31 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}
31 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}

Electric Cars

by Kurt
27 replies
  • OFF TOPIC
    • |
Electric cars are one of my pet topics. The electric motor is one of the great inventions of all times and will run "forever".

Electric cars much simpler and don't need any of the following parts:

water system: water pump, hoses, radiator, anti-freeze, etc.

fuel system - carb, spark plugs, fuel pump, fuel injection, etc.

exhaust system - muffler, catalytic converter, tail pipes, manifolds, etc.


We're getting pretty close. Nissan just released the Leaf and Tesla Motors has teamed up with Toyota.

The Leaf only costs about $32,000 and has some tax credits to make the cost lower and gets 100 miles per charge. A guy will come to your house and install a special charger in your home. It takes about 8 hours to get a full charge.

Orlando is setting up charging stations for the Leaf.

Tesla Motors seems to be even further along, although their sports car is pretty expensive. Tesla should be coming out with a lower priced sedan soon.

The sports car gets 240 miles per charge, and and be charged in as little as 4 hours. The estimate is 56 miles range per hour charge. (not my math)

240 mile range is good enough. This is close to the range many cars have.

Here's the problem as I see it...Electric cars should be engineered so that their batteries are easily replaceable. It may take a fork-lift type machine, but that's OK.

Now you just pull into a "charging station" that has pre-charged batteries, swap out your batteries for ones that have a half or full charge. The charging station then recharges the batteries and "sells" them to the next person.

This gives owners the option of charging at home or swapping out batteries when they are on the road or don't have time to recharge.

Put a few experimental solar powered charging stations in the desert SW US, like between LA and Las Vegas, and let users get free charges to kick-start the industry.

These solar powered charging stations don't need to be on a grid and can generate charges independently. And the people of S. California are a great market for electric cars.

The next problem is the cost of electic cars. If they can be mass produced, the costs should come down. Plus with all the fewer parts there's far less maintence costs and fuel costs should be a lot cheaper.

Another hurdle is our electric grid can't handle electric cars right now. This is why solar and wind is such a great idea. You can put a windmill anywhere where there's enough wind to create energy, no need to build a grid first.

The US is the Saudi Arabia of wind power. The wind alley is in states like WY, SD, ND, NB.

The SW USA also has as much sunshine as anyone in the World. There's enough solar power available in a small part of Nevada to power the entire USA.

It's really a matter of our grid doesn't reach the areas where the wind and sun are.

Some interesting stuff about these cars:
Tesla Motors - High performance electric vehicles. Available now.

Nissan LEAF Electric Car
  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    For just getting around town for chores...

    Xebra Xero Solar Panel | ZAP! Electric Vehicles
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2203446].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
      Too bad Chevron owns the patents to the small, high capacity NiMH batteries.

      Here is a timeline of the events that led to the halting of production of the small but powerful batteries that can make electric cars immediately viable.

      Who Controls the Large Capacity NiMH Batteries for 100% Pure Electric Cars? | Two Cents per Mile
      Signature

      “Strategy without action is a day-dream; action without strategy is a nightmare.” – Old Japanese proverb -

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2203616].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Lawrh View Post

        Too bad Chevron owns the patents to the small, high capacity NiMH batteries.

        Here is a timeline of the events that led to the halting of production of the small but powerful batteries that can make electric cars immediately viable.

        Who Controls the Large Capacity NiMH Batteries for 100% Pure Electric Cars? | Two Cents per Mile

        Who cares?

        The tesla's "Custom microprocessor-controlled lithium-ion battery" goes farther than the one in the article you posted and has the same 2 cents per mile cost.

        Tesla Motors - Charging Demo & FAQ

        Mihm batteries may be better than lithium, but lithium is better than oil leaks in the Gulf and lithium is good enough to get the job done.

        Chevron can sit on the sidelines and protect their patent all they want and not make any money from it. Toyota has a different idea.
        Signature
        Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
        Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2204286].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Toyota has a different idea.
          Let's hope Toyota's idea works out.

          The reason I pointed to the NiMH patent was because it is for small high capacity batteries that can do the job now. The Tesla is awesome, but the batteries are not small or easily changed and have a current replacement cost of $36,000.

          Believe it or not, Tesla Motors has a batteries "futures" plan. You pay $12,000 now to reserve a battery seven years early (the battery is supposed to last seven years). You get a rebate if the manufacturing cost goes down. You also have the option of extending the three year warranty for an additional $5000.

