Tomorrow's Anniversary

14 years ago

My prayers are with our soldiers and those of our allies always.

I also pray for the families who lost loved ones on 9-11.

Yes it was the worst day in American history.

It was a horrible tragedy alright but you know something, last night I was watching programs that showed the horror through the eyes of several photographers who were there.

It occurred to me that when I was wahooing "Stormin Norman" everytime they hit something in Desert Storm, that there were victims and civilians being killed and terrorized in the same way as 9-11.

I think that is the lesson the terrorists are trying to teach us. There are victims of war and now we are them. It was not imaginable before it happened on our own soil to visualize what it is like to be attacked.

Yup, big wake up call.

(I am NOT condoning what they did and hope all terrorists will rot in hell)

We need to bring our armies home to protect our borders - that is where we should be sticking our noses.

p.s. Very nice web page. Thank you.

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Doug

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

It occurred to me that when I was wahooing "Stormin Norman" everytime they hit something in Desert Storm, that there were victims and civilians being killed and terrorized in the same way as 9-11.

I think that is the lesson the terrorists are trying to teach us. There are victims of war and now we are them. It was not imaginable before it happened on our own soil to visualize what it is like to be attacked.

YIKERS! While I understand your sentiment, there is absolutely no comparison.

The entire awe of the Gulf War was the precision with which we fought(our means), purposeful in mitigating civilian causalities(our end).

In the lead up to the war ample time was given for Iraq to move out of Kuwait and Saddam choose to hold the line. All the while watching the build up that was coming. We pulled no sucker punch.

Though we took great effort to not kill civilians during the Gulf War some did die, and yes terrifying. However, it wasn't an act of terror.

On the other hand, the terrorists on 9-11 used our greatest asset, a free and open society, to sucker punch us using civilian aircraft as their weapons.

They were purposeful in destroying as many lives as they could - Their means, civilian targets. Their end, 99.8% of those killed...civilians.

They hid amongst us, all the while planning their evil. We do neither.

Originally Posted by Patrician

(I am NOT condoning what they did and hope all terrorists will rot in hell)

Again, I understand your sentiment Patrician, my words are not a personal attack on you...to me there is quite a distinction between behaviors.

All I'll say.

Doug

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Patrician

14 years ago

Hi Doug.

Notice I referred to Desert Storm, not the Gulf War, ok? We were quite a bit 'softer and gentler' in the latter.

I do know that the civilian casualties are a result of human error on our part.

However, with people ranting and raving and foaming at the mouth while burning our flag all over the world, I am sure they are not giving us the benefit of the doubt.

I guess I have to show my yellow stripe. I think war is wrong. I think that if we can go to the moon and clone human beings that we should be able to negotiate (even with mad dogs) to some degree. (my apologies to canines)

I am against the thousands of our sons and daughters who have been killed and maimed in the name of somebody else's problems - period - On our soil, that is another story.

'Two wrongs never make a right'.

So anyway let's just agree to disagree if we gotta, my friend. Don't hold it against me...

p.s. again, don't get me wrong those were evil demons and I mean that literally not figuratively who pulled off 9-11 - i can't wait to see them boiling in oil forever someday.

I am glad you 'get the sentiment' because I know it is comparing apples and oranges our errors vs. their purposeful murder.

Originally Posted by Doug

YIKERS! While I understand your sentiment, there is absolutely no comparison.

The entire awe of the Gulf War was the precision with which we fought(our means), purposeful in mitigating civilian causalities(our end).

In the lead up to the war ample time was given for Iraq to move out of Kuwait and Saddam choose to hold the line. All the while watching the build up that was coming. We pulled no sucker punch.

Though we took great effort to not kill civilians during the Gulf War some did die, and yes terrifying. However, it wasn't an act of terror.

On the other hand, the terrorists on 9-11 used our greatest asset, a free and open society, to sucker punch us using civilian aircraft as their weapons.

They were purposeful in destroying as many lives as they could - Their means, civilian targets. Their end, 99.8% of those killed...civilians.

They hid amongst us, all the while planning their evil. We do neither.

