Can the Greece Ecomomical issue cause a European recession?

by entry
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Can the Greece Ecomomical issue cause it to have a knock on affect to the other European countries, germany, uk, france, etc?


and cause an economical recession with them?
  • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
    Yes, it's a high stakes game of stand up Dominoes.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

      Yes, it's a high stakes game of stand up Dominoes.
      Sure but that's not half as much fun as the US version of the game.
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      • Profile picture of the author bravo75
        what is it? 55 Trillion Dollars debt in the U.S? The founding fathers of America warned about this.


        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Sure but that's not half as much fun as the US version of the game.
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  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
    Originally Posted by entry View Post

    ...an economical recession...
    That would be preferable to an expensive recession.
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

      That would be preferable to an expensive recession.
      Sounds like it's going to be one of those anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I don't think the Germans are going to allow it to happen to them.

    TL
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      I don't think the Germans are going to allow it to happen to them.

      TL
      The German economy is doing pretty well and they have a lot of regulation and social programs. The difference is they have invested in their own infra-structure, especially green energy.
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      • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
        ^ Kurt is spot.

        Germany, unlike the UK for instance, has always invested in manufacturing.

        They are easily the economic powerhouse of Europe.

        The problem they have which is similar to the UK is that both of us are net contributors to the EU, practically every other country takes more than they give.

        And the EU keeps growing. Something like 27 countries in it now all with no money.

        So our tax and Germanys taxes are being used to support the rest.

        This is starting to cause real resentment in Germany and the UK as why do we go to work?

        Dan
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        The German economy is doing pretty well and they have a lot of regulation and social programs. The difference is they have invested in their own infra-structure, especially green energy.
        Kurt, you may not agree with this but, I think the German politicians and oligarchs are much more responsive to their folks needs due to their WW2 experience and are trying hard to make amends.

        TL
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          Kurt, you may not agree with this but, I think the German politicians and oligarchs are much more responsive to their folks needs due to their WW2 experience and are trying hard to make amends.

          TL
          If ONLY it worked that way. And they are no more an oligarch than the US and similar countries. They aren't even a monarchy anymore. ICSM...
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      • Profile picture of the author MerlynSanchez
        Actually, Germany's economy is in trouble due to a rapidly aging population and the high costs of social programs including social security.


        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        The German economy is doing pretty well and they have a lot of regulation and social programs. The difference is they have invested in their own infra-structure, especially green energy.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by MerlynSanchez View Post

          Actually, Germany's economy is in trouble due to a rapidly aging population and the high costs of social programs including social security.
          The "date" on this article is 13 hours ago:
          German unemployment rate dips to 6.9 percent in June as economy booms - The Washington Post
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          • Profile picture of the author MerlynSanchez
            They have taken measures in the past year which have improved their economy dramatically and are certainly the strongest European economy.

            However, their social programs have been heavily cut and they still face a big problem because of their shifting demographic.

            In Germany, the economic crisis weighs heavily on the poor - Los Angeles Times




            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by MerlynSanchez View Post

              They have taken measures in the past year which have improved their economy dramatically and are certainly the strongest European economy.

              However, their social programs have been heavily cut and they still face a big problem because of their shifting demographic.

              In Germany, the economic crisis weighs heavily on the poor - Los Angeles Times
              And as you pointed out, the German economy has improved over the year since the article you referenced was written.

              Plus, their building of green energy solutions will pay dividends for decades.

              Like I said, "The German economy is doing pretty well". I never said it was great nor did I say it will continue in the future. The fact is, the German economy IS doing pretty well.
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              • Profile picture of the author MerlynSanchez
                I'm not arguing with you and I'm not disagreeing with you. (although I notice that you sometimes get defensive if someone takes exception to your posts)

                I am pointing out something in regards to a comment you made about social programs NOT just about the economy.

                The economy was in a major slump in 2008 until 2010. It has improved in the past year and is doing well NOW.

                However, they have drastically cut some social programs and given tax breaks and other concessions to the wealthy and corporate interests.

                Their birth rate is very low and their number of retirees is very high which is a major concern.

                Just adding some details to your statement.






                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                And as you pointed out, the German economy has improved over the year since the article you referenced was written.

                Plus, their building of green energy solutions will pay dividends for decades.

