Employee outsources himself.....

laurencewins

11 years ago

That is so funny and yet ironic at the same time.

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LarryC

11 years ago

"The software developer, in his 40s, is thought to have spent his workdays surfing the web, watching cat videos on YouTube and browsing Reddit and eBay."

That's hilarious. Clever too, if he hadn't gotten caught

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HeySal

11 years ago

ANYTHING and everything is okay for a company, Jack. Employees are supposed to be loyal and faithful right up until the company puts their necks on the chopping block - for anything they want to. It's too bad that the guy got caught. Like you alluded - if the company had been at fault they would have had no repercussions whatsoever. It's just TOO much fun being owned by a bank, eh?

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Joe Mobley 11 years ago

Operator Verizon says the scam came to light after the US firm asked it for an audit, suspecting a security breach.

Probably no scam involved though he may have broken company rules.

At some level, I love this.

Joe Mobley
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- jacktackett 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Joe Mobley
  
  Probably no scam involved though he may have broken company rules.
  
  At some level, I love this.
  
  Joe Mobley
  
  Same here Joe - I cheer when the serfs stick it to the man. Sadly now that I'm the man its not so much fun anymore .
  
  I admire the guy's spunk and creativity.
  
  --Jack
  
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lcombs

11 years ago

Funny.
As a truck driver I often thought about how easy it be to pay somebody 1/2 my salary to drive my route while I worked a shorter day at a less stressful job.

On another note; this tactic is taken right off the pages of "The 4 Hour Work Week." by Timothy Ferris.

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seasoned

11 years ago

This has been ILLEGAL for CENTURIES! Employment contracts today SPECIFICALLY FORBID IT!

I have worked for several companies as an effectively outsourced individual. WHY was it legal for ME?

1. I was with an APPROVED company! Many companies either approve you THEMSELVES, like cisco. SOME, like the American Redcross outsource it to ****ONE**** company.
2. I was VETTED!
3. I was, or at least they said they tried to get me, ONBOARDED.
4. I was given the information by one approved.
5. I had any needed background checks.
6. I took any needed tests, etc....
7. I was known by the admins or an approved intermediary.
8. I met the legal requirements. I worked at a couple places, for example, where that employee could have been ARRESTED for being a NATIONAL SECURITY RISK!
9. My telling myself their proprietary/classified info was legal and OK! If I told another, it would be an ILLEGAL breach! I was subject to the terms of the contract and traditional custom!

Frankly, that programmer should be blackballed and NEVER allowed to work again in the job. He is a RISK!

What if it were YOUR company? What if you found they stole ALL of your customers? What if one of those records had YOUR financial info, and they cleaned you out? How would you feel THEN?

It is BAD ENOUGH if THEY do it.

BTW MANY employment contracts SPECIFICALLY forbid giving access or information to another! EVERY contract I have seen has FORBIDDEN giving out proprietary or confidential information. They allude to suits or TERMINATION if such a breach occurs!

Steve

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lcombs

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

This has been ILLEGAL for CENTURIES! Employment contracts today SPECIFICALLY FORBID IT!

I have worked for several companies as an effectively outsourced individual. WHY was it legal for ME?

1. I was with an APPROVED company! Many companies either approve you THEMSELVES, like cisco. SOME, like the American Redcross outsource it to ****ONE**** company.
2. I was VETTED!
3. I was, or at least they said they tried to get me, ONBOARDED.
4. I was given the information by one approved.
5. I had any needed background checks.
6. I took any needed tests, etc....
7. I was known by the admins or an approved intermediary.
8. I met the legal requirements. I worked at a couple places, for example, where that employee could have been ARRESTED for being a NATIONAL SECURITY RISK!
9. My telling myself their proprietary/classified info was legal and OK! If I told another, it would be an ILLEGAL breach! I was subject to the terms of the contract and traditional custom!

Frankly, that programmer should be blackballed and NEVER allowed to work again in the job. He is a RISK!

What if it were YOUR company? What if you found they stole ALL of your customers? What if one of those records had YOUR financial info, and they cleaned you out? How would you feel THEN?

It is BAD ENOUGH if THEY do it.

BTW MANY employment contracts SPECIFICALLY forbid giving access or information to another! EVERY contract I have seen has FORBIDDEN giving out proprietary or confidential information. They allude to suits or TERMINATION if such a breach occurs!

