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Unread 25th June 2010, 07:56 AM   #1
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Default What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Hi Warriors,

In a recent thread, somebody asked "What percentage of people on here do you think are LYING?". Talk about a loaded question!

I'm so fed up with people thinking 80%, 90%, 95% or 100% of the people here are being dishonest.

For one thing, if I EVER thought I was somewhere where 80%+ of the people were lying...I WOULD RUN FOR THE DOOR.

So, if so many people think we're crooks, then why do they stay here?

Anyway, let's reverse the tables and ask...

What percentage of Warriors do you think are honest, hard working people?

All the best,
Michael


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Unread 25th June 2010, 07:59 AM   #2
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

10% Maybe. I try to be an optimist.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

{raises hand}
.

.

.
{gets back to work}

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:03 AM   #4
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

I think that the vast majority of people are honest, hard-working people who just want to build a business. It's the vocal minority that is truly dishonest but as with everything in life, human nature tends to magnify the negative.

I've also found that those complaining about lying marketers are the ones who failed to make the big money they thought they would in a short amount of time. Instead of taking responsibility, it is easier to blame the marketer and say they lied.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Michael, I honestly have no idea.

Forget IM.

I have lived through 52 years in the off line world and I have run into more
than my fair share of shady characters.

It's a big planet. There are good and bad people everywhere. What I try to
do is focus on the good but at the same time realize that I have to be
careful about who I deal with. Look, just recently a bunch of people who
had it in for me got my Youtube account closed.

The world is what it is.

All we can do is make the best of it.



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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:03 AM   #6
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Thanks a lot Lisa. What? I don't count anymore?

Mike, I think most of us are hard working, honest people. I think the problem lies more in the mindset of others.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:03 AM   #7
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post
10% Maybe. I try to be an optimist.
Seriously?

Then, no offense intended, why do you hang out here if you think 90% are lazy liars? Again, nothing personal.

That's the other part of it I don't get. I'm really trying to wrap my head around why people would count themselves amongs a group of so many people they think are lying.

Do you seriously think only 10% are honest, or only 10% are hard working, or 10% are BOTH honest AND hard working?

It would also be interesting to see how many people think THEY are honest.

Kind of like 87% of drivers believe they are above average, if you follow.

That being said, I did ask.



All the best,
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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:04 AM   #8
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

I dont want to work hard, but I sure as hell want to be honest in what I do.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:05 AM   #9
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Can't you be honest, but not hard working? Or dishonest and hard working?

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:09 AM   #10
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post
It would also be interesting to see how many people think THEY are honest.


All the best,
Michael
I am honest to a fault. I can't even imagine how many sales I've lost
because I've told people this isn't for them if they're looking to push a
button and have $100 bills fall from the sky.

I honestly sometimes think I'm not really cut out for this business because
there are a lot of things I won't do and there are a lot of things I see that
I hate.

But then I look at people like Paul Myers, Kevin Riley, Tim Gorman, Dean
Shainin and others who I admire because of the way they run their
business. Paul Myers, with his newsletter, takes the term "overdeliver" and
gives it a whole new meaning.

There are some really good eggs out here Michael.

There are also some really bad apples.

Such is life.



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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:10 AM   #11
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisN View Post
Can't you be honest, but not hard working? Or dishonest and hard working?
Thanks, Curtis, that's a good point.

Let me change the question to...

What percentage of Warriors do you think are honest, and/or hard working people?

That's more of what I'm curious about.

All the best,
Michael


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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:12 AM   #12
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post
I think that the vast majority of people are honest, hard-working people who just want to build a business.
You should realize, that if that were true about this place ever, it wouldn't stay true for long, because for a subset of the population (which is VASTLY larger than you think) the kind of person you describe is "prey".

And since these kinds of people tend to hunt in packs and they can smell blood in the water, very very quickly, the predators and scavengers will outnumber the prey.

What is it you think LED to the person posting the thread that this OP disagreed with?

There's also a distortion that happens when you talk about the bad people online as being a "vocal minority" because that's not possible in an online context.

You're dealing with a permanent informational medium. The most vocal segment CANNOT be a minority, because they produce the majority of the documents.

The population of this forum only APPEARS to you to be people - it's actually just a big repository of information. I would say the vast, vast majority of the information contained on this site is shared by people who are not qualified to say what they are saying other than that they are repeating it.

That in itself is one of the most dangerous forms of dishonesty, when you present your opinion as fact because it masks ignorance from the audience. Remember, it's not just willful or predatory dishonesty that harms.

Would anyone disagree?

I feel like if you come into this place you need to have your night vision goggles on, not your rose colored glasses.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:12 AM   #13
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post
Seriously?

Then, no offense intended, why do you hang out here if you think 90% are lazy liars? Again, nothing personal.

That's the other part of it I don't get. I'm really trying to wrap my head around why people would count themselves amongs a group of so many people they think are lying.