                Like I said, "The German economy is doing pretty well". I never said it was great nor did I say it will continue in the future. The fact is, the German economy IS doing pretty well.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                  Originally Posted by MerlynSanchez View Post

                  I'm not arguing with you and I'm not disagreeing with you. (although I notice that you sometimes get defensive if someone takes exception to your posts)

                  I am pointing out something in regards to a comment you made about social programs NOT just about the economy.

                  The economy was in a major slump in 2008 until 2010. It has improved in the past year and is doing well NOW.

                  However, they have drastically cut some social programs and given tax breaks and other concessions to the wealthy and corporate interests.

                  Their birth rate is very low and their number of retirees is very high which is a major concern.

                  Just adding some details to your statement.

                  To be perfectly clear, I get annoyed with the constant knit-pickers on this forum who seem to look at every single syllable of a CASUAL conversation as if it's an essay or something that's being brought into law, then ignore a two letter word such as "is".

                  The truth is, one more time, the German economy is doing pretty well, despite having a lot of social programs and regulations, as you said yourself:
                  It has improved in the past year and is doing well NOW.

                  That's EXACTLY what I said in my first post. Glad you agree. "Is" means NOW, not in the past, not in the future.

                  And if you want to get picky, the Germans have also worked hand-in-hand with the labor unions to ensure that their middle class has a strong standard of living, quite the opposite of many countries that are NOW hurting worse than Germany is NOW.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
                    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                    The German economy is doing pretty well and they have a lot of regulation and social programs. The difference is they have invested in their own infra-structure, especially green energy.
                    Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                    It took some time for the Germans had to absorb the East Germans back into the fold - after unification and that resulted in a slowdown...
                    The German economy is indeed doing well quite suddenly, after being the so-called "sick man" of Europe for quite a while, but it has little to do with investment in manufacturing (which they always did anyway), or working the cost of re-unification out of it's economy (which I'm pretty sure won't be the case for a long time yet) or anything else. It's simply down to the changing situation with the euro, which has, in recent times, become very favourable to German exporters (while simultaneously wiping out alot of their competition in other eurozone members).

                    If the euro collapsed, Germany would be flung back into it's former "sick man" role pretty quickly; that's why the German government has been so keen to avoid any default in any eurozone member (and at seemingly any cost).

                    Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

                    And the EU keeps growing. Something like 27 countries in it now all with no money.

                    So our tax and Germanys taxes are being used to support the rest.

                    This is starting to cause real resentment in Germany and the UK as why do we go to work?
                    Did you copy-and-paste that from the Daily Mail? :rolleyes:

                    Incidentally, the economy of the European Union is in the region of U.S.$17 trillion in size, of which Germany and the UK together account for about 5 trillion; the other members - those with "no money", as you say - account for the the remaining 12 trillion (and that group includes the 8 other EU member states that are also net contributors to the EU budget, which is where the contributions go - not to "support the rest". That budget is about €140 billion/year - about 0.8% of the size of the EUs economy).
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        The German economy is doing pretty well and they have a lot of regulation and social programs. The difference is they have invested in their own infra-structure, especially green energy.
        Interesting, since they have had a good reputation for their economies before the "green energy" label, and they recently decided they will shut down nuclear powerplants, after the japan fiasco.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    The world economic structure is based on flawed concepts and therefore is vulnerable everywhere.
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    • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
      There is no real democracy anymore in Europe. Whoever is voted in these days has no power. It is all decided in Brussels by politicians no one voted for who pass bills without asking anyone.

      Enjoy this clip of a British MEP speaking to some bloke who somehow is the President of Europe despite no elections or anyone wanting one.


      Dan

      PS: This is the most political thread I have seen on this forum, I keep expecting it to be pulled.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

        There is no real democracy anymore in Europe. Whoever is voted in these days has no power. It is all decided in Brussels by politicians no one voted for who pass bills without asking anyone.

        Enjoy this clip of a British MEP speaking to some bloke who somehow is the President of Europe despite no elections or anyone wanting one.

        YouTube - ‪Nigel Farage harangues EU President Herman van Rompuy‬‏

        Dan

        PS: This is the most political thread I have seen on this forum, I keep expecting it to be pulled.

        It's not like the pound is integrated with the Euro.

        If I remember correctly, you Brits pulled out at the last minute after everyone else had committed to the Euro.


