Should Govt employees be laid off in this economy?

by dsimms
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I was looking at this panel discussion on Fox news today, it was very interesting, and they brought up a very good point; Since our private sector jobs is not doing that great (no jobs) that pay taxes, that pay govt employees, then why shouldnt our gov't lay off overpaid govt employees to save money? Why should postal workers get paid $50-$60k a year to deliver mail when you can find people for $10-$12/hr to do this. Why pay employees $25/hr to fill pot holes when you can find people to do this for $15/hr - its not like a lot of our govt employees are super educated or anything. These type of jobs can be done for a lot less with some training, so our govt employees get to enjoy higher then avg pay with very secure jobs because it is the govt...why should they get best of both worlds? and its our money that is paying these high salaries so they can have a secure life...Our govt needs to do something before we go broke paying huge govt salaries and even larger benefits that end up being larger then the actual employees salary, do you think that is right?

What do you guys think?
  • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
    Not sure about the U.S., but where I live those are all union jobs. Just tossing union workers out and replacing them with cheap labor ain't gonna happen.
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    • Profile picture of the author dsimms
      Originally Posted by Lawrh View Post

      Not sure about the U.S., but where I live those are all union jobs. Just tossing union workers out and replacing them with cheap labor ain't gonna happen.
      fair enough. I was in a "union" company...when the company went broke "that means they ran out of money" and let everyone go, do you think the "union" come to my rescue?

      union or not, in order to save your business, you have to let employees go...the US is going broke...The US is already past that mark...when the US files BK - no union will be able to
      do anything for any employee - if there is no money, there is no money...
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
    I think the numbers they think people are getting paid for those jobs are made up.
    A friend who works for the state of NY and I have been having a long discussion about this.
    He works in a parking garage, for 4 hours. he's in a booth and for 4 he does maintenance like cutting the grass in the simmer and plowing and salting in the winter. He makes around 12 an hour. Now each of his 15 bosses make at least 50,000 a year min.
    So granted there are some jobs that can be eliminated, but till they start cutting in management it's meaningless and not an attempt to save money.
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    • Profile picture of the author dsimms
      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

      I think the numbers they think people are getting paid for those jobs are made up.
      A friend who works for the state of NY and I have been having a long discussion about this.
      He works in a parking garage, for 4 hours. he's in a booth and for 4 he does maintenance like cutting the grass in the simmer and plowing and salting in the winter. He makes around 12 an hour. Now each of his 15 bosses make at least 50,000 a year min.
      So granted there are some jobs that can be eliminated, but till they start cutting in management it's meaningless and not an attempt to save money.
      at $12/hr that sounds like he is working for a contractor, not the govt...I know plow trucks in MN make far more then that in the winter, and thats my point, why pay a driver to plow snow for $20/25hr? thats crazy!
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by dsimms View Post

        at $12/hr that sounds like he is working for a contractor, not the govt...I know plow trucks in MN make far more then that in the winter, and thats my point, why pay a driver to plow snow for $20/25hr? thats crazy!
        If he worked for the dept. of transportation which plows the road he would make more.
        $20/25 an hour to plow snow is not crazy. I've plowed for private companies for 25 years or so. Unless you have done it you wouldn't understand just how hard it really is.
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        • Profile picture of the author dsimms
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          If he worked for the dept. of transportation which plows the road he would make more.
          $20/25 an hour to plow snow is not crazy. I've plowed for private companies for 25 years or so. Unless you have done it you wouldn't understand just how hard it really is.
          math is hard.

          I drove a truck for 15 years, so do not lecture me about this or that being hard. I am just saying govt salaries are just simply overpaid just because its our govt, hard or not hard if it was just another employer it would be just be avg pay, not some super hyped up paycheck plus great overpaid benefits...Why should our govt employees get paid 3-5 times higher for their jobs then the private sector for the same type of job? So this ends up being the same job in the private sector that would just make $12-$15hr rather then govt $20-25/hr
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by dsimms View Post

            math is hard.

