Suggestion for a new rule, what do you think?

[Michael Oksa]

Hi Warriors,

If you've been here for any amount of time, you have probably seen several posts where newer people have complained about how "unfair and restrictive" some of the rules are.

First, the Warrior Forum owes you nothing. Yep! Nada, zilch, zero, nil. Oh, and just for the record, the world doesn't owe you anything either. Just wanted to clear that up.

The suggestion for a new rule?

If someone makes a post whining about a rule, then the "restriction" gets doubled for them.

Example: Make a post complaining about how mean the WF is for making you have 50 posts before you can send a PM? Sorry, now it's been doubled to 100 for whining!

And, what about adding another level to it? Complain about having the restriction doubled from 50 to 100 wouldn't result in it being doubled again...no, it would result in not being able to PM at all.

Example: Complaining about your inbox only holding 10 messages would result in it only being able to hold 5.

To be fair, there could be a mechanism in place to re-earn those privileges--privileges, NOT rights.

So, am I way off base, or do you think this kind of rule would be good?

All the best,
Michael

p.s. This is only an idea. Just something to think about. I am not trying to tell Admin how to run the world's best forum.

[sbucciarel]

I say we make a rule that we leave the rule making to Allen.

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I say we make a rule that we leave the rule making to Allen.

Yes, I agree.

This is nothing more than a suggestion.

You will also note that my p.s. mentions that I am not making a rule. I don't have the authority.

However, it's worth discussing. And Allen HAS implemented member suggestions before. One that comes to mind is getting rid of the cheap looking ASCII symbols in the WSO section.

If you don't want to participate in this particular discussion, that's completely up to you.

I understand that it's Allen's forum, and he knows what he's doing.

All the best,
Michael

[Brad Gosse]

Michael I sure am glad you weren't my dad growing up lol

I want my toast cut in half
Here you go, quarters

I don't want to be grounded for a month
2 Months

I don't want to go to church
Now you're a branch davidian

Just playing

[Tina Golden]

I love it! We have a sign in our house over the doorway into the living room - "There will be a $5.00 charge for whining".

Tina

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

Michael I sure am glad you weren't my dad growing up lol

I want my toast cut in half
Here you go, quarters

I don't want to be grounded for a month
2 Months

I don't want to go to church
Now you're a branch davidian

Just playing

I love those ideas, too, Brad!

Not sure what my kids will say once I start following through on them.



Branch Davidian! Now that's classic.

~Michael

[Keith Boisvert]

In the good old days we would just publicly flog and embarrass those who whined.

I would let 'em whine, just move their posts into the off topic section and let them cry like little school girls in there.

Or a cry baby "smilie".

Or a "whining" infraction.

Or we ignore them and let it drop off the first page within hours.

Or I need to stop drinking so damn early in the morning.

keith

[theimdude]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Hi Warriors,

First, the Warrior Forum owes you nothing. Yep! Nada, zilch, zero, nil. Oh, and just for the record, the world doesn't owe you anything either. Just wanted to clear that up.

Don't agree with you - If we weren't here there would no warroom, wso, classifieds etc.

To top this if we weren't in this world there wouldn't be no WF either and just a bunch of boring robots posting here.

The WF is a business and if all forums and businesses say "we own you nothing" the all will leave - You remind me of my father (part of him)

[Michael Oksa]

@ imdude - I'm not sure I understand your response. I'm not talking about everyone leaving, staying, or being here. It sounds like you're saying the world owes us a favor just because we exist?

If I may humbly ask, what do you think the Warrior Forum, or the world, owes you? I ask because there may be something I haven't previously considered.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. What do you think of the kind of rule I'm talking about?

[pharris1]

Michael:

I'm not sure this is worth discussing. We are all adults here, supposedly. Every place of business has its share of whiners. Everyone has within their nature the propensity to whine. The nature of forums usually allows free expression of ideas, including whining.

I personally don't get much from complaining and whining or even reading about it. If I open a post that is geared in that direction I usually don't finish reading it unless I get the feeling the person is just looking for some guidance in improving his business and doesn't really know how to ask (so it comes out as whining).

If it comes down to people complaining about forum rules, either abide or go somewhere else. They have the choice just as they have the choice to whine or not to whine as we have the choice to read their posts or not read them.

I would laugh at any rule in my office that punishes someone for whining. This is something that management has to address on a performance review if it is affecting individual or company performance. To implement rules about whining in a place of business would be juvenile, just as it would be here.

Just my 2, 4 or 6 cents.

Peter

[Kay King]

Michael -

I think what you suggest is already sort of being done. I've noticed several whining and poor me threads removed recently and one-line wonders often find their post counts reset.

kay

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

@ imdude - I'm not sure I understand your response. I'm not talking about everyone leaving, staying, or being here. It sounds like you're saying the world owes us a favor just because we exist?

