Kudos to Cameron of the UK

14 years ago

Hi Kay,

One of the first acts of the newly-elected coalition cabinet was to chop their own pay packets by 5%....

Coalition government: ministers begin work with a 5pc pay cut - Telegraph

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Henderson

Hi Kay,

One of the first acts of the newly-elected coalition cabinet was to chop their own pay packets by 5%....

Coalition government: ministers begin work with a 5pc pay cut - Telegraph

Cutting the salaries of U.S. national legislators would prove problematic since they have to maintain a home - wherever they came from and pay for a home/lodging in the DC metro area also.

They are never going to do it.

If they do a much better job, like get us out of this mess we're in asap, I'm in favor of raising their pay.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Cutting the salaries of U.S. national legislators would prove problematic since they have to maintain a home - wherever they came from and pay for a home/lodging in the DC metro area also.

They are never going to do it.

If they do a much better job, like get us out of this mess we're in asap, I'm in favor of raising their pay.

But do their homes have to be more expensive then ours?
Do their cars have to be BMW's with drivers, or chauffeur driven caddies or Lincoln's?
Their salaries are out of control just like the benefits they receive.
Same on the state level here in NY.
Name one person not in govt. who makes over $80,000 for a part time job like NY legislators do.
If they do a better job of getting us out if the mess they put us in, they still wouldn't deserve what they get now.
Getting us out of this mess would just mean they are finally doing their job.
Most all people in the private sector don't get a raise for finally doing their job because they normally get fired for screwing their job up first.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

But do their homes have to be more expensive then ours?

Do their cars have to be BMW's with drivers, or chauffeur driven caddies or Lincoln's?
Their salaries are out of control just like the benefits they receive.

Same on the state level here in NY.

Name one person not in govt. who makes over $80,000 for a part time job like NY legislators do.

If they do a better job of getting us out if the mess they put us in, they still wouldn't deserve what they get now.

Getting us out of this mess would just mean they are finally doing their job.

Most all people in the private sector don't get a raise for finally doing their job because they normally get fired for screwing their job up first.

Tom,

I'll try to keep this as short as possible and ...

...I am not trying to lecture you.

I'm just replying to your post.

The NY state legislators situation is like many across the nation and I don't agree with the part time salaries.

Most states have run their budgets into the ground.

On to national issues...

We've been around about this before...

IMHO...

Despite the fact that you want to lump them all together...

The folks that hold the majority in congress and the presidency now, are not the same people who seriously mucked up things to bring us to where we are today.

If you care to remember,

IMHO, the folks who mucked things up were handed a very decent economy, a budget surplus and were in absolute total control of the federal government from 2000 until the midterms of 2006.

They had the WH and both houses of congress all those years.

Believe it or not...

- They then proceeded to hand the present admin a economic mess unlike any other since the 1930's.

If you think the above statement is hype then you do not have a decent grasp on American history.

As far as I'm concerned this present situation is a re-run of the 1930's in many ways.

Tom,

If you want to be like tons of other people and continue to pretend that this historic economic mess we're living through...

... was a joint venture and blame both parties equally, there's nothing I can do about that.

Absolutely nothing.

You, I and most Americans are pissed, but I'm 100% sure I'm pissed at the right people.

Let me make this clear...

I'm not saying the dems are perfect angels but compared to the other side IMHO, they're 10X better for this nation at this time in our history.

About that pay raise...

Lots of people want these national folks ( congressmen, senators and the president ) to work for peanuts.

If they help create the economic environment somewhat like this nation had in the 1950's until around the 1980's, as far as I'm concerned , they deserve to be paid quite well.

IMHO,

If we pay them well it reduces the chances of them only thinking about stuffing their own pockets.

We take care of them and they take care of us.

I think the speaker of the house and the leader of the senate should have a driver etc.

I'm not sure of the 3 or 4 people in minor leadership positions directly under them have those benefits or should have them.

There are enormous pressures upon our national legislators ( including death threats )...

...and lumping them all together with the people that mucked up things in the first place IMHO, is a ...

... monster mistake by lots of people in this country and is only helping certain people in government to continue to gum up the works...

.. as the nation continues its' slow and painful recovery process.

Being partisan...

I can understand where partisans are coming from because they are committed to voting for what they believe is their party no matter what has transpired.

But the people in this country who claim...

... to be independents...

... are doing themselves and this country a major disservice by ignoring the clear facts.

They are not doing their homework.

BTW...

A new class of voter has been identified.

They're called the "anyways" voters.

Why??

Because despite mountains of evidence that they shouldn't vote for party "b" in national elections - they voted and will vote for them anyways.

Finally...

I hope that you haven't come to the terribly flawed conclusion...

That there is no appreciable difference in the attitudes, philosophies and ultimately the policy directions of the two parties...

... to get us out of this mess.

Your anger is wholly justified but seriously misguided IMHO.

All The Best!!

TL

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John Henderson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Cutting the salaries of U.S. national legislators would prove problematic since they have to maintain a home - wherever they came from and pay for a home/lodging in the DC metro area also.

They are never going to do it.

If they do a much better job, like get us out of this mess we're in asap, I'm in favor of raising their pay.

When compared with the mind-blowing size of this country's debts TL, a cheap airline ticket and a 5% pay-cut is really only a drop in the ocean.

The real purpose behind these symbolic gestures is to send a message out to the public that says "We're the kind of government who aren't going to take the pi** out of this country's tax-payers".

When compared with the previous government, I "could say more"...

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Henderson

When compared with the mind-blowing size of this country's debts TL, a cheap airline ticket and a 5% pay-cut is really only a drop in the ocean.

The real purpose behind these symbolic gestures is to send a message out to the public that says "We're the kind of government who aren't going to take the pi** out of this country's tax-payers".

When compared with the previous government, I "could say more"...

I hear you John.

I'm not sure how things work in your neck of the woods.

What was the party makeup of the previous government???

Was it a coalition government or was it a solo effort by one party?

When someone forms a government does that gov have the power to enact any set of policies and legislation it wants without hindrance from the opposition??

One thing I do like about your system is the public financing of nation campaigns and the short campaigning season.

If I'm wrong about the public financing etc. please correct me.

Thanks,

TL

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John Henderson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

What was the party makeup of the previous government???

Was it a coalition government or was it a solo effort by one party?

When someone forms a government does that gov have the power to enact any set of policies and legislation it wants without hindrance from the opposition??

One thing I do like about your system is the public financing of nation campaigns and the short campaigning season.

If I'm wrong about the public financing etc. please correct me.

Our previous government was formed by only one party. At the 2005 election, the Labour party secured more than 51% of the available seats in our lower chamber (the House of Commons) and that means that they have enough Members of Parliament to vote thru their promised legislation. Problems only occur when the governing party experiences a "rebellion" and some of its own MPs vote with the opposition to try to defeat government legislation. (FYI, the UK's Labour party is ideologically similar to your country's Democratic party -- in favour of wealth re-distribution, prefers to raise taxes to spend on the public sector, very close relationship with trade unions, etc.)

In the 2010 election, the Conservative party didn't quite win 51% of the available seats, so they formed a coalition with the Liberal Democrats.

Political campaign funding is something of a hot potato at the moment; in the past 15 years, legislation has been introduced to prevent wealthy benefactors from showering political parties with cash in exchange for back-room deals. However, this has reduced the amount of money that the UK's political parties receive and politicians have been hinting that they're considering the public funding of political parties. This is a deeply unpopular idea.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Henderson

Our previous government was formed by only one party.

At the 2005 election, the Labour party secured more than 51% of the available seats in our lower chamber (the House of Commons) and that means that they have enough Members of Parliament to vote thru their promised legislation.

Problems only occur when the governing party experiences a "rebellion" and some of its own MPs vote with the opposition to try to defeat government legislation.

(FYI, the UK's Labour party is ideologically similar to your country's Democratic party -- in favour of wealth re-distribution, prefers to raise taxes to spend on the public sector, very close relationship with trade unions, etc.)

In the 2010 election, the Conservative party didn't quite win 51% of the available seats, so they formed a coalition with the Liberal Democrats.

Political campaign funding is something of a hot potato at the moment; in the past 15 years, legislation has been introduced to prevent wealthy benefactors from showering political parties with cash in exchange for back-room deals.

However, this has reduced the amount of money that the UK's political parties receive and politicians have been hinting that they're considering the public funding of political parties.

This is a deeply unpopular idea.

Thanks for the info.

So in your country...

... the left mucked things up and in my country the right mucked things up.

Amazing.

I'm going to take a small issue with your characterization of the dem party.

You said the dems in America are...

in favour of wealth re-distribution,

- There's no proof of that but it's been said quite often.

It's something that's said to scare people away.

and...

"prefers to raise taxes to spend on the public sector"

This country hasn't really spent any money on massive public projects in decades.

I'll add that "tax and spend" is a much better policy than "no tax and spend".

and...

"very close relationship with trade unions, etc."

Very true.

Thanks again !!

TL

Ps.

You said...

"However, this has reduced the amount of money that the UK's political parties receive and politicians have been hinting that they're considering the public funding of political parties.

This is a deeply unpopular idea."

My question...

When you folks say public, don't you really mean private?

Like your schools.

I heard when you folks say that someone goes to a public school, for us in the U.S. it would mean a private school and vice-versa.

Here's another question...

How do you get rid of a government??

Someone calls for an elections??

How does that work??

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John Henderson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

My question...

When you folks say public, don't you really mean private?

Like your schools.

I heard when you folks say that someone goes to a public school, for us in the U.S. it would mean a private school and vice-versa.

Ah, okay. "Public" and "Private" mean the same thing here that they do in the US. The confusion over public/private schools catches out a lot of Brits but there's a story behind it...

For several centuries, the masters of the great public schools had been enriching their institutions by the same device. All of these schools were founded for the free education of the poor - that is why they were originally called public schools. When Henry VI founded Eton in 1442, for example, he instructed that "no one having a yearly income of more than five marks shall be eligible". In 1382, the founder of Winchester, William of Wykeham, declared that the school was to be made up of 70 "poor and needy" pupils, although as a concession to those whose patronage he sought, he agreed also to take 10 "sons of noble and influential persons". Rugby, Harrow and Westminster were founded as free schools for the poor. And yet, all of them eventually were hijacked by the wealthy, who paid fees to attend. The headmasters were happy to take their money and were quite clever in helping the hijack.

More here: State of despair as public schools get the cream | Education | The Guardian

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Here's another question...

How do you get rid of a government??

Someone calls for an elections??

How does that work??

It used to be that the Prime Minister decided when a general election was called, but David Cameron is changing the system so that we have fixed term parliaments, set at 5 years.

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Kay King

14 years ago

regarding the cost of the pens I have heard the party in power pays for them. Also, they do this for only major bills, not for every bill.

According to several sources - political blogs, washington post, etc - the taxpayer pays for those pens.

The most recent ones are Cross pens customized with the pres name and the seal - costing 148-173 each. For a list of what happens to them after the signing, see the example below. (chose that link only because the list of names was easiest to find) I could find NO reference anywhere about any party paying for pens. Obama signs healthcare bill with 22 pens. Who started that idea? - CSMonitor.com

Major bills, minor bills - pretty much all bills are signed this way now. To me, it's a silly practice to continue and there are thousands of similar practices throughout the govt that could be cut (not just this year but that have been 'traditional') that no taxpayer would ever miss.

kay

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Kay King

14 years ago

TL -

Sooner or later we all have to open our eyes and realize no ONE party mucked it up - they are both guilty of driving us to the edge. And we have tolerated it.

I posted here years ago in a discussion that I was worried about the vast spending and expansion of govt following 9/11 - I said if we allowed both sides to freely use 9/11 to excuse massive spending we could destroy ourselves from the inside.

I heard some pundits laughing at Cameron's choice of transportation as "only a gesture" - but three trips that way would be a million dollar savings. WE could use some gestures like that.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

TL -

Sooner or later we all have to open our eyes and realize no ONE party mucked it up - they are both guilty of driving us to the edge. And we have tolerated it.

I posted here years ago in a discussion that I was worried about the vast spending and expansion of govt following 9/11 - I said if we allowed both sides to freely use 9/11 to excuse massive spending we could destroy ourselves from the inside.

I heard some pundits laughing at Cameron's choice of transportation as "only a gesture" - but three trips that way would be a million dollar savings. WE could use some gestures like that.

Kay-

What's next for me to wake up to??

That there is no appreciable difference in the attitudes, philosophies and ultimately the policy directions of the two parties to get us out of this mess?

Obviously nothing that you've heard, read or seen or will see etc., will ever convince you that one party is chiefly responsible for this historic mess we find our nation in.

- They were at the wheel for 8 years and then it happened - on their watch:

- This is the 2nd time in the last 80 years a historic financial crisis has happened on their watch:

I understand the phenomenon.

So, I'll just say this...

Many people who've been voting for those that mucked things up don't want to admit that they ( the party ) are chiefly responsible for mucking things up because...

... then they will have to face up to the ugly fact that they themselves aided and abetted the muckers by putting the muckers in power and are partly responsible for their actions.

I understand the phenomenon.

And I have to repeat...

What's next for me to wake up to??

That there is no appreciable difference in the attitudes, philosophies and ultimately the policy directions of the two parties to get us out of this mess??

