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13 years ago

The whole claim of their ilk is that men control everything and for some reason have something against women. frankly, when I was a kid, over 40 years ago, a male treating a female unfairly, etc... was looked DOWN on. It was bad enough being a bully. If a male bullied another male, people(ESPECIALLY WOMEN) would say "Well, boys will be boys". If they treated a female harshly that was DIFFERENT. Admittedly Women sports were segregated if they even existed, but there were reasons for that, even along the lines of protection. HECK, even on things like leave it to beaver the BEAV had to get PERMISSION to play football! It wasn't to say that sports were some hallowed thing that females shouldn't dare to contaminate.

Sometimes I wonder if they just forgot about school, etc... or were born on some other planet.

Anyway, with the unfair representation they feel that men have, they can't let men say anything against them or post a post such as yours.

all that said, there ARE some BAD males, AND females. I still think they are in the minority. But you shouldn't look at one woman beaten by ONE man, and figure that all men are somehow evil. If that were true, I doubt the human race would even have survived.

Steve

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Kay King

13 years ago

Oh please - this isn't a feminist or male/female fight except for a few people with nothing else to argue about.

An ambitious DA making a big splash before looking to see if there's water in the pool.

If the DA had done the job right - the lies and the background of the woman would have stopped him from making a fool of himself - he was intent on "getting" a big name person.

I used to be a feminist but the whining of the "movement" turned me off in recent years. Women have to decide if they want to be equal partners or sex objects, if they want to be leaders or victims. If you are going to stand up for a "rape victim" - pick someone who is telling the truth.

It's the overused argument of rich vs poor, privileged vs challenged, male vs female. The arugment sounds stupid when the basic story is built on lies as this one was.

kay

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thunderbird

13 years ago

I'm not sure what to make of this story. There is certainly a lot of shady stuff going on in the accuser's life. I don't know if she is a real rape victim or not, but would that mean that even if she had been raped she'd have no legal recourse? I'm not a fan of Huffington Post/AOL, but that article does bring up an interesting point:
"Rape victims, you see, should not have to be Sunday school teachers or virgins."

What about the other alleged rape victim coming forward accusing Strauss-Kahn of rape? Another shady person with questionable motives?
Strauss-Kahn accused of another rape

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Kay King

13 years ago

would that mean that even if she had been raped she'd have no legal recourse

No - but it does mean when you find a "rape victim" lied from the beginning about what she did - and when - you may need to give the accused the benefit of the doubt.

You don't have to be perfect - but you need to be truthful. She wasn't as her story kept changing and what she said was proven false. The lies led to more lies and more lies. At some point, someone has to say "wait a minute".

It's a delicate balance for the law - but the right to accuse someone has to be balanced by protection of someone who might be unfairly accused.

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thunderbird

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

No - but it does mean when you find a "rape victim" lied from the beginning about what she did - and when - you may need to give the accused the benefit of the doubt.

You don't have to be perfect - but you need to be truthful. She wasn't as her story kept changing and what she said was proven false. The lies led to more lies and more lies. At some point, someone has to say "wait a minute".

It's a delicate balance for the law - but the right to accuse someone has to be balanced by protection of someone who might be unfairly accused.

Certainly her inconsistency and pattern of lying (mostly about issues unrelated to the alleged rape) will likely destroy her case, but what's the explanation for this -- rough sex?

"forensic details of the alleged assault which include damage to the ligaments to her shoulder, ripped stockings and photographed bruises to her vagina."

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Chris Worner

13 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

Certainly her inconsistency and pattern of lying (mostly about issues unrelated to the alleged rape) will likely destroy her case, but what's the explanation for this -- rough sex?

"forensic details of the alleged assault which include damage to the ligaments to her shoulder, ripped stockings and photographed bruises to her vagina."

Thunderbird,

this woman was also recorded on tape talking to her imprisoned drug dealer boyfriend, talking about how much money DSK has, and she assured her BF that she had done, "this,"(Reference to first false rape allegation to gain sympathy and entry into the US) before and that she, "knew what she was doing."

So it isn't just her lying about the sequence of events. ThomM, in case you hadn't noticed, the author of that article is exceptionally biased and the actual rape examination concluded that non-force full(non-coercive) sex took place. As for the vaginal bruise, one can only speculate judging by her actions and words.

