Another Shooting Rampage This Time In Wisconsin

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It's happened again.


That's twice in the last 5 weeks.



Wisconsin Shooter Identified as U.S. Army Veteran.


Is this the start of a new phenomenon in the U.S.?


Also a pic of the alleged gunman.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/us...ting.html?_r=1
  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I just posted about this in another thread.

    CO - official statement is lone gunman when first witnesses, including a cop, said more than one involved.
    WI - Eyewitness says that there were 4 men dressed in black -- official word? Lone gunman.

    People are getting savvy that something is going on that is more than meets the eye when the eyewitnesses keep saying more than one - and then the authorities say only one. WTF? If gov doesn't like people thinking these things are false flags, then they need to stop telling us "sole gunman" after the people actually THERE tell us otherwise.

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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    The post-traumatic stress med's they are feeding these army vets (victims) is scary in and of itself.

    Can't wait for the next generation of mind altering/controlling drugs to hit the market.<that was sarcasm>
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I wonder what the purpose of identifying him as an Army veteran is...to make the army look bad or make veterans look bad? The guy hasn't been in the army for 14 years.

    He was a member of a white supremacist, neo-nazi hate group - IMO, that likely has far more to do with the crime than being a veteran.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I wonder what the purpose of identifying him as an Army veteran is...to make the army look bad or make veterans look bad? The guy hasn't been in the army for 14 years.
      It is not at all uncommon for those of a certain philosophical persuasion to demonize soldiers, veterans and the military as being evil, and the army an entity that needs to be shut down or at least significantly reduced.

      -Chris
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

        It is not at all uncommon for those of a certain philosophical persuasion to demonize soldiers, veterans and the military as being evil, and the army an entity that needs to be shut down or at least significantly reduced.

        -Chris

        Was he a military veteran or not?


        If so, then that will be part of the story - period.

        And....

        ...if you're saying people on the left are more apt to demonize the military - that's a bunch of BS.

        We simply don't believe in giving military leaders and contractors everything and anything the want whenever they want it.

        Why not?

        Nowadays...

        IMHO We'd rather more of that money be invested in programs that help protect, enhance and grow the middle class in our country instead of overpaying military contractors for cost overruns etc. and on unnecessary, outdated weapon systems.


        The 34th reportedly said this... ( back in the day )

        "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft...

        ...from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."


        - Dwight D. Eisenhower
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          The 34th reportedly said this... ( back in the day )

          "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft...

          ...from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."


          - Dwight D. Eisenhower
          Go ahead! Quote ANY person you want, it doesn't impress. SURE EVERYTHING noodlessly done, *******EVERYTHING NEEDLESSLY DONE******** in the goverment IS a theft, no matter how you slice it. But interestingly most of that has NOTHING to do with the military. And it is a theft from EVERY tax payer. If someone is getting paid by the government they should just be happy that someone ELSE was there to get the money.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            EVERYTHING noodlessly done,

            Steve
            We finally agree on something! Yay us!

            I agree that many things like mac and cheese and spaghetti without noodles, or Yankee Doodle going noddleless is a crime against humanity!

            Up with noodles!

            Noodle Power!

            Kudos to noodles!
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Go ahead! Quote ANY person you want, it doesn't impress. SURE EVERYTHING noodlessly done, *******EVERYTHING NEEDLESSLY DONE******** in the goverment IS a theft, no matter how you slice it. But interestingly most of that has NOTHING to do with the military. And it is a theft from EVERY tax payer. If someone is getting paid by the government they should just be happy that someone ELSE was there to get the money.

            Steve
            Sir, you are entitled.


            TL
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            "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author cyber freak
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author waterotter
      Originally Posted by cyber freak View Post

      Can't wait for the next generation of mind altering/controlling drugs
      If you can't think for yourself and have to copy and paste someone else's response, you won't last long here. :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

        If you can't think for yourself and have to copy and paste someone else's response, you won't last long here. :rolleyes:
        If the poster is copying and pasting other responses as their own, you need to report it Jody. Some sort of linking thing they are doing.
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        • Profile picture of the author waterotter
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          If the poster is copying and pasting other responses as their own, you need to report it Jody. Some sort of linking thing they are doing.
          After a few hours on the forum, poster has been given a well deserved vacation.
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  • A U.S. Army spokeswoman told Yahoo News that Page served from April 1992 until October 1998 as a member of the psychological operations unit. He was never deployed, but was awarded numerous medals, including two for good conduct and one for humanitarian service. Page, a Colorado native, received basic training in Fort Sill, Okla., moved to Fort Bliss in Texas and finished at Fort Bragg in North Carolina.

    Just curious...not trying to scream 'conspiracy' here...

    but those 3 points right there seem curiously awfully circumstantial to the other recent shootings...

    Psychological operations unit...

    Colorado native...

    moved to Fort Bliss in Texas and finished at Fort Bragg...

    Not saying there is anything there...it's just curious...


    *Kind of ridiculous of all available groups to attack, he would pick one who has a main tenet of peaceful unless provoked to a last resort.
    "Sikhs are expected to embody the qualities of a "Sant-Sipāhī"—a saint-soldier. One must have control over one's internal vices and be able to be constantly immersed in virtues clarified in the Guru Granth Sahib. A Sikh must also have the courage to defend the rights of all who are wrongfully oppressed or persecuted irrespective of religion, colour, caste or creed., (for this reason they carry a Kirpan (curved knife) at all times)

    I was also of the understanding that it is part of the Sikh faith to not cut your hair - ever - yet, the head of this temple had a goatee, and several of the members I have seen have what appear to be trimmed beards...is this a 'reformed' group? Can anyone more familiar elaborate?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      The report by those who were handling the incident said initially they did not know how many people were involved and because of that had not yet entered the property.

      That doesn't meant there were more people involved - only that information was scarce immediately after the shooting.

      Doesn't mean there WERE more people involved - just means they didn't know right away...including the two cops (one of them shot) that were first responders.

      I think the "instant news" we have today is often responsible for rumors as they fight to report everything first and immediately...and often report hearsay and rumor as "what we know" and don't inform viewers later that what they knew was wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Psy Ops does sound like it's getting redundant, doesn't it.

    I'm still wondering who the other 3 shooters were and why the officials keep claiming there was only one shooter when people there say more.

    I don't think it's "conspiracy" to ask vital questions about why so many of these shooters have been in psy ops. I think it's about time we looked at that seriously. Just like we need to start taking a closer look at the involvement of psychotropic drugs.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Psy Ops does sound like it's getting redundant, doesn't it.

      I'm still wondering who the other 3 shooters were and why the officials keep claiming there was only one shooter when people there say more.

      I don't think it's "conspiracy" to ask vital questions about why so many of these shooters have been in psy ops. I think it's about time we looked at that seriously. Just like we need to start taking a closer look at the involvement of psychotropic drugs.
      I wonder why people who are "aware" are considered "conspiracy" thinkers.... Hey! "Just because I'm paranoid doesnt mean people arent really chasing me...." Yaknowhutumsayin?
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      • Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

        I wonder why people who are "aware" are considered "conspiracy" thinkers.... Hey! "Just because I'm paranoid doesnt mean people arent really chasing me...." Yaknowhutumsayin?
        When I look on some conspiracies, who some may claim as paranoia...I always try to remember the story of Ambassador and Secretary of Defense James Forrestal - who was put into the National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, for 'paranoid delusions' when he made claims such as he was being constantly followed by Israeli spies after the war...

        He finally believed he was crazy, and committed suicide....

        Years later, they discovered he WAS apparently being followed by Mossad... - go figure...:rolleyes:

        Or remember Galileo?...he had this little 'theory' and was branded a heretic...:rolleyes:
        (heliocentrism...now there's a conspiracy for ya...)
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I'm surprised this story wasn't posted here yesterday. Maybe you folks aren't getting the latest news as fast as we are in WI? For anyone interested, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal is the state's biggest newspaper and has a lot of coverage about it. You'll find it here: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel - Breaking news, sports, business, watchdog journalism in Wisconsin
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      I saw it late last night but didn't post anything because I was sure someone would had already.