          Hopefully the Toyota/Tesla partnership is a success.

          It's just sad that we have to wait several years for new technology to be available when what is needed already exists. Locked up by an energy company.

          Edit: I just saw Steve's post. This is proven technology that has overcome past problems. It is the tech that was used in GM's electric car. In fact they sold the patent to Texaco/Chevron because they wanted to stop electric car production. With 700 less parts and extreme reliability it would kill their parts and service business.
          Signature

          “Strategy without action is a day-dream; action without strategy is a nightmare.” – Old Japanese proverb -

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2204401].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I would love an electric car. I've also been interested in them since the time my stepfather had an electric lawn mower.

            This was many years ago and the neighbors laughed at it. It wasn't as powerful as a gas engine mower....it had a CORD that you had to be careful not to run over.

            It was quiet, lasted for many, many years - and was borrowed by the neighbors every time their gas mower was in the shop.

            I loved the quietness of it. I also had an electric golf cart when I worked at a lake resort and love that, too. I'm sure I'd like an electric car.

            kay
            Signature
            Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
            ***
            Live life like someone left the gate open
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2204726].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I would love an electric car. I've also been interested in them since the time my stepfather had an electric lawn mower.

              This was many years ago and the neighbors laughed at it. It wasn't as powerful as a gas engine mower....it had a CORD that you had to be careful not to run over.

              It was quiet, lasted for many, many years - and was borrowed by the neighbors every time their gas mower was in the shop.

              I loved the quietness of it. I also had an electric golf cart when I worked at a lake resort and love that, too. I'm sure I'd like an electric car.

              kay
              In the 60's, my Grandmother had an electric mower too. After using it, the only mowers I've ever owned were either electric or push.

              I love electric mowers. No gas, oil, spark plugs...And best of all, no pulling and pulling and pulling the starter cord. Just flip a switch and it's on.
              Signature
              Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
              Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2204927].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Lawrh View Post

            Let's hope Toyota's idea works out.

            The Tesla is awesome, but the batteries are not small or easily changed and have a current replacement cost of $36,000.

            Believe it or not, Tesla Motors has a batteries "futures" plan. You pay $12,000 now to reserve a battery seven years early (the battery is supposed to last seven years). You get a rebate if the manufacturing cost goes down. You also have the option of extending the three year warranty for an additional $5000.

            Hopefully the Toyota/Tesla partnership is a success.

            It's just sad that we have to wait several years for new technology to be available when what is needed already exists. Locked up by an energy company.

            Edit: I just saw Steve's post. This is proven technology that has overcome past problems. It is the tech that was used in GM's electric car. In fact they sold the patent to Texaco/Chevron because they wanted to stop electric car production. With 700 less parts and extreme reliability it would kill their parts and service business.
            To me, the points in red are the keys. Changing the battery "should be" a matter of engineering. I understand they are heavy, but again a fork lift type device can be used.

            The $12,000 is a major concern. The hope would be mass production could really lower the cost. For discussion, let's say the cost could be cut in half to $6000. This cost could be absorbed by the battery charging stations, then passed on to the consumer over a period of time with each charge they get.

            As far as Chevron, how about:

            - We contact the ACLU and see if they might sue Chevron on the grounds of "iminant domain". Remember the controversial Supreme Court ruling that said they can take away private property if it can be proven it's more valuable to the communtity?

            - Have Congress/President threaten all sorts of sanctions, taxes, etc. if Chevron doesn't want to play ball.

            - Inform and educate the public so they become "demanding".

            - Make it profitable for Chevron. Let's use some of that stimulus money to buy the rights to the batteries and then make the tech "public domain" for all cars sold in N. America. Think of what this might do for our economy. Or, work out a deal where Chevron licenses the tech and gets paid a percentage of each sale.

            These aren't the only possiblities and none alone is the answer. But together, things "could" change.

            The timing couldn't be any better than it is now. And we just need to be a little more vocal about things.
            Signature
            Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
            Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2204992].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              - We contact the ACLU and see if they might sue Chevron on the grounds of "iminant domain". Remember the controversial Supreme Court ruling that said they can take away private property if it can be proven it's more valuable to the communtity? .
              I believe that is in the constitution, regarding LAND! If they did it with ideas, patents would become worthless. HECK, look at RIMS! THAT was a clear case of MILLIONS relying on and using a PRECISE technology vs. a PATENT that did NOTHING but vaguely describe it.

