As Costs Soar, Taxpayers Target Pensions of Cops and Firefighters

[Joe Mobley]

Chuck Reed, the city's Democratic mayor, elected in 2006, says stratospheric pension costs are largely to blame for the problems.

Of the $79 million in increased costs, retirement expenditures accounted for $58 million.

In late March, the city got a jolt when Moody's Investors Service cut its ratings on San Jose's general obligation bonds to Aa1 from Aaa, citing the "multiyear erosion of the city's general fund reserves."

In a city where public-safety workers earn an average of $109,000, and other workers collect an average of $69,000, police and firefighters are having a tough time winning over voters.

I think that this type of scenario will continue to play out in cities, counties, and some states across the country. I believe that this will exacerbate an already bad financial climate here in the United States.

Let me recommend that you reevaluate your near-term lifestyle decisions and adjust accordingly.

The article is here,

A Pension Battle Erupts in San Jose With Cops and Firefights at Center - WSJ.com

"Train's-a-coming."

Joe Mobley

[Patrician]

Yes and it is more like the politicians/legislators who need to have their benefits reduced - lifetime BS for doing a BS job makes no sense.

They need to have the same 'breaks' and 'benefits' as the normal average people that they are paid to 'represent'.

The LAST people on earth that deserve a reduction in their benefits are police and firefighters.

Around these parts in an emergency they have to call in contingencies from other neighboring counties and cities because the police and fire resources have been so drastically reduced that they can't respond.

Your house is burning? Please leave a message.

Where do we find these fricking dumb ass people that make these type of decisions??? CUT THEIR JOBS and maybe they will figure it out.

[seasoned]

Politicians are ISOLATED from ANY economic problems. Did you know that the presidents salary is now over $400,000? About twenty years ago, it was a QUARTER of that! They say that he is the CEO(In fnancial/business/risk terms he is NOT!), and should thus get something closer to what business CEOs get. GRANTED he is considered the chief of a branch called executive, but that is as far as it goes! He hasn't invested so much in the company! He doesn't have REAL numbers presented to him where he decides what he has to give up to keep things going. He doesn't have final say on every little thing. To have all the characteristics of a CEO, he would have to be president, congress, AND the supreme court, with ALL the risks of a normal citizen! AND he would have to have REAL numbers, not just third hand fudged estimates, etc... I don't recall what representatives get but at one point they quickly got up to about $100K.

BESIDES, a number of companies have a president AND a CEO. The PRESIDENT is more likely to be like the president of the US, but STILL has the risks of a normal citizen. The president has to answer to the board, which is kind of like congress and the supreme court. The HEAD of the board is the CEO! What is the difference between a president and a chief executive officer? Can there be more than one of each?

And the perks can be in the multiple MILLIONS! In the president's case, they could be in the BILLIONS!

And the BENEFITS? Even WITHOUT the PENSION PLAN that is LARGE, can be added to, and can be accessed very early? I doubt there is an equal on the planet!

Frankly, such a person should NOT be able to decide on any expenses or taxing others. It is a CLEAR conflict of interest! I mean they want to be liked/rehired/and be RICH! The easiest way is to get people MONEY! They can simply tax forever! If the economy PLUMMETS, what do THEY care? They are RICH! And the fund, and formerly the dollar, were pretty sacrosanct. After all, only congress can change it, and they should change it for THEMSELVES first, if it is a reduction, so THEY DON'T DARE!

Steve

[TLTheLiberator]

Targeting police and firefighters is the wrong way to fix our local budget problems IMHO.


As far as I'm concerned any president at 400K per year is way underpaid.


IMHO all national public servants' ( Congress and President ) pay should be tied to how well we do as a nation.

They should get a decent base pay and if for example...

GDP increases, net jobs increase, and average income increases verses inflation they should get a generous bonus.

Of course there will need to be thresholds that they would have to meet in order to get their bonus.

This may stop many pols from working and voting against the best interest of the population which many are clearly doing now.


All The Best!!

TL


Ps.

Also, secret service protection for POTUS should be until the day they die instead of only 10 years after they leave office which I believe is a recent change.

They make decisions that can stop people or corps from making tens and hundreds of millions of dollars and are apt to make some serious and deadly enemies.

[grace5]

As Costs Soar, Taxpayers Target Pensions of Cops and Firefighters

Sad, but it is most likely coming to all of our towns.

I watch a doc. on TV about Detroit and was shocked. ... the infrastructure is crumbling, so many economics woos, leading to cuts and band-aids that only temporary repair the problems or make bigger ones else where.


The pressure is too great, something has to start giving

[Kay King]

We are being misled on so many fronts - by all sides - it's frightening.

I think there's a big push on to misdirect in one direction after another. I didn't read all the article because I didn't want to subscribe - but if you saw public workers (in a job that feeds them when on duty) buying top of line food...that would do it for some people.

For a while pension funds were bloated - promises made by pols who couldn't do basic math apparently.

