What Happens When the World's Economic Growth Engine Goes pop?

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Dow up 198 points yesterday. Why? People think the Europeans are going to sort out their problems. But are they?

Europe is the world’s biggest economy. It is menaced by bank and government debt defaults. It is growing old and has far more social spending obligations than it can afford. It is paralyzed by competing national governments and decentralized financial institutions. It can say ‘drop dead’ in 17 different languages.

And if Europe goes into a deep or prolonged economic slump, the rest of the world follows. Because Europe is a big customer, not only for Asia, but for America too.

The only way out of the debt problem for Europe is growth. Austerity alone won’t do it. Europe’s debts can only be serviced if the economy grows. Not that I`m counting on it. On the contrary, I am guessing it won’t happen.

Europe’s social spending can only continue if there is growth. Without growth, everything goes bad. Debts can’t be paid. Public workers can’t be paid. And neither the stock market or the bond market are worth nearly as much as people think they are.

Everybody assumed growth would continue — even if it were interrupted from time to time by recession. Every recession since the ’40s has been a relatively quick and relatively painless pause, not a major change of direction.

But now, something seems to have changed. Maybe it is a Great Recession, as some call it. Maybe it is a Great Correction, as I call it. And maybe the age of growth is over





What a helluva thing that would be if it were true. When people lent money to government and private borrowers they were betting on growth. When the government extended its promises of pensions and health care, it was counting on growth. Take away the growth and the credits and promises turn bad. And if they’re bad, the whole capital and government structure is in danger. Without growth almost all the world’s major banks will go broke. Without growth, every government in the developed world will default (or worse). Without growth, the world we have known falls apart.

But why would growth stop?

I don’t know. But it stopped in Japan. Today’s output in Japan is actually lower than it was in 1991. What happened? Banks were over-indebted. Corporations were over-extended. Real estate and housing were over-bought.

The Japanese government has been able to hold things together…but only by over-doing it itself. Now, it has such heavy debt that the home islands may sink under the weight of it. Stocks and property have lost about 2/3rds their value. There are no more jobs than there were 20 years ago…

And still no sign of growth.

Could Europe go the same way? Yes, it could.

How about America? Ditto, ditto and double ditto!

with 4,000 chain store shops closing in the first 5 months of 2011 with more and more looking shaky with weak demand. This week Barratts shoes announced they are in receivership after decades of trading in the high streets of the UK.
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by highhopes View Post

    Dow up 198 points yesterday. Why? People think the Europeans are going to sort out their problems. But are they?

    Europe is the world's biggest economy. It is menaced by bank and government debt defaults. It is growing old and has far more social spending obligations than it can afford. It is paralyzed by competing national governments and decentralized financial institutions. It can say 'drop dead' in 17 different languages.
    Actually, that is wrong! This isn't about Europe! Nobody is talking about Europe! And Europe speaks MORE than 17 languages! Even the EU, which is closer to what you are talking about speaks more languages, and isn't wholly in this problem, and certainly not to this degree. In any event, the EU DOES have some of the bigger buyers, but we have to wonder how much of europes economy the represent, and to what degree they are affected.

    And if Europe goes into a deep or prolonged economic slump, the rest of the world follows. Because Europe is a big customer, not only for Asia, but for America too.

    The only way out of the debt problem for Europe is growth. Austerity alone won't do it. Europe's debts can only be serviced if the economy grows. Not that I`m counting on it. On the contrary, I am guessing it won't happen.
    This is at least the second time the US brought them down in this way. 1929 and 2008.

    Europe's social spending can only continue if there is growth. Without growth, everything goes bad. Debts can't be paid. Public workers can't be paid. And neither the stock market or the bond market are worth nearly as much as people think they are.

    Everybody assumed growth would continue -- even if it were interrupted from time to time by recession. Every recession since the '40s has been a relatively quick and relatively painless pause, not a major change of direction.