Chris

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Oh please - this isn't a feminist or male/female fight except for a few people with nothing else to argue about.

An ambitious DA making a big splash before looking to see if there's water in the pool.

If the DA had done the job right - the lies and the background of the woman would have stopped him from making a fool of himself - he was intent on "getting" a big name person.

I used to be a feminist but the whining of the "movement" turned me off in recent years. Women have to decide if they want to be equal partners or sex objects, if they want to be leaders or victims. If you are going to stand up for a "rape victim" - pick someone who is telling the truth.

It's the overused argument of rich vs poor, privileged vs challenged, male vs female. The arugment sounds stupid when the basic story is built on lies as this one was.

kay

I didn't say ALL women were like that. They certainly aren't. YOU actually AGREED with me when you spoke about how YOU quit the movement because of the whining, etc... I still stand by the fact that the OTHERS, of which YOU certainly aren't a part, want to SQUASH dissent. It gets people to realize that there ARE good males in the world, many females DON'T agree with them, etc...

With THIS case, it turns out that the accuser was guilty as all get out! HECK, if she were raped, it would almost be a SERVICE to civilized society. I mean if she is going to lie about it, she should at least experience it! It would be like torturing one that loved to torture others. POETIC JUSTICE! But she was an illegal, defamed many, etc... She didn't even deserve to be in the country. HE was rich, famous, and powerful, and I DOUBT he would have tried to rape ANYONE, at least not sexually!

Cosmokid,

It is generally considered SEXIST, in the US, to claim that a woman was "asking for it". I guess that is kind of fair since western society brings up many females to dress, etc... to attract.

Steve

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derekwong28

13 years ago

The maid should also be presumed innocent unless proven guilty.

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Kay King

13 years ago

but what's the explanation for this

I don't know - and it's not my business to decide. It's up to the legal system but sometimes you don't get to the details if the basis of the charge is proven false.

I tend to just watch where such cases go - I don't try to prosecute or defend them as it's armchair lawyering or second guessing. It gets to cherry picking of some facts and ignoring others - and that accomplishes nothing.

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ThomM

13 years ago

Certainly her inconsistency and pattern of lying (mostly about issues unrelated to the alleged rape) will likely destroy her case, but what's the explanation for this -- rough sex?

"forensic details of the alleged assault which include damage to the ligaments to her shoulder, ripped stockings and photographed bruises to her vagina."

Very possible it could of been caused by her boyfriend with the idea of providing evidence to her claims.

But I wasn't there or part of the investigation, so what I say doesn't matter one bit.

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Chris Worner

13 years ago

@Steve

Cosmokid is of the same mindset as the author of the above linked article. Arguing with her and trying to have an intelligent debate on the subject of DSK is a waste of energy. Her mind is made up already on the subject, in spite of the facts.

@Cosmokid

Nice try but you are going to have to do better than that if you want to derail the conversation. Innocent till proven guilty.

Chris

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Kay King

13 years ago

I'll be interested to hear about some of his alleged victims in Europe who are finally feeling emboldened to prosecute after basically being shut up and shamed into silence in their native countries.

You assume a lot - I've never known a French woman to shut up when ordered...especially not a writer. Waited 8 years - and only spoke out AFTER the NY case falls apart. Convenient way to keep DSK off the ballot? Something doesn't make sense throughout this whole story.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

You assume a lot - I've never known a French woman to shut up when ordered...especially not a writer. Waited 8 years - and only spoke out AFTER the NY case falls apart. Convenient way to keep DSK off the ballot? Something doesn't make sense throughout this whole story.

SOME are saying that this was done to replace him with a woman in the IMF who apparently has a LOT of baggage.

And YEAH, the french ARE known to be OPEN about such things.

But GEE, he could have had ANY hooker he wanted. He has had 3 wives, and has like 4 homes. WHY would he risk EVERYTHING to rape a person who, as I understand it, likely nobody would have wanted to have sex with? A person, who is aparently the god daughter of his second wife, accused him of attempted rape. SHE in at least one picture WAS pretty. I couldn't see a rapist being like that. He would probably be injured and then turned into the cops. And she apparently was dissuaded by her mother, which doesn't make sense. If she is telling the truth, it sounds more like a guy that was impaired, VERY excited, and simply didn't want to take no for an answer, rather than someone that simply wanted to rape. It's STILL wrong, and STILL bad, but it is suspicious.

