Europe Is Rejecting Austerity

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Major public shifts are happening in Europe. I wonder how it might impact North America's economy.

Angela Merkel setback as austerity agenda rejected in Germany's biggest state - Telegraph
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Hard to figure that one out. When there is nothing that the PTB will stop at to get what they want, whether it's legal or not, it makes it hard to figure how stuff is going to turn out.
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  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    The single currency zone was always a stupid idea. A free trade zone, sure, that makes sense.

    Expecting emerging economies like the former Soviet bloc (Slovakia, Hungary, etc.) to operate in the same way as fully developed nations like Germany though was just plain idiocy.

    No wonder many think it was just a way for Germany to take over Europe using the monetary system rather than tanks and troops.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
    Hopefully people in the US will learn from this and realize that now isn't the time to make huge cuts in the budget such as a proposed $1 trillion in one year plan by a certain unnamed politician, which would likely send this country into a real depression.
    Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

    I wonder how it might impact North America's economy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Hopefully people in the US will learn from this
      The US people will not learn.

      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      now isn't the time to make huge cuts in the budget such as a proposed $1 trillion in one year
      You are correct, now is not the time. Huge budget cuts should have been put in place years ago.

      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      which would likely send this country into a real depression.
      That is inevitable.

      Plan and take action now.
      America ---> Someplace else.

      Joe Mobley
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I don't think it's a surprising turn of events. The German people are not fond of Germany bailing out Greece and others.

        Germany had a pretty good economy and they see other countries who have spent wildly and made guarantees they can't pay for - and now Germans are being asked to cut back....after being told they would HAVE to bailout others.

        The question is how long the house of cards can stand - and that house includes several countries. Voting to reject austerity programs is a feel good movement - but someone has to pay for the social programs and the spending that's gone on for years and built this debt.

        Austerity programs are unpopular and there is no patriotic fervor to sell those programs there was during the two World Wars.

        We can all go on spending - but sooner or later the ride will come to an end. I'm afraid that's where we are headed - a major global economic meltdown. It may not come for years but if cutbacks in spending and promises don't start soon....our children and grandchildren may pay a high price for our stupidity.

        Everyone wants their share of milk and honey - but no one wants to put in the effort of milking their own cow or establishing their own bee hives.:rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Hopefully people in the US will learn from this and realize that now isn't the time to make huge cuts in the budget such as a proposed $1 trillion in one year plan by a certain unnamed politician, which would likely send this country into a real depression.
      You're right.
      Much better to trash the constitution and put us 5 trillion more in debt like another unnamed politician has done:rolleyes:
      Hows that working for us?
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I agree Thom - but it's both sides that share responsibility.

        If you go to the national debt clock and look at the numbers from 2000, 2004, 2008 and today - it's frightening to see the upward spiral on spending and debt. It doesn't take an economist to realize the trend is not sustainable.
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        • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
          Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

          The single currency zone was always a stupid idea. A free trade zone, sure, that makes sense.

          Expecting emerging economies like the former Soviet bloc (Slovakia, Hungary, etc.) to operate in the same way as fully developed nations like Germany though was just plain idiocy.

          No wonder many think it was just a way for Germany to take over Europe using the monetary system rather than tanks and troops.
          Nigel Farage, is that you?

          Always love the roastings he dishes out in EP.

          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          I agree Thom - but it's both sides that share responsibility.

          If you go to the national debt clock and look at the numbers from 2000, 2004, 2008 and today - it's frightening to see the upward spiral on spending and debt. It doesn't take an economist to realize the trend is not sustainable.
          Of course it doesn't. But it might take an economist of sorts to argue in its favour, with endless convoluted babble.
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          • Profile picture of the author Thomas
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I don't think it's a surprising turn of events. The German people are not fond of Germany bailing out Greece and others.

            Germany had a pretty good economy and they see other countries who have spent wildly and made guarantees they can't pay for - and now Germans are being asked to cut back....after being told they would HAVE to bailout others.
            As an Irish taxpayer, I'm not that fond of bailing out German banks. My taxes have increased several fold in the last few years to make sure the poor Dears aren't subjected to market forces.

