Wealth Redistribution Explained... or Vote Obama, I Need The Money...

by TE2
63 replies
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Just received this in an email and decided to share it.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

Yesterday on my way to lunch, I passed one of the homeless guys in the area, with a sign that read 'Vote Obama, I need the money.'

Once in the restaurant my waiter had on an 'Obama 08' tee shirt.

When the bill came, I decided not to tip the waiter and explained to him while he had given me exceptional service, that his tee shirt made me feel he obviously believes in Senator Obama's plan to redistribute the wealth. I told him I was going to redistribute his tip to someone that I deemed more in need--the homeless guy outside. He stood there in disbelief and angrily stormed away.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $3 and told him to thank the waiter inside, as I had decided he could use the money more. The homeless guy looked at me in disbelief but seemed grateful.

As I got in my car, I realized this rather unscientific redistribution experiment had left the homeless guy quite happy for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn.

Well, I guess this redistribution of wealth is going to take a while to catch on with those doing the work.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

John
#obama #wealth redistribution
  • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
    Originally Posted by TE2 View Post

    he obviously believes in Senator Obama's plan to redistribute the wealth.
    What plan is this, exactly? McCain would re-distribute the wealth upwards, as usual; Obama might re-distribute it upwards at a slightly slower pace than McCain would. Whatever.

    I don't understand why people can't care less if their tax dollars are habitually distrbuted upward to the wealthiest 1%, but freak out at the very thought that a few of those dollars might actually go to some homeless people or something.

    I understand even less why people think there's a huge difference between what Obama and McCain would do if elected. There are definitely some significant differences, but essentially it's going to be business as usual either way.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Kind of confusing Ken. There are significant differences, but business as usual either way? Which is it?

      Originally Posted by KenStrong View Post


      I understand even less why people think there's a huge difference between what Obama and McCain would do if elected. There are definitely some significant differences, but essentially it's going to be business as usual either way.
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  • Profile picture of the author espacecadet
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by espacecadet View Post

      The waiter made his choice by wearing that shirt. And you made your choice, and good for you for telling the waiter where his tip would go!

      Thank you for doing that!
      He didn't do it. It was an email sent to him. Hello.

      I doubt this actually happened anyways. Sounds like another made up viral email.
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    • Profile picture of the author TE2
      Originally Posted by espacecadet View Post

      Excellent, John! That prissy-assed waiter wouldn't have batted an eye at a $3 tip, but a simple $3 means the world to the homeless guy. He can finally get something to eat.

      The waiter made his choice by wearing that shirt. And you made your choice, and good for you for telling the waiter where his tip would go!

      Thank you for doing that!
      You are very welcome.

      Keep in mind that was not my story but an email I received. However, it does provoke thought regardless of being fact or fiction.

      For the record - I have helped the homeless and less fortunate many times and will continue to do so. I having been approached many times and asked for 50 cents or a dollar so they could get something to eat or drink. I typically take them into the restaurant and buy them an entire meal.

      My version of wealth redistribution is this:
      • I decide what and how much to donate
      • I prefer to give directly to those in need
      • I donate about once per month to Goodwill
      Anyone care to guess my party affiliation?

      Regards,

      John
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    • Profile picture of the author TE2
      Originally Posted by Michael Ellis View Post

      Awesome article Michael! Thanks for posting.

      I find this excerpt...

      "To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully," the Democratic presidential candidate wrote in his memoir, "Dreams From My Father." "The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists."

      ...and what followed it to be very interesting.

      The truth about Obama is coming out.

      Regards,

      John
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Baptist?
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    • Profile picture of the author TE2
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Baptist?
      ROFLMAO but Nope...

      Baptists are not allowed to party. LOL

      Thanks for the smile,

      John
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      • Profile picture of the author ShayB
        Originally Posted by TE2 View Post

        Baptists are not allowed to party. LOL
        Yes, we are!

        We just can't dance while partying....

        Or drink....
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        • Profile picture of the author TE2
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          No, he's "that one".

          Dan has a point. All taxes are a way to redistibute wealth.

          Warren Buffet ain't no Marxist and either is Obama.
          Originally Posted by Shay60654 View Post

          Yes, we are!

          We just can't dance while partying....

          Or drink....
          Aye Captain Shay,

          Yes - you can drink...

          Punch is allowed as I remember my best friends wedding reception.
          Cake and punch were the menu.

          John
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            I don't know about Warren Buffet ...
            You don't know about Warren Buffet? If you don't know he is a capitalist, then there's no hope for you. He's a top advisor for Obama also, so he is relevant.

            But keep going with your ridiculous smearing. It's what the Republicans do best. They don't do anything else good, but when it comes to smearing dirty BS lying campaigns, my hats off to you. You guys are the best!
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            • Profile picture of the author TE2
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              he is relevant.
              Yup, he's a capitalist! 100% and a very smart one. I suspect he supports Obama to better line his own pockets.


