History's Honoring of Murderous Butchers

Attack any given messenger among many many messengers all you want, but Christopher Columbus's genocidal policies are widely documented in myriad sources, even by himself. I've noticed a pattern in some of your responses, suggesting a certain slant. Facts can be inconvenient in trying to maintain some postures, but I'm sure you'll succeed in doing so.

At last, an honest intellectual.

No doubt judged guilty by fellow plagiarists, fabricators and falsificators.

I hear you Tim.

But the reason the Spanish were mad at him was because they caught him double dealing with the Portuguese.

That's why Brazil became a colony of Portugal instead of Spain and they speak Portuguese etc.

I hear it's all in his diaries.

Wikipedia says he was brought back in chains after his 3rd voyage and then after 6 weeks of imprisonment, talked himself into another voyage.

I thought he was brought back in chains after his 4th and final voyage.

I don't believe for a minute the Spanish were mad at him because of his atrocities.

OK, maybe a little but that's not why they locked him up.

Of course, I could be wrong.

TL

It was both.

These discussions amuse me to no end.

Know what folks?

We weren't there. We don't know. Nobody knows for certain what happened.
And the accounts that we read, from whatever source, nobody knows for
certain as to their credibility and accuracy.

So by all means...go choose your sides and have it out.

But in the end...nobody here knows for certain.

Nobody.

Those numbers make a lot more sense than the 8 million or what ever it was that was mentioned above.

Woe unto those that could not defend themselves against the European oligarchs and their worldwide expansion staring about 1492.

Having said that, it's important to note that except for one battle in France in 711AD (Tours) Western Europe would probably have been overrun by the Islamic Moors from North Africa.

BTW, most of Spain missed out on the European dark ages and flourished during the time the Moors dominated from about 711AD until the late 1400's when the Spanish reclaimed their lands.

Looking back, it's not surprised the Spanish Inquisition happened where and the way it happened since Islam had made such a indelible imprint on the inhabitants that the church felt the need to erase it totally - by what is reported as any means necessary.

Also...

About 1215AD, if it wasn't for the untimely death of the great Khan, western Europe would have probably been overrun by the Mongols as they had already advanced across eastern Europe.

But after Khan's untimely death, they miraculously returned to the Asian steppes from whence they came.

Even though Mr. Columbus never set foot on North or South America he is given the credit for "discovering" America.

Americans of Italian decent pushed for the national holiday and that's where we are today.

However, without his "discovery" and the opening up of the "new world" by Europeans, I doubt if many of us at this forum would be alive today.

All The Best!!

TL

This is what I've read and heard...That the whole mess started over a single incident of a native taking a cup that belonged to one of the Spaniards. The natives had no concept of ownership and everything belonged to everyone.

On the other hand, the Spaniards thought of it as theft, and dealt with it viciously, causing the Natives to resist and fight back.

TL, I actually wanted to talk about this. Perhaps we should have a thread on who are the most evil people in history.

Hitler, Stalin and Mao are usually quoted as the most evil people in history, with Mao being responsible for the most deaths (40 million of more). However, there are great differences on how the deaths were caused. Hitler mainly directed his murders against "foreign enemies" whereas Stalin against "domestic enemies". Whereas the deaths cause by Mao were mainly due to his misguided policies, in particular the Great Leap Forward. Therefore, since the deaths were "unintentional", it would be unfair to compare him with Hitler and Stalin.

The Chinese empire throughout the ages is often quoted by historians as the most evil empire in the world at the time. But this is very unfair considering the large population and the propensity for famines. Certainly, compared to other countries, there were very few Chinese emperors who could be considered as tyrants.

Genghis Khan was one of the most evil persons in history yet he is honored in Mongolia and China. The mongol empire did not last.

My own choice for the most evil person in history would actually be the First Emperor of China. This was supported by an eminent Russian historian. To date, he is still a very reviled figure in China. There are few attempts to rehabilitate him but as far as his achievements go, they lasted till this very day. Without him, China would not be a unified country today, there would be a large number of countries like Europe, which of course may not be a bad thing. There would not be a single written Chinese script.


Derek

The Mongols were a part of history that I did read a lot about.
I also understand they did have the biggest conquered empire ever.

I found that a lot of the way's they pulled this off was pure genius.

They were not raving mad savages as often portrayed.

One of the ways they pulled this off was their horses, they don't gallop, but do a canter. thereby letting the horse and rider travel much farther, without wearing out. Next time you see something on modern day Mongols watch the way the horses move.

Another thing they did was leave a foal at a base camp and then let the mare find it, even thru Siberian darkness. Just let the reins go and the Mares would lead them back.
Just a small example of how they used every little detail, to make a successful campaign.


I always say there is a ton we can learn from so called primitive peoples, they had no choice but to learn to survive.

From what I understand there weren't that many 7/11 s around the corner back then....

Kurt, I did not deny the Great Wall was a failure. All I said was that one of the purpose of the Great Wall was to keep the Chinese people in. So that they are captives or slaves of the Chinese emperor.

The point about military efficiency I made mainly referred to the then Mongol population vs the territories they conquered at that time. I was not comparing Genghis Khan to Alexander directly as an individual military commander. Genghis Khan was an illiterate peasant, he had to take the throne by himself. The bulk of the work of Genghis Khan was to unite the Mongol tribes rather than foreign conquests, much of that was left to his successors.

There is an interesting series on the history channel called "Ancients behaving badly". It evaluated different tyrants in history. Besides Genghis Khan, it also had programs on Alexander, Attila the Hun, Hannibal, Nero, Clepatra, Caligula and Julia Caesar. If I remember correctly, Genghis Khan and Attila came out very badly.

While most war is considered evil, it is often entered into because it is considered at the time "the lesser of the two". Meaning the evil of war is less than the evil that brought it about.

Sometimes doing nothing produces a greater evil. Had we of gone to war with Hitler sooner, we may have been able to prevent the greater evil.

I think our problem recently is that we're not fully evaluating and "weighing" evils before entering into warfare.

According to one movie "Stalin", the leadership made the mistake of putting him in charge of "security".

The rest is history.


TL