racist gesture

I choose my battles. Defending someone who is being a provocative a-hole and makes a gesture that can be construed as racist is not a battle I would choose.

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

12 years ago

It's a catch-22...they just say it was a "racist gesture", they don't explain or show what it was - how can you make a determination?

Some hand gestures actually mean very different things in different countries...

Even exposing the soles of your shoes to someone is considered very offensive in some cultures...

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seasoned

12 years ago

There is an expression that in the US means "That is OK with me! GREAT! I AGREE:" In italy, it means "You are a worthless bum! A NOTHING! GET LOST!".

I am not aware of ANY racist gesture in the US.

BTW there is ANOTHER sign that in the US means about what the other one means in the US. It is now rumored that in ancient rome it meant "Slit the guys throat!".

Steve

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Paul Myers 12 years ago

Steve,

I am not aware of ANY racist gesture in the US.

I can think of one offhand that would be easily and sensibly considered racist, and actively threatening, in parts of this country. There are probably others, but the existence of one is enough to make me believe it's not completely out of the question.

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seasoned

12 years ago

BTW displaying some colors in China is ***BAD*** As I recall, the same is true of arab countries. Showing the soles of your shoes in arab countries is BAD! A woman that shows skin in arab countries can be in trouble.

Let's face it! There are NO consistent symbols/language in countries!

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

12 years ago

Queue up obligatory anti PC rants from usual suspects...

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whateverpedia 12 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Queue up obligatory anti PC rants from usual suspects...

Followed by quick closing/deletion of thread by mods.
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ThomM

12 years ago

I knew you could get arrested for making certain gestures in public.
As for a racial gesture, I guess I would have to be there for that one.
Not saying they don't exist, I just can't think of any at the moment.

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kenmichaels

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I knew you could get arrested for making certain gestures in public.

I must just be naive, because i did not even know that...

edit-

actually i guess i just assumed gestures fell under the "freedom of speech" area

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seasoned

12 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I must just be naive, because i did not even know that...

edit-

actually i guess i just assumed gestures fell under the "freedom of speech" area

It happened in England. but MAN!!!!!!

Steve

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TimPhelan

12 years ago

It was made by a fan at sporting event. Do a image search of "racist gesture" to see some examples. Come on, it's pretty simple to understand what one is and why someone would get in trouble for doing it at a sporting event.

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

It was made by a fan at sporting event. Do a image search of "racist gesture" to see some examples. Come on, it's pretty simple to understand what one is and why someone would get in trouble for doing it at a sporting event.

I did and the only one I found was about Asians.
Again I'm not saying racial gestures don't exist and I'm not saying they aren't offensive. I'm just saying I didn't know any (I know the Asian one now thanks to that search).
Now to be clear I'm talking about physical gestures not words.

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TimPhelan

12 years ago

You missed the guy in the white coat who imitated a monkey whenever the black player was around.

Originally Posted by ThomM

I did and the only one I found was about Asians.
Again I'm not saying racial gestures don't exist and I'm not saying they aren't offensive. I'm just saying I didn't know any (I know the Asian one now thanks to that search).
Now to be clear I'm talking about physical gestures not words.

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jimbo13

12 years ago

Perhaps this doesn't happen in the US but in Europe it is reasonably common that when black players have the ball there are monkey chants, monkey imitations, bananas thrown onto the pitch, heil Hitler salutes etc etc.

This is generally confined to football (soccer) not in any other sports.

Anyway, this is the reason there are arrests for this sort of thing. It is not heavy handedness but an attempt to stamp this kind of hatred out of football.

Nowhere else would it be tolerated that black professionals in any field be subjected to this kind of abuse.

Dan

PS: Ironically the nickname for football is 'The Beautiful Game'

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seasoned

12 years ago

Originally Posted by jimbo13

Perhaps this doesn't happen in the US but in Europe it is reasonably common that when black players have the ball there are monkey chants, monkey imitations, bananas thrown onto the pitch, heil Hitler salutes etc etc.

This is generally confined to football (soccer) not in any other sports.

Anyway, this is the reason there are arrests for this sort of thing. It is not heavy handedness but an attempt to stamp this kind of hatred out of football.

Nowhere else would it be tolerated that black professionals in any field be subjected to this kind of abuse.

Dan

PS: Ironically the nickname for football is 'The Beautiful Game'

Well, I am ****FAR**** from an expert in sports, and sports in the US can be violent. But I doubt the average US venue allows THOSE sorts of things.

