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13 years ago

Hey Ken...

At the time I rooted for Ali...But over time, I've become a Joe Frazier fan.

One of the things that swayed me was when Ali lit the Olympic torch. Smokin Joe made a great point that Ali threw his 1960 gold medal into the Ohio River, but Joe always kept and respected his own 1964 gold medal. Why didn't Joe get to light the torch? He never disrespected the Olympics.

I think in a lot of ways Joe got the short end of the stick when compared to Ali in historical terms. After watching the 3 fights, I don't think anyone can argue that Joe wasn't Ali's equal as a fighter...

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TLTheLiberator

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Hey Ken...

At the time I rooted for Ali...But over time, I've become a Joe Frazier fan.

One of the things that swayed me was when Ali lit the Olympic torch. Smokin Joe made a great point that Ali threw his 1960 gold medal into the Ohio River, but Joe always kept and respected his own 1964 gold medal. Why didn't Joe get to light the torch? He never disrespected the Olympics.

I think in a lot of ways Joe got the short end of the stick when compared to Ali in historical terms. After watching the 3 fights, I don't think anyone can argue that Joe wasn't Ali's equal as a fighter...

I will.

Ali at his best - (just before his title was taken) would have beaten the living daylights out of Frazier - at his best - ( the first Ali fight ).

Since he had the 3 year layoff he was forced to not be as mobile as he would have liked in the fight of the century.

Ali vs. Frazier at their best would have IMHO, been a lot like Lenard/Duran 2 where Sugar Ray changed styles from their first encounter and proceeded to make a monkey out of Duran.

I'm sure in all 3 fights that Ali hit Frazier at least 4 times more than vice versa.

Frazier was a great fighter but just not in the same league as Ali.

He was a great brawler, with a fantastic left hook who was more than willing to take a punch in order to deliver one - a fatal mistake when he met George Forman.

I have great respect for Smok'n Joe.

TL

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Kurt

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I will.

Ali at his best - (just before his title was taken) would have beaten the living daylights out of Frazier - at his best - ( the first Ali fight ).

Since he had the 3 year layoff he was forced to not be as mobile as he would have liked in the fight of the century.

Ali vs. Frazier at their best would have IMHO, been a lot like Lenard/Duran 2 where Sugar Ray changed styles from their first encounter and proceeded to make a monkey out of Duran.

I'm sure in all 3 fights that Ali hit Frazier at least 4 times more than vice versa.

Frazier was a great fighter but just not in the same league as Ali.

He was a great brawler, with a fantastic left hook who was more than willing to take a punch in order to deliver one - a fatal mistake when he met George Forman.

I have great respect for Smok'n Joe.

TL

I tend to agree, however it's conjecture on our part as to what would have happened...Just like it's conjecture that I feel Liston threw the second Ali-Liston fight.

After watching the 3 fights with Frazier en masse, they were a "draw" IMO and in the only fights we have to judge, Frazier was every bit in Ali's league.

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Roaddog

13 years ago

Thanks for that Kurt.

I watched that fight when I was a wee lad in Philadelphia...you can imagine who that school was going for.

I agree Joe was a great fighter...one of the best left hooks in the business, tough as a bull.

But not only was Ali a great fighter...fast, great stamina etc...

he managed to overshadow more than just Smokin Joe.

He overshadowed an era with an abundance of heavyweight talent.

All the way into when Larry Holmes was champ...himself an under appreciated fighter.

Because not only was Ali good in the ring...he was a great marketer of himself.

I really do miss the "sparring" between him and Howard Cosell...miss the Wide World of Sports theme...

See what you did Kurt...*sniff* ...got me all misty... for a very interesting era

Jim

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Kurt

13 years ago

Hey Jim...

IMO, Larry Holmes was the most underrated heavyweight champ of all time.

And I agree Ali was a great self-promoter, the best in sports history.

