Warrior chargeback on a $6 WSO hurts business

23 replies
  • OFF TOPIC
  • |
I just received a PayPal notice that someone issued a charge-back via their bank for a $6 WSO!

For a product that I'm offering a 30-day money back guarantee. He just ordered on March 9 so I would have gladly given him his refund.

He claims it's an "unauthorized charge" even though he downloaded it five times...



Perhaps someone hacked his PayPal. Who knows. But why not email me first?

Folks, charge backs are bad news for our business. Think before you do something like this to another Warrior. Communication is key.

If you get too many charge backs you can get booted. Luckily I don't have many. This is just third one since I've had my PayPal account (2003).

If there is a money back guarantee then exercise it before you cause a lot of un-necessary headaches to publishers for no other reason than you're a coward or clueless on the process, who feels safe doing a charge back over $6 freaking dollars vs just emailing me or PM'ing and asking me for a refund.

I wish PayPal and Credit Cards companies would go after this type of consumer abuse.

This guy just caused a ton of money and time wasted from his bank, credit card company, PayPal, and me. Just because he doesn't know how to do business online. The big companies/banks pass these expenses to all of us.

So anyone reading this who thinks a charge back is no big deal and doesn't hurt the merchant, it does. So please... Think. Communicate. And everyone is happy.
#business #chargeback #hurts #warrior #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
    Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

    He claims it's an "authorized charge" even though he downloaded it five times...
    Did you mean to say "unauthorized charge" there?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536771].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Matt Ward
    That really is a crappy move. It's not hard to do a refund request through Paypal, even, rather than go straight to the bank. :confused:
    Signature
    "Keep moving forward."
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536798].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    Make sure you follow up with Paypal as they fight chargebacks automatically. You have proof there.

    I have had 3 chargebacks since 2002 and have won two out of three with less proof than you have.

    Here is a hint.

    Tell Paypal they never contacted you about the purchase before filing a chargeback. That is a bank rule.

    Word irt like this:

    "Chargeback rules state that the customer must contact the vendor before filing a chargeback. This person did not contact me."

    The bank found in my favor twice by just putting this info in there. I had no proof like you have there.

    Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

    I just received a PayPal notice that someone issued a charge-back via their bank for a $6 WSO!

    For a product that I'm offering a 30-day money back guarantee. He just ordered on March 9 so I would have gladly given him his refund.

    He claims it's an "authorized charge" even though he downloaded it five times...



    Perhaps someone hacked his PayPal. Who knows. But why not email me first?

    Folks, charge backs are bad news for our business. Think before you do something like this to another Warrior. Communication is key.

    If you get too many charge backs you can get booted. Luckily I don't have many. This is just third one since I've had my PayPal account (2003).

    If there is a money back guarantee then exercise it before you cause a lot of un-necessary headaches to publishers for no other reason than you're a coward or clueless on the process, who feels safe doing a charge back over $6 freaking dollars vs just emailing me or PM'ing and asking me for a refund.

    I wish PayPal and Credit Cards companies would go after this type of consumer abuse.

    This guy just caused a ton of money and time wasted from his bank, credit card company, PayPal, and me. Just because he doesn't know how to do business online. The big companies/banks pass these expenses to all of us.

    So anyone reading this who thinks a charge back is no big deal and doesn't hurt the merchant, it does. So please... Think. Communicate. And everyone is happy.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536804].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Lou Diamond
    Hello,
    number 1 rule in sales and refunds is: don't take it personal.
    Signature

    Something new soon.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536807].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
      Originally Posted by Lou Diamond View Post

      Hello,
      number 1 rule in sales and refunds is: don't take it personal.
      Um - this was not a refund. It is a chargeback which is a whole different matter and it pisses people off.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536829].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by Lou Diamond View Post

      Hello,
      number 1 rule in sales and refunds is: don't take it personal.
      Hi Lou,

      As Tim noted this was not a refund request. He went to his bank. Initiated a charge back and lied stating the charge was unauthorized.

      I don't take refunds personally. I offer them. I stand by them. But a charge back can hurt your business thus my OP.

      Maybe folks don't realize that charge backs can lead to accounts being closed (if you get too many). So I'm hoping this sinks in to anyone out there who thinks charge backs are just a way of asking for a refund. It isn't.

      It's worse. I don't even have the option to refund him now because PayPal has the transaction on hold pending an investigation so the "refund" link is gone until they investigate.

      So big difference refund vs. charge back.

      Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

      Might want to cross out his name a bit better, I can easily tell what his first name is and probably his second name.