            I drove a truck for 15 years, so do not lecture me about this or that being hard. I am just saying govt salaries are just simply overpaid just because its our govt, hard or not hard if it was just another employer it would be just be avg pay, not some super hyped up paycheck plus great overpaid benefits...Why should our govt employees get paid 3-5 times higher for their jobs then the private sector for the same type of job? So this ends up being the same job in the private sector that would just make $12-$15hr rather then govt $20-25/hr
            First I wasn't lecturing you, second just driving a truck is a hell of a lot easier then running a plow truck, I've done both.
            Also when I plow I make around $20/25 an hour depending on which company I work for.
            Show me the facts that state govt. employees make 3-5 times more for the same job.
            Like I said it's the management and appointed that need trimming. They are the ones raking in the doe, not the regular employees.
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            • Profile picture of the author dsimms
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              First I wasn't lecturing you, second just driving a truck is a hell of a lot easier then running a plow truck, I've done both.
              Also when I plow I make around $20/25 an hour depending on which company I work for.
              Show me the facts that state govt. employees make 3-5 times more for the same job.
              Like I said it's the management and appointed that need trimming. They are the ones raking in the doe, not the regular employees.
              I think you undersand my point...govt employees are paid more with better benefits (which cost taxpayers) management/emoloyee alike...If they need to start with management, then fine, but something needs to be done, this country can not continue down the path it is going..."pretending to have money" when the govt really does not, and i bet you that money press at the mint is constantly spinning, creating fake money that wont last.

              no business is to big to fail, not even our great US government.
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by dsimms View Post

                "It is not so much a case of overpaid workers. It is actually a case of AMERICAN jobs. If it was a purely financial decision a foreign company could provide the services with far greater efficiency (lower salaries) but the money would then be leaked out of the country."

                I guess it really depends how you look at this, and the actual value that the govt employee really provides to earn his/her paycheck..I am not saying that all govt jobs or bad or overpaid, but I would bet most are...

                for example:

                I was watching news 1-2 months ago about how the news crew caught Dept of MN employees loafing around on the job at the expense of tax dollars ($24/hr) and they were doing just that...nothing, rather then doing what we pay them to do, they were caught at the store sipping coffee most of the day before even doing 1-2 hours of work...and none of them got fired for doing wrong...govt secure job no doubt...if it was any other employer then the govt, then they would have been fired for stealing, or wasting business resources, riding the clock, or whatever, they would have been fired, gone!

                We know how our govt loves to waste money! There is no doubt that they waste money on govt jobs also...raise taxes, raise gas, roads still not fixed, wasteful spending, pay higher salaries for employees to loaf, or provide little value, then raise more taxes, high cig taxes, higher beer taxes, nothing still fixed in american, toll taxes, more gas taxes, roads still falling apart, raise more taxes by starting up Obama healthcare, raise more taxes to pay for heathcare even through we were promised taxes would not, in the end obama healhcare fails, govt files BK.

                The govt needs to cut wasteful spending on crap, needs to cut jobs that are not really needed, they just need to cutback like any other business would need to do in order to just to continue....If any business would be ran like our govt, they would have filed for BK a long time ago, over and over...our govt is not a business plan or good model at all...its a good model for filing BK.
                Originally Posted by dsimms View Post

                I think you undersand my point...govt employees are paid more with better benefits (which cost taxpayers) management/emoloyee alike...If they need to start with management, then fine, but something needs to be done, this country can not continue down the path it is going..."pretending to have money" when the govt really does not, and i bet you that money press at the mint is constantly spinning, creating fake money that wont last.

                no business is to big to fail, not even our great US government.
                You're right. At first it sounded like you where just talking about the little guys getting let go.
                I've had 2 jobs, one working for the county highway dept. and one working for the state dept. of health. Both where when I was very young and both where jobs 'given' to me. In both cases there was absolutely no reason for my job and I never should of gotten them.
                Those types of things have to stop on all levels.
                The dept of Mn. thing you mentioned goes on to much and in to many places. I blame some of that on the unions. State employees that belong to the state unions are well protected weather they deserve it or not. I know at least 48 states are better then NY when it comes to useless departments and employees. Like I said my friend has 15 bosses and he works in a fricken parking garage.
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                • Profile picture of the author dsimms
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  You're right. At first it sounded like you where just talking about the little guys getting let go.
                  I've had 2 jobs, one working for the county highway dept. and one working for the state dept. of health. Both where when I was very young and both where jobs 'given' to me. In both cases there was absolutely no reason for my job and I never should of gotten them.
                  Those types of things have to stop on all levels.
                  The dept of Mn. thing you mentioned goes on to much and in to many places. I blame some of that on the unions. State employees that belong to the state unions are well protected weather they deserve it or not. I know at least 48 states are better then NY when it comes to useless departments and employees. Like I said my friend has 15 bosses and he works in a fricken parking garage.
                  I was using the smaller exmployee as example ($25/hr) Even though it looks small, still it can be a huge expense, but you are right, management surely needs to be looked at also. Govt needs to either get rid of the position, consolidate, or scale down, we all know what they are doing at this time is not working...period!