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Actually TL Kay has a point.
Your party has been running my state forever, and we are in a as bad if not worse financial place then the fed. So far the fed has just gone further in debt with this regime. So yeah, it's both parties fault.
Here's a little reading for you TL.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123940286075109617.html

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Kay King 14 years ago

Call me silly - but I don't get the party loyalty thing. What's the point?

Your side has had control of Congress since jan 07 - like I said - both sides are to blame. This business of arguing only from the viewpoint of "my side" is (honestly) something I have never understood.

TL - You and Tim seem determined to put me in a box labeled "other side of the aisle" - and it's not true. I think it's damaging to society to look at every item through a prism of loyalty to a "side".

Some things from both sides represent my views and both sides have items I disagree with. I never supported the previous admin - but I don't fully support this one either. I see mistakes on both sides over the years - but apparently you don't. Your choice.

Don't try to paint me red or blue - it doesn't fit. I guess I'm purple.

kay
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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Actually TL Kay has a point.
Your party has been running my state forever, and we are in a as bad if not worse financial place then the fed. So far the fed has just gone further in debt with this regime. So yeah, it's both parties fault.
Here's a little reading for you TL.
New York Taxes Are the Highest in the Country - WSJ.com

I can't control the locals in your state.

Most states and it's split down the middle have managed the states badly.

Regarding the national debt.

Here's plenty of proof that people who claim that Obama is running up the national debt are either politically motivated or haven't done their homework.

I'm not claiming the debt is not going to go up under Obama, ...

...I'm claiming 75% of the debt - over the next 10 year was going to happen no matter who was the pres - because of the previous admins policy's.

Here's a little reading for you Tom and a chart to boot.

Off the Charts Blog | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities | Blog Archive | Whose Deficit Is It, Anyway?

This nation was put into an incredible bind by the previous admin.

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I can't control the locals in your state.

Most states and it's split down the middle have managed the states badly.

Regarding the national debt.

Here's plenty of proof that people who claim that Obama is running up the national debt are either politically motivated or haven't done their homework.

I'm not claiming the debt is not going to go up under Obama, ...

...I'm claiming 75% of the debt - over the next 10 year was going to happen no matter who was the pres - because of the previous admins policy's.

Here's a little reading for you Tom and a chart to boot.

Off the Charts Blog | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities | Blog Archive | Whose Deficit Is It, Anyway?

This nation was put into an incredible bind by the previous admin.

TL

TL I never suggested you could control anything.
Also I never claimed it was this administration who put us in this debt, remember I have no party affiliation at all, none, nadda.
I implied this admin has just put us further in debt.
Remember we where in pretty good shape after Clinton left office.
We where in the crapper when Obama took office.
You don't need to be a financial wizard to figure out who got us there.
One thing I've noticed is this.
When B.C. took office we where in serious debt, in 8 years he brought us out of it without throwing money at everything.
I'm just not seeing anything like that with this admin.

As for NY, sh*t flows down hill and because of our ties with wall street we are tied in with the feds a little more then most other states.
I don't blame our governor (dem.) for our mess but our senate which currently has a dem majority. Even then I don't just blame them, but both sides of the aisle. Mainly because the minority party here doesn't act any differently from the one at the fed. level.

By the way here is one reason I like my governor.
After our state budget was finally passed (almost 3 full months late) our 'blind' governor sat down and vetoed over 1,000 'pork-barrel' spending projects in that budget. He wasn't above letting his feelings known about the reps. trying to spend more on waste when we are financially broke.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

TL I never suggested you could control anything.
Also I never claimed it was this administration who put us in this debt, remember I have no party affiliation at all, none, nadda.

I implied this admin has just put us further in debt.
Remember we where in pretty good shape after Clinton left office.

We where in the crapper when Obama took office.

You don't need to be a financial wizard to figure out who got us there.

One thing I've noticed is this.

When B.C. took office we where in serious debt, in 8 years he brought us out of it without throwing money at everything.

I'm just not seeing anything like that with this admin.

As for NY, sh*t flows down hill and because of our ties with wall street we are tied in with the feds a little more then most other states.

I don't blame our governor (dem.) for our mess but our senate which currently has a dem majority.

Even then I don't just blame them, but both sides of the aisle.

Mainly because the minority party here doesn't act any differently from the one at the fed. level.

By the way here is one reason I like my governor.
After our state budget was finally passed (almost 3 full months late) our 'blind' governor sat down and vetoed over 1,000 'pork-barrel' spending projects in that budget. He wasn't above letting his feelings known about the reps. trying to spend more on waste when we are financially broke.

You said...

Remember we where in pretty good shape after Clinton left office.

We where in the crapper when Obama took office.

You don't need to be a financial wizard to figure out who got us there.

I say...

It seems like maybe you've realized who gets the loins' share of blame for getting us into this historic mess. ( I can't be sure )

The admin between Clinton and Obama.

You said...

One thing I've noticed is this.

When B.C. took office we where in serious debt, in 8 years he brought us out of it without throwing money at everything.

I'm just not seeing anything like that with this admin.

I say...

B.C. had a lot of debt to deal with ( 4 1/2 trill ) but it was manageable.

B.C. didn't have to - or else.

We have a large country with a large economy and the debt was a drag but it wasn't the end of the world.

He worked together with the repubs and together they controlled the debt and had us on a path to eliminate it by something like 2020.

But...

This admin walked in on a mess of historic proportions that could have easily become much, much worse - ...

We're talking about 700k jobs being lost in the first month of Obama's admin.

...that's the big difference between B.C.'s situation and this admins'.

This downturn is historic since the times of 29.

You call it throwing money at the problem...

This admin said, we've got to inject some money into the economy with a stimulus plan or else this deep recession will turn into...

Great Depression #2:

We're talking about 700k jobs being lost in the first month of Obama's admin.

The jobs bleeding has stopped and now we're treading water with small gains.

If you think it's bad out here now it would have been much, much worse if we didn't do it.

That plan saved at least 3 million jobs - like teachers, firefighters, first responders etc. and cut taxes on most Americans and is also making long-term investments in our economy.

800 billion is all he could get out of the congress when IMHO a couple trill would have had a deeper, quicker and more meaningful impact.

As sensible and badly needed as the stimulus was...,

... folks on the other side...

...would have irresponsibly let the economy spiral into Great Depression #2 as all voted against it except 3 in the senate.

You call it throwing money at the problem...

Of the 10 or so trillion that will be added to the national debt over the next 10 years, Obama is only directly responsible for about 2.5 trillion and most of that will be...

- keeping people afloat - who've been working all their life and are victims of this downturn:

- Strategic investments in a new energy direction, infrastructure, education, lower taxes for most people etc.

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

You said...

Remember we where in pretty good shape after Clinton left office.

We where in the crapper when Obama took office.

You don't need to be a financial wizard to figure out who got us there.

I say...

It seems like maybe you've realized who gets the loins' share of blame for getting us into this historic mess. ( I can't be sure )

The admin between Clinton and Obama.

You said...

One thing I've noticed is this.

When B.C. took office we where in serious debt, in 8 years he brought us out of it without throwing money at everything.

I'm just not seeing anything like that with this admin.

I say...

B.C. had a lot of debt to deal with ( 4 1/2 trill ) but it was manageable.

B.C. didn't have to - or else.

We have a large country with a large economy and the debt was a drag but it wasn't the end of the world.

He worked together with the repubs and together they controlled the debt and had us on a path to eliminate it by something like 2020.

But...

This admin walked in on a mess of historic proportions that could have easily become much, much worse - ...

We're talking about 700k jobs being lost in the first month of Obama's admin.

...that's the big difference between B.C.'s situation and this admins'.

This downturn is historic since the times of 29.

You call it throwing money at the problem...

This admin said, we've got to inject some money into the economy with a stimulus plan or else this deep recession will turn into...

Great Depression #2:

We're talking about 700k jobs being lost in the first month of Obama's admin.

The jobs bleeding has stopped and now we're treading water with small gains.

If you think it's bad out here now it would have been much, much worse if we didn't do it.

That plan saved at least 3 million jobs - like teachers, firefighters, first responders etc. and cut taxes on most Americans and is also making long-term investments in our economy.

800 billion is all he could get out of the congress when IMHO a couple trill would have had a deeper, quicker and more meaningful impact.

As sensible and badly needed as the stimulus was...,

... folks on the other side...

...would have irresponsibly let the economy spiral into Great Depression #2 as all voted against it except 3 in the senate.

You call it throwing money at the problem...

Of the 10 or so trillion that will be added to the national debt over the next 10 years, Obama is only directly responsible for about 2.5 trillion and most of that will be...

- keeping people afloat - who've been working all their life and are victims of this downturn:

- Strategic investments in a new energy direction, infrastructure, education, lower taxes for most people etc.

TL

That line I bolded kind of proves my point. When the two parties work together for the good of the country and not for their parties agendas the country benefits. When they don't it country suffers.
Both parties are just as guilty of not working together as the other.
When the dems are in charge they spout how they tried to get the repubs to work with them but they refused. When the repubs are in charge it's the same thing. What I have said before and I'll say it again, we don't need party agendas, we need a country agenda. It's not about what the pres. wants, but what we want.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

It's not about what the pres. wants, but what we want.

It's not about what the pres. wants, OR what we want, but about what we can use or need that the constitution allows for. Our wants should be used SOLELY to get that ball rolling.

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Kay King

14 years ago

what if one party does not want to work with the other party on common sense proposals

BALANCE of power. Whenever one side is in full charge we're in trouble - no matter which side it is. Much better is a leader's agenda that must be promoted to both sides - and where both sides take into consideration the will of the people. Bills aren't rushed through or manipulated but are considered and READ and compromise reached. Rulings of the judicial branch are not ignored or bypassed but are respected. Decisions of states that make up the union are treated with respect.

When you have a balance between executive/legislative, no one is beating their chests over the huge power they have. What we have when power is absolute on one side (or the other) - are "officials" who choose their path over the will of the people...because they can.

kay

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

BALANCE of power. Whenever one side is in full charge we're in trouble - no matter which side it is. Much better is a leader's agenda that must be promoted to both sides - and where both sides take into consideration the will of the people. Bills aren't rushed through or manipulated but are considered and READ and compromise reached. Rulings of the judicial branch are not ignored or bypassed but are respected. Decisions of states that make up the union are treated with respect.

When you have a balance between executive/legislative, no one is beating their chests over the huge power they have. What we have when power is absolute on one side (or the other) - are "officials" who choose their path over the will of the people...because they can.

kay

Isn't that also a recipe for gridlock????

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

TL -

Sooner or later we all have to open our eyes and realize no ONE party mucked it up - they are both guilty of driving us to the edge. And we have tolerated it.

I posted here years ago in a discussion that I was worried about the vast spending and expansion of govt following 9/11 - I said if we allowed both sides to freely use 9/11 to excuse massive spending we could destroy ourselves from the inside.

I heard some pundits laughing at Cameron's choice of transportation as "only a gesture" - but three trips that way would be a million dollar savings. WE could use some gestures like that.

JUST the GAS for airforce one, JUST THE GAS, from what I heard to europe would cost about $400,000. ONE WAY! So token gesture? If I went there next month, it would cost me about $925-$975 dollars if I stayed a week. If I went tomorrow, for a few days, it would be $2451.20 to about 5827.20. BTW these are COACH! First class a month from now would be about $2830.20. Token gesture? MAYBE! STILL, it is FAR better than the MILLIONS we pay!

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

JUST the GAS for airforce one, JUST THE GAS, from what I heard to europe would cost about $400,000. ONE WAY! So token gesture? If I went there next month, it would cost me about $925-$975 dollars if I stayed a week. If I went tomorrow, for a few days, it would be $2451.20 to about 5827.20. BTW these are COACH! First class a month from now would be about $2830.20. Token gesture? MAYBE! STILL, it is FAR better than the MILLIONS we pay!

Steve

I know good and well that you're not suggesting that we scrap Airforce 1.

Here's a quick savings for you...

The previous admin had ordered 10bill in new helicopters for the WH.

This admin canceled the order.

10 Bill saved.

TL

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I know good and well that you're not suggesting that we scrap Airforce 1.

Here's a quick savings for you...

The previous admin had ordered 10bill in new helicopters for the WH.

This admin canceled the order.

10 Bill saved.

TL

It IS needlessly OVERUSED! ALSO, it is ABSURDLY HUGE, and STILL not big enough for some!

As for the helicoptors, assuming that is true, doesn't CONGRESS have to approve it!?!? And WHY did they take so long to arrive?

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

TL -

Sooner or later we all have to open our eyes and realize no ONE party mucked it up - they are both guilty of driving us to the edge. And we have tolerated it.

I posted here years ago in a discussion that I was worried about the vast spending and expansion of govt following 9/11 - I said if we allowed both sides to freely use 9/11 to excuse massive spending we could destroy ourselves from the inside.

I heard some pundits laughing at Cameron's choice of transportation as "only a gesture" - but three trips that way would be a million dollar savings.

WE could use some gestures like that.

Kay-

Maybe these will help...

The Agriculture Department,

will move 1,500 employees from seven leased locations into one place in early 2011, saving $62 million over 15 years.

