Big Pharma is out of control

by KimW
88 replies
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It is bad enough when the commercials are telling you to have your doctor prescribe you something that has more deadly side effects than benefits,but I just saw a commercial aimed at kids to tell their their parents to have the doctor prescribe something for them.

When are people going to become outraged enough to put a stop to this? :rolleyes:
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Yeah, TELL ME ABOUT IT! And people are angry about them selling toys, candy, and cereal!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author AprilCT
      Unfortunately, Kim, having the kids tell their parents to buy them something is a time-honored method that apparently works rather well. There used to be real problems when one of my boys was young every time we passed by McDonalds, the screams for a happy meal could be heard for a mile.

      There's nothing like an enhanced bottom line to pull out all the stops. It doesn't matter if a drug will kill you, the money you spent ends up in someone's pocket and they get to spend it. How a lot of people live with what they do is not something I can understand.
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        It is bad enough when the commercials are telling you to have your doctor prescribe you something that has more deadly side effects than benefits,but I just saw a commercial aimed at kids to tell their their parents to have the doctor prescribe something for them.

        When are people going to become outraged enough to put a stop to this?
        Yeah, we get that nonsense in AU as well, but it seems to be worse here!

        Over here they, (or at least one editor) wrote an article about how all teenage girls should get their breasts removed arguing that they will have an almost 100% survival rate, from it!


        Eventhough in China it is virtually non existent, (so much for the genetic excuse).


        It is clearly obvious that people are wising up to the ridiculously expensive treatments for Cancer, and it's side effects, and the irony of using radiation to treat something. Hiroshima survivors had a high cancer death rate!!!!


        Adding to the fact that cheap, effective and non-damaging treatments, that won't bankrupt you are leaking into the general public, so clearly more and more people are researching it, and finding other options.

        So, the Phar, com, are losing their biggest cash cow, so they are making up BS, to make up the shortfall.


        Considering how desperate they seem to be it must be a big decrease, or a decrease that is growing substantially from year to year.

        Good!!!

        About time those butchers, started to realize that a human life should be paramount in their minds, not profits!

        Shane
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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

          It is clearly obvious that people are wising up to the ridiculously expensive treatments for Cancer, and it's side effects, and the irony of using radiation to treat something. Hiroshima survivors had a high cancer death rate!!!!

          Shane
          Shane,

          Over and beyond radiation, you can't forget about chemotherapy treatment either. The meds used do state right on the label that they are carcinogenic. When I worked for an oncologist where we gave chemotherapy treatment to patients, nurses had to be in full protective gear while mixing the meds for the patient's particular treatment. This included masks over the nose and mouth so as not to breathe any in, plastic face shields to protect the eyes and skin lest any splashed or there was an accidental spill and had to be covered from head to toe. No short sleeves no matter how hot and well naturally, latex gloves.

          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post


          Here in the US we don't have a health care system. We have a medical industrial complex. The only way health care will ever be reformed it to render it a non-profit system and to allow doctors to give any naturopathic remedy they know will help someone instead of forcing them to give only "approved pharmaceutical" treatments. As long as health is for profit - the profit grows and the health deteriorates.

          You can say that again. I can't tell you how many hours I spent on the phone with insurance companies fighting to get patients the medications they needed simply because the medication the physicians deemed best for the patient weren't offered by the brand the particular insurance company backed, or I should say was in cahoots with. Some of the meds had the exact same ingredients, minus one and it was that "one" that the patient needed for their treatment.

          Then personally we got a letter from Blue Cross stating they had reason to believe that I had diabetes and had to get tests done otherwise our insurance rates and co-pays would increase.

          Where they came up with that from, I haven't a clue! I'm very healthy and at the time I was only being treated for seven small muscle tears between my neck, shoulder blade and armpit that I got in a water skiing accident!

          I still don't get that one! :confused::confused:

          Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author KimW
            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

            Shane,

            Over and beyond radiation, you can't forget about chemotherapy treatment either. The meds used do state right on the label that they are carcinogenic. When I worked for an oncologist where we gave chemotherapy treatment to patients, nurses had to be in full protective gear while mixing the meds for the patient's particular treatment. This included masks over the nose and mouth so as not to breathe any in, plastic face shields to protect the eyes and skin lest any splashed or there was an accidental spill and had to be covered from head to toe. No short sleeves no matter how hot and well naturally, latex gloves.




            You can say that again. I can't tell you how many hours I spent on the phone with insurance companies fighting to get patients the medications they needed simply because the medication the physicians deemed best for the patient weren't offered by the brand the particular insurance company backed, or I should say was in cahoots with. Some of the meds had the exact same ingredients, minus one and it was that "one" that the patient needed for their treatment.

            Then personally we got a letter from Blue Cross stating they had reason to believe that I had diabetes and had to get tests done otherwise our insurance rates and co-pays would increase.

            Where they came up with that from, I haven't a clue! I'm very healthy and at the time I was only being treated for seven small muscle tears between my neck, shoulder blade and armpit that I got in a water skiing accident!

            I still don't get that one! :confused::confused:


            Terra
            Its called profiling Terra.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              Its called profiling Terra.
              For those that think Kim is joking..... A MAJOR cause of kidney damage is diabetes. SO, of course, they want to check it out.

              Steve
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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                For those that think Kim is joking..... A MAJOR cause of kidney damage is diabetes. SO, of course, they want to check it out.

                Steve
                Check what out?

                Why I was undergoing physical therapy for muscles balling and banding because of tears in the facia and muscles causing nerve pain and sever tendonitis?

                Since when does physical therapy to relax and strengthen muscles equate to diabetes or kidney failure? :confused:

                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  ...
                  Since when does physical therapy to relax and strengthen muscles equate to diabetes or kidney failure? :confused:

                  Terra
                  I would think it's rather obvious...

                  Since you were undergoing physical therapy for muscle tears, you were obviously unable to move your body to the degree that you had done before your accident. So automatically, the amount of exercise you were getting decreased, leading to less effective nutrition absorption. Proper exercise influences insulin production. The decrease in exercise also adversely affects waste elimination, increasing stress on your kidneys.

                  It's almost certain that you gained weight while being physically rehabilitated, which is well-known as being a causal factor of diabetes. Less movement equals less calorie-burning which equals weight gain.

                  It's also a well-known fact that a normally healthy person leaves a hospital sicker than when they went in because of all of the germs and crap floating in hospital air. Physical therapy counts as a hospital visit because it's in a medical setting, for medical purposes. You can catch diabetes and kidney disease just from being around sick people.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                    I would think it's rather obvious...

                    Since you were undergoing physical therapy for muscle tears, you were obviously unable to move your body to the degree that you had done before your accident. So automatically, the amount of exercise you were getting decreased, leading to less effective nutrition absorption. Proper exercise influences insulin production. The decrease in exercise also adversely affects waste elimination, increasing stress on your kidneys.

                    It's almost certain that you gained weight while being physically rehabilitated, which is well-known as being a causal factor of diabetes. Less movement equals less calorie-burning which equals weight gain.

                    It's also a well-known fact that a normally healthy person leaves a hospital sicker than when they went in because of all of the germs and crap floating in hospital air. Physical therapy counts as a hospital visit because it's in a medical setting, for medical purposes. You can catch diabetes and kidney disease just from being around sick people.

                    :confused::confused::confused:

                    Steve,

                    Have you ever undergone physical therapy? Do you know how they work at strengthening muscles? It is by specific exercises. I got a lot of exercise and did not gain weight at all. I actually lost a little, haha! And I was never deemed overweight, ever, not even to this day.

                    You post sounds logical in theory, but not in actuality. Sorry.

                    Oh, and diabetes is not contagious at all and kidney disease isn't either. If kidney disease was caused by something that is contagious, you might develop it if you caught whatever lead to it, but you can't catch kidney disease.

                    Terra
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                    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                      :confused::confused::confused:

                      Steve,

                      Have you ever undergone physical therapy? Do you know how they work at strengthening muscles? It is by specific exercises. I got a lot of exercise and did not gain weight at all. I actually lost a little, haha! And I was never deemed overweight, ever, not even to this day.

                      You post sounds logical in theory, but not in actuality. Sorry.

                      Terra
                      What I thought should have been equally obvious it that was TOTALLY tongue-in-cheek Guess I didn't make it quite ridiculous enough.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                        Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                        What I thought should have been equally obvious it that was TOTALLY tongue-in-cheek Guess I didn't make it quite ridiculous enough.
                        Haha! I get you, now.

                        I was just thinking that I couldn't believe somebody as intelligent as Steve would post something so blatantly wrong, lol!

                        Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                  Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                  Check what out?

                  Why I was undergoing physical therapy for muscles balling and banding because of tears in the facia and muscles causing nerve pain and sever tendonitis?

                  Since when does physical therapy to relax and strengthen muscles equate to diabetes or kidney failure? :confused:

                  Terra
                  ACTUALLY, severe muscle damage can ALSO destroy kidneys!!!!!!! Amino acids have AMMONIA! NORMALLY, the amount is regulated a bit, but the normal metabolism creates ammonia, and that is one reason for urine. If there is severe muscle damage, it can kind of put that in overdrive. It ALSO raises creatnine and other levels that make it look like you might have kidney damage.

