Now I can finally prove that the Universe is an illusion! It is NOT REAL!

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The Universe is a concept, an illusion, its imaginary and its not real.

Want me to prove using a simple analogy?

Now consider 10 tennis balls. They are in front of you. You can count them, touch them and feel them. So they are real, right? Yes they are.

Now you take a sheet of paper and write: Ball 1, Ball 2, Ball 3 and so on. There is no limit to how much you can write, right? You can write up to 1 million balls, or billion or zillion or INFINITE number of balls.

The writing is not real. You just imagine it and its a concept inside your mind. An Illusion. You cannot touch the balls. And hence it can go up to infinity.

Now get back...

Imagine you take a rocket, a magic one which can travel at zillion miles per hour without need for fuel and head straight up. You won't hit a ceiling. If there is one then there has to be something beyond that, at least vacuum, space. Theoretically you will keep going up, up, up without and end... just like writing numbers which has no end.

So the universe is infinite. If it is infinite, it cannot be real. Hence it should be an illusion. A concept, an imagination in someone's mind - Whom We Call GOD.

So did I prove that the Universe is an illusion?

  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Creative Thinker View Post

    Theoretically you will keep going up, up, up without and end... just like writing numbers which has no end.
    Let me get this straight.

    If we pretend we have this thing that doesn't exist which can do the impossible, then it would prove something.

    So you've pretended to prove something. Good job. Now go take your medication.
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  • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
    Originally Posted by Creative Thinker View Post

    So did I prove that the Universe is an illusion?

    Nope. Try again. This time use baseballs.


    KJ
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Um....I'll have what he's having.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Ellis
    Originally Posted by Creative Thinker View Post

    So the universe is infinite.
    You're assuming a lot with that statement...

    Actually, the universe is expanding (i.e. Big Bang theory), we know that for a fact. Now, the interesting question is, if it's expanding, is it infinite?

    Edit: I happen to think your post is very interesting!
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Creative Thinker,

    You have some flaws in your argument. But I would not
    discourage you from investigating it some more. I'd suggest
    you read Rene Descarte and the latest research in particle
    and quantum physics. That will keep you busy for a while,
    stimulate your mind, and provide an exposure to excellent
    logic and argument.
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  • Profile picture of the author tutpeyst023
    Errrr I dont know never been good at physics or science or any of that sort geez. But Coelho said all things are one right? You just might have a point.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by tutpeyst023 View Post

      Errrr I dont know never been good at physics or science or any of that sort geez. But Coelho said all things are one right? You just might have a point.
      All things are one doesn't mean non-existent.........it just means that what is extant has an underlying form that is not detectable, or has not been detected at the least
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      Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author emarketingbd
    The Universe is an example and the object to imagine the existence of GOD and He is alone and ever supreme power. Universe is His creation for the small life of its inhabitants and the way how its creature will lead life in universal life after death.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      If it is infinite, it cannot be real.
      An assertion without established basis. In fact, unprovable.

      There are a number of other arguments to be made about points leading to the conclusion, but the leap from those to this is large and empty enough to make discussing them moot.


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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Just by using the word "Universe" you have disproven your argument.

    If you write Ball 1, Ball2, and so on, each time you write it you know what it represents. What you are writing has meaning. Furthermore, assuming you are writing in numerical order (as your example suggests), Ball 2 comes AFTER Ball 1 which means that you are assuming there is not only a representation of something real, but that they are in relation to one another.

    All your argument says to me is...

    "Nothing exists if it can be represented in a conceptual form."

    You are not real, because I can conceptualize your existence.

    Hmmm....

    I may not agree with your argument, assumptions, or leaps in logic - BUT - philosophizing sure is fun!



    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
      Reading this thread, the first thing to pop into my mind
      was an old Firesign Theatre album. The title seems appropriate -

      "How Can You Be In Two Places At Once When You're Not Anywhere At All?"
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Just by using the word "Universe" you have disproven your argument.

