ClickBank Making Unauthorized Refunds

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I just wondered if anyone else has had this problem with ClickBank.

I have several accounts with them, one I opened recently and it's doing very well. I've only had 2 refunds on this account and BOTH were done by ClickBank without my permission and with strange reasons.

Here is my enquiry about the latest one:

I see on my account, that a refund was issued to a customer, ref:XXXXXXX. I was not contacted about this in any way. Why was a refund issued to a customer without notifying me first and giving me a chance to save the sale? I received no communication about this whatsoever. Please explain.

Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry! This order was refunded by ClickBank's Risk Operation Department. When refunds like this occur, we do no send a notification, as it is not a customer that is requesting it. The only time ClickBank's system would refund it like this is to prevent any possible fraudulent activity that might come from this customer. Although a notification is not sent, it is recorded in the Transactions page.

Your reply doesn't even make sense. A customer bought my product. The customer did not ask for a refund. ClickBank refunded the customers money, even though the customer was happy with the product. The reason for the refund? The customer was considered fraudulent. Please explain the fraud you thought was occurring and why you thought a refund, without my permission and without the customer requesting it, would solve the issue. This is a relatively new account and this is the second time a refund has been issued without my permission. I am beginning to think that it is ClickBank who are acting fraudulently.

I haven't yet had a reply to my latest question to them, but I suspect it will be pretty much in the same vein as the response they've already given me, which means vague and ridiculous.


Has anyone else had this occur to them with ClickBank? I am just so p***ed off with them doing this to me twice. Although the first refund, without my knowledge was because they made a mistake and forgot to send me an email...apparently. I asked for my money crediting back to my account on that occasion, but their reply was:

Unfortunately, we do not have a way to credit your account for the refunded amount, and we do not have a way to reverse the refund now that it has been issued. Therefore, the only other option I can offer to you is that we would waive your next activation fee if you open another account. It looks like you activated your other accounts quite some time ago, but if you want to open another one, then the $29.95 discounted activation fee will be waived.

I feel like ClickBank are really conning me. I've had no trouble with my other accounts but this one is a real problem and them saying that the customer was acting fraudulently, is stupid.

BTW, the original purchase was 3 weeks prior to the refund and the customer paid by PayPal.
#clickbank #clickbank account
  • Profile picture of the author writesuccess
    Update: The latest reply from ClickBank is:

    ClickBank's patented security system monitors all transactions that are issued through ClickBank. This security system flagged the purchase as fraudulent, and refunded it automatically. There is no other cause to this refund.

    Well that explains everything, doesn't it?

    Also I noted that in the Clickbank Refunds Policy document, it lists several different reasons as to why they can make an unauthorised refund on a vendors account including the last reason (which really sleighs me) "For any other reason ClickBank deems appropriate." That really is a catch-all isn't it?

    I'm going to move all my accounts to another company. I've had enough of ClickBank and their underhand tactics. They can't even explain how giving someone my product for free helps to stop fraud - that is, fraud they can't explain.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Clickbank has a liberal refund policy - but sellers know that when they sign up. A customer can go straight to CB for a refund and your permission as a seller is not required. You agree to that when you use CB.

      Actually "fraudulent" does explain clearly. Fraudulent can be unauthorized use of a credit card - a card that is flagged for some reason, etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by writesuccess View Post

      Well that explains everything, doesn't it?
      I appreciate that you meant this question sarcastically, but actually it does more or less explain it, yes.

      What they're telling you (only not quite "in terms", for legal reasons) is that they have reason to suspect that the credit-card (or its number/details) was stolen. In such cases they wisely process the refund themselves, and there isn't yet a customer request to refer to the vendor. That's all.

      I whine quite a lot, myself, about ClickBank's occasional stupidities and sometimes awful customer service, but let's give them credit here for handling these situations attentively and pro-actively, which I think they generally do. ClickBank does sometimes make unauthorized refunds, and that's a good thing, not a bad thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    Clickbank doesn't need your 'authorization' to make a refund. They're the seller, you aren't. They may do you the courtesy of sending you an email when a customer requests a refund, but that's their prerogative.
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  • Profile picture of the author Eidolon
    Clickbank is a facilitator - and their first concern is the protection of their facilitation agreements. This is their only asset and everything else comes second. Not a very secure place to be if you are a vendor. I don't use them anymore - rather using other facilitators who are less cavalier with refunds
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  • Profile picture of the author speedbird
    The likelihood of why the refund was made is that the customer may have ordered a refund. PayPal tries to protect the interests of both parties even after a transaction has been made.
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    • Profile picture of the author writesuccess
      In this case their email stated "When refunds like this occur, we do no send a notification, as it is not a customer that is requesting it."

      They also said it they refunded the payment to "prevent any possible fraudulent activity that might come from this customer."