2010 Medicare Fraud Strike Task Force Charges:

In July 2010, the Medicare Fraud Strike Task Force announced its largest fraud discovery ever when charging 94 people nationwide for allegedly submitting a total of $251 million in fraudulent Medicare claims.

The 94 people charged included doctors, medical assistants, and health care firm owners, and 36 of them have been found and arrested.

Charges were filed in Baton Rouge (31 defendants charged), Miami (24 charged) Brooklyn, (21 charged), Detroit (11 charged) and Houston (four charged).

By value, nearly half of the false claims were made in Miami-Dade County, Florida.

The Medicare claims covered HIV treatment, medical equipment, physical therapy and other unnecessary services or items, or those not provided.

There will be an extra ongoing enforcement efforts to stop fraud.

The White House says Homeland Security, ...

...the third largest federal department, has not been buying most of its $100 million a year in office supplies in bulk.

The administration thinks it can save $52 million over five years with bulk-buying bargains at the department.

Student Loans - Saving money to help more students:

The new law will eliminate fees paid to private banks to act as intermediaries in providing loans to college students and use much of the nearly $68 billion in savings over 11 years to expand Pell grants and make it easier for students to repay outstanding loans after graduating.

A few gestures...

TL

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Patrician

14 years ago

Exactly -- Gestures. Drops in the bucket

Yet - Not even LIP SERVICE about how we could save some big bucks just by enforcing our own laws.

FAIR: Illegal Immigration a $113 Billion a Year Drain on U.S. Taxpayers

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Kay-

Maybe these will help...

The Agriculture Department,

will move 1,500 employees from seven leased locations into one place in early 2011, saving $62 million over 15 years.

2010 Medicare Fraud Strike Task Force Charges:

In July 2010, the Medicare Fraud Strike Task Force announced its largest fraud discovery ever when charging 94 people nationwide for allegedly submitting a total of $251 million in fraudulent Medicare claims.

The White House says Homeland Security, ...

...the third largest federal department, has not been buying most of its $100 million a year in office supplies in bulk.

The administration thinks it can save $52 million over five years with bulk-buying bargains at the department.

Student Loans - Saving money to help more students:

The new law will eliminate fees paid to private banks to act as intermediaries in providing loans to college students and use much of the nearly $68 billion in savings over 11 years to expand Pell grants and make it easier for students to repay outstanding loans after graduating.

A few gestures...

TL

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

Exactly -- Gestures. Drops in the bucket

Yet - Not even LIP SERVICE about how we could save some big bucks just by enforcing our own laws.

FAIR: Illegal Immigration a $113 Billion a Year Drain on U.S. Taxpayers

Are you blaming this admin for the immigration problem?

If you are, it doesn't make sense.

A comprehensive immigration bill is going to be quite an undertaking since neither party really wants to deal with it because no one knows how voters will react.

TL

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Are you blaming this admin for the immigration problem?

If you are, it doesn't make sense.

A comprehensive immigration bill is going to be quite an undertaking since neither party really wants to deal with it because no one knows how voters will react.

TL

They created a comprehensive bill, ahem... LAW, like 100 YEARS ago! Simply ENFORCE IT! NOW, one state wants to enforce it and the admin is suing them. I CAN'T say country, since the constitution forbids it, and most want the enforcement! HEY, MY family had to obey the law!

Steve

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Patrician

14 years ago

Don't worry about stupid party politics. You see how that is your first concern? That is part of the problem - no matter which party.

I do realize that this problem has been growing for a long time through both party admins. (DUH)

Don't know how the voters will react????? BS. I have seen several polls etc FOR YEARS where as much as 80% of Americans want this problem solved yesterday and I don't mean by amnesty.

Wouldn't you say $113 billion a year would be a concern to the majority of AMERICANS regardless of party affiliation?

Well at least now that they have let it get so out of hand they have had to send the National Guard to the borders because of 'drug violence' spilling over into the US - so now it will cost even more

...didn't see that coming and coming and coming.. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Are you blaming this admin for the immigration problem?

If you are, it doesn't make sense.

A comprehensive immigration bill is going to be quite an undertaking since neither party really wants to deal with it because no one knows how voters will react.

TL

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Kay-

Maybe these will help...

The Agriculture Department,

will move 1,500 employees from seven leased locations into one place in early 2011, saving $62 million over 15 years.

2011? WHY SO LATE!?!? WHY were they leased? What do the people do? I bet *I* could save MORE! 8-)

2010 Medicare Fraud Strike Task Force Charges:

In July 2010, the Medicare Fraud Strike Task Force announced its largest fraud discovery ever when charging 94 people nationwide for allegedly submitting a total of $251 million in fraudulent Medicare claims.

The 94 people charged included doctors, medical assistants, and health care firm owners, and 36 of them have been found and arrested.

Charges were filed in Baton Rouge (31 defendants charged), Miami (24 charged) Brooklyn, (21 charged), Detroit (11 charged) and Houston (four charged).

By value, nearly half of the false claims were made in Miami-Dade County, Florida.

The Medicare claims covered HIV treatment, medical equipment, physical therapy and other unnecessary services or items, or those not provided.

There will be an extra ongoing enforcement efforts to stop fraud.

TOO LITTLE! TOO LATE! They KNEW/KNOW about this fraud! Some they ENCOURAGE! I have seen this FIRST HAND! And it costs EVERYONE!

The White House says Homeland Security, ...

...the third largest federal department, has not been buying most of its $100 million a year in office supplies in bulk.

The administration thinks it can save $52 million over five years with bulk-buying bargains at the department.

How about REDUCING PAPER!? How about STANDARDIZING FORMS!? How about FORGETTING all the stupid changes? I GUARANTEE they are spending money on AT LEAST 10 times as many supplies as they should have. And they are NOT the only ones! AGAIN, FIRST HAND!

Student Loans - Saving money to help more students:

The new law will eliminate fees paid to private banks to act as intermediaries in providing loans to college students and use much of the nearly $68 billion in savings over 11 years to expand Pell grants and make it easier for students to repay outstanding loans after graduating.

AGAIN, TOO LITTLE TOO LATE!

A few gestures...

YEAH, create a GIGANTIC problem, reduce it to a HUGE problem, and take credit for the "savings". Typical political dreck!

Steve

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Kay King

14 years ago

I think those are good gestures - and we need many, many more of them to make a difference.

The size, scope and overlapping of departments in "homeland security" ( I have always disliked that name) has also been discussed lately and hopefully something will be done about it.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I think those are good gestures - and we need many, many more of them to make a difference.

The size, scope and overlapping of departments in "homeland security" ( I have always disliked that name) has also been discussed lately and hopefully something will be done about it.

Kay-

I just discovered this.

Obama signs bill targeting government waste:

Washington (CNN) -- President Barack Obama turned his attention to the ongoing fight against government waste Thursday, signing a bill requiring federal agencies to spend at least $1 million annually on audits targeting improper payments and fraud.

Among other things, the Improper Payments Elimination and Recovery Act provides new financial incentives for auditors to track down government waste and requires the administration to report to Congress each fiscal year on steps taken to cut down on inappropriate expenditures.

Government needs to be a "responsible steward" of taxpayer dollars, Obama said shortly before signing the bill at the White House.

"There are outstanding public servants ... but too often their best efforts are thwarted by outdated technologies and outmoded" ways of doing business.

The government improperly spent $110 billion last year -- more than the budgets of the Small Business Administration and the Education Department combined, the president said.

Obama said his goal is to reduce the improper federal payments by $50 billion between now and 2012.

"This isn't just about lines on a spreadsheet," he said.

"When government doesn't work like it should, it has a real effect on people's lives."

The Senate passed the bill by unanimous consent on June 23. The House of Representatives approved it July 14.

I copied the story but here it is also...

Obama signs bill targeting government waste - CNN.com

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Kay-

I just discovered this.

Obama signs bill targeting government waste:

Washington (CNN) -- President Barack Obama turned his attention to the ongoing fight against government waste Thursday, signing a bill requiring federal agencies to spend at least $1 million annually on audits targeting improper payments and fraud.

Among other things, the Improper Payments Elimination and Recovery Act provides new financial incentives for auditors to track down government waste and requires the administration to report to Congress each fiscal year on steps taken to cut down on inappropriate expenditures.

Government needs to be a "responsible steward" of taxpayer dollars, Obama said shortly before signing the bill at the White House.

"There are outstanding public servants ... but too often their best efforts are thwarted by outdated technologies and outmoded" ways of doing business.

The government improperly spent $110 billion last year -- more than the budgets of the Small Business Administration and the Education Department combined, the president said.

Obama said his goal is to reduce the improper federal payments by $50 billion between now and 2012.

"This isn't just about lines on a spreadsheet," he said.

"When government doesn't work like it should, it has a real effect on people's lives."

The Senate passed the bill by unanimous consent on June 23. The House of Representatives approved it July 14.

I copied the story but here it is also...

Obama signs bill targeting government waste - CNN.com

Now that's an example of listening to the people and doing what's right by them, I hope it goes the way he wants it to.
Now the key is not to turn it into a party thing and realize it was what Obama wanted to do and the senate and house agreed it's a good thing.
An excellent example of working for the people and not a parties agenda.

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Kay King

14 years ago

On April 28, 2010, the House passed H.R. 3393, the Improper Payments Elimination and Recovery Act of 2010, by a voice vote. This bill amends the Improper Payments Information Act of 2002.

So it's not ground breaking - but it's still a good idea. This is meant to tighten the regulations in the original bill of 2002. The pres does seem dedicated to making some headway on overspending.

I don't like the idea of hiring private contractors to do the audits - which is included. Who audits the payments to contractors? The 25% of all recovered funds that go to the agency involved is a sticky for me. I'd think spending the public's money wisely should be a requirement for keeping your job. That's a pretty good incentive to me.

Corporations monitor spending before it happens - and that's where we need to go. It's easier to monitor spending than to spend money on auditing and trying to recoup money after the fact. But any step is progress if followup and oversight is there.

kay

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I don't like the idea of hiring private contractors to do the audits - which is included. Who audits the payments to contractors? The 25% of all recovered funds that go to the agency involved is a sticky for me. I'd think spending the public's money wisely should be a requirement for keeping your job. That's a pretty good incentive to me.

You're certainly right there!

ONE PROBLEM! Some corporations and possibly ALL government offices, setup departments that have a "head" with a "budget". They trust the "head", but index future budgets to old expenses. This means that, in order to handle pet projects and get raises, the department must spend EVERY penny of the budget!!!! I met people at the airport that told me about their department, the local SHERIFF, that had SO much money left over that EVERYONE got a LAPTOP!!!! THOUSANDS per person, and many never even really used, or needed, a laptop. A friend works at ANOTHER government office and told me he saw the SAME thing.

HECK, I once saw a HUGE group of people that flew between LA and san jose EVERY WEEK! I asked them WHY! They were OBVIOUSLY low class, traveling without kids, and kept talking about "their kids". They were SCHOOL BUS DRIVERS!!!!!! The San Jose area paid a VERY high salary, so they REALLY wanted to work there! Of course, they COULDN'T, so the San Jose area ALSO paid for a round trip flight every week, AND put them up in a hotel, FOR FREE!

WHY!?!?!?!? WHO KNOWS? Maybe the school system in san jose had an extra million dollars lying around. That is about what the flights and hotel stays would cost. San Jose tends to be an expensive area, so the higher salary was probably not unusual. A local starbucks needed a coffee server, and paid $20/hour!

Steve

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

According to several sources - political blogs, washington post, etc - the taxpayer pays for those pens.

Links for Washington Post? ( Political blogs don't count. )

Major bills, minor bills - pretty much all bills are signed this way now.

This is simply not the case. Sorry. There's around 1000 bills signed most years. So, if we accept what you are saying the government spends 6 million dollars a year on pens for bill signing!

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Kay King

14 years ago

I'm not sure what your argument is - you think it's a good idea to pay thousands for multiple pens to give away as souvenirs to supporters - at a time when the red ink just keeps growing? This is a standard practice that has evolved over years.

Why do I think it is dumb NOW? Because these are Cross pens - and cross relocated manufacturing to China in 2006. Just saying - though this has been "tradition" for many people in that office - it may be time to change the tradition.

The pen used .... to sign inauguration documents yesterday was made by Rhode Island's A.T. Cross Company, but most of the pen was made at the company's factory in China, a Cross spokeswoman said today.

When pens were made in USA perhaps this was a good practice - but it is now? Is there something wrong with asking if it makes sense or not?

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

I guess the main thing is if it is coming from the Dem Party then it isn't a tax. If it is coming from taxpayers then it should be stopped. Now. I agree with that. I haven't seen proof of that yet though.

Regarding red ink, although I agree with your bucket analogy, I think big budget items such as the Bush Tax cuts, which are the number one source of our debt now, and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are a bigger priority.

I mean, what Cameron did was a good gesture. I have seen this before. Jerry Brown didn't live in the Governor's Mansion here in California and went to work each day in a Plymouth Satellite instead of a limo. He was ridiculed. I won't ridicule Cameron though. It is a good gesture. lets see what happens next.

Originally Posted by Kay King

I'm not sure what your argument is - you think it's a good idea to pay thousands for multiple pens to give away as souvenirs to supporters - at a time when the red ink just keeps growing? This is a standard practice that has evolved over years.