      If you write Ball 1, Ball2, and so on, each time you write it you know what it represents. What you are writing has meaning. Furthermore, assuming you are writing in numerical order (as your example suggests), Ball 2 comes AFTER Ball 1 which means that you are assuming there is not only a representation of something real, but that they are in relation to one another.

      All your argument says to me is...

      "Nothing exists if it can be represented in a conceptual form."

      You are not real, because I can conceptualize your existence.

      Hmmm....

      I may not agree with your argument, assumptions, or leaps in logic - BUT - philosophizing sure is fun!



      All the best,
      Michael
      "conceptual" pre-supposes an extant form which is "thinking".........
      "writing" pre-supposes an extant form doing an action...............
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      Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    By your theory, the world should be more real to us than an ant, because they are smaller and the universe is closer to infinite.

    The universe must now be more real, since we can go so far up, etc....

    Besides, there must be a place to hold everything so, in theory, the universe IS infinite. If you have a pet mouse, it may be in a cage, in a house, in a city, in a state, in a country, on a planet, in the galaxy, that is in the universe, etc.....

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Cybermagnate
    You're starting from the false premise that a concept which is inconceivable to the human mind - ie: infinity - automatically makes something unreal. The human mind is limited - an organ that evolved over eons to deal with its environment. Time and space are accepted by the human mind as real elements of the physical universe only because the human mind is wired to perceive reality that way. I think it was Sheldrake who said that the universe is not only weirder than we imagine, but it's weirder than we CAN imagine.
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  • Profile picture of the author Phnx
    Well I dunno about infinite, but it's certainly jolly big!

    Watch and marvel.....

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  • Profile picture of the author phil.wheatley
    Well, in the same vein as this, I think I've worked out the Chicken and the Egg riddle. For a moment, let's just assume that one of these was placed on the earth. Ok, so if the egg was placed first, then without anything to roost on it, it wouldn't hatch! So I think the chicken came first.

    Do I have a point, or am I as mad as the Original Poster?? ;-)

    p.s @ Creative Thinker, to be honest, I was slightly disappointed, I was aexpecting something along te lines of the Matrix, somehow I don't think 'Tennis Balls' the movie would have many sequels!
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by phil.wheatley View Post

      Well, in the same vein as this, I think I've worked out the Chicken and the Egg riddle. For a moment, let's just assume that one of these was placed on the earth. Ok, so if the egg was placed first, then without anything to roost on it, it wouldn't hatch! So I think the chicken came first.

      Do I have a point, or am I as mad as the Original Poster?? ;-)

      p.s @ Creative Thinker, to be honest, I was slightly disappointed, I was aexpecting something along te lines of the Matrix, somehow I don't think 'Tennis Balls' the movie would have many sequels!
      In 5th grade I had what I thought was a good solution, too.

      Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

      Evolution: Egg first
      Creation: Chicken first

      Hmmm....Now that I'm on my last day of being 40, it occurs to me that other people may have different answers, too.

      Nihilism: There are no chickens or eggs.
      Simpson: Mmmmmmm....chicken and eggs.
      Dualism: Both are different, and the same, in harmony with one another.
      Conspiracy: The chicken and egg riddle is a plot the Illuminati use to keep the masses ignorant.
      Toddler: Why? Why? Why?
      Solipsism:


      All the best,
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Killer Joe
        A chicken and an egg are lying in bed when the chicken looks over at the egg and says, "Well, I guess I answered THAT question..."

        (I know, old joke. I've told it here before )

        KJ
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  • Profile picture of the author phil.wheatley
    Oh, Happy Birthday for tomorrow then Michael, what are you having for your Birthday treat, how about chicken??? ha ha

    If I want to try and be serious about this universe subject for a second, I read a great book years ago called "The double helix of the mind" He had this theory about opposites. So, a magnet has a positive and a negative, the earth has a positive and negative (N and S poles), and therefore the Universe has a positive and negative.