      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I'm surprised this story wasn't posted here yesterday. Maybe you folks aren't getting the latest news as fast as we are in WI? For anyone interested, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal is the state's biggest newspaper and has a lot of coverage about it. You'll find it here: Milwaukee Journal Sentinel - Breaking news, sports, business, watchdog journalism in Wisconsin
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    KAY,

    Some of the "rumors" are MANUFACTURED! Sometimes they take MONTHS to do that. You KNOW it is intentional because they start reporting that that was ALWAYS what they thought and even HISTORY changes. The timing on these things is just TOO coincidental.. As a famous person, now a mayor of a major city, once said, "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste ..". And the government has manufactured too many things, etc... I am getting tired of this, and starting to question EVERYTHING! Is the alleged shooter REALLY a "white supremacist"? If so, why didn't he pick a safer, and more general route? EVEN if he hated just MOSLEMS(or however you spell it), why NOW? why "ALONE"?

    As I said earlier, I KNEW there would likely be an attack on US soil in september 2001, for several weeks. HOW? Newspapers kept reporting all this senseless strife in israel. If I were them, and felt such futility, I would attack their biggest supporter, the US. It would really be the only chance at a lasting defeat. Then again, WHY did I keep seeing all that stuff? I mean I do NOT generally look at such news. And WHY did I know they would likely blame UBL? My SECOND thought after seeing the crash in the towers was "I wonder if they will blame UBL for THIS too". I mean I don't know the names of terrorists, etc... UBL was the only one I knew from all the MONTHS, or was it YEARS, proceeding this, where it was on the news.

    I shouldn't say this, but in theory it is virtually impossible for a building like that to fall like that. I mean like a pancake with practically no collateral damage. Professionals use special explosives to cut supports in a sequence such that each floor falls one at a time, and lands in the straight down fashion. So I am even wondering about THAT.

    Destruction to a building generally happens in an uneven fashion. In theory, the plane would take out supports, and the heat would be hottest there, so it would most likely fall towards that side, and pull the rest of the building with it. It could have destroyed buildings for blocks. The same thing happens to trees when THEY are cut down.

    ANYWAY, the rules in A21, whether intentionally or coincidentally ARE being carried out. The phrases, terminology, and other things indicate it isn't coincidental. It calls for disarming citizens, and states that gun related disasters should be planned that can be used for a reason to do so. The proper time for the next attempt was planned to be about LAST WEEK!!!!!!!!!! NOW, it has been delayed a bit. For how long? Well, it is a fair bet that they will TRY to do it before october, and they MAY! But they will keep trying. HEY, it ALSO calls for an 86% reduction in population, so a few thousand dead people doesn't matter. The needs of the community outweighs the needs of the one(or is it few). HEY, I wondered why they used community. So many OTHERS use "many". But HERE, they are saying that the needs of the one billion outweigh the needs of the 6 billion, so "many" doesn't work. Technically community doesn't either, but they have changed the meaning of THAT also.

    Look at agenda 21, and read farther than the nice title and purpose. It gets scary.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    3M,

    Ever since I learned about this guy, comments like your have reminded me of him.

    Ignaz Semmelweis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    He discovered, proved, and built a vague theory around how many people died.

    JENNER had LESS evidence in 1796, and INFECTED a boy with cow pox INTENTIONALLY because he thought it would prevent smallpox. IT DID! THAT is why we call VAXinations, vaxinations. Luckily, they didn't kill HIM. They SAY he saved more than any other person. I beg to differ. I bet semmelweis did. And semmelweis' theories were VERY simple. EASY to implement! PAINLESS! NO RISK! Jenners theory created an infection, risked side effects, etc... And Jenners product could desa fern made safer by looking at semmelweis' findings. EVENTUALLY, IT WAS!

    Semmelweis was ridiculed, disgraced, and locked up as insane. A imard beat him until he died of the SAME kind of disease he had the cure for! The year he died, HIS research was used to make surgery and the environment at large safer!

    Talk about conspiracy! I might have like 1000 examples of things JUST like THIS! How about the coumadin I took? They lobbied to be placed in a special class, and misinform doctors, so generics couldn't take over. What about area 51? Blackhawk? Stealth? I EVEN heard of a plan that sounded logical. It was TOP SECRET! Some in my german class LAUGHED when an old woman revealed it. The plan? The attack of Iraq! Her son somehow managed to find out and tell her.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    maybe they just need more compassion and fewer medals
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      How many times something has to happen for it NOT to be a coincidence?

      And this alleged coincidence all happen to "conveniently" point to gun's?

      Just that simple and easy?

      So it is solely and ONLY gun's, no other factors important enough to consider, that's what they want the public to believe?

      This time span of occurrence's so close together is not suspicious?

      Can you say "False Flag" operations?

      O.k..., all together now, s-l-o-w-l-y, can you say...,

      O-p-e-r-a-t-i-o-n__________N-o-r-t-h-w-o-o-d-s?


      Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


      Guess those Nazi scientist they "inherited" from Hitler had some creative ideas, hmm?

      Since we swallowed most "fixed up" incidents in history as factual anyhow, and swallowed 9-11 whole without chewing, along with Oklahoma and countless other similar "news", this is going to work like marked cards in a poker game.

      Other tale's of the sort, like The President of The United States of America is America's #1 boss.

      Give me Aesop's fables anytime over this cerebral decomposing filler any day of the week.

      Now they are considering the movie Minority Report as a template for pre-crime protocol system they want to assemble.., goes well with The Patriot Act, sausage, bacon, eggs, toast and coffee to start you and your future to a Draconian start.

      Was just at the newsstand, and they had a magazine with pictures of most wanted, must have been 15 pages or more; did'nt you always wanted to live a REAL, LIVE Sci-Fi movie in Real Life?

      Lay odds of 7-5 in 10 years, they will have Americas Most Wanted like a Lottery contest, hey, win prizes, help schools and secure our country from these "Domestic Terrorist", that and a tall glass of orange juice to start your day off right folks.

      America's Most Wanted was already a t.v. show, so how ridiculous is Running Man, now?

      The Patriot Act will make even the most "family value" citizen, what ever the hell that means, turn into an instant criminal for simply an error. Dial that phone and do your duty, the next phone call is going to be on "YOU" , mr. or ms. good citizen of Gotham City.

      Hollywood can pack it up, and we can save our money, just sit near a city corner and watch the Militarized Police and other newly created units, you know, for our security and protection against the bad people, do their thing, all the entertainment, drama and action you can handle pretty soon.

      What a cartoon civilization is devolving to be.

      Impossible for The Titanic to ever happen again....., ok.

      They are measuring, carefully, how fast and far to push, so we can adjust and see it as normal, so they can heap more on our plate.

      We swallow 9-11 without even washing it off under the faucet before ingesting, so they figure we are ripe to swallow anything.

      They should not call us neither "American Citizens" ,"Domestic Terrorist"
      or "Enemy Combatants" because the masses on either side of the argument don't REALLY know what none of this gibberish means anyway.

      They should call us "Citizen Foie gras", like the duck or goose, we seem to have no gag reflex for absurdity from , really, anyone or anywhere from teachers to the news to any system or history of information.

      Unlike the duck or goose, who has by far more sense of danger than those whose brains supposin to be bigger in weight, we DON'T have or need to be in some neck restraining contraption to be forced to swallow whatever the whim of the day is....,

      ........we not only pursue and swallow it ourselves, we pay for the subscription service to feed us till OUR livers or L-I-V-E 'ers/lives explode.

      Could the High Priced Whores and Lemming Citizens that follow them like The Gospel, today, EVER come up with a document like The Constitution......, really? What original thought do either of them have that was not pre-digested and assembled?

      They think the Propaganda in academic and intellectual dishonesty in media and scholastic endeavors is synonymous with thought.