Do you seriously think only 10% are honest, or only 10% are hard working, or 10% are BOTH honest AND hard working?

It would also be interesting to see how many people think THEY are honest.

Kind of like 87% of drivers believe they are above average, if you follow.

That being said, I did ask.



All the best,
Michael
Michael,

I would kind of agree with Colin. There are well over 100K members of this forum. A fraction of that number is active. The inactive people do not represent what this forum is all about.

Therefore, it would be a mistake to count us as one of them. As for those who are left standing, it's difficult to say. The naive thing to say would be that there's only a couple bad apples. But I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of dishonest and lazy people either pretending to be legit, or simply lurking in the shadows.

So why do I hang out here? Because the people who represent this forum are the ones who are active, and these people are honest.

Curtis

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:16 AM   #14
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post
Thanks, Curtis, that's a good point.

Let me change the question to...

What percentage of Warriors do you think are honest, and/or hard working people?

That's more of what I'm curious about.

All the best,
Michael
Well, now that you put it that way, I'd guess we're into the 70% and above.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:16 AM   #15
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

No, the naive thing would be to say "90% of the people here are liars, but there's no way I'll fall prey to them".



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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:24 AM   #16
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

How would we know?



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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:29 AM   #17
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post
Seriously?

Then, no offense intended, why do you hang out here if you think 90% are lazy liars? Again, nothing personal.
I believe in what Ted Sturgeon said about 99% of everything being crap. I said 90% because I'm more of an optimist. If I was trying to avoid the 90% of crap out there, I would never leave my house.

This forum is big enough to be a reflection and microcosm of the world at large. At least, the technologically advanced first world culture.

And you can't really believe that 90% of that society is NOT both lazy and stupid and lie all the time, not just to authority and each other, but to themselves.

And hey, me too. No one can escape it - our brains are built to sleepwalk us through life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post
That's the other part of it I don't get. I'm really trying to wrap my head around why people would count themselves amongs a group of so many people they think are lying.
I count myself among them because I'm not yet such a misanthrope that I don't want to be part of humanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post
Do you seriously think only 10% are honest, or only 10% are hard working, or 10% are BOTH honest AND hard working?
It might not be the same 10%, because I don't they they have a causal relationship, but I think the percentages would be about the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post
It would also be interesting to see how many people think THEY are honest.

Kind of like 87% of drivers believe they are above average, if you follow.
Almost everyone thinks they are "honest" or at least they live up to some kind of code. Excluding total sociopaths, even the worst deliberate frauds have a sort of ethics where their predatory natures will be reigned in when among perceived equals.

No bad guy ever thinks they are just being a bad guy. It's always internally justified. There's a really great series in the New York Times right now by Errol Morris about how the ignorant, by definition, are not capable of recognizing how ignorant they are.

We are ruled and dominated and surrounded by overconfident idiots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post
That being said, I did ask.



All the best,
Michael
You did! Would you rather I lied in my answer?

But to the core of your question - why am I here anyway? Why do I spend my time posting all the stuff I do? I dunno. Duty? I was born with the ability to create a signal, but I was born into a world of noise.

There are other people like me, and I prefer to spend my time with them, but if you don't use the signal, if you don't get out there and listen for other signals, you never find them. That gets lonely and depressing.

Also, I think a large part of the ignorance problem has to do with SMART people not CARING and not doing MORE. You know what I'M tired of? Not negativity about your fellow man, because I'm a realist and its deserved.

What I'm tired of is how things have gotten so backwards that it's not cool to be smart. I think that keeps WAY more progress from happening than ANYTHING else. If society put as much value into education as it put into sports, the STARS would be in our reach by now.

We walked on the FREAKING MOON at one time in our human history. At one point THAT is what riveted the world's imagination. Now we have reality TV, which to quote Dana Gould - is "an amateur production about nothing".

So I say enough. I say cut a swath through the masses. Let your little light shine. Be the missionary of the smart and the honest and the USEFUL out there among the sleeping masses. Maybe if I wake up just one or two people... and THEY wake up one or two people...

Then MAYBE us smarter people will not get bred out of existence before the inevitable rock from space wipes out most of the human race. If we have at least a FEW smart people left by then, we might not get reset back to zero.

But you know, I try to be an optimist.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:33 AM   #18
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

The few people who I trusted were scammers who resorted to pulling the farce of being successful but with the intention of making money any way possible even if it meant being dishonest with their earnings in order to build a trust with the customer. So far it's 0-4 from the folk I've been following. No names mentioned.
I've also noticed that even the reputable folk who are releasing step by step guides on earning money actually try to cop-out with the whole "Think outside the box" or "Be creative" rather than actually explain the whole step by step process.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:43 AM   #19
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanz View Post
The few people who I trusted were scammers who resorted to pulling the farce of being successful but with the intention of making money any way possible even if it meant being dishonest with their earnings in order to build a trust with the customer. So far it's 0-4 from the folk I've been following. No names mentioned.
I've also noticed that even the reputable folk who are releasing step by step guides on earning money actually try to cop-out with the whole "Think outside the box" or "Be creative" rather than actually explain the whole step by step process.
Do you think an idiot could explain to a smart person how to be an idiot? Probably not. It's the same thing with creativity - even if you have it, you can't necessarily teach it. That's why you see a lot of that.

