Does Lying Make You More Money?

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I understand that I am opening myself up to a lot of potential criticism from the IM community by suggesting what I am about to suggest.

But I do it as an "IMer" who wants to be honest and "take care" of my own customers. I want to practice what I believe about putting the customer first.

Haven't we all been repeatedly giving lip service, at least, to "It's not about you (the IMer), it's about the customer and what he/she wants."

Okay, here's my rant:

1. Why does every big launch IM product cost $1997?

2. How can a product with a "real value" of $38,650 be sold for $297?

3. How come all the "short window" launches are reopened or extended because the guru's server crashed (again) from all the massive unexpected traffic? Didn't he learn how to take precautions the first time that happened?

4. Why do I need to know that I'm not going to pay $10,000, or even half that much, no not even $2,000, or $1,000, not $700, not $397, not even $197, not even a ridiculous $97, but if I order in the next ten minutes I only have to pay $47!

5. Why do IMers get to send me multiple emails on the same day promoting their offers simply because their email service messed up again and they're not sure if the list I'm on ever received the first email?

6. How could there only be 7 copies left of any digital product?

7. How can an IMer send me promotions for nearly every offer that comes along and still claim that he only wants to tell me about "the good stuff that he uses."

8. If a product owner is willing to pay affiliates 50% or more for a buyer from the affiliates list, why should I (the consumer) not feel like I'm paying at least twice what the product is actually worth to the owner?

9. How many IMers actually read or immerse themselves in a product prior to promoting all kinds of wonderful things about it? Let's be honest now . . . 20% ? . . . 10% ? . . . 2% ? . . . Why is that?

10. Why does an income screen shot of a merchant or Clickbank account really matter:
a) when they are easily doctored or faked altogether?
b) when the small print income disclaimer at the bottom of the page says that the income described in the sales letter is not typical and that YOU may not experience any income at all?
c) when it's the product owner's account rather than that of a product user - someone like you or me that's purchasing the product?

11. Why should I care about being on the first page of Google? (I only want to be ranked for relevant search terms that will bring me traffic that will convert to sales!)

12. Why are guarantees only for the cost of the product? If you guarantee a six figure income, why isn't that the amount you should pay me?

13. Why do you say "this is the most important email you will ever read" over and over again?

14. I recently copied and pasted a guru's one- page sales letter into WORD and it ended up being 37 pages long . . . how could that be?

15. When I close a screen it means I want to go somewhere else. Why do I have to be interrupted by another pitch, then another, then another, then another when I've already decided I don't want your product?

16. When you claimed your product generated $350,000 last month alone, shouldn't you also disclose that you and your staff burned through $335,000 in operating and marketing costs to get there?

17. Is there anything wrong with seeing a picture of you sitting in a rented Lamborghini in front of a friend's mansion?

18. If I initiate contact with local businesses about purchasing a web site I designed, contracting for my SEO services, buying a domain name I've already registered, or simply listing your business in my directory, how is that not considered unsolicited commercial email (UCE), or as we have come to affectionately call it . . . SPAM?

19. Why didn't you tell me that your PLR or MRR product would be selling for $1 on eBay shortly after it was released to the public?

20. Why do I have to give your company my name and email address for every single new video or offer that you release? Can't you keep track of what I've already given you?

I could go on and on some more, but I will stop there.

Yes, I understand some of the reasons, techniques and motivations of selling and marketing that lead IMers to employ these tactics and many, many others. And no, I don't claim to be an expert in any of them.

What I am wondering, however, is whether using these strategies is really in the best interest of our beloved prospects and customers?

Or we do simply believe we need to use them because that's what we see other IMers doing so we figure that's what we must do as well to be successful?

Most of these strategies, when you get right down to it, contain elements of deception . . . or dare I say it . . . lying!

You might say to yourself, no I'm not really lying since I'm not intentionally trying to harm or hurt my prospects.

I just use these tactics to help my conversions because that's what I see all the experts doing and supposedly that's what works.

Please understand that I'm not singling out any person or accusing the entire IM community of underhanded and dishonest marketing methods.

My purpose in discussing whether or not we are doing a disservice to our prospects with these strategies is rooted in my desire to be up front and honest with my own customers and to not insult their intelligence with increasingly obvious tricks, games, and techniques that could lead them to the conclusion that I care more about my own sales than I do about what's really best for them, my customers.

In the early days of the Internet, consumers may have been oblivious to such tactics.

But to me at least, it seems apparent that today's Internet consumers are becoming more and more aware of, and tired of (no . . . actually fed up with) these and other deceptive marketing approaches.

So I'd like your feedback and thoughts about this topic.

Am I being too harsh about marketing practices? Is this really not as much of a concern as I'm making it out to be? In your mind, are these practices really not deceptive at all?

Do we in the IM community need to stretch the truth in our marketing?

Do you personally feel some or all of these tactics should not to be considered to be "dishonest" as they are simply tried and true methods of increasing sales without blatantly lying to prospects?