                  Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                    Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                    ACTUALLY, severe muscle damage can ALSO destroy kidneys!!!!!!! Amino acids have AMMONIA! NORMALLY, the amount is regulated a bit, but the normal metabolism creates ammonia, and that is one reason for urine. If there is severe muscle damage, it can kind of put that in overdrive. It ALSO raises creatnine and other levels that make it look like you might have kidney damage.

                    Steve
                    Steve,

                    If I had suffered severe muscle damage, I'm sure I would have been in surgery as opposed to physical therapy.:rolleyes:

                    Terra
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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                      Steve,

                      If I had suffered severe muscle damage, I'm sure I would have been in surgery as opposed to physical therapy.:rolleyes:

                      Terra
                      I know a person who is a bodybuilder and was trying to push things to the limit. He ended up with SO much muscle damage that he almost died and they kept him for observation because they didn't believe it came from exercising.

                      Ever see HOUSE? He was crippled because they removed part of his thigh muscle because a myoinfarction destroyed so much muscle that he almost had kidney damage.

                      Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
              Originally Posted by KimW View Post

              Its called profiling Terra.
              So what do you think they profiled me as? A petite little white girl who should avoid water skiing in a boat with an engine that has the potential to suddenly stall out and just as quickly start up fast again?

              Again, how does that equate to diabetes?

              Perhaps they could have helped me more if they tried to diagnose the motor's ailment. :p

              Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    People are outraged. We are not being listened to anymore. Get that yet? We are not in control of the country anymore. It doeesn't matter if something is wrong or not. Parents should take that opportunity to teach their children the dangers of phramecueticals, the dangers of advertising, and what they can do to live as free as possible in a society that is completely controlled, and not for our "own good".

    The real outrage -- in case you missed it while everyone was worried about whether Zimmerman is innocent or guilty --- is that as of a few days ago, you can no longer sue a drug company if they feed you something........even off label usage...........and you are sickened, maimed, or killed by it. They are completely and 100% free of responsibility for any damage their drugs do.

    You also can (and probably will) be refused treatment of any illness if your doctor tells you to take any of it and you refuse or ask for an alternative treatment.

    Welcome to Fascism 101.
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    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      People are outraged. We are not being listened to anymore. Get that yet? We are not in control of the country anymore. It doeesn't matter if something is wrong or not. Parents should take that opportunity to teach their children the dangers of phramecueticals, the dangers of advertising, and what they can do to live as free as possible in a society that is completely controlled, and not for our "own good".

      The real outrage -- in case you missed it while everyone was worried about whether Zimmerman is innocent or guilty --- is that as of a few days ago, you can no longer sue a drug company if they feed you something........even off label usage...........and you are sickened, maimed, or killed by it. They are completely and 100% free of responsibility for any damage their drugs do.

      You also can (and probably will) be refused treatment of any illness if your doctor tells you to take any of it and you refuse or ask for an alternative treatment.

      Welcome to Fascism 101.
      I bet every Phar, SEO, or any socialpath for that matter would have a copy of 1984 on their shelves, as well as Metropolis and of course the complete DVD collection of Mussolini, and Hitlers autobiog,.

      No doubt, "Soylent Green" and "Silent Running" would be there too!

      Shane
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

        I bet every Phar, SEO, or any socialpath for that matter would have a copy of 1984 on their shelves, as well as Metropolis and of course the complete DVD collection of Mussolini, and Hitlers autobiog,.

        No doubt, "Soylent Green" and "Silent Running" would be there too!

        Shane
        I had to study 1984 in school - and they never told us it was actually an instruction manual.

        Here in the US we don't have a health care system. We have a medical industrial complex. The only way health care will ever be reformed it to render it a non-profit system and to allow doctors to give any naturopathic remedy they know will help someone instead of forcing them to give only "approved pharmaceutical" treatments. As long as health is for profit - the profit grows and the health deteriorates.

        This law was not any surprise to me. They did the same thing specifically for vaccines a year or two ago - and they are giving untested vaccines with NO accountability now. It was only a matter of time before the rest of the industry got exonerated from accountability. Yet, I am very surprised they included off label usage in the protection. That puts the burden of learning exactly how the drug works on the patient. Anyone who does not know enough physiology and enough chemistry is going to be taking some mighty high risks taking what they are told to take. With a health care reform system that obliterates the person's right to refuse a drug if they don't want to use it, we're going to go from 37th place in health care to the bottom of the list like an elevator in free fall.

        This was discussed to the breaking point in 2005 when they marched in and signed the CODEX treaty without the consent of the public. The impact is just starting to hit us now. Next on the agenda for the US is FORCED vaccines. I'll shoot anyone who tries to stick a needle in me without my express consent. I refuse slave status.
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        Sal
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          This was discussed to the breaking point in 2005 when they marched in and signed the CODEX treaty without the consent of the public. The impact is just starting to hit us now. Next on the agenda for the US is FORCED vaccines. I'll shoot anyone who tries to stick a needle in me without my express consent. I refuse slave status.
          Yep, cracks are starting to show, or people are waking up, so massive profits are drying up.

          The Phar, a****** can't put someone in dept forever, for their cushy lifestyle anymore, or not as easily as the did in the past.

          But as you are saying in the US, and in AU, the rules will get dumber and dumber, to compensate. Or they will up the Fluride dosage, to compensate.


          It is just the death-throes of a dying industry!

          Best to keep away until it is dead and buried, it might still have some life in it?

          Shane
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      People are outraged. We are not being listened to anymore. Get that yet? We are not in control of the country anymore. It doeesn't matter if something is wrong or not. Parents should take that opportunity to teach their children the dangers of phramecueticals, the dangers of advertising, and what they can do to live as free as possible in a society that is completely controlled, and not for our "own good".

      The real outrage -- in case you missed it while everyone was worried about whether Zimmerman is innocent or guilty --- is that as of a few days ago, you can no longer sue a drug company if they feed you something........even off label usage...........and you are sickened, maimed, or killed by it. They are completely and 100% free of responsibility for any damage their drugs do.

      You also can (and probably will) be refused treatment of any illness if your doctor tells you to take any of it and you refuse or ask for an alternative treatment.

      Welcome to Fascism 101.
      (Sigh)

      Didn't you read the link I posted of the supreme court decision? This decision DOES NOT protect EVERY PHARMA from ANY LEGAL ACTION.

      This was a decision of a specific case - tragic as it is and I believe it was a horrible decision. And perhaps it even sets a precedence for future lawsuits. But THIS decision was not a sweeping decision regarding ALL suits against ALL pharmas - as you keep telling people.

      Interesting how you get all worked up over misinformation and redirection yet do the exact same thing yourself - as it suits you.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        (Sigh)

        Didn't you read the link I posted of the supreme court decision? This decision DOES NOT protect EVERY PHARMA from ANY LEGAL ACTION.

        This was a decision of a specific case - tragic as it is and I believe it was a horrible decision. And perhaps it even sets a precedence for future lawsuits. But THIS decision was not a sweeping decision regarding ALL suits against ALL pharmas - as you keep telling people.

        Interesting how you get all worked up over misinformation and redirection yet do the exact same thing yourself - as it suits you.
        I didn't read the link - I read the action. You are right in a way, but it sets precedence and what isn't covered in the bill will be just a minor annoyance for them in court.........the "off label" part of that action is just nasty as hell. Put it together with a few parts of the affordable care act and it's a horror movie waiting to happen.

        What it relates to directly is generic medications that have been approved by the FDA. Um.....we don't have medications that are NOT approved by the FDA. It also sets precedence that ANY drug approved by the FDA will be treated in the same fashion. "Approved by the FDA" is how they are getting it through.

        You can't just read a link - or even just what a bill says...you have to read the actual action and look for where the loopholes are and what other supporting actions there are laying out behind the loopholes. That's why people get so confused about the safety of what is being done. As I said previously - it was just the vaccine industry at first.......now this........and you feel that it will stop there with that precendence...? Take a pharma to court for ANYTHING now and see if you win. My bet is that you won't.

        There still is the possibility of an appeal and having it rescinded, yet the one for vaccines didn't get shut down so it doesn't look good.

        Next in line with the possibility of mandatory vaccines? GMO flu vaccines. No. I'm not kidding.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          I didn't read the link - I read the action. You are right in a way, but it sets precedence and what isn't covered in the bill will be just a minor annoyance for them in court.........the "off label" part of that action is just nasty as hell. Put it together with a few parts of the affordable care act and it's a horror movie waiting to happen.

          What it relates to directly is generic medications that have been approved by the FDA. Um.....we don't have medications that are NOT approved by the FDA. It also sets precedence that ANY drug approved by the FDA will be treated in the same fashion. "Approved by the FDA" is how they are getting it through.

          You can't just read a link - or even just what a bill says...you have to read the actual action and look for where the loopholes are and what other supporting actions there are laying out behind the loopholes. That's why people get so confused about the safety of what is being done. As I said previously - it was just the vaccine industry at first.......now this........and you feel that it will stop there with that precendence...? Take a pharma to court for ANYTHING now and see if you win. My bet is that you won't.

          There still is the possibility of an appeal and having it rescinded, yet the one for vaccines didn't get shut down so it doesn't look good.

          Next in line with the possibility of mandatory vaccines? GMO flu vaccines. No. I'm not kidding.

