed and grounding them from something might just not work with them.

Each person should choose how to discpline their own children. As long as they're not leaving bruises and spanking to be spanking, I see nothing wrong with it.

[MikeAmbrosio]

Punishment isn't really all that hard (most of the time). If you start "training them" young.

All you need to do is find that ONE thing that will make them actually feel punished.

I have a 3-strike rule. My 6 year old has never gone past strike 2 (yet). My 2 older ones were a different story

My oldest HAD to be doing stuff at all times. Never one to sit, he was always outside playing with his friends. It was tough just to get him inside to eat dinner. His "punishment" was easy - sitting on my bed, no T.V., no nothing for a pre-determined period of time (depending on the offense).

My next oldest LOVED video games (Nintendo 64 back then). Had to pry the remote from his fingers on nice days (had a policy about that too - nice days, outside!). So HIS punishment was easy also.

The final key is to ALWAYS follow through with what you say.

Warning 1 - Knock that off right now...

Warning 2 - Strike 2. Do that again and you will sit on my bed for the next 20 minutes while all your friends are playing.

Strike 3 - Ok, you were warned. (execute punishment).

It's a simple formula that worked for me very well. Only had to get to strike 3 a few times each.

My step daughter is a different story. All my wife has to do is give a certain look and she melts. She is a sweet kid.

[MissDarling]

OMG!!! After working in a public school system filled with kids that know no discipline I say let's bring back the wooden spoon!! The problem is, many people just can't find a balance with disciplinary tactics. Seriously, a nice big wooden spoon can work wonders for one kid while it's absolutely not the way to go for another.

It would be truly amazing if common sense could be used more commonly to decide if a kid needs a good old fashioned whipping with a big fat switch that they had to go look for in the woods on their own.

lol.... memories!!!

I also would like to add if you say you are going to do something you better do it before the bar gets raised on you and you have to keep striking to get your point across.

[check_itjess]

hi newbie here...

i think it would be best if you spank your children...for them to be respectful. not totally beat them to death...me, personally i experience being spank by my father...and it made me respectful and disciplined person.

[Ken Shorey]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

My dad only spanked me once. I was running into the road with oncoming traffic. I was maybe 3, but the lesson stuck.


~M~

Enough said.

[Kenster]

Spanking is great for some kids and horrible with others. Parenting must be flexible because all children and all people are different, so you must adapt your parenting style and methods depending on your child.

I know for me, spaking was the only thing that worked. It only happened a few times, but thats the point, I learned not to do things because there was that fear there...I was a little devil growing up

for others spanking doesnt work at all. It can have negative consequences.

Spanking children - yes or no? DEPENDS


ps, i dont mean beating or injuring your child...spanking is more dramatic than physical

[Emily Meeks]

I got spanked a few times when I was a kid, but that was before my dad left when I was 11. It was the only "real" discipline I ever got, which I can count on one hand.

I really didn't get squat from my parents. Of course, neither of them are particularly good people to be around.

My dad was an abusive, sociopathic narcissist who's completely incapable of empathizing with another human being. I have a strict rule with sociopaths - there is NO hope for them, so don't energy on them except to keep them as far away as possible. He's been out of my life since I was 12, and there's been no reason to bring him back.

My mother played the martyr all her life - as bad as my dad was to her, he can only be blamed for so much. They've been divorced for years. I could never develop a true mother/daughter bond with her - she used everything I said against me (I remember being six and complaining that everything I said was used against me later), lied to me, lied about me, read my journals without any good reason, told friends and family she didn't have faith in me and repeatedly stabbed me in the back. We have nothing in common and even though she "loves" me, she hates everything that I'm about. Worst of all, I have THE most amazing man who's gone above and beyond the call of duty of a boyfriend, and who I plan to marry in a year - and for her own selfish, jealous reasons, she hates him.

I just recently got out of her house. First I wondered what to do about money, but I have much greater plans than ever and for the first time in years my life's been on track.

