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Rant... The Three "S'": School, Socialism and ...

by digidoodles
99 replies
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A bit of background: I adopted my two oldest children from overseas, both at the same time, both a little over two years old. My daughter had some orphanage delays that are often common in Eastern Europe; my son had RAD. When we came home, my ex-husband began molesting my daughter, causing more trauma, etc. The day I found out was the day he was escorted out of my house by the police (May 18, 2004). As a result of all of this trauma and the issues surrounding that situation, my daughter has been labeled by the school system with low IQ. You'd never know it talking to her or interacting with her, ever. They have her IQ at, essentially, a drooling child. People who know my daughter laugh when they hear that.

At any rate, last year my daughter expressed interest in learning how to build websites. I had planned on teaching her how to do a basic wordpress site. She was so excited! Her first response was , "I can make websites for my friends!" Fast forward to this year when she received notification of participation in a mandatory 5th grade entrepreneurial fair. COOL! We had to submit a proposal and it had to be approved. There was a list of suggestions, but that list was not one that said "you must pick something from here". I suggested building websites for people on the fly (simple Wordpress stuff on a domain that I have for the community, utilizing WordpressMU. ) She would take the orders, help them with user names, customizations, etc. etc. and I would plug it in for her. We submitted a proposal: DENIED.

Here's the email that started this conversation... this is from me:

"Hey there

I want to make sure I understand regarding L's entrepreneur project-- although we can help oversee the fair, we can't help with the delivery?

By now, you've gotten a chance to review her proposal regarding building websites. What I had offered her was to come up to school, bring her laptop, she help customize the orders and explain everything and I would immediately build them on our server for her. Everyone would get their log-in information to change things later on. I have domain that I was going to develop for the community (I haven't had a chance to yet!) XXX -- I was going to have the websites reside there or think of something else. For example, whatever the user name is, it would be username.XXXX.com for their website.

Ls a bit disorganized and she may have lost the form regarding approval, etc for the fair so I am not sure where that stands right now? Also, if you let me know if the above is ok, I can proceed with helping her flesh all of this out and get ready to go. Otherwise, we have to come up with an alternative.

Please let me know at your earliest convenience. I am available for the duration of the fair and would commit to being there for her during the whole process and ensuring everything is running smoothly.

Warmly,

Brandi
=======
Teacher's response:
"Dear Ms. XXX,

I sent L's form back the day she brought it to me. I didn't approve L's project because it doesn't seem that L is doing the project, you are doing the main part of the work. (Read how many times you say "I will..." in the email below.) The cost is also much more that students will be bringing to the fair. Most students will have about a dollar. I understand that you are available to help her, but most students will not have this help available to them, so we don't feel it would be fair to the others.
I'm sorry she didn't bring her form back. I know this limits your planning time.
Please just think small and simple when coming up with a new plan. Many students are selling baked goods, or other food items. Some are playing a game for a prize, that type of thing.
Good luck!
==========
Ok, this really set me off. Here's my reply:
"Ms. XX

I had wondered about L getting the form- thanks for the explanation.

I have to disagree with just about everything you said. Your logic is really flawed. If you notice the context in which the word "I" is used, you will see this: "I will build them on our server" (akin to "I will boil the water for the rice pudding we are going to sell.") or "I have a domain" ("I have a mixing bowl my child will be able to use to make the cookies they are going to sell in the fair.") In addition, if we applied your logic of "most students will not have this help available.. so we don't feel it would be fair to others..." then we'd never have Christmas programs, because not every parent could attend and it wouldn't be fair to the childrens' parents who couldn't attend. We couldn't have a Christmas party because not all parents could attend. We can't go on field trips because not all parents can attend and it's not fair that those parents that can attend should be able to enjoy experiencing the fun with their children. We should all be the same, equal distribution among everyone. I'm sure you see the fallacy in this logic. After a bit of thought, this is much like the quote, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

In addition, I quoted no cost. I'm not sure why you said the "cost is also much more than students will be bringing to the fair" without knowing the cost? The cost was going to be nominal, within the cost that you had said previously - $.50- $.75. (Also, how about those kids that can't afford to bring any money to the fair? Using the logic above, it's not fair to have something that not everyone can participate in, correct?)

I'm pretty irritated for my daughter-- this is something she has actually been wanting to learn to do way before this entrepreneur fair came into being. (She can still learn, I know this and she will!) When I told her that I would teach her my craft, her first response was "I can make websites for my friends." Again, this was last year, before we even knew about this project.

Perhaps next time you should give a list of activities that they must choose from instead of allowing them to be creative? You did say think "small and simple". That's definitely what children need to be taught in school. After all ,we all know that the world hasn't yet met its quota for small thinkers. We definitely need more!

Understand my frustration with this socialist mindset. I live in the United States of America, a place where, as long as it doesn't violate any laws or rules within the school system, my child should be afforded the opportunity to be as creative as she desires, not stunted by some arbitrary rules of perceived equality. I know, I know, her IEP indicates she has such a low functioning IQ and, therefore, she's completely incapable of any great things so we'll just let her fall by the wayside! She hasn't got a chance at greatness anyway. Well, at least that's what the head of the special ed department within the XXX County School System, essentially said. And, she's the expert, right? She definitely would know.
Brandi XXXX
======
The irony... an entrepreneurial fair... where children are encouraged to "think small and simple". Wonder if Warren Buffet's teachers felt that way? Bill Gates? The Google Dude (no I don't know his name and no I don't care to Google it.. ha!)

The small and simple thinkers often become the greatest contributors to technological advances, right?

*rolls eyes in head*.

This was the final nail in the coffin... within the next few weeks, we are starting back homeschooling.

I told my daughter... and she said "well, I guess we will just have to make cupcakes like everyone else!" (I wonder if I'm allowed to help her at all with that process or if she can even use my bowls??)

Thanks for letting me rant.

Warmly,

Brandi

P.S. I welcome any creative ideas... I'm a bit irritated to get creative.... Ha. Start up costs must be less than $20. Most children will only be bringing about $1.00 to the fair.
  • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
    You complain about an alleged "socialist mindset," yet you send your kid to taxpayer-supported, government-run schools? Send your daughter to a private school, or better yet, home-school her -- then you can be in complete charge of her curriculum.
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    • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
      Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

      You complain about an alleged "socialist mindset," yet you send your kid to taxpayer-supported, government-run schools? Send your daughter to a private school, or better yet, home-school her -- then you can be in complete charge of her curriculum.
      Perhaps you overlooked the portion where I said I was going to homeschool

      And, there's two issues with private schools:

      1. There's not a good one around this area.
      2. They are too expensive

      Point is, I'm a tax-payer. It shouldn't be a "if you don't like this, then leave" kind of thing. This shouldn't be happening.

      We wonder why there's a general dumbing-down of America. A teacher, recommending "small and simple" for an ENTREPRENEURIAL FAIR. That's like telling science fair kids "please don't be innovative. Throw some baking soda in with some vinegar, call it a volcano and you're done. Thanks."

      If we want our children to meet the challenge... shouldn't they be challenged?

      Warmly,

      Brandi

      P.S. There's no "alleged socialist mindset". It IS a socialist mindset. One can call it anything he/she chooses, it still doesn't mean it stinks of socialism.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

        Perhaps you overlooked the portion where I said I was going to homeschool
        Yes, I did miss that -- near the bottom.

        My main point was that taxpayer-supported, government-run schools fits the dictionary definition of socialism:

        Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
        It appears contradictory to me to take advantage of these socialist tools yourself and then complain about their "socialist mindset."

        P.S. There's no "alleged socialist mindset". It IS a socialist mindset. One can call it anything he/she chooses, it still doesn't mean it stinks of socialism.
        I say "alleged" because it is merely your OPINION, not a FACT. The statement "It IS a socialist mindset" is a simple assertion, so vague and generalized as to be functionally meaningless. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but there's a difference between fact and opinion.
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        • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
          Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

          Yes, I did miss that -- near the bottom.

          My main point was that taxpayer-supported, government-run schools fits the dictionary definition of socialism:



          It appears contradictory to me to take advantage of these socialist tools yourself and then complain about their "socialist mindset."



          I say "alleged" because it is merely your OPINION, not a FACT. The statement "It IS a socialist mindset" is a simple assertion, so vague and generalized as to be functionally meaningless. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but there's a difference between fact and opinion.
          Well, it's your opinion that it's my opinion. I happened to believe it's a fact. I mean, if it walks like a duck, smells like a duck and acts like a duck, it's not a porcupine.

          Denial of a fact, doesn't make it any less true.

          Missing the point again: Schools should not be a socialist environment, period.

          Also missing another point: consistency- if I cannot help my daughter at the fair in the manner proposed because of "equality", then we must make sure that everything is equal at all times or NOTHING is equal and "fair".

          Re-distribution of resources (time, money,etc) is a socialist mindset.
          ENTREPRENEURIAL FAIR= think small and simple

          Isn't that very thing counterproductive to what we are supposed to be teaching our children? I CAN complain if I propose to take action (and I do). I have NO RIGHT to complain if I take no action.

          Warmly,

          Brandi
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        • Profile picture of the author ARVolund
          It is not really a matter of taking advantage of tax-payer supported schools. You have to pay for them whether you use them or not as your school taxes are not something you can opt out of if you decide you want to send your kids to private school or home school them.

          You are forced to pay for the schools even if you educate your children elsewhere. If you decide to send your kids to a private school you are paying twice to educate them, once at the public school that you do not want to use and once at the private school.

          For a lot of people this puts alternate means of education out of their reach.


          Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

          Yes, I did miss that -- near the bottom.

          My main point was that taxpayer-supported, government-run schools fits the dictionary definition of socialism:



          It appears contradictory to me to take advantage of these socialist tools yourself and then complain about their "socialist mindset."



          I say "alleged" because it is merely your OPINION, not a FACT. The statement "It IS a socialist mindset" is a simple assertion, so vague and generalized as to be functionally meaningless. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but there's a difference between fact and opinion.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by ARVolund View Post

            It is not really a matter of taking advantage of tax-payer supported schools. You have to pay for them whether you use them or not as your school taxes are not something you can opt out of if you decide you want to send your kids to private school or home school them.

            You are forced to pay for the schools even if you educate your children elsewhere. If you decide to send your kids to a private school you are paying twice to educate them, once at the public school that you do not want to use and once at the private school.

            For a lot of people this puts alternate means of education out of their reach.
            Actually, those of us without kids pay even more. If you have 5 kids, you get 5 more deductions than someone without kids, so those of us without pay more in taxes, even though we don't use certain resources like schools.

            I think the anti-socialists with kids should send me some money.
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            • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              Actually, those of us without kids pay even more. If you have 5 kids, you get 5 more deductions than someone without kids, so those of us without pay more in taxes, even though we don't use certain resources like schools.

              I think the anti-socialists with kids should send me some money.
              You don't get the easy way out Kurt, if you want 5 deductions you need to raise 5 kids!
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

                You don't get the easy way out Kurt, if you want 5 deductions you need to raise 5 kids!
                I noticed digidoodles thanked Val for this post...Funny, as me paying MORE taxes to pay for school for her kids is pure socialism.

                I guess we just pick and choose our socialistic values based on who gets the money?

                ps...Val, I don't really want the deductions, as I feel it's good for SOCIETY as a whole...I just want someone to admit there are times that socialism isn't bad, like when I pay more in taxes, but use fewer gov resources...Or things like libraries, roads and highways, parks...However, I do have a point that those of us without kids are taxed more than those that do have kids for SOCIAL reasons.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

      You complain about an alleged "socialist mindset," yet you send your kid to taxpayer-supported, government-run schools? Send your daughter to a private school, or better yet, home-school her -- then you can be in complete charge of her curriculum.
      Schools are supposed to be SCHOOLS, NOT socialist experiments. And this is SUPPOSEDLY dealing with being an Entrepreneur. From wikipedia:

      An entrepreneur is a person who has possession of a new enterprise, venture or idea and assumes significant accountability for the inherent risks and the outcome.[note 1] The term is originally a loanword from French and was first defined by the Irish economist Richard Cantillon. Entrepreneur in English is a term applied to the type of personality who is willing to take upon herself or himself a new venture or enterprise and accepts full responsibility for the outcome. Jean-Baptiste Say, a French economist is believed to have coined the word "entrepreneur" first in about 1800. He said an entrepreneur is "one who undertakes an enterprise, especially a contractor, acting as intermediatory between capital and labour."[note 2]

      Yet the teacher effectively said to copy everyone else, etc... And YOU talk about hypocrisy?

      And public schools are provided so everyone has a chance at getting SOME education. Each state supposedly has standards they must meet and tells them what items they must cover. Due to inflation, etc... private schools can cost a LOT! It ALSO limits the ability to home school, if that is even possible. Originally, school didn't include the idea to teach down to the LCD.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    "Keep it simple"-choices are limited. Cupcakes are so high in fat and refined sugar. Maybe you all can make fruit smoothies Yummmm and it only has fruit sugar.

