Our Tax Dollars Hard At Work

14 years ago

Yep that is pretty messed up.

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Scot Standke

14 years ago

hmmm, that was produced by a government agency so it has to be in public domain.

think I'll do an audio version for those poor addicts that can't read.

"Know Your Tolerance"

"Use With Someone"

Too much lol

Scot

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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

Scott, That is .... (opinion muted) .... Next thing you know it will get a Billion $ for more research.

I'm just speechless!
Michael

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Patrician

14 years ago

Scott just talking to my son about an old family friend that died because he thought he could chippy - he wasn't a heroin user - just experimental

Figured the stuff was stepped on like everything else and shot up a pig pile.

Everybody loved this man and so they had given him pure uncut heroin

Martoon died in a hot tub without even re-registering at only 27.

So - Just don't do it. period.

alone, with someone else, unless you know your dealer.

I think the point here though is that users are going to use no matter what.

May as well be a little safer - no sharing, no shooting up alone, what Scott said.

They are on a death trip and it is hard to get them to do anything to the contrary.

and unless they steal
.... ya gotta love 'em.

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HeySal

14 years ago

There have been laws against this stuff for as long as I can remember - but the number of users just keeps rising. Some just plain don't realize how extremely addictive what they are messing with is and it would be nice for them to be around to have the choice to get help later. It would also be nice to not have one of our own family members in jeopardy when they need help because the police or ambulance are tied up on a drug call because someone is ODing. It is also nice to know that people will understand how to get their fix without starting a new chain of aids all over the city.

Some people take drugs. It might not be good for them. It might be illegal. But they don't deserve to die for getting addicted to something. Some will die anyway - but a lot will get a second chance. A second chance isn't all that much to ask for I wouldn't think.

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Scot Standke

14 years ago

I'm sorry, but to me, seeing our own government give an addict fresh needles and now a fricken "How-To" guide has to instill in their minds that it's OK to do this stuff. They should make it harder to use and do this stuff, not easier.

JMO

Scot

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Scot Standke

I'm sorry, but to me, seeing our own government give an addict fresh needles and now a fricken "How-To" guide has to instill in their minds that it's OK to do this stuff. They should make it harder to use and do this stuff, not easier.

JMO

Scot

Here's the alternative.

Lets say we just let mr/mrs heroin user go about their business, and sooner or later they get infected. 6 months down the road they decide to clean up and go the straight and narrow. They get a job, start getting out in the real world again, and you end up meeting Ms. 'I was a heroin junkie 6 months ago' at a bar one night and you two hook up. She forgets to tell you that little tidbit about being a former needle jockey and she hasn't had a physical since she decided to go straight, so she...and you, dont know she's now HIV positive from sharing dirty needles.

Or your NOW wife met Mr 'i was a heroin junkie 6 months ago', dated for a while and she didnt get a physical before or since she met you. Figures show that approx 3% of men that have sex with an HIV positive female 1 time will contract the disease...while 97% of the females who have sex with an hiv positive male 1 time will contract the disease. So guess what your wife has for you...the gift that keeps on giving. She doesnt know it and neither will you.

Amsterdam does the same thing with their heroin users since the mid 80's. They even go so far as to have vehicles that drive around distributing the needles

The needle and syringe exchange in Amsterdam was initiated in 1984 by the Junky Union. To date, ample data are available to support the role of the needle exchange in facilitating drug injectors to use drugs in a safer way: no increase in drug use could be validated, participants of the exchange schemes were less involved in needle sharing, the supply of large quantities of needles to drug users did not lead to an increase in needle stick accidents by the general public, and, finally, the HIV prevalence among drug injectors has remained stable since 1986, while the incidence of acute hepatitis B has gone down.

Effects of Amsterdam Needle and Syringe Exchange; Substance Use & Misuse - 26(12)

ages 1303-1311 - Informa Healthcare

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Scot Standke

I'm sorry, but to me, seeing our own government give an addict fresh needles and now a fricken "How-To" guide has to instill in their minds that it's OK to do this stuff. They should make it harder to use and do this stuff, not easier.

JMO

Scot

They tried making it harder.
The results where a rise in heroin use.
So the city spent 32,000 to educate junkies.
How much will that save the city.
If it keeps the junkies out of the hospitals it saves the city money (their public assistance pays the hospital bills or they are simply not paid) and it frees up the hospital emergency rooms for those that really need them.

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Profit-smart

14 years ago

I truly wish we would follow suit with Sweden. At least that way medical intervention isnt "scary" for users.

I've lost a handful of people very dear to me to heroin. If a proper system for rehabilitation was in place, I think those people might still be alive today.

Throwing people in prison for drug abuse (I'm not talking about trafficking, but use) makes no sense. It only serves to further remove them from mainstream society, and introduce them to new depths of criminal subculture.

I consider this move by the city of New York a very enlightened one. While it may not fix the problem, it will save lives.

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Sylvia Meier

14 years ago

Our city has the same sort of programs, Clean needles, used needle deposit boxes etc.

I figure they are going to do it, so why not make it a little safer for the rest of us.

What do I mean by that?

The last place we rented was across the street from a great little park, only problem was at night it was over run by addicts and it became so bad we wouldn't let the kids play at "needle park."

City installed deposit box by the playground (including lucky us, one right in front of our house), suddenly the park was clean of them. The junkies were willing to put them in the boxes.

Point being it was a very low income neighbourhood, where many young (we are talking really young, 2-3 year olds etc) children would go to play at the park without mum or dad, and who knows how many of them may have accidently poked themselves on a dirty needle left behind. The boxes have most likely saved lives. And for that, I would be more than willing to pay a little extra tax.

Sylvia

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HeySal

14 years ago

The only reason there ever WAS a war on drugs is because of all the money the "authoriities" got to rake in from it. Screw people's lives...it's money that matters.

Back when my Grandmother was a kid she could go to the local soda fountain and have a coke spoon of cocaine added to her cherry fosfades for a nickle. Back in those days you didn't hear much at all of people dying from cocaine overdoses - however, I'm sure there were some here and there. Then coke becomes illegal, the black market surges, prices surge, people start getting murdered, robbed, etc. Crack becomes a blackmarket rage......more people die and are rendered useless for anything else. The rest of society gets lucky only in as much as coke is snorted and smoked instead of shot interveneously.

Yep - laws have worked real well for us. Drugs used to be a personal problem and now they are a major social problem and a major funding expense. People don't need laws to dictate their behavior and often laws are counterproductive for the society in general............what people need is education, and a little hand up if they do something stupid that they later regret.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

The only reason there ever WAS a war on drugs is because of all the money the "authoriities" got to rake in from it. Screw people's lives...it's money that matters.

Back when my Grandmother was a kid she could go to the local soda fountain and have a coke spoon of cocaine added to her cherry fosfades for a nickle. Back in those days you didn't hear much at all of people dying from cocaine overdoses - however, I'm sure there were some here and there. Then coke becomes illegal, the black market surges, prices surge, people start getting murdered, robbed, etc. Crack becomes a blackmarket rage......more people die and are rendered useless for anything else. The rest of society gets lucky only in as much as coke is snorted and smoked instead of shot interveneously.

Yep - laws have worked real well for us. Drugs used to be a personal problem and now they are a major social problem and a major funding expense. People don't need laws to dictate their behavior and often laws are counterproductive for the society in general............what people need is education, and a little hand up if they do something stupid that they later regret.

Back then, cocaine was considered a vice, not a crime. And people didn't do it very much.

The real facts are, the drugs that were made illegal in the 1920's like pot, coke, and heroine have all had their usage go UP since made illegal.

On the other hand, drugs like alcohol and tabacco use have gone DOWN during that same time period, yet are legal.

The theory that if our gov makes something legal that usage will increase just isn't supported by actual history. The reality is, just the opposite has happened.

Let's make drugs legal again (with regulation). Legalized drugs worked far better for this country for the first 140 years of US history than it has for the past 90.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Back then, cocaine was considered a vice, not a crime. And people didn't do it very much.

The real facts are, the drugs that were made illegal in the 1920's like pot, coke, and heroine have all had their usage go UP since made illegal.

On the other hand, drugs like alcohol and tabacco use have gone DOWN during that same time period, yet are legal.

The theory that if our gov makes something legal that usage will increase just isn't supported by actual history. The reality is, just the opposite has happened.

Let's make drugs legal again (with regulation). Legalized drugs worked far better for this country for the first 140 years of US history than it has for the past 90.

Plus when the drugs where first made illegal it was to control different ethnic groups.
Opiates = Chinese
Cocaine = Blacks
Cannabis = Mexicans

I've said for years that one doesn't do a drug because it's illegal, but because they don't want to.

Education and voluntary treatment programs would go a lot further in stemming drug use then incarceration has.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Plus when the drugs where first made illegal it was to control different ethnic groups.
Opiates = Chinese
Cocaine = Blacks
Cannabis = Mexicans

I've said for years that one doesn't do a drug because it's illegal, but because they don't want to.

Education and voluntary treatment programs would go a lot further in stemming drug use then incarceration has.

If ANYTHING, not using those drugs HELPS the ethnic groups! BTW you made a MISTAKE!!!!

COCAINE=*******WHITES*******
CRACK=BLACKS

In fact, that is one argument some blacks have is that punishments for crack are worse than cocaine!

GEE, exagerate and then THIS!?!?!?

Steve

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

If ANYTHING, not using those drugs HELPS the ethnic groups! BTW you made a MISTAKE!!!!

COCAINE=*******WHITES*******
CRACK=BLACKS

In fact, that is one argument some blacks have is that punishments for crack are worse than cocaine!

GEE, exagerate and then THIS!?!?!?

Steve

Nope back when it was first made illegal it was focused on blacks.
It wasn't till later years that it became popular again with whites (70's)
Crack was/is considered a ghetto drug and is used as the new alternative to coke to suppress blacks. After all, coke is a white guy drug now:confused:

You're right though, not using those drugs would be the best option.
And as we have witnessed for the last 80 years or so making the drugs illegal and incarcerating users as done nothing but create more users.
So maybe try legalizing the drugs and offering honest drug education and voluntary treatment programs.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Nope back when it was first made illegal it was focused on blacks.
It wasn't till later years that it became popular again with whites (70's)
Crack was/is considered a ghetto drug and is used as the new alternative to coke to suppress blacks. After all, coke is a white guy drug now:confused:

You're right though, not using those drugs would be the best option.
And as we have witnessed for the last 80 years or so making the drugs illegal and incarcerating users as done nothing but create more users.
So maybe try legalizing the drugs and offering honest drug education and voluntary treatment programs.

Well, it seems kind of dumb. WHAT, are you saying we should make EVERYTHING legal? HEY, I never even took marijuana. I never smoked. I certainly never took cocaine or opium. And it isn't like I didn't have the opportunity. I went to a boarding school in highschool, and a famous singer's son(I'll just say his initials were BW and he was black) was there and he even had marijuana parties, I never went, but he stayed only about 1/2 a block away from me. I was once surprised(oddly enough by an even MORE famous singer's(Initials FS and he was white, and certainly NOT mexican) cousin!) when they started lighting up marijuana. I declined, and cut my visit short.