A LOT of american sports have a LOT of, or are nearly all, blacks. HECK, two leaders, last I knew, in TENNIS happen to be sisters, and they are black, and were once ranked #1. I think most in tennis are white, so they kind of stand out, but most others are the opposite. So such hoots, etc... would alienate nearly all, and tire out those doing them.

BTW they SAY you shouldn't talk about religion, or politics. In the US at least, it seems SPORTS is another you can add to that. Everyone in a given state is expected to cheer for a particular group of teams. If they hope another would win, it's best that they are quiet.

Steve

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

You missed the guy in the white coat who imitated a monkey whenever the black player was around.

Yep I did.
But in my defence, my friends do that to me more then I want to admit.
I can see where it would be racist if you did it towards a black person, but in the context I always see it in, it means I'm acting like an idiot (again or still, your choice)

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HeySal

12 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I am from NY, i have seen people give the cops "the finger" and tell them to F off too. i have never seen any one get arrested over it.

Come on out West and try it. LOL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post
You missed the guy in the white coat who imitated a monkey whenever the black player was around.

Originally Posted by ThomM

Yep I did.
But in my defence, my friends do that to me more then I want to admit.
I can see where it would be racist if you did it towards a black person, but in the context I always see it in, it means I'm acting like an idiot (again or still, your choice)

Exactly, Thom. This one really deserves some extra comment because it's a matter of "reverse" racism going on in this one.

When you call a white person a monkey, chimp, baboon, etc - you are saying they are silly and stupid. But you call a black person a monkey and people suddenly take offense that you are "racist". Well guess what - for the term "monkey" to be "racist" , there has to be an observable resemblance between a monkey and the race.............so if you are calling someone racist for calling someone a monkey -- maybe you should be checking out your own thought processes REAL HARD. The minute someone ignores a white person being called a monkey, yet screams "racism" when a black person is called one, we can see who subconsciously thinks what of blacks. The person doing the name calling isn't usually as guilty as the one screaming "racism" on this one. Insulting one person and having someone mutate it into an insult for a whole people is NOT a logical thought process, but a biased one.

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seasoned

12 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Come on out West and try it. LOL.

Quote:

Exactly, Thom. This one really deserves some extra comment because it's a matter of "reverse" racism going on in this one.

When you call a white person a monkey, chimp, baboon, etc - you are saying they are silly and stupid. But you call a black person a monkey and they suddenly take offense that you are "racist". Well guess what - for the term "monkey" to be "racist" , there has to be an observable resemblance between a monkey and the race.............so if you are calling someone racist for calling someone a monkey -- maybe you should be checking out your own thought processes REAL HARD. The minute someone ignores a white person being called a monkey, yet screams "racism" when a black person is called one, we can see who subconsciously thinks what of blacks. The person doing the name calling isn't usually as guilty as the one screaming "racism" on this one.

But black people AREN'T monkeys!!!!!!!!!

They're APES!!!!!!

As are ALL humans! Hominidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apes have more mobility in the arms, and don't have tails.

I wonder if THIS post will get dissected!

It IS funny though. The term "Little monkey" is sometimes used as a term of affection, and they aren't monkeys at all. 8-( As to that gesture? Keeping your arms to the side like that, and pursing the lips IS more like a monkey than the more proper ape.

You said:

Well guess what - for the term "monkey" to be "racist" , there has to be an observable resemblance between a monkey and the race.............so if you are calling someone racist for calling someone a monkey -- maybe you should be checking out your own thought processes REAL HARD.

EXACTLY! THAT is why I said ****INDIRECT**** reference! You have to look at some OLD verbal slurs, etc... and compare them to THIS in order to connect the two.

Steve

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Come on out West and try it. LOL.

Quote:

Exactly, Thom. This one really deserves some extra comment because it's a matter of "reverse" racism going on in this one.

When you call a white person a monkey, chimp, baboon, etc - you are saying they are silly and stupid. But you call a black person a monkey and people suddenly take offense that you are "racist". Well guess what - for the term "monkey" to be "racist" , there has to be an observable resemblance between a monkey and the race.............so if you are calling someone racist for calling someone a monkey -- maybe you should be checking out your own thought processes REAL HARD. The minute someone ignores a white person being called a monkey, yet screams "racism" when a black person is called one, we can see who subconsciously thinks what of blacks. The person doing the name calling isn't usually as guilty as the one screaming "racism" on this one. Insulting one person and having someone mutate it into an insult for a whole people is NOT a logical thought process, but a biased one.

I always thought it was an insult to monkeys, myself

I understand what you are saying. I think some people are so hung up on not being racist, that they act more like a racist by making a big deal out of it.
If I don't like you it is because of who you are, not what you are.
Even slightly considering how you feel about someone because of their skin color is a waste of time and brain function.