      Honestly, anyone willing to accept the above as normal or even as a slight "disagreement" in government and system implementation of civilization, do people like that, THAT EASY and gullible really DESERVE FREEDOM and Liberty?

      Operation Northwoods, for God's sake that's congressional record, among other admissions of other historic events you may not know about, what is it GOING TO TAKE, people?

      Don't answer that, I already know.

      Maybe that is why they keep referencing The Chosen Few.

      Because folks willing to accept this ludicrousness as normal or minor flaws would not know truth, justice , equity, fairness, reciprocity and freedom if it bit their nose off with iron teeth.


      The 13th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
        Good lord! Get a grip! This ain't no false flag conspiracy, it's just another crazy guy going beserk. There have been people like this since the beginning of time and it doesn't just happen in the US, Here's a list of rampage killers. It's not a short list man:

        List of rampage killers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        False flag my a$$ LOL. For what? Gun control? Ridiculous. Geesh. Unbelievable! :/

        Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

        How many times something has to happen for it NOT to be a coincidence?

        And this alleged coincidence all happen to "conveniently" point to gun's?

        Just that simple and easy?

        So it is solely and ONLY gun's, no other factors important enough to consider, that's what they want the public to believe?

        This time span of occurrence's so close together is not suspicious?

        Can you say "False Flag" operations?

        O.k..., all together now, s-l-o-w-l-y, can you say...,

        O-p-e-r-a-t-i-o-n__________N-o-r-t-h-w-o-o-d-s?


        Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


        Guess those Nazi scientist they "inherited" from Hitler had some creative ideas, hmm?

        Since we swallowed most "fixed up" incidents in history as factual anyhow, and swallowed 9-11 whole without chewing, along with Oklahoma and countless other similar "news", this is going to work like marked cards in a poker game.

        Other tale's of the sort, like The President of The United States of America is America's #1 boss.

        Give me Aesop's fables anytime over this cerebral decomposing filler any day of the week.

        Now they are considering the movie Minority Report as a template for pre-crime protocol system they want to assemble.., goes well with The Patriot Act, sausage, bacon, eggs, toast and coffee to start you and your future to a Draconian start.

        Was just at the newsstand, and they had a magazine with pictures of most wanted, must have been 15 pages or more; did'nt you always wanted to live a REAL, LIVE Sci-Fi movie in Real Life?

        Lay odds of 7-5 in 10 years, they will have Americas Most Wanted like a Lottery contest, hey, win prizes, help schools and secure our country from these "Domestic Terrorist", that and a tall glass of orange juice to start your day off right folks.

        America's Most Wanted was already a t.v. show, so how ridiculous is Running Man, now?

        The Patriot Act will make even the most "family value" citizen, what ever the hell that means, turn into an instant criminal for simply an error. Dial that phone and do your duty, the next phone call is going to be on "YOU" , mr. or ms. good citizen of Gotham City.

        Hollywood can pack it up, and we can save our money, just sit near a city corner and watch the Militarized Police and other newly created units, you know, for our security and protection against the bad people, do their thing, all the entertainment, drama and action you can handle pretty soon.

        What a cartoon civilization is devolving to be.

        Impossible for The Titanic to ever happen again....., ok.

        They are measuring, carefully, how fast and far to push, so we can adjust and see it as normal, so they can heap more on our plate.

        We swallow 9-11 without even washing it off under the faucet before ingesting, so they figure we are ripe to swallow anything.

        They should not call us neither "American Citizens" ,"Domestic Terrorist"
        or "Enemy Combatants" because the masses on either side of the argument don't REALLY know what none of this gibberish means anyway.

        They should call us "Citizen Foie gras", like the duck or goose, we seem to have no gag reflex for absurdity from , really, anyone or anywhere from teachers to the news to any system or history of information.

        Unlike the duck or goose, who has by far more sense of danger than those whose brains supposin to be bigger in weight, we DON'T have or need to be in some neck restraining contraption to be forced to swallow whatever the whim of the day is....,

        ........we not only pursue and swallow it ourselves, we pay for the subscription service to feed us till OUR livers or L-I-V-E 'ers/lives explode.

        Could the High Priced Whores and Lemming Citizens that follow them like The Gospel, today, EVER come up with a document like The Constitution......, really? What original thought do either of them have that was not pre-digested and assembled?

        They think the Propaganda in academic and intellectual dishonesty in media and scholastic endeavors is synonymous with thought.

        Honestly, anyone willing to accept the above as normal or even as a slight "disagreement" in government and system implementation of civilization, do people like that, THAT EASY and gullible really DESERVE FREEDOM and Liberty?

        Operation Northwoods, for God's sake that's congressional record, among other admissions of other historic events you may not know about, what is it GOING TO TAKE, people?

        Don't answer that, I already know.

        Maybe that is why they keep referencing The Chosen Few.

        Because folks willing to accept this ludicrousness as normal or minor flaws would not know truth, justice , equity, fairness, reciprocity and freedom if it bit their nose off with iron teeth.


        The 13th Warrior
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        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Good lord! Get a grip! This ain't no false flag conspiracy, it's just another crazy guy going beserk. There have been people like this since the beginning of time and it doesn't just happen in the US, Here's a list of rampage killers. It's not a short list man:

          List of rampage killers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          False flag my a$$ LOL. For what? Gun control? Ridiculous. Geesh. Unbelievable! :/


          LOL!!!!


          Brace yourself for him declaring you and anyone else that disagrees with him the perfect type of person that will happily serve the new world order.


          BTW,

          I saw the remake of Total Recall on Saturday.


          I like the original better but if anyone wants serious non-stop action they can check out the remake.


          TL
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          "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Good lord! Get a grip! This ain't no false flag conspiracy, it's just another crazy guy going beserk. There have been people like this since the beginning of time and it doesn't just happen in the US, Here's a list of rampage killers. It's not a short list man:

          List of rampage killers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          False flag my a$$ LOL. For what? Gun control? Ridiculous. Geesh. Unbelievable! :/
          Hear that everyone? If you need to steal from anyone, TIM IS YOUR GUY! If he can't find it, he KNOWS it wasn't stolen because there were OTHER times he couldn't find things.

          TIM,

          NOBODY is claiming that EVERY kook is controlled by the government, etc... They are saying these are SUSPICIOUS! The White Chapel killer killed prostitutes. Who knows what triggered him BUT, once he was triggered, he searched some out. BTW he tried to do it COVERTLY. Even TODAY, HUNDREDS of years later, there is only suspicion. THAT is thought to have been intentionally unsolved as well.

          The unabomber associated universities and airlines with his problems, and wanted to speak to the public, so he placed bombs at key points, or sent bombs, and AGAIN did it covertly. The picture was from a person that happened to see him plant a bomb, as I recall. Even so, he was well covered.

          In the movie terminator, he starts killing people with the same name, because she is a known ancestor of their biggest foe. Such serial murders(done because of some similar characteristic) are also pretty common. It is OFTEN done covertly. SOMETIMES they try to boil it down to a common hatred and/or lie, and get OTHERS to help, which is what Hitler did.

          I DOUBT that astronaut had AS. I happened across a bunch of people with AS that felt the same. AS? In such cramped quarters? With others? etc...? I DOUBT IT! So THERE is a conspiracy! But OK, that isn't unusual. Pick something that can't be disproved by a test that is 100% objective, and say your client snapped because of it. But she said she was triggered by a person leaving her. Not unheard of.

          These two seemed SO close, SO illplanned, etc... Now illplanned is not unusual. It is a hallmark of some pure insane people. They snap, and right THERE may kill. They are probably often unarmed though. And in THESE two cases one person DID plan it for MONTHS!!!!!!!! Another was in a place he apparently went out of his way to get to. HECK, he could have wired a bomb to a door that would be moved after the temple was filled. He would instantly have killed more people and it would be covert. Of course, the batman guy could have done something similar. Who knows?