          Sorry - I posted the link on a FB discussion, but here it is:

          http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...2-142_8njq.pdf

          Understand Sal - I don't disagree with what you are saying here about this ruling. It sets (to my NON-legal mind) a dangerous precedent. My comment was based on how YOU keep presenting it - as if this is a done-deal, you can't sue any pharma anymore. Which right now, is not the case. You make a lot of comments railing against dis-information and then perpetuate it yourself. Just sayin'

          As for big pharma, as someone who has been in the industry for 23/24 years now, I have seen a lot. We joke that one day there will basically be only 2 or 3 pharms. We joked about that 15 years ago. And we are closer to that than anyone realizes.

          While the FDA DOES inspect and levee large fines, and shut down some pharmas (yes - even BIG pharmas) they don't do near enough. Talk to the inspectors in the field and you will understand how thin they are spread. They CAN'T do a better job than they are doing. Add to that the fact that pharma actually give money to the FDA (conflict there?) and you have a system that fails the public they are supposed to protect.

          Anyway - lots of issues on this subject. Very few answers.
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            Sorry - I posted the link on a FB discussion, but here it is:

            http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...2-142_8njq.pdf

            Understand Sal - I don't disagree with what you are saying here about this ruling. It sets (to my NON-legal mind) a dangerous precedent. My comment was based on how YOU keep presenting it - as if this is a done-deal, you can't sue any pharma anymore. Which right now, is not the case. You make a lot of comments railing against dis-information and then perpetuate it yourself. Just sayin'

            As for big pharma, as someone who has been in the industry for 23/24 years now, I have seen a lot. We joke that one day there will basically be only 2 or 3 pharms. We joked about that 15 years ago. And we are closer to that than anyone realizes.

            While the FDA DOES inspect and levee large fines, and shut down some pharmas (yes - even BIG pharmas) they don't do near enough. Talk to the inspectors in the field and you will understand how thin they are spread. They CAN'T do a better job than they are doing. Add to that the fact that pharma actually give money to the FDA (conflict there?) and you have a system that fails the public they are supposed to protect.

            Anyway - lots of issues on this subject. Very few answers.
            Mike - sometimes I word things as if they are "done deals" because the chain of action actually leads up to it. In this case, all the precedents are set - read at least the basic summaries of CODEX (there's thousands of docs throughout participating countries (most of the world) so you won't get to them all in detail, LOL. Check out FDA actions (and remember they are funded by the very companies they are supposed to protect us from. Did you know aspartame is banned in many countries and was banned here twice? D Rumsfeld is the sole reason that it's allowed again. It's still nothing but poison. Period. There is not one plus. Yet it is approved. There are a few drugs that have been pulled a few times due to lawsuits but they are back - same as they were. Approval is bought. Even before a drug is tested approval can be purchased (with the stipulation that research has to prove safety within xx amount of time. Nice eh?).

            Then if you look at the the way laws and actions actually rest on previous actions and documents instead of looking at them as isolated action, then you start seeing the patterns that aren't obvious from one document or action.

            Consider how precedence is used in court - precedence is extremely dangerous is issues such as this one because a little linguistic tweaking can ram through completely outrageous power grabs.

            Now note -- this action at this very moment only covers GENERIC drugs..........that is the "same" drug made by multiple entities after the original patent runs out on the drug. The drugs are cheaper because there is production competition and so people gravitate to the cheaper drug. The safety guarantees of those drugs was just trumped.

            Now look at the patent holders. One company. For one thing, it is easier to pinpoint the fact that the drug is a problem when originally still in the ownership of one company so it's harder to rule against a lawsuit. But powerful pharmas want their money that they are losing when their patent expires. So the answer is to make generics a little scary so customers will spend the extra for the safety.

            Now note -- the clause in the action that specifies "approved by the FDA". Well all pharmaceuticals are approved in this country or they aren't on the market. That's how the FDA makes their big bucks. SO we now have a very strong precedence for FDA power. (there are others, this is just this PARTICULAR incidence.

            Now - big pharma, with all their crafty lawyers gets a lawsuit against an FDA approved drug that is still in their patent...................and suddenly, you have "FDA approval", with precedence, standing in the middle of that lawsuit. Who wins now isn't a matter of justice - it's chess. And I guarantee you lawyers that make the kind of money pharma pays them play one freaking mean game of chess.

            Also consider that we are now in a society that is run on crony capitalism. So if I sound like it's a done deal.........it's because basically it is. The only thing that will stop them is to have a massive enough upheaval of protest that the FDA itself gets restructured. There's a LOT of other areas of take down we need to do before that happens.
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
              Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

              Mike - sometimes I word things as if they are "done deals" because the chain of action actually leads up to it. In this case, all the precedents are set - read at least the basic summaries of CODEX (there's thousands of docs throughout participating countries (most of the world) so you won't get to them all in detail, LOL. Check out FDA actions (and remember they are funded by the very companies they are supposed to protect us from. Did you know aspartame is banned in many countries and was banned here twice? D Rumsfeld is the sole reason that it's allowed again. It's still nothing but poison. Period. There is not one plus. Yet it is approved. There are a few drugs that have been pulled a few times due to lawsuits but they are back - same as they were. Approval is bought. Even before a drug is tested approval can be purchased (with the stipulation that research has to prove safety within xx amount of time. Nice eh?).

              Then if you look at the the way laws and actions actually rest on previous actions and documents instead of looking at them as isolated action, then you start seeing the patterns that aren't obvious from one document or action.

              Consider how precedence is used in court - precedence is extremely dangerous is issues such as this one because a little linguistic tweaking can ram through completely outrageous power grabs.

              Now note -- this action at this very moment only covers GENERIC drugs..........that is the "same" drug made by multiple entities after the original patent runs out on the drug. The drugs are cheaper because there is production competition and so people gravitate to the cheaper drug. The safety guarantees of those drugs was just trumped.

              Now look at the patent holders. One company. For one thing, it is easier to pinpoint the fact that the drug is a problem when originally still in the ownership of one company so it's harder to rule against a lawsuit. But powerful pharmas want their money that they are losing when their patent expires. So the answer is to make generics a little scary so customers will spend the extra for the safety.

              Now note -- the clause in the action that specifies "approved by the FDA". Well all pharmaceuticals are approved in this country or they aren't on the market. That's how the FDA makes their big bucks. SO we now have a very strong precedence for FDA power. (there are others, this is just this PARTICULAR incidence.

              Now - big pharma, with all their crafty lawyers gets a lawsuit against an FDA approved drug that is still in their patent...................and suddenly, you have "FDA approval", with precedence, standing in the middle of that lawsuit. Who wins now isn't a matter of justice - it's chess. And I guarantee you lawyers that make the kind of money pharma pays them play one freaking mean game of chess.

              Also consider that we are now in a society that is run on crony capitalism. So if I sound like it's a done deal.........it's because basically it is. The only thing that will stop them is to have a massive enough upheaval of protest that the FDA itself gets restructured. There's a LOT of other areas of take down we need to do before that happens.
              Nice write up Sal.

              Like I said above - I have been in this industry for about 24 years. I have worked for or at pretty much every big pharma and many small outfits - including:

              Novartis
              Merck
              Bristol Myers Squibb
              Schering Plough
              Pfizer
              Warner Lambert (before Pfizer bought them)
              Borrughs Welcome (before Warner Lambert bought them)
              Glaxo
              Smith Kline Beechem (before they became Glaxo Smith Kline)
              Syntex (gone)
              Sandoz (now the generic branch of Novartis)
              Ranbaxy
              Teva
              Watson Labs

              And on and on

              I have sat in countless meetings over the years regarding FDA, the regulations, and so on. So I am very familiar with many of the things you wrote.

              However - it's still not a sweeping "given" that pharmas will win every case. A disproportionate amount? Yes. Especially the deep-pocket pharmas.

              As much as the FDA can be very inept and/or corrupt, they can and DO protect the general public in many ways - ways in which no one talks about because let's face it - it's not news.

              What goes on at the highest levels of the FDA and big pharma (corporate government?) is not the same as what goes on in the field. A good example is Schering Plough...

              Back in 2002 they got slapped around quite a bit by the FDA and were hit with fines totaling well over half a billion. They were ordered to shut down a portion of their manufacturing plant until all problems were fixed. Between the updates to their facility and the lost business, that totaled ANOTHER billion dollars.

              Consent Decree: Schering-Plough - FDA Consent Decree

              News story of the initial fine: Schering to Pay a Fine of $500 Million - Los Angeles Times

              Like I said - there is a big need for improvement for the protection of the consumers. No denying that. But again, sweeping generalizations that are really not representative of the whole truth does not help and really creates resentment and confusion.

              Whether you want to hear it or not, pharm companies - large and small, brand or generic - are also responsible for saving many lives as well as improving the quality of life for many people.

              However, being that the large ones are mostly publicly traded companies, this creates the whole "bottom line" frenzy. Increase profits and reduce expenses at any cost. They pump tens and hundreds of millions in to law firms because it's cheaper than the billions in fines and payouts. Big business...

              I think the first step to improvement is to remove the FDA from the pharmas pockets. Total conflict of interest.

              Anyway, we can talk this stuff all day I can tell a bunch of stories...but it won't change a thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    BTW - Mike? I just looked back for your link and you didn't post it. Could ya give it to us please?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Without a link posted - it's sort of hard to check it out

      I just saw a commercial aimed at kids to tell their their parents to have the doctor prescribe something for them
      And in California - millions of dollars have been allocated and a pilot program started to teach school children about the new health care program....and to teach them to show parents how to take advantage of the program. That wording is straight from what the program states as its mission.

