If You Aren't Sure Walmart Needs to Pay Higher Wages, This Photo May Erase All Doubt:

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Daily Kos: If You Aren't Sure Walmart Needs to Pay Higher Wages, This Photo May Erase All Doubt
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Wow.

    Just... wow.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Propaganda put out by unions trying to organize WM workers - saw it on MSNBC two days ago - only a matter of time before we see it elsewhere.

      Where I work part-time - we've ALWAYS had donation requests before holidays. IN addition - we have a couple fundraisers a year that provide an emergency fund for employees who have financial problems.

      Why is it a shock that people would help out co-workers? Where is the "bad" in that? There are WM workers who are trying to support a full family - either because they are single with several children or because other adults in the household aren't working.

      It angers me to see a donation box used as "proof" of a "bad business". Just so you know - there are many businesses that will not allow any donation or fund raising among employees on the property.

      Every large business has employees that work at minimum wage level - it may be the cleaning crew or the stocking crew. Even in a business where front line employees earn $25-35 an hour- there are minimum wage workers cleaning the casinos - the hotel room, serving at the buffet line.

      For a three-person household (two parents and a child, for instance), the 2013 federal poverty level is $19,530.
      So - 2 parents each working 25 hrs a week at a minimum wage job meets the 19,530 standard. Now - if those parents work 40 hrs a week - whether getting a full time job or a second part time job at minimum wage....they earn $30k. THAT is what most people have done over the years.

      Shouldn't we also count the thousands of dollars per year many of these low end workers are getting in food stamps, ADC, Medicaid and housing subsidies?

      WM is not a great employer that is benevolent to employees - but it's an employer with stable jobs that provides a LOT of jobs to people who can't get hired in other businesses. If people are so unhappy with the pay at WM - why aren't they looking for other work? Because they can't find anyone who will pay them more....is that WM's fault? In many cases, they can't find anyone who will hired them at all due to lack of experience or education.

      WM is a target because it's a huge company and many people are willing to turn against a business with rich owners.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Shouldn't we also count the thousands of dollars per year many of these low end workers are getting in food stamps, ADC, Medicaid and housing subsidies?
        Yes, we should count it. We should count it as "the Walmart benefit package" paid for by the taxpayers. Yes, WM pays low wages to low skilled employees who may not have employment otherwise, but they are still little more than people who are dependent on welfare for enough food to eat and medical and housing assistance due to their low paying jobs.

        So while hiring employees that can never get out from the welfare system on the taxpayers dollar, they continue to exploit tax loopholes so it's not their dollars that are being used to subsidize their employees, but everyone else's dollars.

        Wal-Mart

        The Raw Story | Wal-Mart pays itself rent, gets large tax breaks

        Personally, I would find it demeaning to get my Thanksgiving dinner from a donation bin at the company that I worked for and would rather just not eat anything on Thanksgiving.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle

          Damn near every business that owns real estate does this. This is nothing new, evil or otherwise, and it certainly isn't exclusive to WalMart.

          If I were a business owner and my accountant didn't suggest such a structure, I'd find another accountant.
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

            Damn near every business that owns real estate does this. This is nothing new, evil or otherwise, and it certainly isn't exclusive to WalMart.

            If I were a business owner and my accountant didn't suggest such a structure, I'd find another accountant.

            Nothing to say about the taxpayers picking up the slack for Walmarts' greediness?
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

              Nothing to say about the taxpayers picking up the slack for Walmarts' greediness?
              If you're referring to the "tax loophole," it's not greed. It's effective use of the tax code and nearly ever real estate-owning company does the same. It's ridiculous to blame the tax payer for using the tax code in a legal manner.

              If you're referring to WalMart in general, I don't see profit as greed. I see it as profit, plain and simple. WalMart offers wages, which are deemed legal by Federal and State standards, and employees accept those wages. An employee can make better wages by increasing skills and finding higher paying opportunities.

              An individual's wage is more greatly defined by that individual's choices than an employer's wage scale. Every worker has the opportunity of higher wages, but it's up to the individual to develop skill sets that add greater value to the marketplace, which translates to higher wages.

              Why is it always, "WalMart offers slave wages," and not, "Take personal responsibility and develop yourself?"
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                If you're referring to the "tax loophole," it's not greed. It's effective use of the tax code and nearly ever real estate-owning company does the same. It's ridiculous to blame the tax payer for using the tax code in a legal manner.

                If you're referring to WalMart in general, I don't see profit as greed. I see it as profit, plain and simple. WalMart offers wages, which are deemed legal by Federal and State standards, and employees accept those wages. An employee can make better wages by increasing skills and finding higher paying opportunities.

                An individual's wage is more greatly defined by that individual's choices than an employer's wage scale. Every worker has the opportunity of higher wages, but it's up to the individual to develop skill sets that add greater value to the marketplace, which translates to higher wages.

                Why is it always, "WalMart offers slave wages," and not, "Take personal responsibility and develop yourself?"

                I don't see profit as greed either. I love profits!


                So to be clear, you don't mind taxpayers picking up the slack for Walmart and others paying a shi**y wage even if they can afford to pay a better one right?
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                If you're referring to the "tax loophole," it's not greed. It's effective use of the tax code and nearly ever real estate-owning company does the same. It's ridiculous to blame the tax payer for using the tax code in a legal manner.
                So you don't mind subsidizing WM employees with your tax dollars. That's very generous of you.
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                • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  So you don't mind subsidizing WM employees with your tax dollars. That's very generous of you.
                  Why not? You do that when you eat at McDonalds. Or when you buy your Iphone. Or when you get your prescriptions filled. When you buy those groceries made by those big processed food companies.

                  Sorry, but there's no way to eliminate this from your life.
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                  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                    Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                    Why not? You do that when you eat at McDonalds. Or when you buy your Iphone. Or when you get your prescriptions filled. When you buy those groceries made by those big processed food companies.

                    Sorry, but there's no way to eliminate this from your life.
                    Trading your money for a product that you obviously want to buy is nowhere close to having your tax dollars pay for WM's employees food, shelter and medical care, of which you get nothing in return.

                    I don't eat at McDonals, don't have an iPhone, and I won't discuss where I get my prescriptions. I do however, buy food, but I get something in return for my money.
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                    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                      Trading your money for a product that you obviously want to buy is nowhere close to having your tax dollars pay for WM's employees food, shelter and medical care, of which you get nothing in return.

                      I don't eat at McDonals, don't have an iPhone, and I won't discuss where I get my prescriptions. I do however, buy food, but I get something in return for my money.
                      Understood. But I wasn't talking about trading dollars for a product. I was talking about companies other than WM, which MANY people use daily, does some form of subsidizing in some way.

                      The local supermarket here in my town has a policy of hiring only part timers (except management positions) so it does not have to pay benefits or better wages. I'll bet yours does too. And because of this, well, even these employees are being subsidized in some way.

                      In fact, the old hardware store - that went out of business after Home Depot opened - had the very same practice. And incidentally, HD paid their people a better wage than this mom and pop business did - and provided more jobs than the old hardware store.

                      But WM sucks. I still don't shop there. Largely because the management at this particular location sucks and the store reflects it.
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                      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                        Understood. But I wasn't talking about trading dollars for a product. I was talking about companies other than WM, which MANY people use daily, does some form of subsidizing in some way.
                        Yes, they do. But my point is that these huge companies go to great lengths and hire very smart attorneys to relieve them of paying taxes to the federal and state governments ... so I rather resent my tax dollars (rather than theirs) going to subsidize their employees. If they paid their fair share of taxes like good corporate citizens, it would irk me less. I do buy food, but don't consider that subsidizing. That's buying a product I need, and I don't even shop at Walmart. Simply a matter of I don't like to buy crappy products.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                          Yes, they do. But my point is that these huge companies go to great lengths and hire very smart attorneys to relieve them of paying taxes to the federal and state governments ... so I rather resent my tax dollars (rather than theirs) going to subsidize their employees. If they paid their fair share of taxes like good corporate citizens, it would irk me less. I do buy food, but don't consider that subsidizing. That's buying a product I need, and I don't even shop at Walmart. Simply a matter of I don't like to buy crappy products.
                          It sounds like your issue isn't with WalMart. It's with the government. WalMart uses its attorneys to effectively and efficiently navigate the legal system and tax code in a legal manner. Is a corporation supposed to pay more taxes than legally mandated?

                          If WalMart, or anyone else for that matter, is cheating the system, they should be hit with the full force of the law. Until then, it's just good business.
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                          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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                            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                            It sounds like your issue isn't with WalMart. It's with the government. WalMart uses its attorney to effectively and efficiently navigate the legal system and tax code in a legal manner. Is a corporation supposed to pay more taxes than legally mandated?

                            If WalMart, or anyone else for that matter, is cheating the system, they should be hit with the full force of the law. Until then, it's just good business.
                            Not exactly at the government. What Walmart does to avoid taxes is more than just a legal loophole. It's abuse of the tax code and as I discussed in this post #100 http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post8718633, states are investigating and taking action to close the loopholes that Walmart specifically exploits to cheat them out of state taxes that they should be getting from Walmart. That would help a great deal to fund subsidizing employees desperate enough that feel Walmart is a viable employment choice.

                            Personally, I'd like to see enough unskilled labor jobs available that employees who don't want to rummage around donation bins to feed their families for Thanksgiving, could leave Walmart in mass and let the corporate execs stock the shelves. :p
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                            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                              Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                              Not exactly at the government. What Walmart does to avoid taxes is more than just a legal loophole. It's abuse of the tax code and as I discussed in this post #100 http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post8718633, states are investigating and taking action to close the loopholes that Walmart specifically exploits to cheat them out of state taxes that they should be getting from Walmart. That would help a great deal to fund subsidizing employees desperate enough that feel Walmart is a viable employment choice.

                              Personally, I'd like to see enough unskilled labor jobs available that employees who don't want to rummage around donation bins to feed their families for Thanksgiving, could leave Walmart in mass and let the corporate execs stock the shelves. :p
                              I guess I just have issue with the framing of the subject. I don't get how it's a scam or abuse to use the tax code as written. In all seriousness, ~95% of the businesses I work with utilize the same corporate structure to reduce their tax liability.

                              I work with small businesses. Many owners utilize this tax savings as their personal income and it's not a massive amount of money. Closing this "loophole" will hurt small businesses as we'll now see their already-minuscule margins shrink. It won't be good for their employees or prices.

                              I can see the economic benefit at the top of the spectrum, but, WalMart and their ilk can afford it. Mom and Pop might not.

                              This may not have the effect you want.
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  I don't see profit as greed either. I love profits!


                  So to be clear, you don't mind taxpayers picking up the slack for Walmart and others paying a shi**y wage even if they can afford to pay a better one right?
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  So you don't mind subsidizing WM employees with your tax dollars. That's very generous of you.

                  Maybe if the employees developed better skills they wouldn't need government assistance or need to work for WalMart. It goes both ways, doesn't it?

                  To answer your questions directly, I do mind, but I put the blame on the employee, not the business. It's not an employer's fault the employee needs government assistance.

                  WalMart didn't force the employee to have a baby at sixteen or to drop out of high school. WalMart didn't coax the employee to sneak out of math class and smoke pot in the parking lot. WalMart doesn't force the employee to hang out with his buddies rather than take college classes at night.

                  What did WalMart and other companies offering "sh*tty" wages do? They offered employment.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    The estimates of what taxpayers kick in for Walmart workers comes from Wisconsin and is based on school free meals program - with numbers then estimated from that.

                    What isn't often mentioned is that Walmart is the largest employer in Wisconsin.

                    Not surprising the largest employer might have the biggest number of low end jobs or part time jobs - and thus the highest number of employees requesting public assistance.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Horny Devil
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                      Who gives a hoot about Walmart and it's employment/wage policies. There's nothing any of us can do about it even if we wanted to, and this thread will have about as much impact as a dove feather landing on an elephants backside. Does anyone really care what another member thinks about it?

                      It amazes me how some of these threads drag on. Usually two groups of mindsets slugging it out remorselessly with quick fire retorts, each hell-bent on putting across their viewpoint, usually from a perceived high ground. What a waste of time.

                      I much prefer the laughter and satire threads, or any thread with a real injection of humour. It's time better spent and at least you go to bed with a smile on your face.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                        Originally Posted by Horny Devil View Post

                        Who gives a hoot about Walmart and it's employment/wage policies. There's nothing any of us can do about it even if we wanted to, and this thread will have about as much impact as a dove feather landing on an elephants backside. Does anyone really care what another member thinks about it?

                        It amazes me how some of these threads drag on. Usually two groups of mindsets slugging it out remorselessly with quick fire retorts, each hell-bent on putting across their viewpoint, usually from a perceived high ground. What a waste of time.

                        I much prefer the laughter and satire threads, or any thread with a real injection of humour. It's time better spent and at least you go to bed with a smile on your face.
                        Good to know.
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                      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                        Originally Posted by Horny Devil View Post

                        Who gives a hoot about Walmart and it's employment/wage policies. There's nothing any of us can do about it even if we wanted to, and this thread will have about as much impact as a dove feather landing on an elephants backside. Does anyone really care what another member thinks about it?

                        It amazes me how some of these threads drag on. Usually two groups of mindsets slugging it out remorselessly with quick fire retorts, each hell-bent on putting across their viewpoint, usually from a perceived high ground. What a waste of time.

                        I much prefer the laughter and satire threads, or any thread with a real injection of humour. It's time better spent and at least you go to bed with a smile on your face.
                        Perhaps across the pond you would be correct - but not here in the USA.