          The people in the school shootings, where the shooter was a student, probably shot teachers, bullies, and other people they were angry at. So even that could be explained. They probably saw it as revenge. AND, as revenge, they probably WANTED to be known by the victims.

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Here Steve, take some time and read this site. I will give you a test after you are done and post the grades here.

            Thou shalt not commit logical fallacies

            These are the ones to focus on and will be in the test:

            "Strawman: By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable or valid. This kind of dishonesty not only undermines rational discourse, it also harms one's own position because it brings your credibility into question - if you're willing to misrepresent your opponent's argument in the negative, might you also be willing to exaggerate your own in the positive?"

            "False cause: You presumed that a real or perceived relationship between things means that one is the cause of the other.
            One such mistake in thinking is the 'cum hoc ergo propter hoc' (with this, therefore because of this) fallacy in which someone presumes that because things are happening together that one thing is therefore the cause of the other."



            Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

            Hear that everyone? If you need to steal from anyone, TIM IS YOUR GUY! If he can't find it, he KNOWS it wasn't stolen because there were OTHER times he couldn't find things.

            TIM,

            NOBODY is claiming that EVERY kook is controlled by the government, etc... They are saying these are SUSPICIOUS! The White Chapel killer killed prostitutes. Who knows what triggered him BUT, once he was triggered, he searched some out. BTW he tried to do it COVERTLY. Even TODAY, HUNDREDS of years later, there is only suspicion. THAT is thought to have been intentionally unsolved as well.

            The unabomber associated universities and airlines with his problems, and wanted to speak to the public, so he placed bombs at key points, or sent bombs, and AGAIN did it covertly. The picture was from a person that happened to see him plant a bomb, as I recall. Even so, he was well covered.

            In the movie terminator, he starts killing people with the same name, because she is a known ancestor of their biggest foe. Such serial murders(done because of some similar characteristic) are also pretty common. It is OFTEN done covertly. SOMETIMES they try to boil it down to a common hatred and/or lie, and get OTHERS to help, which is what Hitler did.

            I DOUBT that astronaut had AS. I happened across a bunch of people with AS that felt the same. AS? In such cramped quarters? With others? etc...? I DOUBT IT! So THERE is a conspiracy! But OK, that isn't unusual. Pick something that can't be disproved by a test that is 100% objective, and say your client snapped because of it. But she said she was triggered by a person leaving her. Not unheard of.

            These two seemed SO close, SO illplanned, etc... Now illplanned is not unusual. It is a hallmark of some pure insane people. They snap, and right THERE may kill. They are probably often unarmed though. And in THESE two cases one person DID plan it for MONTHS!!!!!!!! Another was in a place he apparently went out of his way to get to. HECK, he could have wired a bomb to a door that would be moved after the temple was filled. He would instantly have killed more people and it would be covert. Of course, the batman guy could have done something similar. Who knows?

            The people in the school shootings, where the shooter was a student, probably shot teachers, bullies, and other people they were angry at. So even that could be explained. They probably saw it as revenge. AND, as revenge, they probably WANTED to be known by the victims.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              "False cause: You presumed that a real or perceived relationship between things means that one is the cause of the other.
              One such mistake in thinking is the 'cum hoc ergo propter hoc' (with this, therefore because of this) fallacy in which someone presumes that because things are happening together that one thing is therefore the cause of the other."
              Not quite the same fallacy. What is being presumed here is that both incidents stem from the SAME cause, not one from the other. The presumption is that because of timing, pending legislative action, and nature of the crime committed, it is a false flag operation. The fallacy is modus ponens. And just because it's a modus ponens argument it does not mean that it is false. THAT is what people are trying to establish.

              I am not liking the "official" versions of these crimes being "lone" shooters when eye witnesses report otherwise. In the video I posted this man was very emphatic that there were 4 shooters. That would make this an organized act of terrorism rather than just a lone nutcase terrorizing a group he hates. There's a big difference between those two things. I want to know why, if people are reporting groups of attackers - we are being told it's lone nut jobs. I am not making any conclusion about why, even though I may speculate.

              I really and truly want to know why. Is it to keep panic to a minimum? To create panick? To promote the case against gun ownership? To make people think there is more or less control over the situation than there is? There's a LOT of reasons that officials would give a widely discrepant report than those who experience it do. It can be presumed the fact that these reports do not even slightly match that there is a reason for it. What the hell is the reason?
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              • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


                Not quite the same fallacy. What is being presumed here is that both incidents stem from the SAME cause, not one from the other. The presumption is that because of timing, pending legislative action, and nature of the crime committed, it is a false flag operation. The fallacy is modus ponens. And just because it's a modus ponens argument it does not mean that it is false. THAT is what people are trying to establish.

                I am not liking the "official" versions of these crimes being "lone" shooters when eye witnesses report otherwise. In the video I posted this man was very emphatic that there were 4 shooters. That would make this an organized act of terrorism rather than just a lone nutcase terrorizing a group he hates. There's a big difference between those two things. I want to know why, if people are reporting groups of attackers - we are being told it's lone nut jobs. I am not making any conclusion about why, even though I may speculate.

                I really and truly want to know why. Is it to keep panic to a minimum? To create panick? To promote the case against gun ownership? To make people think there is more or less control over the situation than there is? There's a LOT of reasons that officials would give a widely discrepant report than those who experience it do. It can be presumed the fact that these reports do not even slightly match that there is a reason for it. What the hell is the reason?




                Now that's what I am talking about, objectivity.

                We don't necessarily have to agree, but the RIGHT questions need to be asked about a lot of things, of most "news" stories.

                Here's a laymen without even a micro-fraction of the means so-called "journalist"(laughable) have yet , these questions will NEVER come up.

                They (corporate) do not pay "media" people for investigative, objective, truth searching questions and answers.

                Ya think General Electric War Manufacturers who owns news bureaus want or care about objectivity? C'mon.

                The only journalist or investigators left are self-employed entrepreneurs who support their own way and travel to get to a story, one-man/one-woman type operations.

                Maybe "once" one of these questions or witness may slip out in a story, but you will never see it again.

                You have to have 'real' thoughts and thinking process to ask these type questions, something AVOIDED in scholastic and academic endeavors.

                "Self-Generated" thinking is really cancerous to those with mass agendas; they want to equate propaganda, being trained , of what to think and how to think, NOT educated, as exactly synonymous with "thinking" or independent , critical thought and being educated.

                Funny how they tell you to get an "education"..., but do you know the difference between being "educated" and being "trained"?

                Education frees, in ALL aspects, true education.

                That is why a scientist or a person with three or four degrees is getting under six figures, hell, some scientist don't even make what a bus driver makes...., and the person they are working for is far less educated, but is their boss and is usually financially independent, if not outright rich, and the "educated" guy is under his thumb.

                A scientist , a supposed educated person , a person with supposedly some measure of a key to open the doors of freedom from within and without, who suppose to have some mastery of cause and effect, supposed to be "the light" in darkness, scrapping for grants, begging for endowments and scraps or more extensions of such.

                Crumbs.

                Looking a "job" or master to provide the means of sustenance for his life, instead of BEING a provider of sustenance, showing the PATH to sustenance.

                This is the mastery "education" gives one?

                Shows you freedom comes from within, not within the walls of some Obedience school called academic/intellectual infrastructures.

                A pet's existence only knows the scope what is ALLOWED by his master , usually not taught by anyone free or independent of his kind, who would be self-guided and direction from only nature itself.

                Some of you have pets that have skills, that you sent to school.

                Who do they serve? Themselves? Can they survive on their own? Do they have
                a self-directed purpose? Are their skills for themselves?

                Does "survival on their own" mean being able to pick up scraps from a trash can of something discarded from society , those that would be their "masters" or can they hunt, on their own?

                So their only means of survival, without a master, is sucking down someone else's trash, no matter how well "educated" they are?

                Are they "educated" or "trained"??

                Or are YOU, like your pet, BORN or Bred , intellectually/spiritually speaking?