Again, I understand your sentiment Patrician, my words are not a personal attack on you...to me there is quite a distinction between behaviors.

All I'll say.

Doug

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TimPhelan 14 years ago

The first Gulf war was run well in many regards, including mitigating civilian deaths. However, I can't say the same for the two wars since, especially regarding civilian deaths.

Originally Posted by Doug

The entire awe of the Gulf War was the precision with which we fought(our means), purposeful in mitigating civilian causalities(our end).
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seasoned

14 years ago

Patrician,

You are right about protecting the US. The US seems to be the only country that isn't TRULY sovereign. ICSM! But the terrorists are clearly not doing this to teach us a lesson.

They want to NEVER EVER have ANYTHING against their culture, fears, religion, attempts to convert or practice even the WORST things. They ALSO HATE anyone that in any way supports anyone that they hate. THAT is why they hate us for supporting israel, and why they HATED denmark for supporting a cartoonist that drew a cartoon against mohamud, etc... AND, on the surface, it MIGHT seem reasonable, but they ALSO hate us for harboring a girl, that feared for her life, that was brought up muslim, but converted. HECK, look at southpark! Southpark:

1. insults jews.
2. insults christians
3. insults satanists
4. it EVEN insults saddam!
5. insults rightwing people
6. Insults HINDUS

But you notice it does NOT insult muslims! They THOUGHT about it! Apparently they DID it, but it was never shown.

So WHY are they allowed to make other cultures look as they do? They make god look like some little weird pipsqueak. hey make jesus look like some sort of primadona that lives on earth and is on talk shows. They make sadam a homosexual that is a jealous lover of satan with the devil looking almost like what people think of when they think of satan, but beihg more sedate in his predation.

So WE can be insulted more directly, but insulting a relatively MERE prophet can subject one to DEATH threats?

SO, if they are trying to get us to view things through their eyes, it is LOST in all the OTHER garbage! I understand FULLY why they are doing it. They haven't surprised me in DECADES! I actually expected something like 911 as late as a few weeks before it! At the time I expected it because the deaths, on BOTH sides, were increasing between the israelis and the palestinians, at least *I* saw more such reports, not that I was looking. Since THAT was a losing battle, the next step would be to go against the enemy's biggest ally, ****US****!

BTW it IS a nice webpage, but the text goes too far to the left so the statue of liberty makes it hard to read.

Steve

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Patrician

14 years ago

Yeh Steve - well now this is religious so ICSM but won't.

It has been going on for centuries now - same story different day.

Suffice it to say that whatever the terrorist's conscious motives, the universe gave me the message that this is what it is like when your country is under attack. It is not something to cheer about to say the least when we are at war in another country and innocent people are being mutilated.

'All men are brothers'
'Forgive them, they know not what they do'
'Do not resist evil' (suffer gladly)

We will have the victory in a far greater sense than anyone who doesn't believe can imagine.

Happy Rosh Hashana.

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seasoned 14 years ago

Pat,

Well, NOBODY wants to see the innocent get hurt but, sadly, that almost ALWAYS happens in WAR! There WERE innocent Germans, even innocent members of the NAZI party. There WERE innocent Japanese. Few really worried THEN.

AND, I still remember pearl harbor EVEN though it happened before I was born and in an area I never was. Just THAT would make me feel bad. And the japanese and the NAZIs WERE moving all about and likely WOULD have taken over a lot of areas if the war wasn't fought. But I, for one, didn't need "the lesson". I felt on 9/11 the same way I did about the memory of Pearl Harbor.

BTW I'm not jewish but, if you are, Happy Rosh Ha Shana to you TOO! My last German Teacher, who was Jewish, by the way, said that is the correct way to say it. Since HA is usually hebrew for "the", I guess that makes sense.

Steve
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Patrician

14 years ago

I am always sorry I get my foot into it and it becomes both political and religious. I would delete my posts right now but I am quoted in others posts.

My only point was it was horrible having war happen on our own soil for the first time (in my lifetime) and I could visualize what it is like for people living in countries that are at war particularly with coward terrorist demons.

RIP Victims of 911 and all wars everywhere.