    But now, something seems to have changed. Maybe it is a Great Recession, as some call it. Maybe it is a Great Correction, as I call it. And maybe the age of growth is over
    Recessions are ALWAYS relatively painless. This seems different becaue it isn't a recession. A recession is like the waves, in the ocean, receeding. Japan recently had the waves "receed" it is said that the recession was SO extreme, that the bay was practically ******EMPTY******! When the water reappeared, it practically destroyed the country! It destroyed a nuclear power plant, and people were comparing it to 3 mile island, etc....

    So WHY was THAT recession, of the water, different from all the others happening ALL THE TIME? Well, Japan has a special name for it, since it was caused by a violent earthquake. They call it a tsunami! HEY, it was the SAME THING!(Water was somehow displaced causing a backlash which hit the coast. The SAME thing happens in pools and bathtubs for the SAME reason.) Maybe some of the small waves WE get are from earthquakes! The intensity, and effect, were the differences.

    People played all these tricks, and keep avoiding the D word, but look at what has happened?

    What a helluva thing that would be if it were true. When people lent money to government and private borrowers they were betting on growth. When the government extended its promises of pensions and health care, it was counting on growth. Take away the growth and the credits and promises turn bad. And if they're bad, the whole capital and government structure is in danger. Without growth almost all the world's major banks will go broke. Without growth, every government in the developed world will default (or worse). Without growth, the world we have known falls apart.

    But why would growth stop?

    I don't know. But it stopped in Japan. Today's output in Japan is actually lower than it was in 1991. What happened? Banks were over-indebted. Corporations were over-extended. Real estate and housing were over-bought.

    The Japanese government has been able to hold things together...but only by over-doing it itself. Now, it has such heavy debt that the home islands may sink under the weight of it. Stocks and property have lost about 2/3rds their value. There are no more jobs than there were 20 years ago...

    And still no sign of growth.

    Could Europe go the same way? Yes, it could.

    How about America? Ditto, ditto and double ditto!

    with 4,000 chain store shops closing in the first 5 months of 2011 with more and more looking shaky with weak demand. This week Barratts shoes announced they are in receivership after decades of trading in the high streets of the UK.
    Countries often depend on OTHER countries! NOW, even CHINA is depending on others. The US certainly has since like the 70s. Countries often depend on the people. The people depend on companies which, in turn, depend on other people. SO, if the people are hurt, companies may be hurt. If they are hurt, OTHER people may be hurt. f THEY are hurt, countries may be hurt. THEY may affect OTHER countries. And DON'T FORGET! If russia depended ONLY on china, they STILL depend on the US and the rest of europe, because CHINA does! And with so many fiat currencies, if other countries can't depend on your goods and services, your currency could become WORTHLESS! And THAT will snowball even FASTER!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author highhopes
      Sure there are more than 17 European Countries, however, let`s focus on the Euro zone of which there are 27 member states but 17 are the number involved in the treaty in order to sort out the Euro crisis.

      The point has been missed, this leads me to conclude no research and / or understanding of the eurozone status has been missunderstood by you.
      It is a waste of time for me to answer your PERSONAL sway on the subject, as they reflect your opinions base onlack of research. ( or so it seems)
      As for the rest of your comments-----no comment as this is time wasting for me.

      I feel sorry for young families with mortgages and jobs. Their will be a huge shift in life styles soon...Americans and Brittons lead the plastic spending orgy of the last decade or two and will feel the legacy of this very soon....Storm clouds are gathering wheather you agree, like it or not.
      The western Countries have done the same for too long.
      Banks in the UK did not need to borrow money 10 years ago.....now look at the mess!
      THERE IS A VERY BUMPY RIDE AHEAD.


      All Countries are entwined in the global financial markets.



      Early on Friday morning, the Prime Minister used Britain's EU veto to block a full-scale treaty that would have created a closer fiscal union between the 17 members of the eurozone.


      The USA keep spending as if they have blinkers on!

