This Really Needs To Be Addressed

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Greetings,

So, I buy a product on WSO. Very nice product. No complaints.

Immediately after registering I start receiving multiple emails hawking affiliate offers. I write and ask to be removed from the affiliate offer mailings and only mailed information relating to the product that I purchased.

I'm informed that if I want to be removed from what is legal spamming, I will no longer receive information about the product that I paid good money for. There is only one word for that. Insulting.

The problem is, I have purchased over 28 WSO's in the past 4 months. I want you to try and imagine how many affiliate offer emails that produces each day from everyone I purchased from sending me numerous emails on stuff that I have already purchased from the original WSO that actually created the product.

Additionally, if I am going to purchase that product, I am certainly not going to use their affiliate link and allow them to make a single penny as a reward for spamming me. I will track down the original offer and purchase directly from the developer.

All you folks who refuse to segment your lists into purchasers and affiliate offer lists are doing is creating one giant circle-jerk which benefits no one. I guess everyone loves this situation and maybe it's me that is missing the larger picture - but I really don't think so.

I have unsubscribed from all of these mailing and will simply write each developer every week (auto-generated) asking if there are any updates to the product that I purchased. We'll see how they like it when the shoe is on the other foot. Additionally, when I buy future WSO's - IF I DO - the minute I get the first affiliate offering via email, I will simply return the product and ask for a refund.

This year will NOT be like last year.

All WSO producers, LISTEN UP!!! SEGMENT YOUR LISTS IN 2014.

Why punish peeps that purchase your products with incessant mailing about offers that are not yours???

Cheers. - Frank

I wish you all luck with that, but you might be on a mass mailing site. Or get new spammers on a regular bases?

I hope that l am wrong, but if you don't get any new ones, in the next few weeks, you will probably be ok!

Shane

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

I wish you all luck with that, but you might be on a mass mailing site. Or get new spammers on a regular bases?

I hope that l am wrong, but if you don't get any new ones, in the next few weeks, you will probably be ok! Shane

Greetings Shane. No, 100% of the mailings are from the WSO's I have purchased. Nothing extraneous.

I have no hope of anyone changing. Just needed to vent.

Cheers. - Frank

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Horny Devil

Banned 10 years ago

Frank,

What are you doing wasting your valuable time on WSO's in the first place? It's a completely vicious circle, 99% of them are rehashed bullshit from newbies, and the information you're seeking to enhance and improve your online career is freely available . . . if you just look.

Otherwise, you're far better off to narrow down and clearly define your expectations, approach a reputable marketeer who can assist you in that area, and confine all the crap WSO's (and the inevitable subsequent spam that follows) to where it belongs - which is in the trash.

I mean, get real. You read tales of woe connected with WSO's EVERY DAY on here. But they're not going to go away. WF makes far too much money from that section for it to ever happen.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Horny Devil

Frank,

What are you doing wasting your valuable time on WSO's in the first place? It's a completely vicious circle, 99% of them are rehashed bullshit from newbies, ...

What are you talking about? I thrive on rehashed bullshit from newbies!

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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

What are you talking about? I thrive on rehashed bullshit from newbies!

Well, Claude - like I said in my original post, perhaps I'm missing something in relation to the "big picture." Cheers. - Frank
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RobinInTexas 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

What are you talking about? I thrive on rehashed bullshit from newbies!

Ha!!! all WSO's deliver on their promises like showing you how to grow your Online Biz From $0 To $10,000+ A Month
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- BigFrank Banned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by RobinInTexas
  
  Ha!!! all WSO's deliver on their promises like showing you how to grow your Online Biz From $0 To $10,000+ A Month
  
  Link, please. - F.
  
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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Horny Devil

Frank,

What are you doing wasting your valuable time on WSO's in the first place? It's a completely vicious circle, 99% of them are rehashed bullshit from newbies, and the information you're seeking to enhance and improve your online career is freely available . . . if you just look.

Greetings. Most of what I purchased are themes, plugins, graphics package sand other things I can actually use, over time. The only "programs" I have purchased is Barter Arbitrage 2.0, which I have not perused, yet. It too is for a few weeks down the line.

In that mix there was one theme and an associated plugin which I returned and got a no questions asked refund and another product that was not as advertised, but no refund was offered. I was basically accused of wanting to return the product, but I'd still use it. Not a chance. Accuse your customer of being a thief. Nice.