              Steve
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2206374].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    Electric cars are one of my pet topics.
    Mine too, Kurt! Judging by what you wrote in the "BP" thread, it looks like we both studied engineering at college...

    Tell me... have you seen the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car?"?


    The Nissan Leaf will be available in the UK in January 2011 -- I'd love one, but they aren't cheap. After government subsidies, it would cost about £25,000. The Mitsubishi iMiev is also expected to be on the UK market in January as well.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2203577].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Last year they had a guy on TV from Ca. who was converting gas cars to electric.
      He specialized in older mostly muscle cars and did them for the stars naturally.
      The episode I saw he did a 67 Camaro for the lead singer of the Red Hot Chile Peppers. I found the link to the guys site Welcome to Hippy Motors
      Here's a video of KillaCycle an electric motorcycle setting a new record at the drag strip.
      Signature

      Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
      Getting old ain't for sissy's
      As you are I was, as I am you will be
      You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2203613].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Last year they had a guy on TV from Ca. who was converting gas cars to electric.
        He specialized in older mostly muscle cars and did them for the stars naturally.
        The episode I saw he did a 67 Camaro for the lead singer of the Red Hot Chile Peppers. I found the link to the guys site Welcome to Hippy Motors
        Here's a video of KillaCycle an electric motorcycle setting a new record at the drag strip.
        YouTube - KillaCycle New Record 7.86 @ 169 MPH Bandimere Speedway NEDRA event
        Hey Thom,

        Bandimere is here in my neck of the woods, just outside Denver.

        I saw a show where an electric cycle raced a combustion cycle. Electic won the first race. They were going to have a second race, the electic was ready in a couple of minutes. The combustion needed all sorts of tuning and adjustments and couldn't even start the second race.

        BTW, the Telsa Roadster Sport does 0 to 60 mph in 3.7 seconds.

        Here's some other performance cars to get a perspective of just how fast the Tesla can accelerate: (And you don't have to shift anything or have skills. Just hit the "gas" pedal.)

        0-60 (last number is the time)
        2005 Maserati Quattroporte 5.1
        2004 Maserati Quattroporte 5.9
        2004 Maserati Trofeo 4.0

        2003 Porsche Boxster S 5.1
        1989 Porsche Carrera 4 5.5
        1993 Porsche Carrera 2 Cabr. 6.0
        2004 Porsche Cayenne Turbo 5.4
        1991 Porsche Turbo 4.6
        2004 Porsche Turbo X50 3.7

        2000 Jaguar XKR 5.6
        2007 Jaguar XKR 4.3
        2001 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 6.3

        2003 BMW X5 3.0i 8.1
        2003 BMW Z4 3.0i 5.4

        1965 Shelby Cobra 427 S/C 4.6

        2005 Chevrolet Corvette C6 4.2
        2006 Chevrolet Corvette ZO6 3.5
        2007 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 3.7


        1983 Lamborghini Jalpa 7.3
        1968 Lamborghini Miura V12 6.3
        1970 Lamborghini Miura S 5.5
        2002 Lamborghini Murcielago 3.6
        2008 Lamborghini Murcielago LP460 4.0
        Signature
        Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
        Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2204334].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Hey Thom,

          Bandimere is here in my neck of the woods, just outside Denver.

          I saw a show where an electric cycle raced a combustion cycle. Electic won the first race. They were going to have a second race, the electic was ready in a couple of minutes. The combustion needed all sorts of tuning and adjustments and couldn't even start the second race.

          BTW, the Telsa Roadster Sport does 0 to 60 mph in 3.7 seconds.

          Here's some other performance cars to get a perspective of just how fast the Tesla can accelerate: (And you don't have to shift anything or have skills. Just hit the "gas" pedal.)