We're being misdirected at every turn. When social programs are mentioned, the discussions immediately goes to social security and medicare. BUT - that's not the issue. The number of people getting SS payments that DID NOT PAY INTO THAT SYSTEM is greater than the number of retired people collecting.

Survivors benefits cover offspring and multiple spouses - and you end up with the person who contributed being deceased and the SS system paying many checks every month for years for that one account. The disability qualifications have become too broad.

MedicAID is highly abused but it is medicare pols point to.

Media cooperates because the main programs and police and firefighters raise public interest - and the hangers on don't get the same interest.

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by Patrician

Yes and it is more like the politicians/legislators who need to have their benefits reduced - lifetime BS for doing a BS job makes no sense.

They need to have the same 'breaks' and 'benefits' as the normal average people that they are paid to 'represent'.

The LAST people on earth that deserve a reduction in their benefits are police and firefighters.

Around these parts in an emergency they have to call in contingencies from other neighboring counties and cities because the police and fire resources have been so drastically reduced that they can't respond.

Your house is burning? Please leave a message.

Where do we find these fricking dumb ass people that make these type of decisions??? CUT THEIR JOBS and maybe they will figure it out.

But Pat that would change the dynamics of politics from "who wants to be a millionaire" back to "who wants to be a public servant".

[grace5]

Public servant?
It is not what I can do for my country but what can my country do for me.



Vote for me as I really do love myself more than anyone else ... does

[Lori Kelly]

I agree Patricia. Many, many years ago, the public servant meant leaving your job and serving the public. I'm pretty sure it didn't come with lifetime benefits.

And some yahoo in line at the grocery store is concerned that a firefighter has steaks in his cart? Paaaa llleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. The right thing to do would have been to buy this firefighter's entire basket and gave him cash to boot.

Ignoring the root of the problem.
Let's see Cali and other states that are struggling (pensions, etc.).

Why is the pension plan failing?
Lemme guess.

It was an investment vehicle and I'd put money down that the investment was in the s h i t t y loans packaged up and sold on Wall Street.

Instead of cutting pension plans, how about filing some lawsuits and going after the crooks that are responsible for bankrupting the cities.

[dallas playboy]

I like it when these bean counters post a gross income of a firefighter or a Peace Officer.
Some of the paydays are basesd on overtime pay for working a homicide, fatal car wrecks,fighting a fire for two days, working beaches full of spring breakers, city carnivas,
riots, working double shifts during storms, etc. How much should a person get paid for
chasing a nut with a hostage, breaking up a bar fight, giving CPR to a person who would
have died unless the firefighters kept them alive until they transported them to the ER, ETC, ETC. Them bean counters only have to worry that they don't get their pinkie caught
in a pencil sharpner, and they're going to tell a Firefighter or Cop they make too much $?
Next they'll be complaining about how much a Military person makes in the Tora Bora.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Kay King

We are being misled on so many fronts - by all sides - it's frightening.

I think there's a big push on to misdirect in one direction after another. I didn't read all the article because I didn't want to subscribe - but if you saw public workers (in a job that feeds them when on duty) buying top of line food...that would do it for some people.

For a while pension funds were bloated - promises made by pols who couldn't do basic math apparently.

We're being misdirected at every turn. When social programs are mentioned, the discussions immediately goes to social security and medicare. BUT - that's not the issue. The number of people getting SS payments that DID NOT PAY INTO THAT SYSTEM is greater than the number of retired people collecting.

Survivors benefits cover offspring and multiple spouses - and you end up with the person who contributed being deceased and the SS system paying many checks every month for years for that one account. The disability qualifications have become too broad.

MedicAID is highly abused but it is medicare pols point to.

Media cooperates because the main programs and police and firefighters raise public interest - and the hangers on don't get the same interest.

WOW, I wish there were a way to thank some posts more than once.

Steve

[Ken_Caudill]

Police, teachers and firemen is the code for governmental theft. It is a propaganda tool. Any time someone actually does something to reduce government spending you can bet that the thieves will start bitching about police, teachers and firemen.

Teachers are glorified babysitters who teach government-certified curriculum and turn out people who can barely read. Police spend most of their time harassing people on the road and setting them up to pay ridiculous fines to pay their own salaries. Community volunteers are entirely capable of putting out fires.

We could do with a serious reduction in all three "professions."

As for politicians, stop voting for any incumbent. That might be a start.

[TimPhelan]

Originally Posted by Kay King

The number of people getting SS payments that DID NOT PAY INTO THAT SYSTEM is greater than the number of retired people collecting.

Hmm. Not sure where you got that but from the SSA site:

In 2012, over 56 million Americans will receive $778 billion in Social Security benefits.
December 2011 Beneficiary Data

Retired workers 36 million $43.7 billion $1,229 average monthly benefit
dependents 2.9 million $ 1.8 billion

Disabled workers 8.6 million $ 9.5 billion $1,111 average monthly benefit
dependents 2 million $ .67 billion

Survivors 6.3 million $ 6.5 billion $1,185 average monthly benefit

Plus, I would think many of the survivors and disabled workers did actually pay into the system at some time.