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seasoned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I always thought it was an insult to monkeys, myself

YEP! If I told a gorilla(ALSO a great ape), that humans consider themselves to be related to gorillas, the peaceful vegetarian gorilla might break my neck. 8-/ SO, if I could somehow convey it to a gorilla, I think I would be silent. I don't want to offend them anyway. 8-(

Steve
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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I must just be naive, because i did not even know that...

edit-

actually i guess i just assumed gestures fell under the "freedom of speech" area

Give a cop the finger and see how free you end up

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kenmichaels

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Give a cop the finger and see how free you end up

I am from NY, i have seen people give the cops "the finger" and tell them to F off too. i have never seen any one get arrested over it.

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jimbo13 12 years ago

Steve

If you Youtube 'Football Firms' (British) or 'Football Ultras' (European) you will see that football is a little different from most sports.

Dan
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- seasoned 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by jimbo13
  
  Steve
  
  If you Youtube 'Football Firms' (British) or 'Football Ultras' (European) you will see that football is a little different from most sports.
  
  Dan
  
  Well, europe often treats countries like states, so rooting for your country is essentially the same. The ANGER I spoke of is OBVIOUSLY there since there have been cases where people have DIED! So HOW is it different, in the context I said? OK, OK! Americans say "soccer" to refer to what many call "football". But THAT is out of context with what I said.
  
  Steve
  
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thunderbird 12 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I am from NY, i have seen people give the cops "the finger" and tell them to F off too. i have never seen any one get arrested over it.

Giving cops the finger? You might get away with it just like if you play Russian roulette you might not end up with a bullet in your head.
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- seasoned 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by thunderbird
  
  Giving cops the finger? You might get away with it just like if you play Russian roulette you might not end up with a bullet in your head.
  
  Cops are NO better than the average person. Some will let you do even things that are only borderline legal! They may even let you do ILLEGAL things if they feel the effect is harmless! Some of those will let you punch them, cuss them, or give them the finger.
  
  OTHERS will throw a scare in you if you even say BOO.
  
  Appearances are deceiving though. You won't know how they react until maybe a few months after the event. They COULD write out, and file, a ticket, and not tell you, and you could end up paying hundreds, or going to court.
  
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MoneyMagnetMagnate 12 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I am from NY, i have seen people give the cops "the finger" and tell them to F off too. i have never seen any one get arrested over it.

Isn't that the way you say "good morning! " in NYC? :rolleyes:

Hey, Joey..."F" you! -
Hey! "F" you too Eddie!
fuhgetaboutit!
(nuttin' personal...I'm just sayin')
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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

I am from NY, i have seen people give the cops "the finger" and tell them to F off too. i have never seen any one get arrested over it.

Ken you got to be talking about the city. Hell the finger and saying F off is how they say hello there

.
Try doing that upstate to a Trooper

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kenmichaels

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Ken you got to be talking about the city. Hell the finger and saying F off is how they say hello there

.
Try doing that upstate to a Trooper

Flatbush , Bronx, Manhatten. Is where i spent my most of my childhood.

and is upstate even considered NY ??? lol

I have family up there from syracuse, to watertown... and they are all cops
they would totally kick my *ss if i said that to them.

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ThomM

12 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Flatbush , Bronx, Manhatten. Is where i spent my most of my childhood.

and is upstate even considered NY ??? lol

I have family up there from syracuse, to watertown... and they are all cops
they would totally kick my *ss if i said that to them.

Not to people down south, it's all NYC to them

I'm up in the Albany-Troy area so I'm the opposite and don't conceder NYC as part of NY

I spend some time now and then out around Pulaski, Boonville, and up in the Adirondacks. I wouldn't give those cops the finger on my best day.

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MikeAmbrosio

12 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Not to people down south, it's all NYC to them

I'm up in the Albany-Troy area so I'm the opposite and don't conceder NYC as part of NY

I spend some time now and then out around Pulaski, Boonville, and up in the Adirondacks. I wouldn't give those cops the finger on my best day.

I'm sort of in the "crossover" area. About 60 miles from NYC, those that have lived here many years (like I have) say we are in lower upstate NY. But because of the location, we have a LOT of recent NYC transplants (since 9/11 our town has doubled in size). These people still think they're in NYC - especially if they are behind you and the light turns green. You can't even get to "1" before they honk at you

And I still would not give the cops around here the finger either. They may not arrest you - but they may pull you over and ticket you for ANYthing.

