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Tiger Parenting: FAIL

by thunderbird
23 replies
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Repressive parenting is not something we put into practice, mainly because we want our son to be happy. Anyway, from what I've seen, great creative accomplishment arises out of genuine enthusiasm, not from being whipped and having tyrants hovering over you. However, I have to admit the results of the study did kind of surprise me. I figured that they'd at least produce automatons good at completing tasks placed in front of their faces, if not actually taking initiative in things.

Kids of Tiger Moms Are Worse Off

"Su Yeong Kim, an associate professor of human development and family sciences at the University of Texas, had already been studying the effects of tiger parenting on hundreds of Chinese-American families for more than a decade."....

"'Compared with the supportive parenting profile, a tiger parenting profile was associated with lower GPA and educational attainment, as well as less of a sense of family obligation,' Kim explained in her report. 'It was also associated with more academic pressure, more depressive symptoms, and a greater sense of alienation.'
The bottom line? 'Tiger parenting doesn't produce superior outcomes in kids,' she concluded."

Now, the real secret to great accomplishments: FUN:
Legal World and Childhood Dreams: RICHARD FEYNMAN
"One day he [Richard Feynman] was in the Cafeteria when one of the students, who was fooling around, threw a plate into the air, spinning it like a Frisbee. It had red medallion of Cornell on it. The plate wobbled and spun. The medallion went round at a different rate from the wobble. Intrigued, Feynman went out to calculate the relationship between the wobble and the spin, which was 2:1. It came out of a complicated equation. When people asked him why he did it, he said,
'For fun. It has no importance.'"

So, "tiger parents" out there. If you want your children to do well, let them play, have fun, enjoy life. Then they might learn to play violin like this:

  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I only remember being hit three times - and once was a backhand when I was around 15 for saying "**** this shit" to my mother. LOL - she put me on the floor for it and I knew she was right and never argued.

    The other times I was small - I lied and got caught, and the other time I did something I knew I wasn't supposed to that could have gotten me killed - and when I got my butt pounded for it, I remember Dad saying -- "This isn't hurting you even a little bit compared to what could have happened".

    Mom said when I was a baby just big enough to reach for things on tables, she said no and took something away from me and I reached again and she said "no" and slapped my hand. It hurt my feelings but I knew what "no" meant after that because she put it in context for me. Now that I believe in - you have to put a concept in context for a kid to really learn it. That doesn't mean beat the snot out of them, just a light slap with the word "no" is enough to do it. Like dogs, some people are smarter so you might have to do it twice if the kid isn't real smart or is excessively stubborn. Kids actually WANT to please their parents - they don't always understand how.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Awesome violin solo! Thanks TB ... do you know of any others similarly awesome?
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Another dandy, TB. I'm going to have to search YT for more from these two. Thanks. Sorry if I kind of pulled your thread off the tiger parenting topic. I'd never heard that term before, but I agree it's not the best approach.
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  • Profile picture of the author jay walters
    thanks for the share...
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    I was always under the impression that extraordinary musical talent is usually forged by forcing kids to play by an early age and doing so in a way that's not nescessarily pleasurable...

    Most adults that learn to play at a later age never do their scales, they just learn to play by ear (which is a really bad habit).Furthermore, a lot never learn to read music sheets correctly. Now imagine them as kids.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      I was always under the impression that extraordinary musical talent is usually forged by forcing kids to play by an early age and doing so in a way that's not nescessarily pleasurable... <snip>.
      My son loves singing. His mom used to be a professional singer. I'll hazard he's learning music better and will continue to engage in it more enthusiastically than "forged by forcing kids
      ". He associates music with joy, while the little girl I saw in China practicing violin and begging to pee and being told she had to complete the song first will associate it with torture. They're wee children, not a pieces of steel. "Forging" is something blacksmiths do to make swords, not good parenting or teaching.
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      • Profile picture of the author socialentry
        Within reason, I actually applaud your approach. I think "tiger" parenting has more to do with parents living their own unfulfilled dreams through their kids then anything else.

        Yet, the approach creates world class performers.

        Mozart's parents were "tiger "parents. His father had a very straight plan from day 1. He started giving lesson to Mozart at age 3.

        Speaking of Vanessa-Mae, you might find this tidbit interesting:

        Vanessa-Mae was taught the violin from the age of five. From the age of eight she spent half the day in school and the other half practising. By 12 she was recording and touring the world, and attending school “once every two weeks or once a month”, she says. Her mother made her practise for around four hours every day except her birthday – and even told her, Vanessa-Mae says, that her love for her was “conditional” on her performance as a musician.
        Vanessa-Mae&rsquo;s journey from prodigy to performer - Telegraph
        Vanessa-Mae on the 12 year bitter feud with her mother - Mirror Online

        Even if you truly love violin or piano or whatnot, it is hard for an adult, let alone a kid. Classical music is all about lots and lots of repetition. It just takes so much work to just become decent I cannot imagine how someone can become extraordinary without equal amount of pressure from the parents.