People ask me if I want to "make up with my parents one day". "Making up" implies there was a relationship that was damaged. Both of them have trails of negative energy, for their own reasons. One parent's issues are more concrete while the other's are more abstract, but neither are good people. It's sad that neither of my biological parents have a place in my life... but it is what it is.

I have to say I was lucky, though. I'm entirely self-made. I learned from my own mistakes. I figure things out for myself. I'm the most ambitious person I know. I don't doubt whether or not I can get through things, I merely get annoyed that I have to get through it. I still make mistakes - some of them outright stupid - but I make a point to learn from them all the time. I do all this and more without the help (or now, hinderances) of my biological parents.

That said...

Punishment should not so much be out of anger but teaching the consequences of one's actions. This includes spanking. Show as much unconditional love to your child as you can. Even if her aspirations don't quite match yours. Even if he has purple hair. In the end, your children decide their own paths - their odds of success greatly increase with your guidance, support and undying love.

[steveblum]

My wife and I decided not to spank but instead use the time-out option. You have to be consistent or it doesn't work. Sometimes you feel like a spanking is the only option, especially when they don't listen - but to this day with a 2 year old - no spankings.

[tryinhere]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Im involved in a discussion here at work about spanking children. Some say that its just unheard of to spank a child and should never be done. I am on the other side of the fence and think that spanking is not beating its a form of discipline and there's nothing wrong with a little swat on the butt to get reinforce a point.
I'd like to hear from some parents on this.

Where is the line between a tap and a beating, who decides where that line is ? the person doing the beating.

So many people think they know where the line is and yet have no idea, even a no mark policy is crap, what about emotional scares that may never heal.

[donnyg18]

Just read something about it and it is as well being debated.

"Spanking is one of the most controversial discipline methods. On one side of the debate are parents who believe it is all right to spank their children. On the other side are those who think that children should never be spanked. Somewhere in the middle are parents who believe that spanking should only be used in particular instances (e.g., when the child runs into the street). Part of the reason for the debate is that parents and experts often define spanking differently. To some, spanking means "slapping a child on the buttocks", while others consider spanking a generic term for any corporal punishment that does not cause an injury, such as slapping a child's hand for touching something forbidden or dangerous."

Can't seem to think of anything right now myself but the thought made me wonder as well

[archiebunk]

OK, You go into a store and you have a child that you spoiled all his or her life, when every time it held out it's hand and went ahah, you gave it what ever they wanted. And if you didn't give this child everything they wanted they started to scream at the top of their lungs until you give it to them. And of couse you give it to them because he or she is your sweet little darling, and you can't stand the screaming. The older they get the more they know that if they scream louder and louder, you will give it to them. Of course their your sweet little baby. IT GETS OUT OF HAND. When you go into this store and your wonderful child is screaming their heads off. "Oh sweety please don't scream like that". Baloney, that don't work. What that kid needs is a good swat on the butt. It affects all the other people in the store. It has happen in the past that someone else has grabbed a child that was'nt theirs and gave them a swat on the butt. I'm not saying that someone else should do this but goes to show what a lot of people are thinking. There were times when some screaming little brat was making so much noise, I would liked to have spanked their butts, while their parents were saying "honey, sweety, please do sream". And I'll bet that after a stranger grabed that child and spanked its butt that child would think twice about screaming in a store again. When words don't work, it's time, and they need a good swat on the butt.
ARCHIE

[Sandy Hands]

Something done - can not be undone. Maintenance is not undoing, it is applying enough layers so that what was done fades to obscurity (or to less importance than the replacement).

From an early age (perhaps 6 or 7 from memory), I fought for "kid power" and "child liberation." As a parent of 5 (3 girls, 2 boys), I find myself now fighting for parent's rights. Be careful what you wish for comes to mind......

The question of right or wrong can only be answered in context of the event. It is an over simplification to say it is right or wrong to discipline children via a spanking.

