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Logic and the Rules of Debate

by Kurt
17 replies
  • OFF TOPIC
    • |
I'm sure some have, but of all the forums I've ever visited I've never seen anyone post the "rules" of logic and debate.

We also have a Warrior forum dedicated to improving the thought process but haven't seen logic posted there, although I admit I don't go there often and easily could have missed something.

It's really interesting to read some of these logical fallacies and then read forum posts here and see just how many arguments posted really have little logical merit.

How many of these can you spot and how many logical fallacies do you use?

Fallacies


Index
  1. Ad Hominem
  2. Ad Hominem Tu Quoque
  3. Appeal to Authority
  4. Appeal to Belief
  5. Appeal to Common Practice
  6. Appeal to Consequences of a Belief
  7. Appeal to Emotion
  8. Appeal to Fear
  9. Appeal to Flattery
  10. Appeal to Novelty
  11. Appeal to Pity
  12. Appeal to Popularity
  13. Appeal to Ridicule
  14. Appeal to Spite
  15. Appeal to Tradition
  16. Bandwagon
  17. Begging the Question
  18. Biased Sample
  19. Burden of Proof
  20. Circumstantial Ad Hominem
  21. Composition
  22. Confusing Cause and Effect
  23. Division
  24. False Dilemma
  25. Gambler's Fallacy
  26. Genetic Fallacy
  27. Guilt By Association
  28. Hasty Generalization
  29. Ignoring A Common Cause
  30. Middle Ground
  31. Misleading Vividness
  32. Personal Attack
  33. Poisoning the Well
  34. Post Hoc
  35. Questionable Cause
  36. Red Herring
  37. Relativist Fallacy
  38. Slippery Slope
  39. Special Pleading
  40. Spotlight
  41. Straw Man
  42. Two Wrongs Make A Right
  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    43. You're AFU, dude.
    44. Kurt... are you high, again?

    Just tryin' to help, Kurt.

    Seriously, those are cool. A lot of reading, but I'll check 'em out.

    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Well Kurt I haven't a clue as to what the first 2 are:confused:
      No I didn't follow the links to find out either
      Debating Cannabis legalization I run into the other examples all the time.
      The ones I run into the most cover fear and emotion in one question.
      You don't want children smoking pot do you?
      Every time I hear that I feel like slapping the person who asks it.
      Instead I remain calm and just call them an idiot
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  • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
    The concept of logic in a general forum is a fallacy in itself. No facetiousness intended.

    Most forums, this one included, are places where people go to be less alone, to "be" with others of similar interests. This is especially true of the Off Topic forum. Critical thought is rare and ignored, even scorned. Posters tend to seek agreement or discussion that doesn't directly assault their beliefs.

    This would not be a family friendly forum if critical thought were applied to every post. Actually, no one would even come here any more. Logical analysis is often thought of as assault.

    If forum members normally applied critical thought the WSO forum would vanish within days. This is a marketing forum, a place where the whole idea is to defeat critical thought. Too bad so many have only defeated it in themselves...
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by Lawrh View Post

      Posters tend to seek agreement or discussion that doesn't directly assault their beliefs.
      A planetary scourge, Lawrence.

      Your post will be scorned and ignored for reasons you so aptly described.

      For shame, Lawrence... for shame.


      Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by Lawrh View Post

      The concept of logic in a general forum is a fallacy in itself. No facetiousness intended.

      Most forums, this one included, are places where people go to be less alone, to "be" with others of similar interests. This is especially true of the Off Topic forum. Critical thought is rare and ignored, even scorned. Posters tend to seek agreement or discussion that doesn't directly assault their beliefs.

      This would not be a family friendly forum if critical thought were applied to every post. Actually, no one would even come here any more. Logical analysis is often thought of as assault.

      If forum members normally applied critical thought the WSO forum would vanish within days. This is a marketing forum, a place where the whole idea is to defeat critical thought. Too bad so many have only defeated it in themselves...
      Actually, I can spot a few fallacies in this very post. You are claiming fact for what is really your own opinion. For example making a claim that logic doesn't belong in a forum because "Critical thought is rare and ignored, even scorned. Posters tend to seek agreement or discussion that doesn't directly assault their beliefs."

      This comment is a logical fallacy in itself. You've offered no proof and I've observed that the posts with the most conflicts that "assault their beliefs" are the most popular, contrary to your statement of fact.

      Which brings us to another logical fallacy, called "burdon of proof". It isn't my job to prove your contention of "critical thought is ignored". You brought it up, you need to prove that people avoid conflict and logic.

      Not to mention I never said that forums should be run buy the rule of logic, which somehow you based your post on. My intention of this post was for YOU to educate YOURSELF and be able to deduce logical arguments when you see them, not only in forums but in real life.

      I'm sorry you can't find any value in this post and instead of focusing on benefit, you instead need to put down. Not a very logical thing to do, but one based more on emotional need.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Ps...Not to mention that if this forum strictly followed the Rules of Logical Debate concerning flame thread, this would be a more friendly forum, without insults, ad homimins, personal attacks, poisoning the well, name calling, etc.

    Sorry Lawrence, but I don't buy your logic. There's another reason besides intellect for using logic and that's civility.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lawrh
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Sorry Lawrence, but I don't buy your logic. There's another reason besides intellect for using logic and that's civility.
      I sorry you misunderstand my intention. I have to leave for a few hours. I will try to address your concerns when I return.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Ps...Not to mention that if this forum strictly followed the Rules of Logical Debate concerning flame thread, this would be a more friendly forum, without insults, ad homimins, personal attacks, poisoning the well, name calling, etc.

      Sorry Lawrence, but I don't buy your logic. There's another reason besides intellect for using logic and that's civility.
      I don't know about THAT! Sometimes people accuse one of an ad hominem attack when it is nothing of the sort. I only WISH I disagreed with EVERYTHING someone I didn't like said.