But let's separate the sizzle from the substance:

Joe Frazier proved he was Ali's equal in their 3 fights.

Ali lost to Leon Spinks.

One could make a case that Ali lost all three fights to Ken Norton. Although Ali did win 2 of the fights, I've often wondered what effect Don King may have had on the judges.

When Ali fought Ron Lyle, which was the next fight after the Ali-Foreman fight, Ali tried the rope-a-dope again. Lyle didn't bite and it may have been the most boring heavyweight fight of all time. But Lyle was winning every round until the 11th(?), when Ali hit Lyle with something like 17 consecutive punches. Lyle was hurt, but he wasn't cut and never went down. The ref stopped the fight, with Lyle having won every round before.

I'm not saying Ali wasn't a great fighter, as he was. But he also had some fights that really could have gone the other way...Especially the two Norton fights which Ali "won". I'm not so sure he did win those fights. At the very least, Norton also proved he was Ali's equal.

But it was a great era for boxing's heavyweights...It was really the Golden Era. Not only were there 3 great "champs" in Ali, Frazier and Foreman, you had contenders like Norton, Jimmy Ellis, Ron Lyle and Jerry Quarry.

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Roaddog

13 years ago

IMO, Larry Holmes was the most underrated heavyweight champ of all time.

Like the saying goes a W is W.
I agree with that 100%, he was a master boxer...he got pretty bitter towards the end of his career about being underrated, which was unfortunate.
Many people forget that he fell one short of Rocky Marciano's record of 49-0

When Ali fought Ron Lyle, which was the next fight after the Ali-Foreman fight, Ali tried the rope-a-dope again. Lyle didn't bite and it may have been the most boring heavyweight fight of all time. But Lyle was winning every round until the 11th(?), when Ali hit Lyle with something like 17 consecutive punches. Lyle was hurt, but he wasn't cut and never went down. The ref stopped the fight, with Lyle having won every round before.

I remember that fight..if I remember right he (Lyle) had an interview a few day's before the fight with Cossell and basically said they had trained for that tactic. I don't think Ron Lyle was ever the same after that decision.

He was a good fighter although I wouldn't go so far as to say he was underrated.

You could fill a night's entertainment with short highlights of that era and then some.

Jim

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LastWarrior

13 years ago

I was too young to enjoy the fight live, I believe, but I think my father was watching it live on tv at the time of the fight. Post sure brings back memories of my dad because he loved Ali. He once took me to the hills in California somewhere where Foreman was training. Wasn't much fun because we were in the nose-bleen section at some building watching him workout.

There was another recent DVD of Ali that came out. Y'all should check it out. There are several Ali videos out, but even this last one showed things I never knew or saw before.

In my knowings of these past boxers, Fraser gave money to Ali in his hard times to get by. I always felt bad that Fraser wasn't the quick-witted silver tongue Ali was, but Fraser spoke best with his gloves.

LastWarrior

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adeleadams

13 years ago

@ KURT what a marvelous match indeed. I wish i would have seen that match alive

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TLTheLiberator

13 years ago

OK, perhaps the first fight had the slight edge going to Frazier due to the knockdown.

But fights 2 & 3 were IMHO, clear victories by Ali.

I thought fights 2 & 3 were target practice for Ali, but Smok'n Joe simply would not fall.

I sure wish we had HBO's punchstats back in the day as I'm sure it would make my case.

All The Best!!

TL

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Kurt

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

OK, perhaps the first fight had the slight edge going to Frazier due to the knockdown.

But fights 2 & 3 were IMHO, clear victories by Ali.

I thought fights 2 & 3 were target practice for Ali, but Smok'n Joe simply would not fall.

I sure wish we had HBO's punchstats back in the day as I'm sure it would make my case.

All The Best!!

TL

In the Thrilla in Mannila where Joe didn't answer the bell for the last round, I've heard Ali say he was thinking about not answering the bell himself...