Parents are not perfect - kids are not perfect. We educate ourselves via many avenues and journeys - there are no prerequisite courses or licenses required for being a parent.

Social norms and cultural backgrounds influence many of our opinions and actions. Ideas and concepts float with evolution. What we do changes. For better or worse is a question best left to your own counsel to determine. The purpose of posting is not to be judgmental in the sense of imperfect actions, but to acknowledge that every individual situation has some unique influences and qualities which make it practicably impossible to apply unilateral governance - even if, as a society we choose to set the legal boundaries by the governing thought of the socially loud minority.

The personal injustices I witnessed and received as a child were considered "normal" for the time. I will not elaborate on the extensiveness of these events or how they shaped my crusade for "kids rights," other than to say, broom handles with staples used over bare knuckles and calf muscles did very little for me, other than to arouse a keen sense of injustice. Watching adults physically kick students around a classroom remains etched in my memory. Listening to the news over 20 years ago and hearing of an abusive father who made his 3 year old daughter eat her own vomit, after continually beating her - still makes sickens me to the core. Receiving a belting at age 4, I can recall the horror, the fright, the mood and the movement of the arm and belt - I do not recall the reason or the lesson - but I am sure there was one.

The problem with discipline is not the application, but the contorted and indefensible actions that were born from an incorrect assumption or accusation. Simply - the punishment in many situations does not fit the crime.

Parents defend their actions by justifying it against predetermined patterns of behavior that have some escalating characteristics. The proverbial volcano approach that is the result of habit more than good management or sound parenting. We use the tools we developed to carve the journey. Whether those tools are adequate or not, is a constant question posed in many minds that are searching for redemption.

For many others, they are the cupboard full of skeletons that evoke a continual acupuncture of the brain - piece by piece the jigsaw gets distorted and rearranged - a living mosaic of yesterday’s actions against today’s backdrop.

Some would argue that a spanking is forgotten long before the mental anguish of psychological manipulation or verbal abuse.

For me, its pretty simple. My grandmother (rest in peace), always treated children as “little people.” In other words, her actions and discussion were always centered on making each child the most important person in the world for the duration of whatever activity was taking place. Her complete and undivided attention with paramount honesty was direct, involved and unconditional. The maturity of that approach was something I never really understood until much later in life. The rest of the world could be caving in around me, but knowing that one person treated me as a “real person” was enough to grab hold of and claw a future from the jaws of defeat.

To her, we were people first and children second. I can not tell you how much her actions saved me from myself and from leading a life of “socially acceptable, but morally questionable” behavior.

I try and fail every day as a parent in many ways. At the end of that day, I make a promise to myself, to be a little bit better tomorrow.

You really do not know what your children will remember or not remember. When they are sitting with their friends 30 years from now, how will they remember their childhood and what will influence them to be the best person they can be? A memory pierced with punishment, a memory of challenges and victories, a memory of smiles and adventures? A memory that someone cared about them and treated them with consistency and respect?

The answer is probably an overwhelming combination of everything, yet the most poignant memories will be those that pierced their heart. Situations of great triumph and of great injustice. Menial actions that are part of routine consistency help shape our character, but are not always, and perhaps even rarely, part of our vivid and relived memories.

Discipline does not have to equate to abuse - the root of evil in this temperament is the lack of consistency and varying perception of how behaviors were interpreted by both parties. Too often as parents we are judge, jury and implementer - with no right of recourse to the inflicted party. We lash out with default actions that are akin to primal instinctive behaviors in animals. We correct actions we perceive as needing correcting based on our own ideology and social norms as opposed to those that are governing our children.

I look and wonder whether a lack of discipline and consequential actions are responsible for many less than acceptable behaviors in our children. Then I think back to the school yard and wishing for a better life for kids. Then I remember that we have more information about our kids and their activities, than at anytime in history. Perhaps ignorance is bliss........