Sometimes I just can't understand people. I understand how making it illegal increases the risk, drives the cost up, and makes it seem rebelious, so people take the risks to get it to sell, etc.... But STILL, it is BAD! I mentioned how I was in a boarding school and OBVIOUSLY people SMOKED marijuana. Those bongs ALONE stink enough to turn me off the idea.

Steve

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Ken Strong 14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, it seems kind of dumb. WHAT, are you saying we should make EVERYTHING legal?

Why, yes.... not a bad idea. Definitely worthy of a serious discussion at least. The ones who benefit from the current drug laws are law enforcement agencies (who make a lot of money from confiscating property), the prison corporations (four-fold increase in drug-related prisoners in the last 25 years), the government (another legal tool to control the "undesirables"), and all the dealers and traffickers at all levels (a HUGE cash cow for them).

Of course, none of these groups are in favor of legalization as a lot of them would be put out of work (legal or illegal) and lose the power and status they now have.

Here's a great book you can read online for free (or your library might have it, too) about the idiocy and social costs that come from prosecuting victimless "crimes":

Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do

What the **** business does the government have telling me what I can do with my body? And why does it seem to be anti-regulation, anti-government "conservatives" who are most enthusiastic about morals-related laws?
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- Ken Strong 14 years ago
  
  Furthermore, $32k is such a tiny, tiny, tiny drop in the bucket compared to total government spending -- the government is spending BILLIONS of dollars on things that offend me much more than the idea that a handful of junkies in NYC are being given clean needles and pamphlets or whatever.
  
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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, it seems kind of dumb. WHAT, are you saying we should make EVERYTHING legal? HEY, I never even took marijuana. I never smoked. I certainly never took cocaine or opium. And it isn't like I didn't have the opportunity. I went to a boarding school in highschool, and a famous singer's son(I'll just say his initials were BW and he was black) was there and he even had marijuana parties, I never went, but he stayed only about 1/2 a block away from me. I was once surprised(oddly enough by an even MORE famous singer's(Initials FS and he was white, and certainly NOT mexican) cousin!) when they started lighting up marijuana. I declined, and cut my visit short.

Sometimes I just can't understand people. I understand how making it illegal increases the risk, drives the cost up, and makes it seem rebelious, so people take the risks to get it to sell, etc.... But STILL, it is BAD! I mentioned how I was in a boarding school and OBVIOUSLY people SMOKED marijuana. Those bongs ALONE stink enough to turn me off the idea.

Steve

Thanks for proving my point Steve.
Making the drugs illegal never did anything to curtail their use.
People don't do whatever they aren't doing because they don't want to do them.

But STILL, it is BAD!

No one is advocating that drug use is good.
But neither is creating criminals out of otherwise regular people who happen to have a problem that could be solved with (here I go again) education and treatment.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Back when my Grandmother was a kid she could go to the local soda fountain and have a coke spoon of cocaine added to her cherry fosfades for a nickle. Back in those days you didn't hear much at all of people dying from cocaine overdoses - however, I'm sure there were some here and there. Then coke becomes illegal,....

GEEE, I have ******NEVER****** heard of soda jerks offering cocaine for sale AT ALL!!!!!!!! WHY WOULD THEY!?!?!?!? Do you, by chance, mean coca COLA which WAS offered by soda jerks, WAS added to cherry, and had cocoa leaves which CONTAINED cocaine? I DOUBT anyone died from that since it was HEAVILY diluted and probably very hard to overdose on.

GEE, it is amazine how some things can be so exagerated!

BTW Drinking does NOT deliver even PURE cocaine as well as needles or through the nose.

Steve

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Profit-smart

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

GEEE, I have ******NEVER****** heard of soda jerks offering cocaine for sale AT ALL!!!!!!!! WHY WOULD THEY!?!?!?!? Do you, by chance, mean coca COLA which WAS offered by soda jerks, WAS added to cherry, and had cocoa leaves which CONTAINED cocaine? I DOUBT anyone died from that since it was HEAVILY diluted and probably very hard to overdose on.

GEE, it is amazine how some things can be so exagerated!

BTW Drinking does NOT deliver even PURE cocaine as well as needles or through the nose.

Steve

No Seasoned, it was pure cocaine. That was the point :p They made the jump over to using other parts of the Coca plant to produce Caffeine when Cocaine was banned.

Excerpt-

"The birth of the soda fountain began with the drug revolution of the 1850's. People would go to the local drugstore and procure a fountain drink to cure or aid some physical malady. Many of the fountain drinks were concoctions or extracts of various drugs that were flavored and effervesced to make them palatable. Drugs like cocaine and caffeine are maybe the most famous but bromides and various plant extracts were also commonly dispensed.

Many of the fountain drinks made by those early druggists contained cocaine and caffeine. The combination of cocaine and caffeine was used to effectively cure headaches. The problem was that rebound headaches would ensue and the patient would be back frequently for another drink to get rid of the pain."

Source-
Soda fountain history

The funny part-

Those old coca cola photos take on a different light when you consider the people in them are higher than a kite! :p

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Profit-smart

No Seasoned, it was pure cocaine. That was the point :p They made the jump over to using other parts of the Coca plant to produce Caffeine when Cocaine was banned.

Excerpt-

"The birth of the soda fountain began with the drug revolution of the 1850's. People would go to the local drugstore and procure a fountain drink to cure or aid some physical malady. Many of the fountain drinks were concoctions or extracts of various drugs that were flavored and effervesced to make them palatable. Drugs like cocaine and caffeine are maybe the most famous but bromides and various plant extracts were also commonly dispensed.

Many of the fountain drinks made by those early druggists contained cocaine and caffeine. The combination of cocaine and caffeine was used to effectively cure headaches. The problem was that rebound headaches would ensue and the patient would be back frequently for another drink to get rid of the pain."

Source-
Soda fountain history

The funny part-

Those old coca cola photos take on a different light when you consider the people in them are higher than a kite! :p

So then, why did they get rid of the cocoa leaves? Out of all the anecdotes I have heard, INCLUDING direct questions to people at COKE, THEY NEVER mentioned using COCAINE, but had it as a byproduct from cocoa leaves.

Still, what I said remains true, COCA COLA is NOT cocaine, never has been, and was ALSO mixed with many OTHER things, and is heavily diluted.

Steve

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

GEEE, I have ******NEVER****** heard of soda jerks offering cocaine for sale AT ALL!!!!!!!! WHY WOULD THEY!?!?!?!? Do you, by chance, mean coca COLA which WAS offered by soda jerks, WAS added to cherry, and had cocoa leaves which CONTAINED cocaine? I DOUBT anyone died from that since it was HEAVILY diluted and probably very hard to overdose on.

GEE, it is amazine how some things can be so exagerated!

BTW Drinking does NOT deliver even PURE cocaine as well as needles or through the nose.

Steve

originally coca-cola was had a bit of cocaine properties in it from the coca plant, which is what the drink was originally using in its ingredients. Coke at that time wwas sold as a 'pick me up' at the local soda fountains.

and yeah, drinking it does the same thing..actually chewing it does the same thing. Coca leaves in s. america are chewed by workers like workers here buy little bottles of ephedrine.

it doesnt matter how it gets in your body, it will do the same thing. I've seen people take it in via mouth, nose, needle, eyes and....well you can figure out the other area that has a mucous membrane...

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

originally coca-cola was had a bit of cocaine properties in it from the coca plant, which is what the drink was originally using in its ingredients. Coke at that time wwas sold as a 'pick me up' at the local soda fountains.

JUST MY POINT! THANKS!

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

and yeah, drinking it does the same thing..actually chewing it does the same thing. Coca leaves in s. america are chewed by workers like workers here buy little bottles of ephedrine.

More like ephedrA, and with the same relative kick. EphedrA is relatively harmless(It was outlawed because some REALLY overdosed on it and did STUPID things!), and can be used to refine its main active ingredient ephedrine. LIKEWISE, cocoa is relatively harmless and can be used to refine its main active ingredient cocaine.

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

it doesnt matter how it gets in your body, it will do the same thing. I've seen people take it in via mouth, nose, needle, eyes and....well you can figure out the other area that has a mucous membrane...

Actually, it DOES matter how it gets in! CHEWING it gives it a lot of contact with the mouth tissues and ever heard of sub-lingual? It is a good way to introduce drugs. Through the nose, you have even THINNER mucous membranes and closer blood vessels, and it is ANOTHER way! The eyes might be a good way also, but NOT confortable or safe. Of course, needles are BETTER! That is a GIVEN! DRINKING it is DIFFERENT! It is dilluted, not in the mouth long, and the stomach mixes it with many other things. That means you get less, and the delivery is SLOWER. Still, like I said, we are NOT talking cocaine, which is 100.00% cocaine! We are talking about Cocoa leaves which are MAYBE 000.9% cocaine. Talk about a difference! So EVEN a dose of 100%(if that were even possible) is less than 1% cocaine! In mice the LD50 is apparently 95.1 mg/kg! So I guess that means almost 5 grams to kill a small woman. So that is over 500 grams, or over 1 POUND, of cocoa leaves.

OK, OK, ONE site claims the human LD50 is only 500mg, though another DOES say 1200mg, but even about 2 ozs of cocoa leaves(500mg pure cocaine) sounds like a LOT! 5 grams of PURE cocaine, by comparison, could be perhaps 1 TEASPOON! So overdosing on PURE cocaine is FAR easier!

I apologize for any math mistakes and/or rounding errors, these are meant to be approximations, but you see my point.

Steve

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

GEEE, I have ******NEVER****** heard of soda jerks offering cocaine for sale AT ALL!!!!!!!! WHY WOULD THEY!?!?!?!? Do you, by chance, mean coca COLA which WAS offered by soda jerks, WAS added to cherry, and had cocoa leaves which CONTAINED cocaine? I DOUBT anyone died from that since it was HEAVILY diluted and probably very hard to overdose on.

GEE, it is amazine how some things can be so exagerated!

BTW Drinking does NOT deliver even PURE cocaine as well as needles or through the nose.

Steve

No Steve - I meant COCAINE - it was legal and you could buy a small bit to put in WHATEVER your soda fountain drink was. You could buy extra for your coca-cola, too - even though Coca Cola at that time already had cocaine in it - it was part of the original recipe.

I'm not talking about when you and I were kids -- I'm talking about when my GRANDMOTHER was a kid. So that would have been around 1910 we're talking about.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

No Steve - I meant COCAINE - it was legal and you could buy a small bit to put in WHATEVER your soda fountain drink was. You could buy extra for your coca-cola, too - even though Coca Cola at that time already had cocaine in it - it was part of the original recipe.

