Is Swine Flu Vaccine 50 Times More Dangerous than Swine Flu?

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Radix 14 years ago

I never get flu shots and my kids only use the nasal version. They will not be getting the H1N1 vaccine either...the whole school gets it on Monday.

My old man's a doctor and I have a pretty large stockpile of antivirals. I trust those more than some virus cocktail.

I have issues with hastily produced substances made by the lowest bidder being injected into me or my family.

I'll roll the dice, but we've all already had the virus in the first go round so I don't really understand the vaccine bs as we have natural immunity already barring a mutation in which case we're all gonna die anyway.
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tjmiller

14 years ago

When I was in the Air Force, I had no choice. I got a flu shot every year. I got out in December 1989. Haven't had a flu shot since. Have had the flu (mild case) once. I don't plan to ever have a flu shot again.

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J Bold

14 years ago

Originally Posted by tjmiller

When I was in the Air Force, I had no choice. I got a flu shot every year. I got out in December 1989. Haven't had a flu shot since. Have had the flu (mild case) once. I don't plan to ever have a flu shot again.

yes, I was still interested in joining the Navy until I learned they force shots upon you. I never get flu shots and do not want to get them.

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John M Kane

14 years ago

Canada recently had a serious problem with vaccines
BBC News - Canada's doctors told to halt swine flu vaccine batch
I wouldn't trust them with a bandaid much less filling me up with toxins.
I prefer all my toxins in a bottle of Guiness thank you

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davejohnson333

14 years ago

Many miscarriages have happened as a result of the vaccine. My nephew's wife had a miscarriage after taking the vaccine.

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thunderbird 14 years ago

Originally Posted by davejohnson333

Many miscarriages have happened as a result of the vaccine. My nephew's wife had a miscarriage after taking the vaccine.

How sad. It is even more dangerous than I thought.
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Alex Nash

14 years ago

How many in here have taken the swineflu-vaccine?
I took it. How about u guys?

Regards,
A.N

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davejohnson333

14 years ago

If you go to the web site of Herbal Healer Academy and find the page with breaking news on it you will see many horror stories about the swine flu vaccine.

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davejohnson333

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Nathan Segal

In my opinion, this swine flu bit is nothing but fear mongering and hype.

Yes, big pharma has a lot to gain through these fear mongering campaigns.

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thunderbird

14 years ago

Swine Flu Vaccine Horror Stories (eg Miscarriages)

Personal Stories of Miscarriages After Getting Swine Flu Vaccine

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seasoned

14 years ago

I decided to to get the NORMAL vaccine, but I may not get the H1N1, especially since many seem to think its time is passing.

Mercury and Aluminum are DEADLY TOXINS! Mercury has mad MANY a hat manufacturer MAD(crazy/insane). That is FACT! Aluminum is implicated in alzheimers and other things.
I said the same sort of thing about urea formaldehyde resin, and it took the US about a DECADE after that to wise up! I said the same thing about some plastics. WHEN will people stop!?!?!?

Steve

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thunderbird

14 years ago

Seasoned, you're absolutely dead-on correct about plastics. There is a major movement now to replace plastics with non-toxic biodegradable alternatives, eg by Coca Cola (hardly a bastion of corporate responsibility) in their bottles:
Coca-Cola launches PET plastic bottle that includes plant-based material

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ankifreeze

14 years ago

I'm not take it yet maybe later..

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Sylvia Meier 14 years ago

I have 5 children and I would never give them the swine flu vaccination, and I will never allow them to inject poisons into my children again. I've had to battle gov't agencies already over my decision, as once I hit the vaccine autism connection I decided they were never prick my children with their poisons again, just not worth the risk. I did a whole blog post on it... Vaccinations And Why Mine Won’t Be Getting Them » SylviaRolfe.com
it's sick the lies they feed us to try and get us to harm our own children.

Just my 2 cents.

Sylvia
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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Vaccinations are not linked to autism in any shape, way or form. At least not if you are interested in facts, which this thread has almost none of.

However, that doesn't really matter as everyone should be able to decide if the want vaccines or not. They should also be held accoutable for their decision - and that works both ways. If you refuse to get vaccinated (for anything) and an emploiyer or school district rrquires it, then by not getting it, you may not be able to work for that employer or attend that school. On the other hand, if the vaccination makes you sick, or whatever, then you should accept that, too.

Yes, I'm writing this after waking up in the middle of the night, so it may not make sense.

But...there is so much disinformation on vaccines - and most of it comes from those who are promoting something else. For example, "herbal rememdies" or similar.

Let the fun begin!

All the best,
Michael

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thunderbird

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

<snip>

Yes, I'm writing this after waking up in the middle of the night, so it may not make sense.

But...there is so much disinformation on vaccines
<snip>

I was actually surprised that there weren't pro-vaccine posts in this thread. Please point out factual errors or disinformation in this article:
What's in your H1N1 flu vaccine?

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I was actually surprised that there weren't pro-vaccine posts in this thread. Please point out factual errors or disinformation in this article:
What's in your H1N1 flu vaccine?

There is no need to point any out, because nowhere in that article do they say the H1N1 vaccine is unsafe.

On top of that there are so many uses of the words "could" and "if" that no conclusion can be drawn - pro or con.

So, I would like you to please point out where it states, in the article you cited, that the H1N1 vaccine is more dangerous than not getting vaccinated.