... and I am sorry...

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Doug

14 years ago

Hi Patricia,

Friends, you and I, absolutely!

Like I said above I understood your first post, I wasn't offended...and I too was comparing our actions in Desert Storm compared to the terrorists of 9-11.

My point was merely there is no comparison, and I like how you articulated your feelings in the quote below:

My only point was it was horrible having war happen on our own soil for the first time (in my lifetime) and I could visualize what it is like for people living in countries that are at war particularly with coward terrorist demons.

Doug

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seasoned 14 years ago

Pat,

You have NOTHING to be sorry about. If I were president, and they acted like a SANE person acts, I would have stopped it the moment I got in office. The way they are acting, I would be almost AFRAID to stop it.

I will tell you I wish it never started, I wish nobody EVER bought ANY resources from them. Who would have thought that one day we would by CRUD from them, and pay a FORTUNE for it!?!?!? And THEN, after buying the CRUD, THEY would use money WE paid them to fight us and claim we aren't spending enough?

And YES, I KNOW how to spell crudE, but it really IS CRUD! BTW freedictionary says:

crud (krd)
n.
1. Slang
a. A coating or an incrustation of filth or refuse.
b. Something loathsome, despicable, or worthless.
c. One who is contemptible or disgusting.

I disagree that it is slang and, technically, THEY do also, since this is the FIRST meaning listed. And crude IS crud. It simply contains a lot of oil and gas mixed with other things like tar, etc... and can be refined to separate the stuff we can use from the stuff ANYONE now considers CRUD!

This isn't about OIL. That is simply how they got most of their money and seed capital, and how they can strangle economies. It is NOT about religion. That is simply how they relate to those they try to use. It is about their selfish, greedy, and emotional desire for control, primarily to get us to follow THEIR way. Which they mostly put into the realm of islam. But who knows how much of that is REALLY in the Koran.

The torah says a lot of things that almost NOBODY follows today(Like sabbatical years, slavery, stopping ALL work on the sabbath, etc... ). And the Mishna says a lot of things that aren't in the torah(Like rabbinic certification, meat and dairy, etc... ). Heck Christian denominations often have similar differences. One denomination even FORBIDS instruments in worship! Another celebrates on friday or saturday, as opposed to sunday. Catholicism is run much like judaism in that they have past laws handed down from previous popes and treated almost like precedent is in American courts. There is also a Pope that acts much like the rabinnic board. Obviously there are similar things in islam. HECK, they may even use our capitulation to convince their cohorts that Allah is on their side.

The fact is though that if we ignored them from the beginning, they would likely not know about oil, still be wandering the desert, and not even know about us, much less want to do us ill will. Of course, bringing israel into the picture would STILL be a problem. 8-(

BTW pat, in a case like yours, if I felt it were offensive, or you asked me not to, I would just not quote you. Sorry. 8-(

Steve
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seasoned

14 years ago

Patrician,

I have always been a pacifist. Do you know how HARD it is for a little boy to be a pacifist? It is NOT easy! Heck, in highschool one guy had the audacity to say, to a scholl official, that he was bullying me to "teach me" to fight back! Alas, I think I just looked at the official, grinned, and shook my head. I took it the whole year. Like I said, I didn't believe in that. Even today, I am all too passive.

The guy IS lucky that schools don't ever care about bullying even in a school with military weapons, a local marine base with people some have befriended, and having students that are relatively defenseless for 8hours a night.

Being a pacifist doesn't mean you have a yellow stripe!

ICSM, I was GOING to say more, but I will spare you.

Steve

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Dave Patterson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Patrician,

I have always been a pacifist. Do you know how HARD it is for a little boy to be a pacifist? It is NOT easy! Heck, in highschool one guy had the audacity to say, to a scholl official, that he was bullying me to "teach me" to fight back! Alas, I think I just looked at the official, grinned, and shook my head. I took it the whole year. Like I said, I didn't believe in that. Even today, I am all too passive.

The guy IS lucky that schools don't ever care about bullying even in a school with military weapons, a local marine base with people some have befriended, and having students that are relatively defenseless for 8hours a night.