Why do I think it is dumb NOW? Because these are Cross pens - and cross relocated manufacturing to China in 2006. Just saying - though this has been "tradition" for many people in that office - it may be time to change the tradition.

When pens were made in USA perhaps this was a good practice - but it is now? Is there something wrong with asking if it makes sense or not?

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ThomM

14 years ago

Like Kay I was always under the impression that the tax payers pay for the pens.
So Tim how about you showing proof that the parties pay for them and that not all bills are signed with only one pen.
Even with "trivial" bills the president still hands out pens to the sponsors and supporters of the bill.

I agree with you on the bucket analogy Kay, but regarding the cost of the pens I have heard the party in power pays for them. Also, they do this for only major bills, not for every bill.

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Naw. Ladies first.

Originally Posted by ThomM

So Tim how about you showing proof that the parties pay for them and that not all bills are signed with only one pen.

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Naw. Ladies first.

So you haven't any proof?
I figured you made that up

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

I didn't make anything up. I read somewhere that the Party pays for these pens. Kay said there were several sources including the Washington Post saying otherwise. I asked her for a link and still haven't seen one.

Originally Posted by ThomM

So you haven't any proof?
I figured you made that up

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

I didn't make anything up. I read somewhere that the Party pays for these pens. Kay said there were several sources including the Washington Post saying otherwise. I asked her for a link and still haven't seen one.

Regarding the other question you asked, you didn't even ask it correctly. You wanted proof "that not all bills are signed with only one pen." Well, that's simple. Obama used 22 pens to sign the Health Care Bill. You assumed I "made it up" or in other words lied about the pens so I am going to assume you were too stoned to realize how to ask the question correctly since you are stoned 100% of the time it seems. ;-)

So you can't answer my questions and like many who are backed into a corner you reply that I'm to stoned to ask a question right?
Tim you are seriously a piece of work.
Maybe you're to straight to understand a simple question.
I knew how many pens he used to sign the health care bill.
That wasn't the question.
The question is do you have any proof as to who pays for the pens used to sign bills and do they use more then one pen when signing minor bills.
Is that correct enough for you?

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ThomM

14 years ago

Call me silly - but I don't get the party loyalty thing. What's the point?

Kay some people are just afraid to think for themselves so they blindly follow one or the other party who can do the thinking for them.

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Kay some people are just afraid to think for themselves so they blindly follow one or the other party who can do the thinking for them.

Yeah - we can see that right here in this thread. It doesn't matter what "side" -- if a legislator is voting for bills that are just power and money grabs without any sensical result in raising the welfare of the citizens - then kick their butts out of office. What other job can someone get and be not only totally useless but actually destructive and still get raises and pensions?

If people would quit blindly following someone because they can put a badge on their chest identifying them as one party or another and just fire legislators (impeachments, recalls) when they are morons or corrupted little crooks, we'd be in better shape for sure.

As far as the Pens - 1000 bills a year -- and around 140 - 150 a pen and you think someone is picking up that tab on their own? That's going to be taxes - even the most wealthy in there can't afford that kind of bill on their own. Remember you are talking about people who rarely even buy their own gas or lunches without using the taxpayer funded credit card.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Yeah - we can see that right here in this thread. It doesn't matter what "side" -- if a legislator is voting for bills that are just power and money grabs without any sensical result in raising the welfare of the citizens - then kick their butts out of office. What other job can someone get and be not only totally useless but actually destructive and still get raises and pensions?

If people would quit blindly following someone because they can put a badge on their chest identifying them as one party or another and just fire legislators (impeachments, recalls) when they are morons or corrupted little crooks, we'd be in better shape for sure.

As far as the Pens - 1000 bills a year -- and around 140 - 150 a pen and you think someone is picking up that tab on their own? That's going to be taxes - even the most wealthy in there can't afford that kind of bill on their own. Remember you are talking about people who rarely even buy their own gas or lunches without using the taxpayer funded credit card.

Somebody get this lady a...

pitchfork.

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Somebody get this lady a...
pitchfork.

If it cost $1000, and I thought she would/could use it, on some "officials", I'd PAY for it!
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- TLTheLiberator 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by seasoned
  
  If it cost $1000, and I thought she would/could use it, on some "officials", I'd PAY for it!
  
  You'd probably use it on your fellow citizens when you leave them behind with your totally necessary austerity plan.
  
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  seasoned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator
  
  You'd probably use it on your fellow citizens when you leave them behind with your totally necessary austerity plan.
  
  Austerity is ONLY NEEDED when you have inflation or poverty. Well, we have one and people are betting we will get the other.
  
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  Kay King 14 years ago
  
  ... is there any appreciable difference in the attitudes and policy directions of the two main parties???
  
  Yes, in the platforms there are differences. I have some things I like - and dislike - in both. It's not the mainstream part of either party I dislike - it's the far-to-one-side-or-the-other that offends my middle of the road sensibilities.:p
  
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TimPhelan 14 years ago

I haven't seen real evidence one way or the other about who pays for the pens. However, it just may not be the taxpayers who are paying for the pens. How about the major party in power paying for it as I suggested because of complaints in the past about the cost?

Or perhaps there is another option: The company that made the pens say they "provided" the pens. What does that mean? Hell, it's just as likely the pens were provided for free in exchange for the free publicity and the fact that they sell replicates for about $150 on their website! This is an opportunity companies usually pay for.

Originally Posted by HeySal

As far as the Pens - 1000 bills a year -- and around 140 - 150 a pen and you think someone is picking up that tab on their own?
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Patrician

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Regarding red ink, although I agree with your bucket analogy, I think big budget items such as the Bush Tax cuts, which are the number one source of our debt now, and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are a bigger priority.

Please don't forget the over $100 billion a year we are being scammed for services to illegal aliens.

... made possible through many administrations.

FAIR: Illegal Immigration a $113 Billion a Year Drain on U.S. Taxpayers

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Cutting the salaries of U.S. national legislators would prove problematic since they have to maintain a home - wherever they came from and pay for a home/lodging in the DC metro area also.

They are never going to do it.

If they do a much better job, like get us out of this mess we're in asap, I'm in favor of raising their pay.

They make WAY too much, even for GOOD times. And other people's salaries and all the pensions are based on their salary. A STARTING "representative" makes enough to get a NICE apartment in DC, and pay for a nice large home almost ANYWHERE! The president makes enough to buy a nice home in DC on a 5yr mortgage, own a home elsewhere, etc...

But MAN, David Cameron sounds like a nice guy. Could you imagine the startled look someone could have if he answered what he did for a living!?!? And imagine how the flight attendant, that you KNOW will mistreat him like everyone else, would feel once s/he finds out! 8-)

Steve

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Kay King

14 years ago

a cheap airline ticket and a 5% pay-cut is really only a drop in the ocean.

This is an attitude I've always questioned - and we hear this in the US a lot.

It's "only" $3156 to buy pens for each bill signed by the pres"

It's "only" one million or a billion for that and a drop in the bucket compared to the debt

The unemployment bills passed but was "reduced" to only $34 billion - only up slightly from the $32 billion estimated before agreement.

We're "only" spending $200 each for items citizens can buy for $10 in a local store but "it's only a drop in the bucket".

Here's my response:

Anyone who has had a leaky roof or a dripping pipe in the plumbing knows that even a small leak - fills that damned bucket pretty fast. And a full bucket with a small leak will soon be empty.

kay

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TimPhelan 14 years ago

I agree with you on the bucket analogy Kay, but regarding the cost of the pens I have heard the party in power pays for them. Also, they do this for only major bills, not for every bill.

I like Cameron so far and it seems Obama and him get along better than he did with Brown.

Originally Posted by Kay King

It's "only" $3156 to buy pens for each bill signed by the pres"
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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

This is an attitude I've always questioned - and we hear this in the US a lot.

It's "only" $3156 to buy pens for each bill signed by the pres"

It's "only" one million or a billion for that and a drop in the bucket compared to the debt

The unemployment bills passed but was "reduced" to only $34 billion - only up slightly from the $32 billion estimated before agreement.

We're "only" spending $200 each for items citizens can buy for $10 in a local store but "it's only a drop in the bucket".

Here's my response:

Anyone who has had a leaky roof or a dripping pipe in the plumbing knows that even a small leak - fills that damned bucket pretty fast. And a full bucket with a small leak will soon be empty.

kay

Why don't you stop calling them "PENS". We BOTH know they aren't "PENS". "PENS" are CHEAP! NOPE, they are MONT BLANC pens! They are to pens, what a rolls royce is to cars!

On amazon they apparently start at about $170, and go up to $1000 for the regular editions NOW, if you want LIMITED, they go up to about $3600! Quite a bit more than just a pen.

And yeah, a penny is NOTHING! There was even talk about not having them anymore! Denmark got rid of ALL coins below 25ore! which means that people pay about 2cents more or less than they would otherwise(0-12ore=3-5 cents less 13-25ore=0-2 cents more ), so it is like they got rid of the NICKLE! So even a NICKLE doesn't seem like much. A nickle every day is ONLY about $18.25 times every WORK hour is ONLY $104. HECK, if every US resident, last I heard, paid a nickle, it would ONLY be $16,500,000! If every person paid that for every hour in ONE week, it would be ONLY $660,000,000. If they did it for one year, it would ONLY be $34,320,000,000. BOY, don't we wish we could do that?!?!? But NOPE, that is only a drop in the bucket. That wouldn't even be enough to buy that jet congress wanted! SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!

Steve

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John Henderson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

This is an attitude I've always questioned - and we hear this in the US a lot.

It's "only" $3156 to buy pens for each bill signed by the pres"

It's "only" one million or a billion for that and a drop in the bucket compared to the debt

The unemployment bills passed but was "reduced" to only $34 billion - only up slightly from the $32 billion estimated before agreement.

We're "only" spending $200 each for items citizens can buy for $10 in a local store but "it's only a drop in the bucket".

Here's my response:

Anyone who has had a leaky roof or a dripping pipe in the plumbing knows that even a small leak - fills that damned bucket pretty fast. And a full bucket with a small leak will soon be empty.

Oooh Kay, I think we're both fighting on the same side here!

I wasn't saying "Well it's only a small saving, why bother?", I was trying to say "It may only be a small saving, but Cameron is publicly doing this to show that he's serious about cutting out the waste".

Apologies for not being more clear...

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Henderson

Oooh Kay, I think we're both fighting on the same side here!

I wasn't saying "Well it's only a small saving, why bother?", I was trying to say "It may only be a small saving, but Cameron is publicly doing this to show that he's serious about cutting out the waste".

Apologies for not being more clear...

Reducing their salaries was a GOOD move. Getting a regular coach seat just makes it BETTER!

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Very interesting.

Commercial and not even first class???

Most interesting.

TL

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Freeman A

14 years ago

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TPFLegionaire

14 years ago

Originally Posted by poorman

David Cameron is a great person but his name 'Cameron' always reminds of me of 'Cameroon' a poor country in West Africa. Cameron is rich and Cameroon is poor but just one letter from Cameron to Cameroon.

Well his name remind me of one of the greatest action fought by the French Foreign Legion at the battle of Cameron in Mexico

Before the Alamo, there was Camerone

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

According to the news, Cameron took a commercial flight (not even first class) to D.C. for his visit with the president - saving the UK $300k .

I think that's impressive. Especially when we spend over $3000 for the multiple pens used to sign ONE bill - pens to be distributed to supporters and congressional members.

Really good to see someone in Cameron's position taking the financial problems of his country seriously. (not a jab at anyone - just respect for the UK leader).

kay

Well, gee, Kay - now I'm impressed with the US, too. We didn't have him on the No Fly list so he didn't end up not able to fly in or sitting in an interrogation room forever for trying. Seems like they didn't try to confiscate his laptop either! Good on us, too, eh?

:rolleyes:

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madison_avenue

14 years ago

David Cameron can often be seen walking to work(parliament) with the general public around him. He even use's his bicycle to go to the local shops, he even had his bike stolen when he was in the shop!

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mattlaclear

14 years ago

When are we going to wake up and realize that neither the Democrats or Republicans know how to fix the jam all our countries are in right now? All they're doing is taking turns piloting the ship until it crashes into the rocks because they get to eat first class while they're in the bridge. I'm not sure anyone has the answers all our countries are looking for however. Bottom line is we all have a huge percentage of our population base who is out of work and who will never try to find a different way to provide for themselves. Those who do, like ourselves, will be forced to carry and feed them.

I remember watching the news on election night when Obama won the election. His supporters actually had looks on their faces as if he was the Messiah returning. I'm not judging them mind you because I felt the same way when Bush took office.

Has anyone considered that we may be the answer the world is looking for? That if we can teach just a few people each on how to provide for themselves online how quickly that would change the world we live in?

The Internet was the answer for us. It's also the answer for others.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

When are we going to wake up and realize that neither the Democrats or Republicans know how to fix the jam all our countries are in right now?

All they're doing is taking turns piloting the ship until it crashes into the rocks because they get to eat first class while they're in the bridge.

I'm not sure anyone has the answers all our countries are looking for however.

Bottom line is we all have a huge percentage of our population base who is out of work and who will never try to find a different way to provide for themselves. Those who do, like ourselves, will be forced to carry and feed them.