            And I'm pretty sure the Germans prefer the current status quo anyway, rather than going back to before the financial crisis when the German economy was in the doldrums, from which it arose because of that same crisis. The current situation might not be to their liking but, if the euro collapsed tomorrow morning, German products would almost instantly price themselves out of the export markets.

            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            ... but someone has to pay for the social programs and the spending that's gone on for years and built this debt.

            Everyone wants their share of milk and honey - but no one wants to put in the effort of milking their own cow or establishing their own bee hives.:rolleyes:
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            If you go to the national debt clock and look at the numbers from 2000, 2004, 2008 and today - it's frightening to see the upward spiral on spending and debt. It doesn't take an economist to realize the trend is not sustainable.
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            The Irish sovereign debt crisis was not based on government over-spending, but from the state guaranteeing the six main Irish-based banks who had financed a property bubble.
            I know the mere mention of Europe conjures up the "Socialism bogeyman" in the minds of many Americans (even though the US is far more into socialism than the majority of Europe anyway), and the whole situation on this side of the pond is explained away as "that's what you for being Commies"... however, as with most things, reality is quite different.

            Speaking from experience in this particular part of Europe (Ireland), what Tim alluded to is correct. In fact, Irish national debt was being paid down (rapidly) right up until the crisis:



            The still-to-be-explained decision to "save" the banks (who didn't get the money they invested out of thin air - most of it came from German, French, and British banks) to make sure Irish banks and, by extension German, French, and British banks, don't have to face the reality of a commercial decision that didn't pan out is the #1 economic problem for this country... it turns out that, at least in this particular part of Europe, socialists wanting to spend other people's money is much less of a problem than capitalists wanting to simply steal it outright under threat of economic armageddon

            (Incidentally, I say "still be be explained" decision to save the banks because that decision is, in fact, subject to an ongoing investigated by the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation (the part of the police force here that investigates financial crimes); sooner or later, people will go to prison because of it. Sooner the better, methinks.)

            On a related note, have a look at this:


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            • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
              It's great when one European Country issues ultimatums to another.

              I don't recall the Greeks voting for Merkel.

              Merkel tells Greece to back cuts or face euro exit - Telegraph

              So much for European Democracy.

              But anyway, we bomb Arab countries to force them to have something we don't have ourselves anymore.

              Dan
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              • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                The Greeks didn't vote for Merkel. They voted for financially ignorant fools who bankrupted the country.

                Now the broke Greek government is begging Germany for money. As with every other area in life, the lender dictates terms to the borrower.

                Joe Mobley


                Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

                It's great when one European Country issues ultimatums to another.

                I don't recall the Greeks voting for Merkel.
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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Joe - You got it backwards. Problem is - the Germans didn't vote for Greece! Germany was pushed by the European Union and Merkel agreed with "saving" Greece.

                  I think Greece is closer than many think to being put out of the EU. That would be a catastrophe for Greece - but a case study for other countries unwilling to suffer cutbacks.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    Joe - You got it backwards.
                    That's entirely possible. And it wouldn't be the first time.

                    ---

                    As far as world economics goes, this has all happened before. Several times in fact. The cries of fools now sounds eerily similar to the fools that have gone before. The geography may be different and the timing may be hard to nail down, but the results are very predictable.

                    The unfortunate part in all this is that many people will get hurt. But many will see the writing on the wall and make adjustments in their lives for the better. As for me, I don't plan on being in the house when the wildfire burns it down.

                    Train's-a-come'n.

                    Joe Mobley
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Beautifully said my Irish brother.

              Originally Posted by Thomas View Post

              ...it turns out that, at least in this particular part of Europe, socialists wanting to spend other people's money is much less of a problem than capitalists wanting to simply steal it outright under threat of economic armageddon
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Hopefully people in the US will learn from this and realize that now isn't the time to make huge cuts in the budget such as a proposed $1 trillion in one year plan by a certain unnamed politician, which would likely send this country into a real depression.