        TL
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    I think a more relevant question would be whether the Greek crisis could lead to a world recession. The answer would definitely be a yes given every country is interlinked now. I think you are putting too much faith on the Germans, they were the sick man of Europe just a few years back.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by derekwong28 View Post

      I think a more relevant question would be whether the Greek crisis could lead to a world recession. The answer would definitely be a yes given every country is interlinked now. I think you are putting too much faith on the Germans, they were the sick man of Europe just a few years back.
      I hear ya.

      I thought the Turks were known as the sick man of Europe.

      It took some time for the Germans had to absorb the East Germans back into the fold - after unification and that resulted in a slowdown but now they clearly have the best economy in Europe and I think will be much less effected by a recession verses the other European countries.

      TL
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      • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        I hear ya.

        I thought the Turks were known as the sick man of Europe.

        It took some time for the Germans had to absorb the East Germans back into the fold - after unification and that resulted in a slowdown but now they clearly have the best economy in Europe and I think will be much less effected by a recession verses the other European countries.

        TL
        UK was the sick man of Europe until it changed places with Germany. Germany and Japan are so alike in many ways that we don't really know whether Germany has recovered for good. Japan had brief periods of optimism and growth during the past two decades as well but they have not got of it at all.
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
          My take is a bit different. If any of the PIIGS fall (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, and Spain) then we're (the world economy) done.

          The problem is that Spain's economy is to large and is probably not salvageable in the current economic climate.

          Just my thinking.

          Joe Mobley


          Originally Posted by entry View Post


          Can the Greece Ecomomical issue cause it to have a knock on affect to the other European countries, germany, uk, france, etc?
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

            My take is a bit different. If any of the PIIGS fall (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, and Spain) then we're (the world economy) done.

            The problem is that Spain's economy is to large and is probably not salvageable in the current economic climate.

            Just my thinking.

            Joe Mobley
            The ONLY reason why you may be right is because they are tied to the Euro, and there is a lot of economic and political incest!

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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Once again, the dude's a kook.

    That 55 or so trillion are projected future obligations not due anytime soon and it is also pay as we go and a lot of that money - if not most, will be paid to U.S. citizens in the form of social security and medicare payments.

    What's the big deal?

    Let me add...

    ...that we also can not continue on this present yearly deficit path that we are on and we'd better correct it within the next 10 years or so or we are going to be toast.

    TL
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      What's the big deal?
      Yep we'll just raise our debt limit again and keep going further in the hole, no big deal:rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Yep we'll just raise our debt limit again and keep going further in the hole, no big deal:rolleyes:

        Thom,

        raising that debt limit is for debts & obligations we've already incurred, not future debts.


        All The Best!!

        TL
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          Thom,

          raising that debt limit is for debts & obligations we've already incurred, not future debts.


          All The Best!!

          TL
          Explain how that's a sound economic move. It doesn't pay off any of the debts and it allows us to go further it to debt.
          As far as our obligations go, we have plenty of obligations right here that need addressing and that are more important then our obligations to other countries. We always hear talk of cutting things from the budget that effect us, but do you ever hear of them cutting military spending or even talk about all the money we send over seas to countries like Israel?
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

            Explain how that's a sound economic move. It doesn't pay off any of the debts and it allows us to go further it to debt.
            Because if we default, our interest rates will greatly rise. It also means that the military personel, people on social security, people that own bonds and many more won't get paid.


            As far as our obligations go, we have plenty of obligations right here that need addressing and that are more important then our obligations to other countries. We always hear talk of cutting things from the budget that effect us, but do you ever hear of them cutting military spending or even talk about all the money we send over seas to countries like Israel?
            It all comes down to oil...

            Our foreign aid isn't as much as people think. It really is about the military and us sending our money over-seas to meet our energy demands and closing the loopholes that allow corps. to profit from our market, but outsource the labor over-seas.

            I think we need an real explanation as to why we need to spend about 10x on our military as the next closest country to be safe. If our military is so great, why isn't 5x as much money as the next guy enough to protect us?

            We know the real answer...There's too many lobbyists for the Industrial Military Complex, who's in bed with Big Oil.
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              Because if we default, our interest rates will greatly rise. It also means that the military personel, people on social security, people that own bonds and many more won't get paid.




              It all comes down to oil...

              Our foreign aid isn't as much as people think. It really is about the military and us sending our money over-seas to meet our energy demands and closing the loopholes that allow corps. to profit from our market, but outsource the labor over-seas.

              I think we need an real explanation as to why we need to spend about 10x on our military as the next closest country to be safe. If our military is so great, why isn't 5x as much money as the next guy enough to protect us?