We are evolving to something better all the time (each generation is quoted as saying they would like to have been at school and had the opportunities that their children now have). The hard part as relics is to understand we are making way for the new. Our role is to support that process and offer our most constructive attributes if what we seek is the most successful outcomes. We put people on the earth to become themselves, not become manifestos of our own self imposed importance.

If you can look in a mirror with your child standing behind you, and truthfully say that you have treated them as you would like to have been treated yourself, then you are very close to finding the answers for your own situation.

A child will look for the best in a person until proven that it does not exist. If more adults could do the same, I wonder how the world would be?

Abuse of any type is justified and defended after the event, not before it. Discipline on the other hand is a premeditated course of action with distinctive consistency. Parents can be quick to dole out punishment as a consequence of discipline, yet deliver it with an abusive wrapper. I often question my own actions to determine if the rewards are dished out in equal distribution or at least with equal consideration and intent, as the punishment.

Children are born survivors. Adults are emotionally frail and loaded with contempt, and self deceit. It is quicker to administer a fix of “punishment” under the guise of discipline, than it is to plan parenting activities.

Who can blame parents? Food, house, bills, work, promotions, friends, partners, travel, sport etc - where’s the time to learn parenting? Who needs to? Who cares to? Where is the time to be a better parent - oh yeah! Tomorrow........ Amazing how many parents turn into fantastic grand parents................

There are no right or wrong answers. I am not advocating one rule fits all. If nothing else, writing down some thoughts caused me to take a close look at how I parent - - again.... If that leads to making better decisions tomorrow - then a huge thank you to Michael for starting the thread.

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by tryinhere

Where is the line between a tap and a beating, who decides where that line is ? the person doing the beating.

So many people think they know where the line is and yet have no idea, even a no mark policy is crap, what about emotional scares that may never heal.

I'm pretty sure that the generation upon generation before today's kids that were beaten and 'emotionally scarred' were somehow able to recover from this no doubt traumatizing event and were amazingly able to carry on with their lives and were to become productive citizens.

amazing.

[Star Riley]

I think everyone but children should be spanked after all its not kids that let adults down its we who let them down.

We lie and tell them its wrong! Ever heard of Santa Clause delivering gifts?

We cheat and steal or lie about cheating and stealing and any measure off, is stealing wither taxes or otherwise.

We curse and swear it horrible thing to do unless your an ADULT.

We waste opportunities and claim the world is unfair, yet through it all expect our Kids to be mentally and emotionally stable.

I threaten my kids all the time if they do not behave like adults I'm going to beat their Father!

They usually give me the look of Daddy can we get popcorn and watch?

[MikeAmbrosio]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

It has absolutely nothing to do with
'over-simplification' in the slightest.

Is anyone here advocating that if it's
ok to hit a child that it is also ok for
a man to hit his spouse or girlfriend?

Where do you draw the line?

Most reasonable thinking people here
would be horrified at the thought of
any form of domestic abuse or violence
towards women.

If this is the case between adults, how
on earth can it possibly be justified that
hitting a child is somehow ok?

Mark, people have different definitions of what ABUSE is and what DISCIPLINE is and, I'm sorry, they are not necessarily your definition. In no way do I believe that swatting a bottom when your child does something that could endanger its own life is a form of abuse.

Case in point, a bunch of years back, my oldest son (a little over 2 at the time) broke free of my hand coming out of the grocery store and started running towards the parking lot. Horrified, I dropped my bags, grabbed him by the shirt collar just as he was about to run in front of a moving vehicle.

Yup - I swatted his butt.

Nope, he never did it again.

Fast forward 19 years (he's 21 now), he's no worse for wear. He was not scarred for life. In fact, we have an awesome relationship. He just called me yesterday for car buying advice (just secured his first auto loan).

I never had to swat him again either, so it was a very effective lesson in my viewpoint. Better a swatting than burying him, no?

Oh, and by the way - I have a VERY clear understanding of the difference between swatting a child on the butt and spousal abuse. I think lumping them together is simply a good way for advocates and politicians to make a point.