              But keep going with your ridiculous smearing. It's what the Republicans do best. They don't do anything else good, but when it comes to smearing dirty BS lying campaigns, my hats off to you. You guys are the best!
              Now that's funny. I am an Independent. I was a democrat but got tired of all the BS crap that was preached. I decided to vote for issues - not parties.

              BTW - I think the Dems are way better at smearing people. The Repubs just do it in defense most of the time.

              John

              ps - If it's Obamas own words in his own books - how is that smearing?

              pps - Wait, I know the answer... typical Dem tactic. Do unto others and then claim they did it. It makes them feel better because "it's not them", "it's somebody else's fault", "I'm a victim", "he's a victim", "she's a victim", "Waaaa...."
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                BTW - I think the Dems are way better at smearing people. The Repubs just do it in defense most of the time.
                Now, that is funny. Atwater, Rove and Schmidt are legends for the smearing. You're a good boy for passing along an obvious email smearing campaign.

                If you are concerned about issues, why not bring up real issues? Not this ridiculous, laughable, desperate Maxist BS.
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                • Profile picture of the author TE2
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  Now, that is funny. Atwater, Rove and Schmidt are legends for the smearing. You're a good boy for passing along an obvious email smearing campaign.

                  If you are concerned about issues, why not bring up real issues? Not this ridiculous, laughable, desperate Maxist BS.
                  You just made my point - Keep repeating "it's them, it's them, it's them..."

                  Talk about Kool-aid drinkers... time for your drink Tim.

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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    Originally Posted by TE2 View Post

                    You just made my point - Keep repeating "it's them, it's them, it's them..."

                    Talk about Kool-aid drinkers... time for your drink Tim.

                    You are the one drinking the kool aid, copying and pasting dumb emails that make you look foolish. That's my point.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TE2
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      You are the one drinking the kool aid, copying and pasting dumb emails that make you look foolish. That's my point.
                      Typical Lib response Tim... when you don't agree - attack!

                      Once again, you have proven my theory.

                      You're replies are the best advertising a non-liberal could ask for - Keep up the good work!

                      I think I'll go watch CNN and then FOX - then make up my own mind. :p

                      John
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                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                        You guys want to see how John, Mr. "I don't drink the kool-aid" is actually doing just that? Here's a search for the first sentence in his email he just happened to get:

                        Yesterday on my way to lunch, I passed one of the homeless guys in the area, with a sign that read 'Vote Obama, I need the money. - Google Search

                        Seems 128,000 of these same stories are being posted on other forums, blogs, websites etc...

                        Wow, real independant thinking displayed by John. Nice way to drink the Republican talking points Kool-Aid. LOL.
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                        • Profile picture of the author D.K. Magnus
                          Talking about wealth redistribution is alot like talking about not raising taxes.


                          No one really got a "tax cut", the money was spent, it is still owed and someone someday will have to pay it.
                          Taxes were deferred and the tax burden shifted toward the middleclass.

                          Everytime the national debt goes up, taxes go up. We just haven't payed them yet.

                          And everytime the debt goes up, the interest that is owed on that debt goes up.

                          The money that is added to the debt, depending on how it is used , may benefit the majority or if it may be used to help a minority, such as happens when it is used to bailout financial institutions(other than banks).

                          Wealth is always being redistributed.


                          It's seems to always be a matter of "whose ox is being gored".
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                          • Profile picture of the author D.K. Magnus
                            Link to a report on a GAO study of the corporate tax burden.

                            Hope the link is added.



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                          • Profile picture of the author TE2
                            Originally Posted by D.K. Magnus View Post

                            Talking about wealth redistribution is alot like talking about not raising taxes.


                            No one really got a "tax cut", the money was spent, it is still owed and someone someday will have to pay it.
                            Taxes were deferred and the tax burden shifted toward the middleclass.

                            Everytime the national debt goes up, taxes go up. We just haven't payed them yet.

                            And everytime the debt goes up, the interest that is owed on that debt goes up.

                            The money that is added to the debt, depending on how it is used , may benefit the majority or if it may be used to help a minority, such as happens when it is used to bailout financial institutions(other than banks).

                            Wealth is always being redistributed.


                            It's seems to always be a matter of "whose ox is being gored".

                            Excellent point D.K.

                            Now this is something we should talk about!

                            Personally, I opposed the bail out package. All they did was put it on our credit card.

                            John
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                • Profile picture of the author TE2
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  ...why not bring up real issues? Not this ridiculous, laughable, desperate Maxist BS.
                  So when are YOU going to bring up some real issues?

                  You know the ones that Liberals are campaigning on, such as:
                  • Sarah Palins wardrobe cost
                  • Cindy McCain's history from 20+ years ago
                  • How many homes the McCain's own
                  • The high price of gas (oops, stopped talking about it since prices have fallen at record pace)
                  • The war in Irag (oops, they aren't talking about it since the surge worked)
                  • Joe the Plumber (oops, they stopped, he got to the truth about Obamas plan for your income)
                  I wonder why they don't talk about real issues?