And to be honest, they aren't lying - if they could GIVE you a step by step for that part, none of the people following would have any uniqueness, and in all likelihood, would fail because of it.

A lot of success in marketing has to do with getting attention, and getting attention has to do with breaking the pattern in a noticeable way. If everyone is breaking the pattern and the same time in the same way, it's just another pattern, and the attention-getting breaks down.

You've seen this happen in this niche - when people complain about "launch fatigue" it's because they've spotted the pattern of artificial buzz. It's no longer a believable singular bit of naturally-occurring goodness.

What I recommend you do instead of looking at being told to be creative and have a unique approach as a cop-out, is consider this quote from Ben Franklin:

"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing about."

Best way to get attention online I ever heard. Follow that line of thought, and you WILL FALL out of the box. Hope that helps.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:45 AM   #20
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post
Do you think an idiot could explain to a smart person how to be an idiot? Probably not. It's the same thing with creativity - even if you have it, you can't necessarily teach it. That's why you see a lot of that.

And to be honest, they aren't lying - if they could GIVE you a step by step for that part, none of the people following would have any uniqueness, and in all likelihood, would fail because of it.

A lot of success in marketing has to do with getting attention, and getting attention has to do with breaking the pattern in a noticeable way. If everyone is breaking the pattern and the same time in the same way, it's just another pattern, and the attention-getting breaks down.

You've seen this happen in this niche - when people complain about "launch fatigue" it's because they've spotted the pattern of artificial buzz. It's no longer a believable singular bit of naturally-occurring goodness.

What I recommend you do instead of looking at being told to be creative and have a unique approach as a cop-out, is consider this quote from Ben Franklin:

"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing about."

Best way to get attention online I ever heard. Follow that line of thought, and you WILL FALL out of the box. Hope that helps.

Colin, you're a bright guy....nough said.



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Unread 25th June 2010, 08:53 AM   #21
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

there is an old say that say:"You are what you think"
if you think that most people are honnest then you are honnest
if you think that most people are liars you are liar
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Unread 25th June 2010, 09:07 AM   #22
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Currently Active Users: 3804 (1264 members and 2540 guests)

How could anyone possibly know unless you're really a social butterfly and get around a lot. With that many users, each of us actually know (or have read numerous posts by) a small handful of total users, so any percentages are just more made up percentages.

Some are honest and some are not. It's that simple.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 09:08 AM   #23
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

One of the things I learned in Marine Corps boot camp (49 years ago this month) was there is always a 10%, who won't get it right, lie, steal, cheat and take advantage of anyone they can. But I also learned the other 90% are the ones who will be more than willing to go the extra mile with you or for you.

I have seen more Warriors going the extra mile for other Warriors than I have seen of the 10% losers taking advantage.

However, each one of us have to take responsibility for our own business and life decisions. Using a good healthy dose of common sense will keep you way ahead of the 10% loser bunch.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 09:28 AM   #24
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
What I'm tired of is how things have gotten so backwards that it's not cool to be smart. I think that keeps WAY more progress from happening than ANYTHING else. If society put as much value into education as it put into sports, the STARS would be in our reach by now.

We walked on the FREAKING MOON at one time in our human history. At one point THAT is what riveted the world's imagination. Now we have reality TV, which to quote Dana Gould - is "an amateur production about nothing".
I wish more people thought like this. I'm far more alarmed by the mindset of catering to the lowest common denominator than I am on the honesty levels.

I don't agree that most people are dishonest or even lazy, although I believe the lazy part of the population is growing tremendously. Are the majority perfect and completely 100% honest all the time? Nope. But I do believe the majority try to be. And I don't base my opinion on just this forum or the members here. This is still a very small population compared to the world at large or even the internet.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 09:28 AM   #25
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Mike, why don't you ask a hard question?

I have no way of knowing who on this forum is honest and/or hard working.

Through my life I've met folks who thought they were working hard while doing much less than someone else who thought they were doing relatively nothing.

I've met people who appeared to be totally honest and ethical in their professional lives but were provably dishonest in their personal lives.

This board is made up of people. People will be what they will be whether online or offline.

We judge the honesty and work ethic of others relative to our own standards. I think we also temper our judgments based on our opinion of another. We're more likely to give benefit of doubt to someone we like over someone we don't care for.

Finally, without a firm, agreed to by all, standard there will be differences of opinion as to who, here or anywhere, is honest and/or hard working.

