A rant .. schools, Haiti, etc. etc.

[digidoodles]

My kidlets brought a paper home from school soliciting donations for Haiti. They are sending things to create "Child Friendly Spaces". They listed things like glue, paper, scissors... UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... HELLO??

Wouldn't a more appropriate "Child Friendly Space" be a place, ohhh I don't know... a place with some water that doesn't have poop in it?

Call me old fashioned, I guess.

What on earth were they thinking?

Warmly,

Brandi

[KimW]

Just an FYI, your sig file isnt working.

[digidoodles]

Ha! Thanks. I'll have to troubleshoot that later.

[Kenster]

DELETED previous comment because it came out much worse than what I thought when I was writing.

Kindly ignore

I fully agree if they want to help they should be asking for something far more than that ... A place where children can be safe, taken care of, looked after, and be "healthy"

Glue and scissors is not the first thing that comes to my mind when talking safety ..

James

[HeySal]

Probably want the stuff to rebuild all those very unstable buildings that collapse in quakes out there.....God knows, if we don't do it, Haiti Officials sure aren't going to. But I bet that palace is repaired pretty fast.

[digidoodles]

I bet so too, Sal.

After all those billions of dollars the government has taken FROM the US and kept for themselves... while their people live in abject poverty.

Makes me want to vomit.

[seasoned]

Frankly, School is ********NOT******** the place for propaganda! They are supposed to be paid to TEACH! And they CLAIM they don't have enough money for supplies, etc... but they can do THIS? And you KNOW they probably talked to the kids about this, etc....

Kenster,

There ARE people in the US that are worse off than some people in haiti. And a lot of these problems are ENDEMIC to haiti. Simply "fixing" the problem now isn't going to solve the problem. Someone should fix the CAUSE before the symptoms are taken care of. Frankly it doesn't make sense to repair houses, or even plant trees, in a forest that is STILL BURNING! PUT THE FIRE OUT FIRST!

Steve

[digidoodles]

Originally Posted by seasoned

Frankly, School is ********NOT******** the place for propaganda! They are supposed to be paid to TEACH! And they CLAIM they don't have enough money for supplies, etc... but they can do THIS? And you KNOW they probably talked to the kids about this, etc....

Kenster,

There ARE people in the US that are worse off than some people in haiti. And a lot of these problems are ENDEMIC to haiti. Simply "fixing" the problem now isn't going to solve the problem. Someone should fix the CAUSE before the symptoms are taken care of. Frankly it doesn't make sense to repair houses, or even plant trees, in a forest that is STILL BURNING! PUT THE FIRE OUT FIRST!

Steve

Is there a thanks x 10 button?

Thanks!

Warmly,

Brandi

[moodykitty]

Originally Posted by seasoned

Frankly, School is ********NOT******** the place for propaganda! They are supposed to be paid to TEACH! And they CLAIM they don't have enough money for supplies, etc... but they can do THIS? And you KNOW they probably talked to the kids about this, etc....

Kenster,

There ARE people in the US that are worse off than some people in haiti. And a lot of these problems are ENDEMIC to haiti. Simply "fixing" the problem now isn't going to solve the problem. Someone should fix the CAUSE before the symptoms are taken care of. Frankly it doesn't make sense to repair houses, or even plant trees, in a forest that is STILL BURNING! PUT THE FIRE OUT FIRST!

Steve

TOTALLY agree.

[TimPhelan]

Totally don't agree.

What is the "propaganda" here? Again, you make this political. Teaching kids to think about the world and helping others is a *************GOOD***********thing.

The OP was just making the point that glue and paper isn't what is needed now.

Plus, there aren't many Americans better off than the 5000 Americans missing in Haiti. Or the 200,000 Haitians who have died. Frankly, what BS.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Frankly, School is ********NOT******** the place for propaganda! They are supposed to be paid to TEACH! And they CLAIM they don't have enough money for supplies, etc... but they can do THIS? And you KNOW they probably talked to the kids about this, etc....