Being a pacifist doesn't mean you have a yellow stripe!

ICSM, I was GOING to say more, but I will spare you.

Steve

I've always had better luck fighting with my head rather than my fists...

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Patterson

I've always had better luck fighting with my head rather than my fists...

WIsh I did. I probably should have tried to appear obviously stronger, etc... and ACTED aggressive, but somehow people seem to realize I am not aggressive anyway. Kind of dumb if you think about it. I mean some dogs act submissive but one wrong move and....

Just this afternoon I watched "everybody's fine", and one thing started a memory, of something that happened in a military boarding school I went to. Some kids came into the woodshop. The teacher should have thrown the kids out, they were NOT allowed there. And the kids pushed me. They PUSHED ME! WHY was that so bad? HOW does that tie to "everybody's fine"?

Well, they pushed me INTO A RUNNING DISK SANDER! I could have been painfully scarred FOR LIFE! I did the ONLY thing I could! I pushed away. Had I used my hands, I would have slipped, damaged my hands, and probably ended up with the SAME scarring. SO, I took the corner of the jewelry box I was finishing up for my mother(I had nothing better to do), and pushed IT into the sander. That SAVED me!

When the others left, I evened out the damage and made the other three sides the same. She left that jewelry box at my home from the last time she was there, and it still has the beveled edges. They WOULD have been NICE and looked intentional if not for the fact that it was PLYWOOD and some of the bevels show the brads I used to join it.

BTW one of those persons was the guy that said he was "trying to teach me to fight back". Had I been hurt, I probably would have killed him. How would YOU react if you got pushed into a sander, ON PURPOSE, had bloody hands, the skin on your cheek ripped off, a damaged nose, and probably lost the site in one eye? I was wearing safety goggles, but they are NOT made to protect the eyes of a person being pushed into a sander. He shouldn't have gotten away with that.

You really HAVE to wonder. Maybe they just want to start a fight with someone they feel comfortable with doing so, so they will feel like they are big. WHO KNOWS!

Still, if someone attacks me physically NOW, they might get a surprise. But I am not going to start the fight. And I can certainly claim a valid reason because of the warfarin I take. I would probably have to hit them nine times as hard over 9 times the area to give them the same bruise I would get.

Steve
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KenThompson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Being a pacifist doesn't mean you have a yellow stripe!

Steve

Sgt. York.

I tend to think that it is human nature, in general, to have war. But
don't assume anything about how I feel about all the madness in
the world. Just reading the posts made me think about it, and that's
what I think - it's natural for countries and societies to go to war
agin one another.

Of course probably be lots more people here today if there was no
religion, too. What a bugger salvation is. Ha...

Ken

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Sgt. York.

I tend to think that it is human nature, in general, to have war. But
don't assume anything about how I feel about all the madness in
the world. Just reading the posts made me think about it, and that's
what I think - it's natural for countries and societies to go to war
agin one another.

Of course probably be lots more people here today if there was no
religion, too. What a bugger salvation is. Ha...

Ken

Actually, Catholicism frowns AGAINST all forms of contraception! They, and most christians, ALSO frown against all abortions. The old testament contains pointers that lead to the REVERSE rythm method, which increases birth rates. islam and some other religions say the woman should submit, etc....

GRANTED they also say you shouldn't go to prostitutes or have more than one wife, but that like;y wouldn't result in many kids either.

All that INCREASES the birth rate, for religion. What is YOUR reasoning?

Steve

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KenThompson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Actually, Catholicism frowns AGAINST all forms of contraception! They, and most christians, ALSO frown against all abortions. The old testament contains pointers that lead to the REVERSE rythm method, which increases birth rates. islam and some other religions say the woman should submit, etc....

GRANTED they also say you shouldn't go to prostitutes or have more than one wife, but that like;y wouldn't result in many kids either.

All that INCREASES the birth rate, for religion. What is YOUR reasoning?

Steve

My reasoning on which particular point, Steve?

If you wish to discuss religion, then it will need to be in private - as you well
know. Even though those who know better can't help but always go there.