Let's hear what you have to say!
#lying #make #money
  • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
    Steve I can relate to what you're saying. It is unfortunate that lies - even if they are just little white lies - are so often told to make a sale. It is more unfortunate for those who don't tell lies will probably not make as many sales and be as successful.

    Although, having said that, a lot of these perhaps aren't 'lies' as such, you're example of 'why didn't you tell me your plr will be sold on Ebay for $1 shortly after it was released to the public'. Firstly, you can't control what everybody does will the plr that they buy and if someone else goes and sells it on Ebay - that's part of having PLR. Although that also depends on the rights of the PLR. Secondly, you can buy a book from Target for $20 and a week later they have it on sale for $10 - these things happen, that's all part of marketing and sales. But it isn't lying.

    How could there only be 7 copies left of any digital product? - Although some marketers do lie about the number of copies they are selling, not all are lies. Myself and a lot of other honest marketers that I know, do have a limit on our products and do actually close the product sales once that limit is reached.

    I've only picked out a couple and many of the others I can definitely see your point.

    Someone told me once that I am too honest to be successful in IM and perhaps they were right, perhaps that's why I'm not as successful as I'd like to be.

    There are still some honest people out there
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  • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
    Hey Steve

    Whatever your thoughts on these tactics, one thing I've learned over the years is that bland marketing produces bland results.

    So whatever you choose to do, it really does need some sort of zing. It's up to you what form that zing takes.

    Cheers,

    Neil
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Lying in business may make you short term cash, but NEVER long term.... unless, of course, playing poker for a living is your business.
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    Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    .. depends on what you lie about and whether or not you can still operate after the truth comes out.

    Bill Gates lied about creating DOS; (he stole the code from a partner). Apple lied about creating the first GUI based computer; (it was really Xerox).

    The media lied about Al Gore creating the Internet, (lol)... it was actually the U.S. Military.

    The original ingredients of Coca-Cola allegedly contained actual cocaine deposits; they lied by omission of the truth.

    ... depends...
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    • Profile picture of the author OpticalOut
      Hah, just addressing a few of your questions. But really man...

      Here is how I look at it. If you're going to invest 30 minutes to an hour to writing a huge list of everything you passionately hate about certain IMers... why couldn't you have invested that time in your business to become better than all the short-coming you see?

      1. Why does every big launch IM product cost $1997?
      It's all about the perception of value. Eben Pagan's recent course was sold for about this much because he delivers.

      Here is the interesting part about the price...

      People who complain...
      • Want and think that they cannot live without the information
      • Are upset because they either don't have or are not willing to invest in the course.
      In reality, most of the concepts and information in these courses is spread out across the web and is free. But again....

      It's about what we perceive the value of the course to be. It's worth $2k because it's packaged in such a way that is going to make it the solution to your problems.

      2. How can a product with a "real value" of $38,650 be sold for $297?
      Again... Perceived value and cost. A good product should have a higher perceived value than what it is being sold for.

      They want you to think that you are taking advantage of them when you buy the product.

      3. How come all the "short window" launches are reopened or extended because the guru's server crashed (again) from all the massive unexpected traffic? Didn't he learn how to take precautions the first time that happened?
      I think that some newer guys actually had their server crash at first. Then they figured out that this created some type of urgency for their product.

      Perhaps people freaked out when they went to buy and couldn't.

      Plus to people who are on the fence, it looks like the product is super popular and there is your social proof that it is a good product.

      So it could be true that some of their servers crash, but then again... this is a bit dishonest to do.

      4. Why do I need to know that I'm not going to pay $10,000, or even half that much, no not even $2,000, or $1,000, not $700, not $397, not even $197, not even a ridiculous $97, but if I order in the next ten minutes I only have to pay $47!
      I can't remember who I saw doing this last.

      It's not really a lie, but more of a value thing again.

      A good way to catch someone's attention with an outrageous price that equals the value and then bring them down to something that is attainable.

      5. Why do IMers get to send me multiple emails on the same day promoting their offers simply because their email service messed up again and they're not sure if the list I'm on ever received the first email?
      Hah. Some list guys actually do mess up and forget to include a link.

      What you are talking about. I've seen a few guys doing that.

      If anything, I really didn't care if they "messed up". All I cared about is that I was getting flooded with emails on launch day from marketer X because he couldn't run his business properly - Filtered!

      6. How could there only be 7 copies left of any digital product?
      Well the guys that put these up and don't honor them are liars.

      Just like those old **** berry pages with the count down timers.

      It's now more of an old tactic to me. If I see this on a page, then it loses trust with me immediately.
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by tecHead View Post

      Bill Gates lied about creating DOS; (he stole the code from a partner)
      Actually they BOUGHT the code from a partner for $10,000.
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

        Actually they BOUGHT the code from a partner for $10,000.
        lol... only $10k?