Kenster,

There ARE people in the US that are worse off than some people in haiti. And a lot of these problems are ENDEMIC to haiti. Simply "fixing" the problem now isn't going to solve the problem. Someone should fix the CAUSE before the symptoms are taken care of. Frankly it doesn't make sense to repair houses, or even plant trees, in a forest that is STILL BURNING! PUT THE FIRE OUT FIRST!

Steve

[Kurt]

Originally Posted by seasoned

Frankly, School is ********NOT******** the place for propaganda! They are supposed to be paid to TEACH! And they CLAIM they don't have enough money for supplies, etc... but they can do THIS? And you KNOW they probably talked to the kids about this, etc....

Kenster,

There ARE people in the US that are worse off than some people in haiti. And a lot of these problems are ENDEMIC to haiti. Simply "fixing" the problem now isn't going to solve the problem. Someone should fix the CAUSE before the symptoms are taken care of. Frankly it doesn't make sense to repair houses, or even plant trees, in a forest that is STILL BURNING! PUT THE FIRE OUT FIRST!

Steve

OK...I'll listen. Let's hear ***YOUR*** plan to end earthquakes? In case you missed it, it was an earthquake that ***CAUSED*** this destruction.

And as Tim said, they are teaching kids to care about others....Looks like you missed that class.

[seasoned]

People in the US have died because of earthquakes ALSO, but fewer have died and more of the city could continue because the US has building codes that at least provide for natural disasters that are BOUND to happen!

Some homes in the US have sustained damage, and some people have died, simply because of stupid mistakes like no rebar being used to hold the frame down, or the roof not even being properly attached to the home.

And at least one reporter showed a building that was seemingly undamaged right next to a road that was HEAVILY damaged. and HE said the difference was BUILDING standards.

THAT is what building codes are for.

And Simply paying money to survivors when you DON'T at least mitigate the problems and most of the money will be diverted ANYWAY, is not really caring that much anyway.

And people laugh at people in mallibu canyon that constantly have floods and fires.

Steve

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Totally don't agree.

What is the "propaganda" here? Again, you make this political. Teaching kids to think about the world and helping others is a *************GOOD***********thing.

The OP was just making the point that glue and paper isn't what is needed now.

Plus, there aren't many Americans better off than the 5000 Americans missing in Haiti. Or the 200,000 Haitians who have died. Frankly, what BS.

I have to agree with Tim here. This isnt propoganda. This is teaching kids about the world and how they are connected to it, how they can help..etc. There's nothing wrong with that.

However I do think that there are probably bigger needs than crayons and coloring books for the children of haiti right now.

[HeySal]

I think the point of a few comments is very valid. Haiti is prone to quakes and hurricanes - we KNOW this and down the line there will be more of them. That quake has been expected for some time....and is one of the reasons for the controversy in this emergency.

US has given billions for them to improve their buildings just so they could avoid this kind of tragedy - and they have not used the money well. They are having struggles with the gov down there and I firmly believe when we send money, we need to send officials who will make sure it goes where it is intended to go instead of the pockets of the rich and powerful. We have done so in this disaster - less than one penny of each dollar is now going to the Haiti gov -- it's going to the PEOPLE. Now we have it right. While a few countries are dissing us for going in and "taking over", it is only right that if we are supporting a clean up and human lives, we should be there to make sure they are getting what they need, especially in light that those previous billions were misused so badly.

Crayons, paper, yes, send them. The children need some way to use their brains, some way to express what they feel and think - something to give them just a little relief from the suffering and add a spark of happiness and hope into their situation. It is a small gesture, but it could make a very big difference to some little mind who might just go on to change things there in the future.

Emergencies are very bad times to shuffle around ideas about what wasn't done that should have been - it's a time for saving, later, when when the emergency is over we can wonder why our dollars are not going to our own and why their dollars aren't getting where they need to be.