                  Just like any business, when their is surely no more money left, no union will be able to help
                  any employees, by then, it will be far to late to even do anything then, and I think we all know that the govt will continue its bad habits regardless..

                  its really bad when you got debt that is going to roll over to your grandkids, and maybe their kids.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
    The U.S. just needs to repeal the Federal Reserve Act and ban fractional reserve banking. Once a country gives up control of their own currency they deserve what they get. Until the private sector (in all countries) is barred from creating money through debt the global economy will never improve.
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  • Profile picture of the author ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA View Post

      First of all it was on a Fox network so macro economics were probably ignored in the conversation completely.
      You must have channels mixed up. PLEASE!!!!! ENLIGHTEN US!

      Originally Posted by ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA View Post

      The western world is a commercially driven economy, our countries like keeping the money we have IN the country, so we (the people) spend it on 'stuff'.
      ******BULL*****!

      Originally Posted by ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA View Post

      A good way of doing this is having high taxes which you can then distribute to Gov employees, who buy food, gas, houses cars, commodities etc in YOUR country.
      OH, OK! So the ONLY ones that can pay taxes are GOVERNMENT WORKERS and ALL OTHER workers do NOTHING and BUY NOTHING! TWO QUESTIONS! WHERE does their salary come from? Remember, you CAN'T say the government or taxes since the government would be a closed loop and taxes can't be both paid and received by them. AND, WHERE are MY taxes going? Where am I getting this money? BTW California government offices have written ads that practically DEMANDED only chinese and spanish nationals!

      Originally Posted by ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA View Post

      ALSO the public sector is one of the biggest controlling factors the gov has on controlling inflation
      YEP! They pay more which means they must get more taxes which means people must pay
      more which means they must make more which means MORE INFLATION!!!!!!

      Originally Posted by ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA View Post

      , which they aim to increase year on year, they do this by paying gov employees more and more every year. Also the money they pay to their own gov employees, a large percentage of it is actually paid straight back to the treasury in the means of employment tax etc. It is massively complicated, but basically it is a controlling fiscal measure reducing the rate of money leaving the USA, which IS happening.
      YEP, the government NEVER outsources! So what penname do you write those novels under?

      Originally Posted by ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA View Post

      It is not so much a case of overpaid workers. It is actually a case of AMERICAN jobs. If it was a purely financial decision a foreign company could provide the services with far greater efficiency (lower salaries) but the money would then be leaked out of the country.
      ACTUALLY, most government jobs lay dormant(collecting their pay) while CONTRACTORS do the work! I know some big projects in california were done that way, projects in louisiana were(I worked on some!!!!!), projects in massachusetts were, ones in NEW YORK(AGAIN, I worked on some), some for NASA(I almost worked on one), the PENTAGON, US ARMY, POST OFFICE, NAVY! BTW I know FOR A FACT that some of these projects, probably ALL, used H1B, offshore, and just plane FOREIGN help.

      So, do you make a lot writing that fiction!?!?

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA View Post

          Calm down there sparky.

          It is not my place to explain 12 years of macro economics to you and neither would you listen. From your post it would seem like you have become disenfranchised with your government and a little light racist
          OK, THIS I have GOT to hear! HOW is that RACIST!?!?!?!?

          , it may come as a surprise that your personal tax liability is not the US governments main income source, corporations are. Can you understand how this is NOT a closed tax system? And how if they pay people in their own country how a large percentage of the money (which is on loan and basically does not exist) comes back as tax's. Both as personal tax liability and through consumer spending. The recent move to outsource work is a more complicated system to achieve exactly the same result with more subtle and efficient tactics.
          Corporations are NOT the government, and I was talking about government vs. NON government. Race NEVER came into the picture. I felt the SAME way under EVERY president. It just keeps getting worse. EVERY president said they would make it better, but it ALWAYS gets worse. So AGAIN, HOW did you read RACE into anything?