        One can argue that it WAS a steal at that price.
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      • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
        Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

        Actually they BOUGHT the code from a partner for $10,000.
        I wondered about that, too. I remember reading, somewhere a long time ago, that
        he bought it for 50,000 from a guy he knew who owned the company that created
        DOS. The company was very small and having a hard time, financially.

        Gates and a few others made the deal with IBM before Gates even had the DOS
        program. As soon as they returned to the left coast, they hot-footed it up to that
        guy and dangled 50 G's and he accepted.


        Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
          Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

          I wondered about that, too. I remember reading, somewhere a long time ago, that
          he bought it for 50,000 from a guy he knew who owned the company that created
          DOS. The company was very small and having a hard time, financially.

          Gates and a few others made the deal with IBM before Gates even had the DOS
          program. As soon as they returned to the left coast, they hot-footed it up to that
          guy and dangled 50 G's and he accepted.


          Ken
          You could be right about it being $50k rather than $10k. Everything else you said is true (from what I remember - I saw it on a documentary shown on Australia's ABC earlier this century).

          The thing is, the guy who sold it to MicroHard (:rolleyes, probably thought he was getting a good deal at the time. Perhaps he even thought he was ripping them off.

          If only he'd taken 10,000/50,000 shares in MSFT instead.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    Am I being too harsh about marketing practices?
    No

    And I'll go even further...

    Promises and claims of monetary results should be banned from signatures and wso ads. It's deceptive marketing at it's worst.
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  • Profile picture of the author pianochris
    Some good points Steve but it only happens to those who can't see them. For me I prefer my reputation more than anything else. People buy people and a reputation can make sure you have future customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author jimmeettee
    Have you been reading my mind? I have felt most of what you wrote, it's just good old common sense, and yet time after time we see launches done in exactly the same way. I suppose it's a matter of doing what all of the "gurus" do.

    I'm getting ready for my first product launch and am planning to avoid all of the nonsense you mentioned. I'll just say what it is and what it does, make a reasonable offer and see what happens.

    I let you know!

    Jim T.
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  • Profile picture of the author thatgirlJ
    Some of these things bug me as well, so I'm only going to address ones I disagree on...or at least have a point about...


    2. How can a product with a "real value" of $38,650 be sold for $297?

    The person might be demonstrating the average value his customers have received from the training. Or, maybe the information is being presented in a new way...bundled together for a lower price.

    There are some marketers who've sold $$$$ courses, only to give them away for free later. This generally bugs me, but it also doesn't mean the content is ONLY worth $0.

    Value is often subjective, prices change all the time.

    And often, people just pull prices out of their bum

    The product owners are comparing their price with what others charge, what they've charged in that past, and the results people have seen.



    4. Why do I need to know that I'm not going to pay $10,000, or even half that much, no not even $2,000, or $1,000, not $700, not $397, not even $197, not even a ridiculous $97, but if I order in the next ten minutes I only have to pay $47!

    Price comparison -- it's a good copywriting technique, when done the right way. I don't see this as lying. For instance, if a product is being launched to get early results and feedback, but will be a higher price later on.



    6. How could there only be 7 copies left of any digital product?

    Marketers often put limits on things if there is a service attached to it, or any element that will take up their time. Coaching, writing, customer support, etc.

    Perhaps they don't want to saturate the market with a technique, to protect themselves and their buyers.


    8. If a product owner is willing to pay affiliates 50% or more for a buyer from the affiliates list, why should I (the consumer) not feel like I'm paying at least twice what the product is actually worth to the owner?

    Why should you pay Amazon 50% more for a product than you could get from the manufacturer itself? Because they put time and effort into finding, stocking, writing about, and promoting the product. I know this doesn't directly compare, but an affiliate is a form of advertising. If they didn't have affiliates advertising for them, they wouldn't make as much money. It's not lying, it's just part of their business model. Buy, or not.


    11. Why should I care about being on the first page of Google? (I only want to be ranked for relevant search terms that will bring me traffic that will convert to sales!)

    Huh? You'd only try to get on the first page of Google for terms you want to rank for -- the ones that convert to sales You wouldn't try to rank for stuff you can't make money for...hopefully no one has tried to sell you on something otherwise.

    12. Why are guarantees only for the cost of the product? If you guarantee a six figure income, why isn't that the amount you should pay me?

    ...

    A joke, I hope?

    13. Why do you say "this is the most important email you will ever read" over and over again?

    Copywriters generally call out to a specific audience. If they or the product owner feels they have the perfect product for that audience, it just might be one of the most important emails they ever read.

    I do agree that it is sometimes over-used.

    14. I recently copied and pasted a guru's one- page sales letter into WORD and it ended up being 37 pages long . . . how could that be?

    Perhaps it converts best for him at that length.

    19. Why didn't you tell me that your PLR or MRR product would be selling for $1 on eBay shortly after it was released to the public?