                  When is Obama going to stop playing word games and provide some actual details instead of eloquent rhetoric?

                  How about it, let's talk about real issues that matter to you, me, and the rest of our fellow Americans care about.

                  I can tell you that I am not a McCain supporter but I do think he's a better choice than Obama.

                  IMHO, we are once again left with trying to choose the lesser of two evils.

                  I truly wish there was a "viable" third candidate.

                  Regards,

                  John
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              • Profile picture of the author KimW
                Originally Posted by TE2 View Post

                BTW - I think the Dems are way better at smearing people. The Repubs just do it in defense most of the time.

                It's amazing how many repubs actually seem to believe this,even when it is so patently false.
                I don't need anyone to tell me which side is doing it,all I have to do, at least here in Virginia, is watch some tv ( I actually watch very little tv ) or open my mailbox.
                The worst ALWAYS comes from the repubs. This is not opinion, it's fact.
                PS: I'm not a democrat either, I actually would have voted repub for the first time in my life this election if they have nominated the right choice.
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                • Profile picture of the author TE2
                  Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                  It's amazing how many repubs actually seem to believe this,even when it is so patently false.
                  I don't need anyone to tell me which side is doing it,all I have to do, at least here in Virginia, is watch some tv ( I actually watch very little tv ) or open my mailbox.
                  The worst ALWAYS comes from the repubs. This is not opinion, it's fact.
                  PS: I'm not a democrat either, I actually would have voted repub for the first time in my life this election if they have nominated the right choice.
                  Kim,

                  Your post seems to imply that you always vote Democrat.

                  If you have never voted for a Republican then you might not be an Independent.

                  I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here... help me help you.

                  Who would have been the correct Republican candidate?

                  Better yet, who would your pick have been regardless of party?

                  John
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
    Funny how you drink the FOX News kool-aid but have the tagline "Not A Kool-Aid Drinker". FOX News is just part of the Republican campaign machine, as always.

    Is McCain going to abolish the tax system? No? What a socialist! He's redistributing your wealth!

    Is McCain going to abolish social security, medicare and medicaid? No? What a socialist! He's redistributing your wealth!

    Is McCain going to abolish the federal student loan program? No? What a socialist! He's redistributing your wealth!

    ...etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author TE2
      Originally Posted by Dan Grossman View Post

      Funny how you drink the FOX News kool-aid but have the tagline "Not A Kool-Aid Drinker". FOX News is just part of the Republican campaign machine, as always.

      Is McCain going to abolish the tax system? No? What a socialist! He's redistributing your wealth!

      Is McCain going to abolish social security, medicare and medicaid? No? What a socialist! He's redistributing your wealth!

      Is McCain going to abolish the federal student loan program? No? What a socialist! He's redistributing your wealth!

      ...etc.
      Nope - not drinking FOX Kool-aid. The truth about Obama was written by... Barack H. Obama in his two books: "Dreams of My Father" and "The Audacity of Hope"

      Sometimes the truth hurts!

      John

      ps - He is NOT "The One"
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Originally Posted by TE2 View Post

        ps - He is NOT "The One"
        No, he's "that one".

        Dan has a point. All taxes are a way to redistibute wealth.

        Warren Buffet ain't no Marxist and either is Obama.
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        • Profile picture of the author TE2
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          No, he's "that one".
          Who you gonna believe Oprah or McCain?


          Dan has a point. All taxes are a way to redistibute wealth.
          I disagree - taxes to pay for schools, roadways, public infrastructure, etc... are not redistribution.

          Business Dictionary defines "Redistribution of Wealth" as:

          The central tenet of most modern economies whereby a nation's wealth is channeled, from those who have more to those below a certain income level, through taxes that pay for welfare benefits.


          Warren Buffet ain't no Marxist and either is Obama.
          I don't know about Warren Buffet (he's not running for any office that I am aware of) but Obama is certainly doing his best to be one. Read his books. Se what he says about himself.

          Definition of Marxism: The economic, social, political, pseudo-scientific philosophy, theory, belief, or system based on the works of Karl Marx of Germany. The theory seeks the elimination of the notion of private property in order to gain control of the economic "means of production" by taking it from the bourgeois (the wealthy or propertied class) for the benefit of the proletariat (working class.) His philosophy of history was called "historical materialism" in which his goal was to bring about the end of history, by means of an eventual perfect, classless, utopian society he called Communism.

          Marxist notions of collectivization and redistribution of the property of the bourgeois puts it on a collision course with the economic philosophy of Capitalism and free markets, and also with the social-governmental philosophies related to Democracy, in the oldest, pre-Marxism sense of that word.