      In other countries, we call this 'use' of youth "propaganda" - here we present it as "educating"...but there's always a bottom line involved. When children are taught to exert influence on adults - there's some entity looking to increase its power base or bank account....or both.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Terra,
    profiling does not occur just by visual contact or inspection.
    Even what we do in online marketing is all about profiling to an extent.
    In medical, they take a list of markers for a certain situation and run it through their data.
    If say your information hits on 6 of 10 markers, they may send you a letter saying get something checked.

    As many of us have said,big pharma is for profit.
    Medical insurance is for profit.

    If they get you to get checked out and nothing is wrong, you pay office visit and have peace of mind.
    If something is wrong it has been caught early and can usually be controlled aand/or contained.
    Either way they save money in the long run and increase theiur profits.

    Does this make sense to you?
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Terra,
      profiling does not occur just by visual contact or inspection.
      Even what we do in online marketing is all about profiling to an extent.
      In medical, they take a list of markers for a certain situation and run it through their data.
      If say your information hits on 6 of 10 markers, they may send you a letter saying get something checked.

      As many of us have said,big pharma is for profit.
      Medical insurance is for profit.

      If they get you to get checked out and nothing is wrong, you pay office visit and have peace of mind.
      If something is wrong it has been caught early and can usually be controlled aand/or contained.
      Either way they save money in the long run and increase theiur profits.

      Does this make sense to you?
      Yes it does, Kim.

      I think that because I was so healthy, take no monthly medications for any conditions and therefore had very few doctor visits except my annual checkups and allergic related incidents, they were perhaps afraid something was going to fall through the cracks. They probably chose diabetes because of its rise worldwide with most cases going undiagnosed.

      Yes, it was to save them money in the future if indeed I did have it. I understand that. But to send the letter they did while undergoing physical therapy was a stupid cover, I think.

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        Yes it does, Kim.

        I think that because I was so healthy, take no monthly medications for any conditions and therefore had very few doctor visits except my annual checkups and allergic related incidents, they were perhaps afraid something was going to fall through the cracks. They probably chose diabetes because of its rise worldwide with most cases going undiagnosed.

        Yes, it was to save them money in the future if indeed I did have it. I understand that. But to send the letter they did while undergoing physical therapy was a stupid cover, I think.

        Terra
        Ha!
        I think that is just an example of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Shane,

          Over and beyond radiation, you can't forget about chemotherapy treatment either. The meds used do state right on the label that they are carcinogenic. When I worked for an oncologist where we gave chemotherapy treatment to patients, nurses had to be in full protective gear while mixing the meds for the patient's particular treatment. This included masks over the nose and mouth so as not to breathe any in, plastic face shields to protect the eyes and skin lest any splashed or there was an accidental spill and had to be covered from head to toe. No short sleeves no matter how hot and well naturally, latex gloves.
          Yep, when my Mother went through that, they always put masks on, a blue plastic sheet or body cover and gloves, l thought to protect the patient against infection. I will think twice, about from now on!

          Yep, didn't want to throw Chemo, into the mix, since Radiation Therapy was bad enough!


          funny you mentioned the diabetes test for a muscle issue, my Mother recently showed me a flyer showing how getting a hearing aid, can decrease the like-hood of getting dementia???

          God knows how?

          I don't see a lot of deaf people in our society being absent minded, so it sounds like the same crap you experienced.


          They did offer the first visit for free and the aid, but further checkups to keep it working well, hmmmm. A gov, initiative of course!


          Seems like the socialpath's are getting sneaky, l suppose a desperate organization with a drying up profit base, would.


          Shane
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          • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
            Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

            Yep, when my Mother went through that, they always put masks on, a blue plastic sheet or body cover and gloves, l thought to protect the patient against infection. I will think twice, about from now on!

            Shane
            The mask and gloves are also to protect the patient too as chemotherapy drugs practically kill a person's immune system so something my body fought against and prevented from fully manifesting, something I'm not even aware was trying to infect me, could indeed cause major problems for a chemo patient, like death due to the practically non-existent immune system of the patient.

            But the rest, now you know.

            Terra
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Crying or even protesting against Pharmaceutical companies will never accomplish anything. You have to change the economics of it and that probably means paying some kind of tax (don't go gaga over the word).

            This study came out close to two decades ago

            Apoptosis induced by a human milk protein

            Where breast milk was shown to induce apoptosis (self destruct signal). I followed the development for years but almost nothing happened for the obvious reason that the research had the potential to go nowhere in terms of being patentable. more here

            Breast Milk Kills Cancer Cells & Shrinks Tumors | Collective-Evolution

            Finally this year I saw something about it again that "maybe" there may be a treatment from it in a few years. If a bounty funded by tax dollars was available (and growing over the years) where companies could be eligible for hundreds if not Billions of dollars then we might see an economic system that will push development of these ideas

            but if the only incentive and means of compensation is the ability to sell patented drugs - some things will never really be studied or developed
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

            Yep, when my Mother went through that, they always put masks on, a blue plastic sheet or body cover and gloves, l thought to protect the patient against infection. I will think twice, about from now on!

            Yep, didn't want to throw Chemo, into the mix, since Radiation Therapy was bad enough!


            funny you mentioned the diabetes test for a muscle issue, my Mother recently showed me a flyer showing how getting a hearing aid, can decrease the like-hood of getting dementia???

            God knows how?

            I don't see a lot of deaf people in our society being absent minded, so it sounds like the same crap you experienced.
            Well, today they are talking about how a bunch of idiots are saying they just found that retiring later can delay dementia. *****************DUH****************!

            They found that out decades ago, and there HAS been a pattern. Reduction in stimulation soon leads to dementia. WHY? Because exercise limits it.

            So WHY do the deaf not have that happen as often as hearing people may? Most deaf have COMPENSATED for it all their lives. And why does it not happen to the young? Science generally says the brain stops really growing around 35. Until then, you aren't so likely to get dementia.

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    And no, I've never had to undergo physical therapy, although I HAVE done an youtube-fail-quality endo whilst barefooting like 20 years ago. Nothing quite like doing cartwheels across the water at 40 miles an hour.

    What I meant to get at previously is there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to what insurance companies come up with. I think they just go fishing for something to see if they can hook you on something.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      And no, I've never had to undergo physical therapy, although I HAVE done an youtube-fail-quality endo whilst barefooting like 20 years ago. Nothing quite like doing cartwheels across the water at 40 miles an hour.
      LOL! I know that must have hurt. At least you did cartwheels and didn't fall to a sitting position and keep going across the water at 40 miles per hour getting a free but painful enema!

      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I have to concede my argument to you, Mike. Excellent debating.

    Here's to hoping that the more logically supported position (yours) continues to prevail in the matter!

    I don't rule out that things are very probable to progress the way I see them if measures are not taken to sweep the corruption out of the agency, though. I still will bow to the fact that I jumped the starting gun on the issue.

    Kudos.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I have to concede my argument to you, Mike. Excellent debating.

      Here's to hoping that the more logically supported position (yours) continues to prevail in the matter!

      I don't rule out that things are very probable to progress the way I see them if measures are not taken to sweep the corruption out of the agency, though. I still will bow to the fact that I jumped the starting gun on the issue.

      Kudos.
      Thanks Sal

      One more thing I should point out...

      FDA corruption - while it does exist on some levels - is only secondary to what I can only call ineptness down through the ranks. Aside from being over extended, inspectors come and go quickly and every inspector is different. Some are good and actually find issues that NEED attention and do some good. But most are so focused on crossed T's and dotted I's that they don't see the big picture. They also get all caught up in the power game. They have power over a company and they sometimes use that...

      Many don't know one drug from another - they really only inspect your processes. But the processes are put in place by the pharmaceutical companies. According to the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 21, which governs Good Manufacturing Practice (GMP) it only specifies that you have to create "common sense" procedures - and then you must follow them.

      So the company makes their own rules and the FDA makes sure you are following your rules.

      I know that doesn't seem like a good idea, but in reality it's the only way. Imagine trying to write rules of how to make drugs that fit every drug maker, drug type, etc. It wouldn't work.

      Good inspectors will weed out those companies who make their rules too loose. Other inspectors focus on crap.

      Currently I am at a company that recently had it's yearly visit from the FDA. This particular inspector only focused on a system that monitors the plant's environmental conditions. My client spent 3 days printing out the 2012 alarm report to make sure that each and every excursion from the norm was properly investigated and resolved. Total waste of time.

      Many of these inspectors spend 3 - 5 years at the FDA then become consultants to the pharma companies to help them pinpoint issues and get them ready for FDA audits - for BIG money.

      It's a circle-jerk
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        Thanks Sal

        One more thing I should point out...

        FDA corruption - while it does exist on some levels - is only secondary to what I can only call ineptness down through the ranks. Aside from being over extended, inspectors come and go quickly and every inspector is different. Some are good and actually find issues that NEED attention and do some good. But most are so focused on crossed T's and dotted I's that they don't see the big picture. They also get all caught up in the power game. They have power over a company and they sometimes use that...