All the best,
Michael

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Paul Myers

14 years ago

On top of that there are so many uses of the words "could" and "if" that no conclusion can be drawn - pro or con.

The lack of scientific rigor seems to me the main point of the piece. Yet another instance of lack of evidence being used to justify whichever side one tends to believe.

The evidence for DHMO (hydric acid) is significantly more conclusive, and even that's often debated.

Paul

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

The lack of scientific rigor seems to me the main point of the piece. Yet another instance of lack of evidence being used to justify whichever side one tends to believe.

The evidence for DHMO (hydric acid) is significantly more conclusive, and even that's often debated.

Paul

WOW, I generally call it DiHydrogen MonOxide! I won't bother to read the whole site, but it IS funny. I STILL haven't gotten DHMO insurance on my home! SO MANY homes are destroyed by it, that insurers are FORBIDDEN to insure against it! I have to go to the federal government, and that slows things down.

I HAVE to know though! I'm curious! Do they ever mention that DHMO is WATER!?!? How many emails do they REALLY get, do you know?

Steve

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thunderbird

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

There is no need to point any out, because nowhere in that article do they say the H1N1 vaccine is unsafe.

On top of that there are so many uses of the words "could" and "if" that no conclusion can be drawn - pro or con.

So, I would like you to please point out where it states, in the article you cited, that the H1N1 vaccine is more dangerous than not getting vaccinated.

All the best,
Michael

From the article cited:
"Although these reactions are minor, the leaflet also says four of 253 people studied experienced 'severe adverse reactions'. Three of the four were deemed to be unrelated to the vaccine, but one case of hypersensitivity (which can mean anything from an allergic reaction to autoimmune disease) was determined 'to be related to vaccination'.

That one serious reaction might not sound like a lot, but it actually translates into a rate of 395 cases per 100,000 people. That's more than 50 times the rate of hospitalization due to H1N1 itself: 7.3 per 100,000 Canadians."

Anecdotal evidence (that is personal experiences, not yet scientifically corroborated) shows that pregnant women have been suffering miscarriages soon after receiving the Swine Flu Vaccine. Would you encourage a pregnant women to get the Swine Flu vaccine?

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Jay Rhome 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Vaccinations are not linked to autism in any shape, way or form. At least not if you are interested in facts, which this thread has almost none of.

That MIGHT be true. The reality is they cannot test the vaccines or any other drugs on millions of people, only a few thousands at best, so in essence, we have to keep track of the bad side effects afterwards, with people reporting it.

That's great in theory but the reality is far from that ideal: many people that do get side effects won't report it, or sometimes don't even link it with the vaccine/drug, AND what's most disturbing to me, many official reports discount these as "coincidences" and don't event report it! They could do it and add that they don't think it adds up, but most of times, they don't even report. That culture is widespread in the system. Try to find admission of guilt when it comes to "mistakes" that caused death or harm in any hospitals...

So we base our analysis of "facts" on flawed and falsified data. No wonder myself and many others will readily believe first hand reports by people we know and even by posters on the web we don't. The trust factor with authorities is broken.
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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Vaccinations are not linked to autism in any shape, way or form. At least not if you are interested in facts, which this thread has almost none of

You are certainly correct THERE! When I spoke of deadly toxins, I mean PERIOD, END OF STORY! I did NOT mean that some MIGHT get some selective change that causes autism.

SORRY if this sounds political, but I have spoken about how global warming can have NO real data to back it up because monitoring stations have been changed in ways that CORRUPT the data. LIKEWISE, they have GREATLY widened and misrepresented autism criteria. If the "rate of autism" increased 1000%, that would indicate a DECREASE!!!!!!!! YEP, you heard right. If ELEVEN TIMES as many were diagnosed with autism, it would be a DECREASE! WHY!?!?!?

The OLDEST definition of autism allowed a VERY restricted set of symptoms for people unable to do certain things that acted in a certain way, and had an IQ under like 70. NOW, you can be able to do just about everything, NOT really act in any way, and the FLOOR of one type of autism is OVER 70! There is no longer ANY cieling to the IQ. A person could have a 300 IQ and STILL be considered autistic.

BTW the founder of "autism speaks" does NOT have an autistic kid, from what I can see. The child has CDD!!!!! Childhood Disintegrative Disorder, Autism/PDD: Yale Child Study Center

The fact that they consider their kid to have autism SUPPORTS my point, and defeats THEIRS!

BTW of the SIX items they listed on that page, only THREE are really autism, according to previous criteria specified, and only ONE of those existed before about 1985.

Steve
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Thomas

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

... everyone should be able to decide if the want vaccines or not. They should also be held accoutable for their decision - and that works both ways. If you refuse to get vaccinated (for anything) and an emploiyer or school district rrquires it, then by not getting it, you may not be able to work for that employer or attend that school. On the other hand, if the vaccination makes you sick, or whatever, then you should accept that, too.

Yes, I'm writing this after waking up in the middle of the night, so it may not make sense.

It doesn't (make sense, that is).

At least not to me.

It looks like you're saying if you don't take the vaccine, you may be fired from your job or expelled from school but, if you do take it, and it makes you sick, then "tough sh1t, deal with it".

That doesn't really fit with the "...should be held accountable" part, so I'm guessing that's not really what you actually meant (or is it?).

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

I did not get the flu vaccine. i believe your body's defenses work just fine as long as you eat healthy and use good hygiene practices

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Yes I would encourage a pregnant woman to get the vaccine. Anecdotal evidence is not science.