I'm not talking about when you and I were kids -- I'm talking about when my GRANDMOTHER was a kid. So that would have been around 1910 we're talking about.

I grew up around the 60s. I don't think they even had cocoa leaves in it back then.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

The only reason there ever WAS a war on drugs is because of all the money the "authoriities" got to rake in from it. Screw people's lives...it's money that matters.

Back when my Grandmother was a kid she could go to the local soda fountain and have a coke spoon of cocaine added to her cherry fosfades for a nickle. Back in those days you didn't hear much at all of people dying from cocaine overdoses - however, I'm sure there were some here and there. Then coke becomes illegal, the black market surges, prices surge, people start getting murdered, robbed, etc. Crack becomes a blackmarket rage......more people die and are rendered useless for anything else. The rest of society gets lucky only in as much as coke is snorted and smoked instead of shot interveneously.

Yep - laws have worked real well for us. Drugs used to be a personal problem and now they are a major social problem and a major funding expense. People don't need laws to dictate their behavior and often laws are counterproductive for the society in general............what people need is education, and a little hand up if they do something stupid that they later regret.

Yeah but that was back in the day before granny and her friends figured out they could have a hell of a lot more fun on a saturday night but cutting lines on the bar at the soda shop.

The laws didnt cause people to be stupid and start snorting/shooting/smoking coke in its various forms. Its people's inability to control themselves that makes laws a requirement. And people DO need laws to dictate their behavior because honestly most people are too fricken stupid to be left to their own devices in this country. If people didnt drive so fast they were a danger, we wouldnt need speed laws, if people didnt get so cranked up with coke that they were a danger to themselves and everyone around them, we wouldn't need the drug laws. Hell our founding fathers used coke, Benjamin Franklin had notable coke usage...but then again ben wasn't walking around with a glass pipe in his pocket and wasn't kicking on doors at 4am with a 20 in his hand.

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ThomM 14 years ago

The laws didnt cause people to be stupid and start snorting/shooting/smoking coke in its various forms.

And the laws haven't stopped people from snorting/shooting/smoking coke in its various forms either.
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TimPhelan 14 years ago

Nope. Cocaine was not isolated until 1855. Perhaps you are thinking of pot.

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Hell our founding fathers used coke, Benjamin Franklin had notable coke usage...

Plus, a spoonful of pure coke will likely kill most children.
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- Michael Motley 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TimPhelan
  
  Nope. Cocaine was not isolated until 1855. Perhaps you are thinking of pot.
  
  Plus, a spoonful of pure coke will likely kill most children.
  
  my bad...i was thinking of opium. (actually laudinum(sp?)
  
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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Yeah but its slowd themd own a little.

I dont have a problem with people that ingest coke. I have a problem with people who can't control themselves when they ingest coke.

I dont care what someone wants to do with their lives/bodies. You can smoke a cigar the size of a truck while walking down the street, buck naked with green jellow smeared all over yourself for all I care..it doesnt matter to me..untl you get jello on me. Then we have a problem.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Yeah but its slowd themd own a little.

I dont have a problem with people that ingest coke. I have a problem with people who can't control themselves when they ingest coke.

I dont care what someone wants to do with their lives/bodies. You can smoke a cigar the size of a truck while walking down the street, buck naked with green jellow smeared all over yourself for all I care..it doesnt matter to me..untl you get jello on me. Then we have a problem.

OK, Maybe your CAT can't even help me now. And to think I have said that sometimes I don't see things as well in my mind as I do with my eyes. You just painted a picture I DON'T want to see any more. 8-(

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Yeah but its slowd themd own a little.

I dont have a problem with people that ingest coke. I have a problem with people who can't control themselves when they ingest coke.

I dont care what someone wants to do with their lives/bodies. You can smoke a cigar the size of a truck while walking down the street, buck naked with green jellow smeared all over yourself for all I care..it doesnt matter to me..untl you get jello on me. Then we have a problem.

Mike every year drug use goes up. Currently Heroin has made a huge come back.
The laws have done nothing to slow down drug use.
Consider illegal drug use still cause way less deaths (all illegal drugs combined) then a poor diet or prescription drugs and yet the 'war' is on illegal drugs and not legal ones.
Annual Causes of Death in the United States | Drug War Facts
But then if they legalized and regulated them how would they fill all those prisons.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Mike every year drug use goes up. Currently Heroin has made a huge come back.
The laws have done nothing to slow down drug use.
Consider illegal drug use still cause way less deaths (all illegal drugs combined) then a poor diet or prescription drugs and yet the 'war' is on illegal drugs and not legal ones.
Annual Causes of Death in the United States | Drug War Facts
But then if they legalized and regulated them how would they fill all those prisons.

I agree that a 'war' on marijuana is stupid and pointless.

But i'm sorry, as far as i'm concerned, crackheads, cokeheads, heroin addicts...etc are flawed pieces of work that should be disposed of. Something tells me that might stem the flow

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I agree that a 'war' on marijuana is stupid and pointless.

But i'm sorry, as far as i'm concerned, crackheads, cokeheads, heroin addicts...etc are flawed pieces of work that should be disposed of. Something tells me that might stem the flow

But Mike disposing of them (as in incarceration) still isn't working.
Again educate and treatment.
Not to mention it's a biased war.
If you become an alcoholic you can get treatment for your sickness without any repercussions. But yet a heroin or crack addict can't. It's still a sickness yet those sick people are treated like criminals instead of like addicts,

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

But Mike disposing of them (as in incarceration) still isn't working.
Again educate and treatment.
Not to mention it's a biased war.
If you become an alcoholic you can get treatment for your sickness without any repercussions. But yet a heroin or crack addict can't. It's still a sickness yet those sick people are treated like criminals instead of like addicts,

Thats not true. An addict can walk into a million clinics, free and paid and get treated. But most addicts don't look for treatment until they are standing in front of a judge or when they are thrown in jail AFTER they commit some crime to fund their addction. Once that happens, they aren't just an addict, they are now a criminal and its not because of their addiction its because of the crime they committed due to their inability to handle their addiction.

Someone that spends all their waking time looking for that next bump or that next mainline know they are addicted, but they dont want to get help until they think it can save their a$$ in some way. Sorry about their luck too late by then.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Thats not true. An addict can walk into a million clinics, free and paid and get treated. But most addicts don't look for treatment until they are standing in front of a judge or when they are thrown in jail AFTER they commit some crime to fund their addction. Once that happens, they aren't just an addict, they are now a criminal and its not because of their addiction its because of the crime they committed due to their inability to handle their addiction.

Someone that spends all their waking time looking for that next bump or that next mainline know they are addicted, but they dont want to get help until they think it can save their a$$ in some way. Sorry about their luck too late by then.

So how many crimes do you see committed by someone looking for their next beer or cig.? Both of them cause addictions also, plus more people use alcohol and nicotine then crack or heroin and they are both more dangerous to your health and the health of others.
But then using alcohol or nicotine isn't illegal so the person using them isn't labeled a criminal to begin with. If they have a problem they are considered addicted and offered help.
When you use an illegal drug you are considered a criminal. If a person is already considered a criminal, where is their motivation to not commit criminal acts. Also illegal drug addicts are shunned by society where as legal drug addicts are embraced and considered to just have a sickness.

People have done drugs in one form or another since the beginning of recorded history and probably before that. Making them illegal has never worked, never, in stopping their use.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

So how many crimes do you see committed by someone looking for their next beer or cig.? Both of them cause addictions also, plus more people use alcohol and nicotine then crack or heroin and they are both more dangerous to your health and the health of others.
But then using alcohol or nicotine isn't illegal so the person using them isn't labeled a criminal to begin with. If they have a problem they are considered addicted and offered help.
When you use an illegal drug you are considered a criminal. If a person is already considered a criminal, where is their motivation to not commit criminal acts. Also illegal drug addicts are shunned by society where as legal drug addicts are embraced and considered to just have a sickness.

People have done drugs in one form or another since the beginning of recorded history and probably before that. Making them illegal has never worked, never, in stopping their use.

I'm sorry but 'beer and cigs' aren't any more of an addiction than weed.

Anyone who says they are addicted to any one of those three, isnt realy addicted, they just have a weak will/mind.

And yes, when you use an illegal drug, you are considered a criminal. Why? because you broke the law..thats why. And that doesnt give you carte blanche to keep on committing crimes.

And no, people have not had crack, crank, meth since the beginning of time and those drugs are in no way the same thing as weed or whatever. Those kind of drugs are made for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to get you deeply addicted. There was never a time in this or any other country when the naieve population said 'sprinkle meth on your cornflakes to add some pep in your step' so nobody can say 'well i didnt know..the advertising sucked me in...i was used to seeing all the generations before me using it and accepting its use as the norm.

It purpose from the instant it was created was to addict people.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I'm sorry but 'beer and cigs' aren't any more of an addiction than weed.

Anyone who says they are addicted to any one of those three, isnt realy addicted, they just have a weak will/mind.

And yes, when you use an illegal drug, you are considered a criminal. Why? because you broke the law..thats why. And that doesnt give you carte blanche to keep on committing crimes.

And no, people have not had crack, crank, meth since the beginning of time and those drugs are in no way the same thing as weed or whatever. Those kind of drugs are made for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to get you deeply addicted. There was never a time in this or any other country when the naieve population said 'sprinkle meth on your cornflakes to add some pep in your step' so nobody can say 'well i didnt know..the advertising sucked me in...i was used to seeing all the generations before me using it and accepting its use as the norm.

It purpose from the instant it was created was to addict people.

What's your medical background, or at least a qualified source, that backs up the theory that alcohol and tabacco aren't addictive, considering one of the more recent surgeon generals stated cigarettes are more addictive than crack?

As far as being a "criminal", this suggests they have been arrested and tried. Not to mention, I bet if I followed you in your car every day, I'd catch you breaking any number of laws, such as speeding, no turn signal, etc, each of which puts others at danger.

And back to my original post in this thread...Until 1919, our US government took the stance that using drugs was a vice and not a crime and it was none of the Country's business what a person put into their body. I contend that the gov. of a "free country" telling me what I can do to my own body is the real crime. And in truth, the "gov" is really people like you telling me what I can do or not do to myself. That's the real crime here.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

What's your medical background, or at least a qualified source, that backs up the theory that alcohol and tabacco aren't addictive, considering one of the more recent surgeon generals stated cigarettes are more addictive than crack?

I didnt say they arent addictive at all, I said they arent anymore addictive than pot. And do you want to know WHY cigarettes are 'more' addictive than crack? Because with cigarettes you have thousands/millions of people around the world that are smoking. It cant be bad right? hell look at how many people do it? Look at the cops that smoke, probably grew up with parents smoking, friends that smoke..etc. Its accepted. How can you possibly be in danger from something that accepted right?

You're not going to tell me that cigarettes are physically as addictive as concentrated cocaine. Cigs are addictive because the mind tells the smoker that its really not that dangerous, especially since its that accepted. If there was a way for people to actually OD and die relatively quick from tobacco use, watch and see how fast people who have been using gum, nasal sprays or whatever will suddenly find the will to drop that habit.