        Many don't know one drug from another - they really only inspect your processes. But the processes are put in place by the pharmaceutical companies. According to the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 21, which governs Good Manufacturing Practice (GMP) it only specifies that you have to create "common sense" procedures - and then you must follow them.

        So the company makes their own rules and the FDA makes sure you are following your rules.

        I know that doesn't seem like a good idea, but in reality it's the only way. Imagine trying to write rules of how to make drugs that fit every drug maker, drug type, etc. It wouldn't work.

        Good inspectors will weed out those companies who make their rules too loose. Other inspectors focus on crap.

        Currently I am at a company that recently had it's yearly visit from the FDA. This particular inspector only focused on a system that monitors the plant's environmental conditions. My client spent 3 days printing out the 2012 alarm report to make sure that each and every excursion from the norm was properly investigated and resolved. Total waste of time.

        Many of these inspectors spend 3 - 5 years at the FDA then become consultants to the pharma companies to help them pinpoint issues and get them ready for FDA audits - for BIG money.

        It's a circle-jerk
        Circle jerk is just the half of it, Mike.

        I might have folded my argument but I know I'm right that if the corruption isn't stopped, we're headed for a real drug disaster.

        You point out one of the things that makes me cringe -- they are more worried about processes than chemistry. Who in their right mind would approve Tamiflu? Nobody but a friend of Rumsfeld that likes money. It's toxic waste. Yet there it is and any chemist you handed it to without naming it and had them test it would be just horrified to find out it's an approved drug.

        Who cares about the process when the result is toxic waste?

        The whole medical industrial complex is just corrupt to the core (but find me one of our systems that has been spared from corruption), and I don't foresee it getting better in the near future. I protect myself in any way possible -- including (and Kim's gonna hate this one) refusing to become a doner. I want to know if I'm in an accident that someone is going to try to save me.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          Circle jerk is just the half of it, Mike.

          I might have folded my argument but I know I'm right that if the corruption isn't stopped, we're headed for a real drug disaster.

          You point out one of the things that makes me cringe -- they are more worried about processes than chemistry. Who in their right mind would approve Tamiflu? Nobody but a friend of Rumsfeld that likes money. It's toxic waste. Yet there it is and any chemist you handed it to without naming it and had them test it would be just horrified to find out it's an approved drug.

          Who cares about the process when the result is toxic waste?

          The whole medical industrial complex is just corrupt to the core (but find me one of our systems that has been spared from corruption), and I don't foresee it getting better in the near future. I protect myself in any way possible -- including (and Kim's gonna hate this one) refusing to become a doner. I want to know if I'm in an accident that someone is going to try to save me.
          Yeah, for sure Sal. I was just pointing out that the issues are multiple - corruption AND the process of an FDA inspection and their inspectors.

          It used to take quite a few years to get a drug approved, but they have streamlined the process - especially if the company claims that the drug they want approved is urgently needed somewhere. Back in the old days, when they would get their drug patent, it would last 17 years but by the time the drugs passed FDA inspection, roughly 12 years would go by. They used to want to see A LOT more studies for side effects, etc.

          Like I said, there are many good and life saving drugs on the market. But with competition, etc. drug companies seem to be inventing illnesses to sell their wares. Funniest example I can remember is the commercial for restless leg syndrome...

          ALL drugs are toxic - but not all are toxic when used correctly and for limited time. They become toxic because they are over prescribed, people abuse them, etc. and because people are on MORE drugs then ever, there are the effects of combining drugs.

          Sidebar: When I worked at Merck in NJ, this was the chemical plant that made the active pharmaceutical ingredients (API) for different drugs. The chemicals they use actually eat through stainless steel inside of 2 weeks. Some react violently and explosively when mixed with air or water. There were "safe buildings" that we were trained to go to if there was an emission (ha) of some chemical and the chemical cloud was coming your way.

          The ground there is so contaminated that when they dig up dirt (road repairs, etc) that had to actually burn the dirt before replacing it to get rid of the chemicals. I saw a back hoe hit on a boulder in a ditch and the spark caused the ground to catch fire...

          I could go on - LOL - but it's dinner time here.
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  • Profile picture of the author NZSchollar
    There are only a hand full of countries that are allowed to advertise drug brands. The ones that I know are USA, NZ, AUS ... they really need to stop these. Have also heard stories about doctors getting commissions every time they prescribe a certain brand to their patients .. makes me sick.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by NZSchollar View Post

      There are only a hand full of countries that are allowed to advertise drug brands. The ones that I know are USA, NZ, AUS ... they really need to stop these. Have also heard stories about doctors getting commissions every time they prescribe a certain brand to their patients .. makes me sick.
      True, you're right and... true

      The pharma industry is one big conflict of interest. But the reason this is all allowed is because of the old Pharma executives that are now sitting in government positions. Yet ANOTHER conflict...
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by NZSchollar View Post

      There are only a hand full of countries that are allowed to advertise drug brands. The ones that I know are USA, NZ, AUS ... they really need to stop these. Have also heard stories about doctors getting commissions every time they prescribe a certain brand to their patients .. makes me sick.
      There WAS a time when pharma AND lawyers couldn't advertise! THEN, there was a time when people couldn't advertise for certain people, such as lawyers. TODAY, you may see a drug advertised follwed by some jerk that is advertising a firm that advertises attorneys as if the speaker him or her self is a lawyer!

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
        Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

        There WAS a time when pharma AND lawyers couldn't advertise! THEN, there was a time when people couldn't advertise for certain people, such as lawyers. TODAY, you may see a drug advertised follwed by some jerk that is advertising a firm that advertises attorneys as if the speaker him or her self is a lawyer!

        Steve
        I think they are getting out of control, the ads for particular medicines and vaccines and what not.

        Have you seen the ads for the shingles virus vaccination?

        They're using scare tactics on the elderly for crying out loud!

        My mother-in-law came over the other day and told me she needed to get the shingles vaccination. I said, "You didn't fall for their scare tactics saying that if you had chicken pox as a kid, the virus is already in you did you?"

        She responded, "Yeah, but I don't want to hurt that bad." She was referring to horror stories they had elderly people telling in theses ads. I told her if she was smart, she would take her chances, only a small percentage of the elderly get shingles and asked her how many people did she know that didn't have chicken pox and how many people does she know personally who got shingles?

        She only said, "yeah" and then changed the subject. I have no idea if she will follow my advice or not. Maybe I'll find out later...she loves to talk for hours about any and everything, lol! So I'm sure she will tell me eventually, either way.

        Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author NZSchollar
    Yeah, the amount of influence they hold over government is astounding, and a little scary.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    While Steve may not be dead on with you Terra, he does know what he is talking about.
    Before I was blessed enough to get my transplant and was doing daily dialysis, there were times Steve and I would talk about both medical and pharmaceutical subjects.
    I'd say we both know much more about it than we would have wanted to if we had not gone through what we did.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      While Steve may not be dead on with you Terra, he does know what he is talking about.
      Before I was blessed enough to get my transplant and was doing daily dialysis, there were times Steve and I would talk about both medical and pharmaceutical subjects.
      I'd say we both know much more about it than we would have wanted to if we had not gone through what we did.
      I don't doubt that a bit and I am glad that you both had someone to talk to that totally understood. There is no doubt about that!

      But still, I think in my case, my insurance company went overboard and to me personally, it felt like harassment and bullying. I can't stand the abuse of power!

      Terra
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        I don't doubt that a bit and I am glad that you both had someone to talk to that totally understood. There is no doubt about that!

        But still, I think in my case, my insurance company went overboard and to me personally, it felt like harassment and bullying. I can't stand the abuse of power!

        Terra
        Terra,
        I agree. I think the insurance companies do abuse us all.

        I think from this thread and others,you know I have strong issues with the medical and insurance and pharma.

        My point was not that Steve and I had people to talk to.

        Of course the insurance companies mess with us. It is a con.


        I've gotten letters saying I have to take generic Lipitor because the insurance wont pay for brand name.
        Yet the makers of Lipitor will let me buy for $4 if I use the name brand.


        Hospitals and Drs do know have to have rhyme or reason in what or how they bill us. A recent report showed that for the same operation, one hospital charged $116,000 and another only charged $26,000.

        If we have insurance we are charged an outrageous price then immediately the price gets reduced by an "allotted" amount worked out by the hospital and the insurance company.

        While the thread was stated because I think big pharma is out of control by telling kids to have their parents to have the doctors prescribe them something, reality is all the whole damn system is out of control and needs to be reigned in.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

        I don't doubt that a bit and I am glad that you both had someone to talk to that totally understood. There is no doubt about that!

        But still, I think in my case, my insurance company went overboard and to me personally, it felt like harassment and bullying. I can't stand the abuse of power!

        Terra
        NOBODY is disagreeing with you there! I was just explaining THEIR side! I watched Stossel a few days ago, and he showed jerks that CLEARLY weren't injured, but RICH because they supposedly WERE.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Well, today they are talking about how a bunch of idiots are saying they just found that retiring later can delay dementia. *****************DUH****************!

          They found that out decades ago, and there HAS been a pattern. Reduction in stimulation soon leads to dementia. WHY? Because exercise limits it.

          So WHY do the deaf not have that happen as often as hearing people may? Most deaf have COMPENSATED for it all their lives. And why does it not happen to the young? Science generally says the brain stops really growing around 35. Until then, you aren't so likely to get dementia.