    If a product has MRR on it, you will see all kinds of crazy things happen Note the rights, or contact the original writer/product owner, for clarification if you wanted products that will be more limited.


    What I am wondering, however, is whether using these strategies is really in the best interest of our beloved prospects and customers?

    Not always, but sometimes.

    If I have a product I am passionate about (and I ONLY put out products I am passionate about), I am going to use the best copywriting strategies I know...the ones that work for my market. Some of them you've mentioned in your rant

    There is NOTHING wrong with using marketing techniques to get customers. We are marketers, after all.

    There is a problem with taking things too far...but, who determines what "too far" is? You might hate long-form sales letters, but they are used for a reason.

    You can't please everyone -- but you can try to put out a DARN good product that you know your customers need and want.

    Or we do simply believe we need to use them because that's what we see other IMers doing so we figure that's what we must do as well to be successful?

    Of course there are trends in marketing -- there always will be. Hopefully most marketers are staying within their ethics and figuring out what will work best for them.


    I just use these tactics to help my conversions because that's what I see all the experts doing and supposedly that's what works.

    Please understand that I'm not singling out any person or accusing the entire IM community of underhanded and dishonest marketing methods.

    My purpose in discussing whether or not we are doing a disservice to our prospects with these strategies is rooted in my desire to be up front and honest with my own customers and to not insult their intelligence with increasingly obvious tricks, games, and techniques that could lead them to the conclusion that I care more about my own sales than I do about what's really best for them, my customers.


    I'm curious to know -- what does your ideal sales letter or marketing campaign look like?
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  • Profile picture of the author James Harrison
    In the wise words of Solomon: "Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow."

    Get-rich-schemes are called schemes for a reason.
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  • Profile picture of the author TelZilla
    I think that people are starting to get immune to most of them. Unfortunately, there will always be people who are affected by "hype" and will pull out their credit card in an instant just so they can be part of the next big thing.

    I particularly despise #'s 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 13, 15, and 20.

    #'s 8 and 16 are pretty funny and also sadly true.

    Of course, I am an internet marketer, so you may want to take what I say with a grain of salt. I could be "stretching the truth".

    BTW, great blog. I liked the 2 part series Are You Afraid of Internet Selling?
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  • Profile picture of the author LetsGoViral
    Yes it does. But mostly in the short term. Honesty will get you further, however online marketing is just that - marketing. You hype your product and use psychological tricks to stimulate the right brain centers of the potential client. Welcome to marketing! Also, not telling everything =/= lying.
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  • Profile picture of the author Defunct
    Because it works, especially on newbies and that's all that matters for some people.

    I'm a marketer, but i refuse to lie to get someone to pay me if i don't think i can deliver what I say.

    Anyone here been successful selling things online without a typical IM sales letter?

    Most of us don't even read them anymore, headline, some sub titles, price, buy, if it sucks, refund.

    When i first started out, i think i read my first sales letter multiple times before buying it, Google Cash i think it was.

    I'm not a fan of the hard sale, but if something is a great product or service you should definitely be doing your best to market it without lying.

    Some marketers flat out lie and there should be fines or something for that.

    Faking a clickbank cheque? We should be able to call people out on this legally.
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    • Profile picture of the author dayanthan
      It works for a lot of the gurus and also a coaching company. I was proof that it did when I kept falling for their schemes and scams. I like to believe though that in the long run they will get their comeuppance one way of another. Nowadays I steer clear of these people and will cultivate trust with someone before I invest money in their product. There are so many charlatans out there.
      Btw I have reached my century (raises bat to the crowd amidst cheers LOL). Going for a double hundred and more.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    1. Why does every big launch IM product cost $1997?

    Because the product owners want to hit million a dollar day.

    You don't make a million dollars by selling a $7 ebook.

    Why? Here's why:

    At $1997:
    1,000,000 / 7 = 500.7 (Million bucks)

    So at $1997 you only need about 500 sales to make a million bucks.

    At $7:
    1,000,000 / 7 = 142857 Sales

    At $7 however, you need 142,857 sales to make the same amount of money.

    I am willing to bet that it's always easy to find 500 people who are willing to give you $1997 than it is to find about 143,000 people who are willing to give you $7 each.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Wise
    That's absolutely right. It's the old "penny for the Guy" story. To make £1 you need 100 people to say yes. Ask "£1 for the Guy" and you only need one to say yes.

    Personally I don't bother with any big hype launches. I get all the info I need from a WSO or the War Room, usually for the price of a couple of beers or even free.