      And, SteveJohnson, I AM the seller. ClickBank is merely a payment processor, or at least they're supposed to be.

      It also bothers me that the refund (if they did in fact issue the refund to the customer) was made over 3 weeks after the purchase. After such a long time surely any fraud should have been already detected.

      Either way, I won't be using ClickBank for much longer, even though I have several accounts with them and I've been doing business with them for years. I've had enough.

      This is the second unauthorised refund on this account in just a few weeks. The first was because they sent me an email saying that they had refunded a purchase. I queried it and asked why they didn't allow me the usual 24-hour window to save the sale. They replied the next day and said whoops, they sent the wrong email and I should have been sent the email that said I had the 24-hour window, but it was too late because - and get this - I should have realised the wrong email had been sent and saved the sale anyway, but now the 24 hours was up so they had NOW refunded the sale. And as explained before, they said it was physically impossible for any of their staff to credit the money back to my account.
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by writesuccess View Post

        ...

        And, SteveJohnson, I AM the seller. ClickBank is merely a payment processor, or at least they're supposed to be.

        ...
        Huh? In what universe? Did you get paid by the buyer? No...........

        CB is an affiliate network. They're the seller, you're the vendor. They buy from you, sell to a customer. It's really pretty simple.
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        • Profile picture of the author writesuccess
          Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

          Huh? In what universe? Did you get paid by the buyer? No...........

          CB is an affiliate network. They're the seller, you're the vendor. They buy from you, sell to a customer. It's really pretty simple.
          An affiliate network simply means a group (network) of products affiliates can sell, all in one place. It doesn't mean the network owns the products. The sellers still own the products. the network is just a gateway.

          And ClickBank have never bought my products from me. I still own them. Retail stores purchase products and sell them on. ClickBank sells my products for a commission. It's like selling stuff on eBay. You still own the products. eBay gets a commission for giving you somewhere to sell them and handling the payments.

          Here is a quote from walnut-media.com. They describe ClickBank as a "3rd party payment processor."

          But it really doesn't matter. Potatoes, Potartoes. Tomatoes, Tomartoes. I am just ticked off because they took money from my account without even notifying me. The money just disappeared.

          And as for the first unauthorised refund that happened because they sent me the wrong email and then blamed me for not realising their mistake, well, that was simply too much as well.

          As I said, I've been working with ClickBank for quite a few years now and have several accounts. This account has only been up and running for a few weeks and has already hit two pot holes in the road, so to speak. The product is selling really well, but the 2 'iffy' refunds are really sticking in my gut.

          But I'm grateful for all the replies on this forum. The people here have been far better at explaining things than the ClickBank employees.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by writesuccess View Post

            An affiliate network simply means a group (network) of products affiliates can sell, all in one place. It doesn't mean the network owns the products. The sellers still own the products. the network is just a gateway.

            And ClickBank have never bought my products from me. I still own them. Retail stores purchase products and sell them on. ClickBank sells my products for a commission. It's like selling stuff on eBay. You still own the products. eBay gets a commission for giving you somewhere to sell them and handling the payments.
            ALL totally WRONG! They DID buy the products from you! It is a business model that dates back HUNDREDS of years!!!!!! Ever hear of CONSIGNMENT? Consignment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

            Here is a quote from walnut-media.com. They describe ClickBank as a "3rd party payment processor."
            So walnut-media doesn't know what they are talking about. "3rd party payment whatevers" DON'T have affiliate programs like this, directly sell your product, and handle all taxes. and ALL such companies WILL do chargebacks! PAYPAL does ALSO! What's your point?

            But it really doesn't matter. Potatoes, Potartoes. Tomatoes, Tomartoes. I am just ticked off because they took money from my account without even notifying me. The money just disappeared.
            It's IMPOSSIBLE for them to take money. They took BACK "money". It wasn't even money, it was a CREDIT!

            And as for the first unauthorised refund that happened because they sent me the wrong email and then blamed me for not realising their mistake, well, that was simply too much as well.
            HOW did sending you the wrong email cause such a situation?

            As I said, I've been working with ClickBank for quite a few years now and have several accounts. This account has only been up and running for a few weeks and has already hit two pot holes in the road, so to speak. The product is selling really well, but the 2 'iffy' refunds are really sticking in my gut.

            But I'm grateful for all the replies on this forum. The people here have been far better at explaining things than the ClickBank employees.
            A lot of "tech/customer support" people are lucky if they memorize ONE stupid script.

            If it has sold SO well, and you only got TWO chargebacks, BE HAPPY!!!!!! Theft happens and SOME people buy ANYTHING from places like clickbank just to test stolen cards! Be happy this wasn't a PHYSICAL product. In the end, you MADE money!