    John Stossel did some report for 20/20 on US public schools and how it compares to other 1st world countries. Our public schools didn't look very good. Charter schools did and they are very hard to get into. You have to win a lottery to get in. And private school is only realistic for a small fraction of families.
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  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
    You know the whole irony about the cupcake deal....

    The school system instituted a policy of "only healthy snack-- like granola bars, muffins, carrot sticks.."

    At Christmas, another room mother called to see if I could bring something for their HOLIDAY party (we can't use the word Christmas anymore!) and I said, "sure, what do you need?" She replied "well, we're having carrot sticks, celery, cheese, ranch dressing, muffins". I laughed, literally, and said, "no, really, you're kidding me right?" She said "no. We have to have healthy snacks." I was really, really ... I don't even know the word... stunned, maybe? I thought it was ridiculous.

    Fast forward to Valentine's Day. The school sent out a "Candy-Gram" announcement. "For just $.25 cents, you can send your child and/or his/her classmates a candygram!"

    So, let me get this straight... no candy... unless it profits the school, right? Got it! ($.25 for a nickel piece of candy)

    Hypocrisy at its best.

    Warmly,

    Brandi
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

      You know the whole irony about the cupcake deal....

      The school system instituted a policy of "only healthy snack-- like granola bars, muffins, carrot sticks.."

      At Christmas, another room mother called to see if I could bring something for their HOLIDAY party (we can't use the word Christmas anymore!) and I said, "sure, what do you need?" She replied "well, we're having carrot sticks, celery, cheese, ranch dressing, muffins". I laughed, literally, and said, "no, really, you're kidding me right?" She said "no. We have to have healthy snacks." I was really, really ... I don't even know the word... stunned, maybe? I thought it was ridiculous.

      Fast forward to Valentine's Day. The school sent out a "Candy-Gram" announcement. "For just $.25 cents, you can send your child and/or his/her classmates a candygram!"

      So, let me get this straight... no candy... unless it profits the school, right? Got it! ($.25 for a nickel piece of candy)

      Hypocrisy at its best.

      Warmly,

      Brandi
      And some muffins can be pretty bad! And WHO SAID ranch is the only healthy dressing! And did you know that some fat is now found to be NECESSARY! HEY, just look at fish oil, CLA, MCT, etc... ALL considered fat. OK, MCTs are technically a kind of hybrid, but STILL.
      It turns out that coconut oil could be pretty good for you!

      Still, if they mandated that vending machines had GOOD things, I'm sure kids would LOVE IT! I know I would have. I actually hated that they didn't have any automats. A lot of the school workers seemed unkempt, and the food was poor. And NOW people act like it is a new and secret phenomenon. INCREDIBLE! Didn't ANY of them go to public school?

      And the idea that we can't call christmas christmas!? WHY!?!?!? Do you think someone maybe figured out that it could be written Christ['s] mas[s]? I could say more, but....

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Stupid in America by John Stossel-public schools failing kids and dumbing down America.

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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      because it doesn't seem that L is doing the project, you are doing the main part of the work
      I think the comment above is the main problem. You would be doing the actual work of the project so it would be a student/parent project rather than just a student project. I also think it could backlash as other students and their parents might resent it and that resentment would fall on your daughter.

      You say that a year ago you had planned to teach her to create blogs - a good idea.

      Your daughter's response was

      "I can make websites for my friends!"
      Clearly she was enthusiastic about the idea a year ago - did you teach her to build blogs?

      I hope you aren't transmitting that "it's not fair" opinion to your daughter. The idea was (you say) your suggestion - why not let her pick something from the list. Perhaps if she has her own blog, she could demonstrate adding posts to it and explain that as her project. That might be acceptable to the school because she would be doing it herself.

      This doesn't equate with making cupcakes - unless you make the cupcakes for her. I think you need to back away from the argument and look at this again.

      It's easy to bash schools - but in this case I think they are simply trying to have students present projects themselves. I don't see anything wrong with that.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I think the comment above is the main problem. You would be doing the actual work of the project so it would be a student/parent project rather than just a student project. I also think it could backlash as other students and their parents might resent it and that resentment would fall on your daughter.

        You say that a year ago you had planned to teach her to create blogs - a good idea.

        Your daughter's response was



        Clearly she was enthusiastic about the idea a year ago - did you teach her to build blogs?

        I hope you aren't transmitting that "it's not fair" opinion to your daughter. The idea was (you say) your suggestion - why not let her pick something from the list. Perhaps if she has her own blog, she could demonstrate adding posts to it and explain that as her project. That might be acceptable to the school because she would be doing it herself.

        This doesn't equate with making cupcakes - unless you make the cupcakes for her. I think you need to back away from the argument and look at this again.

        It's easy to bash schools - but in this case I think they are simply trying to have students present projects themselves. I don't see anything wrong with that.

        kay
        Kay,

        I might agree with you... except that you're wrong... LOL! Kidding!

        No, seriously-- she would be taking the orders, deciding what the customizations would be, advising how to choose a user name, helping them fill out the paperwork... I literally would be pressing a button. (We were going to have a book for them to choose what they wanted.. number the choices - the templates-- she was going to pick 10 or 20 they could choose from, put them in a book, number them, etc.)

        Here's the deal: if my daughter, who they say has a low IQ, actually does something that, God forbid, is great or may possibly be considered "normal", they can't have that. That would fly in the face of everything they've been saying. And they "can't be having none of that!" THEY are the experts. I'm just a parent...what do I know?

        At an IEP meeting... I made mention that my daughter wanted to be a vet (and, she could do that.. if she put her mind to it and WORKED). The head of the special ed department looked at me and said, in a sing-songy voice, "ohhhh she will DEFINITELY work with animals! That's for SURE!" I wanted to slap her. (And I generally don't want to slap people... I said GENERALLY She was attempting to tell me: "don't aim so high.. we know she loves animals.. and there's a place for her doing stuff with animals-- picking up their POOP!"

        It's really not about my involvement at all. It's about them. They don't want to look like a fool.

        Warmly,

        Brandi

        P.S. Being an entrepreneur doesn't mean not having any help. I mean, if it did, all of us here would be pretty screwed.
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      • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Clearly she was enthusiastic about the idea a year ago - did you teach her to build blogs?
        I haven't yet-- that wasn't a year ago. It was last year-- the end of last year. A few months. I should have been a bit clearer.

        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


        I hope you aren't transmitting that "it's not fair" opinion to your daughter. The idea was (you say) your suggestion - why not let her pick something from the list. Perhaps if she has her own blog, she could demonstrate adding posts to it and explain that as her project. That might be acceptable to the school because she would be doing it herself.
        I'm not the one saying it's not fair. The school is. THe school is saying that because not every childs' parent can be involved, I can't be. But, how many of the kids that are baking cupcakes are going to do it COMPLETELY by themselves? They are 10-12 years old. Answer? NONE of them. None of them are going to do it COMPLETELY by themselves.

        It's not the school's responsibility to dole out "fairness".

        I mean, I don't think it's fair that my two oldest children were abandoned by their birth parents in a rat and roach infested orphanage in Eastern Europe. I don't think it's fair that they suffered neglect. I don't think it's fair that we were extorted for a great deal of money to get out of that God-forsaken country with my children.

        There's a lot of things in life that aren't "fair". We can't cry "do-over" or make exclusions just because X doesn't have X. That's my point-- socialism... a redistribution of EVERYTHING for the sake of "fairness".
        The mindset of leveling the playing field for everyone is a socialist mindset. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

        See, this really isn't just about helping with a simple entrepreneur project...

        It's the slow infiltration of a socialist regime. (Yes, and liberals will say I'm a right-wing nut case! If that makes me a right wing nut case, THEN I OWN IT!

        Warmly,

        Brandi
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      Stupid in America by John Stossel-public schools failing kids and dumbing down America.
      As much as I HATED the quality of "teaching" at schools I was at, I guess I should consider myself LUCKY that I would not be one that flunked leno's tests, and would do reassonably well on "are you as smart as a 5th grader". In the shows I saw, I would have goten to the million dollar question several times, and won the million at least once.

      Still, in the first grade I went to a PRIVATE school, and seemed to be the only one able to read each sentence, rather to sporadically word by word.

      In the THIRD grade, I had a HORRIBLE teacher! She taught the students about hawaii, and singing. Want to take a STAB at where she was from? YEP, HAWAII! She actually APPOLOGIZED to my mother, AT THE END OF THE YEAR, for being such a bad math teacher. She said she was "NEW". THANK YOU Ms. LUCE! (SARCASTICALLY thanking her, and yep, that is her real name, she "taught" in kern county, ca).

      And they have art classes, singing, dance, etc... What ever happened to the "3 Rs",, Reading, wRiting, and aRithmetic? There are 2 broadcasters in LA county that said that one benefit of having a Bachelors degree is that they can "teach" school, and get benefits, etc... if they can't keep a job elsewhere.

      HECK, I had a problem in a Spanish class, and the TEACHER suggested a tutor. The tutor got EVERYTHING wrong! I explained to HIM how and why, and he couldn't help me! You know why? MY class was a chapter ahead of HIS class! He hadn't covered the stuff yet. CRAZY! And that was the SAME teacher that ENJOYED annoying us! She actually SAID she was trying to annoy us! A couple classes later, she had the principal come in to try to find out who was hurting her car! NICE CLASS, HUH?

      But YEAH, Belgium sounds like they have a good system. Sadly, I can't claim I am surprised.

      BTW I once went to another PRIVATE school. The school was OK. Some of the teachers seemed a little crazy. The shop teacher cut corners and, unfortunately, was missing several fingers. The biology teacher would get upset, and throw desks across the room. I'm NOT kidding. There were two real army personell that took their job a LITTLE too seriously. Still, they were ok. The dorms were not that great, and fixed up a bit, and students were forbidden to say anything bad, or hint at problems to the parents. If parents think they can really have an idea of how things go, they are sadly mistaken. SOME NOW provide STATE tests AFTER a period of time as a benchmark. Other metrics are no good. Your child may have no proper base of reference, or have problems, and credit cards rarely show the truth. That is one reason why people go to Harvard, or MIT. A "B" in such a school is supposed to be better than an "A" elsewhere. Likewise, in some public schools, a "D" student might be an "A" student elsewhere.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        As much as I HATED the quality of "teaching" at schools I was at, I guess I should consider myself LUCKY that I would not be one that flunked leno's tests, and would do reassonably well on "are you as smart as a 5th grader". In the shows I saw, I would have goten to the million dollar question several times, and won the million at least once.

        Still, in the first grade I went to a PRIVATE school, and seemed to be the only one able to read each sentence, rather to sporadically word by word.

        In the THIRD grade, I had a HORRIBLE teacher! She taught the students about hawaii, and singing. Want to take a STAB at where she was from? YEP, HAWAII! She actually APPOLOGIZED to my mother, AT THE END OF THE YEAR, for being such a bad math teacher. She said she was "NEW". THANK YOU Ms. LUCE! (SARCASTICALLY thanking her, and yep, that is her real name, she "taught" in kern county, ca).

        And they have art classes, singing, dance, etc... What ever happened to the "3 Rs",, Reading, wRiting, and aRithmetic? There are 2 broadcasters in LA county that said that one benefit of having a Bachelors degree is that they can "teach" school, and get benefits, etc... if they can't keep a job elsewhere.

        HECK, I had a problem in a Spanish class, and the TEACHER suggested a tutor. The tutor got EVERYTHING wrong! I explained to HIM how and why, and he couldn't help me! You know why? MY class was a chapter ahead of HIS class! He hadn't covered the stuff yet. CRAZY! And that was the SAME teacher that ENJOYED annoying us! She actually SAID she was trying to annoy us! A couple classes later, she had the principal come in to try to find out who was hurting her car! NICE CLASS, HUH?

        But YEAH, Belgium sounds like they have a good system. Sadly, I can't claim I am surprised.

        BTW I once went to another PRIVATE school. The school was OK. Some of the teachers seemed a little crazy. The shop teacher cut corners and, unfortunately, was missing several fingers. The biology teacher would get upset, and throw desks across the room. I'm NOT kidding. There were two real army personell that took their job a LITTLE too seriously. Still, they were ok. The dorms were not that great, and fixed up a bit, and students were forbidden to say anything bad, or hint at problems to the parents. If parents think they can really have an idea of how things go, they are sadly mistaken. SOME NOW provide STATE tests AFTER a period of time as a benchmark. Other metrics are no good. Your child may have no proper base of reference, or have problems, and credit cards rarely show the truth. That is one reason why people go to Harvard, or MIT. A "B" in such a school is supposed to be better than an "A" elsewhere. Likewise, in some public schools, a "D" student might be an "A" student elsewhere.

        Steve
        See, I know their little games.

        I used to be on the other side. Well, I was NEVER on their side. But, I was on the other side of the table. I was a certified interpreter for the Deaf in inner city schools. I went to those same IEP meetings. I heard the things they said behind the parents and the kids' backs. I know what goes on. And, I called them on it then. Needless to say, I may have been the best interpreter skill-level-wise, but I was the most despised among the adults (fave of the kids and that's all that mattered!!).

        In a public school system, as a professional, you are expected to tow the party line. And when you don't... well, you are out of luck.