What I did that day was in no way abuse as defined by those I mentioned above.

I do agree, however, that many folks out there blur the lines considerably. In my view they should not be parents.

Mike

[MikeAmbrosio]

Mark,

You are 100% correct. Physical ABUSE has long lasting, usually very bad effects.

I am sorry to hear what you have endured and understand your viewpoint completely. I am from a family of 4 kids and were never abused. I have 4 kids and have NEVER hit one out of anger, nor used physical means as a punishment for bad behavior.

But I think in today's society, we have way too many talking heads that will tell you ANY form of "discipline" is no good...

Don't use time-outs.

Taking away their toys is bad.

No TV for a week...no.

I mean it gets utterly ridiculous. And I would venture a guess that the ones who espouse THAT philosophy never had kids...

All I know is this... there have been times in my adult life where I would be, for example, walking down the street, ready to cross at a light. And just as I step a foot in the road, I get one of those nagging senses. I look up just in time to see some A-Hole jumping the light and would have run me down.

My little sense - I don't know what it was. People would attribute that differently, to be sure. But in MY mind, in the dark recesses of my mind MAYBE I suddenly remembered a swat my own mother gave me as I tried to run across a street...

This is a hot button issue. But as much as we need temperance about how we "punish" our children, there also needs to be common sense from those who really just use this subject as a means to their own ends.

Children NEED discipline. Not abuse...discipline.

Abuse, by the way, is not reserved to:

Physical
Women
Children
Animals

During my first marriage, my then wife was so verbally and emotionally abusive to me that I am really surprised I ended up getting remarried. It took a good 6 years of therapy to get "over" it.

But if there were any positives to take from that experience, it was this...

It taught me how NOT to treat others.

It made me be MUCH more of an active father to my sons, even though I did not have custody. To this day, my 19 year old has MAJOR issues with his mother because of her mouth. She destroyed her second marriage the same way she destroyed ours. But when my son comes to my house and sees me with my current wife he understands that things CAN be good, and normal.

Abuse sucks.

BTW, I took no offense at all.

Mike

[MichaelHiles]

We'd be misbehaving, fighting, bad as demons from hell. Screaming. Carrying on like banshees.

Mom would slide into the room and we'd stop dead in our tracks... uh oh... she'd smile slyly, "what's going on in here?"... Oscar winning performance... pretending that she was just there for a social call.

We'd let out guards down thinking there wasn't anything coming, and she'd sneak up next to us.

Then, like Wolverine, with blades rocketing out of the back of his hand, that damn avocado green plastic flyswatter would appear out of nowhere. She was a master ninja, twirling it around like nunchaku... damn woman and her flyswatter kata... the most hardened Samurai would have fled in sheer terror at the sight.

WHAP WHAP WHAP WHAP on the bare legs....

DAMN DAMN DAMN DAMN THAT $HIT HURTS!!!!

waffle print

"IF I HAVE TO COME IN HERE AGAIN, I WILL..."

(and this is where it got really bad)

"TELL YOUR FATHER WHEN HE GETS HOME!!!!!"


In all fairness, we gave that woman every grey hair on her head.

But in the end, we turned out just fine - largely due to her Grandma Walton attitude.



Now... this was a cute, but true story.

But I want to illustrate the real point.

We were hardened criminals at age 7. The only way to get our attention was to get down on our thug life level and punk us down like dogs.

But, all I have to do is point at my daughter with a glare, and she bursts into tears and comes running to me wanting a hug and reassurance that Daddy still loves her.

Of course she gets a sweeping hug and a quiet discussion about how daddy only gets on her for things that are important because he loves her and wants her to be a good person when she grows up.


Every kid is different. There's no such thing as a "one size fits all" method of discipline.

[Tina Golden]

What a refreshing surprise to see this discussion turn back to the positive. I've been following it but not getting back involved as it seemed to be degenerating and I fully thought it was going to end up in an online "brawl".