I remember watching the news on election night when Obama won the election. His supporters actually had looks on their faces as if he was the Messiah returning.

I'm not judging them mind you because I felt the same way when Bush took office.

Has anyone considered that we may be the answer the world is looking for?

That if we can teach just a few people each on how to provide for themselves online how quickly that would change the world we live in?

The Internet was the answer for us. It's also the answer for others.

You said...

When are we going to wake up and realize that neither the Democrats or Republicans know how to fix the jam all our countries are in right now?

I say...

There is a formula for getting our country out of the type of mess we're in.

It ain't rocket science.

Short Term:

- Keep people who worked like all their life afloat until things get better because not...

... keeping them afloat is a lot more damaging to the economy.

( think - negative domino effect )

- Keep teachers, firefighters, first responders etc., working so that essential services won't break down.

* Support small businesses ( the true engine of job growth ) with loans and tax incentives since it seems like the banks are stingy with loans these days.

Long Term:

- Make strategic long term investments in the economy such as...

* Move the country towards a new energy future and eventually keep 300-500 billion in this country and create new industries in America with jobs that can't be outsourced.

* Get health care costs under control. ( big argument here )

* Support our youth that want to get educated and return us to the top tier in higher education among the peoples of the world.

The admin took a national student loan program out of the hands of lenders that were abusing people...

...brought it in house and will save 9 billion per year to boot - to lend at extremely low rates and generous payback schedules for students.

* Start rebuilding America's crumbling infrastructure.

Kurt and others want to get the unemployed to do it.

I think it's a great idea.

This country has a large tax base and all the resources we need to slowly and painfully work our way out of this historic mess.

IMHO...

We could really use a smarter electorate to get rid those on the national level who are simply gumming up the works and don't want to change/improve anything.

The internet:

I agree the internet is another way Americans can...

- Create businesses for themselves:

- Trade with each other:

You said...

Bottom line is we all have a huge percentage of our population base who is out of work and who will never try to find a different way to provide for themselves.

Those who do, like ourselves, will be forced to carry and feed them.

I say...

Those folks are out of work because of this historic downturn and through no fault of their own.

Most of them have been working all their lives.

Since that's the case, we should carry them until things get better.

Guess what???

- It might be a decade.

- It may cost at least 100 Billion a year to carry 6 million unemployed - that's it.

- Note: 100 Billion a year will add less than 1% on to our national debt - per year.

That's dirt cheap!!

Considering the negative fallout from all those people not working when they worked before...

... it's a whole lot cheaper on the national economy to keep them afloat at unemployment wages until things turn around.

And, it's the right thing to do.

Doing otherwise - like saying it's gana cost to much or it's going to add to the national debt is IMHO...

... the equivalent of leaving people behind when we really don't have to.

These people will be some of the people we know - quit possibly family and friends and there are kids involved also.

This is a historic situation which calls for historic measures.

You said...

I remember watching the news on election night when Obama won the election. His supporters actually had looks on their faces as if he was the Messiah returning.

I'm not judging them mind you because I felt the same way when Bush took office.

I say...

After 8 years of one of the worst admins in history - in so many ways, that's the look you're going to get.

I guess Bush disappointed you big, big time or do you also want to pretend him and his attitudes had nothing to do with the mess we're in?

You can't say Clinton mucked things up.

I guess you had no idea Bush would leave the next admin with this historic mess.

All The Best!!

TL

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mattlaclear

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

You said...

When are we going to wake up and realize that neither the Democrats or Republicans know how to fix the jam all our countries are in right now?

I say...

There is a formula for getting our country out of the type of mess we're in.

It ain't rocket science.

Short Term:

- Keep people who worked like all their life afloat until things get better because not...

... keeping them afloat is a lot more damaging to the economy.

( think - negative domino effect )

- Keep teachers, firefighters, first responders etc., working so that essential services won't break down.

* Support small businesses ( the true engine of job growth ) with loans and tax incentives since it seems like the banks are stingy with loans these days.

Long Term:

- Make strategic long term investments in the economy such as...

* Move the country towards a new energy future and eventually keep 300-500 billion in this country and create new industries in America with jobs that can't be outsourced.

* Get health care costs under control. ( big argument here )

* Support our youth that want to get educated and return us to the top tier in higher education among the peoples of the world.

The admin took a national student loan program out of the hands of lenders that were abusing people...

...brought it in house and will save 9 billion per year to boot - to lend at extremely low rates and generous payback schedules for students.

* Start rebuilding America's crumbling infrastructure.

Kurt and others want to get the unemployed to do it.

I think it's a great idea.

This country has a large tax base and all the resources we need to slowly and painfully work our way out of this historic mess.

IMHO...

We could really use a smarter electorate to get rid those on the national level who are simply gumming up the works and don't want to change/improve anything.

The internet:

I agree the internet is another way Americans can...

- Create businesses for themselves:

- Trade with each other:

You said...

Bottom line is we all have a huge percentage of our population base who is out of work and who will never try to find a different way to provide for themselves.

Those who do, like ourselves, will be forced to carry and feed them.

I say...

Those folks are out of work because of this historic downturn and through no fault of their own.

Most of them have been working all their lives.

Since that's the case, we should carry them until things get better.

Guess what???

- It might be a decade.

- It may cost at least 100 Billion a year to carry 6 million unemployed - that's it.

- Note: 100 Billion a year will add less than 1% on to our national debt - per year.

That's dirt cheap!!

Considering the negative fallout from all those people not working when they worked before...

... it's a whole lot cheaper on the national economy to keep them afloat at unemployment wages until things turn around.

And, it's the right thing to do.

Doing otherwise - like saying it's gana cost to much or it's going to add to the national debt is IMHO...

... the equivalent of leaving people behind when we really don't have to.

These people will be some of the people we know - quit possibly family and friends and there are kids involved also.

This is a historic situation which calls for historic measures.

You said...

I remember watching the news on election night when Obama won the election. His supporters actually had looks on their faces as if he was the Messiah returning.

I'm not judging them mind you because I felt the same way when Bush took office.

I say...

After 8 years of one of the worst admins in history - in so many ways, that's the look you're going to get.

I guess Bush disappointed you big, big time or do you also want to pretend him and his attitudes had nothing to do with the mess we're in?

You can't say Clinton mucked things up.

I guess you had no idea Bush would leave the next admin with this historic mess.

All The Best!!

TL

You pm'd to come read this? Man I'm busy working. Now leave me be. Go bash on Bush to someone who gives a hoot about your opinion on the matter.

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TLTheLiberator 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mattlaclear

You pm'd to come read this? Man I'm busy working. Now leave me be. Go bash on Bush to someone who gives a hoot about your opinion on the matter.

Well,

The post has a lot more than so-called Bush bashing.

- You said nobody knows how to fix this mess and I respectfully disagree.

- You said something about us carrying the unemployed and I tried to explain how it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to happen.

- Sorry, but I couldn't help the so-called Bush bashing.

When you have a president that's already known as one of the worst we've ever had, I just couldn't resist.

Sorry if I hit a sore spot.

I thought you wanted to join a lively discussion - that's why I pm'd you.

But rest assured, it shall never happen again.

All The Best!!

TL
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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

You said...

When are we going to wake up and realize that neither the Democrats or Republicans know how to fix the jam all our countries are in right now?

I say...

There is a formula for getting our country out of the type of mess we're in.

It ain't rocket science.

Short Term:

- Keep people who worked like all their life afloat until things get better because not...

... keeping them afloat is a lot more damaging to the economy.

( think - negative domino effect )

That means NO NEW TAXES/FEES/etc...

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

- Keep teachers, firefighters, first responders etc., working so that essential services won't break down.

A couple decades TOO LATE for that!

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

* Support small businesses ( the true engine of job growth ) with loans and tax incentives since it seems like the banks are stingy with loans these days.

AGAIN, NO NEW TAXES/FEES, etc....

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

- Make strategic long term investments in the economy

INVESTMENTS? INVESTMENTS??? Sounds like stocks/bonds. Why not do THAT and forget about the horrible charges to government?

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

* Move the country towards a new energy future and eventually keep 300-500 billion in this country and create new industries in America with jobs that can't be outsourced.

You know who REALLY helped to outsource jobs? THE GOVERNMENT! AGAIN, I know that FIRST HAND! Computers popped up without such crazy financing. CARS, TV, etc... SAME!

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

* Get health care costs under control. ( big argument here )

One way is to NOT raise labor costs, have no new taxes or fees!

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

* Support our youth that want to get educated and return us to the top tier in higher education among the peoples of the world.

You have to fix the educational system FIRST!

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

The admin took a national student loan program out of the hands of lenders that were abusing people...

...brought it in house and will save 9 billion per year to boot - to lend at extremely low rates and generous payback schedules for students.

Believe what you will...

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

* Start rebuilding America's crumbling infrastructure.

Kurt and others want to get the unemployed to do it.

I think it's a great idea.

If they are qualified, YES!

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

This country has a large tax base and all the resources we need to slowly and painfully work our way out of this historic mess.

You used the wrong tense! We *****HAD***** a large tax base. And it is dwindling.

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

We could really use a smarter electorate to get rid those on the national level who are simply gumming up the works and don't want to change/improve anything.

Everyone here knows what you mean. Sometimes gum helps hold things together! 8-)

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Bottom line is we all have a huge percentage of our population base who is out of work and who will never try to find a different way to provide for themselves.

Those who do, like ourselves, will be forced to carry and feed them.

I say...

Those folks are out of work because of this historic downturn and through no fault of their own.

Most of them have been working all their lives.

Since that's the case, we should carry them until things get better.

That is the way to create MORE welfare addicts!

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

- It may cost at least 100 Billion a year to carry 6 million unemployed - that's it.

- Note: 100 Billion a year will add less than 1% on to our national debt - per year.

That's dirt cheap!!

And every 10 years we can spend ANOTHER 100 billion, because that would only be 1% of the addition debt! WOW, what a concept! PLEASE, can you give me $100 Billion? I bet I could employ a LOT of people with that! And you are saying it is FREE! WOW!

I have to say though, you ARE consistant, partisan to the end!

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

That means NO NEW TAXES/FEES/etc...

A couple decades TOO LATE for that!

AGAIN, NO NEW TAXES/FEES, etc....

INVESTMENTS? INVESTMENTS??? Sounds like stocks/bonds. Why not do THAT and forget about the horrible charges to government?

You know who REALLY helped to outsource jobs? THE GOVERNMENT! AGAIN, I know that FIRST HAND! Computers popped up without such crazy financing. CARS, TV, etc... SAME!

One way is to NOT raise labor costs, have no new taxes or fees!

You have to fix the educational system FIRST!

Believe what you will...

If they are qualified, YES!

You used the wrong tense! We *****HAD***** a large tax base. And it is dwindling.

Everyone here knows what you mean. Sometimes gum helps hold things together! 8-)

That is the way to create MORE welfare addicts!

And every 10 years we can spend ANOTHER 100 billion, because that would only be 1% of the addition debt! WOW, what a concept! PLEASE, can you give me $100 Billion? I bet I could employ a LOT of people with that! And you are saying it is FREE! WOW!

I have to say though, you ARE consistant, partisan to the end!

Steve

( I won't bother with the other sniveling, destructive and petty remarks )

You said...

( about keeping the unemployed afloat through this crisis )

That is the way to create MORE welfare addicts!

I say...

Are you saying that people that worked all their lives are lazy and will be induced to stay on unemployment at 40% of their former salary????

Right now there's 5 jobs for every 1 applicant.

The jobs are not out there now.

Every study shows that it's cheaper to carry this particular group of unemployed instead of them missing house payments etc and the negative domino effects.

But you still say F* them.

I'm not surprised.

TL

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

That nice Tom.

But what if one party does not want to work with the other party on common sense proposals that are badly need and will improve the situation of a nation???

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

That nice Tom.

But what if one party does not want to work with the other party on common sense proposals that are badly need and will improve the situation of a nation???

TL

Happens all the time, why do you think so many people refuse to be a part of either party?

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Happens all the time, why do you think so many people refuse to be a part of either party?

Can I ask you a question???

In your opinion...

... is there any appreciable difference in the attitudes and policies directions of the two main parties???

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Can I ask you a question???

In your opinion...

... is there any appreciable difference in the attitudes and policies directions of the two main parties???

TL

Yes there are differences, but I think there is also some similarities.
Traditionally the dems where the working class party while the repubs was the party of the well off. I think as time has gone on both parties have continued to try and be for the people, but neither has a clue what the people want or need. Instead they are influenced by different lobbies
and those that contribute most to their campaigns.
It's not really either parties fault it's like this.
It's the fault of the American voting public.
To many people vote party lines instead of examining each candidate and voting for the one they truly feel is right for the job.
Watch the news on election night.
How many times do you see where a repub. won and the newscaster says a dem. has never won there, or visa-versa. That is all people voting party lines with no regard to the candidates themselves.

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Lawrh

14 years ago

This thread started as a simple observation and has devolved into a purely political "discussion". Are the rules getting lax or is this a game to see how long it goes before being killed?

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Lawrh

This thread started as a simple observation and has devolved into a purely political "discussion". Are the rules getting lax or is this a game to see how long it goes before being killed?

LOL,

I think it's a healthy discussion that's not getting too personal so maybe Paul is letting us go on.