                        States can set minimum wages and the feds can also set a national minimum wage as they have done so in the past - which needs to be updated IMHO.
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      The estimates of what taxpayers kick in for Walmart workers comes from Wisconsin and is based on school free meals program - with numbers then estimated from that.

                      What isn't often mentioned is that Walmart is the largest employer in Wisconsin.

                      Not surprising the largest employer might have the biggest number of low end jobs or part time jobs - and thus the highest number of employees requesting public assistance.
                      Wal-Mart Real Estate Tax Scam Now Illegal

                      By Phil Neuenfeldt and Jack Norman

                      Governor Doyle's signature makes it law: The specific real estate gimmick Wal-Mart (and others?) have been using to avoid the Wisconsin corporate income tax is now illegal.

                      The Legislature closed the tax scam as part of the Budget Adjustment Bill and Governor Doyle signed it into law on May 16. Doyle wrote that the new law "closes an unacceptable tax loophole used by multinational corporations to shift profits out of the state to avoid paying Wisconsin taxes." This shuts down the use of an intricate tax technique that avoids taxes by having one branch of a company pay rent to another, a paperwork maneuver which results in major tax breaks.

                      It's a relatively small fix estimated to bring in about $15 million during this biennium, but an important first step in needed corporate tax reform. The Wisconsin State AFL-CIO and the Institute for Wisconsin's Future and other coalition allies have pushed to close this loophole. It follows an aggressive campaign to keep the issue of corporate tax avoidance very visible to lawmakers and the public.

                      There had been some doubt about whether Gov. Doyle would make changes in the legislation sent him because it differed from the proposal Doyle himself had made. The Legislature's version went beyond closing the "captive Real Estate Investment Trust" gimmick which Wal-Mart uses. It also includes restrictions on using deductions for interest-not just rent-to avoid paying taxes, and also extends beyond traditional corporations to include individuals, S-corporations and insurers.

                      Gov. Doyle noted that there had been some concerns from the business sector about whether the law would prohibit certain "legitimate intra-company loans." Doyle said he will make sure that the law is interpreted so as not to interfere with these legitimate transactions.

                      Still undecided is the fate of Wal-Mart's past use of this tax loophole. The Department of Revenue is seeking back taxes on almost $105 million in Wal-Mart profits from 1997 through 1999 and the case is before the state's Tax Appeal Commission.

                      Corporate tax loopholes force working families and smaller businesses to pay much more than their fair share in taxes to make up the difference. The state needs to take a closer look at Wisconsin's outdated tax structure which is being gamed by aggressive corporate tax avoidance strategies.
                      - Phil Neuenfeldt is Secretary-Treasurer of the Wisconsin State AFL-CIO and Jack Norman is Research Director for the Institute for Wisconsin's Future.

                      More on REIT tax loophole

                      Closing State Corporate Tax Loopholes: Combined Reporting | Institute for Local Self-Reliance

                      Wal-Mart Caught Scamming Billions from State Taxpayers

                      If you bought a house and then rented it
                      back to yourself to save on taxes, you'd get
                      locked up for tax evasion. But not Wal-Mart.
                      Wal-Mart set up a fake company based
                      in Delaware to own hundreds of its stores.
                      Why would the world's largest retailer
                      go to all that trouble?

                      The scam allows Wal-Mart to avoid
                      hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes every
                      year that should be going to states.
                      But this fake-company loophole is just
                      the tip of the Wal-Mart tax dodge iceberg.
                      Change to Win estimates that Wal-Mart may
                      have scammed state taxpayers for more than
                      $2.3 billion dollars between 1999 and 2005.

                      Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott was paid more than
                      $18 million in 2005. That's millions more
                      than Change to Win estimates Wal-Mart paid
                      in state income taxes in states like Alabama,
                      Connecticut, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky,Maryland,
                      Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New Mexico,
                      Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Virginia, West Virginia,
                      or Wisconsin.

                      States Fight Back

                      Last year,North Carolina collected $30.2 million in back taxes that Wal-Mart
                      avoided using the loophole.

                      In February this year, Connecticut Attorney General, Richard Blumenthal,
                      launched an investigation into Wal-Mart's tax scam.

                      On March 5th, the Maryland Comptroller, Peter Franchot, said his office would
                      audit Wal-Mart and others to "level the playing field for all Maryland businesses."

                      On April 1st, the New York legislature and Governor Spitzer eliminated several
                      tax loopholes including the Wal-Mart loophole.

                      http://www.brooklynforsensiblegrowth...s-in-taxes.pdf
                      HOW MUCH IS WALMART TAKING YOUR STATE FOR?

                      State Tax Shortfall (1999-2005)
                      Arkansas $48.9 million
                      Connecticut $21.5 million
                      Florida $119 million
                      Indiana $57.5 million
                      Iowa $61.8 million
                      Kentucky $65.2 million
                      Massachusetts $37.8 million
                      Michigan $17.1 million
                      Missouri $72.7 million
                      New Jersey $31.3 million
                      New Mexico $28.9 million
                      New York $74 million
                      North Carolina $86.5 million
                      Ohio $105.7 million
                      Oklahoma $46.7 million
                      Pennsylvania $123.7 million
                      Rhode Island $7 million
                      Virginia $60.9 million
                      West Virginia $30.8 million
                      Wisconsin $54.4 million
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                    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      The estimates of what taxpayers kick in for Walmart workers comes from Wisconsin and is based on school free meals program - with numbers then estimated from that.
                      Some areas in the US actually have a policy of providing lunch for ALL students! WHY? So nobody feels embarrassed, etc.... So trying to use such a number is just DUMB, any way you slice it!

                      Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                    Maybe if the employees developed better skills they wouldn't need government assistance or need to work for WalMart. It goes both ways, doesn't it?

                    To answer your questions directly, I do mind, but I put the blame on the employee, not the business. It's not an employer's fault the employee needs government assistance.

                    WalMart didn't force the employee to have a baby at sixteen or to drop out of high school. WalMart didn't coax the employee to sneak out of math class and smoke pot in the parking lot. WalMart doesn't force the employee to hang out with his buddies rather than taking college classes at night.

                    What did WalMart and other companies offering "sh*tty" wages do? They offered employment.



                    If I understand you correctly, you're not in favor of subsidizing walmart type employees with taxpayer funds and...

                    ... even if the business is highly profitable and can afford to pay higher wages, they should be not compelled to pay a higher wage.

                    And the icing on the cake is that you believe its the employees' fault not the employers' fault - even if the employer can afford to pay a better wage.

                    Most interesting & thank you for clearing that up for me.

                    If I misinterpreted anything you've said above please let me know.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                      If I understand you correctly, you're not in favor of subsidizing walmart type employees with taxpayer funds and...

                      ... even if the business is highly profitable and can afford to pay higher wages, they should be not compelled to pay a higher wage.

                      And the icing on the cake is that you believe its the employees' fault not the employers' fault - even if the employer can afford to pay a better wage.

                      Most interesting & thank you for clearing that up for me.

                      If I misinterpreted anything you've said above please let me know.
                      Profitability does not create an obligation to overpay for labor. An employee's lack of skill also does not create an obligation to overpay for labor.

                      Would you mind explaining your views? Do you believe an employer should overpay for labor? Do you believe an employer should pay a skilled labor wage for unskilled labor?

                      Fundamentally, I believe we want the same thing. However, we're obviously on differnt sides of the mountain. Before I assume to much, I'd really like your opinion.


                      Added later:

                      I missed this:

                      IMHO, the society (the group) has the right to determine what is a fair wage and impose it on those that conduct business within it.

                      All the studies and historical data strongly suggest slowly but surely raising the minimum wage won't kill off businesses (especially those like Walmart) and will improve the lot of the society in general - in many ways.
                      I don't disagree with this. The problem I have is where union wages are tied to minimum wage, ie. the contract wage is minimum plus $15 per hour and such. I'm fine with creating a low end living wage, but padding union wages when they already meet market demand causes problems. However, that isn't relevant to this discussion.
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                      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                        Profitability does not create an obligation to overpay for labor. An employee's lack of skill also does not create an obligation to overpay for labor.

                        Would you mind explaining your views? Do you believe an employer should overpay for labor?

                        Do you believe an employer should pay a skilled labor wage for unskilled labor?

                        Fundamentally, I believe we want the same thing. However, we're obviously on different sides of the mountain. Before I assume to much, I'd really like your opinion.


                        I'm not sure we want the same thing.

                        I think you'd rather we continue to subsidize the low pay of Walmart type employees verses forcing highly profitable companies to pay a decent, living wage - even if they can - right?

                        I'm not into that attitude.

                        IMHO, its one of a bunch of economic related attitudes that unnecessarily lead to a more precarious, less secure existence for my countrymen.

                        Regarding labor, so-called skilled and unskilled...

                        The skill level of the labor is inconsequential.

                        It is the value that the labor brings to the company.

                        What would Walmart be without its' labor?

                        I know the above question is highly speculative since we're in the mists of the worst economic downturn since the great depression and many folks will take anything they can get in order try to survive.


                        Here's a quote from #16.

                        "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.

                        Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed.

                        Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

                        Abraham Lincoln
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                        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                          I'm not sure we want the same thing.

                          I think you'd rather we continue to subsidize the low pay of Walmart type employees verses forcing highly profitable companies to pay a decent, living wage - even if they can - right?

                          I'm not into that attitude.

                          Regarding labor so-called skilled and unskilled...

                          The skill level of the labor is inconsequential.

                          It is the value that the labor brings to the company.

                          What would Walmart be without its' labor?

                          I know the above question is highly speculative since we're in the mists of the worst economic downturn since the great depression and many folks will take anything they can get in order try to survive.


                          Here's a quote from #16.

                          "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital.

                          Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed.

                          Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

                          Abraham Lincoln
                          Skill level of the labor is completely relevant. In general, WalMart isn't hiring class valedictorians to stock its shelves. Unskilled labor positions aren't meant to be career opportunities.

                          In reference to #16, Lincoln said, "Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed, is more important than any other one thing."

                          He also said, "Upon the subject of education, not presuming to dictate any plan or system respecting it, I can only say that I view it as the most important subject which we as a people can be engaged in."

                          Those who expect even an average income from below average means are biding neither of those thoughts.

                          Again, I don't wish anyone to be a part of the working poor, but I think the solution starts with the individual. This is where we disagree.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Yes, we should count it. We should count it as "the Walmart benefit package" paid for by the taxpayers. Yes, WM pays low wages to low skilled employees who may not have employment otherwise, but they are still little more than people who are dependent on welfare for enough food to eat and medical and housing assistance due to their low paying jobs.
          It isn't because the jobs are low paying jobs. It is because they take jobs that are unskilled. They were NOT meant for CAREERS! As for the taxpayers? Why not? The government wants US to be poor ALSO! WHY? So THEY can be RICH!

          So while hiring employees that can never get out from the welfare system on the taxpayers dollar, they continue to exploit tax loopholes so it's not their dollars that are being used to subsidize their employees, but everyone else's dollars.
          MOST of the "welfare" is TAX BREAKS!

          Personally, I would find it demeaning to get my Thanksgiving dinner from a donation bin at the company that I worked for and would rather just not eat anything on Thanksgiving.
          GOOD! I wish THEY felt that way! I once DELIVERED thanksgiving dinners, TO THE POOR, for FREE! I STOPPED when I saw what they REALLY did! ICSM!

          Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Not anything new about that. I've boycotted walmart for years because of their employee treatment.
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    One of the few times I disagree with you Kay.
    But that's all I'm going to say.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Kim -

      My stance is not meant to say "WM is a great place to work" - because it isn't. Truth is - not everyone gets to be what they want when they grow up. There are people - probably the majority - who do what has to be done for survival most of their adult lives. That's reality.

      The WM workers I personally know in my location - are happy because they have a stable job. The store I go to has people who like their management because they feel management does the best they can to arrange their schedules and work with employees.

      The management of the closest SuperWalmart resisted the self-checkouts until the company forced the addition of self checkout stations 6 months ago. The reason for resistance was that it eliminates some cashier jobs.

      However, as a customer I LOVE the self checkout where I don't have to wait in line. There were no layoffs when they added the new registers here - as over time the manager had reduced cashiers by attrition to get ready to the change he knew was coming.

      That is responsible management - yet because the store is a WalMart they get tarred with the same brush as a WM in NYC.
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  • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
    It's only propaganda because you don't like the message.

    Wage slavery is more insidious than chattel slavery...people have the illusion of freedom, and are easily able to pretend their chains do not exist.

    Our masters tell us to blame immigrants, to blame the poor, to blame other races.

    It is the 1% that are to blame. Do not lose sight of that. Unions make us able to stand up for ourselves, and demand fairer treatment of labor by capital.

    Of course there are well-funded anti-union propaganda campaigns and organizations. It is sound business practice for those motivated by greed rather than solidarity with their fellow man.

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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by RobinInTexas View Post

      It's only propaganda because you don't like the message.

      Wage slavery is more insidious than chattel slavery...people have the illusion of freedom, and are easily able to pretend their chains do not exist.

      Our masters tell us to blame immigrants, to blame the poor, to blame other races.

      It is the 1% that are to blame. Do not lose sight of that. Unions make us able to stand up for ourselves, and demand fairer treatment of labor by capital.

      Of course there are well-funded anti-union propaganda campaigns and organizations. It is sound business practice for those motivated by greed rather than solidarity with their fellow man.


      I found this article interesting...