The article mentions a possible "adverse" reaction to the vaccine as being "hypersensitivity". It then defines that reaction as "anything from an allergic reaction to autoimmune disease". Huh? That's quite a range, you have to admit. Does "allergic reaction" encompass more redness and swelling at the injection site? See, even that doesn't really mean much.

Anyway, one of the possible adverse reactions to H1N1 is "death".

Furthermore...

That one serious reaction might not sound like a lot, but it actually translates into a rate of 395 cases per 100,000 people.

No it doesn't. It could be higher or lower. You need a larger sample size to make that statement. You could say "if that rate were to stay the same...", but to say it "translates" is not accurate.

That's more than 50 times the rate of hospitalization due to H1N1 itself: 7.3 per 100,000 Canadians.

The two things are unrelated. Plus, hospitalization does not equal the number of people who got H1N1.

Besides, a large portion of people HAVE been vaccinated. If they hadn't, you could argue that the number of hospitalizations would increase.

Ultimately, Paul is right. You can't make ANY real conclusions from that article - PRO or CON. However, those who are locked into believe what they like - REGARDLESS of evidence to the contrary will be able to cite that article as PROOF of their side - pro OR con.

All the best,
Michael

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ThomM

14 years ago

Anecdotal evidence (that is personal experiences, not yet scientifically corroborated) shows that pregnant women have been suffering miscarriages soon after receiving the Swine Flu Vaccine. Would you encourage a pregnant women to get the Swine Flu vaccine?

Yes I would encourage a pregnant woman to get the vaccine. Anecdotal evidence is not science.

Sure glad you're not my daughters doctor or boyfriend Mike

Anecdotal evidence may not be science, but when it involves the live of an unborn child why take a chance if there is any type of evidence it could cause the death of that child.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Sure glad you're not my daughters doctor or boyfriend Mike

Anecdotal evidence may not be science, but when it involves the live of an unborn child why take a chance if there is any type of evidence it could cause the death of that child.

And vice-versa, because that same anecdotal evidence could cost a life.

Why take a chance that NOT getting the vaccine could cost a life?

Nice try.

But anecdotal evidence is still not science. And if you're going to use that as an argument - for anything - then I'm glad YOU'RE not my neither of my daughters' boyfriend or girlfriend Thom.

That's the problem with anecdotal, it doesn't mean anything.

I understand your point, but it works both ways. Seatbelts are a somewhat related issue. Seat belts save lives. Period. But I know several people who won't wear one because they know somebody who knows somebody that was trapped in a vehicle by one - malarkey!

You have to look at the preponderence of the evidence. Could a seatbelt trap you in a vehicle? I suppose. But how many accidents like that really happen in comparison to the total number of accidents where seatbelts were beneficial?

Hope I'm making sense.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. I didn't take your comments personally, I was just rephrasing them from my point of view for effect.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

And vice-versa, because that same anecdotal evidence could cost a life.

Why take a chance that NOT getting the vaccine could cost a life?

Nice try.

But anecdotal evidence is still not science. And if you're going to use that as an argument - for anything - then I'm glad YOU'RE not my neither of my daughters' boyfriend or girlfriend Thom.

That's the problem with anecdotal, it doesn't mean anything.

I understand your point, but it works both ways. Seatbelts are a somewhat related issue. Seat belts save lives. Period. But I know several people who won't wear one because they know somebody who knows somebody that was trapped in a vehicle by one - malarkey!

You have to look at the preponderence of the evidence. Could a seatbelt trap you in a vehicle? I suppose. But how many accidents like that really happen in comparison to the total number of accidents where seatbelts were beneficial?

Hope I'm making sense.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. I didn't take your comments personally, I was just rephrasing them from my point of view for effect.

That's good because my comment wasn't ment to be a personal attack.
I understand what you are saying, but let me ask you this.
How many miscarriages does it take to become scientific evidence?
If a woman gets the flu shot and has a miscarriage that her doctor verifies was caused by the vaccine doesn't that count?
Around here the H1N1 hasn't become a problem.
So far we have had 2 deaths and both where in old people who also had other conditions that played into their dieing.
As far as verified cases of the flu, haven't heard of very many here at all.
Even my daughters doctor told her that at this time the risk of complications from getting the shot was greater then the risk of getting the flu.
So far she is due on Dec. 24, is healthy as is the unborn grandson.
At this time her doctor, her, and I, feel the risk is greater with the shot then it is without the shot.

So how many lives should be lost waiting for the science to catch up.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

That's good because my comment wasn't ment to be a personal attack.
I understand what you are saying, but let me ask you this.
How many miscarriages does it take to become scientific evidence?
If a woman gets the flu shot and has a miscarriage that her doctor verifies was caused by the vaccine doesn't that count?
Around here the H1N1 hasn't become a problem.
So far we have had 2 deaths and both where in old people who also had other conditions that played into their dieing.
As far as verified cases of the flu, haven't heard of very many here at all.
Even my daughters doctor told her that at this time the risk of complications from getting the shot was greater then the risk of getting the flu.
So far she is due on Dec. 24, is healthy as is the unborn grandson.
At this time her doctor, her, and I, feel the risk is greater with the shot then it is without the shot.

But you didn't say "verified" in your earlier post.

Let me respond with a question.