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MikeAmbrosio

12 years ago

Originally Posted by kenmichaels

Flatbush , Bronx, Manhatten. Is where i spent my most of my childhood.

and is upstate even considered NY ??? lol

I have family up there from syracuse, to watertown... and they are all cops
they would totally kick my *ss if i said that to them.

It is if they want water - they get most of it piped down from somewhere between me and Thom

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Dennis Gaskill

12 years ago

This world just keeps getting dumber and dumber.

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seasoned

12 years ago

WOW, ALL these years and after something like this I STILL don't google it, although the incident here obscured it. I usually DO google it. It IS complex but I could STILL explain it away if four didn't simultaneously do it at one match, and the guy that did it here did it every time the guy touched the ball. BTW In india, though they said the lookup was for a racist gesture, they are locking them up for being a public nuisance. In one case like this, a woman had an indian flag on her forehead. Wouldn't that mean she was FOR india? Given that, I would have thought that action was more likely one FOR the player. Then again, it is an indirect reference, and I guess could be for either.

Still, wow. A few people on youtube were kidding around about "racial gestures", but theirs were such that it could be passed off as being tired!

But WOW, I'll never understand how people get SO involved with sports. Anything could happen and FACE IT! If they ALWAYS had the ball, etc.... would you go? In a way you are there for the other teams as much as for yours, even if you DO want to see YOURS win!

Steve

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Suthan M

12 years ago

I know cultural gestures, but I don't know any that is specific to a particular race.
That said, I won't be surprised it exists.
(Example: A hand motion in Italy that means 'WTF" is the same in India (with Indians) to ask " Have you eaten".

Source

(Skip to around 1.35 to watch)

Coming from a very multicultural society, doing anything racist (speak, show racist behaviour) is not exactly the way to co-exist peacefully with others. Why do that, in the first place?

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MikeAmbrosio

12 years ago

It would seem to me that simply saying "they got arrested for racist gestures..." doesn't really say enough. From my perspective, racist gestures are bad enough. But in an environment such as highly (emotionally) charged sporting events, they could VERY easily cause major clashes between fans that can result in injury or death. Seems like a very good reason to get arrested for making gestures...

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cjbmeb14

12 years ago

I wonder if we will ever see a complete end to Racism?

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seasoned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by cjbmeb14

I wonder if we will ever see a complete end to Racism?

If things in the US continue on their current path, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to end it. Since the reason for my statement forbids me to say more, I will leave it at that.

Steve
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garyv

12 years ago

I don't think racists need to be arrested, unless they become violent. In my opinion, they should get more exposure, so the rest of the brain using world can see how foolish they look. - Nobody in their right mind wants to be that guy right now.

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thunderbird 12 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

I don't think racists need to be arrested, unless they become violent.<snip>

Can provocative gestures trigger violence at soccer matches? I don't think so. They are a peaceful lot.

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HeySal

12 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

I don't think racists need to be arrested, unless they become violent. In my opinion, they should get more exposure, so the rest of the brain using world can see how foolish they look. - Nobody in their right mind wants to be that guy right now.

I think it should be totally ignored. Any attention seems to exacerbate the situation. I can see the need for PC in the work place. Nobody should have to work in a situation that is threatening or insulting. On the street, though, PC causes more problems than it is solving. People just pick apart anything someone says so they can make a stink or sue for it. It's also a waste of time. People will just take tones that will make politically correct terminology take on derogatory connotations if they seriously don't like a group. We keep changing terms that we are socially allowed to call different factions of people - yet bigotry is still alive and doing well. go figure.

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Alan Petersen

12 years ago

If he truly was tracked down to his home and arrested for making a monkey gesture, however offensive, seems overboard IMO.

Man bailed after racist gesture at soccer

Kick him out of the match, yes. Ban him from attending future games, sure. But arresting him for being an idiot seems a bit much.

I've read that German's are uber sensitive about Nazi Pro-Hitler gestures and that it's actually illegal there to do that so depending on the country, some gestures can get you arrested.

And hey you don't have to give the finger to a cop to find trouble. If you give the finger to a civilian better be ready to back it up.

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

12 years ago

Who was it that said: "I went to a Fight once...and a Hockey Game broke out -"? :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by seasoned

YEP! If I told a gorilla(ALSO a great ape), that humans consider themselves to be related to gorillas, the peaceful vegetarian gorilla might break my neck. 8-/ SO, if I could somehow convey it to a gorilla, I think I would be silent. I don't want to offend them anyway. 8-(

Steve

And if that Gorilla comes in for a job interview, don't mention it if he's a Silverback - that is age discrimination!

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