        It's the same with parents in a school system. If you don't buy everything they say, hook, line and sinker, you are a troublemaker. THEY are the PROFESSIONALS! THEY are the ones that went to school to be a TEACHER. And, don't even mention the homeschooling word...UP JUMP THE DEVIL! I could NEVER possibly be qualified to homeschool my child. I don't have a paper on my wall with a degree in education. Therefore, defer to the experts.

        After all, who knows what my child needs better than I do? THEM, OF COURSE!!!

        Warmly,

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      • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        As much as I HATED the quality of "teaching" at schools I was at, I guess I should consider myself LUCKY that I would not be one that flunked leno's tests, and would do reassonably well on "are you as smart as a 5th grader". In the shows I saw, I would have goten to the million dollar question several times, and won the million at least once.

        Still, in the first grade I went to a PRIVATE school, and seemed to be the only one able to read each sentence, rather to sporadically word by word.

        In the THIRD grade, I had a HORRIBLE teacher! She taught the students about hawaii, and singing. Want to take a STAB at where she was from? YEP, HAWAII! She actually APPOLOGIZED to my mother, AT THE END OF THE YEAR, for being such a bad math teacher. She said she was "NEW". THANK YOU Ms. LUCE! (SARCASTICALLY thanking her, and yep, that is her real name, she "taught" in kern county, ca).

        And they have art classes, singing, dance, etc... What ever happened to the "3 Rs",, Reading, wRiting, and aRithmetic? There are 2 broadcasters in LA county that said that one benefit of having a Bachelors degree is that they can "teach" school, and get benefits, etc... if they can't keep a job elsewhere.

        HECK, I had a problem in a Spanish class, and the TEACHER suggested a tutor. The tutor got EVERYTHING wrong! I explained to HIM how and why, and he couldn't help me! You know why? MY class was a chapter ahead of HIS class! He hadn't covered the stuff yet. CRAZY! And that was the SAME teacher that ENJOYED annoying us! She actually SAID she was trying to annoy us! A couple classes later, she had the principal come in to try to find out who was hurting her car! NICE CLASS, HUH?

        But YEAH, Belgium sounds like they have a good system. Sadly, I can't claim I am surprised.

        BTW I once went to another PRIVATE school. The school was OK. Some of the teachers seemed a little crazy. The shop teacher cut corners and, unfortunately, was missing several fingers. The biology teacher would get upset, and throw desks across the room. I'm NOT kidding. There were two real army personell that took their job a LITTLE too seriously. Still, they were ok. The dorms were not that great, and fixed up a bit, and students were forbidden to say anything bad, or hint at problems to the parents. If parents think they can really have an idea of how things go, they are sadly mistaken. SOME NOW provide STATE tests AFTER a period of time as a benchmark. Other metrics are no good. Your child may have no proper base of reference, or have problems, and credit cards rarely show the truth. That is one reason why people go to Harvard, or MIT. A "B" in such a school is supposed to be better than an "A" elsewhere. Likewise, in some public schools, a "D" student might be an "A" student elsewhere.

        Steve
        I like the idea of schools being taken over by private companies, have the schools compete with each other and parents can put their kids in whatever school they want as long as they were willing to get them there. If a school serves nasty food, parents wont send their kids there. Parents don't want their babies eating crap. If there are crappy teachers, a bully problem, etc, parents will look at other options=losing $$ Schools will have high standards, make sure the teachers are performing well, have nutritious lunches, activities, etc. At least in Belgium they can go to whatever school they want. No districts. But just an idea, only in a perfect world.

        Like Stossel said things are better when the government isn't in charge. Would you rather go to the bathroom in a public park or a private business?

        Speaking of bad schools I got cheated out of middle school. I happened to get some of the biggest morons who somehow managed to get a teaching degree. I didn't learn squat in some of these classes. In a math class, the teacher didn't teach math. There was a problem student and her and the teacher would cuss at each other till class was over. :rolleyes: If not that, the teacher would lecture on things that had nothing to do with math. So the next year, when you get your new math textbooks there is always a review in the beginning going over what you supposedly learn last year. I couldn't even do the review cause I didn't learn a thing. Not easy catching up on 2 years of math at once. I was supposed to do Algebra but was never taught pre-algebra.

        Then another teacher, don't even get me started on him. He didn't teach. He didn't even give homework. Which should be good to a student. He had a few favorite students and they would chat about whatever like it was a social club. Everyone else who wasn't in the popular pack would talk among themselves. When report card time came I was nervous about what grade I would get cause I didn't do anything and if I got a bad grade I got in bad trouble. I got an A. I got all A's for that class. And I never did a single thing or ever had to do a second of homework. Or reading. Looking back I shoulda complained to the counselor but students just don't complain that the teacher doesn't make them do anything. I also think teachers should have some kind of psychological testing before teaching cause that man was not "right" if you know what I mean.
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        • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
          Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

          I like the idea of schools being taken over by private companies, have the schools compete with each other and parents can put their kids in whatever school they want as long as they were willing to get them there. If a school serves nasty food, parents wont send their kids there. Parents don't want their babies eating crap. If there are crappy teachers, a bully problem, etc, parents will look at other options=losing $$ Schools will have high standards, make sure the teachers are performing well, have nutritious lunches, activities, etc. At least in Belgium they can go to whatever school they want. No districts. But just an idea, only in a perfect world.
          This is a FAB idea. There are some charter schools run by companies here in the US, but not enough, by a long shot.

          Stossel is right. If you want to screw something up... get the government involved.

          On a side note... Obama is trying to put a freeze on foreclosures... if that happens, we are soooooooooo beyond messed up. People will stop paying their mortgages completely... and our banks will fail. Our economic system will be turned upside down... and the government will then take over the banks.

          We are merely a few years from being a completely government-controlled society. And these things I have mentioned in the school system are the beginnings of the unraveling.

          I, for one, am very, very afraid.

          Warmly,

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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Bush proposed a freeze on foreclosures in 2008, California had a freeze on foreclosures in 2009, major banks and mortgage companies have had freezes on foreclosures... But Obama proposes it and people get afraid the whole world will end. It's comical really. Fox news is not good for you. Don't be afraid, this country is still thoroughly in the grasp of the corporations just as brandstrom said.

            Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

            On a side note... Obama is trying to put a freeze on foreclosures... if that happens, we are soooooooooo beyond messed up. People will stop paying their mortgages completely... and our banks will fail. Our economic system will be turned upside down... and the government will then take over the banks.

            We are merely a few years from being a completely government-controlled society. And these things I have mentioned in the school system are the beginnings of the unraveling.

            I, for one, am very, very afraid.

            Warmly,

            Brandi
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              How is it a complaint about a school project being denied - can be turned into a political commentary - when we know that's not allowed here?
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                How is it a complaint about a school project being denied - can be turned into a political commentary - when we know that's not allowed here?
                It rather depends on whether capitalism/socialism is a political distinction, or an economic distinction. I find it pretty obviously the latter, although some clearly don't agree.
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                It became political in the original post when the op used socialism in the title and then said the teacher had a socialist mindset ( which is a real stretch).

                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                How is it a complaint about a school project being denied - can be turned into a political commentary - when we know that's not allowed here?
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  It became political in the original post when the op used socialism in the title and then said the teacher had a socialist mindset ( which is a real stretch).
                  Excuse me, but you contradict yourself!

                  FIRST you say political. NOT exactly correct!
                  THEN you say MINDSET, and that is CLEARLY the case based on what the teacher said.
                  THEN you said it was a stretch, though it clearly is NOT!

                  BTW the idea of stopping foreclosures IS chilling to the economy. It artificially makes prices seem higher and obscures risk. MEANWHILE, it REALLY increases risks which means rates must go higher. YEAH, I know people that don't try to see both sides can't understand the reasoning behind that. C'est la vie.

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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    There's no contradiction at all, even if you do use capital letters.
                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                    Excuse me, but you contradict yourself!

                    FIRST you say political. NOT exactly correct!
                    THEN you say MINDSET, and that is CLEARLY the case based on what the teacher said.
                    THEN you said it was a stretch, though it clearly is NOT!


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      • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post


        And they have art classes, singing, dance, etc... What ever happened to the "3 Rs",, Reading, wRiting, and aRithmetic? There are 2 broadcasters in LA county that said that one benefit of having a Bachelors degree is that they can "teach" school, and get benefits, etc... if they can't keep a job elsewhere.
        I meant to comment on this: EXACTLY!

        My 6 year old came home and said "this is what we are doing in performing arts..."

        And I said, "oh my... performing arts for a 6 year old... how.. interesting."

        And before all of the artsy people get all up in arms-- I'm a trained classical opera singer. That's how I paid my way through college the first time I went. (The second time was for interpreting for the Deaf/ASL.) So, I'm not against the arts, per se. I just think that there are fundamentals that should be focused on. We need to stop majoring in minors.

        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post


        BTW I once went to another PRIVATE school. The school was OK. Some of the teachers seemed a little crazy. The shop teacher cut corners and, unfortunately, was missing several fingers.
        LOL! I literally laughed out loud at this. I know you weren't joking... but I could just picture it. Ha ha ha!!

        Warmly,

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        • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
          Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

          So, I'm not against the arts, per se. I just think that there are fundamentals that should be focused on. We need to stop majoring in minors.
          That raises another question -- does everyone have the same definition of what the goal of schooling should be in the first place?

          If it's just the bare basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic, it doesn't need to take anywhere near 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, 8 or 9 months a year, for 12 years for a child to learn the basics. We could teach that at home in a couple of hours a day.

          Are we training children to think for themselves? Or just giving them enough to be able to get and hold onto a job somewhere? Or would they be better citizens with a more "well-rounded" education that includes an appreciation for art and music and other non-fundamental subjects?

          John Taylor Gatto has an interesting view on what he thinks schooling is really all about:

          Against School, by John Taylor Gatto
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          • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
            Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

            That raises another question -- does everyone have the same definition of what the goal of schooling should be in the first place?

            If it's just the bare basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic, it doesn't need to take anywhere near 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, 8 or 9 months a year, for 12 years for a child to learn the basics. We could teach that at home in a couple of hours a day.

            Are we training children to think for themselves? Or just giving them enough to be able to get and hold onto a job somewhere? Or would they be better citizens with a more "well-rounded" education that includes an appreciation for art and music and other non-fundamental subjects?

            John Taylor Gatto has an interesting view on what he thinks schooling is really all about:

            Against School, by John Taylor Gatto
            I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU!!!!! (And Gatto)

            Excellent, excellent piece.

            It cements my thinking.

            I regret having sent my children back to school. I got very sick for a couple of years--I contracted MRSA twice within a two year period and almost died. It took a very long time to recover; I simply could not physically manage it all.

            Brilliant piece.

            Thank you for sharing

            Warmly,

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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Libraries, roads, highways, parks, all good. I wish the gov. had accountability for how they spent taxes tho. There was something on the news once about how millions of tax dollars were spent...like to research cow farts. :confused: And with all the taxes you pay, I wish they'd use some of that giving people health care-that's my big thing. Yeah, there's a good part of socialism which is free healthcare for everyone regardless of who they are.

    Now did you know there is a new tax required and you must mail a check to me? Don't worry I'll spend it wisely.
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  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
    Kurt,

    I thanked you for your post as well Did you miss that? (I've tried to thank everyone that has participated in this thread-- if I've missed someone, it's an oversight, simply!)

    I totally think socialism is bad in every way, shape and form. Are we talking about taxes? Because I haven't even touched on that. Taxes? What about a flat tax? What about fair taxation?

    The takeaway from that was supposed to be... you should get something for raising 5 children... and I took it as a tongue-in-cheek remark, not really serious. And, no, I don't think I should get something special from someone else for raising 10 children (yes we have 10 children total). I get something special from raising them-- I get them AND every single, hair-pulling-out, laugh-until-you-cry, scared-to-death experience associated with raising them. That is reward enough.

    Warmly,

    Brandi
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Brandi -

      I just think that there are fundamentals that should be focused on. We need to stop majoring in minors.
      I agree with that thoroughly.

      I do think you are over-invested in the anger about this. I posted once - and you answered twice:p

      this really isn't just about helping with a simple entrepreneur project
      Actually - that is what this is about. Of course there are major issues with the schools...but your anger is at one school and one issue. To argue your position it's normal to expand the argument - and I don't disagree with the comments about the schools.

      Whether children are gifted, "standard" or challenged - they still need help finding ways to reach the highest limit they can. You know that. They also have to learn to accept that things don't always go the way they want and learn the coping mechanisms of solving problems.

      With many children you well know that nothing hurts or angers a woman more quickly than feeling her child is being treated unfairly.

      But - you have to look at the alternatives. The child won't want to be the only student without a project - and the project you suggested has been denied. Help her find another project in the spirit of "let's see what else would work" rather than the "it's not fair - we'll show them" mode. I know you know this - and I know it's hard to do it.

      It's a big, ugly school system mess in this country - but this is one little girl and to you she's more important than the whole system. Focus on helping her (behind the scenes) come up with a project she can do herself - so SHE can shine. The only thing important is that she feels good and knows she did her best.