          If you cant understand the need for a country, particularly the USA to protect its economy from loosing competitive advantage over its neighbors and employing people who would otherwise either be unemployed or employed by outside companies (of the USA) you will most definitely not understand why a capitalist country needs constant inflation. Hint hint the recession.
          AGAIN, I said the government is working ****AGAINST**** the country. I DO recognize the need to protect the economy, but they DON'T!

          I will not comment on the political afflictions of the Fox network but outside the USA it is a joke. If you know what demographics are take a look at Fox's target market, if you cant be bothered I will summarize for you, it is the illiterate and poorly educated. Ever noticed the lack of factual information? Or the way the news is delivered with single syllable short sentences. The USA is not the land of the free, it is the land of the subtly influenced. Which FYI I am in favor of.
          OH, I know what its detractors say. Single syllable sentences? I could understand YES and NO, but I would like to see a conversation, or something taking more than a second and/or meaning ANYTHING that uses only one syllable sentences. That would be QUITE a trick!

          Then again, I heard a speech one time by one very famous guy that seemed to be just ah and um and said NOTHING, some say the TP must have been off. Everyone STILL clapped, go figure! But it is likely NONE of them watched fox.

          Instead of wasting my time by replying I suggest you apply for a passport, in the time it takes you to get one from your government employed multilingual university educated foreign countrymen, turn off Fox and read a book.
          Great comeback!(sarc)

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author dsimms
    "It is not so much a case of overpaid workers. It is actually a case of AMERICAN jobs. If it was a purely financial decision a foreign company could provide the services with far greater efficiency (lower salaries) but the money would then be leaked out of the country."

    I guess it really depends how you look at this, and the actual value that the govt employee really provides to earn his/her paycheck..I am not saying that all govt jobs or bad or overpaid, but I would bet most are...

    for example:

    I was watching news 1-2 months ago about how the news crew caught Dept of MN employees loafing around on the job at the expense of tax dollars ($24/hr) and they were doing just that...nothing, rather then doing what we pay them to do, they were caught at the store sipping coffee most of the day before even doing 1-2 hours of work...and none of them got fired for doing wrong...govt secure job no doubt...if it was any other employer then the govt, then they would have been fired for stealing, or wasting business resources, riding the clock, or whatever, they would have been fired, gone!

    We know how our govt loves to waste money! There is no doubt that they waste money on govt jobs also...raise taxes, raise gas, roads still not fixed, wasteful spending, pay higher salaries for employees to loaf, or provide little value, then raise more taxes, high cig taxes, higher beer taxes, nothing still fixed in american, toll taxes, more gas taxes, roads still falling apart, raise more taxes by starting up Obama healthcare, raise more taxes to pay for heathcare even through we were promised taxes would not, in the end obama healhcare fails, govt files BK.

    The govt needs to cut wasteful spending on crap, needs to cut jobs that are not really needed, they just need to cutback like any other business would need to do in order to just to continue....If any business would be ran like our govt, they would have filed for BK a long time ago, over and over...our govt is not a business plan or good model at all...its a good model for filing BK.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by dsimms View Post

      I guess it really depends how you look at this
      Yeah, it really does.

      You say "let's eliminate overpaid jobs," and all I hear is "let's fire a bunch of people for no good reason at all, then replace them with cheaper people."

      I like to defer to my good friend Wil on this one.

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      • Profile picture of the author dsimms
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Yeah, it really does.

        You say "let's eliminate overpaid jobs," and all I hear is "let's fire a bunch of people for no good reason at all, then replace them with cheaper people."

        I like to defer to my good friend Wil on this one.
        Why not? my wife was recently laid off for this very reason...her boss stated several times you are overpaid...was she compared to her counter parts? yes, but she is damn good at her job, and the company hired her at that rate, my wife did nothing wrong, she was fired for no real reason other then to cut expenses...was this a smart move by the company, yes and no...yes, by getting rid of her, they are saving money, no, they let go their best employee that actually made them money...

        so if private business is doing this to save money, then
        why not the government? Why should they be any different?
        why should they be safe and secure in their nice paying
        jobs when we are not, and we are not protected the same....

        private sector jobs are crashing, so why should govt paid
        jobs be the same, and be a strain on the taxpayers?
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        • Profile picture of the author ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA
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          • Profile picture of the author dsimms
            Originally Posted by ADVERTISINGGUERRILLA View Post

            Sorry to hear that dsimms, that sucks.