As far as being a "criminal", this suggests they have been arrested and tried. Not to mention, I bet if I followed you in your car every day, I'd catch you breaking any number of laws, such as speeding, no turn signal, etc, each of which puts others at danger.

And if i were caught breaking any number of those laws...what happens? Thats right, I get wrapped up in the legal system. Will I argue about it? Not if I have a brain in my head...I know I broke the law. Same with drugs. How are you going to argue that you're not guilty when you KNOW for a fact that its against the law to use or even possess these drugs. The only person that would begin to argue that point is an addict trying to justify their actions.

And back to my original post in this thread...Until 1919, our US government took the stance that using drugs was a vice and not a crime and it was none of the Country's business what a person put into their body. I contend that the gov. of a "free country" telling me what I can do to my own body is the real crime. And in truth, the "gov" is really people like you telling me what I can do or not do to myself. That's the real crime here.

No you want to know what the real crimes are?
Police suspect drug deal gone bad ended with man's murder
Shooting stems from "drug deal gone bad" | Oregon Local News - OregonLive.com
Drug Deal-Gone-Bad Ends With Stabbing, Crash - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego
LaGuardia Airport Shooting Was Drug Deal Gone Bad: Report
Drug Deal Gone Bad Ends In Fatal Shooting - News Story - WSB Atlanta
UNT Player From Rockdale Was Killed In Drug Deal Gone Bad
SPD Blotter Drug deal gone bad
Police: Ex-Michigan Wolverine Justin Feagin in failed drug deal - ESPN
Lake County man killed in drug deal gone bad in Cleveland | Metro - cleveland.com - cleveland.com

I could post links to drug fueled crimes all day

Probably up until 1919, we didn't have everyday citizens with the capability to take out a city block worth of people with the weapons they had in the private collection. Heavily addictive drugs (and sometimes just illegal drugs in general) aren't just illegal themselves. They end up generating all kinds of lovely people that will do ANYTHING to stop that gnawing that addiction puts on them. I have seen crackheads steal from their own grandmothers, addicted mothers with little children blowing guys in a parking lot while their small children wait right outside the car. If there were no drugs, there would be no addiction TO those drugs, and there would be no crime needed to feed that addiction.

I don't care what you put in your body until it starts affecting me. When your 'freedom' has you kicking my door in to get at the appliances in the house for pawnshops to feed your habit, or has us meeting late at night as you're trying to rob me, then your 'freedom' become irrelevant to me.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I didnt say they arent addictive at all, I said they arent anymore addictive than pot. And do you want to know WHY cigarettes are 'more' addictive than crack? Because with cigarettes you have thousands/millions of people around the world that are smoking. It cant be bad right? hell look at how many people do it? Look at the cops that smoke, probably grew up with parents smoking, friends that smoke..etc. Its accepted. How can you possibly be in danger from something that accepted right?

You're not going to tell me that cigarettes are physically as addictive as concentrated cocaine. Cigs are addictive because the mind tells the smoker that its really not that dangerous, especially since its that accepted. If there was a way for people to actually OD and die relatively quick from tobacco use, watch and see how fast people who have been using gum, nasal sprays or whatever will suddenly find the will to drop that habit.
And if i were caught breaking any number of those laws...what happens? Thats right, I get wrapped up in the legal system. Will I argue about it? Not if I have a brain in my head...I know I broke the law. Same with drugs. How are you going to argue that you're not guilty when you KNOW for a fact that its against the law to use or even possess these drugs. The only person that would begin to argue that point is an addict trying to justify their actions.
No you want to know what the real crimes are?
Police suspect drug deal gone bad ended with man's murder
Shooting stems from "drug deal gone bad" | Oregon Local News - OregonLive.com
Drug Deal-Gone-Bad Ends With Stabbing, Crash - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego
LaGuardia Airport Shooting Was Drug Deal Gone Bad: Report
Drug Deal Gone Bad Ends In Fatal Shooting - News Story - WSB Atlanta
UNT Player From Rockdale Was Killed In Drug Deal Gone Bad
SPD Blotter Drug deal gone bad
Police: Ex-Michigan Wolverine Justin Feagin in failed drug deal - ESPN
Lake County man killed in drug deal gone bad in Cleveland | Metro - cleveland.com - cleveland.com

I could post links to drug fueled crimes all day

Probably up until 1919, we didn't have everyday citizens with the capability to take out a city block worth of people with the weapons they had in the private collection. Heavily addictive drugs (and sometimes just illegal drugs in general) aren't just illegal themselves. They end up generating all kinds of lovely people that will do ANYTHING to stop that gnawing that addiction puts on them. I have seen crackheads steal from their own grandmothers, addicted mothers with little children blowing guys in a parking lot while their small children wait right outside the car. If there were no drugs, there would be no addiction TO those drugs, and there would be no crime needed to feed that addiction.

I don't care what you put in your body until it starts affecting me. When your 'freedom' has you kicking my door in to get at the appliances in the house for pawnshops to feed your habit, or has us meeting late at night as you're trying to rob me, then your 'freedom' become irrelevant to me.

All those links to stories that wouldn't of happened if drugs where legal.
But then I already know you'll never get it Mike.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

All those links to stories that wouldn't of happened if drugs where legal.
But then I already know you'll never get it Mike.

Really? So after drugs are legal, the hardcore drug addicts wont continue to do stupid sh*t?

I get the feeling that you and I have probably had similar experiences with drug use and users.

And im betting that you have been around, been involved or atleast seen completely stupid crap go on that was directly caused by drug use..because I know I have.

Now are you going to try to sit there with a straight face and tell me that if tomorrow we waved a magic wand and made all the drugs suddenly legal that every dope head would instantly stop doing stupid sh*t? No longer would twisted up crackheads think they can fly and nose dive off buildings? Coke heads would suddenly be model citizens behind the wheel and never do stupid crap like drive through restraunts because little purple people were crawling up their legs in the drive thru? As soon as we legalize everything you'll never again hear of some guy cranked up on meth beath the **** out of his wife or take a ballbat to his entire family and then try to go head to head with 15 police when they pull up to take him to jail? Hey there shouldnt be anything to worry about when your children are being driven to school by the bus driver who is on the 'day after' their first acid trip right? Its not the legality that makes the dope head do stupid crap AFTER they injest the drug. The legality is what makes them do stupid crap BEFORE they injest the drugs

Puhlease. The only way complete legalization would work is if every person that wants to injest the hardcore stuff gets segregated from the rest of the population to do what they want. Let them pack their needles and glass pipes up and head off to some remote island or behind the walls of a pennitentary that releases them if/when the effects of the drugs wear off and THEN there wont be an issue for everyone else that DOESNT want to piss away their lives on drugs.

The only 'good' thing about total legalization is that in the first initial years there would be so many OD's that would clean out the 'amateurs' from the drug user ranks, that the time everyone had to wait for the rest of the idiots to off themselves with their recreational drug of choice would be greatly reduced.

Now lets be clear. I agree that a 'war' on something like marijuana is completely stupid..and yes THAT should be legalized. But there isn't a 'freedom' argument in the world that is going to justify letting people run loose with their stupidity and ignorance when those decisions can and do affect everyone around them. Hey how about we just get rid of all the gun laws too. I know a couple 12 year old that would love a nice armor piercing AK for the back yard. Dont need those speed laws, because lord knows every idiot you see thats blowing by me at 120+ in that beater with the tires you can see treads on and flapping fenders will NEVER affect you when the brakes on that bucket fail as they come screaming up behind you at a stoplight right?

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Really? So after drugs are legal, the hardcore drug addicts wont continue to do stupid sh*t?

...

Now are you going to try to sit there with a straight face and tell me that if tomorrow we waved a magic wand and made all the drugs suddenly legal that every dope head would instantly stop doing stupid sh*t? No longer would twisted up crackheads think they can fly and nose dive off buildings? Coke heads would suddenly be model citizens behind the wheel and never do stupid crap like drive through restraunts because little purple people were crawling up their legs in the drive thru?

And the same point can be made about alcohol, right?

However, you made my point with these past comments. See, you have the misguided opinion that legalizing these drugs will increase their usage, which history has shown to be totally wrong. So if you want less stupid stuff to happen, then you LEGALIZE drugs.

Your entire argument is based on the opinion that making drugs legal will increase usage, but as I pointed out, this wasn't the case in REALITY.

Also, not everyone that does these drugs does dumb stuff. Those that do, go to jail....And with drugs being legal, we'll not only have the money for GOOD drug treatment programs, we'll also have more room to put the people in prison for doing "stupid stuff", instead of releasing true criminals because of over-crowding, because our prisons are full of people that used drugs.

BTW, where does the money for drugs going now? You don't think the smugglers, cartels and gangs do "stupid" stuff, like murder people?

Your way: Give the money to cartels, gangs and smugglers. Good idea, let's reward the absolute scum of society.

My way: Give the money to our gov, to help treat drugs and fight crime.

Plus, drugs are drugs. They should be treated by the medical community, not the law-enforcement community.

Know what you have when you release a crackhead from jail after 10 years? A crackhead that hasn't done crack for 10 years. If you really don't want this person to do "stupid" stuff, then give him treatment by the medical community, not punishment with no rehab...That's just stupid and it's what we're doing now.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Know what you have when you release a crackhead from jail after 10 years? A crackhead that hasn't done crack for 10 years. If you really don't want this person to do "stupid" stuff, then give him treatment by the medical community, not punishment with no rehab...That's just stupid and it's what we're doing now.

Gee, make up your mind. if he hasn't done crack in 10 years, he can't claim he is addicted to it.

maybe he should just STAY off it.

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Kurt 14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Gee, make up your mind. if he hasn't done crack in 10 years, he can't claim he is addicted to it.

maybe he should just STAY off it.

Gee, your ignorance concerning addiction is showing.
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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

And the same point can be made about alcohol, right?

However, you made my point with these past comments. See, you have the misguided opinion that legalizing these drugs will increase their usage, which history has shown to be totally wrong. So if you want less stupid stuff to happen, then you LEGALIZE drugs.

legalizing ALL drugs is retarded.

Your entire argument is based on the opinion that making drugs legal will increase usage, but as I pointed out, this wasn't the case in REALITY.

Your opinion can only be based on anecdotal information, because no country has actually had a full bore legalization for every drug. Why? Because its stupid thats why.

Also, not everyone that does these drugs does dumb stuff. Those that do, go to jail....And with drugs being legal, we'll not only have the money for GOOD drug treatment programs, we'll also have more room to put the people in prison for doing "stupid stuff", instead of releasing true criminals because of over-crowding, because our prisons are full of people that used drugs.

Yes, all the really really smart people are cramming crap in their bodies they can't even pronounce, not knowing where its produced, by people who's motivation is profit and addiction. That is no doubt the arena of the really intelligent in the population.