          Steve

          Yep, true, the socialpaths have a tough choice, work people longer for more taxes or let them retire and get the money through descriptions???? :rolleyes:


          I suppose they will go with whatever makes the most?

          Shane
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by tagiscom View Post

            Yep, true, the socialpaths have a tough choice, work people longer for more taxes or let them retire and get the money through descriptions???? :rolleyes:


            I suppose they will go with whatever makes the most?

            Shane
            Well the latest "researchers" didn't really say WHY, but I did. The work forces stimulation to hold it at bay. I'm certainly NOT on the side of corporations, because I think they are part of the CAUSE! They try to make sure we ALL get our daily dose of poison.

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
              Well the latest "researchers" didn't really say WHY, but I did. The work forces stimulation to hold it at bay. I'm certainly NOT on the side of corporations, because I think they are part of the CAUSE! They try to make sure we ALL get our daily dose of poison.

              Steve
              Yep, wake up in the morning and turn on the news, which overall has some depressing story or story's about murderers or priests with zero self control.

              I prefer to read the paper or see it online if it is really worth it!

              I prefer not to be depressed by psychos, on tv! I know they exist and have had horrible lives, or are just screwed up, and has committed this and that, that is enough.

              Being depressed on a daily bases, so l stay home and buy their s***, isn't on my agenda.

              Or drinking tap water all day, so l am docile and can be controlled more easily!


              I can understand their fear of losing control, when soccer morons trash a street because their team lost, they need controlling, but the rest of us, are more civilized than that!

              When people BS me l can usually figure out their plan!

              Shane
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                Of course the insurance companies mess with us. It is a con.
                And it's even creating jobs for us. For the first time today I became aware of "navigators" - tens of thousands of jobs created at up to $48/hr for people to "help" the public sign up for the new health care exchanges.

                Medical experience or insurance experience required? Nope. In fact, claim is it's a good job for community organizers. Wonder what else they will be signing people up for at the same time? In California it's said there will be 21,000 "navigators" hired - and thousands more in the other states.
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                • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
                  I actually saw one of those kids commercial a while back selling one of those glow in the dark/nightlight pillow type thingy's where the guy hawking it said "If your parents really love you they will want to keep you safe and buy one of these for you"

                  I about had a kanipshion fit right then and there.

                  Patrick
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                  • Profile picture of the author KimW
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    And it's even creating jobs for us. For the first time today I became aware of "navigators" - tens of thousands of jobs created at up to $48/hr for people to "help" the public sign up for the new health care exchanges.

                    Medical experience or insurance experience required? Nope. In fact, claim is it's a good job for community organizers. Wonder what else they will be signing people up for at the same time? In California it's said there will be 21,000 "navigators" hired - and thousands more in the other states.
                    Kay,
                    Not sure if you are agreeing with me or not,but it sounds like it isgoing to cost us a lot more money than before.


                    Originally Posted by Enfusia View Post

                    I actually saw one of those kids commercial a while back selling one of those glow in the dark/nightlight pillow type thingy's where the guy hawking it said "If your parents really love you they will want to keep you safe and buy one of these for you"

                    I about had a kanipshion fit right then and there.

                    Patrick
                    Patrick,
                    While I do see some relationship between my post and your example, there is a big difference between buying a pillow and a chemical compound that probably has many dangerous substances in it to be used on children.
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                • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  And it's even creating jobs for us. For the first time today I became aware of "navigators" - tens of thousands of jobs created at up to $48/hr for people to "help" the public sign up for the new health care exchanges.

                  Medical experience or insurance experience required? Nope. In fact, claim is it's a good job for community organizers. Wonder what else they will be signing people up for at the same time? In California it's said there will be 21,000 "navigators" hired - and thousands more in the other states.
                  Who's paying for these new hires, the states or the feds?
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                  • Profile picture of the author KimW
                    Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                    Who's paying for these new hires, the states or the feds?
                    Either way you slice it it boils down to us,the American people.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                      Either way you slice it it boils down to us, the American people.

                      If true...

                      I'd like to know the details.

                      The feds, the states or a combo or maybe some other source?

                      If it's from the feds then it's probably from the extra taxes raised by the bill - Medicare Surcharge - on folks earning over 200K per year and couples making over 250k per year and many other assorted taxes on those doing quite well...



                      ... not the average American.



                      For example, I believe there is a ACA surcharge on all home sales of 2 or 3% if the home seller makes more than 500K or 600K on the sale to help pay for the bill.

                      Perhaps the feds give the states extra funds to help their people become aware of the new law or it comes out of the 90% the feds pay for the setup of the state exchanges.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                        If true...

                        I'd like to know the details.

                        The feds, the states or a combo or maybe some other source?

                        If it's from the feds then it's probably from the extra taxes raised by the bill - Medicare Surcharge - on folks earning over 200K per year and couples making over 250k per year and many other assorted taxes on those doing quite well...



                        ... not the average American.



                        For example, I believe there is a ACA surcharge on all home sales of 2 or 3% if the home seller makes more than 500K or 600K on the sale to help pay for the bill.

                        Perhaps the feds give the states extra funds to help their people become aware of the new law or it comes out of the 90% the feds pay for the setup of the state exchanges.
                        The average american is SUPPOSED to be a taxpayer, so YES, the AVERAGE american!!!!!! The US needs every ATOM of metal that may be on those coins to pay for INSURANCE, FRAUD, KICKBACKS, TAXES ON TAXES, etc... And some doctors and owners of drug companies, hospitals, etc... want BIG houses. WHAT do you think they will do with all the extra money and taxes? Here's a hint! ********INFLATION********! and DON'T FORGET, there is a 2%+ NEW tax on medical equipment/supplies, etc.... You think SOMEHOW the hospitals will absorb that? DREAM ON!

                        So you think doctors should risk their lives for less, and have less free time while people go around doing NOTHING for over $40/hour? And HERE'S a thought! Watch out for a NOVEL idea! I bet nobody ever thought of this before!

                        1. IMPROVE EDUCATION!
                        2. Make it ENGLISH ONLY, written by one that has STANDARD english as their main language from birth.
                        3. DON'T BE VERBOSE!

                        You know DARN well the "navigators" on average WILL NOT HELP! No OTHER ones have, so WHY SHOULD THEY!

                        People shouldn't have to specify the language, and translations are often NOT precise!

                        Steve
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                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                      Either way you slice it it boils down to us,the American people.
                      Exactly. Just like we fund everything else
                      As for your original post are you talking about the acme commercial? That's the current one around here aimed at kids.
                      There was another one today for epipen that didn't mentioned kids, but the whole commercial just showed kids.
                      The only redeeming factor with those, or any pharmaceutical commercial is with listing the side effects. But I have a feeling most people don't pay attention to them.
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                      • Profile picture of the author KimW
                        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                        Exactly. Just like we fund everything else
                        As for your original post are you talking about the acme commercial? That's the current one around here aimed at kids.
                        There was another one today for epipen that didn't mentioned kids, but the whole commercial just showed kids.
                        The only redeeming factor with those, or any pharmaceutical commercial is with listing the side effects. But I have a feeling most people don't pay attention to them.
                        Glad you understand the message Thom.

                        I believe it was an acme commercial, but can't swear 100%.

                        I've not seen any commercials for an epipen,but I am pretty sure I have a pair inmy emergency bag.
                        That is what they have used in the past when I had extreme allergic reactions to meds.
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                        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                          I can't help but laugh guys!

                          Surely you meant acne rather than the acme company always found in Looney Tunes cartoons targeting children? :p

                          Terra



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                          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                            Originally Posted by KimW View Post

                            Glad you understand the message Thom.

                            I believe it was an acme commercial, but can't swear 100%.

                            I've not seen any commercials for an epipen,but I am pretty sure I have a pair inmy emergency bag.
                            That is what they have used in the past when I had extreme allergic reactions to meds.
                            I used to have some epipens myself, in fact one saved my fathers life once. I just thought the commercial was interesting because all it showed where kids playing while talking about the pen for allergies. No adults in the commercial at all. Also today was the first time I saw it.
                            The one for acne has been running up here for a few weeks. It shows kids trying magnets, seaweed, a vacuum, and other assorted silliness to cure their acne and then says their product is what really works.
                            Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                            I can't help but laugh guys!

                            Surely you meant acne rather than the acme company always found in Looney Tunes cartoons targeting children? :p

                            Terra



                            A subtle failed attempt at humor on my part, or a Freudian slip. Which ever works
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                • Profile picture of the author PeterLarson
                  Many legal drugs and illegal drugs hurt the human body and do not aid in its healing.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by PeterLarson View Post

                    Many legal drugs and illegal drugs hurt the human body and do not aid in its healing.
                    And you must be taking some of them because this thread died a death almost 3 months ago. You were the second last poster then, so why wait all that time to reply to the last poster in the thread? I've heard of taking time to make a considered response but . . .
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    As for hospitals, doctors, and insurance? YIKES! I now pay $95 a ******MONTH****** for a subscription service for my warfarin tests!

    The HOSPITALS want ~$40 a month for a monthly test that is within range. If it is outside of range, it may be ~$40 a DAY!!!!!!! That requires me to go to a hospital or some special testing centers.

