About Taxes

[seasoned]

This isn't meant to be political, but I thought it was interesting. Mitt Romney released the last two years tax returns. Taxable income is about 75% which i think is reasonable. A lot of that helps others or goes to other taxes.

As a base of reference, in 2011, for my own tax, I paid 19.366% on federal.

And ROMNEY?

In 2010 13.904%
In 2011 21.210%

MAN are his returns HUGE! Mine are about 65 pages. His 2011 was shorter than 2010, and was only about 104 pages! But WOW, I paid less of a percentage of federal taxes than HE did! MINE was 5 digits(tens of thousands), and his was 7 digits(millions) though.

Derived from Mitt Romney's 1040 tax return for 2011 - Boston.com

BTW regarding states, I can tell you for a FACT that they DO find out from the federal government. So you can't very well file one without the other, or go public without filing.

BTW he apparently paid FOREIGN tax also, and got a lot from investments.

Steve

[Chris Worner]

Unless I am mistaken, Mitt Romney's earnings come under capital gains which is taxed at a lower rate to encourage investment. You will find that there are many other well to do people who come under this tax bracket as well.

Basically your paying tax on income derived from previously taxed sources. You could think of it as a double-dip tax.

-Chris

[MoneyMagnetMagnate]

What I find tricky...(and sneaky, though legal) is Romney apparently has in the past donated stock to the LDS church, that he acquired through Bain capital acquisitions...
Example: you get stock low at say, .43/sh - build the company, stock now worth 2.62/sh...if you sell, you have to pay capital gains of 2.19/sh - but if you donate it to your church at full value, you take the charitable donation write-off, and you didn't have to pay capital gains tax. - you probably just saved 2 million bucks...AND satisfied your 10% tithing agreement.

The church gets the stock and sells it for current face value...(tax free)

Plus - you flip the company literally lock, stock, and barrel...you took the assets, and wrote off the liabilities - and the stock you would have still had might now be worthless...


don't you just love loopholes?

(not to mention 'offshore assets')

[TimPhelan]

Naw, why in the world would you think Mitt Romney's taxes would be political!? haha

Originally Posted by seasoned

This isn't meant to be political,

[TimPhelan]

Nope. It's not a double dip tax. That's a myth. You never pay capital gains tax on the principle investment. Only on earning and why shouldn't you be taxed? Earnings from investments is income. So, if you make money and invest it in a business, should any profits you make from that business be taxed? Of course it should. Is that double dipping taxing? Of course not. Same thing with other investments.

Originally Posted by Chris Worner

Basically your paying tax on income derived from previously taxed sources. You could think of it as a double-dip tax.

-Chris

[TLTheLiberator]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Nope. It's not a double dip tax.

That's a myth. You never pay capital gains tax on the principle investment.

Only on earning and why shouldn't you be?


Earnings from investments is income.

So, if you make money and invest it in a business, should any profits you make from that business be taxed?


Of course it should.

Is that double dipping taxing? Of course not. Same thing with other investments.

That false assertion also stopped me when I first read it.


BTW...


IMHO...

There should no longer be a tax lower rate for so-called investment income.

TL

[Ken_Caudill]

Your earnings are taxed. When you invest the money the feds leave you, they tax the return on that, too.

Is there anything misleading about that? Is that a false assertion?

If you believe you should send the government more money, by all means do so. Leave the rest of us alone.

[Kurt]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Naw, why in the world would you think Mitt Romney's taxes would be political!? haha

Hey...I like this concept. Just preface anything with "this isn't meant to be ____ " and we can say anything we want!

seasoned...This isn't meant to be mean, but...

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate

What I find tricky...(and sneaky, though legal) is Romney apparently has in the past donated stock to the LDS church, that he acquired through Bain capital acquisitions...
Example: you get stock low at say, .43/sh - build the company, stock now worth 2.62/sh...if you sell, you have to pay capital gains of 2.19/sh - but if you donate it to your church at full value, you take the charitable donation write-off, and you didn't have to pay capital gains tax. - you probably just saved 2 million bucks...AND satisfied your 10% tithing agreement.