You're far better off to narrow down and clearly define your expectations, approach a reputable marketeer who can assist you in that area, and confine all the crap WSO's (and the inevitable subsequent spam that follows) to where it belongs - which is in the trash.

lol. I hear you. I love the products. I just loathe the incessant circle-jerk spamming. It is beyond ludicrous.

I mean, get real. You read tales of woe connected with WSO's EVERY DAY on here. But they're not going to go away. WF makes far too much money from that section for it to ever happen.

I'm not a sucker for that crap. Honestly, I've been at this long enough to know that I know more than what is contained in the "follow my lead and you'll get rich" offerings. I don't buy any of those and doubt I ever would.

I do appreciate your input, very much.

Cheers. - Frank

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mrdeepee 10 years ago

Well, a good number of them are B***S*** I'll agree but be fair.., more than .01% of them are valuable :-)
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- Mr Bill 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Bill,You mean, like the people who claim we delete all negative comments about WSOs?
  
  No, I'm pro WSO. I'm referring to dumb comments like this...
  
  Originally Posted by mrdeepee
  
  Well, a good number of them are B***S*** I'll agree but be fair.., more than .01% of them are valuable :-)
  
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LarryC

10 years ago

I sympathize, but you're fighting a losing battle. Many people who release WSOs, especially the lower priced ones, are doing it mainly to build a mailing list. I don't think that strategy is even effective anymore (unless you have something truly exceptional -but generic affiliate offers don't qualify), but that's the prevailing business model. On the plus side, it's not hard to unsubscribe. If they don't offer that option, just mark the emails spam.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by LarryC

On the plus side, it's not hard to unsubscribe. If they don't offer that option, just mark the emails spam.

Hi Larry. I hear you, but the problem is, if you unsubscribe you no longer get info on the product that you purchased. I think that is a terrible way to treat customers. Customers should be on a separate list - exclusively for product update info. You can even send me offerings that the developer himself has created. No problem.

Just stop sending me mail about every offering from every Tom, Dick and Harry out there. I did not spend money to be treated like that.

Thanks, again. Cheers. - Frank

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travlinguy

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Hi Larry. I hear you, but the problem is, if you unsubscribe you no longer get info on the product that you purchased. I think that is a terrible way to treat customers. Customers should be on a separate list - exclusively for product update info. You can even send me offerings that the developer himself has created. No problem.

Just stop sending me mail about every offering from every Tom, Dick and Harry out there. I did not spend money to be treated like that.

Thanks, again. Cheers. - Frank

Dude, there is no updated product info. At least, most of the time there isn't. That's just a ploy to get your email and spam the daylights out of you. I'm still getting crap email from WSOs I bought three years ago. I suspect this is all fueled by this ridiculous solo ad mania. These people trade your info back and forth, up and down and all around. Ugh.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by travlinguy

Dude, there is no updated product info. At least, most of the time there isn't.

Agreed. That's 95% true in my situation. I have received update info on a few themes and plugins. Four, maybe. lol

That's just a ploy to get your email and spam the daylights out of you. I'm still getting crap email from WSOs I bought three years ago. I suspect this is all fueled by this ridiculous solo ad mania. These people trade your info back and forth, up and down and all around. Ugh.

If it's not a successful ploy, why do they bother? Perhaps everyone should unsubscribe from every offering. It'll take about a week for them to get the hint.

One question, if I may? You're getting mail from a 3 year old purchase and you have not unsubscribed? That's called masochism.

You can't be that lonely.

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travlinguy

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Agreed. That's 95% true in my situation. I have received update info on a few themes and plugins. Four, maybe. lol
If it's not a successful ploy, why do they bother? Perhaps everyone should unsubscribe from every offering. It'll take about a week for them to get the hint.

One question, if I may? You're getting mail from a 3 year old purchase and you have not unsubscribed? That's called masochism.

You can't be that lonely.

I have unsubbed. That's how pernicious this crap is. These people swap, trade and jockey all over creation. As the robotic voice from the movies once said, "Resistance is futile." Unsubscribe and you still pop up on someone else's list. I mark them all as junk and mass delete them. Unsubbing just tells them you're still alive and kicking and keeps the crap coming, only from different spammers.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by travlinguy

I have unsubbed. That's how pernicious this crap is. These people swap, trade and jockey all over creation. As the robotic voice from the movies once said, "Resistance is futile." Unsubscribe and you still pop up on someone else's list. I mark them all as junk and mass delete them. Unsubbing just tells them you're still alive and kicking and keeps the crap coming, only from different spammers.