      FORBES
      This brings us to a projected deficit of $1.1 trillion for the 2012 fiscal year, the size of the economy of Indonesia (the fifteenth largest economy). The projected 2012 deficit plus the deficits for the past three fiscal years, $ 5.4 trillion, is greater than the GDP of India or Japan, the third and fourth largest economies in the world, and at least two times the very much in the news debts of Italy and Greece combined.

      Daily telegraph 8th Dec
      The US markets have now closed for the day, losing value after the head of the European Central Bank poured cold water on hopes that the bank will boost its bond-buying to help contain the eurozone debt crisis.











      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Actually, that is wrong! This isn't about Europe! Nobody is talking about Europe! And Europe speaks MORE than 17 languages! Even the EU, which is closer to what you are talking about speaks more languages, and isn't wholly in this problem, and certainly not to this degree. In any event, the EU DOES have some of the bigger buyers, but we have to wonder how much of europes economy the represent, and to what degree they are affected.



      This is at least the second time the US brought them down in this way. 1929 and 2008.



      Recessions are ALWAYS relatively painless. This seems different becaue it isn't a recession. A recession is like the waves, in the ocean, receeding. Japan recently had the waves "receed" it is said that the recession was SO extreme, that the bay was practically ******EMPTY******! When the water reappeared, it practically destroyed the country! It destroyed a nuclear power plant, and people were comparing it to 3 mile island, etc....

      So WHY was THAT recession, of the water, different from all the others happening ALL THE TIME? Well, Japan has a special name for it, since it was caused by a violent earthquake. They call it a tsunami! HEY, it was the SAME THING!(Water was somehow displaced causing a backlash which hit the coast. The SAME thing happens in pools and bathtubs for the SAME reason.) Maybe some of the small waves WE get are from earthquakes! The intensity, and effect, were the differences.

      People played all these tricks, and keep avoiding the D word, but look at what has happened?



      Countries often depend on OTHER countries! NOW, even CHINA is depending on others. The US certainly has since like the 70s. Countries often depend on the people. The people depend on companies which, in turn, depend on other people. SO, if the people are hurt, companies may be hurt. If they are hurt, OTHER people may be hurt. f THEY are hurt, countries may be hurt. THEY may affect OTHER countries. And DON'T FORGET! If russia depended ONLY on china, they STILL depend on the US and the rest of europe, because CHINA does! And with so many fiat currencies, if other countries can't depend on your goods and services, your currency could become WORTHLESS! And THAT will snowball even FASTER!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author lcombs
    You're watching it happen now.
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    • Profile picture of the author PhaedraDragon
      I would be willing to bet, that when the bubble pops in Europe, the shock waves echoing around the world, will cause the Debt bubble, here in the USA, to pop as well. And when that bubble pops, if you ain't worth more than 5mil, you gonna be hurting.
      Of course, when that happens, I will "buy" an army to protect me, my family, and my city; not to mention my farm and ranch. I figure I could get combat trained troops for a pay rate of $500.00 a week, and add another $250.00 a week for their families.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by PhaedraDragon View Post

        I figure I could get combat trained troops for a pay rate of $500.00 a week, and add another $250.00 a week for their families.
        No you can't! Remember, money wlll be all but WORTHLESS! $500 used to be a FORTUNE! TODAY? That barely pays a SHORT days wages for someone like me. You can't even guarantee you can get a decent hotel for that, for a DAY.

        $500.00 a week is about $26K per year, IF you pay for the whole year, including holidays.

        And all this is assuming the infrastructure is in place, etc... It is REALLY hard to know where you will be! EVEN if you live off the land, and depend on NO human, you may find a lot of new competitors when things get tough, and find that things aren't NEARLY so easy.

        Don't forget the first horesman of the apocalypse, in the Christian Bible. He may only have said ONE statement, but it was scary as all hell, LITERALLY! It set the tone for the whole chapter. You have to think a moment to realize the implications. The statement?

        A WEEKS wages for a day of grain! Think about that! The meals that you would eat in a typical day costing a WEEKS salary! And the POOR think they have it tough?