We need to be very understanding of that, because here in America we have a high rise city of several million sitting on a major subduction zone that is due to erupt = and it's one that hits some of the highest magnitudes known when it does.......and that city of millions, despite strict building codes .............. is sitting on sediment.

Yes we have people who are starving to death here in the US. We have cities now build of tents. SO why is nobody acting on that other than to point out the fact when someone else has a major calamity and needs help? Lets see if after the emergency of Haiti has passed if anyone who is pointing to the growing poverty in America is willing to get in line to fight it before a similar event is what it takes to turn eyes to poverty here and to questioning the source of the thick wallets of the rich and powerful.

[FortressDewey]

I think the school's heart/thought was in the right place, but right now they need more than just scissors & glue.

Also, we are very very privileged in this country, be grateful. If you have never gone abroad, take a trip and see just how much we have.

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by FortressDewey

I think the school's heart/thought was in the right place, but right now they need more than just scissors & glue.

Also, we are very very privileged in this country, be grateful. If you have never gone abroad, take a trip and see just how much we have.

We arent a 'privledged' country. This country didnt get given anything, people worked for it, died for it and still do. Thats what seperates this country from other countries on the planet, we have put in the work to get to where we are as did all countries that arent a third world armpit did.

Are you 'privledged' compared to your neighbor because you worked your ass off in school to get into a good college, to get a good education, to get a good job so that you can provide for your family...but your neighbor didnt? No, you' arent privleged, you are a hard worker. maybe if other countries tried the same they wouldnt be begging for help from the u.s. and other places that have put in the work.

possibly if the people of haiti would get off that god forsaken patch of dirt, or do something crazy like pick up a book and learn to read, they could educate themselves and their countrymen on things like safe building practices for buildings.

50% of their population can't read. Is that the world's fault, or is that haiti's fault? If you can't read, you limit yourself drastically, if you do nothing to help yourself, why should anyone else lend a hand?

[ThomM]

Holy crap, I'm going to agree with Tim and Mike in the same thread
From the O.P. calling her rug rats kiddlet's I got to think they are in lower elementary school. If that is the case, then asking for scissors and paper just puts the disaster at a level they can understand.
Also the little kids in Haiti need something to occupy themselves with besides the distruction and devastation that all around them. Plenty of relief organizations and adults are supplying the vital needs like food, water, medical goods. Let the kids help the kids anyway they can.

[TimPhelan]

Good points Sal. Initially I agreed with Brandi about the crayons and paper not being the right thing to send now, but you are right in that it can be very therapeutic for the kids who have to be emotionally devastated to see all the death and destruction around them. And yes it's a good gesture.

One thing I think is wrong though, and I have seen others say, is that the US has spent billions on Haiti. From what I can tell, we have spent a lot less than that. Overall in the last 10 years we have spent less than $20 million combined in Haiti after floods and hurricanes. Here's some examples:

-- Hurricane Dennis hit in July 2005, killing 56. U.S. spent $50,000 in aid

-- Floods in December 2006 killed 7. U.S. spent $50,000 in aid

-- Floods in November 2007 killed 103. U.S. spent $650,000 in aid

-- Starvation in April 2008 affected 2.5 million people. U.S. spent $150,000 in aid

-- Four tropical storms or hurricanes hit in 2008 (Fay, Gustav, Hanna and Ike), killing 793 people. U.S. sent $8.46 million in aid.

Originally Posted by HeySal

I think the point of a few comments is very valid. Haiti is prone to quakes and hurricanes - we KNOW this and down the line there will be more of them. That quake has been expected for some time....and is one of the reasons for the controversy in this emergency.

US has given billions for them to improve their buildings just so they could avoid this kind of tragedy - and they have not used the money well. They are having struggles with the gov down there and I firmly believe when we send money, we need to send officials who will make sure it goes where it is intended to go instead of the pockets of the rich and powerful. We have done so in this disaster - less than one penny of each dollar is now going to the Haiti gov -- it's going to the PEOPLE. Now we have it right. While a few countries are dissing us for going in and "taking over", it is only right that if we are supporting a clean up and human lives, we should be there to make sure they are getting what they need, especially in light that those previous billions were misused so badly.