    I bought my OWN system for $2000! It allowed me to test MYSELF for about $7 a test. After a couple years, they decided to make it a PAPERWEIGHT! That is ILLEGAL on so many levels! Anyway, the laws make replacing it DIFFICULT! You have to find a willing company selling all stuff, and a willing doctor to write you a PRESCRIPTION! If ANYTHING goes wrong, the cycle starts FROM SCRATCH!

    So NOW, I am RENTING a machine and must test WEEKLY! They charge ME(AFTER INSURANCE) about $95/month.

    BTW I had a doctor for 2 years, and another doctor almost FORCED me to go with him. I saw him because MY DOCTOR MESSED UP ON A PRESCRIPTION THAT COULD KILL ME! I kept that guy for 4 years out of dumb luck. He dropped me because I wasn't local. I had another doctor for about a year. HE dropped me for missing an appointment because I had a life to live. I had another doctor that said they want to drop me. HEY, I DIDN'T ASK FOR THIS! An average of like $500+ every year(The insurance may pay more) for maybe 2 hours work you can mostly phone in, or do via email seems like a GREAT deal to me!

    I would have been nearly dead by now if I didn't EXPECT all the incompetence, and take measures to ride it out.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Terra,
    well you know I had to go along with Thom!
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      Terra,
      well you know I had to go along with Thom!
      Is your middle name Jerry? :p

      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Holy Crap. That's scary.

    If you ever wondered where I got my extremely strong opinions on the subject - I was fed an experimental drug for my asthma in my teens. It was HORRIBLE. I almost flunked out of high school because I couldn't think straight - had NO energy, sick in many different ways from the asthma. At one point I was so sick I started taking aspirin with it..........and ended up in the hospital comatose for 4 days from it. I took a couple of IQ tests (required now and then) when I was in school - and I scored lower taking that damned drug than I did when I took one while on my own drug of choice: LSD. I'm glad to see it's no longer on the market - but bet all that happened is they changed the name so nobody would realize they were feeding their kids stuff that was harder to cope with than the wheezing.

    My mother was also in the hospital with a mild coronary when they gave her some experimental drug for it - and her heart exploded!

    And never.........did they ever say.............."experimental" -- the word always used was "new".

    I hate those *******s with a passion you will probably never be able to relate to.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Holy Crap. That's scary.

      If you ever wondered where I got my extremely strong opinions on the subject - I was fed an experimental drug for my asthma in my teens. It was HORRIBLE. I almost flunked out of high school because I couldn't think straight - had NO energy, sick in many different ways from the asthma. At one point I was so sick I started taking aspirin with it..........and ended up in the hospital comatose for 4 days from it. I took a couple of IQ tests (required now and then) when I was in school - and I scored lower taking that damned drug than I did when I took one while on my own drug of choice: LSD. I'm glad to see it's no longer on the market - but bet all that happened is they changed the name so nobody would realize they were feeding their kids stuff that was harder to cope with than the wheezing.

      My mother was also in the hospital with a mild coronary when they gave her some experimental drug for it - and her heart exploded!

      And never.........did they ever say.............."experimental" -- the word always used was "new".

      I hate those *******s with a passion you will probably never be able to relate to.
      Wow, horrible.

      I can't say I had any experience even close to yours. The closest was watching my niece wither away to nothing from chemo cocktails for colon cancer.

      As is typical these days, when my oldest son (now 25) was 7 or 8, his teacher wanted us to put him on Ritalin. We said there's no need. He's not ADHD. We told her she needed to do a better job. She didn't like that but tough.

      Like I said, I do understand where you are coming from. But keep in mind that people have tragic experiences with cars, yet still drive. With fire, yet still cook. With alcohol yet still drink. When PRESCRIBED and USED properly, there are some very good and proven drugs on the market. Although I'd stay away from "new" drugs myself.

      These days there are way too many negative things to focus on. If we choose to let them all get under our skin, it would drive us mad. I'm not talking about awareness or looking for solutions. I'm talking about how we let them affect us. We can find solutions to any issue and make people aware without the absolute negativity that follows many issues today. That's just fodder for the news cycle.

      Besides - "hatred" is as toxic as any drug you can take...
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        Wow, horrible.

        I can't say I had any experience even close to yours. The closest was watching my niece wither away to nothing from chemo cocktails for colon cancer.

        As is typical these days, when my oldest son (now 25) was 7 or 8, his teacher wanted us to put him on Ritalin. We said there's no need. He's not ADHD. We told her she needed to do a better job. She didn't like that but tough.

        Like I said, I do understand where you are coming from. But keep in mind that people have tragic experiences with cars, yet still drive. With fire, yet still cook. With alcohol yet still drink. When PRESCRIBED and USED properly, there are some very good and proven drugs on the market. Although I'd stay away from "new" drugs myself.

        These days there are way too many negative things to focus on. If we choose to let them all get under our skin, it would drive us mad. I'm not talking about awareness or looking for solutions. I'm talking about how we let them affect us. We can find solutions to any issue and make people aware without the absolute negativity that follows many issues today. That's just fodder for the news cycle.

        Besides - "hatred" is as toxic as any drug you can take...
        Oh pish posh. I was driven way past nuts already. :rolleyes:
        Nothing eats me up anymore. I can shut off the fumes like sticking a match in water. When the going gets tough -- I go hunt agates in the wild where there's not even cell reception. Tonight while my roomie was drinking beer and taking her pharms so she'd be able to sleep - I was kicked back watching an occasional meteorite streak through the milky way belt in a dark clear sky. Some stuff sucks - but life is generally amazing when you let it be.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well, I saw a person recently talk about how he did his job for MONEY, and he was called on it! The reporter said "WHY did he have to say THAT"?

    All he does is create cute anime and license it.

    Well, the drug companies ALSO do it for the money, but don't care AT ALL! I HATE it. They are like one of the cooks on one of the chopped(IIRC) episodes......

    They always go off half cocked. I guess that is expected. Well, on ONE episode, the crew did an ESPECIALLY stupid thing. They provided an odd ingredient that was HIGHLY TOXIC! I mean DEADLY!

    Realizing the mistake, the contestants were told how poisonous this was. The seeds must all be removed. All went about the painstaking task of removing the seeds. OK, OK, All *****BUT ONE*****! OH, she must have thought she was SO smart! BLEND IT, COOK IT, and THEN strain out the seeds! They had to ask her TWICE before she stopped!!!!!!!

    SEEDS are NEVER poison! When they say seeds are poisonous, they mean a SUBSTANCE IN the seeds is poison. BLENDING, HEATING, etc... would RELEASE the poison. SURE she could strain out the seeds, but the liquid would ALREADY be POISON!

    THAT is the lack of competence and care that the average drug company has!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author ClaraBr
    Banned
    It certainly is a largely-spread selling strategy, using the image of innocent kids to make their parents buy them stuff they don't need. Yeah, too bad.
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  • Profile picture of the author PeterLarson
    Originally Posted by KimW View Post

    It is bad enough when the commercials are telling you to have your doctor prescribe you something that has more deadly side effects than benefits,but I just saw a commercial aimed at kids to tell their their parents to have the doctor prescribe something for them.

    When are people going to become outraged enough to put a stop to this? :rolleyes:
    It has been done with cigarettes already (Camel cig. commercials aimed at kids) so it could be done again.
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    • Profile picture of the author KimW
      Originally Posted by PeterLarson View Post

      It has been done with cigarettes already (Camel cig. commercials aimed at kids) so it could be done again.
      While I don't think it is quite the same,I understand what you are saying.
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  • Profile picture of the author goindeep
    My theory is I keep myself and my family as healthy as possible so that we don't ever need to see a doctor or use meds.

    I believe in good food, exercise, water, stress free and happiness keeps the doctor away.

    If I ever get cancer or anyone in my immediate family does, I wont stand for chemo or radiation therapy. Its just stupid, expensive and treats the patient like a worthless piece of meat when its been proven over and over and over again that there are so many other methods that can reverse and stop cancer.

    My Father in Law dies of cancer. He was in a pretty bad shape when we went to see him. I researched online and ended up buying some stiff called Oxy E. We restricted his diet to mainly fruits and vegetables, along with some other natural healing techniques and he began to improve. Then those f***ing piece of worthless scum the German Zoll (Customs) stopped allowing his Oxy E into the country and he started going back down hill again and eventually died.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by goindeep View Post

      My Father in Law dies of cancer. He was in a pretty bad shape when we went to see him. I researched online and ended up buying some stiff called Oxy E. We restricted his diet to mainly fruits and vegetables, along with some other natural healing techniques and he began to improve. Then those f***ing piece of worthless scum the German Zoll (Customs) stopped allowing his Oxy E into the country and he started going back down hill again and eventually died.
      Well, that kind of thing is happening ALL OVER! And I know that australia IS one of the MANY countries affected! The US is ALSO!

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by goindeep View Post

      My theory is I keep myself and my family as healthy as possible so that we don't ever need to see a doctor or use meds.

      I believe in good food, exercise, water, stress free and happiness keeps the doctor away.

      If I ever get cancer or anyone in my immediate family does, I wont stand for chemo or radiation therapy. Its just stupid, expensive and treats the patient like a worthless piece of meat when its been proven over and over and over again that there are so many other methods that can reverse and stop cancer.