    NB "Guy" as in Guy Fawkes who tried to blow up the Houses of Parliament a few hundred years ago.
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  • Profile picture of the author HotDamnShortSales
    First off, I LOVE, I can sense your frustration and your writing was comical, yet real and sincere. Here is my feedback. I have been lurking around the net and IM world now for maybe 6 months or so, I created a spam yahoo address called myspammyemail2010 or something like that. I then proceeded to surf the net and sign up for every single possible "worlds greatest XXXXX product". I then would read and analyze the different techniques used. 2 things. a, their website design and pitch page. Kind of using a scale of my own from just a regular ole boring template site to a HOLY %^#! THIS SALES PAGE IS SOME NEXT LEVEL STUFF! (you know all the urgent calls to action, warning messages (lol), there are only 3 left, hand drawn arrows and scribbles, exit pop ups etc. I then would note how often they emailed me, daily? multiple times a day? every few days? once a week? etc. I started then thinking like a consumer and just unsubscribed from the ones that that didn't garner any reaction from me or sincere interest. I then would follow these gurus and watch them lead up to their launch, or their product, or seminar.

    oh, by the way, this was all in the real estate investing niche, which is my primary business.

    these guys are GOOD, and what I found is one common theme. Its REAL simple.

    They are targeting desperate newbies. The guy/girl who just lost their job or got fired, or the guy/girl who is sick of their corporate job and their cubicle and wants "a way out, or should I say a way in to real estate riches".

    Its that simple. WE, warriors, novices, amatuers even, are fully aware of these tactics and calls to actions and slick, cool, designs. They are NOT used to getting emails that are addressed directly to them personally. you know,

    "hey Chris, I was just thinking about you, and noticed you missed out on our webinar last night, well Chris, you are in luck......"

    wow, how cool! he really took the time to personally write me an email, even put my name in the subject line!!!!

    well these people (consumers) don't know what autoresponders are! they don't know how easy it is. So they buy in to it. I know this because years ago when I was looking for real estate investing education, I went through that, and ended up spending 10grand on my education. THE DIFFERENCE was, that I am cut out for the business, I had a mortgage industry background, I understand how stressful it is, I understand general terms and how real estate closing go, financing, etc. I just needed to learn some "ninja" stratagies and get a hold of the documents, letters, templates for marketing, etc that successful investors were using, So I could use it for my biz. And it worked, 4 years later we are still doing the EXACT thing we set out to accomplish.

    my POINT is that these people on the internet are up late, stressed out, looking for something, anything that they can latch on to and try. And guess what? they just aren't cut out to be in the internet marketing business. They may know how to check their email on yahoo or upload a youtube video, but they dont have the patience, time,commitment, work ethic to REALLY do this.

    Just like I have no business being in say the air traffic control business. I tell people this all the time. I can go to air traffic control school. study, learn it and be an air traffic controller, but guess what? I DONT WANT TO BE ONE! I suck at organization, I hate being confined to one work space, I have ADD, and I have no business being in that industry. Same for those getting into IM, they just have no business being in the industry, its difficult, you need patience, nerves of steel,thick skin, and much more.

    So, in closing, I dont think there is anything really wrong per say with the tactics, because if someone COMMITS to learning this biz, YOU CAN GET RICH! its not a pipe dream, it happens every day. But you have to stick with it, commit to it, and follow through. And people don't do that and they move on to the next thing ie, energy drinks,vitamins,MLM, etc. they are called habitual learners.

    We had a coaching program, it was 4,000 dollars. people lined up here in Chicago to take the class, but guess what? they all were horrible, I actually GAVE PEOPLE THEIR MONEY BACK because they had NO BUSINESS being in real estate. There is a reason they work in a strip mall at the hallmark shop, or at jiffy lube.

    so,its not the marketers fault, its just sales technique. With that said, Im finalizing my product launch, and yes, I will say that people paid me $4,000 for this product and information, but for you online it is only XXXX. I can do that because our RE business is booming, and If I want to blow out our product for 47 bucks, thats my perogative. Oh, I also have some NEW methods of marketing that will stand out from all the others.

    its catch 22, do you do what everyone else is doing because thats what people are used to seeing? or do you do something else, different in your tactics and sales pages to stand out??? tough call, but thats why they have split tests!

    my .02
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    • Profile picture of the author dayanthan
      Originally Posted by HotDamnShortSales View Post

      First off, I LOVE, I can sense your frustration and your writing was comical, yet real and sincere. Here is my feedback. I have been lurking around the net and IM world now for maybe 6 months or so, I created a spam yahoo address called myspammyemail2010 or something like that. I then proceeded to surf the net and sign up for every single possible "worlds greatest XXXXX product". I then would read and analyze the different techniques used. 2 things. a, their website design and pitch page. Kind of using a scale of my own from just a regular ole boring template site to a HOLY %^#! THIS SALES PAGE IS SOME NEXT LEVEL STUFF! (you know all the urgent calls to action, warning messages (lol), there are only 3 left, hand drawn arrows and scribbles, exit pop ups etc. I then would note how often they emailed me, daily? multiple times a day? every few days? once a week? etc. I started then thinking like a consumer and just unsubscribed from the ones that that didn't garner any reaction from me or sincere interest. I then would follow these gurus and watch them lead up to their launch, or their product, or seminar.

      oh, by the way, this was all in the real estate investing niche, which is my primary business.

      these guys are GOOD, and what I found is one common theme. Its REAL simple.