OK. I am going to lose them all. The ones I have already cut have slowed the onslaught. I'm going all out. Thanks for the tips. Cheers. - Frank

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Paul Myers

10 years ago

HD,

What are you doing wasting your valuable time on WSO's in the first place? It's a completely vicious circle, 99% of them are rehashed bullshit from newbies

That comment is, to use your own word, bullshit.

You read tales of woe connected with WSO's EVERY DAY on here. But they're not going to go away. WF makes far too much money from that section for it to ever happen.

Speaking as the person who handles more of the actual, reported issues with WSOs than anyone else (with the possible exception of Thomas), rather than second-hand imaginings and unsupported gossip like you've just posted...

Bullshit again.

A: The mods are not even allowed to consider ad fees in making determinations regarding the enforcement of rules. This is a fact which annoys some sellers greatly, as they think we're supposed to give them preferential treatment.

B: The amount of actual, legitimate issues with WSOs is quite small in relation to the number of sales made through that section of the forum.

C: There are maybe 3 people who have any clue just how much cash we've chased away from the advertising sections of this forum over the past couple of years by tightening up the rules and banning the relatively few actual scammers that have been reported.

Note: Unlike you, I have restricted my comments to "reported problems" because I don't like to state things as absolute fact without actually having some facts to back them up. And, again with the possible exception of Thomas, I have more of a fact-based picture of what goes on with the moderating in that section than anyone.

D: "Rehashed" is a meaningless word as used in these sorts of comments. It's outright silly when applied to things like software and graphics, and barely sensible when applied to information.

If someone buys information and already knew it, that's the result of one of two things: A blind ad or careless purchasing. There is a rule in place forbidding the first, so those should be reported if they make it through the approval process. And no-one should be buying blind anyway.

If I buy information which it turns out I already knew, that does not mean I was "scammed," or that there is anything wrong with the product. It means I took a chance on copy that wasn't specific without asking questions, and that isn't anyone's responsibility but mine.

I think this whole line of commentary would be funny if it weren't made with such reckless disregard for the truth.

We have a significant group of advertisers and ex-advertisers who complain that the mods don't do enough to "protect" them from trolls and what-not. But they don't bother reporting comments from non-customers, so they have no idea what the policy actually is. We have sellers who try to get legitimate feedback from paying customers deleted and, outraged when that doesn't happen, run around shouting that the forum doesn't care about them.

We have customers who gripe and moan because we won't let them post slanderous, and quite often profane, comments based on imagined slights.

We have some sellers who have issues that are the result of inexperience, and those usually get sorted quickly. We have some sellers who are playing fast and loose, and those get banned as soon as we're aware of them.

And, coming back to your comments, we have a few people who read the loud complaints of other non-customers (or "buying scammers") and repeat them equally loudly, with nothing to back them up but "Everyone knows it" when everyone doesn't.

I call this last group "roaring sheep."

I'm going to tell you the same thing I tell everyone when they make comments like this: If you have a problem with an offer in any paid section of this forum, report it. Otherwise, you're just repeating unfounded gossip for the sake of looking righteous when you're not.

Frank,

That's a problem, but it's not one we (the mods) have any business being involved in. As long as the emails are the result of an actual purchase or direct opt-in, that's between you and the merchant.

Note that it IS part of the customer experience, so I would personally not delete a comment that said "I bought and immediately started getting ads every day for unrelated products."

I just unsubscribe and don't buy again from people who handle their lists that way.

Paul

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Frank,

That's a problem, but it's not one we (the mods) have any business being involved in. As long as the emails are the result of an actual purchase or direct opt-in, that's between you and the merchant.

I totally agree. That's why I have never formally complained to staff. I understand that it is an organic method of the way they sell. I was just voicing my annoyance.

Note that it IS part of the customer experience, so I would personally not delete a comment that said "I bought and immediately started getting ads every day for unrelated products."

I just unsubscribe and don't buy again from people who handle their lists that way.

I'm there, but am not happy about the fact that if I unsubscribe, I'm cut-off from the developer for update info. As stated previously, that doesn't happen often so unsubscribing is worth the risk. The emails have almost totally stopped. I'll just look at the positive and be happy.

Please be aware that I took full responsibility for my one regrettable purchase. It was made on emotion rather than on logic or a full understanding of what the "offer" was. I asked for a refund, it was denied and I let it drop. Totally my fault and the only person I was P.O.'d at was myself. I figure if someone needs my $49 that badly, they are more than welcome to it and I just move on. Life is short and I can make $49 in the time I would spend trying to pound someone into submission to return my money. If you have to ask more than once, then you are beating a dead horse, IMO.