            They will miss her when things pick up again, I hope she gets the opportunity to tell them where to put their job when they try to re hire her. Which is exactly what happened to my friend, he already got a new job and took great pleasure in going back to his old office, into his boss to tell him personally. I can tell you he was waiting every day to tell him and he though it was Christmas when he got the offer letter.
            Thank-You

            Old door closes, new door opens...

            She has an interview next week for a VP position...

            you are right, when things go wrong for them, then they will wonder
            why they are failing again, then they will wonder why they let their
            best employee go..too late now, she got released from her no-compete
            contract, and we are looking forward, not backward...

            company lets their best employee go, but keeps two so-so managers that really do not know their jobs at $50-$70k/yr - they complain lot, they really seem confused on their manager positions, they always try to pass the buck to someone else so they do not have to do the work, when employees come to them, most of the time they can not help them, they are refered to someone else, they never worked weekends, they never strive to be all that they can be, and my wife always worked weekends when she had too, if you are a manager, then it is your responsibility to do what needs to be done for your job.

            and to think the company kept the so-so managers, and let their best go...

            I think in the end, these so-so employees will be let go also...I think
            my wife was let go because of her accused high salary that her
            boss made comments about, get rid of what costs us more now, deal with the so-so employees later on...this way, save what we can now.

            so why should company or govt keep so-so employees around?
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            • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
              So what is "overpaid" and who determines that?

              In most conversations, it seems "overpaid" means someone's making more money than the person speaking is making. And that person's solution always seems to be to try and drag the "overpaid" person down to their level.

              I wonder why these people don't work on improving their own situation instead of resenting people who are making more than them.
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              • Profile picture of the author dsimms
                Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

                So what is "overpaid" and who determines that?

                In most conversations, it seems "overpaid" means someone's making more money than the person speaking is making. And that person's solution always seems to be to try and drag the "overpaid" person down to their level.

                I wonder why these people don't work on improving their own situation instead of resenting people who are making more than them.
                I am speaking about similar type jobs between private company and government..for example..dirt company pays me $10/hr (no benefits) to shovel dirt, state pays $24/hr + benefits to shovel asfault into potholes, which any no brainer monkey can do, and when employee retires, they get just as much on govt retirement then they did when they were
                actually working on the job.

                this is not about resenting...this is about govt spending on
                similar type of jobs that avg joe can do for less. If the govt keeps
                doing business the same ole way, something will give at some point,
                and it will not be for the better...and this is not just about
                govt employees, its about wasteful spending our govt does, and
                our govt is one of the largest employers in the world.

                Read a book? What! Fox news is much more entertaining...
                They have it all, serial killers, murder, rape, oil disasters, countries
                going BK, US going BK, and much more...if you ever want to
                catch the latest disaster, turn on CNN
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  The biggest problem I see is the huge growth in number of govt civilian employees...and the increase in wages for them during the worst recession in decades.

                  From the Washington Times on Feb 2 -

                  From 1981 through 2008, the civilian work force remained at about 1.1 million to 1.2 million, with a low of 1.07 million in 1986 and a high of more than 1.2 million in 1993 and in 2008.



                  In 2009, the number jumped to 1.28 million.
                  Including both the civilian and defense sectors, the federal government will employ 2.15 million people in 2010 and 2.11 million in 2011, excluding Postal Service workers.
                  For 27 years the number of govt workers was stable at 1.2 million.

                  From 2008 to 2010 that number more than doubled!!!....and this is during the worst recession we've had since the 30s.

                  If you want to really start steaming - read this article -
                  For feds, more get 6-figure salaries - USATODAY.com

                  The highest-paid federal employees are doing best of all on salary increases. Defense Department civilian employees earning $150,000 or more increased from 1,868 in December 2007 to 10,100 in June 2009, the most recent figure available.



                  When the recession started, the Transportation Department had only one person earning a salary of $170,000 or more. Eighteen months later, 1,690 employees had salaries above $170,000.
                  And the economists are asking "how did the national debt reach $13 trillion so fast?" (It was 9 trillion in 2008).
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post

                So what is "overpaid" and who determines that?