Crayons, paper, yes, send them. The children need some way to use their brains, some way to express what they feel and think - something to give them just a little relief from the suffering and add a spark of happiness and hope into their situation. It is a small gesture, but it could make a very big difference to some little mind who might just go on to change things there in the future.

Emergencies are very bad times to shuffle around ideas about what wasn't done that should have been - it's a time for saving, later, when when the emergency is over we can wonder why our dollars are not going to our own and why their dollars aren't getting where they need to be.

We need to be very understanding of that, because here in America we have a high rise city of several million sitting on a major subduction zone that is due to erupt = and it's one that hits some of the highest magnitudes known when it does.......and that city of millions, despite strict building codes .............. is sitting on sediment.

Yes we have people who are starving to death here in the US. We have cities now build of tents. SO why is nobody acting on that other than to point out the fact when someone else has a major calamity and needs help? Lets see if after the emergency of Haiti has passed if anyone who is pointing to the growing poverty in America is willing to get in line to fight it before a similar event is what it takes to turn eyes to poverty here and to questioning the source of the thick wallets of the rich and powerful.

[redicelander]

They should be soliciting donations of money. Then the professionals who actually know what's needed there can be the ones to use donated money to buy it. Red Cross, etc.

[HeySal]

That's just disaster aid, Tim. We have actually given somewhere around 3 bil in just general aid to that nation since 1992 - and very little of it has gotten to the people as you might have been able to tell from that link I gave you showing the magnificence of the palaces and the poverty of the population centers. That's why I said we need to send people WITH the aid to manage how it is spent. I don't like money taken out of my pocket just for the wealthy to play with -- anywhere on this globe. It's not my job to make sure someone else has a Rolls Royce when I have to replace my own beat up rig. We just have a situation where a very small percent have become so unbelievably greedy that human lives are lost just to furnish luxury......and that's not political or isolated......it's the rich everywhere on the globe taking the means of everyone else to barely survive to support their comfort.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

possibly if the people of haiti would get off that god forsaken patch of dirt, or do something crazy like pick up a book and learn to read, they could educate themselves and their countrymen on things like safe building practices for buildings.

50% of their population can't read. Is that the world's fault, or is that haiti's fault? If you can't read, you limit yourself drastically, if you do nothing to help yourself, why should anyone else lend a hand?

It may sound heartless, but that doesn't make it any less true. People can DIE, and problems can be created, if people can't read.

There is that person on the commercial advertising some reading program that spoke of how she once fainted by smelling what she thought was lemon juice(it had lemons on the bottle). It turned out to be AMMONIA! On "quincy M.E." a dangerous accident turned out to be due to someone not being able to read a warning sign.

Some would say that street signs are standardized, in places like the US. STOP, YIELD, NO * turn, are pretty obvious. Still, there are signs like "All turns should be made from the 2nd exit to the right", or "Warning, road ends in 500 feet".

And yeah, the US has no business teaching literacy in Haiti, Haiti speaks mostly creole.

As for the US being a privileged country, The US made a LOT of sacrifices, starting from DAY ONE! Maybe the people in the US start off with better chances than some countries, but it isn't like everyone is rich and wants for nothing. In the forbes top billionares list, 70% of the top ten are NOT Americans! The 3rd one is Mexican, 5th swedish, 6th,9th german, 7th and 8th indian, 10th spanish.

At its probable high point, less than 3% of americans had a "net worth" of at least $1 million(according to CNN Money). And "net worth" is nebulous. If you have a net worth of $1,000,000, it simply means you could conceivably liquidate all your assets and have that much cash. When all is said and done, you might NOT be a millionare! of course, CNN Money ALSO said that was fueled by the realestate boom, so some of those "millionaires" might even be BROKE now. One friend I have saw his networth drop by over $300K, in that period, JUST due to real estate!