One can be an honest and lazy layabout.
One can be a dishonest lazy layabout.
One can be a hard worker whether honest or dishonest.

As to assigning percentages of WF members who meet some standard for honesty and/or work ethic it will be no less than 0% and certainly no greater than 100%.

Elmer
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Unread 25th June 2010, 09:29 AM   #26
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

I would say that I am pretty honest but not hard working. However, I do not sell anything here. If I did, I honestly could not guarantee that I will be 100% honest. I do not ecen consider myself to be an Internet Marketeer.

In fact, I would think that the majority of warriors have not sold anything here. There is also a group including myself who have no interest in getting other warriors to their websites, blogs or mailing list hoping for a future sale. I would say that if you are just making money through Adsense, then you cannot be considered as an Internet Marketeer.

Therefore although I don't think that your logic necessarily applies.

Derek

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Unread 25th June 2010, 10:39 AM   #27
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

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Currently Active Users: 3804 (1264 members and 2540 guests)

How could anyone possibly know unless you're really a social butterfly and get around a lot. With that many users, each of us actually know (or have read numerous posts by) a small handful of total users, so any percentages are just more made up percentages.

Some are honest and some are not. It's that simple.
Hi Suzanne,

I think that's a fair statement.

It's also why it bugs me when I see posts that claim "90% of peopleat the Warrior Forum are dishonest."

It's not only a question of how could they know, but also one of why do they assume the worst? That's not being a realist, that's being cynical. Big difference.

On the other hand, I don't know either, but to suggest somebody is naive for assuming the best is plain old wrong. The trick is to assume the best, WITH verification. You can trust somebody and do your due diligence at the same time.

All the best,
Michael


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Unread 25th June 2010, 10:45 AM   #28
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

I read somewhere it's like this:

25% of people are dishonest all the time
25% of people are honest all the time
The other 50% will be dishonest if they think they can get away with it.....INTERNET?

So based on this I'd say 75% of people here and on the Net are dishonest some of the time.... ????

Like someone said before..when does hype = lies? Because we have all come across sales letters full of HYPE yet no one says "lies" What's the difference? Online?
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Unread 25th June 2010, 10:47 AM   #29
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

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But do honest people act honest ALL THE TIME? Are you saying 100% honest 100% of the time?
Are the people who say 99% of Warriors are liars saying they're 100% dishonest 100% of the time?

Obviously not.

There is problem here. If somebody claims to be honest, it's fairly common to find even the slightest hint of non-fact (read: opinion or ignorance) - THEN the cynics can say "SEE? I told you nobody was honest!"

BUT...If somebody is pegged as a liar, it's RARE that others start looking for truth to prove the contrary. Instead, they say "SEE? I told you nobody was honest!"

Are Warriors trying to be honest, or dishonest? Are they trying to scam people or not scam people? Are they concerned about their reputations, or not concerned about their reputations? And the list goes on...

I believe, generally speaking, that Warriors are a pretty decent bunch, and when people say 80%+ are not, then, yes, I disagree.

All the best,
Michael


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Unread 25th June 2010, 10:51 AM   #30
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Let me say this, and maybe this is a sad statement of fact, but it's truly
how I feel.

The number of people here at this forum who, if they PM'd me and asked
me to do a JV with them, I actually trust to do one...I could count those
people on one hand.

That isn't to say that I think everybody else is a crook. It's just that I've
seen so much (and sometimes from people I did trust) that I just don't
assume the best anymore.

If I feel that way, I can only imagine how many others feel the same way.

And if that's the case, then it really is a sad commentary on the
perception of honesty and ethics in the IM community.

Michael...sorry, but you asked.



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Unread 25th June 2010, 10:51 AM   #31
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

I do agree in that I've been on other forums where it's like stepping into a prison yard. I have no idea how many are dishonest at all......judging by many of the WSO's and services I have bought here I'd say 70%+ have been superb.....is that anything to go by?

Man.....cheer me up.
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Unread 25th June 2010, 10:57 AM   #32
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Great thread! Does it matter? HA! No.

As long as people hear what they want to, everybody's happy.

Lie to me, make me feel important, make me feel special...here, take my money.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 10:57 AM   #33
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

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Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post
Look, just recently a bunch of people who
had it in for me got my Youtube account closed.
Steven,

The good news: Youtube have identified who this bunch is

The bad news: it's the whole Warrior Forum

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Unread 25th June 2010, 11:00 AM   #34
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post
Let me say this, and maybe this is a sad statement of fact, but it's truly how I feel.

The number of people here at this forum who, if they PM'd me and asked
me to do a JV with them, I actually trust to do one...I could count those
people on one hand.
Sheesh Steven, I'd run out of fingers and toes and any other digit I'd care to use before I even exhausted the list of women on this forum I'd JV with if given the chance much less the men.