        I never played professionally so YMMV. Your wife must be really good is she sang classically.
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

          Within reason, I actually applaud your approach. I think "tiger" parenting has more to do with parents living their own unfulfilled dreams through their kids then anything else.

          Yet, the approach creates world class performers.

          Mozart's parents were "tiger "parents. His father had a very straight plan from day 1. He started giving lesson to Mozart at age 3.

          Speaking of Vanessa-Mae, you might find this tidbit interesting:



          Vanessa-Mae&rsquo;s journey from prodigy to performer - Telegraph
          Vanessa-Mae on the 12 year bitter feud with her mother - Mirror Online

          Even if you truly love violin or piano or whatnot, it is hard for an adult, let alone a kid. Classical music is all about lots and lots of repetition. It just takes so much work to just become decent I cannot imagine how someone can become extraordinary without equal amount of pressure from the parents.

          I never played professionally so YMMV. Your wife must be really good is she sang classically.
          She sang Chinese pop songs, not classical. That was a good number of years ago. Yes, she's good and has a beautiful voice, reminiscent of Teresa Teng's singing.

          Dennis asked me if I knew of other good violinists, so I posted the Vanessa Mae's performance. I think she's an example of someone having fun and being creative with violin, as was the case with Karen Briggs, but I have no clue what their background training was like, but how their present way of playing violin is.

          I would guess they both had improvisational training in some shape or form because there's a free-flowing effect in their playing that contrasts with the strict metronomical playing of so many classically trained musicians (I studied classical guitar for a time, so I'm not 100% ignorant about this, only 97% ignorant). I'm not any kind of expert on music, but just stating that the people who find joy in their craft will be the ones who convey the joy performing it, while those forced into it, refrained from getting to actually play with their instruments will convey their repression in their performances.

          The best guitarist I ever knew never was forced to practice playing, but rather forced to leave his guitar long enough to eat and sleep sometimes.
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Here's my niece playing violin:

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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      Here's my niece playing violin:

      Isabella Fulford Jersey International - YouTube
      She's pretty good. Does she enjoy it?

      I had a friend that had a violin but didn't play. He wanted to know if I wanted to try because he knew I "played" the guitar. I tried, but he said I played it like a guitar.

      But then when I play the guitar I'm told it sounds like I'm playing a tennis racket. Or that I was making an awful racket, I forget which.

      Clearly, some people just don't understand how to pick out the good notes from the bad ones and rearrange them harmoniously in their mind as they listen. Is that my fault?
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      • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        <snip>
        But then when I play the guitar I'm told it sounds like I'm playing a tennis racket. Or that I was making an awful racket, I forget which. <snip>
        You were playing the song I composed! I am so honored.
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      • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        She's pretty good. Does she enjoy it?<snip>
        I don't have contact with that sibling or any of their kids, so am not in a position to say, but my wild guess she doesn't enjoy it as much as Karen Briggs? Keep in mind, she's only 13 years old, and her playing will undoubtedly evolve and she should have much opportunity to really enjoy the music she's playing
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        • Profile picture of the author socialentry
          What in the world is improvisational training?:confused:

          It will show if you play mechanically, BUT as long as you can hear it, it can be corrected. A classic teacher will put the pupil in his/her place (has happened to me more then once).

          To say "play" a musical instrument is a little bit of a misnomer because it hides the effort nescessary to become proefficient.

          To jam around with friends might be fun. To learn how to play music well requires a lot of dicipline and both Mae and Briggs amply paid their dues to classical music before branching off.

          Music is very mathematical , moreso than most artists are willing to admit. Classical music requires a very very good sense of timing and IMO most people don't have it naturally (most people who play by ears butcher their pieces), and the best way to gain it is through the metronome.



          Scales requires absolutly NO creativity as this is all to ingrain muscle memory to do the acrobatics nescessary to play complex pieces yet they easily make up 1/4 to 1/3 of all the training.

          It's always better to be passionate about what you're doing but no amount of passion can can help you if you do not have the muscle memory that goes with it

          fact is: 99.99999% of kids will not be able or willing to put in the required amount of effort to develop good technique without serious coaxing.

          I don't nescessarily agree with tiger parenting because one of the serious drawback is the kid will kind of become a victim of his own success and do nothing but music for the rest of his life.