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author writesuccess
              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              So walnut-media doesn't know what they are talking about. "3rd party payment whatevers" DON'T have affiliate programs like this
              e-Junkie does.







              Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

              HOW did sending you the wrong email cause such a situation?
              I explained this earlier:

              This is the second unauthorised refund on this account in just a few weeks. The first was because they sent me an email saying that they had refunded a purchase. I queried it and asked why they didn't allow me the usual 24-hour window to save the sale. They replied the next day and said whoops, they sent the wrong email and I should have been sent the email that said I had the 24-hour window, but it was too late because - and get this - I should have realised the wrong email had been sent and saved the sale anyway, but now the 24 hours was up so they had NOW refunded the sale.

              Wow, Seasoned, you sure do love ClickBank. I'm glad you're not standing in front of me with a gun or you might shoot me.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by writesuccess View Post

                They replied the next day and said whoops, they sent the wrong email and I should have been sent the email that said I had the 24-hour window, but it was too late because - and get this - I should have realised the wrong email had been sent and saved the sale anyway, but now the 24 hours was up so they had NOW refunded the sale.

                Wow, Seasoned, you sure do love ClickBank. I'm glad you're not standing in front of me with a gun or you might shoot me.
                WOW, you're right about the email. If you got the wrong email HOW would you know there was a right one. Computers were created to prevent such things.

                The refund deal is right though. Once you have issued a credit, or voided the sale, you can't get it back. Creating a NEW credit, whch is the ONLY option, is problematic and you have no real leg to stand on, so it is almost NEVER done.

                I DON'T love clickbank, I hte it when people feel that a charge is a charge NOT only because it is wrong and illegal, but that so many scammers have the same mindset.

                Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by writesuccess View Post

            An affiliate network simply means a group (network) of products affiliates can sell, all in one place. It doesn't mean the network owns the products. The sellers still own the products. the network is just a gateway.

            And ClickBank have never bought my products from me. I still own them. Retail stores purchase products and sell them on. ClickBank sells my products for a commission. It's like selling stuff on eBay. You still own the products. eBay gets a commission for giving you somewhere to sell them and handling the payments.

            Here is a quote from walnut-media.com. They describe ClickBank as a "3rd party payment processor."

            But it really doesn't matter. Potatoes, Potartoes. Tomatoes, Tomartoes. I am just ticked off because they took money from my account without even notifying me. The money just disappeared.

            And as for the first unauthorised refund that happened because they sent me the wrong email and then blamed me for not realising their mistake, well, that was simply too much as well.

            As I said, I've been working with ClickBank for quite a few years now and have several accounts. This account has only been up and running for a few weeks and has already hit two pot holes in the road, so to speak. The product is selling really well, but the 2 'iffy' refunds are really sticking in my gut.

            But I'm grateful for all the replies on this forum. The people here have been far better at explaining things than the ClickBank employees.
            I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or if you're really not grasping this.

            Clickbank has a network of affiliates (hence affiliate network) that promote products provided by vendors (you) and sells them to the end consumer. They are not a "gateway". They don't earn a "commission". They earn a profit on the difference between what they sell it for and what they pay for it. The reason you let Clickbank sell your product is that gives your product exposure to the thousands and thousands of Clickbank affiliates who may promote it.

            You don't take the money from the end consumer. Clickbank does. Then, if they decide to give that consumer a refund, they deduct it from what they owe you. WalMart works the same way. You actually think they pay for their stock in advance?
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  • Profile picture of the author GX8
    I didn't think that Clickbank needed authorization to make a refund either
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Write success,

    Clickbank is NOT a payment processor! That is a legal credit industry term, and even PAYPAL isn't actually a payment processor. At BEST, they are a gateway! Clickbank is using their OWN account! That is usually ILLEGAL and use like this could, among other possible things, lead to having the account REVOKED! I don't know how companys like paypal do it, but one major competitor said they got a special license for like $10,000(at the time). Clickbank was among the first to do this.

    They ARE legally the seller! They call you a vendor, kind of like THEIR vendor. To them, you are like HP is to walmart, and they are walmart.

    BTW

    PROCESSOR <--batches transactions sent over a special network, and processes them at the bank level. (FDMS, Nova, Global, Total are processors)
    ISSUER <-- Issues what is known as a merchant account, that is often with a bank. It tells the processor what to do.
    GATEWAY<-- Connects the internet up to the special network mentioned earlier.(authorize.net, payflow are two PURE gateways)
    MERCHANT/SELLER<-- Usually has the merchant account, etc...
    CLICKBANK VENDOR<-- Provides something to clickbank which THEY SELL, COLLECT MONEY FOR, HANDLE REFUNDS, HANDLE TAXES, ETC....