I'm either an optimist or I live a very sheltered life.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 11:00 AM   #35
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Can you define what you mean by lie, if you are counting white lies, non harmful lies etc... We all lie, it's true, 100% of people on this forum would be deemed a liar. Now, if your talking about how many people deliberately set out to deceive then I would go with 5-10%. I would like to think 90% are honest or atleast non malicious but maybe I am being way to optimistic .
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Unread 25th June 2010, 11:04 AM   #36
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

As others have mentioned it's all about your personal perspective. We got one guy here who says he works 100+ hours a week. I am sure I would appear to be less than hardworking to him as I am simply not going to do that. In my personal experience that is not the way to go. At some point you hit the law of diminishing returns and a lot of that time spent is kind of useless. Plus the burnout potential would be huge for me. But then again since I am willing to actually work more than 40 hours I would appear hardworking to someone that isn't willing to put in more than 40.

On the honesty thing I simply don't know. I haven't met anyone here in person so even people I have come to think of as trustworthy could be sandbagging me and how would I know? I won't til I give them money really. And I think assuming this crowd is representative of a cross section of society is wrong. We are a subset of a subset group of people. The deeper you go into subsets of groups the more likely you are to find a polarized population. So it's possible that by the time you boil down the mix to this subset you get more hucksters landing here. I think that's especially true when we look into the MMO micro niche. Does that mean everyone who does that is a liar or fraud? Absolutely not. Does it mean that there are likely more hucksters there than in say the Amazon affiliate micro niche? I wouldn't be surprised. Would you?

As an example of my subset theory I sold cars at one time. One day a young couple walks in, newborn in tow, and they just need some decent transportation. They want to pay cash for a used car and for 1986 they had a decent amount to spend. So we had a female salesman who got them and talked them into a car that had a bonus attached for selling it on top of the normal commission. As she's driving it out oil is streaming out of the engine. So instead of telling the buyers what does the lot do? They have the lot guy go out and rinse away the oil. All the sales people see this and I seem to be the only one offended. The car breaks down, of course, about 2 blocks from the dealership. She tells them it's out of gas and gets the lot to go get it. They come back and she is getting them to sign for the car full well knowing the engine is complete swiss cheese. So when she goes back to "talk to the manager" I go over to the couple and tell them why the car really stopped and I advise them to leave now. They did and so did I, never to return. Now why did I tell that story? Because when we look at the overarching group sales we probably find mostly hardworking, relatively honest people. It's when we drill down into those subsets that we find where the hucksters end up in force. And IM is so full of different subsets it's hard to say really where that leaves us here.
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Unread 25th June 2010, 11:18 AM   #37
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post
Are the people who say 99% of Warriors are liars saying they're 100% dishonest 100% of the time?

Are Warriors trying to be honest, or dishonest? Are they trying to scam people or not scam people? Are they concerned about their reputations, or not concerned about their reputations? And the list goes on...

I believe, generally speaking, that Warriors are a pretty decent bunch, and when people say 80%+ are not, then, yes, I disagree.

All the best,
Michael

The problem with narrowing it down to "Warriors" is that literally anyone on the Internet can be a "Warrior" and there are plenty here who are here to make a fast buck whether it be honestly or dishonestly.

The Warrior Forum isn't some exclusive club where only honest people congregate to do business. The doors are open to all. I'd rather do business here than just about any other forum, particularly one like DP, but like Steven, there are few that I would trust ... just because they are a Warrior Forum member. I've had my share of questionable JV offers and I've had people from here buy a bunch of my $27 niche sites only to immediately file a Paypal dispute to get them all for free. I can't tell you how many times that has happened.

There are tons of sites that sell people's WSO products and I suspect that they are members here and monitor the WSO and are serial refunders ... just to get the products to sell.

The WSO forum, while in the beginning it meant a special offer to Warriors, often now means a way to make a fast buck on products that clearly were just launched to part people from their money rather than provide value to their customers.

Internet Marketing as a whole, not just on the Warrior Forum has a very bad reputation. It didn't get that way without a reason. The FTC didn't find it necessary to crack down on Flogs, fake testimonials, fake reviews, false income claims without a reason. It wasn't just a government conspiracy. Lots of people have been scammed out of lots of money.

Certainly, many of them aren't the brightest pennies in the pot to believe some of the claims I've seen, but it doesn't matter. The FTC aims to protect them anyway.

That being said, there are probably more people on this forum that I respect than on most forums, but there are many people that I don't trust as far as I can throw them and thousands that I just don't even know at all ... they just lurk.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 11:36 AM   #38
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Michael the last 2 Threads i have read of yours lately have had a lot of percentages in them, Go figure.

