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"Periods should always be inside quotation marks."

by Lucian Lada
26 replies
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Do they refer to multiple periods? like these : "..."
So of these two examples, the second one is correct only?

a) I enjoy dreaming ...
b) Someone once said to me: "I enjoy dreaming ..."

Then they say there is never a space before a comma or a period, but is there one before three periods?
  • Profile picture of the author Thomas
    Originally Posted by canyon View Post

    Re: "Periods should always be inside quotation marks."
    Not so in this part of the world; where the full stop (or period, as you say) is placed depends on whether it belongs to the quotation, or the sentence containing the quotation.

    However, the presence of ellipses shouldn't change anything, regardless of what convention you are adhering to.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
      Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

      Not so in this part of the world;
      I should have been more explicit: this is extracted from EZA's guidelines.

      What I don't understand is why periods should always be inside quotations?
      And just to be clear: periods = three periods, like this: ..., right ?
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by canyon View Post

        I should have been more explicit: this is extracted from EZA's guidelines.

        What I don't understand is why periods should always be inside quotations?
        And just to be clear: periods = three periods, like this: ..., right ?
        There's your answer . . . since these guidelines are from EZA, you should adhere to their rules when writing for them. So the period always goes inside the quotes. If the "periods" (ellipsis) is included with the text being quoted, then it should also be inside the quotation marks, IMO.

        EZA is probably just creating a standard that is easy for everyone to follow, rather than trying to teach when the period should be inside and when it should be outside, because there are times it should technically be outside the quotes.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Yeah, the ... is called an ellipses and says ONLY that something is missing. It should generally be preceded by a space, unless it shows something is missing from the string part that immediately precedes it. It is pretty much DEVOID of any other rules. By its nature, MOST ellipses will be in quotes, but they can be anywhere.

    A document could be talking about cases, media, etc.... I don't know WHERE I got the habit for using ellipses right after etc. It IS redundant at best. That illustrates a point though: Et cetera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... could be used in place of etc.

    There are a LOT of cases where even an ORIGINAL text won't try to list everything, as it may not even be possible. In legal texts, they have learned their lesson and may list out all applicable devices they can, and then describe the functionality they prohibit to try to cover everything else. It is impractical to do that everywhere especially since it is usually obvious.

    ALL sentences should end with periods. If a quote is a sentence, THEN the period, at least for that, should be in quotes. Frankly, I put commas DIRECTLY after a word, and like to put a space after it. I think that is personal preference though.

    I think they just latched on to one case, and mentioned that. Ask 50 people and you may get fifty answers. It sounds like thomas and I agree here, and I think you probably thought the same, since you asked the question.

    I am from the US, and Thomas is from Ireland. I haven't heard anything different from British people either, as far as I recall. I mention that only because I have been at places where americans and british people were at odds with other stuff that DOES vary between dialects, etc...

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
    Originally Posted by canyon View Post

    Do they refer to multiple periods? like these : "..."
    So of these two examples, the second one is correct only?

    a) I enjoy dreaming ...
    b) Someone once said to me: "I enjoy dreaming ..."

    Then they say there is never a space before a comma or a period, but is there one before three periods?
    I'd say both are incorrect.

    There shouldn't be spaces in either.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW an ellipses is called an ellipses, and NOT a period! In fact SOME wordprocessors will subscript ... automatically! WHY? Because they know it is an elipses, distinct from a period, and subscripting looks nicer.

    The characters 44 mean something. It is fortyfour, (4*10)+4. If the second one is subscripted, it may mean the 4th number in a series. If superscripted, it means 4*4*4*4 =256. An ellipses is the same thing. If you mean ellipses, say ellipses!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      BTW an ellipses is called an ellipses, and NOT a period! If you mean ellipses, say ellipses!
      I've said periods, not period.
      Also English is not my first language so you see why my confusion.

      Anyway, here is a larger excerpt from EZA guidelines:
      Periods should always be inside quotation marks. Ellipses (...) must be three dots. There is never a space before a period or before a comma.
      As you can see, it does say "ellipses", but they are dots caught between parentheses, however periods are just "free" dots.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW, since I might be called on it, I NEVER put a period right after an arbitrary string I am explaining(like a username or password), or a URL. WHY? In the first case, to make it clear to the reader EXACTLY what I mean! In the second case maybe the same also, but so some stupid board, like this, won't figure it is part of the URL and hyperlink the wrong URL. Sometimes clarity is better than perfection. 8-(

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    if you mean a full stop why not just say so.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by canyon View Post

    Do they refer to multiple periods? like these : "..."
    So of these two examples, the second one is correct only?

    a) I enjoy dreaming ...
    b) Someone once said to me: "I enjoy dreaming ..."