    So, let's say we are at the negative end, where we have black holes, which suck in matter, so at the other end there are white holes which spit matter out. If this was true, then the universe would be finite in the same way that if you travel around the world, you end up back where you started. Well, some of that is my own theory, and probably completely wrong...but who knows. Or maybe at the other end of the universe is a planet inhabited by Sir Clive Sinclair waiting to unlease his next invention upon us!!

    p.s KJ, haha, I actually haven't heard that joke before. It reminds me of when I was in bed with the Mrs the other night, I said "Hey, I'm about to play hide and seek" , she said "what do you mean", so I said "ready or not, here I come" ha ha
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by phil.wheatley View Post

      Oh, Happy Birthday for tomorrow then Michael, what are you having for your Birthday treat, how about chicken??? ha ha

      If I want to try and be serious about this universe subject for a second, I read a great book years ago called "The double helix of the mind" He had this theory about opposites. So, a magnet has a positive and a negative, the earth has a positive and negative (N and S poles), and therefore the Universe has a positive and negative.

      So, let's say we are at the negative end, where we have black holes, which suck in matter, so at the other end there are white holes which spit matter out. If this was true, then the universe would be finite in the same way that if you travel around the world, you end up back where you started. Well, some of that is my own theory, and probably completely wrong...but who knows. Or maybe at the other end of the universe is a planet inhabited by Sir Clive Sinclair waiting to unlease his next invention upon us!!

      p.s KJ, haha, I actually haven't heard that joke before. It reminds me of when I was in bed withthe Mrs the other day, I said "Hey, I'm about to play hide and seek" , she said "what do you mean", so I said "ready or not, here I come" ha ha
      That's assuming there would be nothing interrupting that flow, and that everything would be effected by it.

      Where would the poles be located?

      If they were on opposite ends, the N-side would have to have enough power to re-attract what the P-side shoots out. I would assume the P-side would have to be very powerful to overpower the effect of the N-side. HOWEVER, the P-side would have to have even more power to be able to emit past the N-side power.

      Wouldn't each pole have to become more and more powerful, ad infinitum, to keep working?

      Or, would there be a shape that solves this problem; such as a Klein bottle or Mobius strip?

      What about the possibility of an undiscovered E- and W-pole to assist the N- and S-forces?

      Very thought provoking. I love it!

      All the best,
      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Cybermagnate
    Q: Is the answer to this thread's question coming?

    A: Not yet, but it's tryin' real hard ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author phil.wheatley
    Well, I guess we're straying from the question, which was whether the Universe was just a concept? Uhhh, I don't think it is, I'm sure if there was some higher beings controlling us, they wouldn't want me to spend my time posting in this forum...or in this thread even ha ha ha

    One thing I've wondered though, is...when we are awake...could that actually be us dreaming, and thus, when we are dreaming, that is actually reality??? Although, again, why am I dreaming about posting on the warrior forum???

    Well, say that was true, that would mean that every person has their own reality, so none of you in this thread really exist, as you are just part of my dream..Wow, that could get really weird.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by phil.wheatley View Post

      Well, I guess we're straying from the question, which was whether the Universe was just a concept? Uhhh, I don't think it is, I'm sure if there was some higher beings controlling us, they wouldn't want me to spend my time posting in this forum...or in this thread even ha ha ha

      One thing I've wondered though, is...when we are awake...could that actually be us dreaming, and thus, when we are dreaming, that is actually reality??? Although, again, why am I dreaming about posting on the warrior forum???

      Well, say that was true, that would mean that every person has their own reality, so none of you in this thread really exist, as you are just part of my dream..Wow, that could get really weird.
      The philosophy is called Idealism and you can start examination of it with Rene Descartes. You can be sure you exist because "I think therefore I am" but you can't be sure of any of us really being here. Let the dream continue.
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        If you really do think, you really do exist.

        "I think, therefore I am." - Rene Descartes
        "...But I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it now follow that I too do not exist? No. If I convinced myself of something [or thought anything at all] then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who is deliberately and constantly deceiving me. In that case I too undoubtedly exist, if he is deceiving me; and let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing so long as I think that I am something. So, after considering everything very thoroughly, I must finally conclude that the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind...." - Meditation II, Descartes

        [Edit: Just noticed Heysal replied same time - in the same universe. Was that an illusion, a dream or what?]
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          "I think not," said Descartes, and promptly vanished.
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          If you really do think, you really do exist.