BTW, where does the money for drugs going now? You don't think the smugglers, cartels and gangs do "stupid" stuff, like murder people?

Your way: Give the money to cartels, gangs and smugglers. Good idea, let's reward the absolute scum of society.

I'm not worried about getting killed by a cartel in a country i've never been to nor will ever go to. I AM however worried about getting killed by the doped out moron behind the wheel next to me on the highway, or the idiot in the house next door who starts firing through the walls with his rifle because he thinks the DEA is tunneling through his refrigerator to come get him.

My way: Give the money to our gov, to help treat drugs and fight crime.

Plus, drugs are drugs. They should be treated by the medical community, not the law-enforcement community.

So wait..now 'drugs are drugs'. Arent you one of the ones crying about the poor wasted lives of people in prison for 'minor' offenses like possession of weed and why are we filling up the prison with these guys who are obviously not dangerous? Pick a side of this fence and get on it.

Know what you have when you release a crackhead from jail after 10 years? A crackhead that hasn't done crack for 10 years. If you really don't want this person to do "stupid" stuff, then give him treatment by the medical community, not punishment with no rehab...That's just stupid and it's what we're doing now.

after 10 years in the slam...he's got all the rehab he can get..its called drying out. If after 10 years of no crack he's not well, then weekly A.A. meetings aren't going to cure him. But bullets are cheap..we can clean this problem up real quick

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

legalizing ALL drugs is retarded.

Your opinion can only be based on anecdotal information, because no country has actually had a full bore legalization for every drug. Why? Because its stupid thats why.

Yes, all the really really smart people are cramming crap in their bodies they can't even pronounce, not knowing where its produced, by people who's motivation is profit and addiction. That is no doubt the arena of the really intelligent in the population.

I'm not worried about getting killed by a cartel in a country i've never been to nor will ever go to. I AM however worried about getting killed by the doped out moron behind the wheel next to me on the highway, or the idiot in the house next door who starts firing through the walls with his rifle because he thinks the DEA is tunneling through his refrigerator to come get him.

So wait..now 'drugs are drugs'. Arent you one of the ones crying about the poor wasted lives of people in prison for 'minor' offenses like possession of weed and why are we filling up the prison with these guys who are obviously not dangerous? Pick a side of this fence and get on it.

after 10 years in the slam...he's got all the rehab he can get..its called drying out. If after 10 years of no crack he's not well, then weekly A.A. meetings aren't going to cure him. But bullets are cheap..we can clean this problem up real quick

Wow that's a good arguement, "it's retarded".
Portugal has.
Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work? - TIME
The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.
"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Wow that's a good arguement, "it's retarded".
Portugal has.
Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work? - TIME
The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.
"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."

And do you really think that the effects of something like this in a country like portugal is really going to mirror what will happen in a country with the dynamics like the u.s.? They arent even on the same playing field.

And what other response besides 'retarded' would you need for an idea like an open drug market. Because unless you you make an open drug policy for every single country on this planet, then all you have done is given free access to narcotics in a country full of capitalists. In effect, you've just created a well funded and motivated drug cartel thats completely legal.

Yeah, im looking forward to living in a country full of drug dealers because dope addicts and the friends of dope addicts think its unfair that they get thrown in jail because they break the law.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

And do you really think that the effects of something like this in a country like portugal is really going to mirror what will happen in a country with the dynamics like the u.s.? They arent even on the same playing field.

And what other response besides 'retarded' would you need for an idea like an open drug market. Because unless you you make an open drug policy for every single country on this planet, then all you have done is given free access to narcotics in a country full of capitalists. In effect, you've just created a well funded and motivated drug cartel thats completely legal.

Yeah, im looking forward to living in a country full of drug dealers because dope addicts and the friends of dope addicts think its unfair that they get thrown in jail because they break the law.

You're right, there are to many idiots in the US to allow a sensible drug reduction plan to work. Your last paragraph proves that.
Like was stated before, drug use is up in the U.S. In case you didn't notice there are already dealers on every corner and the gangs and cartels are laughing all the way to the bank. The US has about 5% of the worlds population and 25% of the worlds prison population thanks to our 'war on drugs'. Yep that's working real good.
If you read that article you would of seen that Portugal provides treatment for users and hard time for dealers and suppliers. Here we arrest the users while the big guys either get away or if arrested there's someone else waiting in the wings to take their place. Why? Because illegal drugs are a very high profit business.
Mike you already live in a country filled with drug dealers and users, it's at epidemic proportions now with drugs being illegal for almost a century.
Only a blind man or idiot would think our current policies are working, and I think the blind man could still see they have failed.
Do you really think if drugs where legal more people would do them?
We're not talking about giving users a free ride, we're talking about decriminalizing drugs and treating users instead of arresting them.
We're talking about focusing on the drug cartels and drug gangs, those are the real criminals.
Can you honestly say you have never done an illegal drug and don't know anyone else that has?
If you answered yes (if you said no you are lieing) then by your own thinking you should be in prison.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

If you read that article you would of seen that Portugal provides treatment for users and hard time for dealers and suppliers. Here we arrest the users while the big guys either get away or if arrested there's someone else waiting in the wings to take their place. Why? Because illegal drugs are a very high profit business.

why so the users get off with less than 'hard time' when they are just as guilty as the dealer? How is that fair?

Mike you already live in a country filled with drug dealers and users, it's at epidemic proportions now with drugs being illegal for almost a century.
Only a blind man or idiot would think our current policies are working, and I think the blind man could still see they have failed.

I also live in a country with pedophiles and victims, but that doesnt mean it needs to be legalized.

Do you really think if drugs where legal more people would do them?
We're not talking about giving users a free ride, we're talking about decriminalizing drugs and treating users instead of arresting them.
We're talking about focusing on the drug cartels and drug gangs, those are the real criminals.
Can you honestly say you have never done an illegal drug and don't know anyone else that has?
If you answered yes (if you said no you are lieing) then by your own thinking you should be in prison.

decriminalizing a drug like weed and decriminalizing a drug like crank or meth is two different things

And like i have stated over and over again..yeah, i've done this and that and i KNEW doing it that it was illegal and HAD i been caught there wouldn't be anything i could bitch about because i knowingly broke the law, like every other drug user. And I also have never done any drugs that would cause me to be a danger to others in any way...that is a major point here that you and your sidekick forget when we're talking about this.

And IF it really bothered me that it was illegal, then i would go about changing the laws, not just doing what I want to do because it suits me..thats how being a nation of laws works.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

why so the users get off with less than 'hard time' when they are just as guilty as the dealer? How is that fair?

I also live in a country with pedophiles and victims, but that doesnt mean it needs to be legalized.

decriminalizing a drug like weed and decriminalizing a drug like crank or meth is two different things

And like i have stated over and over again..yeah, i've done this and that and i KNEW doing it that it was illegal and HAD i been caught there wouldn't be anything i could bitch about because i knowingly broke the law, like every other drug user. And I also have never done any drugs that would cause me to be a danger to others in any way...that is a major point here that you and your sidekick forget when we're talking about this.

And IF it really bothered me that it was illegal, then i would go about changing the laws, not just doing what I want to do because it suits me..thats how being a nation of laws works.

Are you saying you NEVER had a drink of alcohol? I hate to be the first to tell you this, but alcohol is used in an alarming number of violent crimes.

Based on published studies, Roizen (3) summarized the percentages of violent offenders who were drinking at the time of the offense as follows: up to 86 percent of homicide offenders, 37 percent of assault offenders, 60 percent of sexual offenders, up to 57 percent of men and 27 percent of women involved in marital violence, and 13 percent of child abusers. These figures are the upper limits of a wide range of estimates. In a community-based study, Pernanen (4) found that 42 percent of violent crimes reported to the police involved alcohol, although 51 percent of the victims interviewed believed that their assailants had been drinking.

http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/angeralcohol.html

So you have either never, ever had a drink, or you are clueless.

BTW, iIt seems to me if you were really "bothered" about drugs, crime and violence, you'd "go about" changing the laws to make alcohol illegal...Oh wait, we already tried that with alcohol...How'd that work out? Maybe we should ask Al Capone.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

legalizing ALL drugs is retarded.

As Thom pointed out, what a retarded response. Good one, bet you were up all night thinking up that thoughtful and original response.

Your opinion can only be based on anecdotal information, because no country has actually had a full bore legalization for every drug. Why? Because its stupid thats why.

And your opinion is based on NOTHING but your opinion. You have NOTHING to back up your point, which is, if heroine is make legal tomorrow, all sorts of people will start doing heroine.

I've actually asked people this question over the years, and I haven't met a person yet that said they'd do heroine if it became legal tomorrow...

Yes, all the really really smart people are cramming crap in their bodies they can't even pronounce, not knowing where its produced, by people who's motivation is profit and addiction. That is no doubt the arena of the really intelligent in the population.

Another good point for legalizing drugs, thanks...So users know that their drugs are "clean".

Plus, back up your statement that drug abuse is correlated with IQ.

I'm not worried about getting killed by a cartel in a country i've never been to nor will ever go to. I AM however worried about getting killed by the doped out moron behind the wheel next to me on the highway, or the idiot in the house next door who starts firing through the walls with his rifle because he thinks the DEA is tunneling through his refrigerator to come get him.

Don't read the news much? The street crime from drugs is all along the US/Mexico border and is bleeding into the US border towns. Just because you don't live in a border town doesn't change my opinion.

A number of experts have said this is the biggest threat to our national security, as the cartels are trading drugs for guns, then selling the guns to whoever wants them.

Plus, we're sending our MONEY to other countries. In addition to hurting our economy, in the case of heroine, this money is then used to for people to harm the US. This is a point you over-looked.

Also, legalizing drugs doesn't mean that drug users get a "get out of jail free" card. Not sure why you feel those that drive while intoicated would all of a sudden become legal. drivers. My feeling is, if you want to do drugs, fine, but only in your own home.

As a matter of fact, if drugs were legal, I would support a law that doubles the penalty for commiting crimes while on drugs...And I've have the room in jails and the money to do it. You want me to pay more taxes instead of taking the money from the gangs and the cartels. Great.

So wait..now 'drugs are drugs'. Arent you one of the ones crying about the poor wasted lives of people in prison for 'minor' offenses like possession of weed and why are we filling up the prison with these guys who are obviously not dangerous? Pick a side of this fence and get on it.

Yes, I am "one of those"...However, there's a difference between using drugs and doing the crimes you brought up in this discussion...Try to keep up.

Here's where you got lost...You gave some exact situations in this thread, which I responded to. Now, you are trying to twist it to a blanket statement that everyone that does drugs is "stupid".

after 10 years in the slam...he's got all the rehab he can get..its called drying out. If after 10 years of no crack he's not well, then weekly A.A. meetings aren't going to cure him.

So, you're now a rehab expert, too? There's a reason many treatment programs will say something like "I'm an alcoholic, been sober for 10 years".