                DON'T be a pet.


                The 13th Warrior
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Not true. There are many excellent freelance journalists but there are also many excellent journalists who work for the so called main stream media. Why do you generalize so much?

                  Here's a list of journalists who died this year. You will notice many are not freelance:

                  Journalists in Peril

                  Even if they are freelance, the fact is that they have a story to tell and that story gets out now more than ever because of the internet. Things are not quite as black and white as you make them out to be.

                  Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post


                  The only journalist or investigators left are self-employed entrepreneurs who support their own way and travel to get to a story, one-man/one-woman type operations.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  It's obvious you are anti education and I really doubt it is from experience. Oh, unless it is from what you call "real education", which must mean something different from going to universities because they are all owned by the "elite" or whatever. :/

                  Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

                  You have to have 'real' thoughts and thinking process to ask these type questions, something AVOIDED in scholastic and academic endeavors.

                  "Self-Generated" thinking is really cancerous to those with mass agendas; they want to equate propaganda, being trained , of what to think and how to think, NOT educated, as exactly synonymous with "thinking" or independent , critical thought and being educated.

                  Funny how they tell you to get an "education"..., but do you know the difference between being "educated" and being "trained"?

                  Education frees, in ALL aspects, true education.

                  That is why a scientist or a person with three or four degrees is getting under six figures, hell, some scientist don't even make what a bus driver makes...., and the person they are working for is far less educated, but is their boss and is usually financially independent, if not outright rich, and the "educated" guy is under his thumb.

                  A scientist , a supposed educated person , a person with supposedly some measure of a key to open the doors of freedom from within and without, who suppose to have some mastery of cause and effect, supposed to be "the light" in darkness, scrapping for grants, begging for endowments and scraps or more extensions of such.

                  Crumbs.

                  Looking a "job" or master to provide the means of sustenance for his life, instead of BEING a provider of sustenance, showing the PATH to sustenance.

                  This is the mastery "education" gives one?

                  Shows you freedom comes from within, not within the walls of some Obedience school called academic/intellectual infrastructures.
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                I posted that fallacy in regards to Steve's post, and his past posts, which gave examples that went beyond the two latest shootings.
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                Not quite the same fallacy. What is being presumed here is that both incidents stem from the SAME cause, not one from the other.
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                  I posted that fallacy in regards to Steve's post, and his past posts, which gave examples that went beyond the two latest shootings.
                  Well, your statements about it only being import/export don't make sense for SO many reasons. BESIDES, when was the last time a person was shipped a gun from another country personally, through legal channels, or from a highjacked shipment that would have been legal, and used it against another nation? I can't recall a time. Can YOU? In the US, most problems are caused by DOMESTIC purchases or THEFT. Now, I don't want to wade through a lot that has been sanitized, etc..., but the following should be good enough:

                  Non-Governmental Organizations Question Member States' Commitment as Preparatory Committee Continues Debate on Small Arms, Light Weapons

                  In any event, the US has been pushing and pushing and pushing. With the expectation they have tried to set in the US, we would be lucky if they left us with a gun that is little more than a 21st century MUSKET! They have said as much. HECK, I have a 16+1 because they made it illegal. There would have been a BIG uproar if they made it illegal to OWN one, so it is simply illegal to BUY, SELL, MAKE parts or such guns. Last I heard, 10 was now MAX! And they think THAT is too many, but there isn't much difference between a 10 and a 16+1. In fact, it isn't a difference with the gun at all, but the magazine. When will they get rid of the magazine ENTIRELY? When will they get rid of the gun entirely. It is ludicrous that you even doubt they are trying. As for the PROOF you pointed me to? Tense and modifiers are THROUGHOUT! That screams INTENTIONAL wiggleroom to me. Call it a loophole if you want, but the result is the same.

                  Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author LarryC
          << Good lord! Get a grip! This ain't no false flag conspiracy, it's just another crazy guy going beserk. There have been people like this since the beginning of time and it doesn't just happen in the US, Here's a list of rampage killers. It's not a short list man:

          List of rampage killers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          False flag my a$$ LOL. For what? Gun control? Ridiculous. Geesh. Unbelievable! :/ >>

          I'm always amazed at people who are so certain of things about which they have no direct knowledge. I always suspect a false flag, but I would never be so bold as to say I know that's what it was. But some people have such absolute faith in what the media tells them that there's no question in their minds at all. I almost envy their lack of doubt. On another note, providing a list of rampage killings doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
            Sounds like more of a knock on 13th than me. He is the one so certain it is a false flag right? I'm just questioning his certainty. I don't buy it because the logic doesn't make any sense at all. False flag for what? Like I asked before: gun control? No one is seriously talking about taking guns away from people except for the paranoid extremists. That's why this false flag conspiracy theory falls flat on it's face and is just ridiculous. It isn't because of what the media tells me to think. It's just common sense. :/

            Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

            I'm always amazed at people who are so certain of things about which they have no direct knowledge. I always suspect a false flag, but I would never be so bold as to say I know that's what it was.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

              Sounds like more of a knock on 13th than me. He is the one so certain it is a false flag right? I'm just questioning his certainty. I don't buy it because the logic doesn't make any sense at all. False flag for what? Like I asked before: gun control? No one is seriously talking about taking guns away from people except for the paranoid extremists. That's why this false flag conspiracy theory falls flat on it's face and is just ridiculous. It isn't because of what the media tells me to think. It's just common sense. :/
              Did he EVER say it was a false flag? I believe he said merely that it could be. YOU are the one that said it couldn't.

              And YEAH, those talking about taking guns away are paranoid extremists. That is a GIVEN! Heysal, I, and all others talking about this said the SAME! SO WHAT?!?!?!? NOBODY cares if they are extremists or not. It doesn't matter AT ALL!!!!! What matters is that the UN, and several governments want to comply. And YEAH, they ARE talking about it.

              As for your claims against me? PCTKB! That site, by the way, called you, ironically enough, INDEED the OP, a "the texas sharpshooter". That isn't a compliment. There are, of course, a lot more things that fit. But hey, the TTS fits in several I recall.

              Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by The 13th Warrior View Post

        How many times something has to happen for it NOT to be a coincidence?

        And this alleged coincidence all happen to "conveniently" point to gun's?

        Just that simple and easy?

        So it is solely and ONLY gun's, no other factors important enough to consider, that's what they want the public to believe?

        This time span of occurrence's so close together is not suspicious?

        Can you say "False Flag" operations?

        O.k..., all together now, s-l-o-w-l-y, can you say...,

        O-p-e-r-a-t-i-o-n__________N-o-r-t-h-w-o-o-d-s?


        Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


        Guess those Nazi scientist they "inherited" from Hitler had some creative ideas, hmm?

        Since we swallowed most "fixed up" incidents in history as factual anyhow, and swallowed 9-11 whole without chewing, along with Oklahoma and countless other similar "news", this is going to work like marked cards in a poker game.

        Other tale's of the sort, like The President of The United States of America is America's #1 boss.

        Give me Aesop's fables anytime over this cerebral decomposing filler any day of the week.

        Now they are considering the movie Minority Report as a template for pre-crime protocol system they want to assemble.., goes well with The Patriot Act, sausage, bacon, eggs, toast and coffee to start you and your future to a Draconian start.

        Was just at the newsstand, and they had a magazine with pictures of most wanted, must have been 15 pages or more; did'nt you always wanted to live a REAL, LIVE Sci-Fi movie in Real Life?

        Lay odds of 7-5 in 10 years, they will have Americas Most Wanted like a Lottery contest, hey, win prizes, help schools and secure our country from these "Domestic Terrorist", that and a tall glass of orange juice to start your day off right folks.

        America's Most Wanted was already a t.v. show, so how ridiculous is Running Man, now?

        The Patriot Act will make even the most "family value" citizen, what ever the hell that means, turn into an instant criminal for simply an error. Dial that phone and do your duty, the next phone call is going to be on "YOU" , mr. or ms. good citizen of Gotham City.