      My nieces homeschool their children as one group (18 total kids, I think). It began with one niece upset that her son was labeled "slow" and she felt the school wasn't pushing him to do more because of the label. That first "slow" son graduated from college a couple years ago.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Brandi -

        I agree with that thoroughly.

        I do think you are over-invested in the anger about this. I posted once - and you answered twice:p
        I tend to do that-- sorry I forget that I should have addressed something in the first post and instead of going back an editing it, I post again!

        I still disagree... making cupcakes is not going to allow her to shine.

        Want to set her apart? Let her do something that's different than everyone else.

        I only suggested this one thing because it's something she has repeatedly said she wanted to do "for her friends". It's not me pushing it. She thinks it's uber-cool to learn it and do it for other people.

        The problem I have isn't simply not doing it.. it's the "well, not everyone can xxx so, she can't either." Again, if they truly are going to use that "logic"... then we have to eliminate a whole host of things for the sake of "fairness" and "equality"... field trips, HOLIDAY programs, etc.

        It REALLY isn't about the denial of the proposal. It's the trumped-up reasons... bottom line is... well read the article that KenStrong posted... the school system has a job to do- to label children.. and to not allow them to overcome that label. If they did allow them to overcome that label, then, they'd have to admit they were wrong in the first place.

        And school systems, like the government, don't admit wrongdoing...unless they are TRULY forced to. And even then, only with certain "conditions".

        I think you and I see it differently-- you see it as merely a project. I see it as a widespread problem that really hits at the problems with modern day educational systems... "you are the parent... you have no clue... we are the experts.. see that piece of paper on the wall? Expert. Now, sit down, shut up and we'll tell you what's best."

        This isn't an isolated problem... these types of things are happening ALL OVER America... the dumbing down of children, truly suppressing how great they can REALLY be.

        But what do I know? I'm just the parent. The special ed director essentially told me my daughter is going to shovel poop when she gets older. I gotta listen.

        Warmly,

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    • Profile picture of the author James Vang
      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post


      I totally think socialism is bad in every way, shape and form.
      Clearly you are out of touch with reality then or have absolutely no idea what socialism is.

      Your house catches on fire and the Fire Department puts it out for you?

      Socialism.

      You get robbed and the police do an investigation and get your stuff back?

      Socialism.

      Get mail out of your mail box?

      Socialism.

      Use public transportation?

      Socialism.

      Get a government grant or loan for college?

      Socialism.

      Dive down the road which was built by the government?

      Socialism.

      Go to the Library?

      Socialism.

      I could go on all day, any government funded program is socialist.

      Not only that, all industrialized nations are and have been a mix of socialism/capitalism, including the USA. Some lean more towards socialism, while others, like the USA, lean more towards capitalism.

      If you love capitalism so much you should be thankful you live here in the US because the balance is tipping ever more towards capitalism despite what the conservative pundits would have you believe, Obama and the Dems are corporate whores just like the Republicans.

      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

      When we came home, my ex-husband began molesting my daughter, causing more trauma, etc. The day I found out was the day he was escorted out of my house by the police
      You can thank socialism for those police helping you.

      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

      We are merely a few years from being a completely government-controlled society
      Maybe so but I think you've missed the fact that our government both Republican and Democrat, is corporately owned for all intents and purposes. A gift from your beloved capitalism run amok.

      The Supreme Court just recently made it pretty much legal to buy politicians so this the scales will only tip further towards out of control capitalism.

      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

      I'm not the one saying it's not fair. The school is. THe school is saying that because not every childs' parent can be involved, I can't be. But, how many of the kids that are baking cupcakes are going to do it COMPLETELY by themselves?
      Ok so the entrepreneurial fair sucked. Is that really a surprise? Seriously, if your kid really wants to be an entrepreneur, teach her yourself, you know you can't count on schools public or private for that sort of thing.

      Just think of all the other kids who are getting screwed by the system as less competition for your daughter.

      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

      Romans 8:28-- bad things happen and they always work together for good to them that love the Lord. It's been proven true over and over and over again in my life. That doesn't mean that I can't explain the bad, explain why it's bad, take on the bad, change it and learn to appreciate what that experience has done for me in my life.
      As much as I hate the bible, I guess that's a nice verse for self motivation.

      Anyway, if you really want to make things better for your daughter or even the country, go about it in a pragmatic way.

      You sound like your heart's in the right place but have been listening to way to much Rush Limbaugh in regards to socialism and the state of the country.

      To make a difference you have to get your facts straight or else you end up at one of those Teabagger parties holding a sign that says "OBAMA IS HITLER!!" or "SAY NO TO HEALTHCARE!!!".
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      • Profile picture of the author ScottR
        Interesting thread. I do find it a bit strange that so many of the very people that seem particularly upset right now about our perceived descent into socialism often are required to pay so little in actual Federal income tax. In fact, it seems most people have no idea how little they actually pay. So let's run a few numbers.

        Let's assume the average American household income is around $50,000 (it was $50,233 in 2007, according to Wikipedia). A family of 4, with 2 dependent kids making that $50,000 would pay about $1,069 in Federal income tax for 2009 (or a 2.1% effective tax rate) And that is assuming you just take the standard deduction and get the child tax credit. If that family has 3 kids, they pay a whopping $69 in federal income tax.

        Even a family with 3 kids making $100,000, definitely on the higher end of the spectrum, would pay a maximum of about $11,000, and likely quite a bit less if they have a mortgage. So even this relatively wealthy family would pay a maximum of an 11% tax rate.

        And many of these same people are up in arms about this perceived socialism. It's so incongruous that it's almost surreal to me. When we consider how little most families actually pay on the Federal level - and at a time we are fighting 2 wars - it should come as no great shock that we are running such large Federal account deficits.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        Clearly you are out of touch with reality then or have absolutely no idea what socialism is.

        Your house catches on fire and the Fire Department puts it out for you?

        Socialism.
        Gee, I WISH! You know, one town is actually CHARGING for this now! Will *I* have the same problem?

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        You get robbed and the police do an investigation and get your stuff back?

        Socialism.
        STILL waiting for them to resolve my "open but inactive" case that I all but solved in MINUTES! I COULD have solved it 100%, but I didn't want the store to be able to claim I made the charges. BTW that happened about 20 years or so ago!

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        Get mail out of your mail box?

        Socialism.
        OK, NOBODY REALLY trusts the mail, and costs are going up. That idiot police officer tried to claim the evidence I gave them "probably got lost in the mail". Just his luck, I HAND DELIVERED IT to them AT THE POLICE STATION! He asked for it again but after MONTHS!?!? With MY personal info? FORGET IT! The chances of finding them were FAR less, etc...

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        Use public transportation?

        Socialism.
        Gee, we DO pay for it.

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        Get a government grant or loan for college?

        Socialism.
        Well, I would be the last on THAT list!

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        Dive down the road which was built by the government?

        Socialism.
        Again, supposedly our taxes pay for that(gas, drivers license, car registration), and we STILL may have to pay tolls. Did you know that some cities are effectively selling off streets?

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        Go to the Library?

        Socialism.
        WOW, I STILL remember when they closed some.

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        Not only that, all industrialized nations are and have been a mix of socialism/capitalism, including the USA. Some lean more towards socialism, while others, like the USA, lean more towards capitalism.

        If you love capitalism so much you should be thankful you live here in the US because the balance is tipping ever more towards capitalism despite what the conservative pundits would have you believe, Obama and the Dems are corporate whores just like the Republicans.
        AW, but ONLY those that contribute! In a way, THAT is socialism! They take from the taxpayer to allow them to support allies so they can get more money for themselves.

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        You can thank socialism for those police helping you.
        OK, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for costing me tens of THOUSANDS, and allowing some jerks to get thousands just from MY credit. No fewer than 11 were robbed by them that day. and that doesn't count all the "social security" I will likely NEVER see, and the taxes that seem to serve best only as pathways into socialism.

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        Maybe so but I think you've missed the fact that our government both Republican and Democrat, is corporately owned for all intents and purposes. A gift from your beloved capitalism run amok.
        When something "runs amok" like that, it ceases to be itself. Look at russia. IT was capatalist at one point, and supposedly "run amok". THEN we called it SOCIALIST! STILL, it was really just an oligarchy. The few stole from the many, and claimed they owned what they didn't.

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        The Supreme Court just recently made it pretty much legal to buy politicians so this the scales will only tip further towards out of control capitalism.
        Actually, it just makes it more transparent. One of the real opponents of the decision got LOTS of money from soros, buffet, and many others.

        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        Ok so the entrepreneurial fair sucked. Is that really a surprise? Seriously, if your kid really wants to be an entrepreneur, teach her yourself, you know you can't count on schools public or private for that sort of thing.

        Just think of all the other kids who are getting screwed by the system as less competition for your daughter.
        She said it was mandatory!


        Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

        You sound like your heart's in the right place but have been listening to way to much Rush Limbaugh in regards to socialism and the state of the country.

        To make a difference you have to get your facts straight or else you end up at one of those Teabagger parties holding a sign that says "OBAMA IS HITLER!!" or "SAY NO TO HEALTHCARE!!!".
        WOW are you ever quick to make SNAP decisions about someone you don't know. I saw this coming. I could say more, but...

        BTW I am sad you didn't mention ambulances. The last one I called for on 911 cost me almost $800!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author James Vang
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          Gee, I WISH! You know, one town is actually CHARGING for this now! Will *I* have the same problem?
          Ok, I wasn't arguing for the quality of any of the public services I mentioned. I was simply making the point:

          Public service = socialism

          Private service = capitalism

          Well, that's an ultra simplified explanation but that's the jist of it.

          If those services were all carried out by the private sector would the quality be better? Maybe.

          Would they cost more?

          In most cases yes.

          It costs more to catch a taxi than to ride the bus.

          It costs more to send your kids to a private school than a public one.

          Hiring a private security team costs more than calling the police.

          And don't even get me started on private health care vs. public health care.


          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          BTW I am sad you didn't mention ambulances. The last one I called for on 911 cost me almost $800!
          I didn't mention ambulances because most hospitals are privately owned and operated and aren't an example of socialism.

          If they were it wouldn't have cost you anything except maybe a few cent out of your pay check every week.

          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          If it[socialism] were done well, I might agree with you[Michael Motley].
          Statically speaking, Canada and Europe seem to be doing pretty well with their particular brand of socialism/capitalism mix.

          Originally Posted by digidoodles

          Re: the person that said something about me listening to too much Rush... I NORMALLY don't address ignorance, but I'm making an exception here to set the record straight: I don't listen to Rush. I don't watch Glenn Beck. I don't listen to politics on the news. (I barely watch the news.) I don't listen to talk radio... I form the views I have based on the education and information I have. Stealing a phrase from Yo Gabba Gabba: Try it. You'll like it.
          When you make a statement like "I totally think socialism is bad in every way, shape and form." you have to realize what you sound like.

          You are entitled to your opinion but when you say that sort of thing you sound like you are out of touch with reality and are just parroting something a pundit said.

          I didn't accuse you of listening to Rush, I said you sound like you do, and when you say things like that it should be easy to see why.

          I don't know where you're getting your info from but please go look up some statistics from a reliable source on how Canada and Europe's mix of socialism/capitalism is working much better than America's.

          Oh and also, all public schools are socialist programs since they are funded by the government.

          Why not send your daughter to a private school? You could have more control over the education she receives and also help support capitalism while your at it.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            For a while I was going to say how some assertions have been false, etc... Alas, it IS getting too political. IRONIC since this was originally to make it clear that it isn't.

            It is still SAD that we pay someone to feign teaching a subject that they have such great disdain for that they try to redefine its most basic concepts.

            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
            Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

            I didn't accuse you of listening to Rush, I said you sound like you do, and when you say things like that it should be easy to see why.
            It's not easy for me to see why .... since I DON'T LISTEN TO HIM

            I'd have to know what he says in order to know if I sound like him, right?

            Originally Posted by Brandstrom View Post

            I don't know where you're getting your info from but please go look up some statistics from a reliable source on how Canada and Europe's mix of socialism/capitalism is working much better than America's.
            We'll just whistle and kick our feet in the dirt and pretend you didn't just say this. Or we'll contribute it to lack of sleep or something.

            *whistling and kicking... whistling and kicking*
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    10 kids Can't fathom.

    There was a country that was paying women who had children. I was in the wrong country. Can't remember what country it was.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

      10 kids Can't fathom.

      There was a country that was paying women who had children. I was in the wrong country. Can't remember what country it was.
      In the US they pay people to have kids! My mother spoke of how one person at the supermarket said she would get an extra $50/month per kid. I've heard and seen similar. Is it any wonder why so many poor families STILL have LOTS of kids?

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
    And here I go again address Kay.. ha... I MEANT to say... ha..

    I see nothing wrong with teaching my child why things like this are wrong.

    I mean, not everything is Miss Mary Sunshine in life. What's so bad about teaching her why the system is screwed up and what we can do to make it better? Why ignore that fact and just choose something off a list of suggestions? Why not make a big deal about it? I mean, if I can't make a big deal about THIS (the suppression of her creativity and her desire and the infiltration of socialism), what on earth IS important to make a big deal about?