And heysal is right. The US gives to GENERAL funds for countries LIKE, and including haiti(Even the US government probably doesn't know where it ends up Just one example: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/30/world/30fund.html ), gives to SPECIFIC countries, like and including haiti(It is generally not reported), and THEN sends specific help on some disasters(THIS, of course, hits the news).

It is kind of like how the federal government helps out the states. Louisiana got general STATE aid(generally not reported), got specific project/need aid(which may not even be fully reported), and DISASTER aid for things like katrina(which hit the news).

Steve

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by seasoned

And yeah, the US has no business teaching literacy in Haiti, Haiti speaks mostly creole.

That's B.S.. If we are expected to be the ones that take care of them, then we should be allowed to do whatever it takes to minimize the impact of things like national disasters. If the way that has to happen is education, and its up to us to do it (because nobody else will) then WE should be the ones that pick whichever language is easier for US to teach.

If you are expected to be the one who takes care of the pups your dog has, then you get to dictate whether you will do that by segregation, or by castration. The dog doesnt get to bitch about your decision unless it wants to learn to wear a condom.

As for the US being a privileged country, The US made a LOT of sacrifices, starting from DAY ONE! Maybe the people in the US start off with better chances than some countries, but it isn't like everyone is rich and wants for nothing. In the forbes top billionares list, 70% of the top ten are NOT Americans! The 3rd one is Mexican, 5th swedish, 6th,9th german, 7th and 8th indian, 10th spanish.

no, not everyone is a millionaire...but 'broke' in this country is still better off than many other places. But its that way because our population stood on its own two feet, educated themselves and their countryment, reinvested in their own country and its people.

Right now, You have thugs raping quake victims in haiti, and these will be the same mongrels that bemoan the 'strife in haiti' in a few months, when THEY are the reason for that very strife.

At its probable high point, less than 3% of americans had a "net worth" of at least $1 million(according to CNN Money). And "net worth" is nebulous. If you have a net worth of $1,000,000, it simply means you could conceivably liquidate all your assets and have that much cash. When all is said and done, you might NOT be a millionare! of course, CNN Money ALSO said that was fueled by the realestate boom, so some of those "millionaires" might even be BROKE now. One friend I have saw his networth drop by over $300K, in that period, JUST due to real estate!

And heysal is right. The US gives to GENERAL funds for countries LIKE, and including haiti(Even the US government probably doesn't know where it ends up Just one example: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/30/world/30fund.html ), gives to SPECIFIC countries, like and including haiti(It is generally not reported), and THEN sends specific help on some disasters(THIS, of course, hits the news).

It is kind of like how the federal government helps out the states. Louisiana got general STATE aid(generally not reported), got specific project/need aid(which may not even be fully reported), and DISASTER aid for things like katrina(which hit the news).

Steve

[HeySal]

Well, I just changed my figure - it is 3 bil in general aid, but while looking that up the figure of the UN aid to Haiti is at 1 Trillion. A Tril bucks and they can't achieve literacy in the population - or safe housing standards - clean water - food? I'm not sure how much of the aid stated was sheer cash for disaster relief, development, etc.
They have received aid for general development, arms to fight these criminals that they claim no control over, food, medicine, you name it - that population is much like Etheopia, surviving ONLY because of aid given. Is the fault with the people or the gov and when does the world push responsibility or just cut them off? That population is growing faster than many parts of the world yet it is completely dependent. Is it morally ethical to allow a population that lives only because of aid from others to continue to increase to the point that it surpasses the very carrying capacity of the land they are situated upon? The damage that is going to be done in the next year or two to their rain forest if the price of fuel goes up is well known by a global scientific team NASA set up to monitor hot spots will cause a worldwide chain reaction - and how do they fix this situation if the people and gov there will not strive to meet a survivable balance? 300 years ago that population controlled itself because there was no other way for them to survive - they had to live within the level of resources their land offered to them. Now support is given to any nation in which the population has surpassed its land's ability to support it.....and all we are seeing globally resulting is a continual upward push of population.