        Hollywood can pack it up, and we can save our money, just sit near a city corner and watch the Militarized Police and other newly created units, you know, for our security and protection against the bad people, do their thing, all the entertainment, drama and action you can handle pretty soon.

        What a cartoon civilization is devolving to be.

        Impossible for The Titanic to ever happen again....., ok.

        They are measuring, carefully, how fast and far to push, so we can adjust and see it as normal, so they can heap more on our plate.

        We swallow 9-11 without even washing it off under the faucet before ingesting, so they figure we are ripe to swallow anything.

        They should not call us neither "American Citizens" ,"Domestic Terrorist"
        or "Enemy Combatants" because the masses on either side of the argument don't REALLY know what none of this gibberish means anyway.

        They should call us "Citizen Foie gras", like the duck or goose, we seem to have no gag reflex for absurdity from , really, anyone or anywhere from teachers to the news to any system or history of information.

        Unlike the duck or goose, who has by far more sense of danger than those whose brains supposin to be bigger in weight, we DON'T have or need to be in some neck restraining contraption to be forced to swallow whatever the whim of the day is....,

        ........we not only pursue and swallow it ourselves, we pay for the subscription service to feed us till OUR livers or L-I-V-E 'ers/lives explode.

        Could the High Priced Whores and Lemming Citizens that follow them like The Gospel, today, EVER come up with a document like The Constitution......, really? What original thought do either of them have that was not pre-digested and assembled?

        They think the Propaganda in academic and intellectual dishonesty in media and scholastic endeavors is synonymous with thought.

        Honestly, anyone willing to accept the above as normal or even as a slight "disagreement" in government and system implementation of civilization, do people like that, THAT EASY and gullible really DESERVE FREEDOM and Liberty?

        Operation Northwoods, for God's sake that's congressional record, among other admissions of other historic events you may not know about, what is it GOING TO TAKE, people?

        Don't answer that, I already know.

        Maybe that is why they keep referencing The Chosen Few.

        Because folks willing to accept this ludicrousness as normal or minor flaws would not know truth, justice , equity, fairness, reciprocity and freedom if it bit their nose off with iron teeth.


        The 13th Warrior
        Whaoh. I bet you feel better after that rant. Even I do and all I did was read it. LOL.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    New phenomenon in the U.S.?

    No, it's already been going on for some time.

    Just happened that these ones were relatively close together.

    There were several mass school shootings in the 90s. Columbine, etc. I think one of them was pulled off by a kid 12 years old.

    And then there was the guy who mechanically shot and killed several people (16?) on a New York subway for no apparent reason. Again, I think this was early 90s.

    Then the V. Tech shootings a few years ago.

    Nope, not a new phenomenon at all. Has been going on for some time and not just in the U.S. Happened in Scotland years ago (in tennis Olympic Champion Andy Murray's school!) and mroe recently we have the Norway shootings.

    These are all just off the top of my head. It's happened quite a few times, if you really think about it. Incredibly tragic, numbing and mind boggling each time it happens, but it's nothing new. And I suspect it will happen again, in the U.S. and elsewhere, sadly...
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    WOW, I missed that one. ODD.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    The problem with seasoned's "needless" argument is agreeing on what is needed.

    Is the Curiosity landing needed? Probably not now, but what about in the future? Steven Hawkins has said in order for the human species to survive, we will need to colonize other moons/planets.

    Is educating a poor kid needed? Maybe not, but on the other hand that poor kid could grow up to be someone like George Washington Carver and have a profound financial impact on a great many people.

    Do we "need" National parks or public libraries or Olympic teams? Or do they just give us a better standard of living and more enjoyment in our lives?
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      The problem with seasoned's "needless" argument is agreeing on what is needed.

      Is the Curiosity landing needed? Probably not now, but what about in the future? Steven Hawkins has said in order for the human species to survive, we will need to colonize other moons/planets.

      Is educating a poor kid needed? Maybe not, but on the other hand that poor kid could grow up to be someone like George Washington Carver and have a profound financial impact on a great many people.

      Do we "need" National parks or public libraries or Olympic teams? Or do they just give us a better standard of living and more enjoyment in our lives?
      It seems like people overlook or ignore that people like Carver, and countless others, didn't accomplish what they did because of their education - what they did was a product of their character.

      They achieved great things because of their willingness to overcome adversity, whatever it might have been.

      THAT is what needs to be taught to young people, if they're willing to learn.

      Instead, we have at least one generation of entitlement-oriented kids, who've been taught that the way to greatness is to leech off the efforts of others -- not to develop the character traits that are needed in order to be truly exceptional.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

        It seems like people overlook or ignore that people like Carver, and countless others, didn't accomplish what they did because of their education - what they did was a product of their character.

        They achieved great things because of their willingness to overcome adversity, whatever it might have been.

        THAT is what needs to be taught to young people, if they're willing to learn.

        Instead, we have at least one generation of entitlement-oriented kids, who've been taught that the way to greatness is to leech off the efforts of others -- not to develop the character traits that are needed in order to be truly exceptional.


        I think that's what people said about the previous generation.

        The generation you speak of is also facing the worst times in this country since The Great Depression.

        I'm not sure what age group you're talking about but the whole country is facing the same.

        The economic environment is not as target rich as say the in the 1950's through the 1980's.



        Character hummm...




        How about heredity?




        Does environment or opportunity matter?




        How about education?



        Is character the #1 trait that leads to a successful productive member of society or is it simply a component of success along with environment, opportunity and education?


        I just can't believe in heredity. Not gana do it.


        Somebody help me please.


        All The Best!


        TL
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post


      Good lord! Get a grip! This ain't no false flag conspiracy, it's just another crazy guy going beserk. There have been people like this since the beginning of time and it doesn't just happen in the US, Here's a list of rampage killers. It's not a short list man:

      List of rampage killers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      False flag my a$$ LOL. For what? Gun control? Ridiculous. Geesh. Unbelievable! :/

      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post


      LOL!!!!


      Brace yourself for him declaring you and anyone else that disagrees with him the perfect type of person that will happily serve the new world order.





      The Titanic was deemed and believed to be indestructible, unsinkable, so the filthy rich were partying, even the Captain was drunk and would NOT hear or consider repeat warnings of impending danger.

      LOL? Hey, yeah, you are right.

      I would do so also, if one measured things by their perspective, in fact, it would be comical.

      Why? Because dudes can get up in the morning, put on their robe and fuzzy bunny slippers, walk their dog while listening to their mp3, go to Denny's or local cafe for their morning coffee while reading their paper or hooking up to wi-fi, wave to their neighbor watering the grass, and say hi to the regular named Joe while they sip their coffee, pet their dog, all in their fuzzy slippers.

      Who needs an after life or aspire to deeper truths when you live in milk and honey that will never end?

      Think they did'nt do that in '29, say " hi " to Joe on their way to breakfast?

      They'll fix the Euro and Europe, the unrest cropping up and collapse will eventually die down, somebody is going to fix it, "ooo, oh look, a sale on fishing poles".

      Some how some way, the government and world will right itself, despite the sliding dollar, the unreported trillions in debt beyond the 16 trillion, outsourced jobs , cities and states declaring or on the brink of declaring bankruptcy and other things happening that is not even being reported in the "news".

      Government has to perpetuate a fraud system to cover up the damage of legal fraudster's, their buds, just to slow the system crash, but hey, Mac just gave them a complimentary bagel with their coffee, boy, ha, that good ol Mac.

      Because these guys, like most , believe, hey, it's just more laws, so what?

      Yep, we got thousands of laws on the books, with more being created and some are not used or enforced, but NONE, since The Patriot Act and The National Defense Authorization Act and similar NEVER shot The Constitution in the head at point blank range rendering it obsolete.

      IT is now the law of the land, makes all previous laws OBSOLETE, just a matter of time when they will flex its muscle fully.