      You're 1000% right Tim.

      Now is not the time for austerity. ( is there ever a time? )


      Tim, I believe most people who think they are in favor of austerity...

      ... truly, do not fully understand the short and long term damage that will be visited upon their fellow citizens if they get their way.


      I'm talking about family and friends also - not just people they don't know.


      We're between a rock and a hard place and certainly doomed to a new economic America, if we engage in austerity economics.


      If we invest wisely in our people and our country we have an excellent chance to return to the America of the 1990's - as far as economics are concerned.


      How?

      We can hold the line/pain on our economy and add to the deficit short term by borrowing...



      ... in order to make those necessary investments over the next few years...



      ...or...


      ... we can tax those that appear to be able to afford it ( the wealthy and corps ) to obtain


      ...the funds ( about 200-300 billion per year ) for our necessary investments.


      Our side is more than willing to make some painful but responsible cuts but the other side is still unwilling to raise any new revenues at all to help meet the challenges of the nation.


      Grover Norquest must be very proud.

      http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_16...ld-on-the-gop/


      The other side ( that seriously mismanaged the national budget in the first place )...

      ... is claiming super deficit hawk status and is simply using the crisis to try to get rid of the new deal attitudes and programs that helped make this country great.


      Starve the beast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


      All The Best!!

      TL
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

        The other side ( that seriously mismanaged the national budget in the first place )...

        ... is claiming super deficit hawk status and is simply using the crisis to try to get rid of the new deal attitudes and programs that helped make this country great.
        And here I thought that it was the American people that made this country great. Now I find out it was government programs that did it.

        Silly me.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Question of the Day:

          Is it possible to go so far to the left you fall off the Pacific Rim? Just wonderin'
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          • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
            I don't know about the Pacific Rim but it is possible to go so far to the left that you fall for almost anything.

            Joe Mobley


            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Question of the Day:

            Is it possible to go so far to the left you fall off the Pacific Rim? Just wonderin'
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          • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Question of the Day:

            Is it possible to go so far to the left you fall off the Pacific Rim? Just wonderin'
            answer of the day:

            Sooner the better
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

          And here I thought that it was the American people that made this country great. Now I find out it was government programs that did it.

          Silly me.
          Yes, silly you for ignoring or not seeing one important word of my comment...

          If you carefully look at what I said...


          ... it was...

          "is simply using the crisis to try to get rid of the new deal attitudes and programs that

          helped...

          ... make this country great."


          Notice the word "helped"??


          All The Best!!

          TL
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

            Notice the word "helped"??
            Oh, I noticed.

            I (and I am not the only one) think that the New Deal, and especially FDR, damaged the country almost irreparably.

            The New Deal represented a significant shift in politics and domestic policy. It especially led to greatly increased federal regulation of the economy. It also marked the beginning of complex social programs and growing power of labor unions. The effects of the New Deal remain a source of controversy and debate amongst economists and historians.[18]
            New Deal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
              Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

              Oh, I noticed.

              I (and I am not the only one) think that the New Deal, and especially FDR, damaged the country almost irreparably.



              New Deal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              You and the rest of your like minded friends are entitled.


              TL
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              • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
                Thomas

                I was being a little flippant on Europe being a waste of time and effort to the US.

                EU is the worlds largest market after all.

                Anyway, this just in The DT

                Greece on brink of collapse - Telegraph

                Dan
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                You and the rest of your like minded friends are entitled.


                TL
                Just like you and your like minded friend are.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Cutting government spending does not take money out of the economy.


      And one plus one equals three.


      TL
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    some one once said internal depression is demonstrated by external aggression
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    "Austerity led Greece into failure."
    Should have said, Austerity applied too late couldn't save Greece from failure.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    The collapse of the Euro is inevitable, old habits die hard. As for its effects, the same if not worse than the GFC since the banking system is now addicted to bailouts. Every time a bailout of an economy is announced, bank shares go through the roof.