And there's a HUGE difference between "drying out" and getting treatment. Cops and lock-keys don't know the chemistry, it isn't their job.

But bullets are cheap..we can clean this problem up real quick

Yeah, but I'd get tossed in prison for shooting you.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

*snip*

You're starting to sound like someone thats arguing not because he thinks there is injustice, but because he doesnt want to give up his stash.

I need to go ready my house for possible attack from the drug dealers in the border towns of georgia and alabama. Its been a slice.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

You're starting to sound like someone thats arguing not because he thinks there is injustice, but because he doesnt want to give up his stash.

I need to go ready my house for possible attack from the drug dealers in the border towns of georgia and alabama. Its been a slice.

When you are asked to post facts to back up your posts, you resort to ad hominem attacks. You're begining to sound like someone that NEEDS a stash, as reality isn't your strong point.

History shows you are wrong. You say it's "anecdotal", but you haven't offered anything to back up your own OPINION. Nothing. Nada. Zip. "anecdotal" is far better than "nothing".

Thom links to Portugal's strategy for dealing with the drug problem, and you discount it, again without offering anything more than some dumbass comments, nothing to back it up.

BTW, I already said I don't care that you don't live in a border state...You're so easy to predict, I responded to your post before you even made it...BTW, do you play poker? I smell easy money.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

When you are asked to post facts to back up your posts, you resort to ad hominem attacks. You're begining to sound like someone that NEEDS a stash, as reality isn't your strong point.

History shows you are wrong. You say it's "anecdotal", but you haven't offered anything to back up your own OPINION. Nothing. Nada. Zip. "anecdotal" is far better than "nothing".

Thom links to Portugal's strategy for dealing with the drug problem, and you discount it, again without offering anything more than some dumbass comments, nothing to back it up.

BTW, I already said I don't care that you don't live in a border state...You're so easy to predict, I responded to your post before you even made it...BTW, do you play poker? I smell easy money.

Yeah, why would you care about things that actually make a difference in this discussion...such as no country ever having documented proof that full legalization of all drugs is in anyway a benefit to anyone but the street junkie...that would just throw a wrench in your fantasy about all addicts are really just nice people that need a helping hand.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Yeah, why would you care about things that actually make a difference in this discussion...such as no country ever having documented proof that full legalization of all drugs is in anyway a benefit to anyone but the street junkie...that would just throw a wrench in your fantasy about all addicts are really just nice people that need a helping hand.

Why don't you quit lying and putting words in my mouth? I know, because all you have is ad homenim attacks.

Not to mention, who the hell are you to tell someone what they can do with their own body in a "free" country? Quit playing God.

And, your point is bogus as always. Show us a country that has "full legalization".

Try www.rip.com (Reading is Fundamental)...That way, next time you read this thread you'll understand I posted above that if drugs were legal, I'd advocate that anyone commiting a crime get double the penalty, including things like DUI, etc. Kind of shoots a hole in this last theory of your's that I think addicts are all great people...

Your problem (of many) is that you say all addicts are a danger to society. Got news for you...90+% of all addicts are functional and hold jobs. But you want to throw them in prison at a cost of something like $80,000 a year that I have to pay.

I say, make the drugs legal, use that money to pay for rehab and prisons, instead of gangsters getting rich and making me have to pay the bill for prison. Let the heroin users pay for heroin treatment, not me.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Why don't you quit lying and putting words in my mouth? I know, because all you have is ad homenim attacks.

Not to mention, who the hell are you to tell someone what they can do with their own body in a "free" country? Quit playing God.

And, your point is bogus as always. Show us a country that has "full legalization".

NONE have full legalization...thats my point. Why do you think that is?

Try www.rip.com (Reading is Fundamental)...That way, next time you read this thread you'll understand I posted above that if drugs were legal, I'd advocate that anyone commiting a crime get double the penalty, including things like DUI, etc. Kind of shoots a hole in this last theory of your's that I think addicts are all great people...

Your problem (of many) is that you say all addicts are a danger to society. Got news for you...90+% of all addicts are functional and hold jobs. But you want to throw them in prison at a cost of something like $80,000 a year that I have to pay.

I say, make the drugs legal, use that money to pay for rehab and prisons, instead of gangsters getting rich and making me have to pay the bill for prison. Let the heroin users pay for heroin treatment, not me.

yeah..reading may be fundamental..but spelling isnt.

90+% of the pedophiles probably hold jobs too.
Probably quite a few mass murderers hold jobs

federal level prisons pay about 35k per head but dont let facts slow you down turbo

yeah...lets use the money from drug sales. Surely a group that is now breaking the law will pay taxes. Hey, exactly how are you going to tax bj's, and children traded for drugs?

Oh thats right, we dont need to worry about that, because making these drugs illegal will put money in the addicts pocket so that they can feed their ever growing addiction....and legalization will stop them from doing crazy stuff like trading sex or their children for addictions they can't pay for.

excellent idea!

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

NONE have full legalization...thats my point. Why do you think that is?

yeah..reading may be fundamental..but spelling isnt.

90+% of the pedophiles probably hold jobs too.
Probably quite a few mass murderers hold jobs

federal level prisons pay about 35k per head but dont let facts slow you down turbo

yeah...lets use the money from drug sales. Surely a group that is now breaking the law will pay taxes. Hey, exactly how are you going to tax bj's, and children traded for drugs?

Oh thats right, we dont need to worry about that, because making these drugs illegal will put money in the addicts pocket so that they can feed their ever growing addiction....and legalization will stop them from doing crazy stuff like trading sex or their children for addictions they can't pay for.

excellent idea!

You're right Mike.
But the real danger is alcohol being legal.
Unless you want some drunk to drive their car through a crowded bus stop killing 6 people.
Besides if all other drugs are illegal why should alcohol be any different.
It's as dangerous or more dangerous then many of the illegal drugs, it's addictive and causes people to do really stupid things.
Or is it all right for a man to get drunk and beat up his wife or rape his daughter?

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ThomM 14 years ago

Now I know alcohol should be illegal.
A man in Hoosic NY just went to court for stabbing a horse to death, he said he was drunk at the time.
Nobody can drink alcohol and be responsible, therefore it should be made illegal and everyone who drinks should go to prison.
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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

You're right Mike.
But the real danger is alcohol being legal.
Unless you want some drunk to drive their car through a crowded bus stop killing 6 people.
Besides if all other drugs are illegal why should alcohol be any different.
It's as dangerous or more dangerous then many of the illegal drugs, it's addictive and causes people to do really stupid things.
Or is it all right for a man to get drunk and beat up his wife or rape his daughter?

Well, this is right about where I slide out of this argument, its getting silly now. When you start seeing women AND men selling their bodies for a sam adams then you can compare alcohol and the drugs and its effect on humans and how we should deal with it.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Well, this is right about where I slide out of this argument, its getting silly now. When you start seeing women AND men selling their bodies for a sam adams then you can compare alcohol and the drugs and its effect on humans and how we should deal with it.

So it's silly when someone uses your arguments against you?
I've had both women and men offer me sex in exchange for money so they could buy booze, so I guess there is a comparison to be made.
Used to happen in Tampa all the time when all those bars where on West Nebraska Ave.
These thread really started getting silly when you first posted in it. Hence I've just turned your arguments against you. Whatever you say about drug users can be said about alcohol users, after all they aren't any different.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

So it's silly when someone uses your arguments against you?
I've had both women and men offer me sex in exchange for money so they could buy booze, so I guess there is a comparison to be made.
Used to happen in Tampa all the time when all those bars where on West Nebraska Ave.
These thread really started getting silly when you first posted in it. Hence I've just turned your arguments against you. Whatever you say about drug users can be said about alcohol users, after all they aren't any different.

Yeah, i know. Tonight there will likely be millions....well thousands...or maybe 100s....well at least 20 mangy hookers in tampa that will take time out from their normal schedule of blowing guys for rent money, cab fare, cheetos and cigarettes to blow some guys for beer money. No doubt this massive shift in the otherwise church going grandmother type demeanor of said females is due to their alcohol addiction

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Yeah, i know. Tonight there will likely be millions....well thousands...or maybe 100s....well at least 20 mangy hookers in tampa that will take time out from their normal schedule of blowing guys for rent money, cab fare, cheetos and cigarettes to blow some guys for beer money. No doubt this massive shift in the otherwise church going grandmother type demeanor of said females is due to their alcohol addiction and not just a matter of bartering with the only thing she has in ample supply.

So you admit you can get a bj from someone needing cigs. but not beer?
You need to get over to Ybor City where the hookers aren't church going grandmothers, and you're right no known hooker drinks alcohol, that would be disgusting.
If you think there are only 20 hookers in Tampa, then I now know you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Gee, your ignorance concerning addiction is showing.

OK, I don't understand why someone, that hasn't had to have drugs for 10 years, suddenly has to!

Originally Posted by Kurt

Don't read the news much? The street crime from drugs is all along the US/Mexico border and is bleeding into the US border towns. Just because you don't live in a border town doesn't change my opinion.

A number of experts have said this is the biggest threat to our national security, as the cartels are trading drugs for guns, then selling the guns to whoever wants them.

MORE arguments for TIGHTENING the borders and enforcing LAWS! Apparently it is now ILLEGAL for a US citizen to go to mexico or canada without a passport, yet mexicans are allowed to come over here with NOTHING!!!!! They EVEN have BANKS ******US BANKS****** loaning them money with NO identification. And WHO gets to bail out the banks? Look in those papers!

Plus, we're sending our MONEY to other countries. In addition to hurting our economy, in the case of heroine, this money is then used to for people to harm the US. This is a point you over-looked.

As I said...

Also, legalizing drugs doesn't mean that drug users get a "get out of jail free" card. Not sure why you feel those that drive while intoicated would all of a sudden become legal. drivers. My feeling is, if you want to do drugs, fine, but only in your own home.

As a matter of fact, if drugs were legal, I would support a law that doubles the penalty for commiting crimes while on drugs...And I've have the room in jails and the money to do it. You want me to pay more taxes instead of taking the money from the gangs and the cartels. Great.

Nice idea, but it has not been very good with ALCOHOL!

So, you're now a rehab expert, too? There's a reason many treatment programs will say something like "I'm an alcoholic, been sober for 10 years".

And there's a HUGE difference between "drying out" and getting treatment. Cops and lock-keys don't know the chemistry, it isn't their job.

So you are saying there is NO treatment!?!?!? Like you said, alcoholics ALWAYS say they are alcoholics. They went too far ONCE, they will likely do it AGAIN! The CURE!?!?!? REALIZE the problem and, when THERE IS NO NEED, AVOID IT!

Steve

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ThomM

14 years ago

I'm sorry but 'beer and cigs' aren't any more of an addiction than weed.
If you believe alcohol and nicotine aren't addictive, there's no hope for you.
Anyone who says they are addicted to any one of those three, isnt realy addicted, they just have a weak will/mind.