      Why Wal-Mart can afford to give its workers a 50% raise - The Term Sheet: Fortune's deals blogTerm Sheet
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post


        What I found interesting is that the author tried to float this article with a straight face:

        So without further ado, here's my methodology: Start with Wal-Mart's sales, and then subtract what it has to pay the suppliers that make all the stuff on its shelves. Last quarter that number was $28.7 billion.

        What remains is Wal-Mart's gross profit. Wal-Mart, like all companies, has to split that between three groups -- bondholders, stockholders, and employees. How much should go to each? Bondholders are easy. They've agreed in advance to an interest rate. Last quarter, Wal-Mart's interest payments were $553 million. That leaves us with $28.2 billion, based on last quarter, or $112.8 billion a year.
        So, you're telling me that whatever is left after deducting cost of goods sold from sales is available to pay bondholders, stockholders and employees?

        Where in the calculation does the author plan to pay the electric bill? Real estate taxes? Legal Fees? Interest expense?

        He never accounts for operating expenses.

        One more point of faulty logic: WalMart doesn't have to "split" gross profit (or net profit, really) with employees. The jumps in logic in the article are mindboggling.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I have nothing but contempt for the term "slavery" being used to bolster arguments.

      The REASON people work is for food and shelter. In the real world - self preservation is survival. If you want to live - you need to provide for yourself.

      There is no promise of economic advancement - only the promise of economic opportunity.

      I'm not pro-WM nor against higher wages. Just think the arguments have gotten past the point of reality.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        When I first saw that the average Wal-Mart employee earns a little less than $9 and hour, I nearly screamed.

        Nearly every retailer in the country pays their labor at least $25 an hour, so $9 an hour is evil....wait..what? You mean that $9 an hour is really pretty average for retail labor? Oh...

        Well what about Wal-mart lying to the job applicants, telling them that they will get $25 an hour...and when they get their first paycheck it's just a little above minimum wage, they should pull those kind of....what? you mean the applicants know how much the job pays...and want it anyway?

        Well, what about the fact that you have to work at Wal-Mart? That the Federal Government won't let you work anywhere else...wait...what? You mean you can choose not to work at Wal-Mart?

        Yeah, but the applicants are told that they can never earn more than minimum wage, and that they can never advance beyond the....what? ....wait a minute...you mean you actually can advance, and earn more money there?

        That this low wage is really just a starting wage, like just about every retailer on the planet?

        Wait a minute! I went to another, higher end, store that sold groceries at theother end of town to show that their employees are paid twice what Wal-Mart pays their employees for the exact same job! Yup! "Almost $9 an hour!" That's at least twice as much as...wait...carry the 2...divide by...Nuts. OK, I give up.

        No! Wal-Mart is big, and therefore evil. Remember, anyone that gets wealthy, and doesn't give their wealth away? Evil.

        Nobody cheers for Goliath.

        Claude "President; Fans of Goliath" Whitacre
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    "Wage slavery" is nothing more than a personal prison people entrap themselves in due to poor choices. Nobody forces anyone to work at WalMart. You reap what you sow.

    The term "wage slavery" is a slap in the face of any person who has ever been enslaved.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    I knew it was propaganda when I saw it was from the Kos, the place where truthful journalism went to die.
    Hardly "the" place. Like many other sources of "news" on tv and online,
    they are just copying the successful model perfected by Fox.


    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    When Walmart employees manage to organize and strike, things will change. Until they do, I tire of the incessant whining.
    Agreed 100%... The disorganized efforts of so many different
    groups that don't communicate with one another... Few things
    are as annoying as impotent activism.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      Hardly "the" place. Like many other sources of "news" on tv and online,
      they are just copying the successful model perfected by Fox.
      ...who copied the models of the big 3...

      The wheels go round and round, don't they?

      :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        ...who copied the models of the big 3...

        The wheels go round and round, don't they?

        :rolleyes:
        Hardly. The 'big 3' and CNN always had the same goal--
        sell more advertising at a higher price. This has lead to
        sensationalism and crappy journalism in general, but not
        the politically charged, agenda-pushing style of "news"
        entertainment outlets like Fox and the Daily Kos.



        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        The jumps in logic ion the article are mindboggling.
        You don't need logic when your target market is people
        who already agree with you.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

          Hardly. The 'big 3' and CNN always had the same goal--
          sell more advertising at a higher price. This has lead to
          sensationalism and crappy journalism in general, but not
          the politically charged, agenda-pushing style of "news"
          entertainment
          outlets like Fox and the Daily Kos.





          You don't need logic when your target market is people
          who already agree with you.
          Are you watching a different CNN than I am?



          I'm no fan of Fox either and until this forum I never even heard of Koz (or whatever). But CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS (and the like) have been corporate sponsored for years, which means they NEED ratings, which also means politicizing and agenda pushing as well as sensationalism.

          Perhaps Fox does it "better"...but not by THAT much.

          This is why I largely gave up on all of them. I prefer print mostly but even THAT medium has their slants...
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            Are you watching a different CNN than I am?



            I'm no fan of Fox either and until this forum I never even heard of Koz (or whatever). But CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS (and the like) have been corporate sponsored for years, which means they NEED ratings, which also means politicizing and agenda pushing as well as sensationalism.

            Perhaps Fox does it "better"...but not by THAT much.

            This is why I largely gave up on all of them. I prefer print mostly but even THAT medium has their slants...
            Exactly. Repeat: Fascism........follow the money..........which for CNN, ABC, NBC, and CBS...stops right at our exec branch of gov. Go figure.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        Hmmm. Well I watched one of those channels...

        What I love, however, are those who can't afford basics in life but always manage to find enough for the smart phone bill and the cigarettes (among other things)
        I haven't watched anything but a few of their special reports
        in a very long time, so I'll take your word for it. I also agree
        with most everything else you said.

        As for low wage workers wasting their money on crap they don't
        need, I'm going to refrain from making the many jokes I am sorely
        tempted to make and instead offer a solution: Go back to teaching
        some basic money management skills in Jr. High and High School.
        It's pathetic that school districts are spending millions so that they
        can play football, but nobody is teaching them a damn thing about
        the most fundamental financial responsibilities they are going
        to have as adults.

        It's not like their parents can teach them something that
        they don't know, is it??



        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        The Kos doesn't even pretend to journalism. The worst rag on the net.
        Not to defend them at all, but I promise there are worse!
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        • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
          I feel in debt to my employees who work for me. It's my responsibility. I make enough money now where earning an extra couple thousand dollars a year does nothing for me but means a lot to the people who work for me and are willing to leave their families for hours at a time and work to make a better life. I wanted to hire a female to manage inventory shipments for $22.00/hr (and I was negotiable up to $24) - She left me a voicemail saying she couldn't take the job and I called a week later to figure out why. She said it was because her husband said I must have been running some sort of scheme because my warehouse wasnt in good condition and there was no way she could make that much when he works for (local factory) for $14/hour. The reason I wanted to hire her? Because when I interviewed her she waited 15 minutes longer while I was taking a phone call, had the same job for the past 6 years, and she pushed in all of the chairs at the table the interview was take place at without me being able to see her. You know how many people I interviewed for that job? 37 people.

          My theory is that sometime during the late 70's up until now, corporations began to be ran by people who are unattached to the work force because education became more widely available and the main basis for hiring someone for an important position. If someone goes to college for 6 years, gets out and gets a corporate job in any industry and earns 3 to 4 times more than the companys labor force is completely detached to the people who do more labor based jobs for a lot less money. Then when it comes time to hire someone for a promotion, they don't hire people based on things like loyalty, effenciency, intelligence, reliability, etc... instead they want to hire someone like themselves, not who is best to run a portion of their corporation.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by Silas Hart View Post

            My theory is that sometime during the late 70's up until now, corporations began to be ran by people who are unattached to the work force because education became more widely available and the main basis for hiring someone for an important position. If someone goes to college for 6 years, gets out and gets a corporate job in any industry and earns 3 to 4 times more than the companys labor force is completely detached to the people who do more labor based jobs for a lot less money. Then when it comes time to hire someone for a promotion, they don't hire people based on things like loyalty, effenciency, intelligence, reliability, etc... instead they want to hire someone like themselves, not who is best to run a portion of their corporation.
            Silly theory! If that theory were true, inflation wouldn't have gone SKY HIGH! Some things cost FAR less than they used to, and wages have gone UP! Look at TVs, for instance. In the 1970s, even a SMALL TV would cost many HUNDREDS of dollars. And they had BLACK AND WHITE TVs! WHY?!?!?!?!? I mean they had the technology for COLOR. Well, they had black and white because they were CHEAPER!

            And you REALLY think that HUNDREDS of companies changed over night, etc? NOPE! HECK, in MY industry, we were supposedly going to be VERY well paid. Companies pay a TON! Just today, I found a simple mistake. It SHOULD be SO easy to correct that I could correct it in literally a couple minutes. ONE PERSON in a couple minutes. But NO, I have to contact a committee and am expected to wait 2 days or more. Creating a directory took over 3 weeks, and I am STILL waiting, so I had to make compromises! It will likely take 4 rounds or more. But salaries HAVE dropped. If things were more efficient, salaries could be HIGHER, and they would save money, but there would be fewer people in the company.

            So WHAT happened? Taxes, government expenses, regulations, etc... raised costs. This played a part on complicating things, and duties were cut, which made foreign goods cheaper and easier to deal with. Various things were done to get foreign workers to come in, etc.... Costs went down on things that could be shipped long distance or automated(computers, TVS, nuts, etc....). Costs went UP on things that had to be processed a lot locally and weren't automated(gas, vegetables, eggs, etc....). Labor costs went up a LOT! A given workers wages ALSO increased, but inflation and taxes cut the value. It IS ironic. My father took forever to buy my first computer, and the cost SKYROCKETED, in like a week, from about $700 to $1200. That was for a 1.023Mhz(IIRC) 6502 based APPLE II+, 48K! My last computer cost $499, was 4GB and had a 640GB drive. Alas, food and housing is FAR MORE expensive. And this DOES raise prices on some other things.

            I'm not going to say "corporate america" has clean hands. I once practically SCREAMED that ENRON should go bankrupt YEARS before they did. It was CLEAR that it was a SCAM! I thought they were simply stealing the money. It wasn't until years later that I found out it was even WORSE! They were actually using the stolen money to do the REVERSE of what they were paid to do. They were paid to LOWER their customers costs and they used the money to RAISE EVERYONE'S costs and take the spread.

            Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

          I haven't watched anything but a few of their special reports
          in a very long time, so I'll take your word for it. I also agree
          with most everything else you said.

          As for low wage workers wasting their money on crap they don't
          need, I'm going to refrain from making the many jokes I am sorely
          tempted to make and instead offer a solution: Go back to teaching
          some basic money management skills in Jr. High and High School.
          It's pathetic that school districts are spending millions so that they
          can play football, but nobody is teaching them a damn thing about
          the most fundamental financial responsibilities they are going
          to have as adults.


          It's not like their parents can teach them something that
          they don't know, is it??





          Not to defend them at all, but I promise there are worse!
          Agree 100%. When I was in high school it was not a requirement, but certain electives offered this kind of thing. I learned how to balance a checkbook when I was in the Navy and got my first apartment - didn't go so well at first
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Wage Slavery. Wage systems do suck - but I've not seen a viable alternative. The problem is that we are letting giant corporations take over everything in our country - probably the globe. Walmart gets the brunt of the ire because they are forefront in the public eye. However - this is what goes on in this country:

    Amazon warehouses, for example, put people in the hospital, kill them, and steal whatever time they can from their employees to get free work. This is not just employee grumbling. In some locations they actually rent ambulances to sit in the parking lot during Christmas because they push people so hard they drop. In Pennsylvania it was summer when they were killing their employees - one of the doctors at the local hospital noticed that the influx of dead and very sick were all from the same warehouse and they got called on that one. In Phoenix employees were suing for wage theft.

    What is going on now is part time jobs or temporary jobs only so employers don't need to pay benefits. One of the problems with part time jobs is the idiots in the personnel offices seem to have no understanding or concern for the fact that part-time employees may need to supplement with other jobs and often refuse to work with them on hours, so if someone likes their job and wants to advance in the company - they have no option to supplement with another job. The managers just don't give a rat. We're developing very distinct social class levels and if you are on the bottom - take an umbrella, you're going to get peed on.

    Temp jobs are supposed to be just that - seasonal industries or seasonal business slams, that type of thing. What these jobs end up being is just a way for businesses to have employees without having to pay them any benefits. Some companies you can't walk in the door other than as a temp, then you have to compete for permanent - if companies ever hire perm. There are places where workers work temp jobs beside permanent workers for years and aren't put on perm. In some places it's illegal to do that. The company is only allowed to keep someone temp for so long before they have to close the job or hire perm. I worked at the phone company almost 2 years as a temp and was never hired. They liked my work and wanted me there - but were unwilling to pay - so they slid around the law to keep me there. They would fire me every six months, rename my position and add a responsibility, then hire me back. I'd done a contract researching business cases for them and when I was done wanted in the company (loved that contract) and could only get in as a temp - they were on a hiring freeze for several years but would hire temps - lots and lots of temps. The worse thing about temporary work? The companies are allowed to lie their faces off about their intentions to hire people permanently.