Ken

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

My reasoning on which particular point, Steve?

If you wish to discuss religion, then it will need to be in private - as you well
know. Even though those who know better can't help but always go there.

Ken

Well, you implied religion reduces birthrate. They all have things to increase it. Islam probably does also, but I won't say it does, etc.. because I don't know enough about THAT.

Steve

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KenThompson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, you implied religion reduces birthrate. They all have things to increase it. Islam probably does also, but I won't say it does, etc.. because I don't know enough about THAT.

Steve

My implication was religion has caused the deaths of lots
of people throughout history. Or, perhaps more accurately,
it wasn't religion that caused it but rather the people.

Doesn't matter. Dead is dead, eh?

I wondered why you said all those things. lol.

Ken

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

My implication was religion has caused the deaths of lots
of people throughout history. Or, perhaps more accurately,
it wasn't religion that caused it but rather the people.

Doesn't matter. Dead is dead, eh?

I wondered why you said all those things. lol.

Ken

OK, well, it doesn't look like that has done that much in recent years, outside of wars that would probably have been fought anyway.

Countries are generally created through wars. If people were all nice, respectful, etc.., There would be NO royalty, probably no countries, no military, no major weapons, and nobody would have to fear such overwhelming force. That would be nice, but even the most primitive animals aren't that nice. Humans like to think they are SO advanced. Outside of communicating complicated thoughts, being able to create and use various tools, and having the intelligence to do things with it, humans really aren't that special. Unfortunately, some make that ABUNDANTLY clear.

Steve

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KenThompson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Outside of communicating complicated thoughts,

Steve

Don't talk to me about thunking complikated thoughts...

I'm at the univ of delaware right now cuz I have a lil pc problem. Should
be all fixed tomorrow. But have some things that need to be done, and I
need to use video.

Anyway... I heard a commercial on the radio this morning, and it was about
some camera... maybe a video camera. And one of the benefits mentioned
was that it used "Homeland security technology."

I thought, "Huh? Whaaaa?" LOL

Homeland security technology. I don't think I'm interested.

Gotta work. See ya later.

Ken

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Don't talk to me about thunking complikated thoughts...

I'm at the univ of delaware right now cuz I have a lil pc problem. Should
be all fixed tomorrow. But have some things that need to be done, and I
need to use video.

Anyway... I heard a commercial on the radio this morning, and it was about
some camera... maybe a video camera. And one of the benefits mentioned
was that it used "Homeland security technology."

I thought, "Huh? Whaaaa?" LOL

Homeland security technology. I don't think I'm interested.

Gotta work. See ya later.

Ken

YEAH, I KNOW you are kidding BUT, in my defense, I said COMMUNICATING! Animals CAN communicate, but I doubt they can say The main board is green, and the sound card is the board plugged in the 2nd slot from the right. But I am sure they can observe things that a person might communicate in that fashion.

Chimps CAN say there is a threat on the ground, head for the trees. I don't know if anyone knows if they can say what the threat is.

steve

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KenThompson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Animals CAN communicate, but I doubt they can say The main board is green, and the sound card is the board plugged in the 2nd slot from the right. But I am sure they can observe things that a person might communicate in that fashion.

Well, holio, maybe you're just not listening close enuf...

Chimps CAN say there is a threat on the ground, head for the trees. I don't know if anyone knows if they can say what the threat is.

steve

Ya think? LOL

Ken

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seasoned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Well, holio, maybe you're just not listening close enuf...

Ya think? LOL

Ken

Supposedly they HAVE examined things! If an animal comes by, a chimp starts acting weird and screaming, and all the other chimps start climbing trees, it isn't hard to figure out what is happening.

But who are WE to say what they can say.

Steve
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TimPhelan

14 years ago

Personally, I think it's unnatural. Just my opinion of course.

Originally Posted by KenThompson

... it's natural for countries and societies to go to war
agin one another.

Ken

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Kay King

14 years ago

Sometimes I'm not sure which has hurt us the most - the actual attack of nine years ago or what has happened in this country since then.