          0-60 (last number is the time)
          2005 Maserati Quattroporte 5.1
          2004 Maserati Quattroporte 5.9
          2004 Maserati Trofeo 4.0

          2003 Porsche Boxster S 5.1
          1989 Porsche Carrera 4 5.5
          1993 Porsche Carrera 2 Cabr. 6.0
          2004 Porsche Cayenne Turbo 5.4
          1991 Porsche Turbo 4.6
          2004 Porsche Turbo X50 3.7

          2000 Jaguar XKR 5.6
          2007 Jaguar XKR 4.3
          2001 Jaguar X-Type 3.0 6.3

          2003 BMW X5 3.0i 8.1
          2003 BMW Z4 3.0i 5.4

          1965 Shelby Cobra 427 S/C 4.6

          2005 Chevrolet Corvette C6 4.2
          2006 Chevrolet Corvette ZO6 3.5
          2007 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 3.7


          1983 Lamborghini Jalpa 7.3
          1968 Lamborghini Miura V12 6.3
          1970 Lamborghini Miura S 5.5
          2002 Lamborghini Murcielago 3.6
          2008 Lamborghini Murcielago LP460 4.0
          I know, it's nuts the acceleration they have.
          I remember when he delivered the camaro I was laughing at the reactions Anthony had. First he asked how to start it, the guy said it's already running. Anthony says 'I don't hear anything'. 'Exactly' the guy replies.
          Then he slowly backed it out of his garage and smoked the tires when he put it in drive and hammered it.
          Signature

          Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
          Getting old ain't for sissy's
          As you are I was, as I am you will be
          You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2204392].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    This is all well and good for people who don't travel or stay on the main roads - but when you are out in the boondocks on 4WD trails you don't want your vehicle to run out of juice. It's just as bad as having to get out and get to a gas station on time if you can't recharge anywhere and any time. How long do you want to have to sit while your car recharges, too? 8 hours to be able to go any further? That's not even starting to be practical.

    I'm still interested in having them perfect engines which run on water so I don't have to worry about getting stranded in the middle of nowhere, can refill at any time.

    Where are the water engines we were promised?
    Signature

    Sal
    When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
    Beyond the Path

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2204343].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      This is all well and good for people who don't travel or stay on the main roads - but when you are out in the boondocks on 4WD trails you don't want your vehicle to run out of juice. It's just as bad as having to get out and get to a gas station on time if you can't recharge anywhere and any time. How long do you want to have to sit while your car recharges, too? 8 hours to be able to go any further? That's not even starting to be practical.
      Hey Sal,

      The vast majority of driving is on-road. And not all vehicles need to be electric. There's also natural gas and bio diesel. And a few old-fashioned gas cars won't hurt.

      Saw grass seems to be far and away the best source for bio diesel. Takes no maintaining, is drought resistant and it's the most energy efficient. Plus it is the natural grass of our prairies.

      As for batteries taking time to recharge, the main point of my OP was that I believe it's essential to engineer the batteries so they are swappable.

      Israel and Denmark are already doing this. They use "pancake batteries" which are flat and stored UNDER the car. This gives the cars a very low center of gravity.

      These batteries are then exchanged at "changing stations".

      Better Place | Charging electric vehicles (EVs)

      Better Place provides this solution via a network of battery switch stations that use an ingenious robotic system to switch new batteries for depleted ones, cool and charge the batteries in inventory, and manage the complex logistics to ensure that each EV gets a fully-charged battery each time the vehicle arrives at a station.


      At Better Place battery switch stations, drivers enter a lane and the station takes over from there. The car proceeds along a conveyor while the automated switch platform below the vehicle aligns under the battery, washes the underbody, initiates the battery release process and lowers the battery from the vehicle. The depleted battery is placed onto a storage rack for charging, monitoring and preparation for the another vehicle. A fully-charged battery is then lifted into the waiting car. The switch process takes less time than a stop at the gas station and the driver and passengers may remain in the car throughout.
      Signature
      Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
      Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2205141].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    NiMH? You'r KIDDING, RIGHT!?!?!? Don't you remember? They USED to be used for EVERYTHING! They were like 3rd Gen rechargables. It was like the REALLY old ones, NiCad, NiMH! So WHAT is the joke? It is a two parter! OK, READY!?!?!?

    1. NiMH have "memory", and need to be fully discharged before they are recharged. If they aren't, they are degraded!

    2. We are on the FOURTH generation. THAT is lithium Ion. There is a REASON why computers don't generally use NiMH anymore! BTW Lion is FAR better for the environment than NiMH.

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2204389].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    There will never be an electric Harley Davidson.

    A quiet Harley?

    You're talking social unrest and rioting in the streets.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2205023].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

      There will never be an electric Harley Davidson.

      A quiet Harley?