    Now we have "right to work" laws that mean squat for the worker other than they can have a temporary or non-union job, but it also makes it easier for employers to completely trample the workers. There are no more paid sick days, no vacations, no benefits......and you can be fired for no reason so there is also no security that used to come from doing a good job. Employers are allowed to lie, cheat, steal. Managers with vials of cocaine in their desks are allowed to order drug tests for the peons. Some companies now make employees sign not only an okay for random drug tests but also that it's okay for a company to do a "body search" at will with absolutely no probable cause issues. I ripped up one such contract and told them in no uncertain terms where they could shove that one.

    No matter how much self reliant, intelligent people want to banter on here about "anyone can do it" - it's not true. There are people who just are not intellectually, physically, or emotionally all there to be able to succeed in a world that is becoming progressively more oppressive and abusive. Remember what our school systems are. A very small percentage make it out of our high schools able to function normally.

    There's always going to be low wage earners. Saying "they should do better" isn't always an answer for these people - it's pretty self-aggrandizing actually to assume that anyone who is not happy where they are is in a position to do better financially. We need to get rid of large corporations that will tear the snot out of their "human resources" to put an extra dime to the black line and start supporting small local companies that understand that the health and welfare of its workers means the sustainability for the whole community and will take a little better care of their employees - even if they are not in positions to earn much more than minimum wage.

    The way I look at it is that if you go to dinner you know you'll have service personnel to tip so you put in in your budget. If you have a business you know you have to pay employees, so put it in the company budge. It's all part of having some dignity and class and allowing others to have the same. Why Walmart is always in the public eye is that the "corporation" is so foaming at the mouth stinking greedy for expansion that they would run over their own mothers to get that next store up and damned who they hurt on the way to it. If other companies were so hot on continual expansion, they'd be more noticeable too. They are there, and they are nasty - they just hide from view better.
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      The problem is that we are letting giant corporations take over everything in our country - probably the globe.
      Yep. Thanks to Wikileaks we now know that the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) is designed to remove the sovereign status of nations (including the US), in favour of multinational corps.

      The outcome of this is that corps can sue a nation because it interferes with their "right" to make money. For example, if a corp involved in fracking has their activities curtailed due to pollution, damage to the water systems, etc., that corp can sue the government for "loss of earnings".

      Don't say that that can't happen, because exactly the scenario I described in the previous paragraph is happening to Canada right now.

      I am very angry that the new Australian government wants to sign up to this abomination by the end of this year, despite the two previous governments (1996-2007 Right, and 2007-2013 Left) rejecting them in total.

      If that wasn't bad enough, these arrangements are Top Secret, so corps can, and no doubt will, sue the Government du jour, and the taxpayers (ie the source of the funds) will never know about it.

      Further reading: Why Australians should be worried about the TPP.
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  • Profile picture of the author LarryC
    WalMart represents the worst of corporate state-sponsored capitalism. The reason it survives is that most of the people who shop there can't afford to go anywhere else. They sell goods made by virtual slaves in China and only treat their own workers slightly better.

    While I am all in favor of true free markets, you can't really use that argument to defend companies like WalMart, McDonald's and others that sell low quality items and pay minimum wage. For one thing, many of the employees are on public assistance, which means that the taxpayers are subsidizing these companies.

    These chains are also an aesthetic blight on the landscape and help to perpetuate suburban sprawl. I'm sure there's something good about them, but I can't think of anything offhand.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

      WalMart represents the worst of corporate state-sponsored capitalism. The reason it survives is that most of the people who shop there can't afford to go anywhere else. They sell goods made by virtual slaves in China and only treat their own workers slightly better.

      While I am all in favor of true free markets, you can't really use that argument to defend companies like WalMart, McDonald's and others that sell low quality items and pay minimum wage. For one thing, many of the employees are on public assistance, which means that the taxpayers are subsidizing these companies.

      These chains are also an aesthetic blight on the landscape and help to perpetuate suburban sprawl. I'm sure there's something good about them, but I can't think of anything offhand.
      In a free market, corporations that kill everything else in their paths wouldn't exist. Look at the farming industry. It's gov subsidies that have allowed the 6 major food producers to conquer the whole market. Without those subsidies, we'd have more local farmers, organic produce, and less Monsanto, Syngenta, etc.

      On the other hand - people need to understand that WE have the power to kill any company we don't like. All we have to do is refuse to work for or buy from it. Now that large corporations have tentacles into every market, it's much harder to achieve, but it still can be done.

      People here are poorly educated and right now, are very scared. They don't understand that if you kill the major corps, yes prices might be higher elsewhere, but in the end it would be more affordable for everyone to live well.

      It's really not capitalism that kills us - it's the incorporation of everything, including the gov, that is crushing us. It's called fascism and it never has done any society a benefit - and because it's so lethal, it never lasts too long before the society that adopts it crashes.

      When large sectors of a society are trying to work for a living but are being reduced to poverty, illness, are tired and miserable - they are going to be not real happy with the system. Why it's taken out on Walmart - I already covered. The company will trample whole towns to put up a new store. It's become virus-like. It's not really the store itself - it's that it's starting to represent our whole social mindsets - both those of the rich and the poor. Just a poster child for a collapsing social structure.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Fact: US companies pay the lowest percentage of total revenue for labor than at any other time since this statistic has been recorded, which I believe was 1929.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Fact: US companies pay the lowest percentage of total revenue for labor than at any other time since this statistic has been recorded, which I believe was 1929.
      The fact alone doesn't mean anything. More data is needed. This could simply be due to labor efficiencies and/or replacement of the labor force by technology.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        The fact alone doesn't mean anything. More data is needed. This could simply be due to labor efficiencies and/or replacement of the labor force by technology.
        You forgot to mention it could also be caused by greed, among other things. Irregardless, it does show businesses in general could afford to pay more to their people, especially considering how CEOs' pay has increased since the 1970s.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          You forgot to mention it could also be caused by greed, among other things. Irregardless, it does show businesses in general could afford to pay more to their people, especially considering how CEOs' pay has increased since the 1970s.
          I didn't forget to mention anything. I offered a counterpoint to what I assumed was your point (based on your prior posts on the subject).

          "Could afford" doesn't equate to "should pay more." Employees enter an agreement to work for a certain wage. Employer profits (or not).

          I can afford to pay my lawn guy more, but I'm not going to. We entered into an agreement. I didn't force him to take the work, just like WalMart didn't force the employee to accept the smock.

          But we've had this discussion and I'm not trying to rehash it. The point of my post was muddle in a hasty reply. Do you have a source for your fact as I'd like to read the article/study/whatever - not for the sake of argument, but out of curiosity?

          Added later: This article is the reason I brought up my original point:
          http://www.technologyreview.com/feat...stroying-jobs/

          The article offers point/counterpoint regarding technology's effect on the labor force. What I find interesting is the part that contends that technology is hollowing the middle class without causing a net loss of jobs.
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          • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post


            "Could afford" doesn't equate to "should pay more." Employees enter an agreement to work for a certain wage. Employer profits (or not).

            I can afford to pay my lawn guy more, but I'm not going to. We entered into an agreement. I didn't force him to take the work, just like WalMart didn't force the employee to accept the smock.
            Shame on you. You're just as evil as WalMart. You owe it to your lawn guy to give him a 100% pay raise and a company car. If you don't, then you're just greedy.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

              Shame on you. You're just as evil as WalMart. You owe it to your lawn guy to give him a 100% pay raise and a company car. If you don't, then you're just greedy.
              I just looked up "greed when dealing with lawn care professionals"...as a verb, it's known as....yes, you guessed it..."Riffling".

              I am NOT making his up.
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              • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                I just looked up "greed when dealing with lawn care professionals"...as a verb, it's known as....yes, you guessed it..."Riffling".

                I am NOT making his up.
                I actually looked up "Riffling" then I suddenly realized I had been "Whitacred".
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

            I didn't forget to mention anything. I offered a counterpoint to what I assumed was your point (based on your prior posts on the subject).
            I stated a fact. You offered an opinion with an obvious bias. Therefore, I offered an opposite point of view to counter your opinion.


            "Could afford" doesn't equate to "should pay more." Employees enter an agreement to work for a certain wage. Employer profits (or not).
            There was a time in this country when companies felt a social responsibility.

            I can afford to pay my lawn guy more, but I'm not going to. We entered into an agreement. I didn't force him to take the work, just like WalMart didn't force the employee to accept the smock.
            You're right. You don't have to pay any more. But you could. When I hire outsourcers and they do a good job for me and are on time, I like giving them unexpected bonuses that we didn't "agree" on. They work better for me, I'm always their #1 priority and it makes me feel good.


            But we've had this discussion and I'm not trying to rehash it. The point of my post was muddle in a hasty reply. Do you have a source for your fact as I'd like to read the article/study/whatever - not for the sake of argument, but out of curiosity?
            I don't have a link off hand, you can dismiss it if you want, but you may be able to google it.
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            • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post




              There was a time in this country when companies felt a social responsibility.
              Are you talking about a time when companies felt a responsibility to give kids jobs? :p

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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

                Are you talking about a time when companies felt a responsibility to give kids jobs? :p

                No. I'm talking about the time after Teddy Roosevelt starting changing those things for the better and up till the time Regan became president and people starting believing "greed is good".
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                • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  No. I'm talking about the time after Teddy Roosevelt starting changing those things for the better and up till the time Regan became president and people starting believing "greed is good".
                  I'll never understand how people embrace Ayn Rand over John Nash??? :confused:
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                  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                    Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

                    I'll never understand how people embrace Ayn Rand over John Nash??? :confused:
                    I've never understood how people embrace Ayn Rand.

                    It is not hard to see why Rand appeals to billionaires. She offers them something that is crucial to every successful political movement: a sense of victimhood.
                    How Ayn Rand became the new right's version of Marx
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
              I stated a fact. You offered an opinion with an obvious bias. Therefore, I offered an opposite point of view to counter your opinion.
              Oh, I assumed bias in your statement of fact. Consider it receiver error.



              There was a time in this country when companies felt a social responsibility.
              This is too subjective to address, but my opinion is that companies have no greater social responsibility - in terms of wages - than to offer a legal wage an employee accepts.



              You're right. You don't have to pay any more. But you could. When I hire outsourcers and they do a good job for me and are on time, I like giving them unexpected bonuses that we didn't "agree" on. They work better for me, I'm always their #1 priority and it makes me feel good.
              Good for you - and I mean that. Many companies do the same.


              I don't have a link off hand, you can dismiss it if you want, but you may be able to google it.
              I did a cursory search and came up blank. I believe what you're saying. I'd just like to see what else was involved. No biggie.
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    • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Fact: US companies pay the lowest percentage of total revenue for labor than at any other time since this statistic has been recorded, which I believe was 1929.
      How much of that can be attributed to increases in automation and other efficiency related changes in industry?
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
        Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

        How much of that can be attributed to increases in automation and other efficiency related changes in industry?
        OK, now you're just post-stalking me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

        How much of that can be attributed to increases in automation and other efficiency related changes in industry?
        How much can be attributed to pure greed?

        We do know the rich are getting richer and the middle class and the poor are getting poorer. Why are they getting poorer if the decrease in revenue to workers is because only of automation and more efficiency? It would seem it that was the case, wouldn't they have kept up with a similar standard of living.
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  • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
    Even if WalMart paid their employees double what they currently do, couldn't they still have part time employees with financial troubles?

    I don't understand the WalMart hate. Don't they pay the same for unskilled labor as lots of other employers who pay minimum wage? What would unskilled WalMart employees be earning if they weren't working at WalMart for minimum wage? If WalMart is so bad for paying them minimum wage for a job that isn't particularly demanding, then why don't those employees go work for somebody else and get paid a lot more if they consider themselves worth it?
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

      Are you watching a different CNN than I am?



      I'm no fan of Fox either and until this forum I never even heard of Koz (or whatever). But CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS (and the like) have been corporate sponsored for years, which means they NEED ratings, which also means politicizing and agenda pushing as well as sensationalism.

      Perhaps Fox does it "better"...but not by THAT much.

      This is why I largely gave up on all of them. I prefer print mostly but even THAT medium has their slants...
      No, not watching a different CNN, but they do at least try
      to pretend they are giving both sides of the stories they "report".
      Fox, MSNBC, Daily Kos... They have never even tried to pretend
      they are in any other business other than the political spin game.

      Agreed 100% that print is preferred, and even that is getting
      difficult to find without the slant. Am I the only one who has
      started reading articles directly from the AP? lol




      Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

      Even if WalMart paid their employees double what they currently do, couldn't they still have part time employees with financial troubles?

      I don't understand the WalMart hate. Don't they pay the same for unskilled labor as lots of other employers who pay minimum wage? What would unskilled WalMart employees be earning if they weren't working at WalMart for minimum wage? If WalMart is so bad for paying them minimum wage for a job that isn't particularly demanding, then why don't those employees go work for somebody else and get paid a lot more if they consider themselves worth it?

      Most of the hate is rooted in the fact that Wal-Mart kills
      local businesses that most people believe would be better for
      them and their community.

      But, it's been brought up before and it's an excellent point:
      Unskilled workers who get hired with little or no experience
      and go to work for a company with plenty of growth opportunity
      shouldn't be complaining, they should be busy separating themselves
      from the herd, pulling ahead and putting themselves into
      a better position.

      Then again, I suppose that many of them are easily distracted
      by the fact that they only place they can afford to spend
      their food stamps is the store where they work, and they
      can't afford to take a day off to care for their sick children?
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        No, not watching a different CNN, but they do at least try
        to pretend they are giving both sides of the stories they "report".

        Fox, MSNBC, Daily Kos... They have never even tried to pretend
        they are in any other business other than the political spin game.