What if the doctor said the child was lost because the mother did NOT get the vaccine? Which, would be much easier to verify. All you would have to do is see if the infant died from H1N1.

Kudos! That's excellent that it was discussed with her personal health care professional. That's what EVERYBODY should do, instead of getting their advice from those hawking "herbal remedies" and other garbage.

So how many lives should be lost waiting for the science to catch up.

So how many lives will be lost because people are believing in anecdotal nonsense?

Answer to both questions: Who knows? Discuss it with your health care provider not your buddies at work (for example).

All the best,
Michael

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

And vice-versa, because that same anecdotal evidence could cost a life.

Why take a chance that NOT getting the vaccine could cost a life?

Nice try.

But anecdotal evidence is still not science. And if you're going to use that as an argument - for anything - then I'm glad YOU'RE not my neither of my daughters' boyfriend or girlfriend Thom.

That's the problem with anecdotal, it doesn't mean anything.

I understand your point, but it works both ways. Seatbelts are a somewhat related issue. Seat belts save lives. Period. But I know several people who won't wear one because they know somebody who knows somebody that was trapped in a vehicle by one - malarkey!

You have to look at the preponderence of the evidence. Could a seatbelt trap you in a vehicle? I suppose. But how many accidents like that really happen in comparison to the total number of accidents where seatbelts were beneficial?

Hope I'm making sense.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. I didn't take your comments personally, I was just rephrasing them from my point of view for effect.

you're right. i should be able to not wear a seatbelt jsut because i dont want to wear a seatbelt.

the same with the vaccine. You or nobody else, is going to legislate requiring me to put something in my body, especially something that was rushed to production and barely tested. I've lived this long without have ANY flu-shots, i highly doubt i need one now

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

you're right. i should be able to not wear a seatbelt jsut because i dont want to wear a seatbelt.

the same with the vaccine. You or nobody else, is going to legislate requiring me to put something in my body, especially something that was rushed to production and barely tested. I've lived this long without have ANY flu-shots, i highly doubt i need one now

Darn right! And I'll be dog-goned if somebody is going to tell me how fast I can drive in a school zone, whom I can take money from, and that I can't do whatever I want!

LOL

@Sylvia, that's one reason why I said it's up to each person to make a decision, based on a serious discussion with THEIR health-care provider. I had you, and your situation, in mind when I said it.

You will all notice that nowhere have I said people should, or shouldn't, get the H1N1 vaccine.

The overriding issue, in my opinion, is that the article that was cited doesn't prove ANYTHING, at all. And it doesn't matter if you are for or against people getting vaccinated.

Now, to answer the question in the title of the post...

The answer is: Absolutely not.

All the best,
Michael

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

You will all notice that nowhere have I said people should, or shouldn't, get the H1N1 vaccine.

Umm....yes you did. You even said a pregnant woman should.

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Yes I would encourage a pregnant woman to get the vaccine.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Umm....yes you did. You even said a pregnant woman should.

LOL

You're right, Tim! Looks like I should get the Memory Vaccine.

However, it doesn't matter what I would encourage them to do, or not do. Just as they shouldn't listen to anybody that is not their personal trusted health care professional. That is still the overarching gist of it.

My new answer will be, "Talk to your doctor".

All the best,
Michael

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

The op brought this up because he apparently doesn't know if they should trust their personal trusted health care professional on this issue. Although I am someone who doesn't usually agree with the anti-vaccine group, in the case of pregnant women I think it's different.

BTW, I believe the nasal vaccine doesn't use any mercury. That might be the answer for pregnant women who are on the fence about this, or for parents of small children who are also not sure.

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

However, it doesn't matter what I would encourage them to do, or not do. Just as they shouldn't listen to anybody that is not their personal trusted health care professional.

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thatgirlJ

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

The op brought this up because he apparently doesn't know if they should trust their personal trusted health care professional on this issue. Although I am someone who doesn't usually agree with the anti-vaccine group, in the case of pregnant women I think it's different.

BTW, I believe the nasal vaccine doesn't use any mercury. That might be the answer for pregnant women who are on the fence about this, or for parents of small children who are also not sure.

The nasal version has live virus, so pregnant women actually can't get it in that form. There are mercury-free shots available, but they contain a myriad of other chemicals.

http://www.cdc.gov/H1N1flu/vaccinati...alspray_qa.htm

Who should not be vaccinated with the 2009 H1N1 nasal-spray flu vaccine LAIV?

Certain people should not get a nasal spray flu vaccine, including the 2009 H1N1 nasal spray vaccine. This includes:

People younger than 2 years of age;
Pregnant women;
People 50 years of age and older;
People with a medical condition that places them at higher risk for complications from influenza, including those with chronic heart or lung disease, such as asthma or reactive airways disease; people with medical conditions such as diabetes or kidney failure; or people with illnesses that weaken the immune system, or who take medications that can weaken the immune system;
Children younger than 5 years old with a history of recurrent wheezing;
Children or adolescents receiving aspirin therapy;
People who have had Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS), a rare disorder of the nervous system, within 6 weeks of getting a flu vaccine,
People who have a severe allergy to chicken eggs or who are allergic to any of the nasal spray vaccine components.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Thanks for the info Jenn. Yes, it makes sense that being pregnant would be different.

Originally Posted by Jenn Dize

The nasal version has live virus, so pregnant women actually can't get it in that form. There are mercury-free shots available, but they contain a myriad of other chemicals.