    Then they say there is never a space before a comma or a period, but is there one before three periods?
    Yes, there is.

    They're not really "periods", per se. The three of them are collectively being used to signify something different. Three dots, like that, used to denote pauses and/or incompleteness, are a different punctuation-mark from the period.

    They should always be preceded by a space. In publishing and editing, this isn't simply a matter of "preference" or "house style". And that applies for Ezine Articles, too.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    American standard usage always puts periods inside quotation marks. Life is easier in America.
    That's probalby correct 99.9% of the time. But there are times when I'm fairly sure it shouldn't be, for example:

    Your password is "redraider".

    If you put the period inside the quotes it becomes part of the password.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Coutts
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      That's probalby correct 99.9% of the time. But there are times when I'm fairly sure it shouldn't be, for example:

      Your password is "redraider".

      If you put the period inside the quotes it becomes part of the password.
      You're right. There are times when using sensible judgement works best. If slavishly following rules leads to someone using a password (as in this example) that is incorrect, then communicate so that everything is crystal clear and no mistakes can be made.

      John.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Coutts
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Sell that to an editor.

        It would be fun to watch.
        OK, then find a way to communicate effectively that still stays within the rules!
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Sell that to an editor.

        It would be fun to watch.
        I don't mean to be difficult, but according to the Chicago Manual of Style there are exceptions mentioned here.

        Unfortunately, you have to be a member to see what the are, and I'm not about to join to find out.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Coutts
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          I don't mean to be difficult, but according to the Chicago Manual of Style there are exceptions mentioned here.

          Unfortunately, you have to be a member to see what the are, and I'm not about to join to find out.
          It mentions, "Unless you're teaching in the U.K., the punctuation goes inside the quotation marks". Well, I'm from the UK.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

          I have never written for any American publication that would not hand you your head if you put periods outside of quotation marks. I have always taught my students to always put periods inside of quotation marks and would strongly advise anyone writing for American publications to do the same.
          I'm not really arguing for the practice, though it may seem like it. I let my editor edit and I write - mostly. I like that arrangement . . . that way I don't have to be bothered by details.

          I learned long ago that logic doesn't always prevail. There are times that logically the period should go outside the quotation marks, in my mind at least, but maybe I'm just not as logical as the rule makers. Of course, we all know how the rule makers are never wrong. :rolleyes:

          By the way, editors can be overruled. As an author, I've presented my case to the publisher before, who sided with me over the editor. What I argued for might not have been the correct "style" according to somebody else's rules, but my logic prevailed. Mainly because the editor didn't have anything logical to argue, other than there being a rule.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
    Hmm, I think I'm blind.

    The answer is in the thread's title.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by canyon View Post

      Hmm, I think I'm blind.

      The answer is in the thread's title.
      The conversation was probably led astray because you referred to an ellipsis as periods. That left it a bit open to interpretation. I answered your question about the ellipsis in post 9.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    From the first link Ken provided:

    Whenever we have to use a question mark or an exclamation point with a sentence that ends in a quotation, we follow the dictates of logic in determining where the question mark or exclamation point goes. If it is part of the quotation itself, we put it inside the quotation marks, and if it governs the sentence as a whole but not the material being quoted, we put it outside the quotation marks.



    ~Have you read the assigned short story, "Flowering Judas"?



    ~No, but I did finally get around to reading last week's assignment, "Where Are They Now?"



    When it comes to commas and periods, though, logic doesn't enter into the equation, at least not in the United States. Universal American usage places commas and periods inside the quotation marks, regardless of logic.



    ~"Diane," she said, "put the book down and go outside for a little while."



    ~"I will in a minute," she replied, "as soon as I finish this chapter."



    This rule applies even when the unit enclosed at the end of the sentence is just a single word rather than an actual quotation:



    ~To get to the next page, just press the little button marked "Enter."



    The only exception is when that last little item enclosed in quotation marks is just a letter or a number, in which case the period or comma will go outside the closing quotation marks:



    ~The buried treasure was marked on the map with a large "X".



    ~The only grade that will satisfy her is an "A".



    ~On this scale, the highest ranking is a "1", not a "10".
    Gee, SORRY! #1 says I am right, and #3 is NOT an exception if #1 is right! #2 says I am wrong ONLY because it happens to be the united states. Yeah, people have sometimes edited things I have said, like moving sentences, or removing commas, and made a 100% true paragraph into a confusing fantasy. Sometimes you should go for function over form.

    Sometimes I will put a comma before an "and" to make it clear that they are not one item. Today, for example, if you wanted someone to go to the store and get peanut butter and jelly, they might actually get the two combined in one jar. Granted, that is a poor example since USUALLY they may assume they are separate, but it is possible.