While Haiti is more disaster prone an area than others on the globe, it's still a fact that they need to learn to deal with the situation that they live in on a daily basis. Aid during natural crisis is understandable anywhere on the globe - and we should all be prepared to help anywhere on the globe in times of disaster.........but other than that it's probably high time to tell people that they need to start handling their populations in the means necessary for it to be self sufficient within its own area or we are going to end up starving every country's poor to support those who refuse to become self sustaining. That has to start at the leadership level, and apparently many receiving aid are reluctant because they are pocketing a large sum of that for themselves and aren't all that willing to move to self sufficiency because it would result in a great dent in their own personal wallets.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

That's B.S.. If we are expected to be the ones that take care of them, then we should be allowed to do whatever it takes to minimize the impact of things like national disasters. If the way that has to happen is education, and its up to us to do it (because nobody else will) then WE should be the ones that pick whichever language is easier for US to teach.

If you are expected to be the one who takes care of the pups your dog has, then you get to dictate whether you will do that by segregation, or by castration. The dog doesnt get to bitch about your decision unless it wants to learn to wear a condom.



no, not everyone is a millionaire...but 'broke' in this country is still better off than many other places. But its that way because our population stood on its own two feet, educated themselves and their countryment, reinvested in their own country and its people.

Right now, You have thugs raping quake victims in haiti, and these will be the same mongrels that bemoan the 'strife in haiti' in a few months, when THEY are the reason for that very strife.

Well, I ALSO have no place teaching dogs how to socialize with other dogs.

BTW SOME people in haiti started doing a ****VERY**** stupid thing. They started trying to build homes ON TOP of the debris! The government said that is unacceptable and is NOW talking about BUILDING CODES!!!!!!! YEAH! MAYBE this can be the last time they are hit this bad. THAT change is better than billions of building aid. Hey, look at Japan. They had TONS of earthquakes, and now build pretty large buildings that seem to handle them fine. Even in CA with the northridge earthquake, things could have been FAR worse. Much of the damage I heard about was due to them NOT properly following building codes. I hope they did something with the inspectors. Still, imagine how it could have been if there were NO building codes.

BTW Turtles are getti9ng MORE BAD tumors. AGAIN, pointing to how something I said earlier is true. We have a LOT of polution to worry about. CO2 can't really do this sort of thing. And reptiles are a kind of sentinel species. They are akin to the proverbial canary in the mines. The level and type of problem points more to a liquid pollution, like construction plant runoff.

Steve

[digidoodles]

Originally Posted by HeySal

but other than that it's probably high time to tell people that they need to start handling their populations in the means necessary for it to be self sufficient within its own area or we are going to end up starving every country's poor to support those who refuse to become self sustaining. That has to start at the leadership level, and apparently many receiving aid are reluctant because they are pocketing a large sum of that for themselves and aren't all that willing to move to self sufficiency because it would result in a great dent in their own personal wallets.

oh... oh... oh.. up jump the devil!

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, I ALSO have no place teaching dogs how to socialize with other dogs.

If you are the one that is going to pay for pups being born when they mate, or for stiches when they fight...hell yes you have a place teaching your dog how to socialize. Who else is suppoed to do it..the dog?

BTW SOME people in haiti started doing a ****VERY**** stupid thing. They started trying to build homes ON TOP of the debris! The government said that is unacceptable and is NOW talking about BUILDING CODES!!!!!!! YEAH! MAYBE this can be the last time they are hit this bad. THAT change is better than billions of building aid. Hey, look at Japan. They had TONS of earthquakes, and now build pretty large buildings that seem to handle them fine. Even in CA with the northridge earthquake, things could have been FAR worse. Much of the damage I heard about was due to them NOT properly following building codes. I hope they did something with the inspectors. Still, imagine how it could have been if there were NO building codes.