Steve

There are so many holes in your argument that I can't even begin to address them.

All I can say is, why do you think unions were formed?

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seasoned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by lcombs

There are so many holes in your argument that I can't even begin to address them.

All I can say is, why do you think unions were formed?

What do UNIONS have to do with this? Even UNIONS don't give a member the ability to just work at a particular company. And violation of something such as this can get you fired EVEN if you are BLACK, JEWISH, HOMOSEXUAL, FEMALE, BELOVED, AND in a UNION! HEY, I've SEEN the contracts. I've had to sign enough. I even READ them. And they may have tests that employees, even CONSULTANTS, are MANDATED to take! And RSA tokens were created to help PREVENT such breaches. Do you realize that that company gets as much as like $50/employee JUST for that fob? Companies don't do that just for fun.

Steve
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jacktackett 11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

This has been ILLEGAL for CENTURIES! Employment contracts today SPECIFICALLY FORBID IT!

Steve

While I'm sure there would have been an NDA not sure about a contract. just depends on the state he works in - NC is a right to work state and most contracts have to be carefully worded or they are null and void before your signature is dry.

I remember when exporting pgp code was considered the same as selling an atom bomb - I worked at a place called X-10, K-25 and Y-12 so we always got a kick wearing our pgp tshirts with machine readable code - unfortunately it never registered with the security folks. In fact I got my hands slapped pretty good for sending my boss's boss and email from the president - complete with forged headers. She was ok until she called the phone number and got the white house front desk .

I had to do my fill of paperwork for that one and then after my 'mentoring' session the security guy pulled me aside with his DA-30 and said - how the hell did you do that? show us....

when I told my graduate advisor this (he worked on a little thing called the orange book) the security guys got their own mentoring session - yes, I'm a meanie at times....

I now find I only have one customer that uses a physical RSA token - a Spanish company. The rest have moved on to soft tokens and other authentication modes - the biggest pain is one of them requires a static ip so helping them out while traveling is tricky.

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--Jack
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Michael Mayo

11 years ago

Steve, I totally agree with you although you have to admit that the company could have easily prevented this from happening using the proper security measures. The guy most likely broke his contract. If he was smart, he should have told the company that he had been doing this prior to getting caught. If he had told them after a month or so using it as an example of a security breach keeping seriously accurate records, he may have been given kudos and promoted.

Then again, the same thing may have happened or worse...?

Just saying.
Have a Great Day!
Michael

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

Steve, I totally agree with you although you have to admit that the company could have easily prevented this from happening using the proper security measures. The guy most likely broke his contract. If he was smart, he should have told the company that he had been doing this prior to getting caught. If he had told them after a month or so using it as an example of a security breach keeping seriously accurate records, he may have been given kudos and promoted.

Then again, the same thing may have happened or worse...?

Just saying.
Have a Great Day!
Michael

Yeah, the network guy should have setup something so an american employee couldn't login from china.

That's ANOTHER thing! Prior to about 1999 or so, there was a FEDERAL LAW against exporting ANYTHING containing technology such as that keyfob to ANY other country, including countries like AUSTRALIA or CANADA! YEAH I KNOW! The US was laughed at enough for it, etc... A FOREIGN country could ship the technology HERE, and THEY had the technology, but we couldn't ship the technology THERE! Export of cryptography in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

REMEMBER when browsers had TWO levels? One type was like 64bit, and the others went higher. The lower, I believe it was 64, could be exported, and the other COULDN'T! It was considered a MUNITION, like an atom bomb.

So just sending that keyfob could have been a felony!

Steve

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seasoned

11 years ago

BTW What happens if they have a dual phase employee authentication like most that use the RSA token have today? The employee is without access at home, and the offshore contact may be locked out. The offshore contact will need MORE info, and if the employee gives it to him he will likely get caught. ALSO, he may be locked out, etc....

ONE off hours call on a weekend may trigger an event that could be a disaster! The employee couldn't do anything, the offshore contact may be locked out, and most up the line would be unable to help.

For those that don't know, the RSA token that he shipped is a little keyfob tied to a SPECIFIC random number(Controlled by RSA). It is possible that there is NO other keyfob on the planet that is like it. It flashes a new 6 digit(IIRC) number every minute or so. THAT is used with ANOTHER number(provided by the employee), and a password(set by the employee) under the account(created by the company) to do various tasks like log on to the network. The ONLY way he could use that number would be to call up the off source person and ask for the number that is valid for about a minute tops.