Social Security Administration: Social Security Basic Facts

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Police, teachers and firemen is the code for governmental theft. It is a propaganda tool. Any time someone actually does something to reduce government spending you can bet that the thieves will start bitching about police, teachers and firemen.

Teachers are glorified babysitters who teach government-certified curriculum and turn out people who can barely read. Police spend most of their time harassing people on the road and setting them up to pay ridiculous fines to pay their own salaries. Community volunteers are entirely capable of putting out fires.

We could do with a serious reduction in all three "professions."

As for politicians, stop voting for any incumbent. That might be a start.

My mother had a police officer HARASS her even while she was near unconscious, and near death! They CONSPIRED TO LIE! In short, they committed FELONIES that would have gotten ANYONE else LOCKED UP IN JAIL! At least one harassed my father. I was nearly shot, according to the cop that almost did so, because he harrassed me for NO reason BY HIS OWN ADMISSION! Another threatened to tow my car because I was hit, and could have been dying, while he harassed me. I actually DID go to the hospital right after he let me go! LUCKILY I was OK. The police ALSO decided to ignore all evidence I sent them of thefts that affected TWELVE families that I knew of! They EVENTUALLY sent me a notice saying "the case was open but inactive", and claimed they never got the evidence that I PERSONALLY gave them at the police station. I have seen a LOT of bad teachers. Apparently they have only gotten WORSE! The "education system" is corrupt, without standards, and quite silly. I spoke with parents that feel the same, and teachers have even said that they won't even ENCOURAGE a 3rd grader, that is illiterate, to read! I really can't say anything about firemen, but who knows...

I STILL remember how a stupid tax war, about something that was NOT even in effect at the time, prevented me from taking drivers ed! I had to take a PRIVATE class! ALL because "public sector" people went on strike, etc... claiming it would DEVASTATE everything!

Steve

[Kay King]

I got the data from a govt site that broke down SSN check recipients by age.

Point I was making is simple - social security was designed as a program to aid retirement and potential disability of WORKERS. Various expansions of the program have occurred over the years.

Now, according to the govt site I read the tables/facts on (don't have the link and not going to look it up again - it's findable) the majority of people sent SS checks are NOT the RETIREES who paid into the system.

A neighbor of mine was happily surprised to find her SS was going to be more than double what she expected because the man she divorced 25 years ago had died. He was married three times - each time more than 10 years - and each of the three wives will receive lifetime benefits from his contribution...even though he's gone. He collected SS in full when he retired - then he died and now three women will collect a check each month. In the neighbor's case - the difference added was $800 per month...on top of her own SS payment.

Found one of the links

Monthly Statistical Snapshot, April 2012

Except for the divorced spouse thing - I'm not judging who should or should not qualify. BUT - when there's discussion of "can't afford it" I think what we can't afford should be the periphery programs first while the people who PAID are protected as long as possible.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Hmm. Not sure where you got that but from the SSA site:

In 2012, over 56 million Americans will receive $778 billion in Social Security benefits.
December 2011 Beneficiary Data

Retired workers 36 million $43.7 billion $1,229 average monthly benefit
dependents 2.9 million $ 1.8 billion

Disabled workers 8.6 million $ 9.5 billion $1,111 average monthly benefit
dependents 2 million $ .67 billion

Survivors 6.3 million $ 6.5 billion $1,185 average monthly benefit

Plus, I would think many of the survivors and disabled workers did actually pay into the system at some time.

Social Security Administration: Social Security Basic Facts

Tim,

Those numbers are OBVIOUSLY wrong or incomplete! Where are the welfare recipients, unemployment recipients, etc? THEY get money from the fund ALSO! Isn't like 7% ENOUGH? The suggested PERSONAL savings rate is 20% ABOVE that! 27%, with NO other tax! AND, since the 7% is basically thrown down the toilet, you need ANOTHER 7% to "break even". That is 34% or just over 1/3 of the economy. I was earlier not allowed to save 20%! The taxes ate up SO much! HECK, IRA funds only allowed $2000 or about 5% of average! YEP, 1/4 the suggested rate! Even TODAY, I am only saving about 12%. Luckily, I have a 401K now that allows more money.

Steve

[TimPhelan]

I believe we were talking about ss, not welfare, ssi, unemployment.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Tim,

Those numbers are OBVIOUSLY wrong or incomplete! Where are the welfare recipients, unemployment recipients, etc? THEY get money from the fund ALSO! Isn't like 7% ENOUGH? The suggested PERSONAL savings rate is 20% ABOVE that! 27%, with NO other tax! AND, since the 7% is basically thrown down the toilet, you need ANOTHER 7% to "break even". That is 34% or just over 1/3 of the economy. I was earlier not allowed to save 20%! The taxes ate up SO much! HECK, IRA funds only allowed $2000 or about 5% of average! YEP, 1/4 the suggested rate! Even TODAY, I am only saving about 12%. Luckily, I have a 401K now that allows more money.