          Marxism seeks to promote class warfare or, today, at least, class strife, and succeeds best where clear, major delineations exist between classes. Since the USA has an enormous natural "middle class" and little or no obvious delineation between classes, Marxism has only made inroads there among the Secularist Liberal Intellectual Media Complex, which represents a very small but vocal minority that has a very high visibility, and a lot of influence. At the moment, the majority still rules in the USA.



          What class is Obama pitching to?

          What does he want to do with their money?

          I think it's pretty clear what he is.

          Regards,

          John
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          What plan is this, exactly?
          Obama outlined it himself a couple weeks ago and referred to "redistributing the wealth" and he also has mentioned it as early as a 2001 interview and in his books. He has called it "reparation" and "redistribution" and "change" - it's not a secret as he's talked about it more than once.

          Saying "All taxes redistribute wealth" doesn't answer this. The taxes pay for a lot of crap but also for the government we elect, for our infrastructure and for defense. There is some redistribution in the area of entitlement programs but the main purpose of taxation is not the "leveling" of income.

          I don't know that Obama could do it. However, it is something he thinks should be done and he has clearly said so. Obama defined "wealthy" as those earning over 250k a year - today his running mate defined it as those making over 150k a year. Neither has defined the limit below which they consider people to be "poor" or who will profit from the "redistribution".

          In reality, I think pet programs of either candidate will take a back seat after the election to a failing economy, soaring jobless rate, deflation and a poor housing market.

          He said it - he means it. I don't think it's anything like Marxist or other labels. Many Obama supporters fully agree with this idea - and say so.
          I'm not supporting McCain - don't agree with his plans either. But I do believe Obama is serious about what amounts to a Robin Hood tax plan.

          Every campaign is filled with "tax plans" talk and seldom do the candidates do what they promised after they are elected. Bush, Sr, said "no new taxes" - and added taxes. Clinton said "won't raise taxes" and raised taxes soon after the election.

          Plans have a way of meeting reality once the votes are counted.

          kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
    It's not going to be repaid by a future generation, the debt will just grow until the US defaults and we become a 3rd world country.

    When I vote, I'm picking who I think will be better for me in the meantime.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    The best republican candicate was Ron Paul.
    As for my vote, most have been dems, but not all, I have written in names a few times and I have voted for 3rd party candidates before.
    The sad thing is that my vote usually goes for the lesser of two evils.
    What this country needs is a political overthrow.
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    • Profile picture of the author TE2
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      The best republican candicate was Ron Paul.
      As for my vote, most have been dems, but not all, I have written in names a few times and I have voted for 3rd party candidates before.
      The sad thing is that my vote usually goes for the lesser of two evils.
      What this country needs is a political overthrow.
      Kim,

      I love you! (figuratively - this isn't a proposal)

      Ron Paul would have been my pick. I don't agree with him on a few things, but overall - I like his policies.

      Maybe in 4 years...

      John

      ps - I am for voting out most of 'em - we need someone working for us and not themselves.
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by TE2 View Post

        Kim,

        I love you! (figuratively - this isn't a proposal)

        Ron Paul would have been my pick. I don't agree with him on a few things, but overall - I like his policies.

        Maybe in 4 years...

        John

        ps - I am for voting out most of 'em - we need someone working for us and not themselves.
        Hey, I hope not, I'm a dude!
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        • Profile picture of the author TE2
          Originally Posted by KimW View Post

          Hey, I hope not, I'm a dude!
          Yikes!

          My bad... I apologize.

          John
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by TE2 View Post

            Yikes!

            My bad... I apologize.

            John
            lol, np, I'm used to it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              There is something about political debate that I've never understood - and it comes from candidates as well as supporters.

              The thread is about Obama's comments and views on wealth distribution.

              However, the answers from strong Obama supporters is "but McCain does this" or "so-and-so does that" - as if this answers or justifies redistribution of wealth that Obama clearly talked about. Obama's goal is not a myth or vague - he has stated it many times. Why is it that anyone discussing it is automatically "stupid" or "anti-Obama"? Why is it you can't discuss this particular issue without attacking what others say?

              Either you support Obama's plan/goal to redistribute wealth by taking more than is currently taken from one group of citizens and giving it to another group of citizens - or you don't.

              Is it your position that those who have built up a small business should be required to give more of their income in the form of taxes that will be "redistributed" to those who don't work at all? Clearly, with entitlement programs currently in place, some redistribution already occurs and has for a long time.

              Fact is, requiring more tax of small business owners will have one immdiate result - they will reduce their workforce. Result would be job loss affecting the middle class. Thus the burden of providing more wealth to those inner city poor people that Obama has targeted throughout his career would come on the backs of all other working citizens. Is there any logic in that?

              Are you in favor of more redistribution - or not? Would you want that redistribution to be in the form of work programs, job training, or would you be comfortable sending a check instead?

              Do you believe that giving unearned income to the poor helps their situation - or does it prolong their dependency? Much is said in the campaigns about public works projects to create jobs - but no one has mentioned requiring work of the poor who are on the receiving end of government checks.