      And TL, jesus christ, dudes richter scale for everything is football, when there is no football, only then, maybe, will he believe in possible Armageddon..., it will take something worse than the '29 crash.

      A happy go lucky citizen in the village of The Prisoner.

      Operation Northwoods was not written on toilet paper or a bathroom wall in some college dorm.

      With sports still functioning, who needs to invest in life rafts and life jackets?

      "When" the ship sinks, with so few boats, we'll see what the LOL's will do to get on the few boats while something as big as a 4 stories tall was sinking into a dark, sub-freezing arctic grave.

      I would'nt even bet YOUR money on chivalry.

      Ha, even on the Titanic, they did not even have enough boats.

      Sheer supremist arrogance, opulent absolutist.

      Self proclaimed deity status and invulnerability by material comfort.

      Now THAT attitude and spirit is truly Laughable.



      The 13th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        By the way, if something is so random and happens everyday, why are we talking about it?

        Are we gossip hounds? Why is it a story?

        It's summer, and it is hot somewhere, is that news, do we need a thread for something so RANDOM and normal? Actions deny your belief.

        Cause and Effect is the root of science, and to tout it off as "random" and stuff happens every day is simply to be a die hard believer in the accepted "the earth is flat" camp.

        If the Effect is real, so is the Cause.

        That is the premise of Education, or suppose to be, might as drop that degree and high school diploma in the shredder, hell, life is just random.

        Maybe you was "randomly" educated.


        The 13th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well, OK, I never spoke against parks or education or libraries. Education is a pet peeve of mine. They are dumbing it all down. NOW, as far as olympics?

    I will never forget the time I wanted to cross the street and noticed traffic lights pulled out. WHY? Well, their STORY was apparently that they had the olympics maybe a hundred miles away and the visitors were too stupid to learn the words "DON'T" and "WALK", and/or that red meant stop. I heard that EACH ONE of those units cost $5000! That means that every street block cost about $20,000! So every street mile costs maybe an average of $50,000-$100,000(assuming half the streets cross the other half). Now was THAT needed?

    A block has 4 sides, so that is $40,000 PER BLOCK or more! Some of those blocks WERE poor. How much would $40,000 have helped them?

    As for Stephen Hawking's comment, there is a LOT we could do here to live as today and be self sustaining. If the human race fails, moving elsewhere only has a small potential to prolong it. HAVING to do that is silly. And how would we really communicate with one another? By voicemail? Apparently, mars is currently 15 light minutes away. IMAGINE Parents away from a planet that is 1 light year away!

    2020(Sent from distant planet) Please send this message to mr and mrs jones at.... Their daughter is in the hospital and they don't know if she will make it.

    2022(Sent from earth and received on distant planet) We just got your message. Where is she currently?

    2023(sent from distant planet and received on earth) She survived the surgery and died 12/1/2022.

    2024(received on distant planet) Where is the funeral being held?

    2025(received on earth) The funeral is at...

    2026(sent from earth received on planet) We regret to inform, her parents died last week.

    You couldn't even have the internet, as you would need to hold like 3+ YEARS worth of data in the buffer! Response times on a CLEAN network would be 2 years! And that is limited by the current methods in place. Whether electricity or light or radio, that is the fastest. In fact, radio would be slower.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Well, OK, I never spoke against parks or education or libraries. Education is a pet peeve of mine. They are dumbing it all down. NOW, as far as olympics?

      I will never forget the time I wanted to cross the street and noticed traffic lights pulled out. WHY? Well, their STORY was apparently that they had the olympics maybe a hundred miles away and the visitors were too stupid to learn the words "DON'T" and "WALK", and/or that red meant stop. I heard that EACH ONE of those units cost $5000! That means that every street block cost about $20,000! So every street mile costs maybe an average of $50,000-$100,000(assuming half the streets cross the other half). Now was THAT needed?

      A block has 4 sides, so that is $40,000 PER BLOCK or more! Some of those blocks WERE poor. How much would $40,000 have helped them?

      As for Stephen Hawking's comment, there is a LOT we could do here to live as today and be self sustaining. If the human race fails, moving elsewhere only has a small potential to prolong it. HAVING to do that is silly. And how would we really communicate with one another? By voicemail? Apparently, mars is currently 15 light minutes away. IMAGINE Parents away from a planet that is 1 light year away!

      2020(Sent from distant planet) Please send this message to mr and mrs jones at.... Their daughter is in the hospital and they don't know if she will make it.

      2022(Sent from earth and received on distant planet) We just got your message. Where is she currently?

      2023(sent from distant planet and received on earth) She survived the surgery and died 12/1/2022.

      2024(received on distant planet) Where is the funeral being held?

      2025(received on earth) The funeral is at...

      2026(sent from earth received on planet) We regret to inform, her parents died last week.

      You couldn't even have the internet, as you would need to hold like 3+ YEARS worth of data in the buffer! Response times on a CLEAN network would be 2 years! And that is limited by the current methods in place. Whether electricity or light or radio, that is the fastest. In fact, radio would be slower.

      Steve
      seasoned,

      As always, you missed the point. I merely gave some EXAMPLES. I was hoping you could think BEYOND what I posted.

      The point is, having to agree on what is necessary. It's easy to say all unneeded Gov spending is stealing, the hard part is agreeing on what is "needed".

      And while you "never spoke against parks or education or libraries", you never spoke for them, either. You simply claimed that the Gov taking any money that wasn't "needed" was "stealing".

      National parts aren't "needed". However, I don't consider tax money spent to have them as "stealing". And anyone that has a problem with our National Parks needs to take it up with Teddy Roosevelt.

      PS...If it comes down to between you and Stephen Hawking, guess whose side I'm taking?

      BTW, Hawkings point (another point you missed) is that there's a good chance the Earth won't be inhabitable at some point in the future. So your "points" are totally invalid, as there may not be anyone on Earth to receive your messages.

      However, this point wasn't meant to be taken literally, like you did. It was meant to show that because something isn't needed now, doesn't mean it may not be needed in the future.

      Let me know if you are still confused...
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    "False cause: You presumed that a real or perceived relationship between things means that one is the cause of the other.
    One such mistake in thinking is the 'cum hoc ergo propter hoc' (with this, therefore because of this) fallacy in which someone presumes that because things are happening together that one thing is therefore the cause of the other."
    Tim, do you really want to go there? One of the main arguments made for 'gun control' is that the availability of firearms is a root cause of gun violence. Yet there are a number of countries ( Switzerland, for one) whose citizenry is armed to the teeth but whose incidents of 'gun violence' are orders of magnitude less than the US, and therefore also less than that of other countries with very restrictive gun control laws.

    So, at its core, that argument fails purely on logic.

    Somehow, I don't think that will make a difference, though.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Steve, even Switzerland has some gun control laws. For example:

      "To purchase a firearm in a commercial shop, one needs to have a Waffenerwerbsschein (weapon acquisition permit). A permit allows the purchase of three firearms. Everyone over the age of 18 who is not psychiatrically disabled (such as having had a history of endangering his own life or the lives of others) or identified as posing security problems, and who has a clean criminal record (requires a Criminal Records Bureau check) can request such a permit."

      "Basically, the sale of automatic firearms, selective fire weapons and certain accessories such as sound suppressors ("silencers") is forbidden (as is the sale of certain disabled automatic firearms which have been identified as easily restored to fully automatic capability). The purchase of such items is however legal with a special permit issued by cantonal police. The issuance of such a permit requires additional requirements to be met, e.g. the possession of a specific gun locker".

      Seems like some logical gun laws there to me.

      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      Yet there are a number of countries ( Switzerland, for one) whose citizenry is armed to the teeth but whose incidents of 'gun violence' are orders of magnitude less than the US, and therefore also less than that of other countries with very restrictive gun control laws.
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      • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
        No way you can compare US with Switzerland.

        They have high gun ownership because they have no standing army and therefore all young men are trained in a militia and keep their guns at home.

        However, they have no ammunition. That is kept in military bases.