        IMAGINE, that ONE meal has to be spread over a week, and you will have NOTHING left for faclities, shelter, transportation, etc...

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    highhopes,

    I have been saying that ALL ALONG! I have merely hinted at some things by saying ICSM or the like, because too many don't like the message. I know JUST enough about such things to know that NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING!

    Will LAND save you? NO!

    Will CROPS save you? Well, they may take your land, etc...

    Will MONEY save you? Most money is driven by a PROMISE! A promise NEVER called. OK, over 80 or so years ago, the promise was VERY strong and true in the US, and easy to call, and some DID call it. about 80 years ago, the US said they would NEVER honor that promise in that way again! ALL COUNTRIES are starting to say that their promise is NO GOOD! It really DOES simply come down to a PROMISE! THAT is why the markets are reacting to a single rumor like this!

    Can "securities" help you? Well, the US decided to show the planet how it can reneg on a promise on a MASSIVE scale, even if it wasn't the ENTIRE US. Can anyone say GM? EVERY promise, except to the unions, ******BROKEN******!

    Can swiss bank accounts help? Broken a couple decades ago, so NO!

    Can precious metals help? Well, the standard methods of tracking value will dissappear, and WHO will be around to buy, and WHY?

    With all this evidence, how can ANYONE REALLY feel safe.

    So WHAT was different with 1929-1933? The US was VERY productive! It did NOT reneg on stocks! In fact, they did the OPPOSITE! They made it BETTER! The US STOLE precious metals! The currency was basically WORTHLESS, and they needed something TANGIBLE. They didn't steal property, or stocks, or bonds, like they recently did, and the old swiss banking laws were STILL in effect.

    OH, and there was NO glass steagle, which is one reason for the problem we had and have. RIP old GS(1933-1999). 66 years! My insurer(the one that is lucky I use them because they went t court to reneg on their promise, and they DID reneg) is now ALSO a BANK! THEY CLAIM that the money is kept SEPARATE! But WHAT do I have THERE? A PROMISE! NOT EVEN a promise, a mere CLAIM! GS said such behaviour is ILLEGAL! Don't worry about a bank run though! It is strictly an ONLINE bank! Oh THAT makes me feel better!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author highhopes
      I have to agree there Steve....we have been used to the developed western world lifestyle whereas the so called third world, undeveloped Countries have no food, disease, etc....wait till it happens in the west, then what?


      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      highhopes,

      I have been saying that ALL ALONG! I have merely hinted at some things by saying ICSM or the like, because too many don't like the message. I know JUST enough about such things to know that NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING!

      Will LAND save you? NO!

      Will CROPS save you? Well, they may take your land, etc...

      Will MONEY save you? Most money is driven by a PROMISE! A promise NEVER called. OK, over 80 or so years ago, the promise was VERY strong and true in the US, and easy to call, and some DID call it. about 80 years ago, the US said they would NEVER honor that promise in that way again! ALL COUNTRIES are starting to say that their promise is NO GOOD! It really DOES simply come down to a PROMISE! THAT is why the markets are reacting to a single rumor like this!

      Can "securities" help you? Well, the US decided to show the planet how it can reneg on a promise on a MASSIVE scale, even if it wasn't the ENTIRE US. Can anyone say GM? EVERY promise, except to the unions, ******BROKEN******!

      Can swiss bank accounts help? Broken a couple decades ago, so NO!

      Can precious metals help? Well, the standard methods of tracking value will dissappear, and WHO will be around to buy, and WHY?

      With all this evidence, how can ANYONE REALLY feel safe.

      So WHAT was different with 1929-1933? The US was VERY productive! It did NOT reneg on stocks! In fact, they did the OPPOSITE! They made it BETTER! The US STOLE precious metals! The currency was basically WORTHLESS, and they needed something TANGIBLE. They didn't steal property, or stocks, or bonds, like they recently did, and the old swiss banking laws were STILL in effect.