              Should we just pretend that Obama didn't say this many times - or that he doesn't mean what he says? Wouldn't it be better to take a close look at it before it becomes the norm rather than after the fact?

              kay
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              • Profile picture of the author TE2
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


                - Text deleted for brevity -

                Should we just pretend that Obama didn't say this many times - or that he doesn't mean what he says? Wouldn't it be better to take a close look at it before it becomes the norm rather than after the fact?

                kay
                Kay,

                That is one of the best posts I have ever seen on this topic. Thank you!

                It is what I was trying to stimulate via my OP.

                Regards,

                John
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                Kay, did you take a look at the link in post #29? That shows how uneven the wealth redistribution is now.

                Yes, I am in favor of rolling back the Bush tax cuts to the rich. I am for Obama's tax cuts for the middle class. I am against McCain's proposed increase in tax cuts for the corporations and wealthy. I am against McCain's proposed tax INCREASE on medical insurance benefits. ( increase from zero BTW. The first time in history medical benefits would be taxed! ).

                Obama's tax cuts won't go to people who don't work. That's false.

                I am glad to discuss the tax issues, or a specific program etc... but when people start saying Obama is a socialist and comparing his policies to Marx, this is just not a debate.

                The reason some of us Obama supporters point to what McCain and Palin say or do is to point out the hypocrisy of their statements.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                There is something about political debate that I've never understood - and it comes from candidates as well as supporters.

                The thread is about Obama's comments and views on wealth distribution.

                However, the answers from strong Obama supporters is "but McCain does this" or "so-and-so does that" - as if this answers or justifies redistribution of wealth that Obama clearly talked about. Obama's goal is not a myth or vague - he has stated it many times. Why is it that anyone discussing it is automatically "stupid" or "anti-Obama"? Why is it you can't discuss this particular issue without attacking what others say?

                Either you support Obama's plan/goal to redistribute wealth by taking more than is currently taken from one group of citizens and giving it to another group of citizens - or you don't.

                Is it your position that those who have built up a small business should be required to give more of their income in the form of taxes that will be "redistributed" to those who don't work at all? Clearly, with entitlement programs currently in place, some redistribution already occurs and has for a long time.

                Fact is, requiring more tax of small business owners will have one immdiate result - they will reduce their workforce. Result would be job loss affecting the middle class. Thus the burden of providing more wealth to those inner city poor people that Obama has targeted throughout his career would come on the backs of all other working citizens. Is there any logic in that?

                Are you in favor of more redistribution - or not? Would you want that redistribution to be in the form of work programs, job training, or would you be comfortable sending a check instead?

                Do you believe that giving unearned income to the poor helps their situation - or does it prolong their dependency? Much is said in the campaigns about public works projects to create jobs - but no one has mentioned requiring work of the poor who are on the receiving end of government checks.

                Should we just pretend that Obama didn't say this many times - or that he doesn't mean what he says? Wouldn't it be better to take a close look at it before it becomes the norm rather than after the fact?

                kay
                Kay,

                As I posted on another thread, I support the concept of Palin's "share the wealth". It is the HIPOCRACY and baseless name calling I am against, not Alaska's plan to share its wealth.

                Palin is calling Obama all sorts of names, like "Obama the socialist", while she has supported the EXACT same thing.

                The wealth is already being redistributed, to the WEALTHY. And this "share the wealth" in the context of your post is why Warren Buffet supports Obama. Warren Buffet pays a LOWER percentage of his income than his secretary does. Do you think that's fair? Buffet doesn't.

                You're pretending that we aren't already "sharing the wealth". Did you know that HALF of our military budget is spent defending big business interests overseas? Why should I have to pay to defend Exxon in the Middle East? Shouldn't they foot the bill themselves?

                And you do realize that the military is the biggest slice of the budget pie? Half of it goes to defending the rich overseas, not to defend the country.

                Another point you miss is that the Obama tax plan will tax people at about the same rate as Reagan and Clinton.

                And, I believe the better the poor in this country do, the better small business will do. It's a fact that poor people spend money and the wealthy save, which is why the trickle down theory is, and has been "voodoo economics" for almost 30 years.

                Stating that a business making over $250,000 a year will have to lay off productive employees doesn't make it true. I believe if the middle class does better, small business will do better. Sure, small business will pay more taxes, but their BOTTOM LINE will be better. And in business, the BOTTOM LINE IS THE BOTTOM LINE.

                And, if their employees pay less tax, doesn't it stand to reason that a small business can pay their employees less, while the emplooyess keep the same take home pay?

                The normal theory is the more you tax something, the more you discourage it and in reverse, the less you tax something, the more you encourage it. Therefore, by reducing taxes on the working class, you would encourage more workers.

                Can you explain why you are going against this age-old logic and say lowering income taxes on the working class would cause small business to lay them off?