        It is not easy to just go and buy ammo in Switzerland.

        Dan
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

          Steve, even Switzerland has some gun control laws. For example:

          "To purchase a firearm in a commercial shop, one needs to have a Waffenerwerbsschein (weapon acquisition permit). A permit allows the purchase of three firearms. Everyone over the age of 18 who is not psychiatrically disabled (such as having had a history of endangering his own life or the lives of others) or identified as posing security problems, and who has a clean criminal record (requires a Criminal Records Bureau check) can request such a permit."

          "Basically, the sale of automatic firearms, selective fire weapons and certain accessories such as sound suppressors ("silencers") is forbidden (as is the sale of certain disabled automatic firearms which have been identified as easily restored to fully automatic capability). The purchase of such items is however legal with a special permit issued by cantonal police. The issuance of such a permit requires additional requirements to be met, e.g. the possession of a specific gun locker".

          Seems like some logical gun laws there to me.
          A little bit of selective quoting going on there, sir...

          "After turning 18, any individual can buy singleshot or semiautomatic long arms (breech-loading or muzzle-loading) without a permit (so-called "free arms")."

          "To buy a gun from an individual, no permit is needed,..."


          Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

          No way you can compare US with Switzerland.

          They have high gun ownership because they have no standing army and therefore all young men are trained in a militia and keep their guns at home.

          However, they have no ammunition. That is kept in military bases.

          It is not easy to just go and buy ammo in Switzerland.

          Dan
          Think you might want to investigate that a little further:

          "Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book."

          So in reality, Swiss gun laws are no more restrictive than US laws, yet their violent crime rate is a lot less.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

            A little bit of selective quoting going on there, sir...

            "After turning 18, any individual can buy singleshot or semiautomatic long arms (breech-loading or muzzle-loading) without a permit (so-called "free arms")."

            "To buy a gun from an individual, no permit is needed,..."


            Think you might want to investigate that a little further:

            "Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book."

            So in reality, Swiss gun laws are no more restrictive than US laws, yet their violent crime rate is a lot less.
            So why is the US gun violence rate so much higher then? Most attribute it to no drug gangs in Switzerland along with a more socialistic society, where there's far less economic inequality.

            It's a stat with a very good correlation: The countries with the largest financial gap between rich and poor are the most violent, and the countries with the smallest gap between rich and poor are the least violent.

            And it's the size of this gap that determines violence, not the number of guns, or lack of them.
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          • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
            Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

            So in reality, Swiss gun laws are no more restrictive than US laws, yet their violent crime rate is a lot less.
            That is down to them being boring. They could live in those towns in the other thread.

            You have never been I can tell.

            Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    He's FOR education, Tim. What he's talking about is the suppression of the educated and educational institutions that teach people what to think instead of how to think. He's right on that one. Good solid education in critical thinking, sciences, etc. is a thing of the past - we got the last of it. It's not going to get better soon, either.

    14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools | Mother Jones

    The next question is why is it that they want to develop another intellectual dark ages?
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    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      He's FOR education, Tim. What he's talking about is the suppression of the educated and educational institutions that teach people what to think instead of how to think. He's right on that one. Good solid education in critical thinking, sciences, etc. is a thing of the past - we got the last of it. It's not going to get better soon, either.

      14 Wacky "Facts" Kids Will Learn in Louisiana's Voucher Schools | Mother Jones

      The next question is why is it that they want to develop another intellectual dark ages?
      Well, I couldn't believe mother jones would talk about the public education garbage. This isn't about THAT, but about stuff that supposedly all the cheaper PRIVATE schools teach. I doubt VERY much that the private "mostly christian" schools are teaching that nessie exists or 2,3,4,5,6,7,10,11,12 or 13. I left out 1 because SOME could, but I doubt it. I left out 8 because some may put it that way. It IS treated that way. Heck, 9 is true. Red did NOT really mean the russians, and even their "quote" makes that clear. 11 is really hard to tell, since their example shows something they don't like. Are they exagerating? As for 14? That is also possible. The Bible speaks of a time when a lot of information can be known virtually INSTANTLY, and where countries will join together. Of course, it doesn't work out.

      And dragons DO get a small reference in the bible, but I don't recall seeing ANYTHING that said they fly or spit fire. In fact, I can only remember a couple clauses even mentioning them. There IS another race of creatures, I forget their name, that came before the current day humans, and that was one reason given for the flood.

      And you KNOW exactly how they are biased just at what was "picked", and how it is emphasized, etc...

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Controversial church tweets on tragedy...


    Wisconsin Shooting: Westboro Baptist Church Releases Horrific Tweet After Attack On Sikh Temple


    Westboro Baptist Church has drawn media attention for its brand of protest, which frequently links the deaths of soldiers to America's growing acceptance of gays.
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    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Controversial church tweets on tragedy...


      Wisconsin Shooting: Westboro Baptist Church Releases Horrific Tweet After Attack On Sikh Temple


      Westboro Baptist Church has drawn media attention for its brand of protest, which frequently links the deaths of soldiers to America's growing acceptance of gays.
      Maybe you didn't see my post in the chikfila thread about how the person that berated that woman should meet that pastor that goes to the funerals and all. THIS is that guy! So WHAT is your point?

      The pastor here is a nutjob, and will do almost ANYTHING to further his position, or attack people he hates. If he has to go to a funeral post-mortem, or commend a killer, he can and will do it, and HAS. He is probably too chicken to do anything in public ALONE. Christians generally want to distance themselves from the likes of him, and certainly don't support him.

      BTW the first amendment does NOT allow such things on religious grounds. That WAS tried in the courts. It also doesn't generally doesn't in terms of free speech. The US generally uses the "clear and present danger" doctrine. TODAY, that technically applies to moderately popular people despite where they may be.

      Of course, courts may fight to determine if that last part is really as broad as I essentially said, but they have done this before, and generally have broadend it. Considering you tube and cable, you can bet it is only a matter of time. Anyway, if he IS allowed to be a baptist pastor, it should be PULLED! His tax exempt status should be pulled. If he is traced as influencing such things, he should be charged.

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        Maybe you didn't see my post in the chikfila thread about how the person that berated that woman should meet that pastor that goes to the funerals and all. THIS is that guy! So WHAT is your point?

        The pastor here is a nutjob, and will do almost ANYTHING to further his position, or attack people he hates. If he has to go to a funeral post-mortem, or commend a killer, he can and will do it, and HAS. He is probably too chicken to do anything in public ALONE. Christians generally want to distance themselves from the likes of him, and certainly don't support him.

        BTW the first amendment does NOT allow such things on religious grounds. That WAS tried in the courts. It also doesn't generally doesn't in terms of free speech. The US generally uses the "clear and present danger" doctrine. TODAY, that technically applies to moderately popular people despite where they may be.

        Of course, courts may fight to determine if that last part is really as broad as I essentially said, but they have done this before, and generally have broadend it. Considering you tube and cable, you can bet it is only a matter of time. Anyway, if he IS allowed to be a baptist pastor, it should be PULLED! His tax exempt status should be pulled. If he is traced as influencing such things, he should be charged.

        Steve
        After your support for GB and Rush, your opposition to the Ground Zero mosque your support for allowing the debt ceiling to expire, your expressed fear of Sharia law taking over America, etc., etc. etc,...


        ... to be frank, I'm really surprised you don't support this group also.


        TL


        Ps. If I have mis-stated any of your positions please correct me.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Controversial church tweets on tragedy...


      Wisconsin Shooting: Westboro Baptist Church Releases Horrific Tweet After Attack On Sikh Temple


      Westboro Baptist Church has drawn media attention for its brand of protest, which frequently links the deaths of soldiers to America's growing acceptance of gays.
      YIKES. Just yikes.
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      Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    BTW...

    Jared Loughner Shooter In Gabby Giffords Rampage Pleads Guilty:

    Jared Loughner, Arizona Shooting Suspect, Called A 'Different Person' By Judge After Treatment
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