CDC H1N1 Flu |2009 H1N1 Nasal Spray Vaccine: Q & A

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ThomM

14 years ago

If the risk of swine flu is small enough in your area, ANY risk from the vaccine might be enough to support that conclusion as medically sound. That does not, however, necessarily translate to the populations in areas where the risk of infection is higher.

Very true Paul.
I would like to say that if I lived in a high risk area I would still feel the same way. However I can't say that with any honesty.
That all concerns my daughter and her doctor recommended that she not get the shot. So being that she trusts her doctor she took her advice.
As for myself I would never think of getting the shot simply because I've never gotten one in the past. I'm one of those people who rarely gets sick.
I think it's because my bodies to busy dealing with the aches and pains of younger and not so younger years of abuse:rolleyes:

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Darn right! And I'll be dog-goned if somebody is going to tell me how fast I can drive in a school zone, whom I can take money from, and that I can't do whatever I want!

Me not wearing a seat-belt is not the same thing as me blowing through a school zone or who i can take money from. Thats where common sense comes into play.

As for wearing a seatbelt, that decision affects only me, and as such should be my decision and mine alone.

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derekwong28

14 years ago

Since my whole family have already been infected, I haven't really been following this up. But I would probably not have hesitated to give them them the vaccine if they had not been infected.

From the available reports, I don't think the risk of a single course of vaccine is not that high. However, it is not known how long the vaccine will protect against infection. If you have to take it every year like the seasonal flu vaccine, the risks will add up.

It is really like flying. The risk of being involved in an accident with any particular flight is extremely small. However, the more flights you take, the more chances there are that you will be involved in an accident. However, the lifetime risk of being actually involved in an air traffic accident is still very very small.

Derek

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thunderbird

14 years ago

What is factually established is that no research whatsoever has been done on the effects of the Swine Flu vaccine on unborn babies. However, it is factually (if not yet "scientifically") established that several pregnant women suffered miscarriages shortly after getting the Swine Flu vaccine.

I am not actually advocating never to get vaccines for anything. For example, I believe anyone working with pet or wild animal rescue would be wise to get a rabies vaccine.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

What is factually established is that no research whatsoever has been done on the effects of the Swine Flu vaccine on unborn babies. However, it is factually (if not yet "scientifically") established that several pregnant women suffered miscarriages shortly after getting the Swine Flu vaccine.

I am not actually advocating never to get vaccines for anything. For example, I believe anyone working with pet or wild animal rescue would be wise to get a rabies vaccine.

So what? No non-pregnant men suffered miscarriages, correct?

It would be like saying 50 year men were diagnosed with enlarged prostates after getting the vaccine.

My point is not a chauvinistic one. My point is that they suffered miscarriages, which is tragic; a true loss. But just because they received the vaccine doesn't mean it was the CAUSE of the miscarriages.

One thing does not always cause another. Simple science.

Were these women in some high risk group. How has it been established "factually"?

All the best,
Michael

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

So what? No non-pregnant men suffered miscarriages, correct?

It would be like saying 50 year men were diagnosed with enlarged prostates after getting the vaccine.

My point is not a chauvinistic one. My point is that they suffered miscarriages, which is tragic; a true loss. But just because they received the vaccine doesn't mean it was the CAUSE of the miscarriages.

One thing does not always cause another. Simple science.

Were these women in some high risk group. How has it been established "factually"?

All the best,
Michael

It also doesn't mean it didn't cause the miscarriages.
Bottom line is this vaccine was never thoroughly tested, period.
Those receiving the vaccine are the test.

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Jay Rhome

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

But just because they received the vaccine doesn't mean it was the CAUSE of the miscarriages.

One thing does not always cause another. Simple science.

Were these women in some high risk group. How has it been established "factually"?

We can never make a 100% sure cause and effect link with a few cases. We basically must based our conclusions on lot of empirical data. If you read my post above, the problem is how we go about gathering that info.

If most people don't report the data, and if most of the data reported is discounted, we can never have the real life data, aka the "facts", to base our analysis on. The system is flawed from a scientific point of view.

Thus, our decisions are almost based on faith or convictions or whatnot. Some trust authorities, some don't. Some value anecdotal reports, some don't. I just for one wish we could trust authorities and have real data. It's far from the case.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jay Rhome

We can never make a 100% sure cause and effect link with a few cases. We basically must based our conclusions on lot of empirical data. If you read my post above, the problem is how we go about gathering that info.

If most people don't report the data, and if most of the data reported is discounted, we can never have the real life data, aka the "facts", to base our analysis on. The system is flawed from a scientific point of view.

Thus, our decisions are almost based on faith or convictions or whatnot. Some trust authorities, some don't. Some value anecdotal reports, some don't. I just for one wish we could trust authorities and have real data. It's far from the case.

That's why the best course of action is to discuss your specific case with your personal health care professional.

I don't think there's a better answer than that.

~M

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

That's why the best course of action is to discuss your specific case with your personal health care professional.

I don't think there's a better answer than that.

~M

Mike I got to agree with you here.

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thunderbird

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

So what? No non-pregnant men suffered miscarriages, correct?

It would be like saying 50 year men were diagnosed with enlarged prostates after getting the vaccine.

My point is not a chauvinistic one. My point is that they suffered miscarriages, which is tragic; a true loss. But just because they received the vaccine doesn't mean it was the CAUSE of the miscarriages.

One thing does not always cause another. Simple science.