        Agreed 100% that print is preferred, and even that is getting
        difficult to find without the slant. Am I the only one who has
        started reading articles directly from the AP? lol
        Hmmm. Well I watched one of those channels where a particular "reverend" has/had a talk show. And as he was going to commercial he said something about coming back to talk about why conservatives/republicans are completely wrong about some topic or other.

        And the guests? 3 other liberals. So it seems they don't pretend either

        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post


        Most of the hate is rooted in the fact that Wal-Mart kills
        local businesses
        that most people believe would be better for
        them and their community.
        While not a fan of big box stores myself (have not shopped our local WM in about 7 years), you have to consider WHY they close down local businesses.

        The demographic.

        Many of the same people lambasting stores like WM and their evil ways absolutely LOVE all the low prices. And they get more and more profitable every year. Why? Because people absolutely LOVE all the low prices.

        Yeah - big bad evil stores. How DARE they sell things cheaper because people absolutely LOVE all the low prices.

        If most people truly believed the smaller store would be better for their communities then they should vote with their wallets. Actions speak louder than words...which is why I stopped shopping in ours 7 years ago. Obviously my one wallet wasn't enough to close them down.



        Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

        But, it's been brought up before and it's an excellent point:
        Unskilled workers who get hired with little or no experience
        and go to work for a company with plenty of growth opportunity
        shouldn't be complaining, they should be busy separating themselves
        from the herd, pulling ahead and putting themselves into
        a better position.

        Then again, I suppose that many of them are easily distracted
        by the fact that they only place they can afford to spend
        their food stamps is the store where they work, and they
        can't afford to take a day off to care for their sick children?
        Good points.

        What I love, however, are those who can't afford basics in life but always manage to find enough for the smart phone bill and the cigarettes (among other things)
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

          Hmmm. Well I watched one of those channels where a particular "reverend" has/had a talk show. And as he was going to commercial he said something about coming back to talk about why conservatives/republicans are completely wrong about some topic or other.

          And the guests? 3 other liberals. So it seems they don't pretend either



          While not a fan of big box stores myself (have not shopped our local WM in about 7 years), you have to consider WHY they close down local businesses.

          The demographic.

          Many of the same people lambasting stores like WM and their evil ways absolutely LOVE all the low prices. And they get more and more profitable every year. Why? Because people absolutely LOVE all the low prices.

          Yeah - big bad evil stores. How DARE they sell things cheaper because people absolutely LOVE all the low prices.

          If most people truly believed the smaller store would be better for their communities then they should vote with their wallets. Actions speak louder than words...which is why I stopped shopping in ours 7 years ago. Obviously my one wallet wasn't enough to close them down.





          Good points.

          What I love, however, are those who can't afford basics in life but always manage to find enough for the smart phone bill and the cigarettes (among other things)
          I was hanging with Walmart on ONE product that I just couldn't find anywhere else. I stopped getting anything else at all there, though, because frankly - if we stopped importing everything under the sun from China, we might be able to put our own people back to work - and wouldn't have the toxic risks that country is shipping to us. I finally found the product elsewhere and that's the last that company has seen of me.

          Which is another point you have to look at........What other jobs? There aren't whopping numbers of other jobs for people to go get. It used to be that you could drop down in a factory and could at least make a living. Where exactly are the factories? China. We're so busy making trade deals so that other countries will like us and want to do trade with us that we've completely disenfranchised our workers.

          Sending jobs overseas was not just some stupid little blunder, either. Anyone with an economics background could see where all the wheeling and dealing was leading. Instead of free enterprise we have a few companies controlling everything. Instead of happy self sufficient workers, we have surfs and indentured servants. Instead of being able to negotiate your value and benefits with a company, you take what the few offer or you starve. You might starve even if you do take the offer.

          How do you tell we've gone from employment to serfdom? Drug tests. At exactly what level of employment do they stop testing people? The squat and pee bullshyte isn't because they are worried about drugs - it's an ownership play. If a company asks to drug test me, I ask if the person I work for and their boss also are drug tested. They will act like you slapped them when they realize you think you are actually as much of a free human as they are. Not only is the company asking you to give them bodily fluid for a job - they are taking your constitutional right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. This was an action I fought tooth and nail to get people to abolish - but because it was "for our safety" they didn't seem to be able to understand the more esoteric and dangerous issues.

          What has happened is that corporations were given carte blanche permission to violate the employee's individual rights according to this country's constitution - a fascist action. It makes my stomach just churn every time I hear the word "human resources".

          If a company is larger than local -- I do everything in my power not to deal with it. At all.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

            How do you tell we've gone from employment to serfdom? Drug tests. At exactly what level of employment do they stop testing people? The squat and pee bullshyte isn't because they are worried about drugs - it's an ownership play. If a company asks to drug test me, I ask if the person I work for and their boss also are drug tested.
            You have got to be KIDDING me! They are testing ME now, and that NEVER happened before. It is NOT saying that employment has gone to serfdom. It was ALWAYS a bit on the "serfdom" side. It is saying that MORE PEOPLE TAKE DRUGS! HEY, drugs they test for may impede my performance, and get me to act crazy. At wallmart, they COULD help cause some accidents. They have ENOUGH.

            BTW where I work NOW, I was at a couple times before. This is the FIRST time I had to get a urine test. At one customer, testing my predecessor showed he was a CONVICTED DRUG DEALER! Just HAVING him there was a danger, even if he did NOTHING wrong!

            I CAN, sadly, understand WHY they test. I DON'T TAKE DRUGS, and don't think for a minute I like it, but that is ANOTHER thing I blame SOCIETY for, and NOT the corporations.

            HECK, I have to work some odd hours, and fill out stupid forms because some consultants at MICROSOFT once sued to get stuff they SPECIFICALLY waived their rights to! I never worked at microsoft, but the suit scared nearly everyone else!

            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
              I find it odd that people who wouldn't dare step foot in a Walmart or other evil corporation because of "slave wages" and the threat to local business . . . have absolutely no problem conducting their own business on a site where finding "pocket change" foreign workers is standard operating procedure.
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              • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

                I find it odd that people who wouldn't dare step foot in a Walmart or other evil corporation because of "slave wages" and the threat to local business . . . have absolutely no problem conducting their own business on a site where finding "pocket change" foreign workers is standard operating procedure.

                I don't shop at Walmart and I don't shop for services from "pocket change" foreign workers. Most of the work product is as much garbage as the Walmart products are. I would prefer to pay more and get quality work when I need to outsource.
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                • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                  Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                  I don't shop at Walmart and I don't shop for services from "pocket change" foreign workers. Most of the work product is as much garbage as the Walmart products are. I would prefer to pay more and get quality work when I need to outsource.
                  The perceived quality of products and services that you or I or anyone else chooses to purchase is far from the point of my post. Although I will say that what some may consider a garbage product can be seen as a basic necessity or luxury item for many in America and elsewhere. I highly doubt that the truckloads of free food from Walmart for the local food pantries that garyv mentioned are considered garbage to those in need.

                  Still, "quality" was not at all the point of my post.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              The tendency to bend and stretch the facts is a hallmark of these "movements". That's one reason I'm not sympathetic on the WM pay disputes.

              Last year the worker argument was they earn only minimum wage - but that's not true for most as average pay for full time workers is $12.83. This year the argument used is that 52% of WM workers earn less than $25k.

              WM announced in Sept they were moving 350,000 workers from part time to full time in the next year - and giving them benefits. That isn't mentioned by the protestors....because it doesn't fit the union agenda if the company makes positive changes.

              How do you tell we've gone from employment to serfdom? Drug tests.
              Who resists drug testing? People who won't pass the tests. An employee who is high - or drunk - is not safe in the workplace and makes the workplace unsafe for others. There are employers who don't test - but they aren't the ones who pay well.

              I should add: I've worked with people who were high and a bit drunk. They honestly think no one notices their condition - and that is delusional thinking. I've covered for people who came to work "impaired" but I'll only do it once. If you don't care more for your job than that - you're on your own if you do it again.

              I think businesses even in legalization areas will stick to a no tolerance policy for now - if only due to potential liability issues.
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              • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                WM announced in Sept they were moving 350,000 workers from part time to full time in the next year - and giving them benefits. That isn't mentioned by the protestors....
                Many good things that the company does are ignored.

                It has its faults, as all businesses do. It also has its good points, which all businesses don't.
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                • Profile picture of the author KimW
                  Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post

                  Many good things that the company does are ignored.

                  It has its faults, as all businesses do. It also has its good points, which all businesses don't.

                  Sometimres the good outweighs the bad,sometimes the bad outweighs the good.

                  In this case, in my opinion, the bad far outweighs the good.

                  I think Sam Walton would roll over in his grave if he saw what his company has become.
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  • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
    I'm kidding about the child labor, Kurt.
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    • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
      Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

      I'm kidding about the child labor, Kurt.
      I just noticed your location: Потёмкинские деревни or actually it's derivative of such.

      Or are you not referring to the works of Gregory Potemkin?

      Not part of this topic but it interested me.

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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    This OT forum is getting horrible about OPs taking things out of context. All you had to do is read Walmarts reply on the subject instead of linking to a POS site that's no authority.

    You might as well have linked to The Onion.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    "The average Walmart sale associate makes $8.81 per hour."

    That's a LOT more than I made when I worked for minimum wage. Funny, I seem to recall it being tied to child labor back then.

    And do you realize that 8.81/hour in the *****OLD***** standard was $18324.8(52 weeks a year)? That is a FORTUNE! I mean in 1930 that much would make you like a MILLIONAIRE NOW! "OH YEAH", you say, "THAT was over EIGHTY years ago!"! SO? INFLATION! WATCH, in 30 years, you will be complaining that people only get like 40-50 dollars an hour for minimum wage. BTW the NEW standard is $13285.48, at 8.81! SAME WAGE! But you can't blame your opponents or walmart, or even the minimum wage for THAT!

    And how much are the union dues on 8.81 anyway?

    But YEAH, you're right! ENRON should be FORCED to pay for all the retirement funds they emptied, etc.... Also, the federal government should do it for social security, etc... And HEY, how about all the taxes on savings for retirement? They should get rid of THAT also! Funny how some seem to be so impervious to having THEIR greed pointed out! I was speaking with a coworker just a few hours ago about how I won't be paid for 8 hours last week because some idiot in another state INSISTED that I have a 2 minute test THERE! 12 hour car ride!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    It doesn't make any since to expect Walmart to increase wages, do people really think new hires started working for Walmart not knowing they would ever be earning a living above poverty level?

    Walmart has it's place, it does exactly what it needs to do, supply low end jobs/wages.

    What's sad is Walmart pays out more than most mom & pop stores that went out of business on Main Street USA. Now you know why the mom & pop shops went belly up on Main Street, their wages sucked worse than Walmart wages. Anyone that was around before Walmart existed in their home town already knows this.
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    I think I am with Henry David Thoreau on how to approach this and many other issues. One can wait until the cows come home for society and one's real or perceived oppressors to adjust to ones needs, or one can create a more agreeable alternative for oneself without needing help from such entities, even if it means living in the forest.
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  • Profile picture of the author lcombs
    It ain't just WM folks.

    It's business in general.
    A buddy of mine works at Lowes.
    They send him home an hour early 1 day a week so he only gets 39 hrs.
    1 hr. short of full time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
    Kay brought up good points in not having a knee jerk, emotional reaction without thinking about the situation and seeing what other factors, factors other than just a pay rate, might have to do with it.

    I am not defending Wal-Mart - I am not a fan of International Corporations as they are Centralized Power, damn near as effective in their power as governments. Nor am I a fan of money and am not motivated by accumulating as much as I can and making sure I get maximum profit in zero-sum exchanges, where every penny I make means someone else is one penny poorer. But we all gotta make it and making it beats the hell out of trying to build my own house, grow my food, make my clothes, administer my own health care, etc.

    One other important factor, aside from the disparity in Wal-Mart Corporate profits relative to paying a low wage is that we are in Stagflation. I'm 41, so was a kid when it was in full swing in the 70's, but I remember it and what an issue it was. Disproved a major Keynesian economic theory, as well.

    High Inflation and low growth. Inflation is much worse than has been talked about the last few years. The government doesn't really add much weight to the price of food and fuel when calculating the inflation rate and then releasing that info to us. Although they excuse it by saying that these prices fluctuate too much to get an accurate projection of core inflation rates, but that is as much POLITICS as it is economics.

    All ya'll been watching food prices over the last 2-3 years, right? Yowsers. That and fuel. Were the government to include those numbers, as they should, the published and repeated in the news inflation rate would be higher.

    Maybe it ain't just that Wal-Mart is paying low, but that our economy is in a state of stagflation, again and still, and food is more expensive because of that inflation. In other words, it ain't just Wal-Mart's fault. It is more difficult for many people who don't work there to buy food today, too. When it comes to stagflation, the vast majority of lower and middle class are all in the same boat, no matter their employer, and some are struggling to put expensive and extra meals on their tables.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Christopher Fox View Post

      Kay brought up good points in not having a knee jerk, emotional reaction without thinking about the situation and seeing what other factors, factors other than just a pay rate, might have to do with it.

      I am not defending Wal-Mart - I am not a fan of International Corporations as they are Centralized Power, damn near as effective in their power as governments. Nor am I a fan of money and am not motivated by accumulating as much as I can and making sure I get maximum profit in zero-sum exchanges, where every penny I make means someone else is one penny poorer. But we all gotta make it and making it beats the hell out of trying to build my own house, grow my food, make my clothes, administer my own health care, etc.