      OH, and there was NO glass steagle, which is one reason for the problem we had and have. RIP old GS(1933-1999). 66 years! My insurer(the one that is lucky I use them because they went t court to reneg on their promise, and they DID reneg) is now ALSO a BANK! THEY CLAIM that the money is kept SEPARATE! But WHAT do I have THERE? A PROMISE! NOT EVEN a promise, a mere CLAIM! GS said such behaviour is ILLEGAL! Don't worry about a bank run though! It is strictly an ONLINE bank! Oh THAT makes me feel better!

      Steve
      Signature

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      http://wwwtheearninghub.com

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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    According to news reports, the Europeans were handling their problems - even without the Brits helping out.

    France & Germany will lead the Europeans out of their mess.

    No one said it's going to be pretty.

    IMHO...

    The stimulus prevented the U.S. from descending into great depression #2.

    The U.S. recovery is slow and ugly but the U.S. has already seen the worst.

    And as long as certain elements don't gain control of the any of the legislative or executive branches of the U.S. gov in the 2012 elections...

    ... the recovery will continue in a slow and torturous manner.

    All The Best!!



    TL
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      France & Germany will lead the Europeans out of their mess.
      No, they won't; the French and Germans are as clueless as everyone else about what to do.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

        No, they won't; the French and Germans are as clueless as everyone else about what to do.

        We'll see.


        TL
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    • Profile picture of the author clint48
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      According to news reports, the Europeans were handling their problems - even without the Brits helping out.



      The U.S. recovery is slow and ugly but the U.S. has already seen the worst.



      TL
      This is not true! As long as our debt continues to rise we are not recovering and the worst is not over yet. I do agree with you that a lot will depend on the coming election.

      Clint
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by clint48 View Post

        This is not true! As long as our debt continues to rise we are not recovering and the worst is not over yet. I do agree with you that a lot will depend on the coming election.

        Clint
        You're right. ANY FAMILY could EASILY borrow money like crazy, and look filthy rich for a while. But WHAT happens LATER? OFTEN a crash at LEAST equal to the rise. And EVERYONE here has gotten SOMETHING of value from others, even if food and shelte from your parents. Does that help you NOW? NOPE!

        Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by clint48 View Post

        This is not true! As long as our debt continues to rise we are not recovering and the worst is not over yet. I do agree with you that a lot will depend on the coming election.

        Clint

        You my friends have brought into the meme that the national debt is our #1 problem.

        IMHO it is not.

        How about jobs???

        Missing out on 10-15 million jobs ( that we had before the recession hit ) is our #1 prob.

        IMHO, it's better for us to concentrate on growing the economy and at the same time to wind the debt down in a responsible manner.

        Austerity measures will only make things worse.

        First, we must tackle the yearly budget deficit and then the national debt will begin to subside and that's not going to happen until more jobs are generated by this economy and that's going to take some time and some initiatives.


        And no, IMHO, we have not done as much as possible to jump start the economy in any serious way yet - thanks to some folks on the hill and their friends on the other side of the isle.


        All The Best!!

        TL
        Signature

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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          You my friends have brought into the meme that the national debt is our #1 problem.

          IMHO it is not.

          How about jobs???

          Missing out on 10-15 million jobs ( that we had before the recession hit ) is our #1 prob.

          IMHO, it's better for us to concentrate on growing the economy and at the same time to wind the debt down in a responsible manner.

          Austerity measures will only make things worse.

          First, we must tackle the yearly budget deficit and then the national debt will begin to subside and that's not going to happen until more jobs are generated by this economy and that's going to take some time and some initiatives.


          And no, IMHO, we have not done as much as possible to jump start the economy in any serious way yet - thanks to some folks on the hill and their friends on the other side of the isle.


          All The Best!!

          TL
          If money is SO worthless, I don't know why JOBS are so important but, oh well... There are probably LOTS of places will to let you sell on commission, India could use some people that understand english! So OBVIOUSLY, if money isn't a problem, jobs OBVIOUSLY aren't! HELL, I would be HAPPY to hire 1000 people at $.01/hour! PROBLEM SOLVED! 1000 jobs created!