I truly hope I was not out of line. I'm rather new here and not looking to start trouble. That's the complete antithesis of my style.

Thanks for your input on this subject.

Cheers. - Frank

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Paul Myers

10 years ago

Frank,

If it sounded like I was criticizing you, I apologize. Not my intent at all, as I completely agree with you on the issue. Even if I didn't, you made your points in a civil and sensible fashion.

As far as the denied refund, please PM me the details. Link to the offer, and the date of the order and the refund request.

People get nuked here for failure to honor a posted refund policy.

Paul

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Frank,

If it sounded like I was criticizing you, I apologize. Not my intent at all, as I completely agree with you on the issue.

No, I did not feel that way at all. You were warm and fuzzy. lol

Even if I didn't, you made your points in a civil and sensible fashion.

That's always my aim, even when I'm venting.

As far as the denied refund, please PM me the details. Link to the offer, and the date of the order and the refund request.

People get nuked here for failure to honor a posted refund policy.

Again, totally my fault. I breezed through the copy without ever realizing that there was no refund policy stated. That was the first time that I had encountered that for anything that I have ever purchased, here.

The seller did nothing wrong. I did by not slowing down and making sure I knew what I was getting into. If I thought that the seller in any way represented the product in a less than honest fashion I would feel obligated to bring it to your attention lest someone else would get snookered by my failing to do so.

I always take responsibility for my own mistakes. I'm cool with the outcome.

I greatly appreciate your offer to look into it, though. That's extremely reassuring, especially in light of the fact that I know how they keep you hopping, here.

Cheers. - Frank

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Dennis Gaskill

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

The seller did nothing wrong. I did by not slowing down and making sure I knew what I was getting into. If I thought that the seller in any way represented the product in a less than honest fashion I would feel obligated to bring it to your attention lest someone else would get snookered by my failing to do so.

I always take responsibility for my own mistakes. I'm cool with the outcome.

Good attitude and outlook. You're a good customer, the kind most of us like to have. Thumbs up!

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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Good attitude and outlook. You're a good customer, the kind most of us like to have. Thumbs up!

Well, a good customer would have done his due diligence and would never had to annoy you with a refund request in the first place, but I hear what you are saying. TY for the kind words. Cheers. - Frank
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- Paul Myers 10 years ago
  
  Bill,
  
  I get so sick of people "re-hashing" the same old false statistics about WSOs. It makes them look daft and instantly disolves any credibility they had.
  
  You mean, like the people who claim we delete all negative comments about WSOs?
  
  Anyone who states that as a "fact" can be discounted immediately as either a moron who can't read or an outright and deliberate liar. It takes no more than a few minutes to go through the ends of some longer threads in that section to see that it's not even close to an accurate portrayal.
  
  These are people who enjoy being mindlessly destructive. I'm done with giving them rope here. One of my decisions for this year is that those people don't get any more rope than is needed to hang them. By whatever hurts the most.
  
  As the hungry buzzard said to his buzzard buddy: Patience my ... aunt Fanny.
  
  That includes the deluded dipweeds who think the mods have some sort of obligation to allow themselves to be libeled in this forum in return for their efforts to keep it useful.
  
  Newsflash, knuckleheads: The mods don't get a dime from those ad fees you keep bringing up. Every minute every one of us spends on moderating is a minute that we could otherwise spend on something more profitable and productive than arguing with overaged children who don't know how to interact in adult society.
  
  We don't owe you a thing. Including the "right" to malign us simply because you feel like kicking the cat.
  
  No, I'm not bitter. I'm not even angry. I've simply looked at the situation and concluded that the net is no longer new enough that the most basic norms of civil behavior should be treated as "novel" or "beyond the newbie's experience."
  
  If this confuses you, (the generic 'you,' and not you personally, Bill), I recommend that you go to Amazon and purchase a copy of a book called "The No Asshole Rule," by Robert Sutton, Ph.D. Then, when it shows up in a few days, read it.
  
  The Kindle version is under $10, but it's well worth the cost of a hardbound copy. You'll read it more than once.
  
  As I said in one of my infrequent tweets, "Honesty does not require brutality. Saying you're 'brutally honest' is usually just an excuse for being a jerk."
  
  Paul
  
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  Paul Myers 10 years ago
  
  And to put this back in the spirit of The Lounge, and express my thoughts for those folks who may have a problem with the new position I'm taking on snarky comments about the mods here, I offer this Blake Shelton tune, which pre-emptively sums up my response.
  
  Blake Shelton - Kiss My Country Ass (Official...
  