                In most conversations, it seems "overpaid" means someone's making more money than the person speaking is making. And that person's solution always seems to be to try and drag the "overpaid" person down to their level.

                I wonder why these people don't work on improving their own situation instead of resenting people who are making more than them.
                Well, happily I make more than most of them. But if a caltrans worker just talks, eats doughnuts, and drinks coffee all day, and gets even $10,000(They actually get a lot more than that) then it is TOO MUCH! And look at the DMV workers in CA! Did you know it is AGAINST THE LAW to yell at, swear at, or insult them? OK, I have never thought to do that. I generally DON'T yell(Yeah, I know, nobody here thinks that is true), don't swear, and I don't see any reason to insult them to their face. It certainly won't help anything. But you KNOW there is a BIG problem when they make it against the law and put up postings indicating it! Frankly, they are HIGHLY inefficient, often lazy, accepted, and still may accept, bribes, and STILL make a lot.

                But HEY, does your statement mean that if we were all millionares that we should be ok with all government employees making a million dollars?

                If I made 10 billion USD every year, I would STILL be upset with some assistant gofor for a minor official making even $5000. They shouldn't be needed.

                And if we move to NON government jobs, let's talk union. Like a flight attendant that does almost nothing but a silly demo of 60+ year old technology, and gets paid over $20K to start. And THEY are the lowest paid ones, at least on the flight. I forget how high their pay goes but, as I recall, it can be pretty high. And they keep getting raises all the time. The airlines are all bankrupt. HECK, delta CLAIMED they were the largest but, after buying northwest, they started cutting back a LOT! Prices have gone up, flights and workers have gone down. They even moved to smaller planes. And look at the car companies, after paying guys like $50K/year to turn two screws. Even the "strong" ONE has cut back. Right now they are announcing what they are doing to get rid of the mercury brand!

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author dsimms
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  Well, happily I make more than most of them. But if a caltrans worker just talks, eats doughnuts, and drinks coffee all day, and gets even $10,000(They actually get a lot more than that) then it is TOO MUCH! And look at the DMV workers in CA! Did you know it is AGAINST THE LAW to yell at, swear at, or insult them? OK, I have never thought to do that. I generally DON'T yell(Yeah, I know, nobody here thinks that is true), don't swear, and I don't see any reason to insult them to their face. It certainly won't help anything. But you KNOW there is a BIG problem when they make it against the law and put up postings indicating it! Frankly, they are HIGHLY inefficient, often lazy, accepted, and still may accept, bribes, and STILL make a lot.

                  But HEY, does your statement mean that if we were all millionares that we should be ok with all government employees making a million dollars?

                  If I made 10 billion USD every year, I would STILL be upset with some assistant gofor for a minor official making even $5000. They shouldn't be needed.

                  Steve
                  Other then salary and benefits. I think you just
                  mentioned the perks of their jobs, inefficent, lazy,
                  bribes...this is stuff they list on their resume, did
                  you leave anything out...

                  I do not hate our wonderful govt, but I have no love on
                  how they conduct business with taxpayers money. If you could find
                  a full list on the dumb-crap the govt spends money on, then it
                  would probably just blow your mind, they do not want you to
                  know everything, because they know a lot of it is wasteful spending.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
    Originally Posted by dsimms View Post

    ...its not like a lot of our govt employees are super educated or anything.
    It's pretty unfair to paint them all with the same brush: Perhaps it's different in the US but, to be honest, some of the most highly-educated people I've ever met were government employees. I've even met people in relatively-minor administrative positions that were fluent in several languages and had two, or more, degrees.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

      It's pretty unfair to paint them all with the same brush: Perhaps it's different in the US but, to be honest, some of the most highly-educated people I've ever met were government employees. I've even met people in relatively-minor administrative positions that were fluent in several languages and had two, or more, degrees.
      Yeah, most HERE are "fluent" in several languages. DOESN'T MEAN MUCH! HECK, many at my current project call me STEAVE, and talk about IMPROVISING(read improving) things! Sometimes their emails are VERY confusing with a severely incorrect tense, misspellings, and words that imply an idea that one can only HOPE is contrary to any they want to convey. And many have several degrees, EVEN DOCTORATES, which ALSO don't mean much, if they can't even quickly tell you what 3 times 10 is, that is a REAL example.