    I completely and fully believe in Romans 8:28-- bad things happen and they always work together for good to them that love the Lord. It's been proven true over and over and over again in my life. That doesn't mean that I can't explain the bad, explain why it's bad, take on the bad, change it and learn to appreciate what that experience has done for me in my life.

    Warmly,

    Brandi
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

    (Read how many times you say "I will..." in the email below.)
    I make that number... zero.

    Is it just me?

    But on to the main point.

    I do not see how this is socialist.

    Your daughter submitted a form for approval and it was denied.

    In any free capitalist market, you can submit a business plan for funding or licensing and have it denied... for no good reason. Often because someone doesn't understand what you are doing, or finds your approach unreasonable, or just plain doesn't like your shoes.

    There is no more capitalist sentiment than arbitrary, unfounded rejection.

    I understand you're upset about it and wish it could be otherwise, but all you've actually been told is that you can't do this for the 5th grade entrepreneur fair. You can still do it - just not for the fair.

    You've also been told you have to do SOMETHING for the fair. And whether you like it or not, when your daughter shines like a beacon, she is going to make everyone else look and feel like crap. A major part of this lesson is how to fit in, which is really the only thing public school understands how to teach, and they do it well.

    Your daughter's teacher has made it reasonably clear, to my reading, that you are expected to do something that sits in the fat part of the bell curve. She can't say this out loud, for various cultural reasons, but that's what she's saying. And while that is certainly a social sentiment... I don't find it socialist at all.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      What's so bad about teaching her why the system is screwed up and what we can do to make it better?
      You are telling us this child is challenged educationally - yet arguing that she needs to have an overview of the system of education? To me, that is a total disconnect.

      I doubt the message she gets would be what you meant - she is more likelyto think "life is not fair" or "the school is bad" or "I don't fit in". None of those are positives that carry any value for her.

      Learning to accept a "no" and find an alternative is valuable. Learning not to rant and rave when she doesn't get exactly what she wants is valuable.

      If the problems she has are ones that will be with her throughout life, she needs coping skills far more than analytical views of societey and education.

      if I can't make a big deal about THIS (the suppression of her creativity and her desire and the infiltration of socialism), what on earth IS important to make a big deal about?
      Problem I see is you are taking one incident and turning it into world war III and no matter how lofty the arguments - it's still nothing more than a rejection of an idea for a school project.

      The special ed director essentially told me my daughter is going to shovel poop when she gets older. I gotta listen.
      Did that person REALLY say that - or is that what YOU heard? Was the person who said your daughter could work with animals (when you said she wanted to be a vet) really making fun or acknowledging your daughter's interest in animals? I think you have a lot of anger built up that has little to do with a single school project.

      If you pass all this anger on to your daughter, any project she does may be one she see as "second best". To me, as a mother, that's just wrong.

      We'll have to agree to disagree - I wish your daughter the best with whatever projects she decides to do.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I hate to say it Steve, but you are correct on some of the above mentioned things.
    Services that SHOULD be free like ambulances, fire departments, are charging people now and siccing the collection agencies on people to pay up even if they can't afford to.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Motley
    socialism is good.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Michael Motley View Post

      socialism is good.
      If it were done well, I might agree with you. Communism and dictatorships can ALSO be good, if run WELL. But nobody has ever managed that.

      In the US the whole thing has been one big PONZI SCHEME! I am practically the last in my generation, the BABY boomers: born between 1946 and 1964. Do you guys know what that means? Retirement is as early as 62! That means, assuming NOTHING changes, that "income" will keep reducing until about 2008 when costs will start increasing. Costs will continue to increase on falling income until sometime after 2026. Those born after that will have to borrow MORE just to break even. Such is the problem with US socialism. And social security monthly payments started only in about 1940, just 26 years before the BBG probably really started providing. Medicare started about when the BBG started providing.

      It is probably just COINCIDENCE that 2008 was when this depression started, but this is a BAD time to have problems like this.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
    Wow, been gone all day and look what I missed

    Briefly (we'll see... ha)

    Kay, I like you... I always have.. but I disagree with you. BUT, you did illustrate my point pretty perfectly. You said it "You are telling us this child is challenged educationally - yet arguing that she needs to have an overview of the system of education? To me, that is a total disconnect."

    Educationally challenged does not equal incapability of understanding things. My ex-husband was educationally challenged although nothing short of pure genius. If he wasn't such a sick individual, he could have achieved really great things in life, although educationally challenged. He had the aptitude to truly invent something that would revolutionize the world. (I seriously mean this... although I think he's a sick, sick individual that is incapable of being rehabilitated through any traditionally prescribed therapies.) The educational challenge is exactly what they are scared of "well, we've already said she's got a low IQ, if we let her do anything great, it might prove us wrong and we can't be havin' none of that there!" Also, regarding the shoveling poop... did she say those words? No. Is that what she was getting at: YES. I'm not naive enough to think she was being encouraging. It was one of those phrases that they are taught at those inclusion conferences they have.

    Re: the person that said something about me listening to too much Rush... I NORMALLY don't address ignorance, but I'm making an exception here to set the record straight: I don't listen to Rush. I don't watch Glenn Beck. I don't listen to politics on the news. (I barely watch the news.) I don't listen to talk radio... I form the views I have based on the education and information I have. Stealing a phrase from Yo Gabba Gabba: Try it. You'll like it.

    Seasoned has really addressed everything to a T. He actually gets where I am coming from. He understand that it's not just about an entrepreneurial fair--it's everything connected to that and surrounding that. And to boil it down to "it's just a project, get over it and pick something else" is really simplistic. Simple minds would think it's just a fair. But it's not. It's about something far bigger than that. Read the article that KenStrong posted. Very telling and very true. A person PM'd me their story.. and told me that a teacher once told them this: "The way the system is built is to guarantee your failure. It isn't to guarantee your success."

    No truer words have ever been spoken.

    "Think small and simple."

    Warmly,

    Brandi
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

      Simple minds would think it's just a fair. But it's not. It's about something far bigger than that.
      This is true, but I think you've missed what it's actually about.

      This isn't about making people into entrepreneurs. It's about making people feel like part of a community that can achieve things. It's a feel-good thing, not a competition, and it is important that nobody appears to "win."

      If you are not going to play the game by those rules, then you are cheating. I understand that you think the game would be better if the rules were different, but the rules are NOT different, and if you want to play - you will have to play by the same rules as everyone else.

      This has not one damn thing to do with economics OR politics, because it is completely irrelevant to socialism. It is socialisation. It is intended to bring the students closer together through a shared experience that apes an adult activity.

      If your daughter has a distinct and unique experience, she is not sharing.

      This is not a problem because distinct and unique experiences are wrong, but because they are not the point of this activity. And the teacher, while she does understand this distinction, not only cannot say this out loud - she may not even be consciously aware that this is the problem. Most teachers aren't. They simply don't perceive the problem beyond "that's not right."
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        This is true, but I think you've missed what it's actually about.

        This isn't about making people into entrepreneurs. It's about making people feel like part of a community that can achieve things. It's a feel-good thing, not a competition, and it is important that nobody appears to "win."

        If you are not going to play the game by those rules, then you are cheating. I understand that you think the game would be better if the rules were different, but the rules are NOT different, and if you want to play - you will have to play by the same rules as everyone else.

        This has not one damn thing to do with economics OR politics, because it is completely irrelevant to socialism. It is socialisation. It is intended to bring the students closer together through a shared experience that apes an adult activity.

        If your daughter has a distinct and unique experience, she is not sharing.

        This is not a problem because distinct and unique experiences are wrong, but because they are not the point of this activity. And the teacher, while she does understand this distinction, not only cannot say this out loud - she may not even be consciously aware that this is the problem. Most teachers aren't. They simply don't perceive the problem beyond "that's not right."
        OH, OK! so you are the kind of person that feels that all should play a game of baseball where ALL pitch the SAME way from the SAME place to the SAME place at the SAME time and SIMULTANEOUSLY they should ALL have equal propinquity to ALL bases! Would ANYONE here pay to see such a game, if it were even possible!?!?!? And you feel that we should have a stock market where ALL make money on everything 100% of the time.

        SORRY, the world does NOT work like that. Hopefully EVERYONE here understands that if they make $10, it is because someone else is out $10.

        And WHY should one require another to do NOTHING but waste their own time? What is next, do they go to people's houses to steal and claim that it is part of the curriculum? After all, if time is money then money is time, and that IS what they are doing NOW!

        Lastly, if the idea is to feel like part of what THEY claim is a community, then they should say THAT! The fact is that with busing people in, economics, teacher allocation, school politics, allowed activities, and restricted access, the school can NOT be claiming to teach them about THEIR communities. It is IMPOSSIBLE!

        What is the point of having such an event to the LCD anyway? Based on what the teacher, and you, said, everyone should go out and buy enteman's for say $.20 a piece and sell them for $.20 a piece. After all, they CAN'T make their own. If they did, GASP, someone might have BETTER ones! They CAN'T sell at a profit, because that would cost too much, etc... HORROR!

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          OH, OK! so you are the kind of person that feels...
          ...that children need to learn both how to achieve and how to belong.

          This game is about belonging.

          I understand that the people who are good at achieving would rather play a game about achievement. We will play one of those some other time. It would be completely unfair to those people if we never played games about achievement.

          I understand that the people who are bad at belonging would rather not play a game about belonging. And again, that will happen some other time. It would be completely unfair to those people if we always played games about belonging.

          But right now, this is what we are doing.

          Because the people who are good at belonging want to play a game about belonging, and the people who are bad at achievement want not to play a game about achievement. And it would be completely unfair to those people if we never played games about belonging, and always played games about achievement.

          Because a very, very important lesson for all of these children to learn is that you don't always get to play the game you want. Sometimes, you don't get to choose the game, and you don't get to say you aren't going to play.

          And again, I can think of no more capitalist sentiment.
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          • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            ...that children need to learn both how to achieve and how to belong.

            This game is about belonging.
            Actually, it isn't about belonging at all.

            It's a wrapping up of a year's end worth of all the stuff they should have learned in elementary:

            1. Business proposal (economics)
            2. Advertising (writing, language arts)
            3. Sales Record/Calculating Profit (math)
            4. Profits ( economics, math)

            This is from their paper.. entitled:

            "Expectations and Checklist for the Entrepreneur Fair"


            Don't be all that you can be. THINK SMALL, THINK SIMPLE! Be exactly like everyone else, just in case someone might get their feelings hurt that you aren't exactly like them and.. no greatness... if you aspire to greatness... that makes the teachers' work much, much more difficult. Mediocrity!

            Many of you surprise me-- I mean, of all places to find people who don't get the frustration of "think small, think simple"??!!??

            If someone came on this board and said that the best piece of advice they could give to a newbie is to "Think small and simple!", y'all would rip them a new one. And don't say you wouldn't!

            Go back aspiring to mediocrity everyone Your teachers taught you well!

            Warmly,

            Brandi
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    • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
      Woo my ADD is kicking in and I don't know what this thread is about anymore :p But this stood out:

      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

      Stealing a phrase from Yo Gabba Gabba: Try it. You'll like it.
      You have a Yo Gabba Gabba fan at your house too? I've never heard anyone else quote Yo Gabba Gabba

      Just yesterday Summer was walking around saying "Don't Bite Your Friends." Another Yo Gabba Gabba quote I wanted to go to the concert coming in late March but I went to the site and I think all the tickets are gone. Where's the sobbing emoticon?

      I know, off topic. In the off topic. :p
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      • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
        Originally Posted by valerieSONORA View Post

        Woo my ADD is kicking in and I don't know what this thread is about anymore :p But this stood out:



        You have a Yo Gabba Gabba fan at your house too? I've never heard anyone else quote Yo Gabba Gabba

        Just yesterday Summer was walking around saying "Don't Bite Your Friends." Another Yo Gabba Gabba quote I wanted to go to the concert coming in late March but I went to the site and I think all the tickets are gone. Where's the sobbing emoticon?

        I know, off topic. In the off topic. :p
        Ha! Ha! YES! You know my favorite episode? The one with Jack Black in it! HA HA HA! That man is so hysterical! And the follow-up interview they did with him about being on the show is hysterical too.

        "Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. It's ooookkaaay. You don't have to.. "

        Before my daughter knew the name of the show... she called it.. "The Black Man Show". HA HA HA! (Ok, not politically correct-- apple doesn't fall far from the tree-- but cute nonetheless!)

        Warmly,

        Brandi
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Tim is right, this thread has been political from the first post.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    OK, where are the icons with the eyeroll, the laughing uncontrollably, etc? I swear, what a fruitless endeavor sometimes! You can claim it is capitalism, but just saying "You don't let us do what WE want, and you claim to be capitalist, so the capitalist ideal is not to let you do what you want." Doesn't make it true. That is actually a socialist mindset because, again, you say to go to the LCD so nobody does worse than anyone else.

    AGAIN I ask that if there is NO hope of improving, NO hope of learning, NO reward, and NO challenge, what is the point of doing it? And WHY should we have to pay for it?