If I may humbly ask, what do you think the Warrior Forum, or the world, owes you? I ask because there may be something I haven't previously considered.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. What do you think of the kind of rule I'm talking about?

I understand completely what he is saying:
We are actually all Allen's customers and you don't keep customers by telling them to FO for every little annoyance. Members buy and post WSO's, they join the War Room, they advertise in the forums.....all of these actions bring the owner of the site money. WE are customers.

The more rules against speaking freely, the harder it is for people to post without nervousness that they are going to be reprimanded just for speaking their mind. When someone gets really ridiculous, they get toasted or bbq'd in the OT - why make just one more rule to make people have to hesitate before clicking that post button. Is that your goal is to have people intimidated every time they make a post?

It's already getting very difficult to tell where some of the lines are. I just saw a thread with a very economic issue in the title - went to post and it said invalid thread. I had read the thread before starting to post. Didn't see one whit of anything going on that it should have been canned for. Of course, someone might have posted something I didn't see while I was writing........it could have been taken out by a forum mod or by enough users with itchy "report this thread" fingers. Who knows. But - the line between economics and politics is getting very fuzzy so now there is much hesitation in posting on eonomics for fear of crossing the line.

Okay so rules about spam are very necessary to keep a forum from going to mush...some people still don't get it that they are spamming.......then you have no religion and politics......while it gets fuzzy in those areas, I'm sure we all can understand that those are explosive topics and can acquesce to that rule at least to a reasonable extent....reasonable enough to want to continue to be members.

Now you want to make more rules based soley on a persons emotional frame of mind when posting? So what if someone whines and 10 people end up calling them a baby? Isn't that what they are doing here basically is learning to deal with business? Isn't a good thing that they see what kind of response their attitudes engender? How many rules can you make before you just get to be a control freak? How many rules can you make before people decide they don't want to spend $37 bucks to belong to a forum they might get booted out of for just saying something someone else finds annoying sometime?

One of the reasons Allen keeps his customers is because he knows how to temper his restraints. He has run a successful business here - and one which is actually growing in a recession, for many years. I would find it hard to second guess him or to make suggestions unless I were doing a stronger business myself.......although I, myself, am guilty of stretching the rules, and don't like certain restrictions, they are not so unreasonable as to make me decide to walk out. It is apparent that Allen really doesn't need our suggestions for how to run this forum - and that he has deemed it best to make as few rules as possible to keep his place running smoothly and the majority of his customers satisfied.

[myob]

Whining is so childish, I think rules should be kept simple enough that even a child could understand.

So, if you behave like a child, you be should be expected to be treated like one.

Or a little more specifically; "If you don't stop your whining, I'll give you something to really whine about!"

Perhaps whiners could be banned for a period of time, say 10 days for each offense. But of course I'm not such a nice guy like Michael.

However, any idea like that would certainly make it easier for the rest of us to communicate on an adult level.

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by theimdude

Don't agree with you - If we weren't here there would no warroom, wso, classifieds etc.

To top this if we weren't in this world there wouldn't be no WF either and just a bunch of boring robots posting here.

The WF is a business and if all forums and businesses say "we own you nothing" the all will leave - You remind me of my father (part of him)

The Warrior forum is a forum.
Sure Allen makes money off it, but if he didn't he'd be making that money somewhere else (and already does).
Here's a reality check. The Warrior Forum doesn't owe you anything.
If you think it does maybe you should leave.

Originally Posted by HeySal

I understand completely what he is saying:
We are actually all Allen's customers and you don't keep customers by telling them to FO for every little annoyance. Members buy and post WSO's, they join the War Room, they advertise in the forums.....all of these actions bring the owner of the site money. WE are customers.

And how much money have you spent here and how much did you make?
Every example you gave of spending money here are small fees that allow you to make way more then you spent.

Originally Posted by Keith Boisvert

In the good old days we would just publicly flog and embarrass those who whined.

I would let 'em whine, just move their posts into the off topic section and let them cry like little school girls in there.
keith

Like Kieth said

Mike I'm not a big fan of rules, even those that won't effect me.
With that said I do like the idea

[TimPhelan]

Looks like that happened with this thread.

Originally Posted by Keith Boisvert

I would let 'em whine, just move their posts into the off topic section and let them cry like little school girls in there.

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by HeySal

I understand completely what he is saying:
We are actually all Allen's customers and you don't keep customers by telling them to FO for every little annoyance. Members buy and post WSO's, they join the War Room, they advertise in the forums.....all of these actions bring the owner of the site money. WE are customers.

The more rules against speaking freely, the harder it is for people to post without nervousness that they are going to be reprimanded just for speaking their mind. When someone gets really ridiculous, they get toasted or bbq'd in the OT - why make just one more rule to make people have to hesitate before clicking that post button. Is that your goal is to have people intimidated every time they make a post?