      But yeah, that sucks. I would not worry too much about it, though.
      Thanks. Uploaded new image.
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536880].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mike McAleer
      Originally Posted by Lou Diamond View Post

      Hello,
      number 1 rule in sales and refunds is: don't take it personal.
      It is hard to do that because it is your product and you put lots of work into it.
      Signature

      Recent domain flips : $8->$1000 Social recruiting Software dot com $8->$2000 MobileSalesSoftware.com
      Invest in domains without the hard work !
      Email for details...Mike McAleer at me dot com

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536883].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author webpromotions
    Short answer, some people just suck.

    I just got 14 'supposed' chargebacks from a client of a membership site that created a monthly subscription back in 2009.

    The message from the (14) paypal emails was:
    "Your buyer asked his or her bank to reverse the payment for the following
    transaction"

    I immediately called Paypal and asked if this was really a chargeback initiated by his bank since I can't imagine any bank willing to go back 14 months, but they couldn't tell me - said the codes attached were strange, yadda yadda yadda.

    The worst part is that he said these were 'unauthorized claims'. Paypal told me its pretty obvious this isn't the case and informed me to provide all info I can, and they will definitely do everything to fight this supposed 'bank reversal'.

    I also asked them what they do to the (illegal?)/fake 'unauthorized claim' issues like this, and they said they definitely take note and they will close accounts to users who abuse this.

    So these false chargebacks don't just hurt paypal, the banks, and the seller - they can also get the buyers account closed.

    I spoke to 2 different reps there, and both of them said they do NOT appreciate the people who use the 'unauthorized charge' claims as a method to get a refund for something they don't want, or in my case, for a subscription they forgot to cancel.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536812].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Might want to cross out his name a bit better, I can easily tell what his first name is and probably his second name.

    But yeah, that sucks. I would not worry too much about it, though.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536843].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      This is one I would ask paypal to fight. For the most part with IM purchases "unauthorized charge" is used to mean "I bought it and don't want to pay for it".

      Five downloads? What an idiot.
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
      ***
      Please do not 'release balloons' for celebrations. The balloons and trailing ribbons entangle birds and kill wildlife and livestock that think the balloons are food.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536864].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Shakakka
      number 1 rule in sales and refunds is: don't take it personal.
      Yeah, except the OP doesn't sound like he's taking it personally. He's rightfully pissed because the person did a chargeback when he would've cheerfully refunded the dude his six bucks.

      I'm running four retail sites and have my own merchant account (other than PayPal). You wouldn't believe how many people do a chargeback on something they 'claim' they don't recognize, and when you call them on it, say "Oh. Yeah, that's right... I did order that".

      They're sorry for their stupidity, but it still costs me $25.

      In the case of PayPal, who knows what will happen. They can yank your account out from under you whenever they want. When you click the checkbox that agrees to their TOS, you're basically giving them license to ignore any and all Federal banking laws and regulations. They can seize your money at any time, close your account, refuse to talk to you, and completely shut you down - for any reason - at any time.

      And that, my friends, is why I don't accept PayPal on any of my websites anymore.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536882].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MrDoughBoy
    Banned
    I suspect this is a problem that will continue to grow in the months ahead. People are so financially strapped they are using these tactics to get stuff "free". They order your ebook download and save it then ask for a refund. I know of several people who admitted they are serial refunders. I hope this is not the case in your situation.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536931].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    Maybe call it even since you just put the guy's name out here on the forum.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536932].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

      Maybe call it even since you just put the guy's name out here on the forum.
      Yea right. I edited the image graphic so it's more covered up since it's a violation of forum rules.

      But there is nothing to "get even" about. I wish he would have just asked for a refund so I didn't have to waste time dealing with this since now PayPal is investigating.

      So it's now in the hands of PayPal. I submitted the proof that this isn't an unauthorized charge so I'll see what PayPal does.
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3537073].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author QuickSurf
    Chances of their account being hacked to purchase and download a $6 wso is highly unlikely lol. You can pry search through their post and see if their A serial refunder.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3536959].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    I have a friend with an internet business who has a statement on his membership site - it gives the procedure to cancel which involves sending a fax with a pre-written form. He warns there that if people do a charge back they will be fined $500.

    ... and he does follow up on it and will go to small claims court to get it.

    Chargebacks are really harmful to a business - financially as well as reputation. When people bitch when their credit card triggers a fraud alert and they have to prove they are in possession of the card, they need to understand that while most cards/banks will refund any fraudulent charges to the card holder - nobody refunds the bank fees for 'returned' items to the merchant. This can add up to thousands of dollars...

    Here is one slightly off topic for the books -

    We have an offer to our members to buy a product for around $35 - once you buy it then you can file a rebate claim for the entire amount - this essentially gives you the product to use free for one year and then if you want to keep it you would need to pay for the second year or just quit - no strings.

    Pretty generous.

    We have someone who got the rebate - and then got a refund from Clickbank as well - what a thief.

    He is now locked out of the program and needs to either send back the refund amount or pay $50 to get access to our (otherwise free) program.