    Even the SPECIAL olympics allows for people to do their best, and some will lose! And WHY do we have an OLYMPICS if it is SO bad?

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      OK, where are the icons with the eyeroll, the laughing uncontrollably, etc? I swear, what a fruitless endeavor sometimes! You can claim it is capitalism, but just saying "You don't let us do what WE want, and you claim to be capitalist, so the capitalist ideal is not to let you do what you want." Doesn't make it true. That is actually a socialist mindset because, again, you say to go to the LCD so nobody does worse than anyone else.

      AGAIN I ask that if there is NO hope of improving, NO hope of learning, NO reward, and NO challenge, what is the point of doing it? And WHY should we have to pay for it?

      Even the SPECIAL olympics allows for people to do their best, and some will lose! And WHY do we have an OLYMPICS if it is SO bad?

      Steve
      Ok, so I said I don't listen to Rush-- I don't currently... but in the 90's, I only had AM radio in my car. One day, I was driving and I happened to hear him on.. and he had a parody about "non-competitive, non-results sports". I just remembered that... and I just googled it... funny stuff. "level the playing field"...

      And that's a wrap..
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

        Ok, so I said I don't listen to Rush-- I don't currently... but in the 90's, I only had AM radio in my car. One day, I was driving and I happened to hear him on.. and he had a parody about "non-competitive, non-results sports". I just remembered that... and I just googled it... funny stuff. "level the playing field"...

        And that's a wrap..
        What the heck!?!? I never said anything contrary, or to challenge you. Frankly, I don't get the reasoning anyway. Last time I even HEARD rush limbaugh was MONTHS ago. Last time I LISTENED to Bill Press was only a few DAYS ago. BTW I used to listen to bill press a LOT more than rush. Given on when I was on my lunch break, BP was just in a better timeslot, and they were on the SAME station in LA. If rush could make that big an impression, and had all that control, why not bill press?

        And I never even heard any such parody on sports, etc...

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      That is actually a socialist mindset because, again, you say to go to the LCD so nobody does worse than anyone else.
      Steven, there is no "worse." It isn't an achievement activity. Nobody is winning or losing. There is no such thing.

      It's like when you go to a movie with your friends. Who "wins" going to the movie? Nobody. The very concept is absurd, but you don't seem to grasp that. You're complaining that the school won't let a student "win," but the entire point is that you can't win. It's going to the movie. Nobody wins. Nobody should be trying to win. Anyone trying to win doesn't grasp the point of the activity.

      And that isn't because going to the movies is socialist, either. That's a stupid concept.
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      • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Steven, there is no "worse." It isn't an achievement activity. Nobody is winning or losing. There is no such thing.

        It's like when you go to a movie with your friends. Who "wins" going to the movie? Nobody. The very concept is absurd, but you don't seem to grasp that. You're complaining that the school won't let a student "win," but the entire point is that you can't win. It's going to the movie. Nobody wins. Nobody should be trying to win. Anyone trying to win doesn't grasp the point of the activity.

        And that isn't because going to the movies is socialist, either. That's a stupid concept.
        There IS a WIN. And, the win is NOT the fair.

        The win is the achievement in doing what you set out to do and not being limited by arbitrary rules of perceived equality.

        The loss is being told to think small, think simple.

        You know, if some people here don't get that THAT principle being taught in our schools makes EVERYONE the loser, I'm not even sure what to say.

        Warmly,

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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

          The win is the achievement in doing what you set out to do and not being limited by arbitrary rules of perceived equality.
          TIME AND PLACE.

          Let me make this first-grade simple.

          SOMETIMES you are competing. Somebody wins. Somebody loses. Everybody plays, whether they want to or not. If you don't compete, you are wrong, and you will be disciplined for it.

          This is like when you start a pizza place down the road from another pizza place. If you don't compete with that pizza place in the local market, the local market will not do business with you, and your business will go bankrupt.

          That is not socialism.

          SOMETIMES you are not competing. Nobody wins. Nobody loses. Everybody plays, whether they want to or not. If you do compete, you are wrong, and you will be disciplined for it.

          This is like when you join the local Chamber of Commerce, and you meet other business people there. If you compete with them during the meetings, they will think you are a jerk and not do business with you, and your business will go bankrupt.

          That is not socialism either.

          Both of these things are real scenarios that you will really face in the real world when running your real business in a free market capitalist system. And if you do not understand how to handle both scenarios, your ability to succeed in that free market capitalist system is severely reduced.

          This has absolutely nothing to do with making sure nobody loses. Everybody has to play both kinds of games, whether they are good at one or both or neither. Even though you cannot win or lose at the non-competitive game, you can still succeed or fail.

          The teacher is trying to tell you that your idea is fail. She has also told you what would be successful. You can "fight the power" all you want, but that game is a competition, and you will lose.

          I understand and appreciate that you think your daughter is wonderful and should be given her chance to shine, but this is neither the time nor the place to shine. It is time to be one of the many stars in the sky, to twinkle a little - and then back off, so other stars can twinkle, too. She will get her chance to shine, and maybe then she will.

          But right now, shining is not the point. Nobody is denying anyone's right to shine. Only the right to shine here and now.
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          • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            TIME AND PLACE.

            Let me make this first-grade simple.

            SOMETIMES you are competing. Somebody wins. Somebody loses. Everybody plays, whether they want to or not. If you don't compete, you are wrong, and you will be disciplined for it.

            This is like when you start a pizza place down the road from another pizza place. If you don't compete with that pizza place in the local market, the local market will not do business with you, and your business will go bankrupt.

            That is not socialism.

            Let me make this kindergarten simple:

            You are right. That is not socialism.

            Socialism would be this: I can't have a pizza place because not everyone else can have one. We have to level the playing field and make it "fair" for everyone. If you can't, I can't, no one can. (Does this sound familiar?)

            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


            SOMETIMES you are not competing. Nobody wins. Nobody loses. Everybody plays, whether they want to or not. If you do compete, you are wrong, and you will be disciplined for it.

            This is like when you join the local Chamber of Commerce, and you meet other business people there. If you compete with them during the meetings, they will think you are a jerk and not do business with you, and your business will go bankrupt.

            That is not socialism either.
            No, socialism would be this: I can't make it to the local Chamber of Commerce. Other people can. But, since I can't make it, we shouldn't even have one. All things must be equal. If I can't do it, you can't do it. Level the playing field. (Does this sound familiar?)

            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            The teacher is trying to tell you that your idea is fail. She has also told you what would be successful. You can "fight the power" all you want, but that game is a competition, and you will lose.

            I understand and appreciate that you think your daughter is wonderful and should be given her chance to shine, but this is neither the time nor the place to shine. It is time to be one of the many stars in the sky, to twinkle a little - and then back off, so other stars can twinkle, too. She will get her chance to shine, and maybe then she will.

            But right now, shining is not the point. Nobody is denying anyone's right to shine. Only the right to shine here and now.
            The teacher has stated the the idea is fail, because "it's not fair to everyone".

            So, in being fair, there really is no fair. Think about it.

            The real reason is this: they would all be wrong if she did something great, something different. And they cannot allow that to happen. That would undermine THE VERY PREMISE of their school structure: BEING RIGHT ALL THE TIME.

            The time is for everyone to shine. This is a time to say "see what I can do... see what I did".

            Think small. Think simple. All successful entrepreneurs do.

            Warmly,

            Brandi
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

              The real reason is this: they would all be wrong if she did something great, something different.
              Dear, being great and different is against the rules of this game. It is cheating. When you cheat, the rest of the players don't lose. You do.
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              • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Dear, being great and different is against the rules of this game. It is cheating. When you cheat, the rest of the players don't lose. You do.
                Being great and different is against the rules of the establishment.

                It isn't cheating. It's just not fair to be great when everyone else can't be. So, no one is great. And, no one can try to be great. It wouldn't be fair.

                We must all be the same: simple and small.

                In school, simple and small is MUCH easier to deal with than complex and big. They don't like squeaky wheels. They'd rather them rust, fall off and roll down a hill somewhere.

                Seriously, simple and small IS easier to manage. In the orphanage, my son was "promoted" to an older class because he was "so responsible". Truth is this: he was a handful.. ha! He was curious about anything and everything and wanted to see, touch, do and be involved in every single thing. He was 2.5 years old. He was out of the range of "norm" for his "peers". Therefore they "promoted" him to a MUCH older class. Truth is: he was big and complex.. ever questioning.. far too much for those taking care of his age group.

                He hasn't changed a whole lot in those respects... curious as ever, figures out everything, always on the move, has to see, touch, and do... and FIX! But make no mistake, the "promotion" had nothing to do with his well-being... and had everything to do with those in charge. A concept replayed, every day, in every school across the nation.

                As I said in my original email to the teacher... her concept of small and simple is certainly one that must be promoted. The world has yet to meet its quota on small thinkers.

                Warmly,

                Brandi
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  There you go. See, there's no reason to bring this "socialism mindset" stuff into it. You just gave another perfectly viable reason for the teachers decision. I don't necessarily agree with her. I think it was an interesting idea for a school project.

                  BTW, I also had adopted kids in school and ended up suing the school district and winning over how they dealt with my daughter.

                  Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

                  In school, simple and small is MUCH easier to deal with than complex and big.
                  Warmly,

                  Brandi
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    BTW, I also had adopted kids in school and ended up suing the school district and winning over how they dealt with my daughter.
                    FIGURES!

                    And WHY sue if nobody can win?
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                    • Profile picture of the author KimW
                      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                      FIGURES!

                      And WHY sue if nobody can win?
                      Steve,
                      In a lawsuit somebody always wins.

                      Usually the winners are the lawyers................
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                        Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                        Steve,
                        In a lawsuit somebody always wins.

                        Usually the winners are the lawyers................
                        Often nobody wins...

                        One example is my cousin that had an anaesthesiologist that didn't give her enough oxygen during surgery. Sure, she "won" a few million in a law suit, but she's been bed-ridden with severe brain damage for 20+ years. She's out-lived her life expectation and the money she "won" ran out years ago.

                        Despite her "winning" the lawsuit, I have a hard time saying she won.
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                        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                          Often nobody wins...

                          One example is my cousin that had an anaesthesiologist that didn't give her enough oxygen during surgery. Sure, she "won" a few million in a law suit, but she's been bed-ridden with severe brain damage for 20+ years. She's out-lived her life expectation and the money she "won" ran out years ago.

                          Despite her "winning" the lawsuit, I have a hard time saying she won.
                          And SHE was one of the "lucky" ones! Technically, several lawyers fought "for me". OK, they fought for a LOT of people, but I was one of them. What they SHOULD have gotten me, and COULD have gotten me, was about $27500. And that is just the DOLLAR loss, NOTHING else! What they ended up "getting me", was -$4212! Yep, through a little loophole they put in the bankruptcy code, they charged me enough to wipe out the MEAGER settlements, totalling $300 which SHOULD have been $5500, AND come up with a CHARGE! I PAID because someone ELSE owed ME money, and THEY went bankrupt! INCREDIBLE! And I wasn't the ONLY one ripped off through that.

                          Of course, I have been subjected to medical mal practice too. With some of it they are lucky I am not litigious(I had three sets of operations and had a theory tracing them back to ANOTHER thing I consider mal practice. That was recently confirmed. It turns out I am not the only one. One former surgeon general basically specialized in cleaning up this interesting set of coincidences.), and was too young to sue anyway. As for my recent dissection? I found something they hid from me for about 6 YEARS! I found out only monday, last week! It turns out it was, and is, FAR worse than I was told. Maybe they figure that disrupting the operation and telling my 75yo father, on the other side of the continent, matter of factly about it constitutes informing ME. I only found out about THAT last thursday when talking with my father about this. I wouldn't even know if not for the fact that they tried to sneak THREE CT scans past me. All were done at the same time, so I had to see the final bill, and they recently changed the way they list it. When I think of all that I was never told, etc... it is a wonder I am still alive. EVEN though they INTENTIONALLY hid this from me, they put the owness on ME to A YEAR LATER get the info from my doctor. Obviously it is on the report somewhere, but NOT in the writeup the surgeons hospital gave me, when I demanded it! You really have to wonder what else they didn't bother to tell me.

                          Steve
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                        Steve,
                        In a lawsuit somebody always wins.

                        Usually the winners are the lawyers................
                        THAT'S what I mean! 8-(
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

                  Being great and different is against the rules of the establishment.
                  But the establishment isn't deliberate. Don't you know that? It's like the laws of physics. Nobody got to make them. They're just the rules.

                  The rules of the establishment are the result of human action, but not human intent.

                  They are what they are because we are what we are.

                  So unless you propose that we should change human nature and alter the very fabric of world culture, the rules of the establishment are not negotiable.
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                  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
                    Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                    But the establishment isn't deliberate. Don't you know that? It's like the laws of physics. Nobody got to make them. They're just the rules.

                    The rules of the establishment are the result of human action, but not human intent.

                    They are what they are because we are what we are.

                    So unless you propose that we should change human nature and alter the very fabric of world culture, the rules of the establishment are not negotiable.
                    The establishment IS deliberate! Don't you know that?