It's already getting very difficult to tell where some of the lines are. I just saw a thread with a very economic issue in the title - went to post and it said invalid thread. I had read the thread before starting to post. Didn't see one whit of anything going on that it should have been canned for. Of course, someone might have posted something I didn't see while I was writing........it could have been taken out by a forum mod or by enough users with itchy "report this thread" fingers. Who knows. But - the line between economics and politics is getting very fuzzy so now there is much hesitation in posting on eonomics for fear of crossing the line.

Okay so rules about spam are very necessary to keep a forum from going to mush...some people still don't get it that they are spamming.......then you have no religion and politics......while it gets fuzzy in those areas, I'm sure we all can understand that those are explosive topics and can acquesce to that rule at least to a reasonable extent....reasonable enough to want to continue to be members.

Now you want to make more rules based soley on a persons emotional frame of mind when posting? So what if someone whines and 10 people end up calling them a baby? Isn't that what they are doing here basically is learning to deal with business? Isn't a good thing that they see what kind of response their attitudes engender? How many rules can you make before you just get to be a control freak? How many rules can you make before people decide they don't want to spend $37 bucks to belong to a forum they might get booted out of for just saying something someone else finds annoying sometime?

One of the reasons Allen keeps his customers is because he knows how to temper his restraints. He has run a successful business here - and one which is actually growing in a recession, for many years. I would find it hard to second guess him or to make suggestions unless I were doing a stronger business myself.......although I, myself, am guilty of stretching the rules, and don't like certain restrictions, they are not so unreasonable as to make me decide to walk out. It is apparent that Allen really doesn't need our suggestions for how to run this forum - and that he has deemed it best to make as few rules as possible to keep his place running smoothly and the majority of his customers satisfied.

Blah, blah, blah.

Lighten up, Sal.

It wasn't meant to be a serious suggestion for a rule.

My point is that people should be happy with what they get.

The world, nor the Forum, owe them anything.

Glad you were able to read this as some sort of Free Speech issue, though. Fits the M.O.

And, yes, that thread WAS getting politcal. Period.

All the best,
Michael

[Michael Oksa]

Another quick point.

I wasn't whining myself. There's a big difference between a tongue in cheek suggestion to make a point, and actually making a rule. I can do the former, and have no desire to do the latter.



~M~

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Another quick point.

I wasn't whining myself. There's a big difference between a tongue in cheek suggestion to make a point, and actually making a rule. I can do the former, and have no desire to do the latter.



~M~

I knew that

[Bill Farnham]

Maybe whiners could have their avatar turned upside down for the duration of the thread.

Or maybe have the image turned into a negative like they do with photos.

Or have all the spam PMs sent collectively to their inboxes so the rest of us don't have to deal with that rubbish.

But if this was my forum, here's what I'd do...

I'd layout with my family on a beach somewhere enjoying life and completely ignore the whiners. They'll out themselves and move on.

KJ

[myob]

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Another quick point.

I wasn't whining myself. There's a big difference between a tongue in cheek suggestion to make a point, and actually making a rule. I can do the former, and have no desire to do the latter.



~M~

I didn't know that.

And as a free speech activist, I was just getting ready to protest by posting my complete and unabridged 15-page quasi-religio-politico-economico treatise on Stercus Tauri; The Words of the Bull as an exercise in my free speech rights. I am a fully paid, 20-year subscribed War Room Member, so it is owed to me!


Just joking; I wasn't really whining

[Karen Connell]

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

I love it! We have a sign in our house over the doorway into the living room - "There will be a $5.00 charge for whining".

Tina

If anybody whined in our house, they were always asked if they wanted cheese with their whine (wine)...

Karen

[Michael Oksa]

That's more like it!

You guys are a riot!



~M~

[MikeAmbrosio]

If people in general stopped whining there'd be much more silence in the world.

Everyone whines at some point - except me, of course.

[Patrician]

HI Michael -

I agree nobody is 'entitled' to anything here and the bottom line is 'if you don't like it, lump it'. There a rules and if you don't like them, start your own forum and good luck.

However, I think we have enough rules, regulations, limitations and oppression in our lives already without having more.

On one hand I know how obnoxious whiners are, on the other hand, being one sometimes, it really feels like an environment here where we can be somewhat honest and 'get it off our chests'. May even get some affirmation.

So if we can just be toleRANT and try to empathize with whiners and ranters, maybe we are doing a public service.

We may save a dog from being kicked, a kid from getting whacked, a bird that won't get flipped in traffic - even way more terrible things from happening.

I would just say if people don't want to hear it or see it, just don't look or listen. ..and it can be the worst punishment for the whiner - to be ignored as if you are a non-entity.

however I do have to admit this can be difficult to avoid if it becomes rampant.