GRANTED every person in the company may have an RSA keyfob that LOOKS the same, and works similarly, but they work with THEIR information, not that of another employee.

Steve

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Michael Mayo

11 years ago

Steve, I'm not saying you were wrong. I'm a X-US Navy Crypto Tech.
I'm just saying that the company should have done more. Maybe now they have the knowledge to cover their assets!

~MM~

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Michael Mayo

11 years ago

Steve, I concur although I can't go into details on the subject to deeply.

Um, I thought it was illegal and a felony?

Guess I need to research this a little more. My rusty brain may need some WD.GOOGLE.40...lol

~MM~

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

Steve, I concur although I can't go into details on the subject to deeply.

Um, I thought it was illegal and a felony?

Guess I need to research this a little more. My rusty brain may need some WD.GOOGLE.40...lol

~MM~

I don't know exactly what you mean. A felony is ALWAYS illegal. Felony(Ranges from having a loaded gun(SOMETIMES! A loaded gun in some cases(They may call it a "felony misdemeanor".). A felon having a gun in his possession, even UNLOADED is a felony.) and some assault to like espionage) simply means it is illegal to the degree that they pretty much DEMAND that you be locked up, and it will likely be months or more and could be your entire life. An infraction(Like running a red light) I don't think EVER gets you locked up. If it did, it would be short. With a misdemeanor(Like a DUI), if you get locked up, it will be for a short period.

Just illustrations I THINK are correct. I haven't checked them out. If people with DUIs get locked up a long time, or go through a regular court, it is usually because of something else. That MIGHT be related to DUI but isn't the DUI itself. With running a red light, if you threaten or hit a cop, it becomes a misdemeanor at least, and he could take you in.

Steve

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goindeep

11 years ago

What an absolute legend of a man! He deserves another award!

Steve, take a chill pill maaan, this is hilarious, illegal or not.

I read it on the Security audit finds dev OUTSOURCED his JOB to China to goof off at work ? The Register
I like the bit down the bottom "Bob is no longer employed by the firm. ®" lol, yeah and he doesnt give a s**t because he now makes more money then all his bosses and all his colleagues and he still gets to watch cat videos!

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Joe Mobley

11 years ago

And... he probably has a nice tax deduction. :rolleyes:

I'm just thinking.

Joe Mobley

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

And... he probably has a nice tax deduction. :rolleyes:

I'm just thinking.

Joe Mobley

Actually, he doesn't. He may have a limit, and it would prevent him from legally taking other deductions and he could be sued, etc...

Steve

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Joe Mobley

11 years ago

There's a limit on tax deductions for contractors?

He may have a limit on what?

If I exceed my Contractor-Deduction-Limit does that mean that I am prevented from taking other business expenses?

I'm not going for it.

Joe Mobley

Originally Posted by seasoned

Actually, he doesn't. He may have a limit, and it would prevent him from legally taking other deductions and he could be sued, etc...

Steve

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Mobley

There's a limit on tax deductions for contractors?

He may have a limit on what?

If I exceed my Contractor-Deduction-Limit does that mean that I am prevented from taking other business expenses?

I'm not going for it.

Joe Mobley

If you say, for example, that you hired a person to do your job, HOW can you take a deduction for training for that job? And you could NOT claim it as an unreimbursed employee expense.

Steve

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MarketingJessie

11 years ago

Lmao is all I can say!

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seasoned

11 years ago

Well, even an NDA means *****NON DISCLOSURE*****! AND, being an AGREEMENT, it IS a contract! STILL, they have course and an employee manual that DO constitute a contract. Right to work or no, you do NOT have the right to steal or assist in stealing, and that is effectively with that "employee" did.

Steve

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seasoned

11 years ago

BTW the one doing the work was in China! You DO realize that, in some cases, being a foreign national working at a US company is a FELONY, RIGHT? You won't even hear THREE SENTENCES before you hear "Are you a US citizen?". If you say "NO", they say SORRY!
I had a friend that went to work at such a place, and an FBI AGENT showed up at ****MY**** office! They were doing a background check on him.

They will NOT go to china in such a case! If you don't check out, DOMESTICALLY , you don't get the job. And I was NOT the only one they interviewed!