Steve

[TimPhelan]

OK, I see. You were looking at SSI which is different from SS. SSI is not funded by the SS trust fund so none of the recipients are expected to have contributed to SS, although I would guess many have also. That link shows what I was saying which most SS recipients, by far, are retired workers who put into the system.

Originally Posted by Kay King

I got the data from a govt site that broke down SSN check recipients by age...

Found one of the links

Monthly Statistical Snapshot, April 2012

[seasoned]

Well, they have clearly put the SS into, and taken it from, the general fund, so NO DIFFERENCE! I don't care WHAT you want to call it. They have spoken of a "surplus" since I was a little kid even though they KNOW that is IMPOSSIBLE to know, unless they could see until the end of time. The ONLY reason it has lasted this long was that there was a baby boom, a huge rise in production, they lowered the benefits and increased the tax. Of course, the baby boom means that SOON, there will be a big NEED! There is now a drop in even the ABILITY to produce, and production dropped! The benefits are cut practically to the BONE! The average person with no other funds must live BELOW the poverty level! And the tax is HIGH, and the DEBT is only going HIGHER!

Steve

[TimPhelan]

Well, there is a difference if you are saying SS benefits are going mostly to those who haven't paid into the system and are using SSI statistics as your source.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, they have clearly put the SS into, and taken it from, the general fund, so NO DIFFERENCE! I don't care WHAT you want to call it.

Steve

[Patrician]

So they separated SSI from SS again? Good news.

So now immigrants who come here and then send for their elderly parents who never worked a day here - do they get SSI or SS?

Not to blame them but I distinctly associate the two things - doom and gloom about the future viability of SS and giving benefits to people who never worked here just because they are old. What was the rationalizaton for that again? (and I am not talking about the original immigrant who has worked here who is not dead or retired presumably and pays into SS - but their parents and relatives that come here after them).

(I am not saying leave them in the streets - but I don't think they have either a disability SSI or have paid into the fund SS). Maybe there could be another fund for them.

[TimPhelan]

Here's who can get SSI if they are non citizens:

Generally, if you are a noncitizen in one of certain immigration categories granted by the Department of Homeland Security, you may be eligible for SSI if:

*You were lawfully living in the United
States on August 22, 1996, and you are blind or disabled;
*You were receiving SSI on August 22, 1996, and you are lawfully living in the United States; or
*You were lawfully admitted for permanent residence under the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and have a total of 40 credits of work in the United States. (Your spouse’s or parent’s work also may count.)

Important
If you entered the United States on or after August 22, 1996, then you may not be eligible for SSI for the first five years as a lawfully admitted permanent resident even if you have 40 qualifying credits of earnings.

Some other noncitizens who may be eligible for SSI payments are:

*Active duty members of the U.S. armed forces;
*Noncitizen members of federally recognized Indian tribes;
*Certain noncitizens admitted as Amerasian immigrants; and
*Cuban/Haitian entrants under the Refugee Education Assistance Act.

There are other noncitizens who may be eligible for payments. If you are a noncitizen and want to apply for SSI benefits, it is best to contact us to see if you are eligible.

Social Security Publications

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Here's who can get SSI if they are non citizens:



Here's who can get SSI if they are non citizens:

Quote:
Generally, if you are a noncitizen in one of certain immigration categories granted by the Department of Homeland Security, you may be eligible for SSI if:

*You were lawfully living in the United
States on August 22, 1996, and you are blind or disabled;
*You were receiving SSI on August 22, 1996, and you are lawfully living in the United States; or

Even ILLEGAL aliens here prior to 8/23/1996 get SSI for LIFE!

*You were lawfully admitted for permanent residence under the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and have a total of 40 credits of work in the United States. (Your spouse’s or parent’s work also may count.)

If you are not a refugee. just 40 credits by any combination of several people allows you a free ticket, if you came in LAWFULLY!

*****QUESTION*****

WHY do illegal aliens get MORE rights that a LEGAL resident? ILLEGAL? You GET IT! LEGAL? You need a total of 40 work credits between the immediate family members.

Important
If you entered the United States on or after August 22, 1996, then you may not be eligible for SSI for the first five years as a lawfully admitted permanent resident even if you have 40 qualifying credits of earnings.

If you are an ILLEGAL ALIEN, you can get SSI. If you entered AFTER 8/22/1996, you MIGHT have to wait as much as 5 years!

Some other noncitizens who may be eligible for SSI payments are:

*Active duty members of the U.S. armed forces;

EVEN if an illegal alien!!!! WHY are illegal aliens even in the military?

*Noncitizen members of federally recognized Indian tribes;

Even with all the obvious lies spread. WOW! SO, does "Elizabeth Warren" get a second helping?