Steve

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Kurt

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

You assume a lot - I've never known a French woman to shut up when ordered...especially not a writer. Waited 8 years - and only spoke out AFTER the NY case falls apart. Convenient way to keep DSK off the ballot? Something doesn't make sense throughout this whole story.

From what I undestand, it was exactly the opposite. Her mother was a political ally of DSK's and it was Mom that urged her not to report the incident.

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seasoned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kurt

From what I undestand, it was exactly the opposite. Her mother was a political ally of DSK's and it was Mom that urged her not to report the incident.

There are TWO people I am aware of that claimed rape. The FIRST was a JERK that was on her OWN, and her mother,if she is even alive would have NO interest in any relevant party. It has NO relevance here. The story is that the scandal was done to get DSK OUT of the IMF, by someone that supported her.

The SECOND was one that supposedly happened like 5 years ago and THEN HER mother insisted that SHE not report it because she felt DSK was good for her party, of which HE was ALSO a member.

Steve
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Ruby Rynne

13 years ago

I have no doubt that DSK was framed, but I just wanted to butt in and say to Steve that rape has absolutely nothing to do with sexual desire and everything to do with violence. It's the domination aspect which appeals to the rapist, rape is almost never about 'not being able to stop', and almost always about the force aspect.

To OP: Chris, if I'd been the moderator and I'd seen your comment "Your envy of powerfull men, jealousy and hypocrisy knows no bounds." I reckon I'd have declined it too. Feminism isn't about hating men, it's usually only men who hate women that like to characterise it that way. I agree with the rest of your comment, however, and I think if you'd left off that last sentence it would probably have been approved (I would have approved it at any rate).

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ruby Rynne

I have no doubt that DSK was framed, but I just wanted to butt in and say to Steve that rape has absolutely nothing to do with sexual desire and everything to do with violence. It's the domination aspect which appeals to the rapist, rape is almost never about 'not being able to stop', and almost always about the force aspect.

Yeah, but he is certainly not powerless, and can act out his fantasies.

To OP: Chris, if I'd been the moderator and I'd seen your comment "Your envy of powerfull men, jealousy and hypocrisy knows no bounds." I reckon I'd have declined it too. Feminism isn't about hating men, it's usually only men who hate women that like to characterise it that way. I agree with the rest of your comment, however, and I think if you'd left off that last sentence it would probably have been approved (I would have approved it at any rate).

I agree with the IDEA of equal work equal pay, and that women should be given a chance, etc... If THAT were all feminism were, kay wouldn't have made the statements SHE made against it, and chris and I wouldn't have either. Heck, there IS a list of the richest women in the world, and the POOREST of them is far richer than I, or nearly anyone else on this board, will ever dare to imagine. And there is a list of the most powerful women in the world, and some of them are effectively running countries. It would be silly to say that women CAN'T save and can't run things. There ARE women that are against the idea of "feminism". HECK, I heard just a couple days ago about a woman that is heading up an organization called NEW, that is AGAINST NOW! She is PRO women, etc... She just doesn't like the stance NOW took.

Steve

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Chris Worner

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ruby Rynne

To OP: Chris, if I'd been the moderator and I'd seen your comment "Your envy of powerfull men, jealousy and hypocrisy knows no bounds." I reckon I'd have declined it too. Feminism isn't about hating men, it's usually only men who hate women that like to characterise it that way. I agree with the rest of your comment, however, and I think if you'd left off that last sentence it would probably have been approved (I would have approved it at any rate).

Ruby,

I hope you realize the contradiction of what you wrote above. If you don't support feminism you hate women, that is a bigoted attitude in itself.

Chris

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Ruby Rynne 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Worner

Ruby,

If you don't support feminism you hate women

Chris

I'm not sure what you're saying in my post is a contradiction, but I am interested in your statement (quoted above). Is this what you belive, or what you think feminists believe? What do you define feminism as being?
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Kierkegaard

13 years ago

Feminism is not about wanting equal rights for women it is a particular position one takes to view the world from. You can be a women who wants women to have equal rights with men but not agree with the feminist way of seeing the world.

For instance a women could look around her and say that men are not primary authority figures. Or she may disagree that it's possible to generalize women's experiences across history and culture.

She may only agree with original feminism and consider the original issues to be resolved and believes feminism to be redundant.

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