                    Let's not talk about the law of physics.. there was an Orchestrator of those...

                    The rules of the establishment are designed by those in charge to treat the public, at large, like mushrooms: fed crap and kept in the dark.

                    The machine makes the rules for its own good; not for the sake of "the people". Small and simple people are far more easier to control than complex and big thinkers. Keep them small and we have no problems; otherwise, the machine may just lose its footing.

                    Warmly,

                    Brandi
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                    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

                      The rules of the establishment are designed by those in charge to treat the public, at large, like mushrooms: fed crap and kept in the dark.
                      The public at large ARE mushrooms. They like crap, and light is bad for them. So the establishment really has no choice.

                      Now, your daughter is clearly not a mushroom. But she's surrounded by them, so she has to live in conditions that are good for mushrooms.

                      Your wonderful idea is to open the windows, let in the sunlight, and throw steaks to everyone.

                      And the mushrooms will die.

                      That's why the establishment does things the way they do. They can't kill the mushrooms. They took an oath to protect those mushrooms. To look out for the best interest of those mushrooms.

                      And those of us who are not mushrooms need to respect the fact that we are still, most of the time, surrounded by mushrooms. You feed them crap, and you keep them in the dark, because it is good for them. Because if you tried to treat them like YOU want to be treated, they would die.

                      But go ahead, teach your daughter the ever-popular "screw you, Jack, I got mine" philosophy that has done so much good for the world over the millennia.

                      You can have success. You can have achievement. Nobody will stop you. (How can they? They're mushrooms.) But there's no need to rampage around stomping on the mushrooms on your way there. Move carefully. Watch your step.

                      Because mushrooms are useful. Otherwise, people like your daughter would have to scrub their own toilets and mow their own lawns, no matter how successful they were.
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                      • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
                        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


                        But go ahead, teach your daughter the ever-popular "screw you, Jack, I got mine" philosophy that has done so much good for the world over the millennia.
                        I don't subscribe to that philosophy, at all. I would never, ever, ever teach that to a child. I TRULY try to be concerned about others so much to the detriment of myself and my family, at times. And, I'm ok with that!

                        See, I don't think mushrooms are necessary... I mean, I love the way they taste and they are great on pizza... but, I don't think they are necessary for the machine.

                        Can you IMAGINE what things would be accomplished WITHOUT mushrooms??? The sky would, literally, be the limit!

                        Warmly,

                        Brandi
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                        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                          Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

                          Can you IMAGINE what things would be accomplished WITHOUT mushrooms???
                          And as long as we're dreaming, I'd like a pony.
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                          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                            And as long as we're dreaming, I'd like a pony.
                            Gee, what are ponies going for today? And I and my father would sometimes go and rent horses! Gee, they are out of business! WAAAAAAAA!

                            Today, horses haven't vanished from the Valley area--there is even some evidence that their numbers have begun to rise recently after years of gradual decline. But places to ride, keep and even rent horses are continuing to dwindle as rustic areas increasingly give way to housing tracts and business centers.

                            For example, the Pickwick stables in Burbank became Pickwick condominiums, with stalls only for condo owners' horses. And the Harry Warner Thoroughbred Farm turned into the bustling Warner Center in Woodland Hills.
                            We got our hourses at pickwick stables. I still remember shorty, called that because he was about 2" smaller than most of the others, and sargeant, who I guess was named that because he thought HE was the boss. He often tried to bite!

                            I never knew about Harry Warner, but lived near warner center.

                            Oh well, thanks for the little trip down memory lane.

                            Steve
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                      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
                        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                        The public at large ARE mushrooms. They like crap, and light is bad for them. So the establishment really has no choice.
                        Well, it's not a matter of choice, it's that schools are by and large designed to be mushroom-training grounds because that's what works best for the establishment.

                        But you knew that already.

                        The Business of Schooling -- American Education History Tour

                        Since bored people are the best consumers, school had to be a boring place, and since childish people are the easiest customers to convince, the manufacture of childishness, extended into adulthood, had to be the first priority of factory schools. Naturally, teachers and administrators weren't let in on this plan; they didn't need to be. If they didn't conform to instructions passed down from increasingly centralized school offices, they didn't last long.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            TIME AND PLACE..
            WOW, YOU'RE RIGHT! That sums it up! An entrepreneurial event is NOT the TIME, and a school is NOT the PLACE for such thinking. That sums it up nicely.

            You already said that people can get fairness at movies. Never mind that YOUR associated character might be eaten or something. Maybe I'll try to reconcile that later.

            Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Steven, there is no "worse." It isn't an achievement activity. Nobody is winning or losing. There is no such thing.

        It's like when you go to a movie with your friends. Who "wins" going to the movie? Nobody. The very concept is absurd, but you don't seem to grasp that. You're complaining that the school won't let a student "win," but the entire point is that you can't win. It's going to the movie. Nobody wins. Nobody should be trying to win. Anyone trying to win doesn't grasp the point of the activity.

        And that isn't because going to the movies is socialist, either. That's a stupid concept.
        MOST males, when they watch a sport seem to feel they are REALLY one of a team. If a team wins, they may be as ECSTATIC as if THEY just did it and won MILLIONS of dollars. They seem to see it as a vicarious challenge that somee even DIE over, LITERALLY! Well, I go and it would be PURELY as a spectator! I might as well be watching an old movie with robots on two obviously fake and unassociated teams.

        Most movies DO have a winner and a loser at some point. Whether a chickflick, comedy, drama, horror, or a cartoon, someone usually WINS in some way shape or form. HECK, that is EVEN true with most documentaries, and LIFE! We can't even survive without the spoils of some competition. EVEN if we were to eat peanuts. GRANTED they don't fight back, but they tried to procreate, and we literally ate the fruit of their labor.

        And I am not saying that students should try to win, actually. I am saying they should try to COMPETE. They should try to IMPROVE. That SHOULD be a reason for school, school activities, and entrepreneurship. I will EVEN go farther that EVERYONE that agrees with what you have said here, YOU INCLUDED, is a HYPOCRITE if they try to run a business, or do well at their job. The necessary ideals just run counter to all you have said.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Kurt,
    I'm surprised Steve got it and you didn't.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Kurt,
      I'm surprised Steve got it and you didn't.
      Gee, what is THAT supposed to mean? 8-(
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      And SHE was one of the "lucky" ones! Technically, several lawyers fought "for me". OK, they fought for a LOT of people, but I was one of them. What they SHOULD have gotten me, and COULD have gotten me, was about $27500. And that is just the DOLLAR loss, NOTHING else! What they ended up "getting me", was -$4212! Yep, through a little loophole they put in the bankruptcy code, they charged me enough to wipe out the MEAGER settlements, totalling $300 which SHOULD have been $5500, AND come up with a CHARGE! I PAID because someone ELSE owed ME money, and THEY went bankrupt! INCREDIBLE! And I wasn't the ONLY one ripped off through that.

      Steve
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Kurt,
      I'm surprised Steve got it and you didn't.
      Steve,

      I resent your use of the word "lucky". That's BS in my example no matter the context. And it's sad you would even bring up your "case" under the circumstances.

      Kim,

      Even the lawyers didn't win. They put in a lot of work over 5+ years and because of legal limits, they certainly didn't get rich from the case. Everybody lost.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Kurt,

    I put lucky in quotes. It is rare that anyone is TRULY lucky. And I certainly DON'T mean to belittle what happened to your cousin. That IS bad. And it is sad that there is such a MINOR tolerance for failure. By that, I mean that another minute could have made your cousins mal practice problems seem insignificant. Of course, she didn't have that time, and I am sincerely sorry for that. And I certainly wouldn't want to have traded places with her.

    I simply meant that a lot of suits don't even net the person that much. In most cases, the lawyer gets a "healthy" percentage right off the top. They TRY to get a lot more money, but will try to balance that with effort, etc... They may even have a minimum. still, if you cousin "won" $5million, and they took fourty percent, she only ended up with 3 million, and they did get a lot for any real time they put in.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Kurt,
    I understand what your saying, but surely you could tell I was being sarcastic and making a generalization?
    Certainly there ARE some lawyers that are ethical and do real work,but there are,imo, a lot more that use the system to screw us.

    I was forced into a class action suit.This company had stolen almost 3k from me, and different large amounts from people all across the USA. If I mentioned the name I am sure you would know who I was talking about.
    The lawyers won a multimillion dollar clas action siut.They got to keep a large percentage of the judgement for their "work".

    Out of the 3k I lost, I got a check for 12 bucks.

    Edit: Steve, looks like we posted at almost the same time, but I see we are on the same page.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I would love to see schools become private enterprises. I chose not to have children - yet I am paying for everyone's nonetheless. You want kids why should I have to support them? Yep - I don't like the socialism either. Half of the parents I've seen shouldn't have been parents and I would much rather have seen MY funding spent slapping them on a table and sterilizing them then spent to subsidize their pretenses of actually raising their children.

    My father was a school administrator.......back in the days when schools were allowed to teach kids. So here is a view of schooling that hasn't seemed to be considered yet.

    There are some absolutely disgraceful practices that some school systems allow - even drugging children. Government policies are creating absolutely Orwellian scenarios in some school systems. These schools need people of their community to bring them down - total recall of all officials. It's been done. I did it myself back in the late 70's when I found a school system strip searching little girls for cigarettes.

    But there are some limitations to schools - even the best - that those who feel the need to be parents should get a clue to. After all - YOU wanted kids, you are the one with the responsibility to do something for them besides bitch at schools that their babysitting skills aren't up to par with your expectations.

    There is not enough money for small class sizes and much personalized attention. Small schools will often render a bit more personalized attention from teachers, but with 30 kids to a class - exactly how much is that teacher realistically going to do with your kid? Classes and activities have to be tailored to suit the majority. There are just realistically not the funds for the normal classroom to provide tailor made projects and education for the exceptional of either level.

    That's where the PARENTS who wanted to have kids come into the mix. There are responsibilities to parenthood beyond shucking your kid off to the school bus every day. The teacher can provide the basis for your kid to learn to read -- but YOU the parent who wanted to have the kids is responsible to follow up on those lessons and make sure your kid is practicing and doing what is necessary to absorb the material dealt out to them. If your kid is bored because it's too easy or unable to perform at the level of the rest of the class it is up to YOU - the person that wanted to have the kid -- to make sure that their needs are met otherwise. Sometimes you will be fortunate enough to be in a lucrative system that has special programs for special needs. If the kid's just too bright, bringing it to the school system's attention might result in testing that will reveal an ability to learn at advanced level and the kid can be moved up a grade. If the kid can't achieve there might be special ed programs or the kid can be put into a lower grade level.

    The point is....if the kid isn't getting what s/he needs in school -- maybe, just maybe -- what is missing is the parents who understand that they have a responsibility to the KID that they wanted to have -- beyond shelling him off to the school and expecting a well rounded child to just miraculously develop FOR them.

    If you are expecting that just because there are schools that you don't need to work with your own child to develop their intellect, then you should have had an abortion or learned to abstain from sex in the first place. We sure don't need any more little neglected idiots sucking up everyone's money that decided not to have kids because they didn't feel like assuming the RESPONSIBILITIES OF PARENTING.

    Perhaps the school function isn't all that one would hope it could be. That's a good lesson for the GOOD parent to teach the kid. "Hey Look Suzy/Bobby - this is what they want for this project so lets bake some freaking cupcakes for them...and while we're eating the ones we're not gonna give them to sell, we can work on something a little more advanced and creative -- how'd ya like to do that WITH Mom/Dad?

    When I see kids that can't do basic math, can't read, kids that are mass consumers with no clues, or kids that have no clue of politics other than the agenda some smooth Administrator is getting kickbacks for pushing -- I don't think "what the hell is wrong with our schools" I think - why the hell am I paying for other people's kids when THEY don't even want the RESPONSIBILITY of teaching all those babies that THEY WANTED TO HAVE.

    I want a freakin' refund. Period.
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    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I would love to see schools become private enterprises. I chose not to have children - yet I am paying for everyone's nonetheless. You want kids why should I have to support them? Yep - I don't like the socialism either. Half of the parents I've seen shouldn't have been parents and I would much rather have seen MY funding spent slapping them on a table and sterilizing them then spent to subsidize their pretenses of actually raising their children.
      I certainly must agree with you there!

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      My father was a school administrator.......back in the days when schools were allowed to teach kids.
      ALLOWED!?!? HECK, REQUIRED!

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      So here is a view of schooling that hasn't seemed to be considered yet.

      There are some absolutely disgraceful practices that some school systems allow - even drugging children. Government policies are creating absolutely Orwellian scenarios in some school systems. These schools need people of their community to bring them down - total recall of all officials. It's been done. I did it myself back in the late 70's when I found a school system strip searching little girls for cigarettes.
      That sounds like a lie, like MYTH, like you are a conspiracy nut, but I HAVE seen kids DRUGGED! WHY? Let me take their words and ideas and add in a little truth.... "They need to be on drugs because they won't listen to our propaganda!"! Some go from normal to practically ZOMBIES!