Whattaya gonnado? 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other...

[HeySal]

Well, Gee Michael........did it SOUND like I knew you were just BSing a bit?

Ya know....I'm gettin' to be an old lady, Michael.....and I've been around a lot of guys........and they whine. That's something that happens when testosterone gets caught in the larynx muscles I would guess. So, of course, after all these decades (many decades) of hearing guys whine.......it just all sounds the same without the smilies.

Geesh.

[Bjarne Eldhuset]

I think it's time to eat a calzone.

[Paul Myers]

Tina,

We have a sign in our house over the doorway into the living room - "There will be a $5.00 charge for whining".

I have one of those in the kitchen. I enforce it, too. (The money goes to beer for when people come over to play cards.)

I like the idea enough that I mentioned having one for here, and someone (I forget who) made this up for us:



Michael,

I'm not comfortable with a rule that could be interpreted in ways that end up punishing people for being confused, or asking sensible questions in a civil tone. I suspect those aren't the people you're talking about, but such a rule would end up being used against them.

Not to worry, though. Aggressive or entitlement-style whining gets handled. Most of the time, it just gets deleted.


Paul

[Paul Myers]

Sal,

I've been around a lot of guys........and they whine. That's something that happens when testosterone gets caught in the larynx muscles I would guess.

[chuckle] If that wasn't so true, I'd be offended.

Nah. I wouldn't. But it is true.


Paul

[Steven Wagenheim]

As a former whiner (yes, I admit it freely) it doesn't matter to me one way
or the other. Whatever rules the forum decides on or doesn't decide on, I'm
fine with. In the grand scheme of things, comparing this place to life and
death issues like...

Your Income
Your Health
Your Family
Your Friends

it just isn't that important.

Ultimately, the mods and the members (we're moderators, remember?) will
handle each person as they see fit WITHOUT having to add more red tape
to the process.

After years of bitching and complaining and having my head handed to me
on a silver platter covered with snake oil, I finally figured out that I either
start acting like a responsible forum member or risk losing my membership.

Those who get that will do the same.

Those who don't will join the ranks of the ex members.

And yes Michael, I knew your thread was a bit tongue in cheek.

I mean after all, 100 posts to PM???

Didn't you really mean 10,000?

[Jhf14]

As long as we are getting strict, how about banning people who ask:

"can somebody help me make money on the internet"

haha

[R Hagel]

Whiners will be spanked by appointed moderators.

Sadists may apply for this moderating position by filling out an application and sending $100 to Allen.

Problem solved.

cheers,
Becky

[myob]

So where do non-whining masochists sign up to be spanked? And can we choose the moderator?

Just asking.

[R Hagel]

Paul, you can fill out the non-whining masochist application, enclose $100 and send it to Allen. Alternatively, you can save your $100 by simply learning to whine.

[myob]

Originally Posted by R Hagel

Paul, you can fill out the non-whining masochist application, enclose $100 and send it to Allen. Alternatively, you can save your $100 by simply learning to whine.

Why do non-whiners have to go through all that?
I thought I deserved a spanking.
In fact, you owe me one.

[Tina Golden]

Why do non-whiners have to go through all that? I thought I deserved a spanking. In fact, you owe me one.

If you ever needed a reason NOT to become a moderator, there ya go.

Tina

[R Hagel]

Originally Posted by myob

Why do non-whiners have to go through all that?
I thought I deserved a spanking.
In fact, you owe me one.

You and your entitlement mentality. You just lost any chance you ever had at getting a spanking on this forum.

[kenboss]

Great thread, but all joking aside, one of the beauties of this forum is just how self-regulating it is. Rules have their place, to be sure, but the firm but gentle censure by warriors (well ok, not always quite so gentle ) for those who arrive here and step out of line in their first few weeks is far more effective than rule enforcement, I would say. Especially when applied with wit and respect (which is is more often than not). That is part of what makes the WF itself so influential and respected

I am guessing that one or two great and valued warriors of today may also have originally arrived with a chip on their shoulder or grumpy attitude or whatever, simply because they had been frequently burned elsewhere and hadn't yet discovered how great this place is. They probably got a nice kicking and stayed on to tell the tale and brighten all our lives.

Ken

[Paul Myers]

Ken,

I am guessing that one or two great and valued warriors of today may also have originally arrived with a chip on their shoulder or grumpy attitude or whatever, simply because they had been frequently burned elsewhere and hadn't yet discovered how great this place is. They probably got a nice kicking and stayed on to tell the tale and brighten all our lives.

More than one or two.

You make an excellent point. How one handles the problems is far more important in the long run than anything else. Some of the most valuable contributors here were... challenges... when they first showed up. And no, I am not going to name names.


Paul