      Frankly, if I say educated, in this context, it means knowing the subject and general knowledge to a certain degree. I don't care if they have been in college 30 years!

      Heck, many LIE about such things!

      So PLEASE! If they can speak 10 languages, and have 5 degrees, are in a programming job and don't even know what a race condition, outer join, or a lock is, PLEASE don't try to tell me "Well they are smart and educated"!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    So it's better to pay them unemployment instead? They aren't going to find other jobs in this economy, so just give them money?

    But yeah, there are some gov jobs that still should be CHANGED, like the 500,000 military troops we have in places we don't need to be, like Germany and Japan. Japan doesn't want us there, and we shouldn't be there. And Germany is just going to have to learn to defend itself from those pesky Russians themselves. (Hello? It's history telling us the Cold War ended 20 years ago.)

    Bring these guys home, put them on the borders and let the money they earn be spent in the US (and some Mexican strip joints). It isn't really "saving" money, just spending it much more effectively and in a way that will benefit more of us.

    Let the Marines and Navy work with the Coast Guard to protect the 3500 oil rigs in the Gulf. Al Qaeda and others have surely noticed the BP disaster...And I promise that taking out a rig is far easier than taking out the World Trade Center, and does a hell of a lot more destruction. Those that still want to keep drilling in the oceans, you better start protecting them better. I can't think of a better target for terrorists than these wellsm riggs and pipelines. And considering it's oil...A perfect target for terrorists.

    Ancient WWII style depth charges can destroy plastic pipelines. A boat full of explosives may take out rigs.

    Who should we protect? Japan and Germany or ourselves?
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      So it's better to pay them unemployment instead? They aren't going to find other jobs in this economy, so just give them money?
      ACTUALLY it WOULD be! They would get paid LESS for likely the SAME work, and they would be encouraged to be more productive.

      But yeah, there are some gov jobs that still should be CHANGED, like the 500,000 military troops we have in places we don't need to be, like Germany and Japan. Japan doesn't want us there, and we shouldn't be there. And Germany is just going to have to learn to defend itself from those pesky Russians themselves. (Hello? It's history telling us the Cold War ended 20 years ago.)
      Actually, one of the agreements in WWII was that WE would provide their national defense.

      Bring these guys home, put them on the borders and let the money they earn be spent in the US (and some Mexican strip joints). It isn't really "saving" money, just spending it much more effectively and in a way that will benefit more of us.
      But the current admin does NOT want to defend the border!

      Let the Marines and Navy work with the Coast Guard to protect the 3500 oil rigs in the Gulf. Al Qaeda and others have surely noticed the BP disaster...And I promise that taking out a rig is far easier than taking out the World Trade Center, and does a hell of a lot more destruction. Those that still want to keep drilling in the oceans, you better start protecting them better. I can't think of a better target for terrorists than these wellsm riggs and pipelines. And considering it's oil...A perfect target for terrorists.
      FRANKLY, I'm shocked they haven't been hit YET!

      Ancient WWII style depth charges can destroy plastic pipelines. A boat full of explosives may take out rigs.

      Who should we protect? Japan and Germany or ourselves?
      Gee, it doesn't even have to be THAT complicated!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        ACTUALLY it WOULD be! They would get paid LESS for likely the SAME work, and they would be encouraged to be more productive.
        Bull. This assumes each employee fired had zero productivity, which is a hell of a jump in logic.

        Actually, one of the agreements in WWII was that WE would provide their national defense.
        Pay attention to the news!!!! Japan doesn't want us there any more. The Prime Minister just resigned over this very issue!!!!

        Plus, everything is negoitable. If we wanted to, I feel confident we could work something out with Germany.

        But, you miss the bigger picture, as usual. Germany makes up a small percentage of the over-all number of troops in places where they don't need to be. I simply brought up one example.


        But the current admin does NOT want to defend the border!
        IRRELEVANT!!!! I'm not talking about Obama's politics. I posted MY opinion!!!

        Also, try to respect what "no politics" mean. My opinion is one thing, Obama's is politics.


        FRANKLY, I'm shocked they haven't been hit YET!
        Then what's your plan!???!? You thanked Kay above for posting that we should continue drilling, but with more safety measures...What's your plan to protect these rigs from intentional harm?\

        Mine was to move to green energy and not have rigs in our oceans.