Were these women in some high risk group. How has it been established "factually"?

All the best,
Michael

OK, I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is factual or not: Shocking H1N1 Swine Flu Vaccine Miscarriage Stories From Pregnant Women - Tell Your Doctors That Vaccines And Pregnancy Do Not Mix!

None of my wife's doctors have advocated that she get the vaccine. Unlike government health authorities, they actually read what's put on the vaccine labels by the drug-manufacturers themselves.

My wife, who has a science degree herself (Me? I'm just a peasant), says the health authorities have been decidedly unscientific and irresponsible in their rush to push the vaccine. Flu vaccine manufacturers clearly indicate that safety and effectiveness of their flu vaccines have NOT been established for pregnant women and nursing mothers - this includes H1N1 vaccines

"The ACIP policy recommendation of routinely administering influenza vaccine during pregnancy is ill-advised and unsupported by current scientific literature, and it should be withdrawn..." Influenza vaccination during pregnancy - A Critical Assessment of the Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices; Dr. David Ayoub, M.D. and F. Edward Yazbac, M.D.

Does H1N1 vaccine contain the same mercury as a little can of tuna?

Disclaimer: I'll be the first to admit, I distrust authority so will likely be biased against it from the get-go.

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Paul Myers 14 years ago

Michael,

That's the problem with anecdotal, it doesn't mean anything.

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'

Steve,

That is one of the most cogent arguments I've seen in here in a very long time. Context matters...

One of the smartest people I know online has been diagnosed as a "high-functioning autistic." He's one of a few people who, when he talks, has the credibility to make me stop and think. Every time, and in serious fashion. I don't always agree with him, but in the 9 years I've known him, he has never made an argument from which I didn't learn something useful.

Not once.

He is the walking definition of an Aspie. (His word, not mine.)

Thom,

So how many lives should be lost waiting for the science to catch up.

Loaded question, with all sorts of assumptions behind it that are not supported by the data. Nor, I hasten to add, contradicted by it.

The answer is: We don't know.

If the risk of swine flu is small enough in your area, ANY risk from the vaccine might be enough to support that conclusion as medically sound. That does not, however, necessarily translate to the populations in areas where the risk of infection is higher.

There is a difference, also, between correlation and causation.

One of my favorite comics, from xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe

Sylvia,

And that is why I decide against it for my children, based on my own discussions with my childrens pediatricians and the research I have done myself on it.

Best anyone can do, ma'am. Nothing to argue about there.

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Sylvia Meier

14 years ago

Wow heated debate. I will stay outta the autism/vaccine side of it because it is a cause too close to my heart and it would only end up too heated and I respect everyone here and would like to keep the relationships I have with them.

I do agree that everyone has their own right to decide and that the consequences of such decisions rest on those who made them.

And that is why I decide against it for my children, based on my own discussions with my childrens pediatricians and the research I have done myself on it. My peditrician for my youngest son does not believe vaccinations are necessary, and in cases like my sons, when they are born very early, with high levels of allergies and such, that the only thing to come from pumping their tiny little bodies full of this crap, is going to be bad stuff, that much outweighs the risks of catching the flu or other childhood illnesses.

Have I ran into issues with the school boards over the fact my childrens vaccinations are not up to date, yes, but after explaining my position, all my children attend the schools that said they couldn't.

Sylvia

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thatgirlJ

14 years ago

I am currently pregnant -- and there is no way I'm getting that vaccine

My OB is offering a mercury free version of the vaccine...and I'm still not getting it. They tell us not to eat deli meat or feta cheese for goodness sakes, but they want us to inject the flu virus and various chemicals (dead or not) into our BLOODSTREAM while carrying a tiny baby? No thanks.

The chances of something happening from getting the vaccine are incredibly slim. However, there is simply not enough evidence for me. Getting the vaccine does not completely prevent a person from getting H1N1 in the first place.

The chances of my getting H1N1 are relatively slim as well, since I work at home and my child is not in day care. If I do get it, my chances of having a bad case or even dying are higher than normal, but still incredibly low. It is a case of darned if you do, darned if you don't. I'm a very cautious person and completely believe in "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure," but I cannot bring myself to get this unproven vaccine.

I believe part of this is instinct about what is best for my baby. My toddler is not getting vaccinated either...(for H1N1, he is up to date on all other shots).

Sylvia, stories like yours (stronger than science) terrify me. I feel for you, mama.

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bozz723

14 years ago

Fact is the vaccine is poison and it all depends on how your body handles poison. The "science" involving the testing of these vaccines was financed by the respective pharmaceutical companies.

The fact is this vaccine was rushed out, is just as dangerous as the flu, and should be avoided.

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automarketting

14 years ago

just evalute urself how safe is h1n1 vacine is?

1)Dangerous compounds
Dangerous additives such as mercury and squalene were reported to be present in the H1N1 flu vaccine. These additives are known linked to the development of autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and lupus.

2)Triggering Of Deadly Nerve Disease
This vaccine has been linked to a deadly neurological disease known as Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS). GBS attacks the lining of your nerves, causing paralysis and inability to breath, and can be fatal.