              We know the real answer...There's too many lobbyists for the Industrial Military Complex, who's in bed with Big Oil.
              I understand what happens if we default. We'll pay the interest to the countries we owe money to and screw the citizens here to do it.
              It's not a matter of our foreign add being as much as people think, it's that it still exists. We have to many financial problems here to be sending any money to other countries no matter the amount.
              I dropped standard cable to basic cable which cut my bill by $40 a month. Not much money, but it's a savings of $480 a year and $4,800 over 10 years. Small amounts add up. Plus that extra $40 a month pays my car ins. bill.
              Seems to me if we're shelling out more money then we have that any cuts no matter how big or small are worth doing.
              The rest of your post I agree with 100%
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              • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
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                Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                I understand what happens if we default. We'll pay the interest to the countries we owe money to and screw the citizens here to do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Once again, the dude's a kook.

      That 55 or so trillion are projected future obligations not due anytime soon and it is also pay as we go and a lot of that money - if not most, will be paid to U.S. citizens in the form of social security and medicare payments.

      What's the big deal?

      Let me add...

      ...that we also can not continue on this present yearly deficit path that we are on and we'd better correct it within the next 10 years or so or we are going to be toast.

      TL
      Exactly. It's like saying a person has a $250,000 home financed over 30 years and claiming they have to pay the entire mortgage next month. In reality, they have 360 months (let's say 720 paychecks) to come up with the money, not one.

      Also, I tried to watch it, but like TL, once I heard the social security card comments, I didn't feel like wasting any more of my time. Plus posting a 41 minute video and expecting everyone to dro everything else and take the time to listen to the entire thing is asking a little much.

      And...If we go on a ratio of debt to GNP, the UK is in worse shape than the US.
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      • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Exactly. It's like saying a person has a $250,000 home financed over 30 years <snip>
        That's a nice price for a home. It would be the price of an outhouse in Vancouver.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Exactly. It's like saying a person has a $250,000 home financed over 30 years and claiming they have to pay the entire mortgage next month. In reality, they have 360 months (let's say 720 paychecks) to come up with the money, not one.

        Also, I tried to watch it, but like TL, once I heard the social security card comments, I didn't feel like wasting any more of my time. Plus posting a 41 minute video and expecting everyone to dro everything else and take the time to listen to the entire thing is asking a little much.

        And...If we go on a ratio of debt to GNP, the UK is in worse shape than the US.
        You forgot one MINOR thing! " It's like saying a person has a $250,000 home financed over 30 years, with a VARIABLE RATE, and claiming they can't pay for it."

        Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Once again, the dude's a kook.

      That 55 or so trillion are projected future obligations not due anytime soon and it is also pay as we go and a lot of that money - if not most, will be paid to U.S. citizens in the form of social security and medicare payments.

      What's the big deal?

      Let me add...

      ...that we also can not continue on this present yearly deficit path that we are on and we'd better correct it within the next 10 years or so or we are going to be toast.

      TL
      Well, I don't know about the specifics, but a lot of the EFFECTS he talks about ARE the case! WHO CARES WHY the land and money aren't considered ours. The fact is they AREN'T!

      As for the future demands, some probably ARE demand notes! Social Security is now provided to MORE people, and they have at least SPOKEN about how people born after about 1955 should NOT get Social Security. Were YOU born after 1955? I WAS!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
        So young yet so wise and i always thought wisdom came with age
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
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          There should be no more bail outs for countries like Greece. Sounds tough but they've got to be allowed to go bankrupt. No more propping up of their economy. They've got nothing else left to give and they can never get themselves out of their financial debt unless they go bankrupt.

          Although Greece isn't the only problem in Europe. Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland also and several others all fall into the same camp. All of them eventually, like it or lump it, will end up completely and utterly bankrupt. It matters not the temporary interjections of cash pumped into their individual economies to try and keep them afloat. It's simply exacerbating the overall European debt crisis / problem.

          What we've all got to do is to pump more into those entrepreneurs businesses directly who can actually help with the supply of goods and manufacturing. And introduce more measures to encourage consumer spending in these markets from right here within the West.

          Of course the major investors and asset fund bankers are now hedging their bets very carefully. Both Europe and especially America are standing on very shaky foundations at this time. The knock on effects of the European debt crisis are now having, as we've seen today, very serious knock on effects to investor confidence in the United States. And where now are they pumping all of their money? Why, over to Asia of course and other similar emerging markets.