        Gee, it doesn't even have to be THAT complicated!
        Made my point stonger, and although you offer no example to back up your claim, I'll agree with you.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Then what's your plan!???!? You thanked Kay above for posting that we should continue drilling, but with more safety measures...What's your plan to protect these rigs from intentional harm?

          Mine was to move to green energy and not have rigs in our oceans.



          Made my point stonger, and although you offer no example to back up your claim, I'll agree with you.
          There really isn't any way to really defend the rigs. There are too many ways they could be hit. HEY, you could want them to be safER and still realize they can never be SAFE. Look at the ships in Pearl Harbor. The idea was to defend against subs, so the japanese hit them with planes. AND, sorry if this is obvious, the deeper the water, the more area that could be used to attack and the more covert it could be.

          And HEY, I was for solar in the early 70s! I was just a kid at the time, but knew solar was
          viable, etc... I never liked the idea of a noxious and dangerous compound being used to create a controlled explosion used to provide power.

          I wasn't trying to shoot down your points there. I was AGREEING with you. Although in some points here I APPEAR inconsistant, it is ONLY when it comes to realizing that so much right now still requires oil, etc... I DON'T like OIL. I wish it were NEVER discovered! The world WOULD be very different, but I think I would consider it BETTER in most cases. And the world trade tower may never have been built, Israel may never have been recreated, but who knows, maybe the world wars wouldn't have happened. I don't know if we would have computers, but we wouldn't have the huge outsourcing, etc...

          Sorry for realizing that. If I thought we could just switch fuels, I would be out there QUICKLY saying so.

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    PS...I'd like the gov, fed and local, come up with ways to create more revenue and more jobs.

    One quick example: A premium "fast lane" option at the DMV for $20 more.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      PS...I'd like the gov, fed and local, come up with ways to create more revenue and more jobs.

      One quick example: A premium "fast lane" option at the DMV for $20 more.
      HECK, think of the money and time savings if they just printed stuff in ENGLISH!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    I don't necessarily think we should lay off the government employee. What we need to do is pay the politicans about half as much as they make and fire their asses when they are asleep at the wheel (chronic condition).

    My town is a bankrupt town in a bankrupt state. What do they do? Lay off the police and shut down the fire stations - real smart - while crime rises - Hey punks, it is free for all - no cops.

    When you call 911 they have to go to some neighboring town to get somebody to come. Good luck if you have minutes to live while our emergency response team commutes.

    Do you think these FRICKING idiots would think about how many police and firemen we could hire if they took $10,000 of each grossly inflated politicians salary? Of course not.

    Do you think they care what happens to you? Educated or not - they could not care less - it is all just a job to them. However police and fire risk their very lives for you.

    As above so below - same thing with corporations - the executives are paid grossly extravagant salaries even when the company is failing - workers are laid off and struggling without raises to keep up with the cost of living.

    Even when they get fired which is rare - their big punishment is a couple million in stock options etc - again even when the ship is sinking on their watch.
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    • Profile picture of the author dsimms
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      I don't necessarily think we should lay off the government employee. What we need to do is pay the politicans about half as much as they make and fire their asses when they are asleep at the wheel (chronic condition). .
      I think this sorta makes my point. If you can see politicans asleep at the wheel, can you imagine all those govt employees that you can not see that are asleep at the wheel...they are the forgotten ones that we just pay, pay, and pay...some maybe important, others may not be important at all, we know the govt loves to spend money, and sometimes create jobs of no real importance.

      and those other type of employees that I have seen on the news, they show up for work, do nothing most of the day on our tax payer dime, then go home, and none of them were fired, with the exception of the big boss, which he stepped down (still had a job) and when I seen this on the news, I agree 100% our govt should be becoming smaller, not larger, and doing cutbacks....

      We need a smaller govt, we do not need a bigger one...
      we can see right now what big govt is doing, its not working.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    AdvertisingGuerilla (is that your REAL name?)

    So with your 12 years of Macro-economics in consideration -- lets just cut to the chase.

    If we weren't owned by the Federal Reserve and melding our free enterprise into a governmental industrial complex -- we would NOT be having any of the financial or political melt down we are having right now. You can't deny that if you have the complete understanding of M-E that you claim..........
    We just aren't allowed in this forum to put the real name on that system.
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    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

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