Besides, allowing ALL to work would not only be against all sovereignty, but tantamount to allowing NOBODY to get the job. I doubt I have ever had more than 20 competitors for a job. To suddenly have over 6 billion more competitors would be ridiculous. If a few countries I liked did that(None do!) I would want to just go between them all and tell each one SORRY, I am not even a resident in your country, so I don't think I will pay taxes this year.

Steve

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TryBPO

11 years ago

The funny thing is that we look for Interns, contractors, and employees that look to outsource themselves. It's not a requirement, but I view it as a characteristic of a shit-hot, gonna-be-valuable team member.

At first I was going to say that Steve's being a bit ridiculous and going overboard...but it is likely that employee was working with sensitive information and likely had something in his contract that stated he was not authorized to do this. For that reason alone, I actually agree that I wouldn't want this particular guy on my team.

Still...as a general rule...being able to do this is a valuable skill and "outsourcing myself" is a major part of our business today.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TryBPO

At first I was going to say that Steve's being a bit ridiculous and going overboard..

INCREDIBLE! You would NOT want one to do this with YOU! You would NOT want one to do this with a company you use. If you DID, and the "outsourced" person failed or stole, you wuld blame the COMPANY!!!!!!!!! And many speak of contracts, but don't care if they are honored? AGAIN, if YOU do it, you think differently.

Yeah, I KNOW! You don't see the difference. It is ALL about liability, security, and legality. If something goes wrong, the COMPANY suffers. If security breaks, the COMPANY can lose EVERYTHING! If it is illegal, the COMPANY gets fined, etc... THAT is why the company wants SOME level of control. Some times, only the COMPANY knows about the legality, etc... Like the part that was made for my heart valve, etc... Do you think a worker NECESSARILY thought, or was even told, of the type of environment it would be in? What if they cut corners? A lot of food processors sometimes fail to realize certain machinery processes FOOD. What if a network guy fails to realize that a given database handles private customer info and hooks it to a public network?

At one company I worked at we HAD to identify people but were FORBIDDEN to have it tie to anyone. We ended up creating a special random number, and most people can't see the forbidden info, and don't know how the number relates. The data is elsewhere. At that SAME company, there is a silly system that has a bug. It is ILLEGAL to fix it. They are FORBIDDEN TO without government approval, which is HARD to get. What if one got rights and decided to do everyone a favor? If caught, it could destroy the company. BILLIONS of dollars of hardware, software, and data TAINTED!

And some companies are REQUIRED to have people complete tests. They are done one time internally. That foreign contractor couldn't do them unless the employee didn't so, one way or another, OTHER laws are broken. So I'm not being ridiculous. Even if it were INSANE, it IS the LAW and CUSTOM. The custom isn't talked about much, but it is about as sacred as the CLERGY or LAWYERS or DOCTORS. HECK, clergy MAY record it somewhere and lawyers and doctors ****DO****! If it were not as sacred as LAWYERS or DOCTORS, than lawyers and doctors would AUTOMATICALLY be less sacrosanct! Why hassle with the subpoenas, etc...? Just get their system manager to spill his or her guts! You get EVERYTHING!

Even LAWYERS, EVEN in front of CONGRESS are generally not able to force such things out. It is RARE! And trying to do so requires a subpoena that may be challenged.

Steve

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Kay King 11 years ago

I have a somewhat different of this guy's outsourcing. I think he's a creep. He agreed to do a certain amount of work in exchange for a good paycheck. He was allowed to work at home...and he is the one who cheated. He put the company and perhaps it's products and reputation at risk - but may have hurt co-workers, too.

Maybe that company will decid allowing any employees to work from home is risky...maybe they'll realize they were over-paying for work they could outsource cheaper and get rid of some workers.

He can continue his light schedule but probably without a paycheck.
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TryBPO

11 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

INCREDIBLE! You would NOT want one to do this with YOU! You would NOT want one to do this with a company you use. If you DID, and the "outsourced" person failed or stole, you wuld blame the COMPANY!!!!!!!!! And many speak of contracts, but don't care if they are honored? AGAIN, if YOU do it, you think differently.