    Not good.

    -Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    Why is anyone surprised that the receivers of government largess rebel at the prospect of having their tap turned off?

    Europe isn't "rejecting austerity". They're in denial over the fact that they're running out of money and the only way back to some kind of fiscal sanity is to stop the cycle of government borrowing and spending.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      Why is anyone surprised that the receivers of government largess rebel at the prospect of having their tap turned off?
      It isn't government largesse, so much as taxpayer largesse.

      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      Europe isn't "rejecting austerity".
      You think not, Steve?

      Europe's voters, in many countries (pretty consistently, both in elections and in current opinion polls) are collectively rejecting parties endorsing austerity, anyway. I'm not suggesting there's anything "good" or "bad" about that, but that's undeniably how it is.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Here's a snapshot of what happened/is happening in Ireland:

      The Irish sovereign debt crisis was not based on government over-spending, but from the state guaranteeing the six main Irish-based banks who had financed a property bubble. On 29 September 2008, Finance Minister Brian Lenihan, Jnr issued a one-year guarantee to the banks' depositors and bond-holders. He renewed it for another year in September 2009 soon after the launch of the National Asset Management Agency (NAMA), a body designed to remove bad loans from the six banks.
      Irish banks had lost an estimated 100 billion euros, much of it related to defaulted loans to property developers and homeowners made in the midst of the property bubble, which burst around 2007. The economy collapsed during 2008. Unemployment rose from 4% in 2006 to 14% by 2010, while the federal budget went from a surplus in 2007 to a deficit of 32% GDP in 2010, the highest in the history of the eurozone, despite draconian austerity measures.[18][84]
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      Why is anyone surprised that the receivers of government largess rebel at the prospect of having their tap turned off?

      Europe isn't "rejecting austerity". They're in denial over the fact that they're running out of money and the only way back to some kind of fiscal sanity is to stop the cycle of government borrowing and spending.
      It's a bit more complicated than that.

      First off paying taxes in Greece is apparently "optional". The government neglected to collect tax in the first place.

      The second part of the equation was offering the citizenry generous "largesse" despite the fact that they had no revenue to meet the "commitments".

      To meet these "commitments", they had no other option but to borrow as Greece doesn't have much of an economy. They don't have any major exports, and tourism is their only real industry.

      The only way they can get out of this mess is to collect tax, then cut back on spending and borrowing.

      Merely cutting back isn't going to do anything at all unless they have some revenue (tax) coming in.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    god, grant me the wisdom to change the things i can

    accept the things i can't

    and the wisdom to know the difference

    i can't change it, so why worry

    globalisation sucks
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by oncewerewarriors View Post

      god, grant me the wisdom to change the things i can

      accept the things i can't

      and the wisdom to know the difference

      i can't change it, so why worry

      globalisation sucks
      Straying from the subject here: I Googled Tai Tokerau and Aotearoa to find out what it was. I thought you living in China. Are you presently located in New Zealand now? Are you Maori?
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      • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        Straying from the subject here: I Googled Tai Tokerau and Aotearoa to find out what it was. I thought you living in China. Are you presently located in New Zealand now? Are you Maori?
        i cant change it so i dont need to worry about it, i support isolationism in fiscal policy

        New Zealand has two official languages

        i lived in china for several years ad am now back in new zealand. i will be going to UK, in june then onto china to buy more puma shoes, then back to nz

        life is a beach
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
      I may not be able (or want) to stop the train from coming. But I sure can get my ass off the tracks.


      Train's-a-come'n.

      Joe Mobley

      Originally Posted by oncewerewarriors View Post


      i can't change it, so why worry
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    My side, their side. What a lark. They are both the same "side" -- one plays off the other to make people think there are two sides. The only difference between them is how they will spend your money after they extort it from you.