          BUT I have no illusions.

          Between a kid that does music "for fun" and a kid that has a tiger parent with a plan for musical training, sorry but the latter will win everytime. Hands down.No contest.

          Will the former be able to amaze youtube audience used to Rihanna, club music and Justin Bieber? Sure. Will he be able to impress most members of the opposite sex? You bet.

          Will he be able to beat the tiger kid in front of a sophisticated audience? Sorry but no.
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          • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
            Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

            <snip>
            Will he be able to beat the tiger kid in front of a sophisticated audience? Sorry but no.
            I'd be interested to find out if the kids who succeed in classical music really are "tiger" kids or if their parents used superior approaches to engage and inspire their children.

            At any rate, I think we've strayed from the original article and somehow latched onto what is perceived to be my definition of tiger parenting, so here is the original research into hundreds of families which I, in all likelihood, misinterpreted and misrepresented in some ways:
            RESEARCH INTO HUNDREDS OF FAMILIES: Kids of Tiger Moms Are Worse Off (ie, on average, perform worse than their peers with "supportive parenting")
            Raised by a strict and emotionally distant tiger mom, Keltner has chosen to bring up her own daughter, Lucy, 9, in a more intuitive, more "Western" way. In "Tiger Babies Strike Back," she writes about the loneliness and anxiety she says was caused by her tiger childhood; harsh words from her mother still resonate, more than 30 years later.
            "These incidents from my childhood really influence how I'm raising my daughter," Keltner tells Yahoo! Shine. "I never want her to feel rotten inside. I knew that I wanted something different for my daughter."
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          • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
            Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

            What in the world is improvisational training?:confused:<snip>
            I would say that Karen Briggs' musical upbringing with lots of improvisational training was the opposite of tiger parenting, and that she performs better than 99.999% of "tiger" kids and that she is happier than 1000% of them.

            Here's an excellent example of "supportive parenting":
            ...doctors told Jacob Barnett’s parents that their autistic son would probably never know how to tie his shoes
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Lindsey Stirling, dub step, dancing, violinist:


    Dr. Michio Kaku, referenced Fenyman, how schools crush interest in science by making it about memorization, not curiousity and fun...
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    So I started poking around on YT for these musician and found all sorts of talented lady violinists I knew nothing about until TB posted this thread. I'm not getting much work done, but I'm having fun exploring this new world. Thanks TB . . . I think.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I didn't listen to the video - didn't realize I had missed the point, I have heard that term used otherwise and didn't missed the point of your statement TB.

    When I see extreme talents sometimes I wonder if the person is glad for the talent or whether it's drilled in to the point of misery like some of the Olympic athletes are pushed.
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    Man, if you don't believe me, sign up your kid up to the local conservatory and then see by yourself what they think of this "improvisational training" thing,karen briggs, and all that.

    I'm sure they'll love you when you tell them the metronome sucks and some jazz violinist who played in a second-rate orchestra is the epitome of music.


    Piano Prince Li Yundi

    In the sixth grade, Li Yundi was punished by his mother for watching too much TV and putting off practice.

    "I called a tricycle to take the TV set to a relative of mine. You can't imagine how hard Yundi cried. It was like his whole world was taken away. He had nothing left. He begged me not to take the TV set away. But I didn't give in. I took the machine away. When I came back, Yundi was playing the piano, and still crying. It took a long time for him to calm down that night."
    That doesn't sound like supportive parenting to me. A lot is lost in translation for face-saving reasons. Yund Li's hands is permanently deformed and cannot close normally for one. Is that supportive parenting?

    I'm done here.I don't care enough to write more. Knock yourself out.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

      Man, if you don't believe me, sign up your kid up to the local conservatory and then see by yourself what they think of this "improvisational training" thing,karen briggs, and all that.

      I'm sure they'll love you when you tell them the metronome sucks and some jazz violinist who played in a second-rate orchestra is the epitome of music.


      Piano Prince Li Yundi



      That doesn't sound like supportive parenting to me. A lot is lost in translation for face-saving reasons. Yund Li's hands is permanently deformed and cannot close normally for one. Is that supportive parenting?

      I'm done here.I don't care enough to write more. Knock yourself out.

      I never said or expressed any of the stuff you're attributing to me, hotshot. If Li Yundi's parents were, indeed, abusive, it proves nothing. Again, read the research into the effects of tiger parenting. Lots of great musicians didn't need to be tortured and psychologically abused to practice their music. I really don't know what you're trying to prove. If you have trouble understanding the concept of improvisational playing, that is a problem with your cognition, not mine.

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