*Certain noncitizens admitted as Amerasian immigrants; and
*Cuban/Haitian entrants under the Refugee Education Assistance Act.

They don't even TRY to become citizens and contribute? WOW! I wonder if OTHER countries do that.

There are other noncitizens who may be eligible for payments. If you are a noncitizen and want to apply for SSI benefits, it is best to contact us to see if you are eligible.[/url]

Doesn't this make everything else meaningless? Of course, this basically says that some CITIZENS might not be entitled to SSI, but everyone else IS!

Illegal aliens prior to 8/23/1996 can get SSI! OTHER Illegal aliens MIGHT have to wait up to 5 years.

And the money in the US government is like a liquid. You can take an amount from ANYWHERE and the level of the whole, and available amount at ANY level DROPS! Social security is SUPPOSED to be different in that those REALLY entitled paid into it.

The government sloshes around making waves and tries to guess how much will spill out, and tries to collect every little drop. But they DON'T know how much will spill out, and there ARE leaks! What happens if it all goes down the drain?

Steve

[TimPhelan]

******ANSWER***********
They don't. It clearly says may be eligible.

What's your fixation on ILLEGALS? What I posted was about non citizens. That doesn't necessarily equate to illegals. By the way, I think by serving in the military non citizens are contributing to this country in a big way. What do have against them?

Originally Posted by seasoned

*****QUESTION*****

WHY do illegal aliens get MORE rights that a LEGAL resident? ILLEGAL? You GET IT! LEGAL? You need a total of 40 work credits between the immediate family members.

[Kay King]

I'm sick of bloated government (both sides)..I'm sick of people with their hands out (all of them)...and the word "illegal" should mean something. Most of all, I'm tired of people who don't examine issues, programs and policies but simply kick back with arguments that support their personal politics.

If you are claiming there are illegals serving in the military, get real. A naturalized citizen is still a "citizen".

There is SSI and SSDI - SSI is social security disability....and part of the problem.

SSDI is paid by taxpayers and also part of the problem.

I do not agree with SS or taxpayer money providing subsidies, retirement, medical, disability or anything else to someone who is in the country illegally. Period.

[TLTheLiberator]

Originally Posted by Kay King

I'm sick of bloated government (both sides)..I'm sick of people with their hands out (all of them)...and the word "illegal" should mean something. Most of all, I'm tired of people who don't examine issues, programs and policies but simply kick back with arguments that support their personal politics.

If you are claiming there are illegals serving in the military, get real. A naturalized citizen is still a "citizen".

There is SSI and SSDI - SSI is social security disability....and part of the problem.

SSDI is paid by taxpayers and also part of the problem.

I do not agree with SS or taxpayer money providing subsidies, retirement, medical, disability or anything else to someone who is in the country illegally. Period.

I agree with Kay on the part about illegals NOT receiving benefits.


TL

[TimPhelan]

Kay, you were the one who made a misquote about more people getting paid SS who haven't paid into the system than those who have retired and I was just pointing it out. No reason to get all "sick" about stuff.

By the way, SSDI pays benefits to you and certain members of your family if you are "insured," meaning that you worked long enough and paid Social Security taxes. What's the problem with disabled people who have paid into SS receiving benefits? SSDI is not paid for by the tax payers. It's a payroll tax funded program. Sorry, but that is another misquote you have made. Plus, how does pointing out your misquotes support my "personal politics"?

Originally Posted by Kay King

I'm sick of bloated government (both sides)..I'm sick of people with their hands out (all of them)...and the word "illegal" should mean something. Most of all, I'm tired of people who don't examine issues, programs and policies but simply kick back with arguments that support their personal politics.

If you are claiming there are illegals serving in the military, get real. A naturalized citizen is still a "citizen".

There is SSI and SSDI - SSI is social security disability....and part of the problem.

SSDI is paid by taxpayers and also part of the problem.

I do not agree with SS or taxpayer money providing subsidies, retirement, medical, disability or anything else to someone who is in the country illegally. Period.

[Patrician]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Here's who can get SSI if they are non citizens:
Social Security Publications

Tim do you have any stats on how much money is being spent for legal immigrants or 'non-citizens' benefits through our tax funded programs? (SS, SSI, whatever?)

Again I don't have a problem helping people out. I have a problem with money that the government insists I pay from every paycheck that is 'earmarked' for retirement benefits for AMERICAN TAXPAYING CITIZENS - and them turning around and giving it to somebody else who is none of the above and has NOT contributed.

It is like 'bait and switch' and it makes sense that if more people are sucking it dry than are contributing, it won't be there for what it was intended and REPRESENTED to be.

... and you know I have a problem with ILLEGALs getting anything but a ticket home.

If I as an American citizen do something ILLEGAL I am going to jail. Why is it that non-American citizens occupying our country ILLEGALLY do not have the same luxury?