TL

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HeySal

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

If it cost $1000, and I thought she would/could use it, on some "officials", I'd PAY for it!

I can get one for $40 bucks -- can I keep the change?

Originally Posted by Lawrh

This thread started as a simple observation and has devolved into a purely political "discussion". Are the rules getting lax or is this a game to see how long it goes before being killed?

Can we vote on just removing the partisan comments?

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Kay-

Can I ask you the same question I had for Tom???

In your opinion...

... is there any appreciable difference in the attitudes and policy directions of the two main parties???

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tamiro1992

14 years ago

300k is just too redicolous i dont know if it makes sense. just because of 1 flight? what!

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Ahem,

I don't think the nation needs 20 different immigration policies - that's why the AZ law is being challenged.

Besides protecting the border...

Have we decided what to do with all those illegals??

I've heard it's between 12 and 20 million of them.

Do we really go after the employers??

What will be the path to citizenship if any?

These are some of the questions that need to be answered with a new bill.

TL

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Ahem,

I don't think the nation needs 20 different immigration policies - that's why the AZ law is being challenged.

So you think they should just stop them on the street because they look different!?!? You REALLY hate that ONE LITTLE TWEAK!?!? WOW!!!!!

Have we decided what to do with all those illegals??

SHIP THEM BACK!

I've heard it's between 12 and 20 million of them.

OK, so you're for "too big to fail", huh?

Do we really go after the employers??

YEP!

What will be the path to citizenship if any?

Same as 100 years ago! HEY, back then they didn't even have computers! It should be SIMPLER and FASTER NOW! BTW it is tradition that if someone is cut cutting that THEY GO TO THE END OF THE LINE!

These are some of the questions that need to be answered with a new bill.

NOPE, I JUST answered them, SIMPLE, HUH!?

Steve
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HeySal

14 years ago

LOL - a new bill. Yeah that's what we need is MORE legislation and more government control. Why not just enforce laws as they stand? It would be cheaper and more productive for us in the long run.

The only things these people are to price cut are the things we as a society need - schools, health -- what they don't want to cut is anything that wreaks of being a boon for any of them in any way.

Something has to be done - check out this monitor of the debt - those numbers are clicking pretty damned fast: um - don't mind url article - the counter is on the right side of the page.

Martin Heinrich Considered Lost Cause by the DCCC|NM-1 CODE RED

And that's real good that they are starting in on Medicare fraud - since they have recognized that multiple billion going to it are fraudulent charges, it might be time for them to get their butts in gear on that one. Many in this country can't afford a doctor, we are soon to be forced to pay for insurance or will be fined (and what? Jailed if we refuse to pay the fine?) yet there are tens of billions of dollars being wracked up in the medical community via fraud? The support for a gov system that allows that depth of fraud is also coming out of our paychecks non-voluntarily.

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seasoned

14 years ago

I was thinking JUST YESTERDAY that my current customer spent OVER $20,000 JUST for some meetings I was involved in! That is only a SMALL portion! And it doesn't count all the handling of problems caused by failures of some complex logic. THAT could be in the 100s of thousands! And ALL that to handle a LOT of patients that have charges that probably average over $12,000 a *******WEEK********! So WHY do I mention that? Because they are due to people that we are REQUIRED to treat/record and they give FALSE information or fail to give information. And medicare/medicaid may not pay. They have reduced payments, and plan to reduce it further next month. AND those people make things more expensive for OTHERS.

And WHO ARE THEY!?!?!? Most are ILLEGAL ALIENS! And WHO pays for their treatment? Well, the american tax payer, anyone that pays medicare/medicaid, anyone with health insurance, and OTHERS. AND, sometimes, the REAL owner of an SSN! And if you happen to fall into 3 groups, you just get to pay 3 times!

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

WOW TL,

When you asked me for details and I made it clear I wouldn't give any, you pressed. You REALLY WANT to start a ahem "LIVELY" conversation, don't you?

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

WOW TL,

When you asked me for details and I made it clear I wouldn't give any, you pressed. You REALLY WANT to start a ahem "LIVELY" conversation, don't you?

Steve

I'll do you one better...

President Seasoned has just been elected in 2008.

He now explains how he would deal with this historic financial situation in the USA.

Let the world know as much as you can.

President Seasoned's Address To a Joint Session Of Congress:

TL

Ps.

I'm on my way to the NC beach with a bunch of family members so the floor is all yours.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I'll do you one better...

President Seasoned has just been elected in 2008.

He now explains how he would deal with this historic financial situation in the USA.

Let the world know as much as you can.

President Seasoned's Address To a Joint Session Of Congress:

TL

Ps.

I'm on my way to the NC beach with a bunch of family members so the floor is all yours.

FIRST, I would have to say WHO caused the problem, and somehow try to fix it. But to say that much HERE is too political, so, to quote someone that may have been a favorite character of yours.... "Homey don't play that"!

Steve

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Why would you think that was one of TL's favorite characters? 8-)

Originally Posted by seasoned

so, to quote someone that may have been a favorite character of yours.... "Homey don't play that"!

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Why would you think that was one of TL's favorite characters? 8-)

Ethnic, owned, created, and starring a black family, openly partisan, and the music. It WAS a popular show. AND, back then, the network was only viewed as perhaps risque, and not partisan, or at least not right leaning: In Living Color - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I knew a number of people that were so partisan and loved that show. And HEY, it was a nice leadin to a catch phrase that fit.

Steve

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Kay King

14 years ago

Tim -

What is the point of looking for alternative answers when the truth is available? You can look for the facts as I did.

Thinking your view might be correct, I did some deep digging to find references and info about the signing pens. I was surprised at how hard it was to find reliable info about this.

I would have been happier to find you were right as the cost would not been an issue if that were true. The facts are not a statement about one person or administration - most leaders have followed this practice.

I found the brand used, the cost of each pen, how they are customized and where they are distributed...and who pays for them.

If it makes you feel better to assume the facts don't exist so you can fit this small topic into your personal viewpoint seamlessly, that's up to you.
I prefer thinking, reasoning and digging for answers over blind loyalty to anyone. That's just me.

kay

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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Did I miss a link? That's all I asked for. I saw the Christian Science link but there was no mention of who paid for them. So, where is the truth available at?

Originally Posted by Kay King

Tim -

What is the point of looking for alternative answers when the truth is available? You can look for the facts as I did.

Thinking your view might be correct, I did some deep digging to find references and info about the signing pens. I was surprised at how hard it was to find reliable info about this.

I would have been happier to find you were right as the cost would not been an issue if that were true. The facts are not a statement about one person or administration - most leaders have followed this practice.

I found the brand used, the cost of each pen, how they are customized and where they are distributed...and who pays for them.

If it makes you feel better to assume the facts don't exist so you can fit this small topic into your personal viewpoint seamlessly, that's up to you.
I prefer thinking, reasoning and digging for answers over blind loyalty to anyone. That's just me.

kay

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ThomM 14 years ago

I was surprised at how hard it was to find reliable info about this.

Kay and Tim, seeing how I'm interested in this bit of trivia also I just emailed the White House and asked them.
I asked who pays for them, do they use more then one pen for every bill, and what do the pens cost.
Now lets see if I get a reply.
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Kay King

14 years ago

When you insist on pointing fingers at "the other side" it accomplishes nothing. We don't get do-overs - and we are talking a trillion a year, not a billion. It may be unavoidable but those are the numbers.

The unemployment extension bill was originally $112 billion - extensions were also included in Dec 09 in a $100 billion bill passed, and in March there was a $140 billion bill passed. The argument and delay resulted in the bill cut to covering unemployment only - without all the add-ins that seem to be part of every extension...thus the $33-34 billion approved.

Just watching the news - I have to leave home Sat/Sun to work (which includes braving the winds 90 ft above the water on the bridge) - right when the tropical storm will be sweeping in. Oh boy - my area turns into an island when the bay rises so driving can be tricky. Or it may not be too bad at all. Should be fine if Bonnie stays at current strength.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

When you insist on pointing fingers at "the other side" it accomplishes nothing.

We don't get do-overs - and we are talking a trillion a year, not a billion. It may be unavoidable but those are the numbers.

The unemployment extension bill was originally $112 billion - extensions were also included in Dec 09 in a $100 billion bill passed, and in March there was a $140 billion bill passed. The argument and delay resulted in the bill cut to covering unemployment only - without all the add-ins that seem to be part of every extension...thus the $33-34 billion approved.

Just watching the news - I have to leave home Sat/Sun to work (which includes braving the winds 90 ft above the water on the bridge) - right when the tropical storm will be sweeping in. Oh boy - my area turns into an island when the bay rises so driving can be tricky. Or it may not be too bad at all. Should be fine if Bonnie stays at current strength.

You said...

When you insist on pointing fingers at "the other side" it accomplishes nothing. We don't get do-overs - and we are talking a trillion a year, not a billion. It may be unavoidable but those are the numbers.

I say...

A Trillion a year for what??

TL

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

A Trillion a year for what??

EXACTLY! SEE, YOU CAN GET IT! 8-)
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Kay King

14 years ago

A Trillion a year for what??

That's what I've been wondering, too.

Okay - I finally found the article I read recently. It's from a Treasury report so shouldn't be biased - though I'm sure someone will say it is.
It could be I've misinterpreted it.

U.S debt to rise to $19.6 trillion by 2015 | Reuters

The amount of debt held by investors, which include China and other countries as well as individuals and pension funds, will rise to an estimated $9.1 trillion this year from $7.5 trillion last year.

I also read somewhere that .41 cents of each dollar spent now is borrowed. To me, those are frightening numbers. But - I'm not an economist and don't deal in numbers that large

There are so many number and percentages and other blah-blah thrown around to prove one point or another - it's hard to know what's really important and what isn't.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I also read somewhere that .41 cents of each dollar spent now is borrowed. To me, those are frightening numbers. But - I'm not an economist and don't deal in numbers that large

Credit agencies don't want ANYONE to spend more than 30% on debt maintenance!

Steve

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John Henderson

14 years ago

[DELETED]

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ThomM 14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Henderson

Hey Thom,

Did you also remember to ask whether the POTUS would be willing to fly coach class...?

One step at a time John
Besides Air Force 1 is a mobile command unit, in an emergency he still has full command from that plane.
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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Henderson

Hey Thom,

Did you also remember to ask whether the POTUS would be willing to fly coach class...?

If he DID, and I DOUBT IT, you can BET he would have over 12 secret service agents, and 5 other seats left open. Cost to europe, over 1 coach seat? ~$29,000! Approx $1000 per seat, and about $1000 for the SECSERV AGENTS(10 hours *$50/hour*2). Then again, even THAT is a discount! That isn't enough to fly airforce one for even 1 hour.

Steve
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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Henderson

Hey Thom,

Did you also remember to ask whether the POTUS would be willing to fly coach class...?

Did you remember to ask the Queen if she flew coach to New York last month?

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John Henderson

14 years ago

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Kay King 14 years ago

The thread's comparing Cameron with Obama.

It was not meant to - and I know because I started the thread.

We've gotten to the point that any discussion about economy, housing, unemployment, even signing pens - can't be held here because a few have to jump in to defend their guy even when he's not under discussion.

Sad, but true - and happening even in a resurrected year old thread. It turns into snide rhetoric and heated arguments that lead nowhere.

I still admire Cameron for the way he traveled....so there.

kay
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Kurt

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Henderson

No need to get defensive, Kurt. The thread's comparing Cameron with Obama.

Defensive? That would be YOU. I asked a question that was in direct response to your dumb question about Obama, which was very condescending. Sorry my bringing up the Queen spending money ruinied your Cameron buzz...

And as Kay pointed out, she didn't make any comparisons in her OP, so I guess it's OK for YOU to use comparisons but not me? Sorry, but I disagree. The truth is, you were upset at my comparison that brought up the Queen, not the fact that it was a new comparison.

PS: Who here was impressed with Joe Biden taking the train to work AND home from DC to Delaware for 30+ years? He rode in the same car as all the working people and got to know many of them over the years.

Anyone care to comment on how Joe Biden traveled? He didn't just ride coach for a single trip, he did it for decades....And he is our Vice President.

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Defensive? That would be YOU. I asked a question that was in direct response to your dumb question about Obama, which was very condescending. Sorry my bringing up the Queen spending money ruinied your Cameron buzz...

And as Kay pointed out, she didn't make any comparisons in her OP, so I guess it's OK for YOU to use comparisons but not me? Sorry, but I disagree. The truth is, you were upset at my comparison that brought up the Queen, not the fact that it was a new comparison.

PS: Who here was impressed with Joe Biden taking the train to work AND home from DC to Delaware for 30+ years? He rode in the same car as all the working people and got to know many of them over the years.

Anyone care to comment on how Joe Biden traveled? He didn't just ride coach for a single trip, he did it for decades....And he is our Vice President.

OK, and I haven't been home in over a month to cut expenses. I bet a lot of people in the pentagon drive to work.

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Defensive? That would be YOU. I asked a question that was in direct response to your dumb question about Obama, which was very condescending. Sorry my bringing up the Queen spending money ruinied your Cameron buzz...

And as Kay pointed out, she didn't make any comparisons in her OP, so I guess it's OK for YOU to use comparisons but not me? Sorry, but I disagree. The truth is, you were upset at my comparison that brought up the Queen, not the fact that it was a new comparison.