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      But there are some limitations to schools - even the best - that those who feel the need to be parents should get a clue to. After all - YOU wanted kids, you are the one with the responsibility to do something for them besides bitch at schools that their babysitting skills aren't up to par with your expectations.
      Here is where we part ways a bit. Some parents seem to CARE, and want the "teachers" to TEACH!

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      There is not enough money for small class sizes and much personalized attention.
      BULL! Every student COULD have 1 on 1 education at a LOWER cost with LESS hassle! HOW? Well the oddly named "programmed teaching" The old fashioned method like IBM used to teach languages which does NOT require a computer, etc... The student teaches him/her self and the teacher can help with harder things and help guide.

      ****detractors note, SCARY THINGS AHEAD, DO NOT READ FARTHER!****

      This not only means lower costs, less hassle, BUT...(Detractors, I WARNED YOU!) the better students may actually go AHEAD of the others! If they want, they may even HELP!

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Small schools will often render a bit more personalized attention from teachers, but with 30 kids to a class - exactly how much is that teacher realistically going to do with your kid? Classes and activities have to be tailored to suit the majority. There are just realistically not the funds for the normal classroom to provide tailor made projects and education for the exceptional of either level.
      Like I said, not exactly true.

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      That's where the PARENTS who wanted to have kids come into the mix. There are responsibilities to parenthood beyond shucking your kid off to the school bus every day. The teacher can provide the basis for your kid to learn to read -- but YOU the parent who wanted to have the kids is responsible to follow up on those lessons and make sure your kid is practicing and doing what is necessary to absorb the material dealt out to them. If your kid is bored because it's too easy or unable to perform at the level of the rest of the class it is up to YOU - the person that wanted to have the kid -- to make sure that their needs are met otherwise. Sometimes you will be fortunate enough to be in a lucrative system that has special programs for special needs. If the kid's just too bright, bringing it to the school system's attention might result in testing that will reveal an ability to learn at advanced level and the kid can be moved up a grade. If the kid can't achieve there might be special ed programs or the kid can be put into a lower grade level.
      I like most of what you said, but frankly kids should be able to read BEFORE the first grade.

      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      When I see kids that can't do basic math, can't read, kids that are mass consumers with no clues, or kids that have no clue of politics other than the agenda some smooth Administrator is getting kickbacks for pushing -- I don't think "what the hell is wrong with our schools" I think - why the hell am I paying for other people's kids when THEY don't even want the RESPONSIBILITY of teaching all those babies that THEY WANTED TO HAVE.

      I want a freakin' refund. Period.
      Shortened ONLY for brevity. I actually liked it. YOU'RE RIGHT! HECK, I want a refund ALSO!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
    Sal,

    I think it pretty much goes without saying that parents are responsible for their own children. That's pretty basic stuff. I really didn't realize that was actually in question?

    I'm going to assume this was directed at "you, in general" and not me, specifically because, it should be obvious that I certainly don't feel this way:

    "If you are expecting that just because there are schools that you don't need to work with your own child to develop their intellect, then you should have had an abortion or learned to abstain from sex in the first place. We sure don't need any more little neglected idiots sucking up everyone's money that decided not to have kids because they didn't feel like assuming the RESPONSIBILITIES OF PARENTING."

    Once a child walks through the doors of the school building, a parent really doesn't have a whole lot of input in the process- unless you cause a big stink. (It goes without saying I've caused my share of stinks.)

    If 1/2 of the parents you have seen HONESTLY aren't worth their salt as parents, you either really aren't around a lot of parents with children or you need to find some new friends.

    Some food for thought: I thought I was the best parent God ever created ... until I had my own.

    Warmly,

    Brandi
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Brandi,

    Some liberals seem to think ALL conservatives sound like, and therefore must listen INTENTLY to, rush limbaugh. It is just an odd truth. Funny how they never seem to consider that weird after hearing that I have listened to THIS GUY Bill Press - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia so much.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Brandi,

      Some liberals seem to think ALL conservatives sound like, and therefore must listen INTENTLY to, rush limbaugh. It is just an odd truth. Funny how they never seem to consider that weird after hearing that I have listened to THIS GUY Bill Press - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia so much.

      Steve
      I think it's because they think we couldn't possibly all draw the same conclusions on a matter without being told what to think.

      They think in order to arrive at the same conclusions, we have to be like them: a mushroom.

      Warmly,

      Brandi
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I like most of what you said, but frankly kids should be able to read BEFORE the first grade.
    I've got no argument with that one. My sister and I were both reading before we got into school. Funny - my PARENTS...the people that wanted to have us - taught us to do that.

    And as far as being able to teach every child more cheaply........well, ya know -- there are countries that were able to do that. I know our schools suck. And I know there are better ways. If I had kids, I'd be fighting for a school system that practiced them.......but......
    I don't have kids. I didn't want kids. I don't feel like raising other people's kids. Schools are an issue that I feel I shouldn't need to tend to. I do tend to public issues that strike me as needing tending to........that isn't the one. I expect parents of kids in school to do that one. I expect parents with kids in school to do other things with their kids, too - like you are with your kid's computer education. I don't agree with a lot of things you hold to be self-evident......but I back you up on your efforts to produce a motivated, self sufficient human being. You are earning your right to the Kids that you wanted to have. Kudos.

    I'm going to say this and it's going to create an earthquake that will make the one in Chile seem mild. But I think people should have to have parenting classes to be allowed to breed or adopt. You don't know how many times I've seen people gloating over how smart their kids are when they are all but drooling stupid. I'm sorry but being able to count to 10 and recognize 6 colors by the age of four is not brilliance. If people don't get a life to exactly how far behind kids at that level are, those kids are going to have a very dim future. I have also heard parents this incredibly incognizant of normal development rattle about home schooling. Greaaaat. I would like to see that parents that are going to home school would at least have to prove they can recognize environmental retardation, lol.

    Perhaps there are no easy answers - and when good ones are found, they should be fought for by the parents of the youth whose lives depend on them. No matter what systems are derived there will be those that don't fit and will need special attention. All I expect is that people should stop having scads of kids and trying to dump everything on the school systems while completely neglecting their duties to the kids THEY wanted to have. This society would have many fewer problems if people would stop having kids they weren't prepared to take the time and effort to raise accordingly.
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  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
    Hey sal...

    In order to adopt.. you have to go through a bunch of crap, boatloads of checks, parenting classes... in order to breed you simply have to have sex.

    And, I always wanted to have 12 children. Between the two of us, we have 10. 5 live with us. 5 do not. 10 we support.

    My kids are the reason I breathe, the reason I fight so hard and the reason I love life soo much!!!!!!!!!!!! I love to be with them, I hate it when we are apart and my daughters tell me that they want to live with me forever...ha. I told them their husbands might not like that too much... but that maybe we can buy a huge stretch of land and each build our own house on it... and their kids can run over to my house any time they like-- ha!

    So much needs to be changed in our system.. and so many people give up because they say it's not worth it or that one person can't change things. One person can do a lot-- I'm sure you've witnessed that in your work throughout life.

    Warmly,

    Brandi
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by digidoodles View Post

      Hey sal...

      In order to adopt.. you have to go through a bunch of crap, boatloads of checks, parenting classes... in order to breed you simply have to have sex.

      And, I always wanted to have 12 children. Between the two of us, we have 10. 5 live with us. 5 do not. 10 we support.

      My kids are the reason I breathe, the reason I fight so hard and the reason I love life soo much!!!!!!!!!!!! I love to be with them, I hate it when we are apart and my daughters tell me that they want to live with me forever...ha. I told them their husbands might not like that too much... but that maybe we can buy a huge stretch of land and each build our own house on it... and their kids can run over to my house any time they like-- ha!

      So much needs to be changed in our system.. and so many people give up because they say it's not worth it or that one person can't change things. One person can do a lot-- I'm sure you've witnessed that in your work throughout life.

      Warmly,

      Brandi
      Oops - that was Steve that answered my post. Thought it was you. Seems you figured that out just fine though.l

      Having to pass tests to adopt is a good thing. Perhaps that is why we see a parent interested in their children's lives and well being. At least when people adopt we know they are really ready and wanting to parent. I can't say that goes for many who have their own.

      Maybe we could start by having any woman who thinks she wants a kid take care of an orphan or a foster kid for a month or two so they can understand the realities before they have their own kids it would put a damper on the romanticized idealism of having babies. I wanted to have a couple of my own, but when my now ex was in the military I worked in the nursery on base and it changed my mind forever. I could have been a good mom.......but I wouldn't have enjoyed it the least bit. I think that had I not worked in that nursery I would have ended up with kids who by the time they were thirteen would have been running the malls in loin cloths with spears in their hands.

      Some people are not meant to be parents and it would really be a great help to everyone if those people would stop having kids. I thought we were supposed to be mentally functional enough that we don't have to produce a human life to know how to be valuable people. I've never felt like less of a woman because I didn't reproduce.

      I know one thing for a fact though even though I didn't reproduce. If I had - my kids wouldn't be going near a public school system in America.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Sal -

        There's one thing those who don't have children don't realize. And those of us who have children didn't know it until after we had them.

        That is - you don't know how much those children mean to you until you have them - and you don't know what you will do until you raise them.

        I've never yet talked to a newly pregnant woman who didn't have very high goals for what her child would eat - and what they would do - and whether they would be allowed to watch TV or not - and how young they would be when they started learning numbers and alphabet - and (funniest one of all) - how they would behave.

        Then you start raising kids - and find they didn't read the same books. It's a big reality check for new parents. In the big picture, most parents only want their child to be safe and happy and be the best they can be. Everything else is window dressing.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Sal -

          There's one thing those who don't have children don't realize. And those of us who have children didn't know it until after we had them.

          That is - you don't know how much those children mean to you until you have them - and you don't know what you will do until you raise them.

          I've never yet talked to a newly pregnant woman who didn't have very high goals for what her child would eat - and what they would do - and whether they would be allowed to watch TV or not - and how young they would be when they started learning numbers and alphabet - and (funniest one of all) - how they would behave.

          Then you start raising kids - and find they didn't read the same books. It's a big reality check for new parents. In the big picture, most parents only want their child to be safe and happy and be the best they can be. Everything else is window dressing.

          kay
          Ha! Exactly.

          As I said, I thought I was the best parent God ever created... until I had my own. Ha!

          I hate to admit this, but hey, it's the truth... I thought I had ALL OF THE ANSWERS before adopting my children. I came home and I immediately felt like a bumbling idiot. Seriously, like a REALLY bad Three Stooges episode-- that is EXACTLY how I felt! I wondered what I had gotten myself into and, moreover, I wondered how I had lost all of that parenting wisdom I had before I left for overseas!! I mean, how could I know so much just 29 days before and suddenly be the most ignorant person on the planet?!?

          I'm still a bumbling idiot, feeling my way around for the right answers... and I've been home a bit over 10 years.

          I guess that's what being a parent is all about... trying to do the least possible damage with the most possible love... ha!

          Warmly,

          Brandi
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I thought I had ALL OF THE ANSWERS before
            ...and then you joined the club!

            I will never forget the absolute meltdown I had when I took my first son home from the hospital. I had been very ill so hadn't done more than hold him until we went home. I changed my first diaper, picked him up - and it fell off. I was convinced the baby could not survive my inexperience - but he did - all 6'3" of him!

            Before we get them - they aren't going to be exposed to silly tv. Three years later we are thankful for saturday morning cartoons!

            Our view of our child as a paragon of little person behavior goes out the window at age two.

            As a parent - you win a few and adjust your expectations about everything else.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I've never yet talked to a newly pregnant woman who didn't have very high goals for what her child would eat - and what they would do - and whether they would be allowed to watch TV or not - and how young they would be when they started learning numbers and alphabet - and (funniest one of all) - how they would behave.
          WOW, you're LUCKY! I have seen WAY too many that just DIDN'T CARE! And I HATE the mindset where a person starts talking about the pain they had having the kid, or how long they had to ...the kid.

          Let me tell you a "secret", folks. MOST, if not all, kids DON'T CARE! *I* for one, depressed, etc... never wanted to be here, never asked, etc.... so my mother saying such things is akin to saying that she went to great lengths to torture me.

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author digidoodles
    And, I don't do toilets.. my husband does that.

    That was the agreement

    Warmly,

    Brandi
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  • Profile picture of the author valerieSONORA
    Maybe the requirements of adopting children should apply to everyone to have children. You have to go to classes, pass tests, pass home studies. Birth rate would go waaaay down, not that many would qualify to have children. I woulda waited 10 years :p

    As for schools I'm with Steve on this one. Money's not the problem. Some of the best schools are ones with small budgets yet public schools that spend $9K per child per year can't get anywhere. And South Koreans test better than American students-but their budget is a small fraction. This isn't one of those throw money at it and goes away problems. Money's been thrown at the problem and it's still there.

    And digi, did you check the 3rd link? I love the way Jack Black dances

    I don't even know what this threads about anymore, think it's been all over :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    Really, the United States is a Plutocratic Republic and we choose our representatives in a Democratic fashion.

    The the day to day government operates close to a Socialist model.
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