What about 'EQUAL RIGHTS'?

(with that little drama over, I do not want to put them in jail, I just want them to go home and quit stealing).

[dallas playboy]

>Teachers are glorified babysitters who teach government-certified curriculum and turn out people who can barely read.<

Who taught you how to read, count, write?

> Police spend most of their time harassing people on the road and setting them up to pay ridiculous fines to pay their own salaries. Community volunteers are entirely capable of putting out fires.<

Where were you on 9/11 pal? Would you have" volunteered " to carry 100 pounds of
gear on your back, and climb 70 floors, to save strangers?

How about sharing with us how you risk your life to help your fellow citizens.

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by dallas playboy

>Teachers are glorified babysitters who teach government-certified curriculum and turn out people who can barely read.<

Who taught you how to read, count, write?

> Police spend most of their time harassing people on the road and setting them up to pay ridiculous fines to pay their own salaries. Community volunteers are entirely capable of putting out fires.<

Where were you on 9/11 pal? Would you have" volunteered " to carry 100 pounds of
gear on your back, and climb 70 floors, to save strangers?

How about sharing with us how you risk your life to help your fellow citizens.

I learned how to read and write before the education system was taken over by the department of education. Now teachers are pretty much glorified babysitters and the ones I know aren't happy about it.
If police (not all of them) didn't spend their time harassing people then Governor Coumo wouldn't have to redefine the NYS Cannabis laws to put a stop to it.
Using 9/11 to glorify all police and firefighters doesn't work.
Those that where there where heroes, but that instant doesn't make heroes out of all firefighters and cops.

[Patrician]

No but risking their lives going into burning buildings to save people everyday when they go to work and facing down armed criminals to protect our property and lives DOES make them heroes.

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by Patrician

No but risking their lives going into burning buildings to save people everyday when they go to work and facing down armed criminals to protect our property and lives DOES make them heroes.

I'm not saying it doesn't Pat. But the actions of some shouldn't be used as blanket protection to all.
Same goes for bad cops and firefighters.
We get two or more cases here almost every year of a volunteer firefighter starting a building fire or brush fire. We also have cases here of firefighters doing heroic things like risking their lives to save others.
We have one police department here where the police chief was caught running crack for his wife. Just this week a Troy cop was busted for sending obscene texts to a 14 year old girl.
What I'm saying is calling all firefighters and all cops heroes because of the actions of some of them is bull crap. The heroes are the heroes not every other Tom, Dick, and Harry who happen to wear the same uniform.

[Patrician]

That's true too, my friend.

Stereotypes are empty.

Not all cops and firefighters are saints but no reason to cut their benefits because of a few rotten apples.

... and conversely no reason to idolize them because most of them risk their lives saving others.

You know my real point and that is that politicians and legislators do not deserve or warrant the millions of dollars in benefits they take away.

There is absolutely not one thing they do that is heroic other than taking up a chair for 8 hours a day.

[Kay King]

Tim -

Everything I mentioned came straight from a govt website - don't be snide. It doesn't add credibility.

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by Patrician

That's true too, my friend.

Stereotypes are empty.

Not all cops and firefighters are saints but no reason to cut their benefits because of a few rotten apples.

... and conversely no reason to idolize them because most of them risk their lives saving others.

You know my real point and that is that politicians and legislators do not deserve or warrant the millions of dollars in benefits they take away.

There is absolutely not one thing they do that is heroic other than taking up a chair for 8 hours a day.

Agree 1,000%
It wasn't that long ago that John Stewart had to shame congress into giving the benefits to the sick 9/11 1st responders.
All cops and firefighters should have a decent retirement package when they retire that can't be touched or tampered with by anybody.
If they preform an act of heroism they should receive benefits above the normal package and if they are disabled by injury or illness in the line of duty then they should have everything including their families taken care of.

[TimPhelan]

Yes it did come from a gov site. However you misread the stats. Are you denying this? Or do you still not see your mistake? How have I been snide anyways? I pointed out a mistake you made and you get sick. :/ If you point out a mistake I make posting here, which I have done numerous times, I will thank you.

By the way, here's a mistake I made in my last post:

"SSDI is not paid for by the tax payers. It's a payroll tax funded program."

Of course that doesn't make sense at all and is wrong. What I meant was SSDI isn't paid for by normal income tax but is paid for by payroll taxes that are designated for SSDI. My bad.

Originally Posted by Kay King

Tim -

Everything I mentioned came straight from a govt website - don't be snide. It doesn't add credibility.

[TimPhelan]

I haven't found good stats on this Pat. It is an interesting question to me also. From what I can tell the legal immigrants who are not citizens is in the tens of millions range. What should be kept in mind is that you don't need to be a citizen to get a ss # and therefore non citizens do pay into the ss fund. Only noncitizens authorized to work in the United States by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) can get a Social Security number. However, it is estimated that as much as $9 billion SS taxes per year are coming from illegal immigrants.