          China on the other hand is stepping up to the plate in the interests of their own economy. Manufacturing on a level never before experienced in that part of the world. And sooner or later en masse the Chinese will be encouraged to buy more and more into their own manufacturing enterprises with a great stimulus to buy their own goods 'in-house'. Which in turn can only fuel their own emerging global super economy.

          The problem here in the West is the political ends do not match the needs of the economy. So whilst there may be solutions on the horizon, these won't come into being any time soon precisely because the political price to implement such change/s, the will power to make these changes come about through law - is undeniably flawed through and through.

          In short sooner or later, we have no choice now, both America and Europe will go bankrupt.

          Which just perhaps is the best thing for us all, all things taken into consideration.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

            There should be no more bail outs for countries like Greece. Sounds tough but they've got to be allowed to go bankrupt. No more propping up of their economy. They've got nothing else left to give and they can never get themselves out of their financial debt unless they go bankrupt.
            The people will probably move to another EU nation.

            Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

            What we've all got to do is to pump more into those entrepreneurs businesses directly who can actually help with the supply of goods and manufacturing. And introduce more measures to encourage consumer spending in these markets from right here within the West.
            It is already happening, has happened, and will happen. To suggest that we give them WELFARE is moronic and runs counter to the spirit of entrepreneurism, and your statement!

            Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

            Of course the major investors and asset fund bankers are now hedging their bets very carefully. Both Europe and especially America are standing on very shaky foundations at this time. The knock on effects of the European debt crisis are now having, as we've seen today, very serious knock on effects to investor confidence in the United States. And where now are they pumping all of their money? Why, over to Asia of course and other similar emerging markets.
            Who knows, things are suddenly DIFFERENT!

            Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

            China on the other hand is stepping up to the plate in the interests of their own economy. Manufacturing on a level never before experienced in that part of the world. And sooner or later en masse the Chinese will be encouraged to buy more and more into their own manufacturing enterprises with a great stimulus to buy their own goods 'in-house'. Which in turn can only fuel their own emerging global super economy.
            You can't keep things in a vacume. Look at the US Dollar. Some in the US may still consider it a dollar but elsewhere they say NOPE! It is DEVALUED.

            Originally Posted by Pete Walker View Post

            The problem here in the West is the political ends do not match the needs of the economy. So whilst there may be solutions on the horizon, these won't come into being any time soon precisely because the political price to implement such change/s, the will power to make these changes come about through law - is undeniably flawed through and through.

            In short sooner or later, we have no choice now, both America and Europe will go bankrupt.

            Which just perhaps is the best thing for us all, all things taken into consideration.
            Well, I would LOVE to say more, but the US going bankrupt is NOT the best for the US. It isn't even the best for the US government. If it DOES, I just hope the receiver is a NON government american that is reasonably smart. That person could become a national hero whose name will be remembered for EASILY the next 200 years!
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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
              Banned
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              To suggest that we give them WELFARE is moronic and runs counter to the spirit of entrepreneurism, and your statement!
              Pardon me? I don't exactly appreciate being called names.

              Who are you?

              And where did I suggest 'WELFARE'?

              Please stick to the facts.
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    this is crazy, if they bailout the people, its just gunna cause more tragic news down the road.

    No wonder they are protesting. I think we are ain the midst of a fake recovery and most countries are going to collapse further. The good thing is that the IM niche will get stronger, as people lose their jobs, and be looking else where to make money.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Europe Gives $17 Billion to Greece to Avoid Default


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/02/bu...imes&seid=auto
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    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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    • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
      LOL -No Thomas it is not from the Daily Mail.


      There is a growing resentment towards what is being paid into these things both here and in Germany, and for what the money is being used for.

      Whatever statistics you wish to put up doesn't change fact.

      Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    I think the bailout should prevent it, but this looks pretty risky that this could happen to Greece
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    S&P threatens Greece with default rating - CNN.com

    S&P threatens to downgrade Greece to default should French and German banks agree to rollover their debts. This is far from over yet.
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    Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    The crisis is growing, I hope it won't reach critical mass

    BBC News - Global stock markets slump on eurozone debt fears
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    Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28
    The Dow falls 508 points, the worst day since 2008. It seems the markets are worried about a double dip recession this time.

    Market Report - Aug. 4, 2011 - CNNMoney
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    Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

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