So much of the overspending and the intolerance we are seeing can be traced back to 9/11. We've given up freedoms, made decisions out of fear, and I think these may have diminished our society rather than made it better and stronger.

kay

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Sometimes I'm not sure which has hurt us the most - the actual attack of nine years ago or what has happened in this country since then.

So much of the overspending and the intolerance we are seeing can be traced back to 9/11. We've given up freedoms, made decisions out of fear, and I think these may have diminished our society rather than made it better and stronger.

kay

I agree with you in part. HECK, I may be affected directly more than anyone else here! All this scanning nonsense is crazy. It may have cost americans *****DIRECTLY*****(meaning stolen or lost credit cards, money, valuables, etc) many THOUSANDS! INDIRECTLY (taxes), you know it cost well into the MILLIONS.

As for intolerance? Part of the problem is there is TOO MUCH tolerance. If a menonite woman goes through I bet she has to remove her bonnet. Why are muslim women given so much more freedom and allowed to keep such things on? Germans, Japanese, Chinese, etc... in the US, even ones BORN here, were treated like ENEMIES. Germans could be thrown in jail, and asians were sometimes put in camps. Why shouldn't they be sure to search, or at least scrutinize the scans of, muslims? It is FAR better than the germans and asians were treated here during WWII.

So how am *I* treated at logan airport in Boston?

About 1970 to now...
1. I have to put all my bags through the XRAY machine
2. I have to walk through a metal detector

SINCE 9/11

1. The laptop has to be run through the xray separately
2. A bag containing all liquids in bottles that are no more than 3oz must be run separately.
3. The belt, shoes, EVEN my medicalert band, must be REMOVED and put through the xray.
4. EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING, even a tiny piece of paper, money, credit cards, etc... must be removed from your pockets and placed in the xray scanner!
5. You have to go through a metal detector and/or a scanner.
6. If you go through the scanner you are FORIDDEN to look at your stuff, and are delayed an incredible amount of time.
7. When you get back out you have to do everything in reverse and HOPE all is fine. You may NEVER know until weeks later.

So they require me to do ALL this, and a muslim is allowed to keep so much on, etc? INCREDIBLE!

If I were to have a heart attack, faint, etc... they MIGHT do an angiogram on me. Normally that is just a major inconvenience. For ME, it would KILL me! Of course, outside of delaying efforts by giving me an xray, MRI, or CT, or reading the band, which I am REQUIRED to take off, how would they know?

steve

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Patrician

14 years ago

Salvation and Religion are diametrically opposed.

So are people who say stupid things and think themselves wise.

Because things might be natural does not automatically make them ok , in fact as things come to light, the more they are shown to be exactly wrong.

We need to transcend our base instincts - It's called evolving -

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Patrician

14 years ago

Nah, that's cool.

No offense.

I could say so much, even the dummy that i am - but just suffice it to say the crux of the problem with this forbidden subject is that people don't want to believe lies (religion) - logical enough - but then they 'throw the baby out with the bath water' (which is a bad mistake).

It's a mystery even to believers.

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Your powers of deduction are truly unimpressive.

But I agree with you about people saying stupid things and thinking they're
enlightened.

But as you well know, Patrician, we cannot get into a pissing contest in
the open forum. So you are invited to PM me if you wish. I doubt you will,
but the invitation is always open...

Ken

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KenThompson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Patrician

Nah, that's cool.

No offense.

I could say so much even the dummy that i am - but just suffice it to say the crux of the problem with this forbidden subject is that people don't want to believe lies (religion) - logical enough - but then they 'throw the baby out with the bath water' (which is a bad mistake).

It's a mystery even to believers.

I wasn't offended. And you're not a dummy, either.

Ken

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Ron Kerr

14 years ago

I just watched something called 9/11: After the Towers Fell and found it to be very moving.

It never ceases to amaze me how the good in most people comes out after adisasters like this.

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Tomorrow's Anniversary

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How do I effectively build and nurture an email list for affiliate marketing purposes?

Are Solo ADs the Most Cost Effective Way to Promote your Product?

Are billboards still effective in driving customers?

Been a while! Any of you Old Timers here?

How much does the rebranding affect CR ?