Originally Posted by Patrician

Tim do you have any stats on how much money is being spent for legal immigrants or 'non-citizens' benefits through our tax funded programs? (SS, SSI, whatever?)

Again I don't have a problem helping people out. I have a problem with money that the government insists I pay from every paycheck that is 'earmarked' for retirement benefits for AMERICAN TAXPAYING CITIZENS - and them turning around and giving it to somebody else who is none of the above and has NOT contributed.

[Patrician]

Wow Tim - illegals are paying into SS that they may never get - wow. How do they do this without a SS #? Identity theft?

So let's see $106 billion per year that we spend on services for illegals, minus $9 billion - we are only out of pocket $95 billion on that one. I am impressed.

Seriously though, thanks for the information.

I have learned more here in the OT about the 'p' word than I ever knew before and you guys are all an awesome 'brain trust' to me. You have me interested (yeah it's a little late but better late than never).

[TLTheLiberator]

Originally Posted by Patrician

Wow Tim - illegals are paying into SS that they may never get - wow. How do they do this without a SS #? Identity theft?

So let's see $106 billion per year that we spend on services for illegals, minus $9 billion - we are only out of pocket $95 billion on that one. I am impressed.

Seriously though, thanks for the information.

I have learned more here in the OT about the 'p' word than I ever knew before and you guys are all an awesome 'brain trust' to me. You have me interested (yeah it's a little late but better late than never).

Pat,


Depending on how someone look at things, the equation could be closer to a wash.

One problem is who actually pays for the services to illegal aliens?

For example, perhaps our food nationwide is cheaper in many ways because of the illegals but...

... folks in states that have a lot of illegals like Cal., pay a greater share of the costs of services to illegals than folks that live in states without a lot of illegals.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi..._United_States


Here's a decent pro/con on the economic benefits of illegal immigration from a bunch of experts.

Is illegal immigration an economic burden to America? - Illegal Immigration - ProCon.org


I'm glad you've moved to a position of realizing that we really could use some type comprehensive immigration reform. ( if you're still there )

All The Best!!

TL

[Patrician]

I will never in a million years believe that illegal immigration is anything but a detriment and I don't care how many bean counters say differently. Amazing how the views (your link) are diametrically opposed - 6 of one and half dozen of the other - plus or minus a few billion either way.

It is not just a financial issue - however it certainly is one of the major problems with the illegal occupation of our country while our government looks the other way.

Therefore the only 'reform' I feel is appropriate would be to send them home (and fire the government).

period. end of conversation from here.

(I do support the use of green cards and guest workers) Play it fair.

With that said my loyalty is to Americans FIRST - they should all be able to get jobs in their own country FIRST -- and services we are giving to illegals should be given to Americans who are in need, instead.

'you can't give away more than you have'.

[TimPhelan]

I was wondering the same thing when I saw that figure. I'm guessing they just put in a number and the employer doesn't check or care if it is correct. Here's the link where I found that stat which is just a rough estimate.

Many illegal immigrants pay up at tax time - USATODAY.com

"The Social Security Administration estimates that about three-quarters of illegal workers pay taxes that contribute to the overall solvency of Social Security and Medicare.

The agency estimates that for 2005, the last year for which figures are available, about $9 billion in taxes was paid on about $75 billion in wages from people who filed W2 forms with incorrect or mismatched data, which would include illegal immigrants who drew paychecks under fake names and Social Security numbers.

Spokesman Mark Hinkle says Social Security does not know how much of the $9 billion can be attributed to illegal immigrants. The number is certainly not 100%, but a significant portion probably comes from taxes paid by illegal immigrants."

Hey, I'm not in favor of illegals getting benefits such as SSI either, even if some pay into the program.

Originally Posted by Patrician

Wow Tim - illegals are paying into SS that they may never get - wow. How do they do this without a SS #? Identity theft?

[Kay King]

I'm sorry - I'm not grateful for the few illegals who pay into the tax system. I saw an influx of illegals here after Katrina - they worked for cash under the table. Worked for roofers, landscapers, tree service companies, waste hauling, and construction companies. They were paid daily in cash. They weren't paying taxes of SSN.

The USA Today article from 2008 is a bit old - that's when people were fighting over the latest amnesty suggestions. It was popular that year to talk about all the "benefits" illegals bring with them. Right.

Border crossings these days are said to be way down - due to the poor economy here.

[TLTheLiberator]

Originally Posted by Patrician

I will never in a million years believe that illegal immigration is anything but a detriment and I don't care how many bean counters say differently.

Amazing how the views (your link) are diametrically opposed - 6 of one and half dozen of the other - plus or minus a few billion either way.

It is not just a financial issue - however it certainly is one of the major problems with the illegal occupation of our country while our government looks the other way.

Therefore the only 'reform' I feel is appropriate would be to send them home (and fire the government).

period. end of conversation from here.

(I do support the use of green cards and guest workers) Play it fair.