                Also, both India and China are churning out about 50,000 more engineers per year than we are. That means in 20 years, each will have 1 million more engineers than us. How will we compete? How will we defend ourselves? What's your plan for this?

                Sharing SOME of the wealth with our working class, actually a small part of our wealth, is a good idea, IMO. We're not sharing it all. Some say we are punishing the wealthy...IMO, we'd be REWARDING the workers. Despite some opinions on this forum, I feel teachers, cops, construction workers, ambulanced drivers need a little help now.

                Regarding the poor, are you talking about the lazy or those that need help due to circumstances beyond their control? Or are they not working because they lost the job at the factory, but have worked for 15 years before that? Or are you speaking of a person that hasn't had a job in 15 years? Are you talking about a homeless Vietnam vet? I'm not very "liberal" when it comes to the lazy.

                Now it's your turn...Please defend McCain's tax strategy? I like Palin's in Alaska...What about McCain's?
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  • Profile picture of the author captivereef
    Since when did your wealth become a "benefit" for the government to redistribute? I believe that wealth is something that you earn. A "benefit", to the best of my knowledge, implies an act of kindness or something that promotes well-being. My wealth does not belong to the government, therefore it is not the government's job to take it in order to be kind or promote well-being.
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    • Profile picture of the author TE2
      Originally Posted by captivereef View Post

      Since when did your wealth become a "benefit" for the government to redistribute? I believe that wealth is something that you earn. A "benefit", to the best of my knowledge, implies an act of kindness or something that promotes well-being. My wealth does not belong to the government, therefore it is not the government's job to take it in order to be kind or promote well-being.
      You are spot on - 100%

      Thanks,

      John
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    • Profile picture of the author alzoub
      Your and my wealth is what you and I earn in this particular system - so you never do it alone.

      Progressive tax is redistribution of wealth, because it tales larger share for the rich. Teddy Roosevelt - Republican hero - introduced it, he also was for regulating the corporations

      My opinion is that unrestricted free market and unfair flow of money up is the real danger for capitalism. What Obama is doing, as FDR did, he is trying to save capitalism that can kill itself by enormous extremism of deregulation.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Here's a direct quote from Sarah Palin - "And Alaska--we're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs. ... It's to maximize benefits for Alaskans, not an individual company, not some multinational somewhere, but for Alaskans."

    This is called "Alaska's Clear and Equitable Share" (ACES) program...

    Or, as I like to call it, "A moose in every pot".

    I'm Sarah the Socialist and I approved this message.
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    • Profile picture of the author TE2
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Here's a direct quote from Sarah Palin - "And Alaska--we're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs. ... It's to maximize benefits for Alaskans, not an individual company, not some multinational somewhere, but for Alaskans."

      This is called "Alaska's Clear and Equitable Share" (ACES) program...

      Or, as I like to call it, "A moose in every pot".

      I'm Sarah the Socialist and I approved this message.
      I don't see what point you are making. Sharing wealth is not the same as wealth redistribution if that is what you are trying to imply.

      Thanks for the reply though.

      John
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Originally Posted by TE2 View Post

        Sharing wealth is not the same as wealth redistribution if that is what you are trying to imply.
        Sure it is. The state takes from the wealthy, the oil companies, and redistributes to the citizens.
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        • Profile picture of the author pcalvert
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Sure it is. The state takes from the wealthy, the oil companies, and redistributes to the citizens.
          No it isn't, and to call it that is a gross distortion. That would only be true if these were just ordinary companies. Oil companies profit from extracting and selling mineral wealth. The Alaskan program is much closer to an individual getting paid royalties because he's given an oil company the right to extract oil from his land, than it is to "redistributing wealth".

          Phil
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            You can call any tax "royalties" it seems to me. It's still a tax. If you want to call it royalties, that still doesn't exclude it from "redistributing wealth". I don't see any gross distortion here. Now, if I called it Marxism, that would be a distortion.

            Originally Posted by pcalvert View Post

            No it isn't, and to call it that is a gross distortion. That would only be true if these were just ordinary companies. Oil companies profit from extracting and selling mineral wealth. The Alaskan program is much closer to an individual getting paid royalties because he's given an oil company the right to extract oil from his land, than it is to "redistributing wealth".

            Phil
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  • Profile picture of the author espacecadet
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Now, you just aren't paying attention. First, I have no problem with Palin taking from the rich oil companies and giving checks to everyone. I already said that. Kurt said that.

      Second, we are only using the word "socialism" as a reponse to McCain and Palin constantly referring to Obama as a socialist. To point out the hypocrisy.

      Originally Posted by espacecadet View Post

      Kurt, Tim and Kim, I suppose that if you received a check from the ACES program you'd be so disgusted by it's socialist implications that you'd write Return To Sender on it? Uh-huh...that's what I thought. You'd cash it just like anyone else, yet you come here and spout about Socialism...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Kurt -

        I support the concept of Palin's "share the wealth"
        That's my point - you can't discuss Obama's stated goals - but just redirect to another candidate. I can't support McCain's plan - I don't support McCain. You assume I do because I question Obama and the fairness of the news media.