    Sorry if that bugs anyone. (Picture of horrible but funny insect infestation needed! )

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Lucian Lada
    Guys, I appreciate taking the time to clear this through but ... it's just a dot!
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by canyon View Post

      Guys, I appreciate taking the time to clear this through but ... it's just a dot!
      I was on one forum where they had a longer thread than this that was on whether it should be "an hotel", or "a hotel". I believe all British, and VERY old Americans(Ones that graduated highschool like before 1960) said "an hotel". Other Americans said "a hotel".

      MAN! A and AN are purely PHONETIC devices!

      AN animal
      A lobster
      AN ardvark
      A building
      A car
      AN aroma
      AN efficient clerk
      AN intern

      Basically, if the noun, or first adjective preceding it has a vowel sound, it is AN! OTHERWISE, it is A! So WHO was right? The brits, or the yanks? They BOTH were! HOW is that possible?

      AMERICAN "A HOTEL" is pronounced "A HOTEL"!
      BRITISH "AN HOTEL" is often pronounced "AN 'OTEL". The H is effectively DROPPED! YEAH, we can get back into the NICHE thread on this one. C'est la vie!

      Purdue OWL: How to Use Articles (a/an/the)

      Indefinite Articles: a and an

      "A" and "an" signal that the noun modified is indefinite, referring to any member of a group. For example:

      "My daughter really wants a dog for Christmas." This refers to any dog. We don't know which dog because we haven't found the dog yet.
      "Somebody call a policeman!" This refers to any policeman. We don't need a specific policeman; we need any policeman who is available.
      "When I was at the zoo, I saw an elephant!" Here, we're talking about a single, non-specific thing, in this case an elephant. There are probably several elephants at the zoo, but there's only one we're talking about here.
      Remember, using a or an depends on the sound that begins the next word. So...

      a + singular noun beginning with a consonant: a boy; a car; a bike; a zoo; a dog
      an + singular noun beginning with a vowel: an elephant; an egg; an apple; an idiot; an orphan
      a + singular noun beginning with a consonant sound: a user (sounds like 'yoo-zer,' i.e. begins with a consonant 'y' sound, so 'a' is used); a university; a unicycle
      an + nouns starting with silent "h": an hour
      a + nouns starting with a pronounced "h": a horse
      In some cases where "h" is pronounced, such as "historical," you can use an. However, a is more commonly used and preferred.
      A historical event is worth recording.
      Remember that these rules also apply when you use acronyms:

      Introductory Composition at Purdue (ICaP) handles first-year writing at the University. Therefore, an ICaP memo generally discusses issues concerning English 106 instructors.
      Another case where this rule applies is when acronyms start with consonant letters but have vowel sounds:

      An MSDS (material safety data sheet) was used to record the data. An SPCC plan (Spill Prevention Control and Countermeasures plan) will help us prepare for the worst.
      If the noun is modified by an adjective, the choice between a and an depends on the initial sound of the adjective that immediately follows the article:

      a broken egg
      an unusual problem
      a European country (sounds like 'yer-o-pi-an,' i.e. begins with consonant 'y' sound)
      Remember, too, that in English, the indefinite articles are used to indicate membership in a group:

      I am a teacher. (I am a member of a large group known as teachers.)
      Brian is an Irishman. (Brian is a member of the people known as Irish.)
      Seiko is a practicing Buddhist. (Seiko is a member of the group of people known as Buddhists.)
      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by canyon View Post

      Guys, I appreciate taking the time to clear this through but ... it's just a dot!
      The conversation has evolved beyond your original post, even though the subject matter is much the same. Threads happen!
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW Canyon,

    You never said what your native language is. The French, for example, are known as being FAR more particular about the use of their language. Amercans and brits can't hold a CANDLE to THEM!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well, even ENGLISH is said to be a latin language. Obviously a LOT of it has little resemblance, outside of the basic alphabet.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author blogfreakz
    lol it's a different case scenario when you put it in the programming language or is it the same sentence ...
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by blogfreakz View Post

      lol it's a different case scenario when you put it in the programming language or is it the same sentence ...
      There MAY be others, but I think the only programming language, that I know, that has a period is COBOL. It works the SAME way that *I* write, and apparently the same as Brits do! If you want to quote something with a period, the period goes INSIDE the quotes. The quoted item CAN'T be wrong because, if it is, at the VERY least, the period won't appear as it should. REGARDLESS of that, a period is required at the end of the sentence(what other languages call a line). AGAIN, it CAN'T be wrong or the program will run erratically, if it even compiles.

      Then again, MOST other languages work the same way on MOST lines. Most simply use a semicolon. HECK, some, like lisp, require you to put the whole statement in parentheses, and each statement often becomes part of the one before it.

      Steve
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