          "I think, therefore I am." - Rene Descartes
          "...But I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it now follow that I too do not exist? No. If I convinced myself of something [or thought anything at all] then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who is deliberately and constantly deceiving me. In that case I too undoubtedly exist, if he is deceiving me; and let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing so long as I think that I am something. So, after considering everything very thoroughly, I must finally conclude that the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind...." - Meditation II, Descartes

          [Edit: Just noticed Heysal replied same time - in the same universe. Was that an illusion, a dream or what?]
          So you have found me out, finally, Paul. Yes. I am the demon in the machine.
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          Sal
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

            So you have found me out, finally, Paul. Yes. I am the demon in the machine.
            Wow! You go girl! Do you really think so? I was just thinking therefore I am a demon come Halloween time. To be a demon in a machine, though, seems to me to be rather dreamily elusive and illusionary. But I guess with some intense thinking and real tennis balls, a self-affirming extant form inside machines is quite theoretically possible.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              I am the daemon in the machine.
              Which protocol?

              Or, in the words of Renee Descartes, "I am blonde, therefore... pfoof"


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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                I am the diva in the machine ...
                With graphic curvature, she went off on a tangent in geometric fashion.

                Rene thought, "Being blonde, she's only transient, but my god, what nicely sloped cartesian coordinates"
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              Wow! You go girl! Do you really think so? I was just thinking therefore I am ...................a self-affirming extant form inside machines is quite theoretically possible.
              Um....I think therefore - *I AM* Multi-level quote after epistemology 101. LOL

              Self-affirming extant could be anywhere, we have no way to know what an extant is at this point................
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              Sal
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                • Profile picture of the author myob
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  I got nuthin
                  Steven,

                  Try to think a little harder. You really could be a self-affirming extant form with 10 balls (or more) if you put your mind to it. Imagine that! At least you will have something more to write about.
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                Um....I think therefore - *I AM* Multi-level quote after epistemology 101. LOL

                Self-affirming extant could be anywhere, we have no way to know what an extant is at this point................
                Sal

                I think you may have a point, however illusory and transitory it may be. In reality, extant forms extend far beyond any given point, or singularity. The first singularity, or mother of all points, in fact lasted a mere billionth of a second over 15 billion years ago. The Big Bang scattered shining points of light into the infinite cosmos, and are still expanding exponentially.

                I think other thinking forms began to think they too are extant although by now many may be extinct. And I also should point out that I think that your thinking as being a demon inside a machine is not only a self-demeaning affirmation, but thankfully also only tangentially imaginative within a three-dimensional universe, unless you seriously think about factoring in other dimensions of irrational coordinates that curve in on a cartesian plane. (Psych, Physics and Geometry 101)

                As Rene thought to himself,
                "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things. ... I thought the following four rules would be enough, provided that I made a firm and constant resolution not to fail even once in the observance of them. The first was never to accept anything as true if I had not evident knowledge of its being so; that is, carefully to avoid precipitancy and prejudice, and to embrace in my judgment only what presented itself to my mind so clearly and distinctly that I had no occasion to doubt it. The second, to divide each problem I examined into as many parts as was feasible, and as was requisite for its better solution. The third, to direct my thoughts in an orderly way; beginning with the simplest objects, those most apt to be known, and ascending little by little, in steps as it were, to the knowledge of the most complex; and establishing an order in thought even when the objects had no natural priority one to another. And the last, to make throughout such complete enumerations and such general surveys that I might be sure of leaving nothing out. These long chains of perfectly simple and easy reasonings by means of which geometers are accustomed to carry out their most difficult demonstrations had led me to fancy that everything that can fall under human knowledge forms a similar sequence; and that so long as we avoid accepting as true what is not so, and always preserve the right order of deduction of one thing from another, there can be nothing too remote to be reached in the end, or to well hidden to be discovered." in Discours de la Méthode
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