PS: Who here was impressed with Joe Biden taking the train to work AND home from DC to Delaware for 30+ years? He rode in the same car as all the working people and got to know many of them over the years.

Anyone care to comment on how Joe Biden traveled? He didn't just ride coach for a single trip, he did it for decades....And he is our Vice President.

OK, and I haven't been home in over a month to cut expenses. I bet a lot of people in the pentagon drive to work.

Still, if I worked for a company, and I saved them $1000, and a coworker cost them a million more, I don't think they would thank the company.

Steve

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HeySal

14 years ago

So it's not ground breaking - but it's still a good idea. This is meant to tighten the regulations in the original bill of 2002. The pres does seem dedicated to making some headway on overspending.

Private jet for the dog.
Special flights for cooks and outrageously expensive dinners nightly.
$100,000 bar tab on taxpayers (no - that wasn't O that was someone else in the WH though)

They need to cut THEIR spending, too. When you have constituents starving and homeless, you don't allow for someone to charge them $100,000 bucks for booze or a private flight for their dog.

We need to get people who think like Royalty out of office and put those who understand we are employers, and they don't have carte blanche credit cards that they can just party harty with. It pisses me off to no end the way our officals think that those credit cards are for any damned luxury they want to treat themselves to -- while their people go without the basic necessities.

We didn't need to leave England for this crap.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Here's 22 ways the first family is not like the rest of us and perhaps in some folks' opinions wasting a bit of our taxpayer funds...

( it's a matter of opinion as far as I'm concerned )...

Note: Kay and Tim - the pres also has personalized pens.

Here's the slide show if you're interested...

22 Ways The Obamas Are NOT Just Like Us (PHOTOS)

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Here's 22 ways the first family is not like the rest of us and perhaps in some folks' opinions wasting a bit of our taxpayer funds...

( it's a matter of opinion as far as I'm concerned )...

Note: Kay and Tim - the pres also has personalized pens.

Here's the slide show if you're interested...

22 Ways The Obamas Are NOT Just Like Us (PHOTOS)

Gee TL that wasn't very impressive

I have a friend that manages a small horse farm that has some of those things also.
Not the plane, but he has an indoor and outdoor basketball court.
Regardless of what I think of the current or past presidents, they have to have one of if not the toughest jobs on earth. As long as they don't abuse it, I think they need some extra privileges (sp) if for nothing else then to unwind.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Gee TL that wasn't very impressive

I have a friend that manages a small horse farm that has some of those things also.

Not the plane, but he has an indoor and outdoor basketball court.

Regardless of what I think of the current or past presidents, they have to have one of if not the toughest jobs on earth.

As long as they don't abuse it, I think they need some extra privileges (sp) if for nothing else then to unwind.

I agree that POTUS need extra perks because of the nature of the job.

For example, they can't go to the movies like the rest of us.

I didn't post this slide show story etc. to prove something impressive.

Notice the headline...

I simply thought it would be an interesting addition to the thread since some of the items could be viewed as waste.

TL

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I agree that POTUS need extra perks because of the nature of the job.

For example, they can't go to the movies like the rest of us.

I didn't post this slide show story etc. to prove something impressive.

Notice the headline...

I simply thought it would be an interesting addition to the thread since some of the items could be viewed as waste.

TL

But they clearly have abused it. ICSM but, you know....

Hey, that slideshow said they had their OWN theater. If they REALLY wanted to they could get the film. I bet the most expensive one at the WORST terms would cost less than 1 hour, and VERY possibly less than 1 MINUTE on air force one! The typical plane today takes about 15 minutes JUST from door closure to wheels off the ground!!!!!!! It ALSO typically takes about 15 minutes from landing to the door opening.

And with that, I might mention the jaunt of air force one to get a picture of it by the statue of liberty.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE53Q3S820090427
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30435336/

It WAS funny though, kids ALL OVER said they would have photoshopped it for less.

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

But they clearly have abused it. ICSM but, you know....

Hey, that slideshow said they had their OWN theater. If they REALLY wanted to they could get the film. I bet the most expensive one at the WORST terms would cost less than 1 hour, and VERY possibly less than 1 MINUTE on air force one! The typical plane today takes about 15 minutes JUST from door closure to wheels off the ground!!!!!!! It ALSO typically takes about 15 minutes from landing to the door opening.

And with that, I might mention the jaunt of air force one to get a picture of it by the statue of liberty.

Obama plane photo op startles New Yorkers | Reuters
Obama: New York City flyover was mistake - U.S. news - Security - msnbc.com

It WAS funny though, kids ALL OVER said they would have photoshopped it for less.

Steve

Predicable.

That AForce 1 plane ride you mentioned was without authorization and the person who authorized it was dismissed.

Only you and a small minority of folks would seriously think about getting rid of Air Force 1.

You could say more???

You could, but will it make any sense to most people??

TL

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Predicable.

That AForce 1 plane ride you mentioned was without authorization and the person who authorized it was dismissed.

Only you and a small minority of folks would seriously think about getting rid of Air Force 1.

You could say more???

You could, but will it make any sense to most people??

TL

I didn't say get rid of it. Funny how the deal wasn't mentioned earlier. And how did it get so far without REALLY high approval? Of course, that WAS the only example where supposedly he wasn't there. Others go too far elsewhere.

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Maybe the admin can save some money by everyone doing multiple jobs within the admin - like this extra hardworking family...

YouTube - ‪In Living Color: Hey Mon/The...

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

How about the bruhaha over the FLOTUS trip to Spain and her being compared to...

... Marie Antonette?

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

How about the bruhaha over the FLOTUS trip to Spain and her being compared to...

... Marie Antonette?

Well...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...y-2048108.html

Conservative critics seized on details of her itinerary to paint her – and by extension her husband the President – as at best tone-deaf and at worst feckless. There was the choice of the five-star Hotel Villa Padierna in Marbella where rooms go for as much as $7,000 (£4,400) per night, for instance, and the commotion caused when a beach was briefly roped off to allow her to swim.

Even a lunch with the Spanish King and Queen – a diplomatic gesture – at the Marivent Palace in Palma de Mallorca on Sunday was cast by parts of the American media as being overly luxurious, featuring, we were breathlessly informed: "Andalusian-style chilled gazpacho soup, chargrilled turbot, veal escalopes with mustard, Oriental rice with sautéed mushrooms."

It was New York Daily News columnist Andrea Tantaros who said the trip made her look like a modern-day Marie Antoinette. Barack and Michelle Obama have asked the country to make sacrifices in hard times, Tantaros noted, yet "while most of the country is pinching pennies and downsizing summer sojourns... the Obamas don't seem to be heeding their own advice."
...
Dowd – normally an Obama supporter who shares few other views with the likes of Beck and Tantaros – went on to ask why the first lady was in Spain and not somewhere near the BP spill. "If Michelle had wanted a closed beach, she could have headed to our gulf, " she wrote at the weekend. "There are plenty of multi-star hotels there, and she and the girls could have cleaned a few pelicans."

ICSM but *I* feel it kind of speaks for itself anyway. And what is all this with roping off, etc... HECK, I have a friend who told me once how she and her mother went with others to, among other things, keep people out of stores so the clintons could shop at the glendale galleria.

And people speak about how the hotel was chosen by the secret service. MAYBE, but to be the only place in all of spain, and why in spain at all? So frankly, that statement is dumb. It is like a person going into a Rolls royce dealership and saying you bought a rolls royce because that is all they had. HECK, president bush senior was across the street from my apartment building, IN A PARK! The secret service DID check my roof for access, etc... but they weren't OVERLY cautious. The park was only a block, and SURROUNDED by streets. I don't even remember them being blocked off. And people WERE given free access. I even watched a while myself. Even arnold schwartzenegger was there. Don't get me wrong though, there WERE secret service there also. One wonders what is up if they are SO cautious in spain.

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well...
Let them eat tapas? Mrs Obama faces holiday fury - News, People - The Independent

ICSM but *I* feel it kind of speaks for itself anyway. And what is all this with roping off, etc... HECK, I have a friend who told me once how she and her mother went with others to, among other things, keep people out of stores so the clintons could shop at the glendale galleria.

And people speak about how the hotel was chosen by the secret service. MAYBE, but to be the only place in all of spain, and why in spain at all? So frankly, that statement is dumb. It is like a person going into a Rolls royce dealership and saying you bought a rolls royce because that is all they had. HECK, president bush senior was across the street from my apartment building, IN A PARK! The secret service DID check my roof for access, etc... but they weren't OVERLY cautious. The park was only a block, and SURROUNDED by streets. I don't even remember them being blocked off. And people WERE given free access. I even watched a while myself. Even arnold schwartzenegger was there. Don't get me wrong though, there WERE secret service there also. One wonders what is up if they are SO cautious in spain.

Steve

Interesting...

- Most people on the left don't have a major problem with it.

- Forces on the right are going to take every op to try and knock her down a few pegs - in the eyes of the population - since she's very popular.

- The press runs with it cause they need a story or two or 3.

- Independents are split down the middle.

- Doris Kerns Goodwin, one of our best presidential historians didn't think there was anything out of line or wrong with it and...

... CNN's Don Lemon cut short his interview with Doris when she wouldn't cooperate with the bashing of the FLOTUS or the admin.

Interesting!

IMHO...

Prseident Bush#1 is an ex president and should have secret service protection for the rest of his life.

Since he's an ex, the level of security does not have to be a high as with the family of a sitting president.

I think things have been changed and starting with president Bush#2 the ex presidents get secret serv protection for only 10 years after leaving to office.

I think it should be protected until the end of their lives.

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Well I doubt she paid for anything and I have a strong feeling we did instead.
There have been a few items on the news lately that showed our government (on both sides) don't give a rats ass about us.
This is just another nail in their coffin as far as I'm concerned.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Well I doubt she paid for anything and I have a strong feeling we did instead.
There have been a few items on the news lately that showed our government (on both sides) don't give a rats ass about us.
This is just another nail in their coffin as far as I'm concerned.

Thom,

Nail in their coffin???

I'm pretty sure she at least paid for her room. ( @$2,500 per night )

They were very careful to separate private expenses from the public ones because they knew there would be a lot of criticism started by the folks on the right and then echoed by the msm.

- She also went on a diplomatic mission to the King Of Spain.

I think the total public expenses were about 25% more than if she had gone to a vacation on the west coast.

TL

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Well I doubt she paid for anything and I have a strong feeling we did instead.
There have been a few items on the news lately that showed our government (on both sides) don't give a rats ass about us.
This is just another nail in their coffin as far as I'm concerned.

Nail in their coffin??

I'd love to hear about those news items ( on both sides ) that prove that the feds don't give a rats ass about the public.

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I'd love to hear about those news items.

TL

The one that comes to mind is Cheney's daughter.
From what I gathered she has a govt. job now.
When asked what she thought about 80 % of one state not wanting the new govt. health care bill she replied it doesn't matter what the people want.

As far as my nail in the coffin comment, people are paying attention to what is going on. Come election day, people will remember.

She also went on a diplomatic mission to the King Of Spain

Did we really need a diplomatic mission at this time, or is that the excuse for spending our tax dollars.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

The one that comes to mind is Cheney's daughter.
From what I gathered she has a govt. job now.

When asked what she thought about 80 % of one state not wanting the new govt. health care bill she replied it doesn't matter what the people want.

As far as my nail in the coffin comment, people are paying attention to what is going on. Come remember.election day, people will

Did we really need a diplomatic mission at this time, or is that the excuse for spending our tax dollars.

She is not a gov official of any sort.

From Wikepedia...

Elizabeth Cheney Perry (born July 28, 1966), commonly called Liz, is an American attorney. During the George W. Bush administration years, she held positions in the State Department of the United States.

She has been politically active on behalf of the Republican Party and is a co-founder of Keep America Safe.

She is the daughter of former Vice President of the United States Dick Cheney and Lynne Cheney.

I'm sure I heard her say the opposite in another situation when she wanted to use poll numbers to criticize the present admin. ( saying that the admin should listen to the poll numbers )

But someone pointed out that her dad said exactly the opposite...

....that govs shouldn't be swayed by temporary winds of public opinion.

What is it that you believe people will remember and what is it that you think folks will do in the mid terms of 2010??

- Will the house or senate change hands?

- Will the status quo continue?

- Will the minority party make small to medium gains in either the house or the senate?

- Will the majority party increase their numbers??

All The Best!!

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

She is not a gov official of any sort.

From Wikepedia...

Elizabeth Cheney Perry (born July 28, 1966), commonly called Liz, is an American attorney. During the George W. Bush administration years, she held positions in the State Department of the United States.

She has been politically active on behalf of the Republican Party and is a co-founder of Keep America Safe.

She is the daughter of former Vice President of the United States Dick Cheney and Lynne Cheney.

I'm sure I heard her say the opposite in another situation when she wanted to use poll numbers to criticize the present admin. ( saying that the admin should listen to the poll numbers )

But someone pointed out that her dad said exactly the opposite...

....that govs shouldn't be swayed by temporary winds of public opinion.

What is it that you believe people will remember and what is it that you think folks will do in the mid terms of 2010??

- Will the house or senate change hands?

- Will the status quo continue?