      One other important factor, aside from the disparity in Wal-Mart Corporate profits relative to paying a low wage is that we are in Stagflation. I'm 41, so was a kid when it was in full swing in the 70's, but I remember it and what an issue it was. Disproved a major Keynesian economic theory, as well.

      High Inflation and low growth. Inflation is much worse than has been talked about the last few years. The government doesn't really add much weight to the price of food and fuel when calculating the inflation rate and then releasing that info to us. Although they excuse it by saying that these prices fluctuate too much to get an accurate projection of core inflation rates, but that is as much POLITICS as it is economics.

      All ya'll been watching food prices over the last 2-3 years, right? Yowsers. That and fuel. Were the government to include those numbers, as they should, the published and repeated in the news inflation rate would be higher.

      Maybe it ain't just that Wal-Mart is paying low, but that our economy is in a state of stagflation, again and still, and food is more expensive because of that inflation. In other words, it ain't just Wal-Mart's fault. It is more difficult for many people who don't work there to buy food today, too. When it comes to stagflation, the vast majority of lower and middle class are all in the same boat, no matter their employer, and some are struggling to put expensive and extra meals on their tables.
      WELL SAID!!!!!!!!

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

      The bottom line is that WalMart is corporate welfare.
      Larry; You're a smart guy, but "The Institute For Local Self Reliance"?

      Now, who would think that they would have a gripe about Wal-Mart?

      I attended a town meeting of local merchants (of which I was/am one)..
      It was about Wal-Mart moving into the area, buying farm land north of town.

      After I heard several speakers (a few were good friends of mine) talking about how we had to stop Wal-Mart. I finally raised my hand and said (Rather stupidly, considering the audience).

      "I think you guys are right. Wal-Mart has no business here (cheers...so far)!
      just because the local consumers will have a far better selection, and far lower prices...what about us? We make up at least 1% of the town. Just because it will provide a great shopping experience for 99% of the town...screw them! I'm with you guys! Who cares about consumers?! It forces us to be competitive. And I won't stand for that!"

      A few seconds of silence. One woman started crying (I never found out why).
      A good friend of mine (the local sign painter) wouldn't look at me, and never spoke to me again. The local printer walked up to me and said "You lost friends here.". I said "I know. And it pains me."

      I knew my point would be unpopular. I expected someone to yell at me. But they didn't. I think they were hurt. Like one of their family just turned on them. There were maybe 35 people in the room. And you could feel the looks of betrayal. But I was younger then. And not as diplomatic.

      The local high end grocer (or at least a relative) said "I didn't know you were "Pro Wal-Mart". I said "I'm not. I'm Anti-Stupidity".

      I left (my then-girlfriend tugging on my arm to leave). I don't know what happened there afterwards.

      This was maybe 25 years ago. Of course, Wal-Mart came. Some small businesses went away, because they had taken advantage of the fact that the locals had no choice, but to buy from them. And now, with real competiton, they couldn't survive.

      But you know what? Wal-Mart employees still buy from local businesses. It's a great source of customers. And if it wasn't Wal-Mart..it would have been a Mall...or Amazon.com...or E-Bay...Something would have made us wake up to the 21st century.

      Mobs have no mind.
      The opposite of Courage, is Conformity.
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      • Profile picture of the author LarryC
        << This was maybe 25 years ago. Of course, Wal-Mart came. Some small businesses went away, because they had taken advantage of the fact that the locals had no choice, but to buy from them. And now, with real competiton, they couldn't survive.

        But you know what? Wal-Mart employees still buy from local businesses. It's a great source of customers. And if it wasn't Wal-Mart..it would have been a Mall...or Amazon.com...or E-Bay...Something would have made us wake up to the 21st century.

        Mobs have no mind.
        The opposite of Courage, is Conformity. >>

        Claude, I can't think of that as honest competition when you consider the source of WalMart's products -slave labor. As for conformity, to me that's what WalMart embodies with its box stores and mass produced junk.

        Granted, WalMart is only the largest and most successful representative of this issue. Box stores, fast food, factory farming, the pharmaceutical industry are all aspects of an emerging monolithic culture that pretends to be American but is really globalist in nature.

        If this model of culture prevails, the future will be a dystopian nightmare, if there is any future at all. I'm optimistic enough to believe that it's not going to prevail, though. People are waking up and realizing that they cannot allow things to continue on the same path.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
          Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

          Box stores, fast food, factory farming, the pharmaceutical industry are all aspects of an emerging monolithic culture that pretends to be American but is really globalist in nature.

          If this model of culture prevails, the future will be a dystopian nightmare, if there is any future at all.
          Larry, I'm very interested to see the points above expanded. Color me intrigued.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            Could be wrong but isn't dystopia the opposite of utopia - and just about as likely to evolve?
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            • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Could be wrong but isn't dystopia the opposite of utopia - and just about as likely to evolve?
              Yes, that is what that means. They are normally associated with the totalitarianism that generally follows cataclysmic events in human history.

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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Walmart make a handsome profit. Most jobs where you work for an employer, you dont get rich, you get by unless you are the CEO, although there are different levels of getting by depending on your levels of what that is to your mind.

                However, having worked in retail I cant understand the small earnings phenomina. If you are paid and treated well and trained on product knowledge you are happier and make the shopping a happier experience for the customer. Good customer service and shopping experience promotes more profits and qdos for the store.

                Just sheer greed on the part of the employer and that is short sighted to my mind.
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            • Profile picture of the author seasoned
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              Could be wrong but isn't dystopia the opposite of utopia - and just about as likely to evolve?
              Ironically, utopia means NO PLACE! It generally describes a place so fantastically great that it could never exist. Dystopia means a BAD place. They exist ALL OVER!

              I was JUST reading about the new COMMUNIST president of venezuela. He was given FULL UNRESTRAINED power for a YEAR! The vote in parliament JUST Hit the required 60%! He promised that TOMORROW he will publish his first two edicts. He is off to a HORRIBLE start! He limited profits for all, set the exchange rate to an illegal value, and BANNED all access to world exchanges so people can see the REAL rates.

              GREAT ideas for a country that does NO business with the outside world, and has tons of resources, and he knows EVERYTHING about them. Alas, they DO have business elsewhere, and DON'T have endless resources, and he DOESN'T know everything, so they are suffering.

              He ALSO demanded that a store sell things at a price HE thought was fair. The store was cleaned out and likely won't be restocked!

              Sounds like a dystopia!

              Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author LarryC
            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

            Larry, I'm very interested to see the points above expanded. Color me intrigued.
            I just think that if several current trends continue it could result in a grim future. Consider an ever expanding poor and underclass, a food supply system full of hormones, antibiotics and other additives with often unknown consequences, a pharmaceutical industry that encourages dependency on prescription drugs, a privatized and growing prison system...(I'm probably leaving out some things) and there is the potential for a society largely populated with drugged, poor, obese, unhealthy uneducated drones/slaves/prisoners.

            Granted, that's a worst case scenario outlook and I'm hopeful that it can be averted. If so, however, it will be in spite of the current political and economic status quo.
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

          Claude, I can't think of that as honest competition when you consider the source of WalMart's products -slave labor. As for conformity, to me that's what WalMart embodies with its box stores and mass produced junk.
          In the last year, I bought 2 sets of Michelin tires from WalMart. No apologies. Free flat repair, and nationwide.

          I bought a 55" Samsung LED television, and a Sony home theater sound system from WalMart. Both cheaper than BestBuy.

          I bought a Keurig coffee maker (waste of money, that one).

          I buy groceries all the time at WallyWorld - not their Great Value brand usually, but quite a lot of other name-brand foods.

          Maybe it's all mass-produced junk, I don't know - but it suits me fine, and leaves me some extra money to pay for other things we want or need.

          WalMart pays employees what the local market demands for the skill level it needs. Period. AutoZone does the same thing. All businesses do the same. Labor cost is driven by supply and demand, just like almost everything else.

          When I was painting, I could hire low-skilled painters for $12/hr. I didn't, because they didn't offer the skills I needed. The people I needed cost me $20/hr. That's what I paid. Rather, that's what my customers paid.
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I don't have a dog in this fight, but one thing that keeps coming up has me curious.

    Slave labor has been mentioned a few times. If Walmart didn't buy from those countries that are being decried for slave labor, what would the plight of those people be without them? Would they even have jobs? Would they have an income at all? Is it possible they're better off working at so-called slave wages, than they would be otherwise?

    Again, I'm not taking sides, I'm just curious if anyone has an answer to that.
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    • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      If Walmart didn't buy from those countries that are being decried for slave labor, what would the plight of those people be without them? Would they even have jobs? Would they have an income at all? Is it possible they're better off working at so-called slave wages, than they would be otherwise?
      According to UNICEF's The State of the World's Children, sweat shops might not be all that bad compared to the alternatives...

      The Harkin Bill, which was introduced into the US Congress in 1992 with the laudable aim of prohibiting the import of products made by children under 15, is a case in point. As of September 1996, the Bill had yet to find its way onto the statute books. But the mere threat of such a measure panicked the garment industry of Bangladesh, 60 per cent of whose products — some $900 million in value — were exported to the US in 1994. Child workers, most of them girls, were summarily dismissed from the garment factories. A study sponsored by international organizations took the unusual step of tracing some of these children to see what happened to them after their dismissal. Some were found working in more hazardous situations, in unsafe workshops where they were paid less, or in prostitution.
      So if you take away a child's sweatshop job, you might be forcing them into prostitution.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    What some people may not also realize about Walmart is that they are probably the largest supplier of food to local food pantries nation wide. The local pantry I work at receives 2 truck loads of groceries per week from the near-by Walmart.

    I myself cringe when I see a Walmart use their leverage to force prices down on a local economy. But then again, I have a very nice large flat-screen TV hanging in my living room that wouldn't have been possible without the margin squeezing tactics Walmart has used on it's vendors over the years. There are many things that you can love or hate about Walmart - but the thing I love the most is that we are all free to shop or not shop there as we please.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      I remember, even ten years ago....Most people wouldn't shop at Wal-Mart.

      When I shopped, I noticed that the people just looked ...bad. I mean the shoppers. They were mostly the poorest, and weren't the people who took care of themselves. Sort of like at some Buffet style restaurants.

      Only the very poor, and price shoppers went there.

      Now? Most people don't give it another thought. My wife won't buy some groceries there.....But Wal-Mart and Target sure make shopping easier and cheaper.

      I should mention that personally, I would pay more than minimum wage. $9 or $10 sounds about right. I pay my employees much more than that.

      But force a company to pay their employees what we think they should be paid? I'm not for that at all.

      Originally Posted by LarryC View Post

      Claude, I can't think of that as honest competition when you consider the source of WalMart's products -slave labor. As for conformity, to me that's what WalMart embodies with its box stores and mass produced junk.
      Larry; When I said Conformity, I meant us...jumping on a bandwagon without thinking. Getting angry as a group without rational thought.

      It's the rule, not the exception. Believe me, I've met us.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I remember, even ten years ago....Most people wouldn't shop at Wal-Mart.

        When I shopped, I noticed that the people just looked ...bad. I mean the shoppers. They were mostly the poorest, and weren't the people who took care of themselves. Sort of like at some Buffet style restaurants.

        Only the very poor, and price shoppers went there.

        Now? Most people don't give it another thought. My wife won't buy some groceries there.....But Wal-Mart and Target sure make shopping easier and cheaper.

        I should mention that personally, I would pay more than minimum wage. $9 or $10 sounds about right. I pay my employees much more than that.

        But force a company to pay their employees what we think they should be paid? I'm not for that at all.

        Larry; When I said Conformity, I meant us...jumping on a bandwagon without thinking. Getting angry as a group without rational thought.

        It's the rule, not the exception. Believe me, I've met us.
        But force a company to pay their employees what we think they should be paid? I'm not for that at all.



        I say...


        IMHO, the society (the group) has the right to determine what is a fair wage and impose it on those that conduct business within it.

        All the studies and historical data strongly suggest slowly but surely raising the minimum wage won't kill off businesses (especially those like Walmart) and will improve the lot of the society in general - in many ways.

        So calling for a gradual raise in the minimum wage to what is called a living wage is not some sort of out-of anger knee-jerk reaction - if that is your suggestion.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          IMHO, the society (the group) has the right to determine what is a fair wage and impose it on those that conduct business within it.

          All the studies and historical data strongly suggest slowly but surely raising the minimum wage won't kill off businesses (especially those like Walmart) and will improve the lot of the society in general - in many ways.

          So calling for a gradual raise in the minimum wage to what is called a living wage is not some sort of out-of anger knee-jerk reaction - if that is your suggestion.
          TL; Your post is correct. We are just talking about opinions. Yours and mine.
          My opinion is that people should be paid more Again, $9 or $10 an hour for labor is a decent number...in my opinion.

          But, again, in my opinion... I shouldn't force my opinion on other people.
          So, even though I personally think workers should be paid more, I don't think I have the right to force my feeling on the subject (and that's all it is) on other people.

          I truly understand your point of view, and it's as valid as mine. Maybe more...because I think you care more about it.


          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          So calling for a gradual raise in the minimum wage to what is called a living wage is not some sort of out-of anger knee-jerk reaction - if that is your suggestion.
          Nope. Jumping on a bandwagon without thinking, is what I was talking about.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          IMHO, the society (the group) has the right to determine what is a fair wage and impose it on those that conduct business within it.
          You don't even have the ABILITY, let alone the right! Raise it too high, and the company WILL lay off workers, fire people, etc.... What of the THOUSANDS of examples have you missed?