          MY problem is that I don't think anyone smart enough to do the work is dumb enough to do the work for $.01/hour. A couple hundred years ago, that was a lot of money! About 60 years ago, a days wages would be almost enough for about 2 cokes. 30 years ago, 3 days wages would buy a coke! TODAY? Well, you would have to pay about 19 days salary.

          HEY, I could maybe line up hundreds of thousands of dollars. Maybe even MILLIONS! But it would be hard to keep going. YOU might be able to do as well. Maybe even better. WHO KNOWS? Some POOR people obviously could. WHY DON'T YOU? Is it for the same reason I don'T? What ever DID happen to those poor people. OH YEAH!!!!! THAT'S RIGHT!!!! 2008 the bottom kind of fell out after so many went under water. THAT is why FNMA, GNMA, and FHLMC were hurt! BTW point of fact, I DO spend tens of thousands a month on credit, but I get it reimbursed, and make sure I can handle all the debt.

          I wonder... HOW much do you think a coke will cost in 2020?

          BTW *****NOBODY***** in the government, ANYWHERE, has even MENTIONED what could EASILY be changed to make direct change almost overnight. And you definitely don't agree with the secondary fixes that could only help.

          It is ironic that I once agreed with something almost everyone on your side wanted AND, now that they failed, they rarely even MENTION that. CURIOUS!

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            If money is SO worthless, I don't know why JOBS are so important but, oh well... There are probably LOTS of places will to let you sell on commission, India could use some people that understand english! So OBVIOUSLY, if money isn't a problem, jobs OBVIOUSLY aren't! HELL, I would be HAPPY to hire 1000 people at $.01/hour! PROBLEM SOLVED! 1000 jobs created!

            MY problem is that I don't think anyone smart enough to do the work is dumb enough to do the work for $.01/hour. A couple hundred years ago, that was a lot of money! About 60 years ago, a days wages would be almost enough for about 2 cokes. 30 years ago, 3 days wages would buy a coke! TODAY? Well, you would have to pay about 19 days salary.

            HEY, I could maybe line up hundreds of thousands of dollars. Maybe even MILLIONS! But it would be hard to keep going. YOU might be able to do as well. Maybe even better. WHO KNOWS? Some POOR people obviously could. WHY DON'T YOU? Is it for the same reason I don'T? What ever DID happen to those poor people. OH YEAH!!!!! THAT'S RIGHT!!!! 2008 the bottom kind of fell out after so many went under water. THAT is why FNMA, GNMA, and FHLMC were hurt! BTW point of fact, I DO spend tens of thousands a month on credit, but I get it reimbursed, and make sure I can handle all the debt.

            I wonder... HOW much do you think a coke will cost in 2020?

            BTW *****NOBODY***** in the government, ANYWHERE, has even MENTIONED what could EASILY be changed to make direct change almost overnight. And you definitely don't agree with the secondary fixes that could only help.

            It is ironic that I once agreed with something almost everyone on your side wanted AND, now that they failed, they rarely even MENTION that. CURIOUS!

            Steve
            If you're saying the debt sit will be responsible for prices going ballistic I disagree - maybe 10 years from now but not in the short term.


            The best way to address our long term debt prob is by growing the economy asap.


            You said...

            It is ironic that I once agreed with something almost everyone on your side wanted AND, now that they failed, they rarely even MENTION that. CURIOUS!


            I say...

            ... please enlighten us, oh wise one, what could it possibly be?

            Can you mention it here in this thread?

            If not please PM me.

            I'd really love to know.

            All The Best!!

            TL
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    • Profile picture of the author rondo
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      France & Germany will lead the Europeans out of their mess.
      How? It's reported that the big 3 French banks are together 3x times bigger than French GDP. And Germany's Deutsche Bank is reported to be levered 60:1.

      Good luck bailing them out.
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  • 1971 - Tricky Dick
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  • Profile picture of the author theory expert
    Banned
    and I have no doubt it will go pop...it is not of matter of will it, it is a matter of when.