        The Alaskan oil revenue sharing is not Palin's - it's been going on for many years. It was the price of the rest of the country being allowed to drill and run a pipeline through Alaska. It's not news - and it's not new and Palin wasn't responsible for it.

        Business small and large respond to changes in their profit line by adjusting employees. I work part-time and just saw 45 jobs eliminated where I work. Is the profit lower? No, it isn't - but it isn't as high as they wanted it to be this year so remaining employees take on added responsibility and others lose their jobs. Another practice often used is reducing employees from full time to part time - and eliminating the cost of benefits. Where I work, after the 45 jobs were eliminated, 17 more people lost their benefits and were reduced from 40 hrs a week to 30 (part time).

        Redistribution of wealth that Obama has talked about is interesting mainly because we don't know exactly what he means or how this would be applied. If he did clarify, it might make sense to me - but his refusal to openly say how he wants to apply this plan - and who is will affect - raises concern. From reading his views in past years, my impression is the redistribution is from the top to the bottom - and not to do with the middle class at all.

        I would have no problem with a jobs program where people were actually required to do work - that repaired our infrastructure, paid a living wage and gave job training to those at the lowest end of the economic ladder. What I object to are increased government handouts that encourage dependency rather than responsibility.


        Another point you miss is that the Obama tax plan will tax people at about the same rate as Reagan and Clinton.
        I get that point - and that means higher taxes for the middle class than they now pay. Clinton vowed not to raise taxes and less than a month after he took office he raised taxes. The same thing could well happen this time.

        The normal theory is the more you tax something, the more you discourage it and in reverse, the less you tax something, the more you encourage it. Therefore, by reducing taxes on the working class, you would encourage more workers.
        I agree - but wouldn't the first part apply to businesses, too?

        Maybe I'm missing part of Obama's tax plan - but what I've heard is more tax for those over $250k (or $150k if you listen to Biden) - eliminating the Bush tax cut (which would raise taxes on the middle class as there is no balancing reduction that I've heard outlined) - and providing more wealth to the poorest sector.

        I know Obama does count some special planned tax exemptions as "tax cuts for the middle class" - but not everyone in the middle class has a kid in college now or pays child care.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Kurt -



          That's my point - you can't discuss Obama's stated goals - but just redirect to another candidate. I can't support McCain's plan - I don't support McCain. You assume I do because I question Obama and the fairness of the news media.

          The Alaskan oil revenue sharing is not Palin's - it's been going on for many years. It was the price of the rest of the country being allowed to drill and run a pipeline through Alaska. It's not news - and it's not new and Palin wasn't responsible for it.

          Business small and large respond to changes in their profit line by adjusting employees. I work part-time and just saw 45 jobs eliminated where I work. Is the profit lower? No, it isn't - but it isn't as high as they wanted it to be this year so remaining employees take on added responsibility and others lose their jobs. Another practice often used is reducing employees from full time to part time - and eliminating the cost of benefits. Where I work, after the 45 jobs were eliminated, 17 more people lost their benefits and were reduced from 40 hrs a week to 30 (part time).

          Redistribution of wealth that Obama has talked about is interesting mainly because we don't know exactly what he means or how this would be applied. If he did clarify, it might make sense to me - but his refusal to openly say how he wants to apply this plan - and who is will affect - raises concern. From reading his views in past years, my impression is the redistribution is from the top to the bottom - and not to do with the middle class at all.

          I would have no problem with a jobs program where people were actually required to do work - that repaired our infrastructure, paid a living wage and gave job training to those at the lowest end of the economic ladder. What I object to are increased government handouts that encourage dependency rather than responsibility.




          I get that point - and that means higher taxes for the middle class than they now pay. Clinton vowed not to raise taxes and less than a month after he took office he raised taxes. The same thing could well happen this time.



          I agree - but wouldn't the first part apply to businesses, too?

          Maybe I'm missing part of Obama's tax plan - but what I've heard is more tax for those over $250k (or $150k if you listen to Biden) - eliminating the Bush tax cut (which would raise taxes on the middle class as there is no balancing reduction that I've heard outlined) - and providing more wealth to the poorest sector.

          I know Obama does count some special planned tax exemptions as "tax cuts for the middle class" - but not everyone in the middle class has a kid in college now or pays child care.

          kay
          Kay,

          The point about Palin and ACES is she bragged about it in her stump speeches, then turns around and calls Obama a socialist. I'm assuming if she was against it, she wouldn't have bragged about it.

          As far as people losing their jobs where you work, Obama hasn't been elected yet. Bush should probably take the blame for that.

          You're making an assumption about Obama raising taxes on the middle class. Part of the "balance" is raising taxes on those that make $250,000+, a windfall profits tax on oil companies (almost EXACTLY like ACES) as well bringing our troops home from Iraq. I'd say that's a decent start.