      But if people disagree with something you say, or believe you are attacking them, or someone they like/admire, you can have personal attacks, poisoning the well, name calling, etc...

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Man, Kurt...

    45. Ass whoopin.


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Kurt -- I tried to teach this stuff, and quit teaching, LOL .......and to tell you the truth - most people have no clue of what logic encompasses. After doing a few quantums and some formulas you start to get the clue.

    To tell the truth, though, most can't figure out the difference between subjective/objective, and general/specific. If you watch the forum, you will see that 9 times out of 10 the debaters can't even get past the most simplistic invalid logical construction - motus ponus, which means that the conclusion does not follow necessarily (by necessity, even that WORD gets misunderstood) from the premises.

    If you watch, too - you will see even people very well educated in logic will argue using invalid constructions or using fallacies. Why? Because they can.
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    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      The most common error in heated arguments on this forum (in my opinion, of course) -

      debate = rhetoric (if I keep repeating myself, someone will believe me)

      So, if I answer a stupid post and tell them "that's dumb" - do I have to prove it or is the post proof on its own?

      Let's face it - if logical debate were a requirement, this forum would be a quiet place.

      Brain is turning into a pretzel on this.....
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I've always loved how people discount actual facts and tons of evidence in order to stick to their guns and how they feel about someone or some issue.

    It's a hoot!

    Now I have a better idea why.


    Here's an article about a study done on the subject.

    The original article - I think.

    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id...+Ideas+section


    Exposed to Facts, the Misinformed Believe Lies More Strongly | FDL News Desk
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    It's also true, TL, that if someone doesn't want to see the truth it doesn't matter what evidences and proofs you give them, they will call you names instead of listening, absorbing, etc. And that is called denial at a lighter stage and "slip programming" in the most ingrained stages.

    Look what happens when you say "Alex Jones said it" -- you will hear people scream bloody murder even if they don't know what Alex's proofs were. He's been right and he has been wrong, but some of his subjects go so deep into what we've been taught about "conspiracy theories" that he could say "It's a great day" and people would automatically scream when they hear his name.
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    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author Bjarne Eldhuset
      To quote Wikipedia:
      Logic is often divided into two parts, inductive reasoning and deductive reasoning. The first is drawing general conclusions from specific examples, the second drawing logical conclusions from definitions and axioms.
      Many people don't don't draw their conclusions from any of the above.

      That's just what I think, though
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    I'm sure some have, but of all the forums I've ever visited I've never seen anyone post the "rules" of logic and debate.
    Robert's Rules of Order Online - Parliamentary Procedure and Parliamentarians

    </thread>
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Those aren't rules of logic, though, CD - they are rules of decorum and process (at least if they are mimicking the structure of the real Roberts Rules).

      Ya know -- seeing this whole thing, I wonder -- when did we decide that we would want to use formal procedures just to post in a forum. When did we become so whigged out over people being "nice" that we can't enjoy some off the cuff banter and the hell with it all if someone calls us a poopface, dickhead, or bitch that we're scared to say what we want instead of what has been fully analysed synthesized, and homogenized, that it loses all flavor of people getting together and just "jacking their jaws". It might not be as "friendly" or "civil" -- but we learn who each other are. I've been told to go to hell in here and it really didn't hurt. Tough noogies, so the guy hates my politics - I wasn't too thrilled with his either. Hey - we went to college in the same state, and both know what the politics and debates are like at that place. Neither one of us were freaked over a stupid "go to hell". It was everyone else that got jiggy with it. WE were both nasty to each other, but for some reason we never held it against each other.

      People aren't any nastier in here than they are with a room full of the closest buds. There's a time for decorum, there's a time for just gettin' real with it. If we can't be friends when we speak openly about how we think with each other (even if we play a little rough sometime) we can't really be friends anyhow. Friends don't worry about little crap like that. We're warriors - not the 4:00 tea time book club. So what if we're crass - we take care of each other when push comes to shove in any way we can. We're family, and that's why we're in here at least once a day like drooling idiots.

      So I'm all for keepin' it real...........maybe a few threads which ask for rules of process and decorum - a logical stance, etc. But I personally like just shooting the breeze without having to back up every damned word we say with hardcore evidence of everything we read or hear somewhere to be able to post when we wanna say something.

      You wouldn't believe the number of absolute flat lining a**holes in here that I actually just love!

      People are so worried about offending and being offended any more that it's just bizarre. I don't want conversation to start looking like a session of congress.
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      Sal
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      Beyond the Path

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  • Profile picture of the author Rick B
    I remember a few things from a logic and philosophy course I took in college. It was interesting that depending on how you say something, it can relate very different meanings.

    For example, the word "some" means the some as "not all". So if you are arguing with your wife and you don't want her to work outside the home but she wants to:

    You say, "Some women were made to stay home, have babies, and clean house".
    She says, "Not all women were made to stay home, have babies, and clean house".

    And you're both actually saying exactly the same thing.

    How about:

    "I'm smarter than most people"
    or
    "I'm not as smart as some people"

    You see this all the time in advertising:

    "You could save up to $500 on your auto insurance"
    or
    "You might not save a damn dime on your auto insurance"

    "Dentists recommend our mouthwash"
    or
    "Other dentists don't recommend our mouthwash"

    "Dentists recommend our mouthwash over that other brand"
    or
    "But there is a third brand that many more dentists recommend"

    "Lots of my girlfriends control the family checkbook"
    or
    "Lots of them don't"

    "Honey, lots of my buddies go to strip clubs"
    or
    "Lots don't"

    "You may be eligible for a prize"
    or
    "You're probably not"
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