If we use Punchstats, Ron Lyle whipped Ali, as Ali didn't throw any punches until round 11 (or so).

And we haven't discussed the Ken Norton fights...

Now to another of my points...Is it right that Ali lit the Olympic torch when he threw his gold medal into the Ohio River, while ignoring Joe who never disrespected the Olympics?

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

Now to another of my points...Is it right that Ali lit the Olympic torch when he threw his gold medal into the Ohio River, while ignoring Joe who never disrespected the Olympics?

Kurt, I don't believe Ali threw the medal in the river out of disrespect to the Olympics. According to his autobiography he did it after being refused service at a 'whites-only' restaurant, and fighting with a white gang.

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Kurt

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Kurt, I don't believe Ali threw the medal in the river out of disrespect to the Olympics. According to his autobiography he did it after being refused service at a 'whites-only' restaurant, and fighting with a white gang.

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Ali didn't throw his medal into the Ohio. It's something he made up then retracted.

Seems Ali was misquoted in his own autobiography...

Either Ali tossed his medal or he lied about it...Joe did neither. And because of this, IMO, Joe was more worthy of having the honor of lighting the Olympic flame.

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TLTheLiberator

13 years ago

For Kurt:

I guess you don't believe in the phantom punch?

I wish Jersey Joe ( who was the referee ) would have known what he was doing cause the fight should not have been stopped when he stopped it.

Ron Lyle??????????????????? That was 15 years after the 1960 Olympics.

I heard a lot of older folks say that Ali - then Clay, really lost to a fellow named Doug Jones early in his career but was given the fight.

Ken Norton fought with a older Ali.

Leon Spinks fought with a much, much older Ali.

Ali clearly fought too long and maybe he should have retired a couple years after the rumble in the jungle.

The Affair Of The Medal:

If he did throw the medal into a river, (I remember the scene from the movie The Greatest)...

... I say he was young and frustrated by life in Dixie and I think we all can admit that the youth are apt to do some very stupid things in the heat of their passions.

Ali's selection as the torch lighter at the Olympics was a nod to his world wide status etc.

According to Ken, Ali made up the story as he is prone to exaggeration.

Has anyone seen that medal?

I wonder what's the real deal?

All The Best!!

TL

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Kurt

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

For Kurt:

I guess you don't believe in the phantom punch?

Nope. I don't believe Sonny Liston could be knocked out with a single punch. And Ali never had another single punch KO in his entire career.

Ron Lyle??????????????????? That was 15 years after the 1960 Olympics.

Doesn't matter, as the Olympics wasn't my point. Ali's legacy is my point.

Ken Norton fought with a older Ali.

Doesn't matter. Joe Louis held the heavyweight title for 12 years and something like 22 straight title defenses. And IMO, Joe Louis was the real Greatest of All Time.

Not only did Ken Norton break Ali's jaw in the first fight, I believe Norton won the other 2 fights.

I actually think Ali's greatest performance was in his loss to Norton in the first fight...Having his jaw broken in the first round, with a 7/8 in gap in his jaw bone, he still finished the fight, an amazing display of heart (and pain tolerance).

Leon Spinks fought with a much, much older Ali.

Leon Spinks wasn't a very good pro fighter.

Ali clearly fought too long and maybe he should have retired a couple years after the rumble in the jungle.

Yeah, but I'm not holding the end of his career against him, such as the loss to Larry Holmes, one of the saddest fights of all time. But Ali's treatment of an old Floyd Paterson was just as sad, with Ali showing a total lack of class.

The Affair Of The Medal:

If he did throw the medal into a river, (I remember the scene from the movie The Greatest)...

... I say he was young and frustrated by life in Dixie and I think we all can admit that the youth are apt to do some very stupid things in the heat of their passions.

Ali's selection as the torch lighter at the Olympics was a nod to his world wide status etc.

According to Ken, Ali made up the story as he is prone to exaggeration.