3)Cancer Risk
In an interview with the press, German Medical Scientist Wolfgang Wodarg raised the concern of potential health risks associated with the swine flu vaccine. Dr. Wodarg in within his capacity as authoritative lung cancer expert is concern that the swine flu vaccine contains animal cancer cells and as such the long-term side effect of any allergic reaction when injected is not known.
The risk of contracting cancer is not known at this point of time.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

The vaccine is available without mercury and doesn't contain squalene:

H1N1 Swine Flu Vaccine FAQ

Originally Posted by automarketting

1)Dangerous compounds
Dangerous additives such as mercury and squalene were reported to be present in the H1N1 flu vaccine. These additives are known linked to the development of autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and lupus.

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

The vaccine is available without mercury and doesn't contain squalene:

H1N1 Swine Flu Vaccine FAQ

Not REALLY!!!!!!! They tell you about the potential of an option in a long document IN FINE PRINT perhaps AFTER the fact!

Steve
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- TimPhelan 14 years ago
  
  So, you are saying that if you request the vaccine without Thimerosal they will not give it to you??????? From what I have read, the nasal vaccine doesn't have thimerosal and the single dose shots also don't have thimerosal.
  
  Originally Posted by seasoned
  
  Not REALLY!!!!!!! They tell you about the potential of an option in a long document IN FINE PRINT perhaps AFTER the fact!
  
  Steve
  
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Nick Pena

14 years ago

I will keep my personal opinion on the use of the vaccine to myself. But I would like to share with all something that I am certain no warrior on the forum will disagree with; and that is some easy steps to protect yourself against any flu. The below steps are easy to follow and can have a great impact. Vaccine or not !

PROTECT YOURSELF AGAINST ANY FLU OR VIRUS
1) Get 8 hours sleep per night.
2) Eat healthy fresh fruits, vegetables -organic
3) Drink clean purified water -oxygenated
4) Do avoid stressful situations as much as possible.
5) Wash your hands and stay clean of germs in public.
6) If you are in public -wear a mask if it gets worse.
7) Get lots of exercise-fresh air.

Increase your Vitamins C and D and supplements.
9) Study, be aware-and know your rights to refuse this vaccine if you desire.
10) Tell your family, friends, and start a community awareness group.
11) Advise your doctor if you decide not to take it. Get there opinion on the subject.
12) Many health-care workers are refusing to take this vaccine-speak to them.
13) Avoid processed foods with chemicals, additives, colors, dyes, GMO's.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Nick Pena

I will keep my personal opinion on the use of the vaccine to myself. But I would like to share with all something that I am certain no warrior on the forum will disagree with; and that is some easy steps to protect yourself against any flu. The below steps are easy to follow and can have a great impact. Vaccine or not !

PROTECT YOURSELF AGAINST ANY FLU OR VIRUS
1) Get 8 hours sleep per night.
2) Eat healthy fresh fruits, vegetables -organic
3) Drink clean purified water -oxygenated
4) Do avoid stressful situations as much as possible.
5) Wash your hands and stay clean of germs in public.
6) If you are in public -wear a mask if it gets worse.
7) Get lots of exercise-fresh air.

Increase your Vitamins C and D and supplements.
9) Study, be aware-and know your rights to refuse this vaccine if you desire.
10) Tell your family, friends, and start a community awareness group.
11) Advise your doctor if you decide not to take it. Get there opinion on the subject.
12) Many health-care workers are refusing to take this vaccine-speak to them.
13) Avoid processed foods with chemicals, additives, colors, dyes, GMO's.

How will numbers 9, 10, 11 and 12 going to protect you from getting the flu?

The list, in its own way, reveals a certain stance of the person who wrote it.

But, the other items are good practices (#8 is questionable, but not unreasonable).

All the best,
Michael

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

How will numbers 9, 10, 11 and 12 going to protect you from getting the flu?

The list, in its own way, reveals a certain stance of the person who wrote it.

But, the other items are good practices (#8 is questionable, but not unreasonable).

All the best,
Michael

If you are deficient in C and/or D, it CAN hurt your immune system. Of course, you ALSO need some Bs, A,E, Magnesium, Zinc, Glutamine, and several other amino acids. C and D are MICRONUTRIENTS! For Magnesium you need about 400mg! For Glutamine, you may need several grams! It is remarkable how people will TOTALLY disregard the stuff that, by volume, is more important. Of course, if you don't get enough magesium or zinc, your body can leech it out of the bone(causing arthritis and osteoporosis). If you don't get enough amino acids, it can be leeched out of muscle(causing a loss of strength, etc....). Vitamins A,D, and E can be retrieved from fat maybe. But Vitamin B and C are harder to get internally!

Steve

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

If you are deficient in C and/or D, it CAN hurt your immune system. Of course, you ALSO need some Bs, A,E, Magnesium, Zinc, Glutamine, and several other amino acids. C and D are MICRONUTRIENTS! For Magnesium you need about 400mg! For Glutamine, you may need several grams! It is remarkable how people will TOTALLY disregard the stuff that, by volume, is more important. Of course, if you don't get enough magesium or zinc, your body can leech it out of the bone(causing arthritis and osteoporosis). If you don't get enough amino acids, it can be leeched out of muscle(causing a loss of strength, etc....). Vitamins A,D, and E can be retrieved from fat maybe. But Vitamin B and C are harder to get internally!

Steve

The reason I said it was questionable, but NOT unreasonable is that not all supplementation is good, nor is it always necessary, that's all.

Certain vitamins and minerals may reduce the risk of flu, but getting them in a whole, natural state is preferable when possible.