      They are targeting desperate newbies. The guy/girl who just lost their job or got fired, or the guy/girl who is sick of their corporate job and their cubicle and wants "a way out, or should I say a way in to real estate riches".

      Its that simple. WE, warriors, novices, amatuers even, are fully aware of these tactics and calls to actions and slick, cool, designs. They are NOT used to getting emails that are addressed directly to them personally. you know,

      "hey Chris, I was just thinking about you, and noticed you missed out on our webinar last night, well Chris, you are in luck......"

      wow, how cool! he really took the time to personally write me an email, even put my name in the subject line!!!!

      well these people (consumers) don't know what autoresponders are! they don't know how easy it is. So they buy in to it. I know this because years ago when I was looking for real estate investing education, I went through that, and ended up spending 10grand on my education. THE DIFFERENCE was, that I am cut out for the business, I had a mortgage industry background, I understand how stressful it is, I understand general terms and how real estate closing go, financing, etc. I just needed to learn some "ninja" stratagies and get a hold of the documents, letters, templates for marketing, etc that successful investors were using, So I could use it for my biz. And it worked, 4 years later we are still doing the EXACT thing we set out to accomplish.

      my POINT is that these people on the internet are up late, stressed out, looking for something, anything that they can latch on to and try. And guess what? they just aren't cut out to be in the internet marketing business. They may know how to check their email on yahoo or upload a youtube video, but they dont have the patience, time,commitment, work ethic to REALLY do this.

      Just like I have no business being in say the air traffic control business. I tell people this all the time. I can go to air traffic control school. study, learn it and be an air traffic controller, but guess what? I DONT WANT TO BE ONE! I suck at organization, I hate being confined to one work space, I have ADD, and I have no business being in that industry. Same for those getting into IM, they just have no business being in the industry, its difficult, you need patience, nerves of steel,thick skin, and much more.

      So, in closing, I dont think there is anything really wrong per say with the tactics, because if someone COMMITS to learning this biz, YOU CAN GET RICH! its not a pipe dream, it happens every day. But you have to stick with it, commit to it, and follow through. And people don't do that and they move on to the next thing ie, energy drinks,vitamins,MLM, etc. they are called habitual learners.

      We had a coaching program, it was 4,000 dollars. people lined up here in Chicago to take the class, but guess what? they all were horrible, I actually GAVE PEOPLE THEIR MONEY BACK because they had NO BUSINESS being in real estate. There is a reason they work in a strip mall at the hallmark shop, or at jiffy lube.

      so,its not the marketers fault, its just sales technique. With that said, Im finalizing my product launch, and yes, I will say that people paid me $4,000 for this product and information, but for you online it is only XXXX. I can do that because our RE business is booming, and If I want to blow out our product for 47 bucks, thats my perogative. Oh, I also have some NEW methods of marketing that will stand out from all the others.

      its catch 22, do you do what everyone else is doing because thats what people are used to seeing? or do you do something else, different in your tactics and sales pages to stand out??? tough call, but thats why they have split tests!

      my .02
      Interesting perspective.
      I am on the other side of the coin. I was the guy who paid $US4,500 for a supposed comprehensive coaching program from Utah and got far less than what I was promised. I learnt the hard way and wish I had my time over again. If I had known what I know now I would have avoided such companies like the plague. They are so good at the sales techniques and making the claims and pretending to talk your language and reassuring you that you'll get this, that and the other. However they are so poor at the delivery. I am trying to get my money back and I may not but I will keep doing what I can to expose them.
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      • Profile picture of the author HotDamnShortSales
        that sucks, sorry to hear. hope you get your money back. my other observation is ARE THESE GURUS MAKING MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MONEY FROM SELLING A PRODUCT, OR ARE THEY MAKING THEIR MONEY DOING WHAT THEY ARE SELLING. HELL NO! just like most of the "real estate gurus" they are marketers now NOT real estate investors day to day. SO, if you are going to buy coaching for anything in any niche, MAKE SURE THE PERSON YOU ARE BUYING FROM HAS TANGIBLE PROOF. in our business its easy to see the proof. Closing statements and huds, or a search online of closings or deeds or the MLS. In the internet world, good luck. so easy to fake earnings. that sucks. so the next best thing is to ask others who bought it if it really worked or if it was legit!

        Originally Posted by dayanthan View Post

        Interesting perspective.
        I am on the other side of the coin. I was the guy who paid ,500 for a supposed comprehensive coaching program from Utah and got far less than what I was promised. I learnt the hard way and wish I had my time over again. If I had known what I know now I would have avoided such companies like the plague. They are so good at the sales techniques and making the claims and pretending to talk your language and reassuring you that you'll get this, that and the other. However they are so poor at the delivery. I am trying to get my money back and I may not but I will keep doing what I can to expose them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Murphy
    Great points you bring up and I often wonder if the marketers that use these tactics actually split test sales letters like a cheesy hyped filled one versus a bland, hype-less version.