Colin; Were you one of Obamas speach writers? geez i feel like going out and Taking over the world after reading some of your posts ( Note to self: NEVER DEBATE WITH COLIN THERIOT)

I want to believe most people are inherintly honest, Hard working ? no thats a smaller numbers as far as I am concerned

Big changes on WF in the last 2 years and yet I still love it here feels like home.
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Unread 25th June 2010, 11:48 AM   #39
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Colin; Were you one of Obamas speach writers? geez i feel like going out and Taking over the world after reading some of your posts ( Note to self: NEVER DEBATE WITH COLIN THERIOT)
Lol, thanks. That made my day! No, I wasn't one of his speech writers, but if he's shopping around, I'm up for it (if he can afford me).

As far as debating goes, I only get really into it if I think the visible discussion is going to contribute to the forum as a whole. I believe in the Socratic method of learning and I think debate is a powerful teaching too, but more importantly a LEARNING tool.

One of the most damaging things I think has happened to modern "education" is that it's predominantly indoctrination, where the students must accept what's taught without question.

Sadly, this is mostly because the teachers have no expertise besides teaching from a book and lesson plan, so they can't even reasonably discuss the topics they purport to teach.

This is the real reason debate has fallen out of school, and I think it's to the great detriment of EVERYONE. I will argue with someone until they convince me I'm wrong or they give up. That's exercise for the brain just the same as you won't get physically fit until you feel the burn.

I don't believe in "agree to disagree" until I feel I've adequately presented my own case. Because if I really think you're wrong, not saying so is a kind of dishonesty against the principles this forum is supposed to be about. At least, that's how I think about it.

But I'm rambling again - people keep saying I'm awesome at debating. It's too bad I'm so apolitical.

Fair warning: It's possible I'm arguing with you because I have nothing better to do.
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Unread 25th June 2010, 11:50 AM   #40
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

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Split the question up because the numbers, in my view, are way different.

from my experience, I'd say about 75% of warriors are Honest and genuine people.

When it comes to hard working, I'd say about 2 or 3 %.

When I say hard working, I mean working a day job from 7AM to 6PM...having a Number 2 with a Coke on the ride home....coming home and working until 4AM.

I work full time online and have for the past 5 years. It's 7AM until at least 11PM for me every day. I work 6 days per week taking Tuesdays off every week. I also usually take a "vacation" once a month of about 4 days.

People come on the internet because they think they can make millions working an hour a week. That's simply not the case. In order to succeed, you must have your head down working 18 hours + per day for at least 18 months.


well, I think you're being judgemental with your statement because you can work hard for 4 hours and get the same or more accomplished than someone else who takes 12 hours to do the same tasks. Just because people don't work as many hours as you do doesn't mean they are lazy asses.

I've come to the conclusion that what you focus on is what you draw into your life. If you focus on how bad people are, or how dishonest, etc., you're going to attract that kind of people.

I would venture a guess that there are way more good, honest, hard-working people here than you think. So with that in mind, I'm voting 85-90% honest people and 60-70% hard-working...
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Unread 25th June 2010, 11:58 AM   #41
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

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Mike, why don't you ask a hard question?

I have no way of knowing who on this forum is honest and/or hard working.

Through my life I've met folks who thought they were working hard while doing much less than someone else who thought they were doing relatively nothing.

I've met people who appeared to be totally honest and ethical in their professional lives but were provably dishonest in their personal lives.

This board is made up of people. People will be what they will be whether online or offline.

We judge the honesty and work ethic of others relative to our own standards. I think we also temper our judgments based on our opinion of another. We're more likely to give benefit of doubt to someone we like over someone we don't care for.

Finally, without a firm, agreed to by all, standard there will be differences of opinion as to who, here or anywhere, is honest and/or hard working.

One can be an honest and lazy layabout.
One can be a dishonest lazy layabout.
One can be a hard worker whether honest or dishonest.

As to assigning percentages of WF members who meet some standard for honesty and/or work ethic it will be no less than 0% and certainly no greater than 100%.

Elmer
I haven't read the entire thread but the single word that rang in my head from the beginning was "perception"!

Elmer, Thanks for how you expanded on that thought so well.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 12:03 PM   #42
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Default I think most are honest, hard working, however...

Even if it were 99% of Warriors who fit the bill...it still isn't all that revelvant to IM success.

Work hard for specific results...adjust. Now HARD work is subjective. Nothing to do with how many hours are put in.

As a teaching golf professional I had a lot of hard working students who did not show improvement BECAUSE THEY repeated their mistakes...they practiced their WRONG way of doing it to perfection.

Most Warriors are honest in my opinion.

Most newbs come on with little to NO understanding of basic business knowledge and without any real world face to face sales skills. Having those makes the whole IM process much easier.

Also, many Warriors over complicate the whole thing. I think this is one way the small minority of Cruds work, they complicate their offers and when a newb fails, it is because the newb couldn't follow directions...probably because it is just BS anyhow.

I'll go 90% or higher.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 12:07 PM   #43
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

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Lol, thanks. That made my day! No, I wasn't one of his speech writers, but if he's shopping around, I'm up for it (if he can afford me).