@thunderbird. Yes, I'm well aware of thalidomide, but that doesn't have anything to do with the H1N1 vaccine. Thalidomide wasn't a vaccine, but it was a tragedy. However, they are now finding that it may be good for treating certain conditions - of course it shouldn't be prescribed to any women who could potentially become pregnant.

All the best,
Michael

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thunderbird

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

<snip>

@thunderbird. Yes, I'm well aware of thalidomide, but that doesn't have anything to do with the H1N1 vaccine. Thalidomide wasn't a vaccine, but it was a tragedy.
<snip>
All the best,
Michael

No, it has nothing to do with H1N1 vaccine. My point is that just taking a doctor's word for it can have tragic consequences. The H1N1 vaccine is untested on pregnant women, and even the labels on the vaccine warned of this. The dangers of mercury are well documented and empirical evidence does suggest that the mercury in vaccines causes developmental problems in children. How it affects an unborn baby is unknown. The high incidence of miscarriages in pregnant women shortly after they received the vaccine suggests that the H1N1 vaccine may kill unborn babies (of course the vaccine manufacturers and doctors and nurses who promoted this vaccination in pregnant women will be covering their asses for legal reasons now).

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

No, it has nothing to do with H1N1 vaccine. My point is that just taking a doctor's word for it can have tragic consequences. The H1N1 vaccine is untested on pregnant women, and even the labels on the vaccine warned of this. The dangers of mercury are well documented and empirical evidence does suggest that the mercury in vaccines causes developmental problems in children. How it affects an unborn baby is unknown. The high incidence of miscarriages in pregnant women shortly after they received the vaccine suggests that the H1N1 vaccine may kill unborn babies (of course the vaccine manufacturers and doctors and nurses who promoted this vaccination in pregnant women will be covering their asses for legal reasons now).

Just as NOT listening to a doctor can have tragic consequences.

That's why I've been saying TRUSTED health professional. If you don't trust them, then why do you go them? Get one you trust. I've been careful to not use the word doctor (with one exception to avoid redundancy), because I know a lot of people don't trust ANY doctor. Go to your homeopath, or herbalist, or whatever - but remember, they are human too. AND some are shills for the herbal remedy companies just as some doctors are for pharmaceuticals.

-----

Again, the evidence is still anecdotal. I don't know if it's accurate or not, and neither do you. I admit that it could be, but you can't tell someone what to do for THEIR health based on such shaky evidence.

(Also, pregnant women are the only ones who can have miscarriages)

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with sharing anecdotal evidence as a way to get someone to talk to THEIR trusted health care provider.

All the best,
Michael

p.s. I hope I can find the study again, but it has been shown that REMOVING mercury in other vaccines may have caused a higher incidence of certain side effects.

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thunderbird

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Just as NOT listening to a doctor can have tragic consequences.

This is true. Basically, it is important to refer to many reliable information sources to to make a choice, and increase the probability of making the right decision.

(I'm not advocating a pro or con stance on alternative medicine here.)

<snip>

Go to your homeopath, or herbalist, or whatever - but remember, they are human too. AND some are shills for the herbal remedy companies just as some doctors are for pharmaceuticals.

Yes, indeed. Snake oil salesmen come in many forms.

-----

Again, the evidence is still anecdotal. I don't know if it's accurate or not, and neither do you. I admit that it could be, but you can't tell someone what to do for THEIR health based on such shaky evidence.

Fair enough.

(Also, pregnant women are the only ones who can have miscarriages)

My wife is pregnant. I didn't actually tell her what to decide (as if I could). She told me. After doing some reading, I had to agree with her. What I found out is really scary.

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thunderbird

14 years ago

From 1957-1961 doctors used to vigorously prescribe thalidomide to pregnant women to alleviate morning sickness. As a result of having full, unskeptical faith in their doctors' advice, they ended up with kids with flippers instead of normal arms or legs.

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seasoned

14 years ago

I was of the understanding that thalidomide was originally prescribed for miscarriages. Either way though, it was prescribed to the very people it should NOT have been.

TimPhelan,

There shouldn't even be an "option". They should NOT use MERCURY! PERIOD! Still, they do not tell you of an option, and you may not even really be aware of the outcome until you get the documents later, or perhaps do research, etc...

I heard the same thing you did about the nasal vaccine, and that simply WEAKENS their argument that it is needed.

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

The idea of mercury causing mental defect(NOT necessarily autism) has become popular knowledge at least as early as the 19th century!

Hat making
From the mid-18th to the mid-19th centuries, a process called "carroting" was used in the making of felt hats. Animal skins were rinsed in an orange solution (the term "carroting" arose from this color) of the mercury compound mercuric nitrate, Hg(NO3)2·2H2O.[78] This process separated the fur from the pelt and matted it together. This solution and the vapors it produced were highly toxic. The United States Public Health Service banned the use of mercury in the felt industry in December 1941. The psychological symptoms associated with mercury poisoning are said by some to have inspired the phrase "mad as a hatter", though etymological study suggests that the phrase is actually much older and unrelated to hatters - see hatter for commentary on the origin of the phrase. Lewis Carroll's "Mad Hatter" in his book Alice's Adventures in Wonderland was a play on words based on the older phrase, but the character himself does not exhibit symptoms of mercury poisoning.[79]

As mad as a hatter Let's remember that we just entered the 21st century, and the US didn't even exist until the later 18th century! So this is certainly NOT news! We are talking about probably over 200 YEARS ago!

Steve