BTW Turtles are getti9ng MORE BAD tumors. AGAIN, pointing to how something I said earlier is true. We have a LOT of polution to worry about. CO2 can't really do this sort of thing. And reptiles are a kind of sentinel species. They are akin to the proverbial canary in the mines. The level and type of problem points more to a liquid pollution, like construction plant runoff.

Steve

Then they can learn how to handle pollution and building codes.

If they dont want to, we can teach them..and if we are expected to teach them, we will do it any way we please. If they dont like it, they can train themselves. Oh thats right...thats why we are at this point now..

[butters]

Not on the main subject of the post but still about Haiti... I’m only young so lets not jump all over me on this, it is a genuine question and I don’t want it to be taken the wrong way. I’m saying that because I can see how this question can be taken the wrong way.

Why do the Haitians, actually most 3rd world countries think they have the right to aid? It sounds a bit cruel and all but from my experience in the Dominican Republic for the last 8 months, its full of corruption, lawlessness and every other bad thing under the sun. I heard that Hati is much more dangerous then the DR so why should we send aid to countries who will not distribute it fairly and most of it wont even go to the right places. Why is it that we think we can just throw money at this and everything just turns out alright, when really, the countries asking for aid (Not just Haiti, most 3rd world countries) are not willing to adapt and change there ways.

I need to see some light on this, maybe I am thinking a bit cynical, just don’t bite my head off :P.

[Michael Motley]

Because we give it so freely that it is expected.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

If you are the one that is going to pay for pups being born when they mate, or for stiches when they fight...hell yes you have a place teaching your dog how to socialize. Who else is suppoed to do it..the dog?

Not quite what I meant. 8-)

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Then they can learn how to handle pollution and building codes.

If they dont want to, we can teach them..and if we are expected to teach them, we will do it any way we please. If they dont like it, they can train themselves. Oh thats right...thats why we are at this point now..

My point EXACTLY!

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by butters

Not on the main subject of the post but still about Haiti... I’m only young so lets not jump all over me on this, it is a genuine question and I don’t want it to be taken the wrong way. I’m saying that because I can see how this question can be taken the wrong way.

Why do the Haitians, actually most 3rd world countries think they have the right to aid? It sounds a bit cruel and all but from my experience in the Dominican Republic for the last 8 months, its full of corruption, lawlessness and every other bad thing under the sun. I heard that Hati is much more dangerous then the DR so why should we send aid to countries who will not distribute it fairly and most of it wont even go to the right places. Why is it that we think we can just throw money at this and everything just turns out alright, when really, the countries asking for aid (Not just Haiti, most 3rd world countries) are not willing to adapt and change there ways.

I need to see some light on this, maybe I am thinking a bit cynical, just don’t bite my head off :P.

Michael is kind of right. There are really TWO reasons!

1. We have given it so freely.... Like Michael Motley has said.
2. They hear values thrown around here and $1000 to US is often CHICKENFEED! I mean it isn't enough for any decent whole life, health, or car insurance. Could MAYBE buy 3 years of term insurance AND, while it WILL "pay" for home/renters insurance, it won't cover the deductible. It is NOT enough to move into the average apartment, NOT enough to even START to buy a decent home, NOT enough for a years worth of food. So $1000 sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. STILL, the average income of Americans is about $30K-$40K, and it ALL adds up, so that doesn't mean we can just throw $1000 away. It is like pennies here. People may LITERALLY throw them away, but 100 pennies make a dollar, 100 dollars makes a 100 dollar bill, 100 times that is 10,000, and 100 times that is 1 million. So it all adds up.

Yet $1000 is 2.5 times the average yearly income of someone in haiti. They ALSO don't see the DEBT in the US! So they figure that we are VERY rich, that we have NO problems, or poor, and see THEMSELVES as the only rightful recipients. Some may doubt what I said here, but this very thread has people ECHOING ideas along the lines of what I just said.