Yeah, I KNOW! You don't see the difference. It is ALL about liability, security, and legality. If something goes wrong, the COMPANY suffers. If security breaks, the COMPANY can lose EVERYTHING! If it is illegal, the COMPANY gets fined, etc... THAT is why the company wants SOME level of control. Some times, only the COMPANY knows about the legality, etc... Like the part that was made for my heart valve, etc... Do you think a worker NECESSARILY thought, or was even told, of the type of environment it would be in? What if they cut corners? A lot of food processors sometimes fail to realize certain machinery processes FOOD. What if a network guy fails to realize that a given database handles private customer info and hooks it to a public network?

Steve

Steve - Now I'm convinced you either have a misguided, myopic view of outsourcing or you're a troll.

You talk about outsourcing the creation of heart valves and incredibly sensitive or critical information, but the majority of work that's sent overseas is much less intense, exciting, etc. You mention laws, doctors, attorneys, Congress, etc...but you're really just blowing up a much less complicated (and less interesting) part of business.

Look, I run an outsourcing company with my partner from the Philippines. Some of our employees actually outsource their work...in fact, we ASK them to!

Things like keyword research, logo design, transcriptions, etc.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that in the SPECIFIC case that's recently been in the news, I agree it wasn't cool...but this was one example in a much wider industry.

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kindsvater

11 years ago

Genius if you ask me.

If you are a programmer and do not know how to do something, but ask a question and get an answer on stackoverflow, you arguably just "outsourced" your work. You're getting paid for an answer provided by someone else.

.

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Genius if you ask me.

If you are a programmer and do not know how to do something, but ask a question and get an answer on stackoverflow, you arguably just "outsourced" your work. You're getting paid for an answer provided by someone else.

.

Yeah, but THAT isn't giving anyone access to data, access to systems, etc....

Steve

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seasoned

11 years ago

Originally Posted by TryBPO

Steve - Now I'm convinced you either have a misguided, myopic view of outsourcing or you're a troll.

A lot YOU know! (sarc) I work on such things ALL THE TIME! I bought books on the subject. As for being a troll? It is a love/hate relationship here, but I have NEVER gone on any thread, ANYWHERE, with the idea to burn it or just make people angry. Sometimes I help out a lot.

And SERIOUSLY, if that happened to YOU, and you saw what could happen, you would be LOOKING FOR BLOOD!!!!!!

You talk about outsourcing the creation of heart valves and incredibly sensitive or critical information, but the majority of work that's sent overseas is much less intense, exciting, etc.

For the MOST part, YES! But in that heart valve there ARE components speced out a certain way, and some DO cut corners. It happens ALL THE TIME! Sometimes it is meaningless, but sometimes it is DEADLY! Like the overpass in MA that ended up failing on a persons car and KILLING HER! A subcontractor substituted one technology for another new one, and it FAILED!

You mention laws, doctors, attorneys, Congress, etc...but you're really just blowing up a much less complicated (and less interesting) part of business.

If a person steals from a bank, and gets jailed, where is the complication? And if it WERE complicated, it still happened, so what is your point?

Look, I run an outsourcing company with my partner from the Philippines. Some of our employees actually outsource their work...in fact, we ASK them to!

ODD, that you should ASK them to but if you do, that is YOUR business. If someone else hires you, and they vet you and THEY don't know about it, it is THEIR business.

Things like keyword research, logo design, transcriptions, etc.

Well, if it is a medical transcription, and hipaa gets violated, you could be in trouble. and if people find out their websites are getting copied before they even put them up....

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that in the SPECIFIC case that's recently been in the news, I agree it wasn't cool...but this was one example in a much wider industry.

Hey, did you know it is against federal law to do this as a stock broker? If someone asks you to buy Apple, and you buy Seagate, you may be in trouble! If seagate doesn't make as much, you can BET they are going to want you to make good! And if they lose money, and apple loses money, they may want their investment back with 6% for the trouble.

I don't think that guy will go to jail, though he COULD as I stated, but they MIGHT end up charging him a lot. If he was a "REAL" employee, he might get SOME protection, as they do get some protection when trying to do the RIGHT thing. But if he is a "consultant", the paid agency may get hit. If that agency isn't him, they might not do business with him again.

Steve

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taskemann

11 years ago

"The software developer, in his 40s, is thought to have spent his workdays surfing the web, watching cat videos on YouTube and browsing Reddit and eBay."

I understand why he outsourced his job because cat videos & reddit is a evil circle. if you get into it, there's no way out.

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Employee outsources himself.....

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