    I am not sure how deep this hole going to go, deep enough that even gold will be useless? Bartering for water and food maybe? Maybe you can't predict everything and in this case we have to live with the uncertainty.

    Better buy that new bentley before it's too too late.
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  • Profile picture of the author iidesu
    now the world's growth engine is China, and we do see signs of it heading toward its long-deserved exit.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Rondo,

    To be fair, they ARE international banks, and have assets in several currencies, but GOOD POINT!

    Steve
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  • Europe is the world's greatest economy, an economic engine as stated. Currently it is struggling to pull up its other E.U. members, such as Greece, which is struggling with its economy, from collapsing. E.U. understands that their single member's falling can trigger events which will sink the whole of Europe economically. Remember how Lehman Brother's fall led into subsequent collapse of other firms worldwide. Such an event can recur, beginning with a single European country and spreading throughout the continent. Indeed, an event such as this taking place in Europe will send the whole world into an abyss of a great recession. We hope E.U. will make it. Otherwise, the world is doomed.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Only time will tell how this situation will shake out.

    We'll monitor the situation.



    TL
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    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    OK, at the risk of getting banned, almost everyone on your side, including the U*, and I agreed that NAFTA and GATT were bad ideas. They basically allowed other countries to deal with the US as if they were in the US. ALL the benefits of both sides. My VW was "hecho in mexico". PROBABLY because of nafta. That is a LOT of jobs and YES, TAXES, to lose! OH, and many of those taxes are CORPORATE taxes! HEY, "my side" politicians were for them but I don't let that guide me.

    NOT to start a political war or discussion.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      OK, at the risk of getting banned, almost everyone on your side, including the U*, and I agreed that NAFTA and GATT were bad ideas. They basically allowed other countries to deal with the US as if they were in the US. ALL the benefits of both sides. My VW was "hecho in mexico". PROBABLY because of nafta. That is a LOT of jobs and YES, TAXES, to lose! OH, and many of those taxes are CORPORATE taxes! HEY, "my side" politicians were for them but I don't let that guide me.

      NOT to start a political war or discussion.

      Steve

      Even though the prez was a democrat when Nafta was passed I thought it enjoyed lots of bi-partisian support.

      And yes, IMHO, it was a bad idea then and has only helped 200-300 multi-national corporations and no one else - IMHO.

      All The Best!!

      TL
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        I'm curious about the EU.
        Were the countries that are in it in this much financial trouble before the EU?
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        • Profile picture of the author Thomas
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          I'm curious about the EU. Were the countries that are in it in this much financial trouble before the EU?
          The EU has been around in one form or another for about 50 years. The current financial problems in Europe don't really arise from the EU itself (though it certainly doesn't help) but, rather, the Euro (the common currency) which, IMO was possibly the worst idea since <insert the worst idea you can think of here>.

          If you compare it to another "common currency": the US dollar, you'll see why. If the US dollar worked like the Euro was supposed to, all 50 US states would use it, and a New York dollar could be spent in Texas or Florida just as easily as in New York BUT the US Federal Government wouldn't exist and all 50 states would operate independent economic and taxation policies, with no heed paid to how those policies would affect the other states AND, to make things even worse, the currency would be dominated by California (as the largest economy), who would continually "persuade" the controlling central bank to make sure interest rates suited the Californian economy above all else, and who would form an axis with another large state (say, Texas) to continually berate the other states for not asking how high everytime it tells them to jump.

          You don't have to imagine what kind of a mess that would be because you can see it happening in the Eurozone right now, but it is made even worse by the fact that the European states don't really share much in the way of common language or culture and, historically, have gone to war against each other over much less.

          And the problem (for the world) is that, while the EU, as a whole, accounts for 21% of the global economy, the Eurozone, by itself, accounts for 15%, a big enough chunk to still make everyone catch a cold when it sneezes (or catches severe bronchial pneumonia ).