As far as debating goes, I only get really into it if I think the visible discussion is going to contribute to the forum as a whole. I believe in the Socratic method of learning and I think debate is a powerful teaching too, but more importantly a LEARNING tool.

One of the most damaging things I think has happened to modern "education" is that it's predominantly indoctrination, where the students must accept what's taught without question.

Sadly, this is mostly because the teachers have no expertise besides teaching from a book and lesson plan, so they can't even reasonably discuss the topics they purport to teach.

This is the real reason debate has fallen out of school, and I think it's to the great detriment of EVERYONE. I will argue with someone until they convince me I'm wrong or they give up. That's exercise for the brain just the same as you won't get physically fit until you feel the burn.

I don't believe in "agree to disagree" until I feel I've adequately presented my own case. Because if I really think you're wrong, not saying so is a kind of dishonesty against the principles this forum is supposed to be about. At least, that's how I think about it.

But I'm rambling again - people keep saying I'm awesome at debating. It's too bad I'm so apolitical.
I am going to have to disagree with you here on a point or two.

I don't think debate has fallen out of favor because teachers are incompetent. And I don't think they teach from the book because they are incompetent. They are forced to because so many dollars ride on standardized test performance. They are forced to get the square pegs into the round holes and that doesn't leave much time for extras. I don't find laying these ills at the feet teachers who don't decide policy and only have these kids part time to be at all productive or particularly on point. It all starts at home. From who does make policy to what the perceived value of education is. When we get home straight then we can start looking at other reasons. But first the 800lb gorilla must be dealt with.
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Unread 25th June 2010, 12:09 PM   #44
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

Majority is honest, hard working my friend....

I read somewhere that there are very FEW bad people in this world..
problem is they come and meet you again and again and it seems that
they are everywhere which is not the case....

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Unread 25th June 2010, 12:10 PM   #45
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

- 75% honest
- 20% hard-working
- 20% focused

Honest + hard-working: 15%

Honest + hard-working + focused: 3%

Remaining 97% likely to fail.

Math seems sound on my end.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 12:11 PM   #46
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

War Room Members lie less me thinks :-)
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Unread 25th June 2010, 12:24 PM   #47
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

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I am going to have to disagree with you here on a point or two.

I don't think debate has fallen out of favor because teachers are incompetent. And I don't think they teach from the book becasue they are incompetent. They are forced to because so many dollars ride on standardized test performance. They are forced to get the square pegs into the round holes and that doesn't leave much time for extras. I don't find laying these ills at the feet teachers who don't decide policy and only have these kids part time to be at all productive or particularly on point. It all starts at home. From who does make policy to what the perceived value of education is. When we get home straight then we can start looking at other reasons. But first the 800lb gorilla must be dealt with.
Coming from a public school system in the 3rd worst state in the U.S. I have to say you're totally wrong.

I have a relative who is now in administration where she's been part of the district so long she's seen the stupidest kids in the school when she taught them are the ones that end up teaching, because as a degree, it's easy to get, and it's a great government job with security, benefits, and built-in vacation.

And to think that the teachers have no say in the policy is absurd. The teachers union is one of the largest and most influential in the country. If you don't think they interfere in government, again, you have no idea at all what you're talking about.

I couldn't even tell you how much I've heard about federal grant money that could be used in schools FOR FREE but just flies by because a teacher can't be bothered to apply or do the paperwork.

They are not at service to our children, they are at service of keeping them quiet and still so they can go home by 3pm.

The terrible education system has gone on so long that the dummies it produces have been feed back into the system as its engineers. If you don't know this or believe this, you must be older than I am, or maybe not have kids in public school.

If education lays at the parents feet what the hell do we have public schools for? The teachers are supposed to be smarter than the students, bare minimum. They should be smarter than most of the parents too, at least about their subject of tutelage.

It does BEGIN at home, but I've had teachers in school who taught about how Philip of Macadamia ruled the ancient world - because the idiot teaching the class couldn't get out of there fast enough to go coach girl's volleyball.

I've had geography teachers that can't be bothered to pronounce the names of countries from out of a book that HAS a pronunciation guide IN THE BOOK.

Standardized tests exist because the problem with idiot teachers was getting so bad, they needed a way to make sure they could check on whether the kids were learning ANYTHING.

The QUALITY of teachers has been drastically reduced, while the QUANTITY has gone way up, because it's easy to get trained for, and afore mentioned sweetass job perks.

I don't want to derail the thread though - My mom was a teacher, I know some good teachers - ask em. They work with a bunch of idiots, who vote in idiot administrators to run the whole idiot show.

Of course, 90% of the people out there are idiots, so it's a hard problem - they need to figure out how to adequately incentivize the smartest among us to take on the job of teaching the most people to be the smartest.

But it's probably a moot point since culturally, we prize youth over experience and wisdom, speed over patience, gratification over gratitude. Our media is saturated with it and it saturates us.