And Joe had none of the controversy. I agree, Ali was selected for the style and popularity (and not the substance).

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TLTheLiberator

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Joe was a great one. He lacked Ali's speed, flash and charisma. With the gloves off in the street, I'd bet Frazier every time.

How about when they fought in the studio with Howard Cosell standing by?

I think the fight was staged.

TL

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HeySal

13 years ago

Not being a boxing fan, this isn't something I'd have remembered on my own, but now that it's brought up I do. It's hard to believe that was 40 years ago.

Haven't heard anything about Ali in the last few years. Has he died or just mentally deteriorated enough he's no longer able to speak to people an make any sense?

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TLTheLiberator

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Not being a boxing fan, this isn't something I'd have remembered on my own, but now that it's brought up I do. It's hard to believe that was 40 years ago.

Haven't heard anything about Ali in the last few years. Has he died or just mentally deteriorated enough he's no longer able to speak to people an make any sense?

Ali's still alive and kicking, living quite comfortable, and is a pretty decent magician, although I'm sure he's missing out on a lot speaker fees.

His wife says he speaks OK if he tries very hard but he's very lazy and doesn't want to put in the effort.

The Louisville Lip has been silenced.

TL

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TLTheLiberator

13 years ago

Kurt:

So you're saying that Joe Louis was the greatest of all time.

Sorry but I'm going the have to respectfully disagree.

It would have been a great fight.

- Louis fought and dominated when the heavyweight ranks were not remotely close to a golden age and the bum of the month club truly consisted of bums.

- Ali was taller with a longer reach by 4 inches, clearly much faster, could throw a good punch while backing up and at the height of his powers could knock anyone out - quickly.

- Ali holds wins over 7 other Boxing Hall of Fame inductees while Louis beat only 3 members: Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Max Schmeling.

Of course it's just conjuncture and we'll have no way of proving our opinions but with both fighters at the height of their powers I find it very hard to believe Louis could have beaten Ali in a trilogy.

Of course since they were heavyweights there's always a punchers' chance and that would have accounted for the one victory Louis may have won if he fought Ali 3 times.

All The Best!!

TL

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Kurt

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Kurt:

So you're saying that Joe Louis was the greatest of all time.

Sorry but I'm going the have to respectfully disagree.

It would have been a great fight.

- Louis fought and dominated when the heavyweight ranks were not remotely close to a golden age and the bum of the month club truly consisted of bums.

- Ali was taller with a longer reach by 4 inches, clearly much faster, could throw a good punch while backing up and at the height of his powers could knock anyone out - quickly.

- Ali holds wins over 7 other Boxing Hall of Fame inductees while Louis beat only 3 members: Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Max Schmeling.

Of course it's just conjuncture and we'll have no way of proving our opinions but with both fighters at the height of their powers I find it very hard to believe Louis could have beaten Ali in a trilogy.

Of course since they were heavyweights there's always a punchers' chance and that would have accounted for the one victory Louis may have won if he fought Ali 3 times.

All The Best!!

TL

Joe Louis also fought when the best athletes of the day were boxers. The NBA and NFL had the second rate athletes of the era, as compared to boxing. If Jim Brown lived in Joe's era, there's a very good chance he would have been a boxer and not a football player.

Plus, watch Joe Louis' 6 inch punching power...Nobody to this day had a 6 inch punch like Joe. Ali would never get away with resting on the ropes against Joe. He'd have to be on his bike for all 15 rounds.

And a big part of the Golden Era of boxing was due to TV. Ali came around at the exact same time as satelites for TV, which gave us the Wide World of Sports. Had TV been around in Joe's day, who knows, that may have been the Golden Era if the public could have watched them on TV for free.

If you want to get into size, Ali would likely struggle with the bigger heavyweights of today, like Lennox Lewis and the Klitchkos. These guys aren't like the big guys of Ali's day as Lewis and the Klitchkos are all very athletic, with great balance and footwork.