- Will the minority party make small to medium gains in either the house or the senate?

- Will the majority party increase their numbers??

All The Best!!

TL

I wasn't paying that close of attention to the Cheney thing, just what she said and then they showed an earlier interview with her old man on a different subject basically saying the same thing, what we say doesn't matter. Like father like daughter I guess.
I don't know what will happen in the next election.
If history holds, it will be business as usual.
I know I haven't seen any big change in govt.
As much as people spout vote them out, when I look at facebook pages of elected officials on the state and fed. level, it seems most people are still standing behind those in power. I guess they like the smell of their asses or something.
On the whole, I think people are afraid of change.
People like to bitch about what they don't like, or think they don't like, but when it comes to changing it they get cold feet.
How many people do you know who bitch about their jobs, yet they still go to it day after day.
The last time I voted for an incumbent in any election was Clinton.
It's not because I have anything against incumbents in general, I just haven't seen any that I felt deserved to be re-elected.
As I'm sure I mentioned before, I have no party affiliation though I have never voted for a republican in a national election. In state or local elections I have. On the fed. level I'm looking for 3 main things.
1. Smaller fed. govt.
2. Follow and support the Constitution.
3. Legalize Cannabis with an apology to us.

Until there is a candidate with those views that make it on the ballot, I have no use for any of them.

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Kay King 14 years ago

Spain trip - cost to taxpayers reported by MSNBC (not a conservative media) was about $250,000 for entourage and security. Personal expenses were paid and reimbursement made for the cost of a "commercial" plane ticket to balance the $150k or so (estimates vary, of course) cost of the flight to and from Spain.

Don't begrudge the vacation - but it was an in your face gesture to all of the wonderful resort areas in this country that are desperate for business. Don't think it was meant to be that - but impressions count.

Liz Cheney was handed govt jobs for several years - I ignore her. How many people in this country get the kind of medical attention her father has had for years? Only the very rich and the very connected. As for Lizzie - I expect she'll be running for an office one of these days - ugh.

kay
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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I wasn't paying that close of attention to the Cheney thing, just what she said and then they showed an earlier interview with her old man on a different subject basically saying the same thing, what we say doesn't matter. Like father like daughter I guess.
I don't know what will happen in the next election.
If history holds, it will be business as usual.
I know I haven't seen any big change in govt.
As much as people spout vote them out, when I look at facebook pages of elected officials on the state and fed. level, it seems most people are still standing behind those in power. I guess they like the smell of their asses or something.
On the whole, I think people are afraid of change.
People like to bitch about what they don't like, or think they don't like, but when it comes to changing it they get cold feet.
How many people do you know who bitch about their jobs, yet they still go to it day after day.
The last time I voted for an incumbent in any election was Clinton.
It's not because I have anything against incumbents in general, I just haven't seen any that I felt deserved to be re-elected.
As I'm sure I mentioned before, I have no party affiliation though I have never voted for a republican in a national election. In state or local elections I have. On the fed. level I'm looking for 3 main things.
1. Smaller fed. govt.
2. Follow and support the Constitution.
3. Legalize Cannabis with an apology to us.

Until there is a candidate with those views that make it on the ballot, I have no use for any of them.

I've heard a lot of people mention smaller government and follow and support the constitution.

What exactly do you mean when you say those 2 things?

By smaller gov to you mean a balanced budget and no national debt or perhaps a less intrusive federal gov???

Regarding the constitution...

Has anyone been abusing the constitution?

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I've heard a lot of people mention smaller government and follow and support the constitution.

What exactly do you mean when you say those 2 things?

By smaller gov to you mean a balanced budget and no national debt or perhaps a less intrusive federal gov???

Regarding the constitution...

Has anyone been abusing the constitution?

TL

A less intrusive fed. govt to start.
The question is can you show anyone who hasn't been abusing the constitution? When we invaded Iraq, we did it illegally according to the constitution. By staying there at all we continue to abuse it.
No president can declare an act of war without the consent and support of congress. Bush did not have either when he invaded Iraq. So there is a constitution abuse. When O was elected, by continuing the war, he has by defacto done the same thing.
Calling it a police action or whatever doesn't change the fact that it is an illegal war.

Thomas Jefferson has been attributed with a lot of quotes, some true some not.
Read the ones here http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors...son-quotes.htm
That have been proven to be true, and see if any apply to what's going on today.
Here's 2 of my favorites.
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

A less intrusive fed. govt to start.
The question is can you show anyone who hasn't been abusing the constitution? When we invaded Iraq, we did it illegally according to the constitution. By staying there at all we continue to abuse it.

No president can declare an act of war without the consent and support of congress.

Bush did not have either when he invaded Iraq. So there is a constitution abuse. When O was elected, by continuing the war, he has by defacto done the same thing.

Calling it a police action or whatever doesn't change the fact that it is an illegal war.

Thomas Jefferson has been attributed with a lot of quotes, some true some not.
Read the ones here The Writings of Thomas Jefferson-Truth! & Unproven!
That have been proven to be true, and see if any apply to what's going on today.
Here's 2 of my favorites.
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

Nice quotes by TJ.

The founders should have written into the constitution that congress can not give up authority to declare war.

Like the bill of rights can not be changed.

Anyways...

Congress gave Bush2 a blank check ( a resolution ) to fight terrorism and he took it and ran with it.

I guess you're also saying the O should have pulled the troops out of Iraq & Afganistan...

... as soon as he walked into office and simply disregarded all the consequences of doing so??

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Nice quotes by TJ.

The founders should have written into the constitution that congress can not give up authority to declare war.

Like the bill of rights can not be changed.

Anyways...

Congress gave Bush2 a blank check ( a resolution ) to fight terrorism and he took it and ran with it.

I guess you're also saying the O should have pulled the troops out of Iraq & Afganistan...

... as soon as he walked into office and simply disregarded all the consequences of doing so??

TL

What about the consequences of us being there.
As I've said many times before, read about blow back (the CIA term) and look at our history of interfering in the middle east.

WOW, WHAT IS IT with cannabis!?!? Some LOVE it. Personally, I DON'T. I agree with you on the other points though.

Steve we have been lied to about Cannabis since the thirty's.
If you get the chance read Jack Herer's (RIP) The Emperor Wears No Clothes.
Jack Herer - Chapters
It's all documented there.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

What about the consequences of us being there.
As I've said many times before, read about blow back (the CIA term) and look at our history of interfering in the middle east.

Steve we have been lied to about Cannabis since the thirty's.
If you get the chance read Jack Herer's (RIP) The Emperor Wears No Clothes.
Jack Herer - Chapters
It's all documented there.

You said...

What about the consequences of us being there.

As I've said many times before, read about blow back (the CIA term) and look at our history of interfering in the middle east.

I say...

Thank God Bush2 did not get a formal "declaration of war" because from what I hear, a formal DOW means something like ...

...he would have been a defacto dictator!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...

...and able to do anything he wanted with the resources of this nation.

Iraq is almost over.

How about giving the guy a chance to salvage some of our strategic objectives and wind down these wars with honor and dignity.

I guess we'll be in Afghanistan another couple of years at the least - that war should have been way over by now.

It's just another part of the mess he walked in on - that's a fact.

TL

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ThomM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

You said...

What about the consequences of us being there.

As I've said many times before, read about blow back (the CIA term) and look at our history of interfering in the middle east.

I say...

Thank God Bush2 did not get a formal "declaration of war" because from what I hear, a formal DOW means something like ...

...he would have been a defacto dictator!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...

...and able to do anything he wanted with the resources of this nation.

Iraq is almost over.

How about giving the guy a chance to salvage some of our strategic objectives and wind down these wars with honor and dignity.

I guess we'll be in Afghanistan another couple of years at the least - that war should have been way over by now.

It's just another part of the mess he walked in on - that's a fact.

TL

That's pretty comical really.
We have no right being there period.
If it wasn't for our involvement there when Russia attacked Afghanistan we could very well have avoided the circumstances that brought us back there now. Remember we worked with Bin Laden, we helped finance El Queda with guns and training, we tried to push our objectives which pissed them off at us in the first place.
The only way we come out of there with honor and dignity is to leave now and apologize for being there in the first place.
There is no honor or dignity in this war.
You don't think him or the current are doing what they want with our resources?
How much of our money have they spent there and continue to do so?
Trillions in debt, yet we still fork over billions a month for this war.

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TLTheLiberator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

That's pretty comical really.
We have no right being there period.
If it wasn't for our involvement there when Russia attacked Afghanistan we could very well have avoided the circumstances that brought us back there now. Remember we worked with Bin Laden, we helped finance El Queda with guns and training, we tried to push our objectives which pissed them off at us in the first place.
The only way we come out of there with honor and dignity is to leave now and apologize for being there in the first place.
There is no honor or dignity in this war.
You don't think him or the current are doing what they want with our resources?
How much of our money have they spent there and continue to do so?
Trillions in debt, yet we still fork over billions a month for this war.

Whewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....

Doesn't look like there is any middle ground to be found here, so I'll just bow out of this particular conversation.

TL

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Whewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....

Doesn't look like there is any middle ground to be found here, so I'll just bow out of this particular conversation.

TL

Gee, it sounded to me like he kind of agreed with you. Frankly, if I were king, I would have stayed out of the whole thing. HECK Christianity and Judiasm might have had a better chance there if we didn't give them such a scape goat to build hatred on. HECK, even AMERICANS supposedly have joined their fight. That is LUDICROUS! And the fact that we supported israel certainly didn't help. We supported a group that were considered enemies of all around. Of course, like that afghan war, we now really have no choice. If we get out of afghanistan, they may hate our guts, we'll look like BIGGER fools, and there may be blowback. If we stopped funding israel the SAME would happen, we could lose israel, and it would look like we did it BECAUSE of terrorism.

It is IRONIC! The Jewish people were told not to consort with gentiles, because there would be problems later. MAN did THAT prophecy ever get fulfiilled. And the book of revelation says that the third temple would be missing a wall "Because it was given over to the gentiles". GEE, you think they could be talking about that wall that is now against a MOSQUE!? And NOW, we have the WTC with ANOTHER mosque!

It would be NICE if we could prove a negative. If we could prove who was right about god, or that there was no god, or that people simply ceased to be when they died, we could maybe try to reason without any garbage from the so called "clerics". I'm not going to even claim I know everything about anything, but the senseless hatred for hatred's sake, and "holy wars" are certainly nothing any just god would sanction.

That said, my dislike for the new mosque has NOTHING to do with religion. It is based on how many people in that group tend to think and the symbolism. Further, it is emotional and inflamatory against those in the area.

BTW there are over 7million muslims in the US. That is over 2% of ALL residents in the US!
And there are 230 mosques in New York!

Steve
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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

You said...

What about the consequences of us being there.

As I've said many times before, read about blow back (the CIA term) and look at our history of interfering in the middle east.

I say...

Thank God Bush2 did not get a formal "declaration of war" because from what I hear, a formal DOW means something like ...

...he would have been a defacto dictator!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...

...and able to do anything he wanted with the resources of this nation.

Iraq is almost over.

How about giving the guy a chance to salvage some of our strategic objectives and wind down these wars with honor and dignity.

I guess we'll be in Afghanistan another couple of years at the least - that war should have been way over by now.

It's just another part of the mess he walked in on - that's a fact.

TL

A declaration of war does NOT mean the POTUS gets to do whatever he wants.

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Nice quotes by TJ.

The founders should have written into the constitution that congress can not give up authority to declare war.

Like the bill of rights can not be changed.

Anyways...

Congress gave Bush2 a blank check ( a resolution ) to fight terrorism and he took it and ran with it.

I guess you're also saying the O should have pulled the troops out of Iraq & Afganistan...

... as soon as he walked into office and simply disregarded all the consequences of doing so??

TL

HEY, BUSH wasn't the first to break the law, and certainly not the last. ICSM... But the bill of rights has been trampled on a LOT!

Let's see....

1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, YEP! Almost a straight run! I could say more.

There have even been LAWS made against EVERY one! THANKS by the way! I prepared a case against preference should I AGAIN be harrassed by such a thing. They ALSO denied me my 7th amendment rights! Never mind the 5th, etc...

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I've heard a lot of people mention smaller government and follow and support the constitution.

What exactly do you mean when you say those 2 things?

By smaller gov to you mean a balanced budget and no national debt or perhaps a less intrusive federal gov???

Regarding the constitution...

Has anyone been abusing the constitution?

TL

Well, a balanced budget. A *****REAL***** balanced budget would REQUIRE a smaller government. By REAL balanced budget, I mean to actually have REAL money coming in, lower expenses and have debts no higher than assets. But how could they do that? Just social security ALONE costs more than the government has, let alone everything else. ICSM!

And YEAH, a LOT of people have abused the constitution. ICSM THERE also!

Steve

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

As I'm sure I mentioned before, I have no party affiliation though I have never voted for a republican in a national election. In state or local elections I have. On the fed. level I'm looking for 3 main things.
1. Smaller fed. govt.
2. Follow and support the Constitution.
3. Legalize Cannabis with an apology to us.

Until there is a candidate with those views that make it on the ballot, I have no use for any of them.

WOW, WHAT IS IT with cannabis!?!? Some LOVE it. Personally, I DON'T. I agree with you on the other points though.

Steve

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