          All the studies and historical data strongly suggest slowly but surely raising the minimum wage won't kill off businesses (especially those like Walmart) and will improve the lot of the society in general - in many ways.
          You know WHY raising it so much hasn't hurt the companies that much? Because it was actually gone ********DOWN*********! Adjusted for inflation, over one span I checked, I believe it was 1975-2010, the rate actually DROPPED about 25%! So why does it seem like it has gone up, etc? INFLATION!!!!!

          So calling for a gradual raise in the minimum wage to what is called a living wage is not some sort of out-of anger knee-jerk reaction - if that is your suggestion.
          Haven't the trees given ENOUGH already?

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  • Profile picture of the author Young Financier
    Being a person of responsibility that I am, I wouldn't say that Wal-Mart needs to pay higher wages --- I'd say that people need to find better employment which starts with first becoming more skilled. It's been known for some time now that Wal-Mart doesn't pay great yet people still seek employment with them and whine about the conditions. Sorry but I'm not sympathetic towards Wal-Mart employees.
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    Walmart is operating within the law. It would be down right stupid of them not to use every advantage within the bounds of the law to gain profit. If we have a problem with the way Walmart operates, we have only 2 options that I can see. You either stop shopping there, or you try and change the laws that dictate their operating procedures.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cleaner44
    Walmart buys time. Some people are willing to sell it for less than $9 per hour apparently. If a person values their time at less than $9 per hour it would seem foolish for anyone to pay them more for it.

    The reality is that Walmart buys low quality time from low quality workers. That is one of the reasons so many people refuse to spend their money at Walmart.

    The photo in the OP does not make me think Walmart needs to pay more for time, it makes me think that some people need help finding a way to increase their value of their time and sell it at a higher price.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I too would like to see how Sam would run Wal-Mart.
    Ditto for the founders of IBM and HP... Maybe it's
    impossible these days to run a large corporation the way
    these guys started - with good pay, benefits, attempts at
    long term employment...

    Nearest to where I live, Home Depot and Wal-Mart both
    only hire part time, work whenever we say, pay about $8
    or $8.50, and consider you temporary...

    On a somewhat related note, I just noticed that Duluth Trading,
    Dickies, 1791 Jean's (Glenn Beck's company), offer American made jeans.
    The least expensive pair is about $80. 1791 Jeans start at $129.00 per pair.
    Tarriffs and EPA regs, etc.make it very difficult and costly to make clothing here.

    Obviously, market forces change things and companies have to react.
    I do think there is a factor of MBA types becoming executives and focusing
    strictly on maximum profits as they area trained to do.

    As far as the tax loopholes go, most of us take advantage of whatever
    our tax advisors find. There's unintended consequences to a lot of legislation
    and it's up to the citizens and government to put a stop to harmful consequences.

    Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      On a somewhat related note, I just noticed that Duluth Trading,
      Dickies, 1791 Jean's (Glenn Beck's company), offer American made jeans.
      The least expensive pair is about $80. 1791 Jeans start at $129.00 per pair.

      Dan
      Duluth jeans kick a@@ and can be had for around $50. $40 if you wait for their typical 20% coupon.
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  • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
    Why do these "WalMart is Evil" discussions focus solely on WalMart? Don't stores like Target, Meijer, and KMart pay their employees just as little and sell the same sweatshop-made products? Why can't people give those stores some hate too?

    Spread the hate?
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    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
      Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

      Why do these "WalMart is Evil" discussions focus solely on WalMart? Don't stores like Target, Meijer, and KMart pay their employees just as little and sell the same sweatshop-made products? Why can't people give those stores some hate too?

      Spread the hate?
      Because WM is the poster child for bad corporate citizenship.


      BTW, I hear federal lawsuits may be coming soon regarding WM labor practices.


      They've already tangled back in May...

      http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2013/May/13-enrd-611.html
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

      Why do these "WalMart is Evil" discussions focus solely on WalMart? Don't stores like Target, Meijer, and KMart pay their employees just as little and sell the same sweatshop-made products? Why can't people give those stores some hate too?

      Spread the hate?

      They are the most successful. We have a weird obsession in the U.S. of taking joy in conquering the most successful among us.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        It sounds like your issue isn't with WalMart. It's with the government. WalMart uses its attorneys to effectively and efficiently navigate the legal system and tax code in a legal manner. Is a corporation supposed to pay more taxes than legally mandated?

        If WalMart, or anyone else for that matter, is cheating the system, they should be hit with the full force of the law. Until then, it's just good business.
        My father was a true genius at buying the right whiskey and telling
        the right stories to the right people at the right time.

        That hardly made his actions morally acceptable. If we're going to
        blame everything on the government and let the corporations
        off Scott-free because they are playing to the letter of the law,
        then perhaps we need to take serious action to limit the power
        and access of lobbyists, for our own sake.



        Originally Posted by garyv View Post

        They are the most successful. We have a weird obsession in the U.S. of taking joy in conquering the most successful among us.
        Only when they forget their "success" is built on the
        backs of the people they are standing on, and they
        treat those people like crap.

        Other than some funny jokes, I haven't seen many people attempting
        to "conquer" Apple, Berkshire Hathaway, Dell, Allstate... Or, perhaps
        in a more similar arena, Costco?


        History repeats itself, and companies that treat their own people
        the way Wal-Mart does are destined to become kings of the mud.

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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

          That hardly made his actions morally acceptable. If we're going to
          blame everything on the government and let the corporations
          off Scott-free because they are playing to the letter of the law,
          then perhaps we need to take serious action to limit the power
          and access of lobbyists, for our own sake.
          So...penalize companies for...following the law? :confused:

          Yes - if the laws are bad ones, change them, by all means. Lobbyists are a bad thing in so many ways to our political system. But if these companies are indeed following the law, penalizing them is kinda silly. If they're breaking the law that's a different story...

          Personally, the Government and big business share the blame. They are so deeply intertwined it's hard to tell where one stops and the other begins.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            So...penalize companies for...following the law? :confused:
            Nope, not what I said at all? :confused:



            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            Yes - if the laws are bad ones, change them, by all means. Lobbyists are a bad thing in so many ways to our political system. But if these companies are indeed following the law, penalizing them is kinda silly. If they're breaking the law that's a different story...

            Personally, the Government and big business share the blame. They are so deeply intertwined it's hard to tell where one stops and the other begins.
            ^^But you did state my point more clearly [again].
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
              Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

              Nope, not what I said at all? :confused:





              ^^But you did state my point more clearly [again].
              Glad to be of service

              I agree with your sentiment, but when you said:

              and let the corporations off Scott-free because they are playing to the letter of the law

              it implied (to me) that we should not let them off, or penalize them. So I guess I interpreted that wrong...
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

          My father was a true genius at buying the right whiskey and telling the right stories to the right people at the right time.

          That hardly made his actions morally acceptable. If we're going to blame everything on the government and let the corporations
          off Scott-free because they are playing to the letter of the law,
          then perhaps we need to take serious action to limit the power
          and access of lobbyists, for our own sake.
          Mike, I may be a little thick at the moment - it's been a long day - but I'm not getting the correlation between your father and what I said regarding Suzanne's post.

          I'm not blaming the government. My comment was basically that you can't blame a company for legally following the tax code.

          There certainly are situations where morality may trump the law, but paying more tax than you're legal liable is not one of them. Judge Billings Learned Hand said as much:

          "Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of morals is mere cant.
          As for lobbyists, I completely agree.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
            Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

            Mike, I may be a little thick at the moment - it's been a long day - but I'm not getting the correlation between your father and what I said regarding Suzanne's post.
            Apologies, the clarity of mud is my fault [again].
            I was referring to the fact that my father was involved in manipulating
            the "legally mandated" aspects of his business, including taxes.

            It's one thing to navigate the legal system and tax code
            to your advantage. It's quite another to have so much say
            in how the system and tax code itself is formed so that you
            can make sure it is all in your favor.


            uses its attorneys to effectively and efficiently navigate the legal system and tax code in a legal manner. Is a corporation supposed to pay more taxes than legally mandated?




            Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

            Glad to be of service

            I agree with your sentiment, but when you said:

            and let the corporations off Scott-free because they are playing to the letter of the law

            it implied (to me) that we should not let them off, or penalize them. So I guess I interpreted that wrong...

            Yeah, I wasn't very clear. For someone in my line of work
            I am a terrible communicator!

            Corporations play to the letter of the law only after helping
            to create it in their favor. And, when they do actually get
            caught breaking a law, they get a slap on the wrist that
            doesn't discourage them in any way whatsoever... Most often
            the fees are far less than the profits they made from cheating.

            I'm not advocating punishment, which would be a waste anyway.
            Sure, corporations should be able to get away with as much as
            the law allows. But they need to be separate from the law,
            and it needs to be strengthened to allow less.

            They shouldn't be allowed to escape new regulations,
            or to be involved in their creation.
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    • Profile picture of the author LarryC
      Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

      Why do these "WalMart is Evil" discussions focus solely on WalMart? Don't stores like Target, Meijer, and KMart pay their employees just as little and sell the same sweatshop-made products? Why can't people give those stores some hate too?

      Spread the hate?
      True, the same basic model is followed by all those stores. WalMart is just the obvious one to focus on because it's the biggest. And to me, it just feels worse in a WalMart somehow. I occasionally buy something in Target, but I've only stepped foot in WalMart a few times and never plan to again. I admit to having a bias against malls and box stores in general. That's aesthetics, but the economic issues are more objective and measurable.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
      Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

      Why do these "WalMart is Evil" discussions focus solely on WalMart? Don't stores like Target, Meijer, and KMart pay their employees just as little and sell the same sweatshop-made products? Why can't people give those stores some hate too?

      Spread the hate?
      I have heard hate stories on Target and Kmart before.

      For Target: Boycott Target as they refuse to help Veterans and Toys For Tots (which is sponsored by the Marine Corps)

      For Kmart: I think the nickname "Came Apart" says it all.

      I don't believe I have ever heard any hate for Meijer though, hmmm...


      Terra
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Dan,
    The USA made version is I think fairly new and a bit more. Ditto for Dickies: Men's Ballroom 5-Pocket Jeans Made in USA - Duluth Trading
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      Dan,
      The USA made version is I think fairly new and a bit more. Ditto for Dickies: Men's Ballroom 5-Pocket Jeans Made in USA - Duluth Trading

      I stand corrected. Although, their knee-pad jeans are $59.99 and made in the USA. I'll leave the potential jokes alone.
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      • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        I stand corrected. Although, their knee-pad jeans are $59.99 and made in the USA. I'll leave the potential jokes alone.
        Good idea to leave potential jokes alone. Probably would not end well.
        There marketing is funny enough.

        Biz
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
          Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

          Good idea to leave potential jokes alone. Probably would not end well.
          There marketing is funny enough.

          Biz

          I'll have you know, I'm wearing their underwear right now.





          Hmmm...that's probably a bad place to put a winkie face...
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    TMI, Riffle, TMI. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      IMHO, the society (the group) has the right to determine what is a fair wage and impose it on those that conduct business within it.
      By "society" don't you mean "government?" Because "society" would mean a business has a right to offer a job at the wage the job is worth to them, and citizens would have the right to accept or not accept the job.


      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Personally, I'd like to see enough unskilled labor jobs available that employees who don't want to rummage around donation bins to feed their families for Thanksgiving, could leave Walmart in mass and let the corporate execs stock the shelves.
      Me too, but with the mass exodus of manufacturing jobs to cheap labor countries it's going to take some major changes to turn things around. This country shouldn't have ever let the manufacturing base erode to the point is has, IMO.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Me too, but with the mass exodus of manufacturing jobs to cheap labor countries it's going to take some major changes to turn things around. This country shouldn't have ever let the manufacturing base erode to the point is has, IMO.
        That's for sure... not just manufacturing jobs but a large portion of it's IT jobs, service/help desk jobs, you name it. Gee, wonder why there's a shortage of jobs.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post



        Me too, but with the mass exodus of manufacturing jobs to cheap labor countries it's going to take some major changes to turn things around. This country shouldn't have ever let the manufacturing base erode to the point is has, IMO.


        By "society" don't you mean "government?" Because "society" would mean a business has a right to offer a job at the wage the job is worth to them, and citizens would have the right to accept or not accept the job.
        IMHO society via a government has the right to impose standards on businesses - including standards on wages.

        If the society via a governing body declares that all business must pay a minimum wage we business owners have a few choices - including the following.

        1: Continue to operate our businesses.

        2: Stop operating our businesses.

        3: Try to evade the law and pay whatever we want etc.

        4: Leave and start our business in another jurisdiction.

        5: Lobby to change the law.

        I hope my position is clear enough.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

          Man, I'd want to find out what that guys story is. Just out of curiosity. Is he a bit eccentric or mentally ill?
          He's not mentally ill. Eccentric, maybe, hard to say. I've talked to him a handful of times in the 5 years I've lived here. He seems normal enough.

          He works constantly. I've never seen him take his boat out or his vintage autos. He does all the maintenance himself on these properties he owns too, from what I can see. I mean right down to the little things like mowing the yard and shoveling the snow. He used to shovel the snow of the elderly couple who lived next door too, for a fee. I don't know what they paid him but I started doing it for free. When he'd see me come out with my snow blower he'd drop whatever he was doing and go do their walks just to beat me to it. lol

          The guy probably has a fortune socked away.