          We can also reduce the military. As I said, half the budget goes to defending big business abroad and not to defending this country. And if we cut our military in half, we'd still spend way more than any other country, with the vast majority of top spenders being our allies...

          Again, if we cut our military budget in half, we'd still spend:
          5 x more than China
          6 x more than Russia

          World Wide Military Expenditures

          ...And, our military budget doesn't even include Iraq, Afghanastan, the VA or other special programs....And I'll repeat, half of our military budget is spend protecting big business abroad, not our country.

          Why should we pay for big businesses security abroad? Let's share this wealth.

          Why do we need to spend more than the rest of the World combined on military? Especially since most of the World is our ally.

          As far as education, Obama's plan will give tax credits to those that want to go to state/public schools, IN EXCHANGE for service to "country or community". Bascially, if you are willing to work to help your neighborhood or your country, he'll give you an education. It's far from a handout.
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by espacecadet View Post

      Kurt, Tim and Kim, I suppose that if you received a check from the ACES program you'd be so disgusted by it's socialist implications that you'd write Return To Sender on it? Uh-huh...that's what I thought. You'd cash it just like anyone else, yet you come here and spout about Socialism...
      I'm confused, when and where did I spout about socialism?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by espacecadet View Post

      Kurt, Tim and Kim, I suppose that if you received a check from the ACES program you'd be so disgusted by it's socialist implications that you'd write Return To Sender on it? Uh-huh...that's what I thought. You'd cash it just like anyone else, yet you come here and spout about Socialism...
      As Tim said above, we support the concept of ACES. It's the hypocrisy we are against. Geez, you couldn't look any more foolish with your tough guy post, that's so wrong.

      And here's a couple of relevant facts for you, whoever you are:

      Teddy Roosevelt, that famous socialist, introduced the progressive tax rate.

      And, Ronald Reagan brought us the Earned Income Credit.

      Think McCain or Palin will call them socialists?
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  • Profile picture of the author mbealmear
    McCain is going to redistribute the wealth too....he just wants to give it to the people who dont need help...the top 1% of our economy.
    What happened to people watching our for eachother and helping eachother.
    Our country has become so proud and accustomed to the idea to give more and more to those who need it least and hope that prosperity trickles down to the rest of the economy.
    When its the "poor" people that keep our economy going.
    And why do people have such problem giving money back to the nurses, ambulance drivers, cops, teachers and such...what price tag would you put on your health and education?
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Grossman
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I didn't watch it, but I assume this is the "infomercial" he aired tonight?
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  • Profile picture of the author captivereef
    I have to take notice that everyone in that Obama video who is "susposedly" short on cash was driving newer cars.They probably have cell phones, cable TV an high speed internet as well. There houses looked pretty well kept as well!
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by captivereef View Post

      I have to take notice that everyone in that Obama video who is "susposedly" short on cash was driving newer cars.They probably have cell phones, cable TV an high speed internet as well. There houses looked pretty well kept as well!

      and your point?
      If your short of cash then you won'tkeep your house up?
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  • Profile picture of the author captivereef
    No i would keep my house up but if i knew the money was tight i sure as heck would not buy or lease a new car! Most people are hurting because of bad decisions they made! Maxed out credit cards, buying to expensive of a car, excessive cell phone plans it all adds up.
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    • Profile picture of the author TE2
      Originally Posted by captivereef View Post

      No i would keep my house up but if i knew the money was tight i sure as heck would not buy or lease a new car! Most people are hurting because of bad decisions they made! Maxed out credit cards, buying to expensive of a car, excessive cell phone plans it all adds up.
      Additionally, the guy complaining about feeding his family was paying a $24 bill at a restaurant.

      If a person is having difficulty with the food expenses, should they be eating out?
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I am hurting because I was unexpectedly disabled.
    My medical costs was almost $150,000. for the last 3 moinths.
    Yes I have high speed cable. I need it to do what little work I still can.
    I have no credit cards.
    I do not always make the best decisions, but the reasons I and my wife are hurting now is not due to any of the reasons you state.
    And I am not alone.
    Appearances aren't always what they seem.
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  • Profile picture of the author espacecadet
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    • Profile picture of the author TE2
      Originally Posted by espacecadet View Post

      Obama's prime-time ad skips over budget realities

      -
      -
      -

      Obama recently acknowledged -- although not in his commercial -- that: "The next president will have to scale back his agenda and some of his proposals."

      But that won't stop Obama from stretching the truth or making a bunch of wild promises he knows he won't be able to fulfill. Anything to get someone to vote for him...
      David Gregory interviewed a prominent Democrat yesterday that said Obama would not be able to deliver as promised. Gregory then said (paraphrased) "Isn't that what McCain has been saying?" The replying was mostly incoherent stutter because he knew it to be true and could not spin his way out.
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