Kudos to both Mark and Mike for bringing it back to discussion level and taking the heat back out of the topic. If everyone could do that, we wouldn't need rules about certain topics...lol.

Tina

[MikeAmbrosio]

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

What a refreshing surprise to see this discussion turn back to the positive. I've been following it but not getting back involved as it seemed to be degenerating and I fully thought it was going to end up in an online "brawl".

Kudos to both Mark and Mike for bringing it back to discussion level and taking the heat back out of the topic. If everyone could do that, we wouldn't need rules about certain topics...lol.

Tina

I guess all those years of therapy paid off for me

Thanks Tina.

[seanyd]

I try not to spank the children but sometimes they do push you over the edge and they`ll probaly end up doing the same thing tomorrow , its a long learning curve

[talewins]

Yesterday my daughter tangled with the real danger of spanking a child these days. The poor kid has an iq double mine, doing algebra and geometry in kindergarten. Yesterday she decided she needed a play pretty. When she didn't get it she began hurling the other purchases out of the shopping cart.We are talking attention-getting breakables here.
The counting started.. One! Two! Okay, SWAT.
The little girl began bawling and said: "I am not moving from here until I get my play pretty." Another swat. This time there were witnesses, beady-eyed witnesses.
They followed my daughter up to the cash register. Grand daughter began hurling more goodies out of the basket. Another swat. Witnesses crowded in close; they followed the wailing child out to the parking lot.
Wailing Child was put in the back seat and the seat belt cinched. Wailing child began wailing in earnest, demanding that they go back to get her play pretty.
My daughter began backing up, carefully to keep from running over the beady-eyed witnesses. Suddenly the back door opened and the seat belt popped apart. Wailing Child was almost on the pavement when Mama's big hand met the hind end of the willfully disobedient child. "What are you doing to her?" one of the witnesses demaned.
"What I should have done in the first place. Now, get out of my way."

I know there are too many heavy hands out there, but reproving betimes with sharpness has a whole lot going for it, even when the beady-eyed witnesses have cell phones.

[garyv]

I like several here only use spanking as a deterrent, but not as a regular form of punishment. I will use it as a form of communication to keep them from danger. I find that parents that use spankings as a regular form of punishment tend to do it when they are angry, and that can easily lead to abuse.

However, I have many family members in the education field. And there's not a single one of them that doesn't tell stories of how disrespectful kids are at school these days. I can tell you the one thing that kept me - and most of the kids in my school - in line, was knowing that the principle had a huge paddle hanging up in his office for everyone to see. And the stories of that paddle rivaled some urban legends.

Take a job at just about any school here in the United States, and you'll quickly see that mere words will never get the job done. There has to be fear of some form of consequence.

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by garyv

I like several here only use spanking as a deterrent, but not as a regular form of punishment. I will use it as a form of communication to keep them from danger. I find that parents that use spankings as a regular form of punishment tend to do it when they are angry, and that can easily lead to abuse.

However, I have many family members in the education field. And there's not a single one of them that doesn't tell stories of how disrespectful kids are at school these days. I can tell you the one thing that kept me - and most of the kids in my school - in line, was knowing that the principle had a huge paddle hanging up in his office for everyone to see. And the stories of that paddle rivaled some urban legends.

Take a job at just about any school here in the United States, and you'll quickly see that mere words will never get the job done. There has to be fear of some form of consequence.

In my school it was the Gym teacher with a ping pong paddle
Once a week in boys gym we had swimming and we had to skinny dip.
He'd call a student up and say something like "remember on Tuesday you where acting up in English class? Well bend over."
Only time the principal got involved was if a suspension or detention was called for.
I went to a small public school, in fact it was the same building for grads k through 12. If there where 30 students in your grade it was a large class.
I started Kindergarten in 1958 for a time reference. I remember acting up once in first grade. The teacher called my mother and my mother told her she had her permission to beat me if I got out of line.
With those odds you don't act up in school. The up side was I got an education that rivaled and often surpassed what you would receive in any private school.