          Tommy.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

            The EU has been around in one form or another for about 50 years. The current financial problems in Europe don't really arise from the EU itself (though it certainly doesn't help) but, rather, the Euro (the common currency) which, IMO was possibly the worst idea since <insert the worst idea you can think of here>.
            I think he meant with respect to the Euro. The answer is NO! Some were stronger, and some were weaker, BUT....Originally some were DENIED admittance because they were TOO weak and irresponsible! I was SHOCKED when I found some of them were let in eventually! It is no surprise that they are among those in real trouble.

            If you compare it to another "common currency": the US dollar, you'll see why. If the US dollar worked like the Euro was supposed to, all 50 US states would use it, and a New York dollar could be spent in Texas or Florida just as easily as in New York BUT the US Federal Government wouldn't exist and all 50 states would operate independent economic and taxation policies, with no heed paid to how those policies would affect the other states AND, to make things even worse, the currency would be dominated by California (as the largest economy), who would continually "persuade" the controlling central bank to make sure interest rates suited the Californian economy above all else, and who would form an axis with another large state (say, Texas) to continually berate the other states for not asking how high everytime it tells them to jump.
            You effectively described the US! In europe, they may refer to the government as the state. Well, in the US, EVERY state has its own taxes. Even the tax free states have SOME taxes. A state senator once went to the next state for a beer run! It was a long drive, but HEY, it was a government vehicle! WHY risk his job, etc... to buy booze THERE? It was tax free. And in a recent bill, people were making all sorts of jokes about how it was packed with things just to get SOME states to vote for it.

            In the US, we have the federal government. YOU have a federal government ALSO, as far as the world is concerned. It just rotates, and is called the EU magistrate, or some such. They dictate common law, bans, members, etc... Denmark, for example, couldn't produce/ship polse. The EU OUTLAWED IT! The danes had to get an exception! BTW WHY was it outlawed? Danish/American slang for it is Hotdog! It was banned in the US ALSO, for the SAME reason! RED DYE #2! The Americans got rid of the dye. For whatever reason, the Danes didn't want to.

            In the US, the state governments add MORE taxes, laws, and rules that cover what the constitution and federal government missed. In the EU, the old country/state governments add MORE taxes, laws, and rules that cover what the EU charter and EU magistrate missed.
            So denmarks laws are a bit different from germany's, just like california's laws are a bit different from arizona's.

            Then again, we have the SAME troubles you do, and the world catches a cold when WE sneeze.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
              I think he meant with respect to the Euro
              No Steve I ment the Union.
              Though I think I have a pretty good grip on what is going on in the US, I really know nothing about the EU, Euro, or what is happening there and why.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        Even though the prez was a democrat when Nafta was passed I thought it enjoyed lots of bi-partisian support.

        And yes, IMHO, it was a bad idea then and has only helped 200-300 multi-national corporations and no one else - IMHO.

        All The Best!!

        TL
        It did...Every ex US president at the time and every ex-secretary of state at the time supported NAFTA.

        You have to be pretty naive to think Mexico is the cause of the US losing jobs. If we were losing so many jobs there, why have their been so many Mexicans coming to the US to find a job? The truth is, we've lost jobs to Asia, not Mexico or Canada.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          It did...Every ex US president at the time and every ex-secretary of state at the time supported NAFTA.

          You have to be pretty naive to think Mexico is the cause of the US losing jobs. If we were losing so many jobs there, why have their been so many Mexicans coming to the US to find a job? The truth is, we've lost jobs to Asia, not Mexico or Canada.
          Well, China DID get a similar deal. And just because an industry moves over to mexico doesn't mean that wages will go up, or the whole country is employed. And it didn't hurt my industry much at all.

          I WILL say that, had china NOT gotten a deal, they could have shipped through mexico, and had a similar benefit.

          But china is a bad example, since some of the wages are ABSURDLY low, and may make mexicans look RICH. So the shipping isn't as meaningful.

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author chrislangley
    It certainly looks bleak, definitely need some light at the end of this bleak tunnel
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