BTW the capitals were not yelling, but are emphasis. Hopefully you don't think I am jumping all over you.

Steve

[butters]

Originally Posted by seasoned

Yet $1000 is 2.5 times the average yearly income of someone in haiti. They ALSO don't see the DEBT in the US! So they figure that we are VERY rich, that we have NO problems, or poor, and see THEMSELVES as the only rightful recipients. Some may doubt what I said here, but this very thread has people ECHOING ideas along the lines of what I just said.

BTW the capitals were not yelling, but are emphasis. Hopefully you don't think I am jumping all over you.

Steve

Hehe, I could see the emphasis , cool, I kind of thought that to but what I don't get is, what makes them think they can have it unconditionally.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by butters

Hehe, I could see the emphasis , cool, I kind of thought that to but what I don't get is, what makes them think they can have it unconditionally.

Ever hear of Robinhood? It is the same concept.

The idea of Money was REALLY supposed to be to simplify barter. A person's work becomes a currency that others will accept because others accept it. I guess the concept was too simple, and the idea of the original purpose has been perverted.

Steve

[HeySal]

I think the point of the aid problem is not that we give it - but when do we stop and why aren't we monitoring its use? All countries that ask for aid should have a viable problem that needs to be fixed and aid to fix it is only humanitarian. But - the aid should be targeted directly at the problem it is meant to relieve, then cut once that purpose is achieved. If the problem continues because aid was abused or pocketed, it is time for the people of that country to stand up for themselves and force a regime change. If people need continual aid because they are having more babies while those they already have are starving to death in abject poverty, then something is wrong with their ideas of what their rights are. Where the hell is the logic or compassion of bringing children into a family or into a country where most are dying because they can't be fed?

It might have been possible at one point - around population numbers of 4 bil, to feed people in countries with graft in gov and with rampant ignorance in the population, but now even the more wealthy countries have people being pushed into the streets and starving and the aid to others at the expense of their own is no longer rational. REALIZE ...these governments are allowing people to over-populate because they get more aid as the population grows. They are encouraging people to breed even when they already have 3 or 4 or more children dying of starvation.

In WA state alone there are 3,000 sr. citizens starving to death - yet we send money to Haiti and Ethiopia to support populations that have been starving for at least 2 generations now. I see pictures of mothers with starving babies at their breasts who are posing with their other 4 or 5 starving children in pictures taken to elicit aid funding. We are to be touched at the starvation of the innocent and being good people we are moved to send more money --- but really -- it doesn't matter how much aid we are sending, people in these countries who have two or three or four kids they already can't feed or house just keep having more kids and needing more support.
Those kids keep right on dying.

When does it become more moral to say "no more" than to give more? I will never give up the idea of sending aid in a natural disaster. Even the places with the best defenses can fall to nature. Look at Seattle - building codes up the ying, but now they know that the whole city sits on sediment, sits right on top of a subduction zone, and has a fault running right down the middle of it that connects right to the subduction zone -- don't think we won't ever need some aid ourselves - if that thing blows a the 9 mag level it's prone to hit occasionally, Canada, US, Japan, and possibly a few other areas will need aid.

But when a country of people continues not only to exist in unsurvivable poverty decade after decade even as it allows the population of the people to increase three-fold, I see no morals in the people, the governments, nor the act of giving aid to those perpetuating that situation.

We have been sending more and more money to Ethiopia since the 70's - they are now starving their kids to death at the rate of 25,000 per day....yet people protest birth control being immoral....yeah whatever. I suppose that makes the mother a complete saint who has had 6 babies - three that died already of starvation, 3 that are in the process of doing so, and one on the way. Makes the government golden too for being moral enough to not teach birth control and make means available while pocketing all that extra aid they are getting for having that situation going on there.

People need to start figuring out when it's actually more moral to withhold money for aid. Without what we've sent, people wouldn't be still having such large numbers of children just to kill them.