          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          IMHO society via a government has the right to impose standards on businesses - including standards on wages.
          Thanks for the clarification. Society sounds much more benign than government, don't you think? :rolleyes:
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            In regard to my initial comment... I am more astonished that WM doesn't do something directly as a company to provide a better Thanksgiving for those employees that are in tough straits. Asking their employees to do it seems a bit ... callous.

            I don't think Sam Walton would have approved. At all.

            The rest of this is more complicated than most people are seeing, and will stay that way until global markets have evened out a bit.

            A friend who likes to take simplistic stands told me she would never shop at Walmart because of their overseas labor practices. I replied, "Just what the world needs. More children starving so you can feel morally erect."

            We see people pushing the idea that it's bad to save money by hiring people in countries with lower wages, as we're supposedly "taking advantage of them." But is it really evil to provide someone a higher standard of living and save money for one's business at the same time? But... that takes jobs away from people in higher paid countries, forcing them to work for Walmart, et al.

            That's the globalization problem, in a nutshell. As long as we think about countries, rather than humans, it will continue indefinitely. Corporate behavior is symptomatic, not causal.

            And some of the arguments are missing "the other side." For example, when you talk about their employees getting government subsidies, one could ask: how much more would those people need to get from the government without their Walmart jobs?

            As far as treatment of staff, I suspect that depends a lot on where you live. In NWPA and NEO (at least, east of Cleveland), the customers would openly revolt against a manager publicly berating an employee. In Buffalo, it wouldn't draw much attention. In Cincinnati, with allowances for my more limited experience there, it seems to me management would frown on it.

            In Cleveland, the employees would make you pay.


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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

            He's not mentally ill. Eccentric, maybe, hard to say. I've talked to him a handful of times in the 5 years I've lived here. He seems normal enough.

            He works constantly. I've never seen him take his boat out or his vintage autos. He does all the maintenance himself on these properties he owns too, from what I can see. I mean right down to the little things like mowing the yard and shoveling the snow. He used to shovel the snow of the elderly couple who lived next door too, for a fee. I don't know what they paid him but I started doing it for free. When he'd see me come out with my snow blower he'd drop whatever he was doing and go do their walks just to beat me to it. lol

            The guy probably has a fortune socked away.




            Thanks for the clarification. Society sounds much more benign than government, don't you think? :rolleyes:
            I think society bequeaths government and is ultimately responsible for what the particular government be it local, state or federal does - especially in our society.
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        • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          IMHO society via a government has the right to impose standards on businesses - including standards on wages.

          If the society via a governing body declares that all business must pay a minimum wage we business owners have a few choices - including the following.
          The society via a governing body at one point declared slavery valid and acceptable. That did not make it right.
          The reality is that many times societies through government, or through mob rule may decide something is right when it really is wrong (like when Zimbabwe with 84% support took over the property of all whites, gave it to blacks and pillaged the lives of the minority whites).

          The point of a Republic is that it is supposed to protect private property rights (like those of business owners) against populist opinions that may be wrong since mobs are notoriously easy to manipulate with emotions.

          Regarding those who are claiming that Walmart should do more for the employees...
          Walmart provides wages for people who might be unemployed otherwise.
          Walmart provides a safe environment to many people to work in.
          Walmart provides a return for their investor (you realize most of the stock is owned by other average workers)
          Walmart only has 3.62% profit margin, and that profit is paid out in stocks and dividends to their share holders (which numbers into tens of thousands of people most of whom are average lower-middle class workers).

          And finally, Walmart happily allows its workers to raise donations from each other and shoppers for employees who need additional help but lets spin that and lampoon the company for doing something good.

          What exactly do you want the 'company' to do? Take that profit from their stock holders and give it to someone else? There is no 'boogeyman' Walmart guy who is just swimming around in cash for the heck of it laughing at the employees.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            The point of a Republic is that it is supposed to protect private property rights (like those of business owners) against populist opinions that may be wrong since mobs are notoriously easy to manipulate with emotions.
            Heeeey, now. No fair. You're being clear on the difference between a democracy and a republic.

            You realize, I hope, that you just put the screws to a ton of dumb arguments?


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author hitesh93
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Heeeey, now. No fair. You're being clear on the difference between a democracy and a republic.

              You realize, I hope, that you just put the screws to a ton of dumb arguments?


              Paul
              If sound logic was all it took to end dumb arguments life would be a LOT easier...and forums a lot less popular
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                I am more astonished that WM doesn't do something directly as a company to provide a better Thanksgiving for those employees that are in tough straits.
                One store in Canton, Ohio asked employees to help other employees for the holidays. Have you ever been to Canton? I have. It's an area where people do help others.

                But to soften the blow for its estimated 1 million employees who have to work on Thursday, Nov. 28, the world's largest retailer is going to feed them a traditional Thanksgiving dinner during their shift, give them an extra day's pay, and offer them 25 percent off a future holiday shopping trip.
                What more do you think WM should do?

                On Thanksgiving weekend - you folks need to realize every time you stop in at a gas station or convenience store or grocery store - those people are working over the holiday. If you are watching football games and parades on the holiday - people are working at those events and not all the jobs are big $$$.

                Most of those workers aren't getting extra pay or discounts or anything else. I expect this years "unrest" will be much the same as in the past - a few hundred workers making a big deal while the rest of the million walmart workers do their jobs.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by hitesh93 View Post

            Regarding those who are claiming that Walmart should do more for the employees...
            Walmart provides wages for people who might be unemployed otherwise.
            Walmart provides a safe environment to many people to work in.
            Walmart provides a return for their investor (you realize most of the stock is owned by other average workers)
            Walmart only has 3.62% profit margin, and that profit is paid out in stocks and dividends to their share holders (which numbers into tens of thousands of people most of whom are average lower-middle class workers).

            And finally, Walmart happily allows its workers to raise donations from each other and shoppers for employees who need additional help but lets spin that and lampoon the company for doing something good.

            [b]What exactly do you want the 'company' to do? Take that profit from their stock holders and give it to someone else?[/ b]There is no 'boogeyman' Walmart guy who is just swimming around in cash for the heck of it laughing at the employees.
            Some HERE might say that "The stockholders could afford it. They're RICH!"! On the stock, they DO pay 2.384%(of the current stock price) That is about $6,172,414,400 company wide. If they did not pay that, they, or their employees, would have to pay taxes on it. Walmart is apparently, according to forbes, the worlds largest employer having 2,100,000 employees in 2010! IF they paid the entire stock dividend to employees, that WOULD be about $2939.24/year more, BUT....

            1. Taxes WOULD bite into it.
            2. Their capitalization could likely plummet meaning they would actually have LESS money, and LAYOFFS!
            3. People on retirement would suffer.
            4. Social security could be hit causing taxes to go up.

            But MY GOD! Their workforce is like .6% of the population of the US!

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
    I shop at WalMart and I guess I don't see anybody being treated like crap. The employees don't have any visible scars or bruises and it seems that they are free to leave on their own will. Maybe things are different in the back of a WalMart in the stockroom. That must be where the bad things go down.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

      I shop at WalMart and I guess I don't see anybody being treated like crap. The employees don't have any visible scars or bruises and it seems that they are free to leave on their own will. Maybe things are different in the back of a WalMart in the stockroom.
      Truthfully, other than links to questionable stories, no one really knows how "bad" employees are treated at WM. My guess is really no worse than in ANY typical company (and retail is usually worse than other industries). Some are better than others, but in every company I have ever worked AT or FOR there are ALWAYS people who complain about low wages, how they're treated, the crappy benefits, etc. This is why the WM stories don't really elicit sympathy from me (well, no more so than any other company stories).

      From where I sit, this is nothing new. WM is just louder than most - I guess because the number of employees...
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        Truthfully, other than links to questionable stories, no one really knows how "bad" employees are treated at WM.
        I know three people who work at Walmart. One is the wife of a friend who passed away. She likes it. Another is a guy I used to work with at a paper mill. He's a security guard there. Never heard him complain but he's the type of guy who would keep it to himself if he didn't like it, so I couldn't say if he liked it or not.

        The last one is a neighbor. I have no idea why he works there. He owns about dozen homes in the neighborhood and works at Walmart as a custodian. He doesn't need the money as far as I know. He's got a 4-car garage and has to keep his main car, two work vehicles, and his boat outdoors because his collectible cars fill the garage.

        It doesn't seem like he'd work there if he was mistreated.
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        • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post


          The last one is a neighbor. I have no idea why he works there. He owns about dozen homes in the neighborhood and works at Walmart as a custodian. He doesn't need the money as far as I know. He's got a 4-car garage and has to keep his main car, two work vehicles, and his boat outdoors because his collectible cars fill the garage.

          It doesn't seem like he'd work there if he was mistreated.
          Man, I'd want to find out what that guys story is. Just out of curiosity. Is he a bit eccentric or mentally ill?
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    GOOD NEWS:
    The early European settlers in the Americas (invading other peoples' land, but I'm not going there) and, for the most part, manufactured everything at home. Maybe, some Amish communities still do. Then manufacturing was outsourced to newly established factories in the nation. Then factories were set up abroad while the ones at home closed down.

    Now manufacturing at home is coming back to the Americas (and Europe, Australia yadda yadda yadda). How? Answer:
    3D Printers
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
    As far as how the employees are treated, it has admittedly been
    years since I have step foot inside a Wal-Mart. But I did witness
    verbal abuse from managers toward employees in multiple instances.

    Not firm corrections, not feedback or simply lighting a fire under
    their ass-- Actual verbal abuse, by any standard.

    I've never once seen that kind of behavior from any kind of
    authority figure in any other business other than Wal-Mart
    and Burger King.

    ...Of course, it still goes back to the problem of so many
    people with no marketable skills. If they had a skill of any value,
    they wouldn't be stuck looking for jobs at the bottom of the barrel.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

      As far as how the employees are treated, it has admittedly been
      years since I have step foot inside a Wal-Mart. But I did witness
      verbal abuse from managers toward employees in multiple instances.

      Not firm corrections, not feedback or simply lighting a fire under
      their ass-- Actual verbal abuse, by any standard.

      I've never once seen that kind of behavior from any kind of
      authority figure in any other business other than Wal-Mart
      and Burger King.

      ...Of course, it still goes back to the problem of so many
      people with no marketable skills. If they had a skill of any value,
      they wouldn't be stuck looking for jobs at the bottom of the barrel.
      The WM by us I never heard the workers complain (except when it's very busy) and I never witnessed verbal abuse. But the one here was poorly run and dirty, which is why I stopped going there. And the other reason I stopped going were the shoppers - which were ten times ruder than any employee I dealt with there. I could tell you stories

      WM is like any other business - it has managers that can be very good or very bad. Sounds like the one at the WM you mentioned was a bad one. That manager needs to be fired. I'd say retrained, but dressing down and verbally abusing a worker in public is a very BASIC management no-no and should not be tolerated.

      I suppose you can blame the corporate culture - if that is indeed the corporate culture. It could simply be THAT LOCATIONs culture (bad management).

      There's room for improvement, but I think people go overboard on the other band wagon. (not referring to you there...)
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        The WM by us I never heard the workers complain (except when it's very busy) and I never witnessed verbal abuse.
        What are you saying, that I'm judging every Wal-Mart in the
        world by the ones that I've visited and not considering that
        other stores in other locations may be different?

        haha, probably true. But then again, after the few decades
        that they have had to change things, I would have thought
        that someone would have by now, large corporate environment
        or not.


        yeah, I don't do well on bandwagons. I wonder around in
        circles trying to figure out where I am far too much to follow
        other people, lol
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

          What are you saying, that I'm judging every Wal-Mart in the
          world by the ones that I've visited
          and not considering that
          other stores in other locations may be different?

          haha, probably true. But then again, after the few decades
          that they have had to change things, I would have thought
          that someone would have by now, large corporate environment
          or not.


          yeah, I don't do well on bandwagons. I wonder around in
          circles trying to figure out where I am far too much to follow
          other people, lol
          That would be natural. I did after the incident that made me leave for good. But I complained on the corporate website. After about a month I got a phone call from the district manager asking about my issues and how he could improve so I would return.

          I don't think he liked my answer But I liked the fact that corporate took the time to call me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sweersz
    I have no pity for Walmart employees. If they don't like working there for such little wages as many of them claim, then they can work somewhere else.

    If all unsatisfied Walmart employees quit and there were no other people interested in the open positions due to poor pay, then Walmart would have no other choice but to pay higher wages. It's a simple concept.

    Walmart is a corporation, not a charity case.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    ... and the beat goes on.

    "UFCW union financial analyst John Marshall is sure Walmart is more concerned than they let on about impending Black Friday protests, describing the National Labor Relations Board’s decision as “one of the biggest in years.”

    “It’s not credible to claim the company doesn’t have these vulnerabilities,” he said. “But it’s not surprising that they seek to downplay the significance of worker protest.”

    He described the retailer’s recent Real Walmart campaign highlighting happy associates and decent wages as further evidence of concern over labor issues. “They’re spending money not on advertising low prices, but that it’s a good place to work,” Marshall said. “They want to project this image of compliance.”

    For his part, Lundberg insists it’ll be business as usual on Black Friday — and on Thanksgiving itself, when workers putting in holiday hours will receive what amounts to an extra day of pay. In addition, they’ll be rewarded with a 25% discount on a basket of Walmart food and products."

    Walmart Will Win Black Friday Despite Worker Strikes, Labor Violations And Food Bank Woes - Forbes
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Wow!!

    I'm tempted!


    Wal-Mart Touts $98 TV in Weakest Holiday Season Since


    Decent story about big retailers and their holiday plans.
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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