And yes, when you use an illegal drug, you are considered a criminal. Why? because you broke the law..thats why. And that doesnt give you carte blanche to keep on committing crimes.
You missed my point. If you use an illegal drug, you know if you get caught you will be arrested. Therefore if you know you are already doing something illegal and don't have a problem with that, then doing something else illegal to support your already illegal habit isn't a big deal to you.
Where if your habit isn't illegal, you are less inclined (or motivated) to commit an illegal act to support it.
And no, people have not had crack, crank, meth since the beginning of time and those drugs are in no way the same thing as weed or whatever. Those kind of drugs are made for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to get you deeply addicted. There was never a time in this or any other country when the naieve population said 'sprinkle meth on your cornflakes to add some pep in your step' so nobody can say 'well i didnt know..the advertising sucked me in...i was used to seeing all the generations before me using it and accepting its use as the norm.
I never said they where doing crack or meth since the being.
I said drugs, that would include cannabis, opium, peyote, mescaline, alcohol, etc.
It purpose from the instant it was created was to addict people.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

If you believe alcohol and nicotine aren't addictive, there's no hope for you.

I didnt say they arent addictive, i said they arent addictive as crack/coke/meth

You missed my point. If you use an illegal drug, you know if you get caught you will be arrested.

and right there is MY point. if you KNOW you will get caught when you are arrested, then you know before you take that snort/run that bump or fill that needle that you are breaking the law. End of the story. If you get caught then there is only one person to blame, and its not the cop.

I never said they where doing crack or meth since the being.
I said drugs, that would include cannabis, opium, peyote, mescaline, alcohol, etc.
It purpose from the instant it was created was to addict people.

Yeah, but in the realm of conversation that we are talking about current laws, it stands to reason we're talking about current drug use. While people do use those drugs, when is the last time you heard of someone getting pulled over and charged with DUI peyote? How many people have you heard of that are out committing crimes to fund their mescaline habit?

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I didnt say they arent addictive, i said they arent addictive as crack/coke/meth

[/B]and right there is MY point. if you KNOW you will get caught when you are arrested, then you know before you take that snort/run that bump or fill that needle that you are breaking the law. End of the story. If you get caught then there is only one person to blame, and its not the cop.

You took just the opposite viewpoint when the topic was Michael Vick and dog fighting, with the "law" having little impact on your opinion.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

You took just the opposite viewpoint when the topic was Michael Vick and dog fighting, with the "law" having little impact on your opinion.

No i didnt. With michael vick i said that there is a point that destroying a man over a dog that nobody apparently likes seems kind of stupid.

That would be like destroying a man's career, home, family, life because he burned down a neighborhood crack house.

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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

No i didnt. With michael vick i said that there is a point that destroying a man over a dog that nobody apparently likes seems kind of stupid.

That would be like destroying a man's career, home, family, life because he burned down a neighborhood crack house.

Ummmm....Yes you did. You sure as hell didn't argue "but dog fighting is against the law". Not one time did you bring that up.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

No i didnt. With michael vick i said that there is a point that destroying a man over a dog that nobody apparently likes seems kind of stupid.

That would be like destroying a man's career, home, family, life because he burned down a neighborhood crack house.

Frankly, the reason WHY so few like them is because people bredd them to do such things as vick had them do. In a way, he is WORSE than those dogs. HE has more options, etc...

What was he doing with that anyway? WHY!?!?!?

Steve

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Ken Strong

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I didnt say they arent addictive, i said they arent addictive as crack/coke/meth

Here's one addictiveness rating list I found online -- there are many different lists, but all the ones I saw put nicotine at the top, although meth and crack are very close behind. Heroin is almost even with alcohol, and regular cocaine is way down next to caffeine.

Nicotine 100
Ice, Glass (Methamphetamine smoked) 99
Crack 98
Crystal Meth (Methamphetamine injected) 93
Valium (Diazepam) 85
Quaalude (Methaqualone) 83
Seconal (Secobarbital) 82
Alcohol 81
Heroin 80
Crank (Amphetamine taken nasally) 78
Cocaine 72
Caffeine 68
PCP (Phencyclidine) 57
Marijuana 21
Ecstasy (MDMA) 20
Psilocybin Mushrooms 18
LSD 18
Mescaline 18

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Here's one addictiveness rating list I found online -- there are many different lists, but all the ones I saw put nicotine at the top, although meth and crack are very close behind. Heroin is almost even with alcohol, and regular cocaine is way down next to caffeine.

Nicotine 100
Ice, Glass (Methamphetamine smoked) 99
Crack 98
Crystal Meth (Methamphetamine injected) 93
Valium (Diazepam) 85
Quaalude (Methaqualone) 83
Seconal (Secobarbital) 82
Alcohol 81
Heroin 80
Crank (Amphetamine taken nasally) 78
Cocaine 72
Caffeine 68
PCP (Phencyclidine) 57
Marijuana 21
Ecstasy (MDMA) 20
Psilocybin Mushrooms 18
LSD 18
Mescaline 18

cigs are more addictive because of the perception that they really arent that dangerous.

People dont care about something they cant see. They can see a crackhead losing teeth, they can see a meth head od and the effects it has on their physical being.

You have NEVER heard anyone tell the story of their great granny that smoked meth until she was 90 years old every single day or the grandpa that snorted coke until he died of natural causes when he was 100. But you hear that crap all the time about tobacco, and its stories like that that get people thinking 'wow, it must not really be that bad'.

You want to see the difference? Find someone that has quit smoking, ask them how they did it. Then go see if you can find someone that has quit crack/meth/coke with gum, or a sucker, or 'cold turkey'. Anyone that has quit smoking tobacco (myself being one of them) will tell you straight up that it doesnt matter what you chew or suck on or how you quit, if your mind is not in the proper place to quit, meaning you aren't ready mentally, then that other crap wont work.

Try that with a crackhead/meth head or coke addict..see how well that works out for you.

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Scot Standke

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Nicotine 100
Ice, Glass (Methamphetamine smoked) 99
Crack 98
Crystal Meth (Methamphetamine injected) 93
Valium (Diazepam) 85
Quaalude (Methaqualone) 83
Seconal (Secobarbital) 82
Alcohol 81
Heroin 80
Crank (Amphetamine taken nasally) 78
Cocaine 72
Caffeine 68
PCP (Phencyclidine) 57
Marijuana 21
Ecstasy (MDMA) 20
Psilocybin Mushrooms 18
LSD 18
Mescaline 18

wow man, quite the dropoff from PCP down to Marijuana, makes you want...

hmm, what was I talking about?

pass the Doritos dude!

what the hell is Mescaline, concentrated Tequilla?

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

"Disposed of"? What does that mean? Killed? Sent to prison for life? How about obese people? They have a problem with eating and could be considered "flawed' by you also. Should we dispose of them too. Why don't we just deal with this as a medical problem instead of a criminal one?

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

But i'm sorry, as far as i'm concerned, crackheads, cokeheads, heroin addicts...etc are flawed pieces of work that should be disposed of. Something tells me that might stem the flow

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

"Disposed of"? What does that mean? Killed? Sent to prison for life? How about obese people? They have a problem with eating and could be considered "flawed' by you also. Should we dispose of them too. Why don't we just deal with this as a medical problem instead of a criminal one?

Because its not a medical problem. Its a psychological problem. Most junkies have addictive personalities and if they arent addicted to coke, it will be heroin, if not heroin it will be meth, if not meth it will be pain pills..etc..etc..etc.

This is why the thought that 'marijuana is a gateway drug' is so retarded. Marijuana isnt' what lead joe crackhead to the pipe or frank cokeaddict to the needle. It just happened to be what was in their hand right before they took that first drag on the glass d**k or popped that first vein. Everything for that kind of a person is a 'gateway'.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

That's the same thing.

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Because its not a medical problem. Its a psychological problem.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

That's the same thing.

no its not. if it were, you would be able to actually treat them and they would never be an addict again.

But there is no such treatment. Once you are an addict, you are an addict..there will always be that yearning.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

I know people who were addicted and have no problem now. Cigarettes is one example. They got off them after being addicted and now are not addicts. They don't have that "yearning". Addiction can be cured.

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

no its not. if it were, you would be able to actually treat them and they would never be an addict again.

But there is no such treatment. Once you are an addict, you are an addict..there will always be that yearning.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

I know people who were addicted and have no problem now. Cigarettes is one example. They got off them after being addicted and now are not addicts. They don't have that "yearning". Addiction can be cured.

Then you know the only people on the planet that dont have a tinge when it comes to cigarettes they used to smoke because I havent met a single person that quit smoking that doesnt say that every great now and then they still want a smoke.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

"Disposed of"? What does that mean? Killed? Sent to prison for life? How about obese people? They have a problem with eating and could be considered "flawed' by you also. Should we dispose of them too. Why don't we just deal with this as a medical problem instead of a criminal one?

AWWW, you missed the picture of him with the cat? HE is fat! In any event, many fat people are more productive and less of a burden than ADDICTS!

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TimPhelan 14 years ago

Who's fat? Michael? Or the cat?

Many over weight people ARE addicts.

Originally Posted by seasoned

AWWW, you missed the picture of him with the cat? HE is fat! In any event, many fat people are more productive and less of a burden than ADDICTS!
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- Michael Motley 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TimPhelan
  
  Who's fat? Michael? Or the cat?
  
  Many over weight people ARE addicts.
  
  Steve apparently thinks a random picture from the internet is actually me.
  
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  1 reply
  
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  seasoned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Michael Motley
  
  Steve apparently thinks a random picture from the internet is actually me.
  
  Well, I didn't even care to try to check the URL. You looked all over for that picture for little ole me!?!?!? I didn't know you cared!
  
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Michael Motley

14 years ago

dont act like you dont have green jello in your undies as you read this.

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KimW

14 years ago

When every other commercial on tv is telling you that drugs are ok and that every fart and belch is a disease that needs to be treated and that each individual should go tell their dr what they want prescribed,not what the dr feels should be prescribed, then our country has a major drug issue.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KimW

When every other commercial on tv is telling you that drugs are ok and that every fart and belch is a disease that needs to be treated and that each individual should go tell their dr what they want prescribed,not what the dr feels should be prescribed, then our country has a major drug issue.

Aint that the truth. And whats with the cryytic commercials. They dont actually tell you what the pill is for, only the side affects and a nice flowery montage of images.

It was like 4 months of seeing cialis commercials before i figured out what it was. I had no idea what the pill did, but apparently it made you take baths out in public

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Scot Standke

14 years ago

It's just a matter of time before we start seeing some major crimes from people trying to score their next $9 packs of cigarettes, (if it isn't happening already).

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ProductCreator

Cigarettes are not very price elastic. Like all other taxes, government can squeeze people faster than inflation would.

But if you made cigarettes illegal tomorrow, people would rob houses to get their fix. No doubt about it.

If you made heroin legal, you would overnight cut burglaries by 90%.