    We were a country of free people that knew how to turn a buck - and that is what made us great. Then the plutocracy got it's fingernails into us. They made a fiat currency that would allow them to exploit EVERYONE and EVERYTHING for their OWN wealth and comfort. We now have rulers that regulate everything and it's messing us up just as badly as it does every other country with absolute rule and increasing regulation. 6 of our amendments have been trashed for this purpose and that purpose, and we are being stripped of every cent they can shake from us........and they expect us to be duped about how much good it's doing us when we go open empty refrigerators or are regulated to stay at home because REAL energy answers are being suppressed while they raise the price of gas beyond a level that people can freely travel. Even getting to min wage jobs can be struggle for the general populace now.

    Yet we debate - our side their side. Go figure. Easy targets we were for a fact.

    Metal backed money - free trade - end the war on drugs - end all wars that weren't immediate threats to us onshore. And that is all it takes. Wonder when people will understand that again - or ever. The changes made to textbooks in recent years is a joke. Maybe we'll never get free enough again to know the real story.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    "Austerity" sort of sounds like it could be someone's name. Prudence Austerity Sanguedolce-Plenderleith.
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      "Austerity" sort of sounds like it could be someone's name. Prudence Austerity Sanguedolce-Plenderleith.
      You forgot to add...



      The 3rd.


      All The Best!!

      TL


      Ps. Folks who believe in this economic strategy are now called Austerians.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Germany's Merkel and the new French President to meet this week and it may determine the future of the continent.


    Europe's dirty secrets - Europe - Salon.com
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    • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
      So next week is G8 and NATO summit in the US?

      Europe is going through some sort of economic meltdown and US think tank reported this today about the UK.

      Damning report condemns 'unclear' British foreign policy - Telegraph

      I'm surprised US hasn't thought to itself that Europe is just one big waste of time and effort these days.

      US West Coast and The Pacific Rim countries are the future now.

      Dan
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        New favorite baby boy name: Austere. I like it:p
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          New favorite baby boy name: Austere. I like it:p
          I like it too. Got a masculine sound to it like Austin with an added ring of sophistication. Austere Kirkbright IV.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

        So next week is G8 and NATO summit in the US?

        Europe is going through some sort of economic meltdown and US think tank reported this today about the UK.

        Damning report condemns 'unclear' British foreign policy - Telegraph

        I'm surprised US hasn't thought to itself that Europe is just one big waste of time and effort these days.

        US West Coast and The Pacific Rim countries are the future now.

        Dan
        I wouldn't go as far as to say Europe is a waste of time, but this admin is also aggressively pursuing a strategy to help the US be in a position to reap benefits from the newer economic realities in the Pacific Rim.



        All The Best!!

        TL
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        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          I wouldn't go as far as to say Europe is a waste of time, but this admin is also aggressively pursuing a strategy to help the US be in a position to reap benefits from the newer economic realities in the Pacific Rim.
          Something Australia twigged onto in the early 1990's. That's one of the main reasons we've done so well since then.
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      • Profile picture of the author Thomas
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        I think Greece is closer than many think to being put out of the EU. That would be a catastrophe for Greece - but a case study for other countries unwilling to suffer cutbacks.
        A member state of the EU cannot be forced out of the Union against it's will. Exit from the EU requires unanimity (i.e. Greece would have to agree to expel itself).

        And, even if it could (be forced out), it wouldn't be viewed as a warning to others to fall in line - it would be viewed as a direct, and entirely unacceptable, threat and is very likely to cause the collapse of the entire Union in a very short space of time (i.e. practically overnight).

        (Btw, I think people mix up the EU (a 27 nation bloc) and the "Eurozone" (the 17 members of the EU that use a common currency). However, a member of the Eurozone cannot simply be ejected by the others either.)

        Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

        I'm surprised US hasn't thought to itself that Europe is just one big waste of time and effort these days.
        I doubt anyone thinks a US$17.578 trillion economy is a waste of time - and that's just the EU, which represents only 27 of the 50-or-so countries considered at least geographically European (which, combined, account for one-third of the world economy).
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Is this a sign???

    On his way to meet the German Chancellor, new French President...


    Francois Hollande Changes Plane After Presidential Jet Hit By Lightning
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    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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