Because of that very media, we've destroyed the promise of democracy because now the mass of idiots will NEVER vote for the smart person who will make the uncomfortable sacrifices necessary for the greater good.

Damn. I'm not being as optimistic as I thought. Maybe I need a beer or something.

Fair warning: It's possible I'm arguing with you because I have nothing better to do.
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Unread 25th June 2010, 12:29 PM   #48
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

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The number of people here at this forum who, if they PM'd me and asked me to do a JV with them, I actually trust to do one...I could count those people on one hand.
But see, here's the other side of that.

The people you WOULD trust to do it are certainly fewer than the people you COULD trust to do it.

I'm currently embroiled in four JVs with appointments to discuss two more by Monday.

Last week, I had two of the three JVs I was doing then fall through. I couldn't trust those people to do what needed to be done. And, honestly, I didn't think I could either.

But I did anyway.

People surprise you. If you get so bound up in the bad experiences that you won't let them surprise you in good ways anymore, I honestly think you lose a lot more than you would if you just went ahead and let those bad experiences keep happening.

I like good surprises. But in order to get them at all, you have to take risks, and you have to accept that there will be bad surprises too.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 12:31 PM   #49
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

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- 75% honest
- 20% hard-working
- 20% focused

Honest + hard-working: 15%

Honest + hard-working + focused: 3%

Remaining 97% likely to fail.

Math seems sound on my end.
You and your darn percentages!!!! Seems accurate though.

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Unread 25th June 2010, 12:44 PM   #50
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Default Re: What percentage of people on here do you think are HONEST, HARD WORKING PEOPLE?

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Coming from a public school system in the 3rd worst state in the U.S. I have to say you're totally wrong.

I have a relative who is now in administration where she's been part of the district so long she's seen the stupidest kids in the school when she taught them are the ones that end up teaching, because as a degree, it's easy to get, and it's a great government job with security, benefits, and built-in vacation.

And to think that the teachers have no say in the policy is absurd. The teachers union is one of the largest and most influential in the country. If you don't think they interfere in government, again, you have no idea at all what you're talking about.

I couldn't even tell you how much I've heard about federal grant money that could be used in schools FOR FREE but just flies by because a teacher can't be bothered to apply or do the paperwork.

They are not at service to our children, they are at service of keeping them quiet and still so they can go home by 3pm.

The terrible education system has gone on so long that the dummies it produces have been feed back into the system as its engineers. If you don't know this or believe this, you must be older than I am, or maybe not have kids in public school.

If education lays at the parents feet what the hell do we have public schools for? The teachers are supposed to be smarter than the students, bare minimum. They should be smarter than most of the parents too, at least about their subject of tutelage.

It does BEGIN at home, but I've had teachers in school who taught about how Philip of Macadamia ruled the ancient world - because the idiot teaching the class couldn't get out of there fast enough to go coach girl's volleyball.

I've had geography teachers that can't be bothered to pronounce the names of countries from out of a book that HAS a pronunciation guide IN THE BOOK.

Standardized tests exist because the problem with idiot teachers was getting so bad, they needed a way to make sure they could check on whether the kids were learning ANYTHING.

The QUALITY of teachers has been drastically reduced, while the QUANTITY has gone way up, because it's easy to get trained for, and afore mentioned sweetass job perks.

I don't want to derail the thread though - My mom was a teacher, I know some good teachers - ask em. They work with a bunch of idiots, who vote in idiot administrators to run the whole idiot show.

Of course, 90% of the people out there are idiots, so it's a hard problem - they need to figure out how to adequately incentivize the smartest among us to take on the job of teaching the most people to be the smartest.

But it's probably a moot point since culturally, we prize youth over experience and wisdom, speed over patience, gratification over gratitude. Our media is saturated with it and it saturates us.

Because of that very media, we've destroyed the promise of democracy because now the mass of idiots will NEVER vote for the smart person who will make the uncomfortable sacrifices necessary for the greater good.

Damn. I'm not being as optimistic as I thought. Maybe I need a beer or something.

Colin, my wife, a math teacher of 25 plus years, has fought against
this horrible school system we have (and she'll be the first to admit it)
for years.

It isn't as easy as you think. There is a lot of bureaucracy that is as
stubborn as it is stupid. And when she makes waves, she ends up by
being "punished", banished to teach the worst classes and given the
worst schedule.

The school system today, at least in NJ, is interested in one thing and one
thing only...getting the students to pass the HSPA or whatever other
standardized test they have to pass in order to satisfy the state. That
essentially means, teaching the test and everything else is immaterial.

She has no choice but to follow this policy, though at this stage, with
tenure, she can't be fired. But she can have her life made miserable. And
it has been.

The teachers are not to blame. It's the miserable system that they work
for that is. And to think that this is easy to change shows that you know
very little about the public school system...at least where I live.



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