      My Father in Law dies of cancer. He was in a pretty bad shape when we went to see him. I researched online and ended up buying some stiff called Oxy E. We restricted his diet to mainly fruits and vegetables, along with some other natural healing techniques and he began to improve. Then those f***ing piece of worthless scum the German Zoll (Customs) stopped allowing his Oxy E into the country and he started going back down hill again and eventually died.
      Welcome to the US version of health care:

      Court rules Amish girl to be forcefully poisoned with chemotherapy; Akron Children's Hospital now practicing predatory medicine

      Most Americans have not read their new health car act..........I did. This is how all illnesses will be treated. You get sick - go to a doctor. The doctor has a list of treatments he is allowed to give you. He prescribes one. You are bound by law to use it. No arguing, no refusing. What's even more fun? The approved treatments will be decided by the IRS.

      Gee - what could possibly go wrong?
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Good old "naturalnews" again....with a headline meant to cause angst and anger. I despise that website for it's slanted, tabloid type articles.

        Cancer-Stricken Amish Girl Sarah Hershberger to Restart Chemo In Spite Of Parents' Wishes, Says Appeals Court

        ... after two rounds of the treatments, she begged her parents to stop because it was making her too sick.
        I can't imagine how you allow a 10 yr old child to dictate the treatment for a life threatening disease. The family didn't object to chemo, it seems, until the child wanted to quit. I understand they want a gentler treatment - but this is not a gentle disease.

        I don't know what I think about the state stepping in. If the child is not treated and she dies - are the parents at fault. If she is treated and does not go into remission - is the state at fault? Above my pay grade to decide that.

        Acute lymphoblastic leukemia invades the blood and can spread throughout the body to other organs, such as the liver, spleen, and lymph nodes. ... It is an acute type of leukemia, which means it can progress quickly. Without treatment, it can be fatal within a few months.
        http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk....-for-evidence/
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        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Good old "naturalnews" again....with a headline meant to cause angst and anger. I despise that website for it's slanted, tabloid type articles.

          Cancer-Stricken Amish Girl Sarah Hershberger to Restart Chemo In Spite Of Parents' Wishes, Says Appeals Court

          I can't imagine how you allow a 10 yr old child to dictate the treatment for a life threatening disease. The family didn't object to chemo, it seems, until the child wanted to quit. I understand they want a gentler treatment - but this is not a gentle disease.

          I don't know what I think about the state stepping in. If the child is not treated and she dies - are the parents at fault. If she is treated and does not go into remission - is the state at fault? Above my pay grade to decide that.



          Miracle cancer cures? Ask for evidence - Cancer Research UK - Science Update blog
          If she is forced treatments and dies is it the hospitals fault?
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Most Americans have not read their new health car act..........I did. This is how all illnesses will be treated. You get sick - go to a doctor. The doctor has a list of treatments he is allowed to give you. He prescribes one. You are bound by law to use it. No arguing, no refusing. What's even more fun? The approved treatments will be decided by the IRS.
        According to the act I read, the treatments are to be decided by a panel which, as I recall, is half people the president picks and half by a person he picks. With the US NOW, it is determined by a combination of the market, insurance company(of which there were many), doctor, and patient.

        So the doctor and patient could discuss it. The patient could be paid by the insurance company, or switch to one covering it, and could decide to pay more, etc... With the NEW "plan", the market, doctor, patient. and even insurance company are replaced by ONE panel for the COUNTRY. If the insurance company fails to comply, they are out of business within 10 years.

        OH YEAH, it was also ******ILLEGAL****** for ANY medical professional to tell ANYONE such as the IRS, or even another medical professional, ANY such thing! OK, OK! MAYBE some don't believe me. Let's hear from the "U.S. Department of Health & Human Services"

        Health Information Privacy

        The Privacy Rule

        The HIPAA Privacy Rule establishes national standards to protect individuals' medical records and other personal health information and applies to health plans, health care clearinghouses, and those health care providers that conduct certain health care transactions electronically. The Rule requires appropriate safeguards to protect the privacy of personal health information, and sets limits and conditions on the uses and disclosures that may be made of such information without patient authorization. The Rule also gives patients rights over their health information, including rights to examine and obtain a copy of their health records, and to request corrections.

        The Privacy Rule is located at 45 CFR Part 160 and Subparts A and E of Part 164.
        One famous customer of mine went to a LOT of trouble to not even let their EMPLOYEES know if a person had an abnormal amount of IRON in their blood! ******IRON******! That isn't ANY disease or of ANY consequence, but that WAS one of the many things they SPECIFICALLY specified! I was shocked, but the director was ADAMANT! OH YEAH, they DID test for HPV, CJD, HIV, HSV, etc... Yet it seemed that they were NO more secret than IRON! ALL were protected!

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    BTW the constitution FORBIDS forcing treatment of any such nature on the Amish! t violates the first amendment! "Congress shall make NO law respecting or establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". They are given special considerations much as indians are.

    I'm surprised the amish even took her to a hospital. Part of their RELIGION is the avoidance of ANY 20th or 21st century technology. THAT is why they don't drive cars.

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      If she is forced treatments and dies is it the hospitals fault?
      It's the cancer that will kill her - not the nasty treatments. If the treatment doesn't work in her case, it doesn't work. Refusing the treatment guarantees it won't work.

      For this particular form of cancer in children, chemo has the best remission and cure rate. It's documented, studied, proven to be the most effective. Medical papers say if the chemo works that will be obvious after 2-3 months of treatment. If it's not working I wouldn't blame the parents for stopping it then.

      Two treatments is not enough to know if the chemo will beat the cancer. If chemo is the only treatment lifeline where there are statistics showing it often works....wouldn't you take that lifeline for your child?

      It's one of the stories where you can see pros and cons on both sides.
      It seems like a compromise could be reached by parents and the courts.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        It's the cancer that will kill her - not the nasty treatments. If the treatment doesn't work in her case, it doesn't work. Refusing the treatment guarantees it won't work.

        For this particular form of cancer in children, chemo has the best remission and cure rate. It's documented, studied, proven to be the most effective. Medical papers say if the chemo works that will be obvious after 2-3 months of treatment. If it's not working I wouldn't blame the parents for stopping it then.

        Two treatments is not enough to know if the chemo will beat the cancer. If chemo is the only treatment lifeline where there are statistics showing it often works....wouldn't you take that lifeline for your child?

        It's one of the stories where you can see pros and cons on both sides.
        It seems like a compromise could be reached by parents and the courts.
        Actually she could die from the treatments. She could also develope heart, kidney, or liver problems from the chemo that could kill her. I agree that ten is kind of young for her to make her own decisions, but having a life threatening disease can make you grow up pretty quick. Religion also plays into this. Maybe because of their beliefs the girl and her parents believe in an afterlife and they all, including the girl, believe she will be happier there.
        Is it our place or the hospitals place to deny them the right of their faith?
        In the end this is about the girl and her family. Weather we agree with their decision or not they should be the ones who make it.
        Who would you want making life or death decisions about your children when they where young? You or someone who doesn't know them other then by their chart.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Sorry you don't like Natural news, Kay. Whenever I've researched their reports, they've turned out to be correct, even if a little sensationalized. Shoot the messenger. It's not the first time I've seen parents forced to allow a treatment for their children that they don't want anything to do with. When that force includes the denial of use of the treatment they WANT - that's criminal.

    Steve -- ever been to the ACA websites and read the fine print about what kind of "information share" you are allowing by signing up to the program? Hmmm? We aren't dealing now with traditional health care and that info will be going back and forth between the IRS and anyone else they want to share it with.....including law enforcement......whatever the hell they think they need it for. You aren't dealing with the constitution and law now. You're dealing with an illegal system being crammed down our throats despite the fact they had to rewrite a bunch of stuff and repurpose statements of intent until they found an angle that the supreme court would even accept it. It's still an illegal system according to our constitution. We aren't under rule of law anymore. We're just under rule.
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    Sal
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      This story is a bit different, though. They weren't against the chemo initially - they decided against continuing it after the first two treatments made the child sick (expected) and she wanted to stop.

      The first treatments are the hardest - and it's terrible to see your child suffer from the side effects. However, you don't let a 10 yr old dictate cancer treatment and that seems to be the case here. That's the sticking point for me.

      That said, if this is what the parents want I'm not sure courts should interfere. On the other hand, if this child dies due to lack of treatment, I wouldn't defend the parents if they are held responsible.
      Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    For this particular form of cancer in children, chemo has the best remission and cure rate. It's documented, studied, proven to be the most effective. Medical papers say if the chemo works that will be obvious after 2-3 months of treatment. If it's not working I wouldn't blame the parents for stopping it then.
    Do NOT forget that the only "documented" cures are the ones that are approved by the medical industrial complex. That might be the best of the allowed or official treatments - but there may be alternative treatments that are better by vast percentages, and you will never see them included in the official opinion. Do not forget - there are doctors leaving the US to practice in other countries because they are not allowed to use what they know works here in the states.

    If people CHOOSE chemo - that's their right. It is NOT the right of the gov to come in and tell you what medicine you and your family will or will not use. That is called slavery.

    As far as the kid having no idea? Bull. I begged my parents to take me off an asthma drug when I was that age. It was MY body and I knew those meds were bad news because I could FEEL them destroying me. When I got overseas and saw a doctor there, my voice was confirmed by the horror of the doctor over there finding out what they were giving to me. Just because someone is a kid, doesn't mean they automatically are stupid about what is going on in their own body.
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    Sal
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