The church gets the stock and sells it for current face value...(tax free)

Plus - you flip the company literally lock, stock, and barrel...you took the assets, and wrote off the liabilities - and the stock you would have still had might now be worthless...


don't you just love loopholes?

(not to mention 'offshore assets')

Yeah, a lot of people do that. I bet a number of microsoft employees did that. They get , or at least DID get, warrants. The Warrant, though free, and not really stock, might actually be considered stock for purposes of a donation. Of course, I think they got stock also.

I HEARD that the mormon church DEMANDS at least a tenth. MOST people are sneaky, and some that seem violently against such things often turn out to be the biggest culprits.

Steve

[Chris Worner]

Originally Posted by seasoned

I HEARD that the mormon church DEMANDS at least a tenth.

Steve

It is called a tithe

-Chris

[seasoned]

Well, there HAVE been questions about how much/little millionares pay, I let all know it was out there. So this is romneys.

As for investments and business, you have a lot of expenses that should count against income. In fact, they limited the old concept that expenses were expenses. So you can't count a loss unless there is an offsetting profit in the same class.

Steve

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Chris Worner

It is called a tithe

-Chris

WOW, that was quick. YEAH, it is an old concept. Other churches often ask you to give at least that, but it isn't like they will kick you out if you don't.

And I was astounded at this whole thing. My taxes take quite a while, but I never checked the pages. I admit t, I use tax cut. His 2010 is, as I recall, over 200 pages. YIKES.

Steve

[TLTheLiberator]

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Your earnings are taxed. When you invest the money the feds leave you, they tax the return on that, too.

Is there anything misleading about that? Is that a false assertion?

If you believe you should send the government more money, by all means do so. Leave the rest of us alone.

If you don't invest and then make money with the money you earned say from normal income, then you are not ...


...double taxed.


They tax only the profit you make on an investment - if you make a profit.


Once again...

You are not taxed on the principle of an investment, you are taxed only on the profit of an investment - if there is a profit.


The profit on an investment is also income that should to be taxed just like any other income and as far as I'm concerned investment income should now be taxed at the same rate as other income.


So, according to the USA tax system...


It is in fact a false/untrue belief and/or assertion...


... if someone believes they are double taxed just because they make an investment that makes a profit and they have to pay a tax on the profit of the investment.


What's so hard to understand about that?


Maybe Chris was talking about the "estate tax" - how USA folks are taxed when we die if our estates are valued over a certain amount AKA known as the death tax.


Let's get basic facts straight so that we can have discussions grounded in reality.


TL

[TimPhelan]

And in years before he was running for president? How about 0%? For ten years? Hmmmmmm?

Originally Posted by seasoned

And ROMNEY?

In 2010 13.904%
In 2011 21.210%

[TLTheLiberator]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

And in years before he was running for president? How about 0%? For ten years? Hmmmmmm?

If someone who was not a fellow Mormon like Harry Reid would have made that charge regarding Willards' alleged non-payment of taxes, I would not have been surprised if Willard would have pulled the anti-Mormon card out.

But since a fellow Mormon is making the charge, the anti-Mormon charge would be null and void.

Tim, according to a Rachael Madow report on Friday...

... during his run for Mass. Governor Willard wouldn't release his tax returns ( while everybody else did )...

...but made a big deal about his final dem opponent not releasing her husbands' returns while still refusing to release his own.


Will he or won't he? (release more years of his tax returns)

That is the question.

All The Best!!

TL

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

And in years before he was running for president? How about 0%? For ten years? Hmmmmmm?

Gee, I was just audited because of a stupid mistake the government made decades ago. I figured it would happen sooner or later. They said I made over $13K last year that I DIDN'T! They pulled EVERY trick in the book, and sent me a bill for over $14K! Anyway, if Romney failed to report, they would think he made MILLIONS he didn't. The idea of a US citizen investing, not reporting for years, running for president, and not getting caught, is hard to believe. Where is the IRS in all of this? THEY know the answer.