With that said my loyalty is to Americans FIRST - they should all be able to get jobs in their own country FIRST -- and services we are giving to illegals should be given to Americans who are in need, instead.

'you can't give away more than you have'.

LOL!

I told you there was a pro vs. con on the issue at the link.

We certainly don't need the extra crime they bring.

But I do remember you saying...

...you support some type of immigration reform where folks have a small window of time to make themselves known etc.?


OK, so you changed your position?


All The Best!!

TL

[ThomM]

Border crossings these days are said to be way down - due to the poor economy here.

I read that recently myself. The article I read also said that the illegals where heading home. Who knows in an election year what is happening for real though.

I've done a turn around on my views about immigration and illegals. I've always been in favor of legal immigration, but now I think the process should be made easier for those with any type of skill they bring with them.
Illegal immigration I still have an issue with, just not the illegals themselves. We need tighter controls at all our borders and stricter enforcement against those that hire illegals. Plus of course, better legal immigration laws.
I don't buy into the "chicken little" crap about no one will do the jobs the illegals do. All that is is an excuse not to do anything about the problem.
Originally I was against any type on amnesty for illegals, but now I can see where amnesty for those who are here working and being a productive member of society could be a good thing.

[Patrician]

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

But I do remember you saying...

...you support some type of immigration reform where folks have a small window of time to make themselves known etc.?

OK, so you changed your position?

All The Best!!

TL

You are right I did say that and I still would. Only for the reason of 'the path of least resistance' and doing anything we could to get rid of as many as possible. Having them turn legal would be getting rid of the 'illegal' problem as well as at the same time (in my wildest dream) create a situation where the ones who do not apply are rounded up and ousted. *particularly the criminal element (crimes on top of being here illegally).

As I said there are other issues besides financial ones - in fact one of the things that drives me into a frenzy is where it seems nobody speaks English at least where you can understand them. It's on the phone, at every store, it's just everywhere.

They have overdone this legal or illegal wave after wave after wave to the point that I feel like a foreigner in my own country. I remember when we used to be proud that we welcomed people to come here and genuinely meant it.

Who knew that what we always thought was a mythical 'boogey man' = "creeping communism" in my youth would become a reality.

(oh I forgot I left this conversation - hello. I will probably still talk after I am dead).

[petry]

I will vote on their behalf,firefighters.Our firefighters volunteer,this could be a big factor also.So many politics about public service.Talk about it more,expose it!Diggit

[TLTheLiberator]

Originally Posted by Patrician

You are right I did say that and I still would. Only for the reason of 'the path of least resistance' and doing anything we could to get rid of as many as possible. Having them turn legal would be getting rid of the 'illegal' problem as well as at the same time (in my wildest dream) create a situation where the ones who do not apply are rounded up and ousted. *particularly the criminal element (crimes on top of being here illegally).

As I said there are other issues besides financial ones - in fact one of the things that drives me into a frenzy is where it seems nobody speaks English at least where you can understand them. It's on the phone, at every store, it's just everywhere.

They have overdone this legal or illegal wave after wave after wave to the point that I feel like a foreigner in my own country. I remember when we used to be proud that we welcomed people to come here and genuinely meant it.

Who knew that what we always thought was a mythical 'boogey man' = "creeping communism" in my youth would become a reality.

(oh I forgot I left this conversation - hello. I will probably still talk after I am dead).

Pat, I hear the first part of your post and it's good to know you're still on board but what do you mean when you speak of "creeping communism" ?

All The Best!!


TL

[lcombs]

This is related but not about taxpayers.
The city of Cincinnati is laying off 144 police officers and demoting 160
more in order to save $10 million.
Yet, they are receiving $120 million to build a damn street car
that will lose money to run.

[LegionNate]

I hear some people complaining about the pay of Congress. Fine. I don't like them anymore then the next guy, but even reducing the pay of these 500+ people, including the Senate, to $0, won't put a dent in anything.

I too blame pensions of ALL government workers. Honestly, I think it's pretty presumptuous to believe that not only do you deserve to make a salary off of the backs of the hard-working tax payers, but that they should have to pay your pension for decades afterwords, when they had to earn and save and put away for their own retirements?

I will leave a LITTLE leeway for police in regards to earning a salary, but NOT a pension, go save and invest like everyone else. No leeway for teachers. Privatize the whole thing.

My friend has been trying to get a job as a CA firefighter for years. Why can't he get one? Simple supply and demand. Way too many people would LOVE to have that job because the pay is way too awesome, pension is way too awesome and with very rare exceptions through out the year, the job is just cushy; sitting around, working out, sleeping at the station, etc.

There is no public job I would ever take, simply out of guilt. I don't expect to earn a living from your tax dollars.

[TLTheLiberator]

For the labor haters out there...


"If any man tell you he loves America yet hates labor he is a liar. If any man tell you he trusts America yet fears labor, he is a fool."

- Abraham Lincoln