    I hate to say it but I'd bet the farm on which ad would out pull the other.

    I LOVE persuasion and emotional triggers and how different wording can affect human emotions. I do NOT plan to EVER use that stuff to play on the emotions of my customers.

    The big dudes that do huge volume in this biz test and tweak like madmen (and women) and they choose the word they do for a reason. Cold hard cash. Yep, it's sad that some can't get more creative but it teaches you and I and the rest of the gang what woks and what doesn't work and we get to decide how to word our offers because of it.

    Awesome post man.

    Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author pethanks
    It is not necessary that lying can make more money because it is far from the blessings of God.
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  • Profile picture of the author NerdBoySEO
    Simple - read all advertising or promotions on the basis that at best it is exageration, most likely it is lies and at worst is it plain criminal.
    And that is everything not just to do with IM.
    Just check out the 'promises' of large corporations - these days they don't even bother talking about quality or what something can do, they focus on promising imaginary things. Prime examples, cokes current campaign - "coke open happiness" - wonder if that is backed with a guarantee.

    hmmmm, time for a coke I think
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas Michal
    It converts...
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      1- Because at that price, there's a cool grand in it for the owner after affiliate payout/

      2- Unless quantifiable, these should be banned.

      3- Because it's another excuse to put the product in your face.

      4- FIIK

      5- See number 3

      6- 7 copies? Or 7 copies at that price? (you forgot to include the imminent price price that never happens)

      7- Because they want to get paid affiliate $$$

      8- You shouldn't. But affiliate % are factored into the pricing

      9- I'd say < 2%... but I do refuse to promote anything I don't use myself.

      10- Total useless crap they are. But they appeal to the greed factor of buyers

      11- Well, 1st page on Google for targeted search terms will make you money.

      12- LOL... agree 100%. That's why I never promise a figure.

      13- Because most marketers are clueless and unimaginative when it comes to writing copy.

      14- It icluded too many income screenshots?

      15- Because I don't know why you don't want it... so I'll offer you an alernative that you weren't aware of.

      16- It was actually $337,764 in costs.

      17- Only if you're a Ferrari fanatic!

      20- No I cannot. It may be a different list and different product I'm creating.


      The paradox here is that to be a top marketer, you have to employ the tactics that we so often decry.

      Whilst I agree with most of your rant, we must remember that the tactics you raise appeal to the exact target audience that the promoter is pitching it. Hence the use of the income claims and visuals.. building value and price drops.

      As someone posted above.. drab marketing gets you drab results. It is human behaviour to want the easiest solution... and sadly, that's why people fall for that crap.

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  • Profile picture of the author excuzemee
    is it lying? how far do you take it?

    what do you say when someone asks how was your day?

    the scary thing is, the more successful you are, the more truthful your campaigns are. you are commenting on the 90% of advertising that is just bad.

    there are those out there, that build thier lists based on relationships. i met a woman at a seminar and the speaker was talking about his database conversions. he had 25,000 people in it. he sent out a free offer and received a 30% opt-in from his list.

    the girl siitng beside me, had 90% conversions from her list... to purchase her products. granted she only had 250 people in it, but every web guy she talked to was asking her how she did it. she had a fanatic fan base.

    you decide who you want to deal with, and how to build your business. alot of what you wrote about is just getting into the mindset of the prospect and how they think. what you do from there, is your choice. i do know this: if you build a website and don't tell anyone, nobody visits.

    in the end though, it about whether or not you think what you are selling is actually going to help people.

    but then again how many people help themselves?
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  • Profile picture of the author FloridaKash
    It's not lying, it's marketing.
    Does McDonalds really "Love To See You Smile?
    Exactly what is "Zest Fully Clean"?
    Did everyone really "I Love What You Do For Me, Toyota"?
    Jerad at Subway claims if I eat 6" subs everyday I will lose weight. Never mind that means no condiments or cheese. Read the fine print.
    Really? "Have it your way" at Burger King. They always seems to screw up my order.

    I think you see where I am going here. Its all perception, that's the beauty of marketing.

    Once I called on a classified ad for a car. The ad said 'Runs Great". Glad I asked him about the transmission, because apparently it doesn't move.

    Life lesson, always read between the lines.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Ten
    even if it did, it is a horrible long term strategy.
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    There's a woman in the UK who makes hundreds of millions of dollars lying. I mean like pure fiction. Here's a profile on her:
    Rich big-time spreading lies
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    Project HERE.

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  • Profile picture of the author attorneydavid
    I know that being a lawyer lying makes $$$$. If you tell clients what they want to hear they'll sign with you so fast. Also makes for being less annoyed by people pestering you into telling them the rosy scenario that isn't going to happen.
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  • Profile picture of the author Martin2010
    in this day and age it's increasingly common that people are let's say exaggerating the truth to make money.