That's one of the points I tried to make earlier.
It's not the drugs that cause crime, it's the illegal part that does.

Look back in history to alcohol prohibition.
Most of the nation became criminals because they still drank at illegal speak easy's or started their own stills like my father did. Violent crimes rose as did gangs. The war on alcohol failed just like the war on drugs is failing and for the same reasons.

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HeySal

14 years ago

KIM -- you make such a good point - drugs, just because they are legal should not be advertised on TV - our health is not an issue of industrial consumerism.

It is just SO hypocritical that people are allowed to be addicted to VERY DANGEROUS drugs by those who make commissions for handing them out and because some powerful industry with a lot of money to toss at the right people want the extra bucks they get from addictions. Yet let a person choose a drug of their own choice and they are slammed into profit making jails at a very hefty cost to society in general.

It's become the case now that if you want to be addicted to something - you have to get it from the industry which has the monopoly on drugs and makes the big bucks from your addiction.

If drugs are such a matter for government to decide - and the stats show that illegal drug use has soared since they became illegal -- and stats further show that about 25 to 1 of people dying due to drug intake are actually dying from drugs given to them, and even encouraged to be taken, by legal means.........all I see is one huge money making machine that is totaling out the lives of millions without one whit of concern about what they are doing. Call it population control and a big money scam.......because I can't see one bit of logic in the whole fricken corrupt little system. All I see is lives destroyed and sacrificed for a lot of money to a very few.

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bobmcalister

14 years ago

well...having had a family member lost due to drugs , I cannot say anything good about using them I have always been to afraid of them...a couple of glasses of wine is fine with me.
but
drugs should be legalized...would make some tax money , allow some kind of controls, and even education to avoid use.

drugs that are illegal are illegal because it makes the local politicals money . I have been in neighborhoods with drug dealers on one corner and the cops on the other...and nothing happened.

and, Vicksburg Miss has the first Coca Cola factory still...as a museum. The original formulae did in fact contain cocaine.....'picks you up'.

now ...it is full of sugar....that picks you up too !

what a waste of youth ...to die so young. Spending trillions overseas to kill folks, maybe spending trillions here would be a better option. To all Americans, we canclean out the House of Rep this November it you guys will vote.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

mescaline is a natural occuring psychadelic that comes from a couple kinds of cactus. Its also sometimes called peyote because one of the places it is found is the peyote cactus.

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Scot Standke

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

mescaline is a natural occuring psychadelic that comes from a couple kinds of cactus. Its also sometimes called peyote because one of the places it is found is the peyote cactus.

Gotcha, lived in Phoenix for a while, have heard of that lol

Scot

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bozz723

14 years ago

Among the trillions of other dollars that are being put to great use. This means nothing to me compared to the massive theft of the other tax dollars in America.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Really? So after drugs are legal, the hardcore drug addicts wont continue to do stupid sh*t?

I get the feeling that you and I have probably had similar experiences with drug use and users.

And im betting that you have been around, been involved or atleast seen completely stupid crap go on that was directly caused by drug use..because I know I have.

So you're saying drugs being illegal prevent stupid people from doing stupid things? Really?
If that was the case then you wouldn't of seen any of the stupid crap you allude to.
Stupid people do stupid things, doesn't matter if drugs are involved or not.
If you don't believe me watch America's funnest home videos or any of the World's Dumbest on True TV.
Like Ron White said "you can't fix stupid".

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

So you're saying drugs being illegal prevent stupid people from doing stupid things? Really?
If that was the case then you wouldn't of seen any of the stupid crap you allude to.
Stupid people do stupid things, doesn't matter if drugs are involved or not.
If you don't believe me watch America's funnest home videos or any of the World's Dumbest on True TV.
Like Ron White said "you can't fix stupid".

Oh..i see, so when heroin addicts set their houses on fire because they nod with a cigarette in their hand and it sets the carpet on fire..its because they're stupid..not high? Makes perfect sense.

3 months ago when the crackhead in Moon Lake ran from police after they responded to a call about him breaking in a house, and he was so f**ked up that he dove into a lake and a gator ripped his arm off, it wasnt because of the crack he admitted to smoking (and what was found in his pocket) it was because he was too stupid and would have dove into a lake with gators anyway?

Yeah.

There's no argument for this on the 'pro drug' side of the house. Drugs make people do stupid sh*t..this isnt a new occurance. And while people do dumb stuff on their own, drugs tend to magnify it and also place others in danger as well.

Like i said, its not all drugs, but nobody in their right mind can begin to argue for the 'positive effects' of drugs like crack, meth, coke, heroin..etc.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Oh..i see, so when heroin addicts set their houses on fire because they nod with a cigarette in their hand and it sets the carpet on fire..its because they're stupid..not high? Makes perfect sense.

3 months ago when the crackhead in Moon Lake ran from police after they responded to a call about him breaking in a house, and he was so f**ked up that he dove into a lake and a gator ripped his arm off, it wasnt because of the crack he admitted to smoking (and what was found in his pocket) it was because he was too stupid and would have dove into a lake with gators anyway?

Yeah.

There's no argument for this on the 'pro drug' side of the house. Drugs make people do stupid sh*t..this isnt a new occurance. And while people do dumb stuff on their own, drugs tend to magnify it and also place others in danger as well.

Like i said, its not all drugs, but nobody in their right mind can begin to argue for the 'positive effects' of drugs like crack, meth, coke, heroin..etc.

Mike if they where that smart they wouldn't be a heroin or crack addict to begin with:rolleyes:
I never said there where positive effects of drugs like crack, meth, coke, heroin..etc.
But the negative effects are there from them being illegal.
Lets take a drug I had personal experience with in the 70's, crystal meth.
For almost 2 years I was a serious meth addict. I shot 1/8 ounce of pure canadian rock crystal a day. That drug in my opinion is the most disgusting, vile, substance you can put in your body.
Now back then a 1/4 ounce cost me $140. I got rid of 1/8 to pay for it and kept an 1/8 for myself.
Now if it was legal, say you could get it from a drug store for $60 a 1/4.
Now there is no need for that toxic meth lab next door.
Sure you still have meth addicts and they are lower then heroin addicts or crack heads in what they will stoop to to get a fix.
But you lowered what they need money wise.
Also there are now controls in place on the product and it's use, much like alcohol.
The main issue I believe with drugs being illegal are not the users, but the suppliers.
Any one who sells drugs on any level are real happy they are illegal.
If legalized there will be a butt load of dealers, gangs, smugglers, and producers who will need to find a job.

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bobmcalister

14 years ago

wel....lets see

we have spent 3 trillion on our war on drugs...how is that going?
we have a zillion unwed , single MOMS on welfare , food stamps, housing etc...how is that working?
matter of fact, I do not know of ANY government enterprise or war effort that is working.
we , as a people in the US, are dumb asses. watching big corporations raid the Treasury of all our children, re-electing OUR congress men/women, but wanting everyone else to throw out their guys.

as far as OUTlawing any thing, that just doesnt work. Ask anyone In the land of Oz how that gun confiscation program is working....now, only the crooks have guns.

I think that in the US, the states should have the rights to pass their own laws in every regard. That way , the local people can decide for their locality. kinda like Las Vegas or the Native Americans do .

Most American think the War of the States, ie Civil War, was fought over slavery issues. It was not. It was fought over states rights.

Most Americans believe that Blacks are a BIG minority in america, when they are not. I mention these as items that receive a lot of attention publicly, while the true issues of humanity are ignored.

got off track , sorry

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HeySal

14 years ago

People should be considered criminals for breaking laws?.....Um.....uh.........why aren't people considered criminals for making unconstitutional (read: illegal) laws then? Seems to me that there are a good many politicians that should be leading the pack in the "shuffle criminals off to jail" scene.

"War on" policy is nothing more than a semantic trick to get around constitutional restraints -- and if citizens had their excrement coagulated they would start a huge "war on" "war on" policies.

Let's get our priorities straight here.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

People should be considered criminals for breaking laws?.....Um.....uh.........why aren't people considered criminals for making unconstitutional (read: illegal) laws then? Seems to me that there are a good many politicians that should be leading the pack in the "shuffle criminals off to jail" scene.

"War on" policy is nothing more than a semantic trick to get around constitutional restraints -- and if citizens had their excrement coagulated they would start a huge "war on" "war on" policies.

Let's get our priorities straight here.

Just because you personally dont like a law that was made doesnt make it unconstitutional. If you dont like it, you have just as much power to stop it as they did to start it, they just wanted it more.

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HeySal

14 years ago

Just because you personally dont like a law that was made doesnt make it unconstitutional. If you dont like it, you have just as much power to stop it as they did to start it, they just wanted it more.

No but violating the right to autonomy does.

That's a perfect example of a guy we should let natural selection do its work on before it breeds more of its kind. "Saving" people from life is just another way of saying keep them in cages. Thanks - I'll take my chances with my own mortality, just as nature intended. If I'm too stupid to breath - my problem not society's. Everyone can't be spoon fed just because some idiot can't drink their milk without spilling it.

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Michael Motley

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

No but violating the right to autonomy does.

That's a perfect example of a guy we should let natural selection do its work on before it breeds more of its kind. "Saving" people from life is just another way of saying keep them in cages. Thanks - I'll take my chances with my own mortality, just as nature intended. If I'm too stupid to breath - my problem not society's. Everyone can't be spoon fed just because some idiot can't drink their milk without spilling it.

And I totally agree, but unfortunately there are too many people that think we should save people from themselves.

I'm not interested in saving people from themselves. I dont care if all the retards around me started licking light sockets tomorrow, thats just less traffic on the road for me to deal with. But when their stupidity endangers me...thats when i have an issue.

Like i said, I personally dont care what people put in their bodies. If you want to inject clorox into your veins, i'll help tie you off. But if doing that makes you so stupid that you want to run naked through the streets with a shotgun popping off rounds, or rob/kill me or my family to feed your clorox addiction, THATS when we need laws about shooting up clorox. Not to save YOU..but to save ME from YOU.

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Since the powers that be have tried tons and tons of cure and not cured it at all, doesn't it make more sense to try the ounce of prevention instead.

If drugs (pot at least) were legal it could be taxed. The taxes could be used for works of good.

The War on Drugs, like The War On Terror and The War On Poverty have proven to be complete fiascos, which have only exacerbated the problem(s) in each case.

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ThomM 14 years ago

The War on Drugs, like The War On Terror and The War On Poverty have proven to be complete fiascos, which have only exacerbated the problem(s) in each case.

Not sure who said it, but someone way smarter then me once said "once you declare war on something all you do is produce more war".
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Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
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As you are I was, as I am you will be
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bobmcalister

14 years ago

http://www.cdhs.state.co.us/adad/PDF...02405Final.pdf
page 24 ...cost for rehabbing alcohol in colorado ..
just the tip
federal gran funded 23 million of it .

you guys fight it out. the war on drugs is like the war in irag...we all ready won , just ask the government guys.

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