    Do YOU pay VAT tax, etc... on sales to europe? NO, CLICKBANK does! Do YOU issue 1099s to US citizens, if you are in the US? NO, CLICKBANK DOES! WHY? THEY are the legal vendor. WHO takes the risk of financial LOSS POTENTIALLY in the multiple millions and loss of their ability? CLICKBANK!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW they COULD have detected prior, or subsequent activity on the SAME IP in quick succession that was fradulent or suspicious in some way. They could have seen a pattern in mistakes. They could have noticed it had AVS that was not coming up clean enough. ANY of these would flag it as potential fraud. For patterns, computers aren't really good at that unless programed in a way that could have false hits. You CAN'T require AVS because, I believe, it only works in the US. HECK, they may have noticed a person in the US using a card that didn't have AVS, and investigated. Maybe an address didn't exist. There are many checks that could have been done.

    In any event, it is THEIR account! THEY have the risk! THEY have the final say! You want to change things? Get a merchant account, and use a PURE gateway. Don't come back here crying if they close it down though.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    And ClickBank have never bought my products from me. I still own them. Retail stores purchase products and sell them on. ClickBank sells my products for a commission. It's like selling stuff on eBay. You still own the products. eBay gets a commission for giving you somewhere to sell them and handling the payments.
    Clickbank doesn't own your product but they are the seller. This is why they handle refunds, taxes, etc. like Seasoned mentioned.

    They sell the product to the end user and then give you the wholesale price you agreed to sell your product to Clickbank for.

    Maybe they can explain it better:

    1. https://www.clickbank.com/accounting.html

    Products sold through ClickBank have a retail and wholesale price. Vendors recommend a suggested retail price for their Products (within limits defined by ClickBank) during Product creation. The lowest price for which ClickBank will sell a standard Product is $3.00, and the lowest price for which ClickBank will sell a recurring billing Product is $4.95 for initial purchases and $7.95 for rebills. ClickBank also defines the maximum price for a Product when a Vendor submits the Product for approval. Once ClickBank reviews the suggested retail price from the Vendor, the final retail price is set (please refer to the Client Contract for more information).
    At the time of purchase by a customer, ClickBank purchases the Product from the applicable Vendor at a wholesale price, which can vary by Product type, price, and currency, and resells the Product to the customer.
    2. Note here that they can sell your product at any price they want to. They don't have to honor your $19.95 price - they could sell it for $39 or $6.

    https://www.clickbank.com/terms.html

    Without further conditions or limitations, You authorize ClickBank to list any Product You register for sale via the ClickBank Services in the online, searchable marketplace of Products made available via the ClickBank Services (the "ClickBank Marketplace"); and make it available for sale to Purchasers and/or for the persons and/or entities that advertise and Promote the Products made available via the ClickBank Marketplace ("Affiliates") to Promote at the price designated by ClickBank ("Retail Price") after taking into consideration Your suggestions regarding such Retail Price, including any applicable sales tax.
    In other words, none of the refunds were unauthorized. The seller has the right to refund who (or is it whom?) they wish.

    Hope that helps.
    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author writesuccess
      Yeah, it does help, Mark Singletary. But despite the fact that the accounts policy states that at the point of sale (and at no other time) ClickBank Buys a product and sells it on, is just a way of of wording things so that ClickBank feel like they are in charge. In the end my account shows that I sold my product through ClickBank and they charged $1 plus a fee to sell it.

      Many people here do seem very passionate about the perceived virtues of ClickBank, but this whole experience has made me wary, and the more I read on this thread about ClickBank policies, the less I want to work with them.

      And Seasoned, I am happy that I'm making sales, but I am still unhappy about underhand tactics of ClickBank removing money from my account without my knowledge. Something just feels very slimy about that and it just doesn't sit right with me.

      But starting this thread and reading all the answers (even though it seemed like many people were screaming at me) has been a good eye-opener.

      Thanks guys (and gals).
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        Originally Posted by writesuccess View Post

        even though it seemed like many people were screaming at me
        If you're talking about Seasoned and **HIS** way of WRITING!!!! - don't give it another thought. That's just his style - he doesn't mean anything negative by it the great, great majority of the time.

        And much of the time he is right but it's hard to follow his logic sometimes. In this case, he probably cares less about Clickbank than he does about the understanding of the difference between various types of merchant/3rd party/vendor/affiliate relationships - more of an intellectual argument than anything else.

        He's actually toned it down lately compared to many moons ago when he first started posting.

        Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    When you run a company similar to clickbank there are only a few ways you can protect yourself from the big credit-card companies. One way is to do like clickbank does and refund liberally. It saves them from inevitable chargeback fees. And I'm sure the protection software they are using is helping them to cut down on their chargeback fees. It sucks sometimes if you're a clickbank vendor, but that's only if you haven't learned to compensate for it.

    I much prefer Clickbank's method of liberal refunding. They could be like paypal and just freeze your account.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dellco
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