Steve

[seasoned]

WOW TL, I did NOT know that! My opinions about Mormons are now 100% DIFFERENT! I remved my comment accordingly. As for being against Mormons, Romney has not made that charge about obamas attacks, or ANY others, WHY would he make it against Reid, even if he were a satanist. It is a common request anyway. Generally not 10 years, but common.

When I was a kid people remarked that the only person that successfully ran for president that didn't claim to be a protestant was kennedy, who was catholic. So romney should know that is a mark against him in a presidential race. I HAVE heard it mentioned, and there were some articles about it, but otherwise....

Steve

[MoneyMagnetMagnate]

If we want to see Romney's tax returns, we can always put magic stones into a hat and read them that way...(of course, it may be subject to interpretation.)

[Dave Patterson]

Originally Posted by MoneyMagnetMagnate

If we want to see Romney's tax returns, we can always put magic stones into a hat and read them that way...(of course, it may be subject to interpretation.)

Heck with that...I want to see his birth certificate.

[TLTheLiberator]

Originally Posted by seasoned

WOW TL, I did NOT know that! My opinions about Mormons are now 100% DIFFERENT! I remved my comment accordingly. As for being against Mormons, Romney has not made that charge about obamas attacks, or ANY others, WHY would he make it against Reid, even if he were a satanist. It is a common request anyway. Generally not 10 years, but common.

When I was a kid people remarked that the only person that successfully ran for president that didn't claim to be a protestant was kennedy, who was catholic. So romney should know that is a mark against him in a presidential race. I HAVE heard it mentioned, and there were some articles about it, but otherwise....

Steve

OK, perhaps I'm guilty of over-speculation.


LOL!


TL

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by seasoned

Mine are about 65 pages. His 2011 was shorter than 2010, and was only about 104 pages!

WTF!?

Is that normal over there?

[MoneyMagnetMagnate]

Originally Posted by Thomas

WTF!?

Is that normal over there?

You should see the 'instruction guides'...

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Thomas

WTF!?

Is that normal over there?

PROBABLY! Taxes HERE are SO complicated, because we have like 9 different BASE forms!

The FIRST I would discuss is the Alternative Minimum tax. That says RIP ME OFF, but don't hurt TOO much! IT is SUPER SIMPLE, and SHORT!

The second is the 1040ez. Don't you LOVE the name? EASY, GET IT? That says "I wan't to maybe get a better deal, than the AMT, but I want to do it QUICKLY!". It is longer, but it is still not that great. Actually, as I recall, you have to do AT LEAST this if you do the AMT.

The third is the 1040a. which is more complicated but fairer. It is also LONGER.

THEN there is the 1040. How long is IT? WHO KNOWS? That is what I file. It asks you to file other forms for exemptions, and they may require backup documentation.

They are NOT easy. A number of companies sell programs to try to simplify it. ALSO, every state is different. and perhaps 46+ of the 50 states charge income tax. Sometimes I have done the federal tax AND 5 or 6 STATES!!!!!!!!!

There are others for residents, departing aliens, estimated for farmers etc, self employment, etc... I think they are similar to the 1040, in how they work. Obviously, for simplicity, they ALL have the 1040 designation. The letters following are the important part.

And I wonder how many poor people use the simpler forms that may assess more tax for them. The tax rate is the same for all of them, but what you can deduct varies. So you could make say $30,000. Suppose that nearly all of it is for business of some sort, education, etc.... And then you could put a certain amount in a 401K and, after the exemption, find that you don't owe ANY tax. That gets harder to do as you make more, etc.... But it could certainly be done by poorer people. Richer people tend to pay less by putting money overseas, having some protected vehicles, and donating and investing money. Of course some DO cheat. That tends to be easier if you have lots of SMALL income checks from companies, or do a lot of cash business with individuals.

OH YEAH, EACH form has its OWN instruction packet! File a 1040, and you have the instructions for IT and all the attached schedules, etc.... You may have to read SEVERAL books that are EACH DOZENS of pages!

Steve