    I have just watch a video of a top IM guru going through a sales pitch and let's say he's cut his price down to over 5% of his original program which if he'd done this in the first place then he'd probably not earnt enough money to pay for his lavish lifestyle.

    The main reason they do this for me is that they are not getting the original response they thought they would and they are trying to squeeze even more money out of the program.

    You can't blame them for doing it as if i was in their position i'd do exactly the same thing but it really winds me up when they start the pitch because you know what's coming.

    This program should be $9997
    This eBook should be $497
    This program should be $3997
    (you notice everything always ends in 7)
    This seminar cost $10000 to attend
    This program i'm launching is $8997

    BUT, you for today only can walk away with all these fantastic offers for ONLY $97

    Bla bla bl00dy bla

    Come on let's get real, if they told us the whole truth i.e. i tried plugging this program but it's trash or this eBook will only make me more money but you won't earn a penny. How many of us would buy it?
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by Martin2010 View Post

      in this day and age it's increasingly common that people are let's say exaggerating the truth to make money. <snip>
      I once saw a film shot in the 1920's featuring a get-rich-quick snake-oil salesman type. I was struck how similar it was to shyster activity today.

      Forget the snake oil. Lizard oil is much better. Want a cup?

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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Different people will choose what is most important for them in
    their lives at that particular moment.

    I believe the reference frame of your question is skewed and based
    on what is important to you. But that is not a criticism, and we
    all do it. We speak from our own frames of reference that reflect
    what matters to us, the most.

    A person can get rich or poor tellng the truth or telling lies.

    It's understandable that the focus is on the smaller IM person,
    perhaps, but we all know very large corporations have amassed
    insane amounts of wealth and power over the years.

    Many of them, some of them, have done so with help of deception
    and outright lying about a number of things. Many of them have
    profited wildly by playing both sides of the fence in say... wars.

    Entire countries and governments have been founded on lies,
    convenient 'truths,' or highly advantageous perspectives reflecting
    only partial pictures.

    The only person you can control is you and your actions.

    While I would never condone lying or deception in any form or situation,
    I don't waste my time judging people who do it or lamenting over it.


    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Rick B
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

      While I would never condone lying or deception in any form or situation, I don't waste my time judging people who do it or lamenting over it.
      Ken
      I agree that it's senseless to lament over liars but I also don't think that judging them is a waste of time. When the lie is outright and intended to benefit the liar at the expense of someone else I think it's imperative to point that person out for what they are.

      The reason that we see this type of behavior so much today is because people commonly just ignore it so the offender pays no price. The lying benefits them with no negative effects so they simply continue their selfish ways.

      So I'll never lament over them. But I will do anything in my power to ensure that someone who has overtly lied to me pays a price for it.
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        It's a marketing paradox...

        In order to succeed, you need to use the same methods you decry.

        As long as people want to believe that there is a simple solution... you'll get hyped up marketing.

        Always was... always will be.

        People buy because of what they believe a product will do for them.

        So if you tell them that it will achieve their goal, they'll buy it.
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    Of course, doctors have to lie all the time if they want to keep patients. Many times, they will give you a diagnosis of your illness when in reality they do not have a clue what is going on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Don Schenk
    Steve, I have a Salt Lake City example.

    A couple months ago I was in town and needed to purchase 4 new, flat-screen televisions for some condos I own in Kimball Junction. So I made a quick trip down the hill to Sam's Club in downtown SLC and bought the TVs.

    The next day, while installing them, I realised I needed a couple new DVD players too. So, back to Sam's. While I was in the TV department I saw they had raised the price of the same units I had purchased the previous day by $50 or $100. I don't remember which.

    In conversation with an employee, I commented about the bargain I got, and wondered why the price had gone up so much since the previous day. She informed me the manager at Sam's resets all the prices every morning on products throughout the store. The price is based upon the amount of stock of any particular item in that store. Another Sam's across town might have a different price that day for that same item.

    Some day's you get the sale price, some days you don't.

    It's like that in the offline world too.

    :-Don
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  • Profile picture of the author Shay .N.
    Howdy,

    Lying is not a good business practice in the long run.
    I never had "customers" (At-least not online), since I am not teaching things I do ATM, but it's no secret that many of the IM products are marketed with practices such as fake statistics and other shady marketing practices. ("We are closing in 2 days"... In the name of "urgency").

    If you are in for the long-term... It will not be worth it. It's just a quick fix.

    I'm new here BTW.. Finally registered after coming here from time to time =).
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  • Profile picture of the author gittar1122
    Lying is common in order to increase the Sales by different Sales people. It is not good morally as if the product is not good then you will not be going to believe any IMer in future.

    Marketing is all about making profitable relations with customers and it only happens in Sales where you have to sell out the product by any way. Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    I understand what you mean, but many online marketers are economical with the truth, as long as it brings a sale, they only have their conscience to soothe
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