      You're talking social unrest and rioting in the streets.
      You'll never find me on an electric Road Star either
      How the heck would I set off car alarms:confused:
      Signature

      Life: Nature's way of keeping meat fresh
      Getting old ain't for sissy's
      As you are I was, as I am you will be
      You can't fix stupid, but you can always out smart it.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2205989].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ddunk80
    Fuel is useless if just contained; that's why a fuel pump, with the help of a fuel pump relay, makes sure that it reaches the engine. Fuel needs to be distributed to the injectors for it to reach the engine, to be burned, and to power up the vehicle. But in order for that to happen, the relay would need to first switch on the pump. How can a electric car can do that?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3433322].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
      Old thread here, but I don't think an electric car needs a fuel pump.

      Originally Posted by ddunk80 View Post

      Fuel is useless if just contained; that's why a fuel pump, with the help of a fuel pump relay, makes sure that it reaches the engine. Fuel needs to be distributed to the injectors for it to reach the engine, to be burned, and to power up the vehicle. But in order for that to happen, the relay would need to first switch on the pump. How can a electric car can do that?
      Signature

      :)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5522729].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Darren Dillman
    I have a question. I am not an engineer so any who are can chime in. Or anyone with any knowledge or thoughts on the subject would be great. Unless you just say it won't work. I want to know IF it could work even in a large application then with technology make the application smaller/better over time.

    Replenishing electricity in an electric vehicle?

    Could it work? Even if it didn't make it an Everlasting Gob Stopper type vehicle. Could it be viable?

    I was on a green forum a minute ago and all I read was why it wouldn't work and not what it would take for it to work.

    They were saying if you added a wind turbine in the ducting that is now used for aerodynamic and radiator cooling that the drag from the turbine would cancel out any electricity produced.

    I don't know if these guys had credentials to be able to make those claims truthfully or were just "it won't work, it won't work" type of people pulling their "facts" out of their rear-ends.

    They said that 1 turbine might produce a 25% increase in power but the drag would cost 75% making the technology pointless because it would cost more power than it produced.

    Other's were throwing out ideas like using the wheels connected to generators to replenish some power.

    My question:

    What if in the turbine (windmill type) idea was expounded upon, why not position 2, 3, 4 or more turbines in a wind tunnel type tube so the same air powering the first turbine would power all the turbines until it exits out the vehicle?

    Now if the first turbine created any turbulence counteract it by rifling the tunnel to direct the air in a more controlled manner into the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc turbines.

    Also what if the tunnel were graduated down from the front to the rear like a funnel? Would this create greater air speed at each successive turbine or would the air stream become bogged down.

    When I say "like a funnel" I don't mean such a drastic reduction from large to tiny. More like a cone, I guess. Steady reduction instead.

    So if the other forum deduction is correct- receive 25% for 75% spent. Would positioning successive turbines in a tunnel be able to increase 25% X the number of turbines with the same 75% spent or would the drag also be multiplied by the number of turbines? I'm not sure that it would. But is, of course, why I'm asking.

    If so, then my theory is bunk. But if it "could" work then it would be interesting to explore it further.

    Think of all the possibilities. Initially may not work in a car. But prove it, like I said, in a larger application then go from there.

    EDIT: Not a cone either...duh. Just reduced steadily from front to rear.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5522547].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author dunmo
    Am looking forward to be part and parcel of this great invention and i will absolutely drive one of these cars.I think with such discoveries life is more simplified and made easier.Wow!great work to the guys who came up with the idea.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5522975].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rondo
    The Chevy Volt is coming to Australia as the Holden Volt.
    Volt Coming Soon - Holden. Go better.

    The local price will be 60K plus on-road costs, which is 20K more than USA pricing. Most of it in taxes. Ouch!


    Andrew
    Signature
    Online courses
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5523023].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michael Ten
    Electric cars are amazing technology. Tesla Motors is run at least partly by Elon Musk who has also started a space flight company, SpaceX. He has really grabbed life by the horns, and is pretty amazing.
    Signature

    New Book! Radical Life Extension. Help me to hasten the defeat of aging.
    Michael Ten . Do Nothing Does . All Books by Michael Ten

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5523089].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rondo
    Elon Musk is a very clever guy, he was also a co-founder of Paypal.
    Signature
    Online courses
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5527982].message }}

Trending Topics