    People can be so vicious. They know what they are doing.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3537376].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
    Interesting update. I emailed the person with info on their order and she replied that her PayPal account was hacked and they charged her credit card.

    She said she's never been to the Warrior Forum. So if this is true and I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, there is a thief on the Warrior forum (won't call him a Warrior) buying at least one WSO with a stolen credit card via PayPal.

    I'm going to open a support ticket here with the information I have from DLGuard so the admins are aware. Not much we can do I know but just a heads up.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3541437].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author QuickSurf
      Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

      Interesting update. I emailed the person with info on their order and she replied that her PayPal account was hacked and they charged her credit card.

      She said she's never been to the Warrior Forum. So if this is true and I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, there is a thief on the Warrior forum (won't call him a Warrior) buying at least one WSO with a stolen credit card via PayPal.

      I'm going to open a support ticket here with the information I have from DLGuard so the admins are aware. Not much we can do I know but just a heads up.
      Thats crazy if it ends up being true, I mean seriously whose going to go through the trouble of hacking an paypal account risking getting caught for a $6 wso lol.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3541591].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

    If you get too many charge backs you can get booted. Luckily I don't have many. This is just third one since I've had my PayPal account (2003).
    I'm actually glad to hear it. YOU might not deserve it, but some DO!

    Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

    I wish PayPal and Credit Cards companies would go after this type of consumer abuse.
    How could they? They can't prove anything really.

    And someone mentioned that they downloaded it 5 times. THAT'S GARBAGE! How does ANYONE know? Is there ANY program that actually is built INTO FTP, and they CAN'T be built into HTTP(as it would require hacks to several parts of the server, and be incompatible with browsers), that validates every block, and doesn't do the binary conversion garbage?

    ANYONE with a couple neurons knows there are only TWO reasons to download a file more than once, at least THIS quickly:

    1. He sent the link out, and OTHERS downloaded it.
    2. He had a problem with the download.

    I mentioned how I charged back symantec. It was because THEY built a download routine that kept failing, and then prevented any further attempts! It was late at night, I had an immediate need, and I was just fed up with it. At the time at least I saw no refund, etc...

    I went to another place and got another product.

    So my question to YOU is were the files good? Did you try to avoid things like 600MB downloads? If you didn't, did you tell them AHEAD of time? OH, And did you limit the number of download attempts? If you limited them to 5, THAT might be your answer.

    As for the hacked account? People don't hack for any one thing, it is for the money. They can't email themselves the money, so they buy stuff. What do you THINK they'll do? Buy a JET? They could buy almost anything but. Heck, when someone stole my credit cards, there was a charge for like $30. The TOTAL bill was over $3000 that THEY charged. The highest amount was like $1000 at a "high end" SHOE STORE! And THEY committed an open felony where they could have been KILLED, to get my card. If I had been a cop, and saw them leaving, the cops could be there SO quick. The nearest police station was like a mile away. BTW I was gone for only 3 hours, and they robbed at least 11 apartments that day!

    BTW one would hope that paypal WILL close a customer's account if they have a high number of refunds, or chargebacks, either way. And I'm sure banks don't look too kindly on people that DO serial chargebacks. I really haven't done that many. Most are for things more blatent than the symantec thing, but that made me just MAD, and there seemed to be nobody to help. BTW their payment processor DID blacklist me for a while, since THEY were the one that really got hit.

    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3541733].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      I'm actually glad to hear it. YOU might not deserve it, but some DO!



      How could they? They can't prove anything really.
      Not might... I DO NOT. Don't paint us all with the same brush.

      And yep, how could they. That's why I wrote "I wish".

      Originally Posted by QuickSurf View Post

      Thats crazy if it ends up being true, I mean seriously whose going to go through the trouble of hacking an paypal account risking getting caught for a $6 wso lol.
      I would imagine the hacker went on a little illegal shopping spree once he had access to her credit cards via PayPal. So probably some more charges aside from my $6 WSO.
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3541953].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

        Not might... I DO NOT. Don't paint us all with the same brush.
        Sorry, general statement. MY whole point is don't paint CUSTOMERS with the same brush.

        We ALL know a lot of marketers are FAR from honest, and some customers are VERY honest. And mistakes and problems happen.

        Steve
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3542466].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    One way to prevent "some" of the unauthorized charge claims is to post the person's IP address when they reach the download page. With a script like DLguard you can not only record the person's IP address when they download, but you can have it post their IP address on the thank-you page. If they see that you are recording their IP address, they are usually less likely to try and claim an unauthorized charge.

    Also - make sure you know what paypal is putting onto a persons bill when they buy your product. Then on your thank you page, warn the person what to expect on their bill in the future. Often times what's on the bill does not match the purchase at all. With a little heads up warning, you can help to prevent people from jumping the gun on chargebacks.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3543671].message }}

Trending Topics