  (There's a reason it says 'redneck' under my name...)
  
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Mr Bill

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

...second-hand imaginings and unsupported gossip...

D: "Rehashed" is a meaningless word as used in these sorts of comments. It's outright silly when applied to things like software and graphics, and barely sensible when applied to information.

If someone buys information and already knew it, that's the result of one of two things: A blind ad or careless purchasing. There is a rule in place forbidding the first, so those should be reported if they make it through the approval process. And no-one should be buying blind anyway.

If I buy information which it turns out I already knew, that does not mean I was "scammed," or that there is anything wrong with the product. It means I took a chance on copy that wasn't specific without asking questions, and that isn't anyone's responsibility but mine.

I think this whole line of commentary would be funny if it weren't made with such reckless disregard for the truth...

...And, coming back to your comments, we have a few people who read the loud complaints of other non-customers (or "buying scammers") and repeat them equally loudly, with nothing to back them up but "Everyone knows it" when everyone doesn't.

I call this last group "roaring sheep."

Paul, I 100% agree and so well put. I get so sick of people "re-hashing" the same old false statistics about WSOs. It makes them look daft and instantly disolves any credibility they had. I've bought hundreds of them and they've all taught me something. I took action on just one of them and made many times my investment back in the whole lot.

Frank, I 100% agree with you too. I once got THREE affiliate offers the same day as a purchase from a VERY well known Warrior who treated me like a piece of list meat. It's such a wasted opportunity when I could have become a lifelong loyal customer.

There's one WSO seller who I bought a mobile product from over a year ago - not one single sales email. Every email he sends (he's such a rockstar) has something very valuable or very cool or very helpful either shared or linked to - never once has that been a product to buy from his affiliate link. Not once. I've even emailed him to tell him it's ok to send an offer now - I trust him. He replied politely saying "glad you enjoy my list and thanks for your permission to sell you something". He still never has. That's very rare and a lesson for all.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr Bill

Frank, I 100% agree with you too. I once got THREE affiliate offers the same day as a purchase from a VERY well known Warrior who treated me like a piece of list meat. It's such a wasted opportunity when I could have become a lifelong loyal customer.

Well, I'm kinda new at all this, so I guess I was caught offguard by the onslaught. lol

There's one WSO seller who I bought a mobile product from over a year ago - not one single sales email. Every email he sends (he's such a rockstar) has something very valuable or very cool or very helpful either shared or linked to - never once has that been a product to buy from his affiliate link. Not once. I've even emailed him to tell him it's ok to send an offer now - I trust him. He replied politely saying "glad you enjoy my list and thanks for your permission to sell you something". He still never has. That's very rare and a lesson for all.

I believe I know precisely whom you are referring to. I'm sure of it. When people are successful selling their own products they should not need to bother with hawking the wares of others. He has a first-class product and when I asked him on the 26th of the month if he could wait until I got my VA check on the 1st, he sent me a free copy of his product. Who does that? People that care more about other people than they do money.

Now, that being said, I don't handle charity well (few vets do) and on the first day that I actually use the product, I will pay him and join the program that he offers. That both rewards his graciousness and keeps my karma intact. Also, that's how evangelists are created.

Additionally, that RAOK forced me reflect on my own modus operandi to see if I am doing my small part to help others along the way. There are good people in the world and from perusing many hundreds of posts on WF, I'm sure that there are many here, also. You just need to take the time to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Thanks for your comments. Cheers. - Frank

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Horny Devil

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

HD

Bullshit again.

Note: Unlike you, I have restricted my comments to "reported problems" because I don't like to state things as absolute fact without actually having some facts to back them up. And, again with the possible exception of Thomas, I have more of a fact-based picture of what goes on with the moderating in that section than anyone.

Really can't be bothered responding to every element of your post because it's bullshit. To quote your words: you say you have a "fact-based picture" of what goes on. Maybe in the wonderland of WF you do. Certainly not in the wider world of the www. Do you EVER take the time to read the numerous grievances (adding daily) regarding the many thousands (probably more) of total crap WSO that THIS forum exposes people to. You know it's there, and you choose to ignore it.

Before you come out with the old chestnut that buyers should be aware, and it's their responsibility to take due diligence, think just for one minute that the day will come when you realise that you simply cannot keep giving carte blanche to "wankers" offering "shit" and scamming people. Something has to change.

In the real world scammers would be prosecuted. In WF world buyers are told to "beware". Huh.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

People get nuked here for failure to honor a posted refund policy.

People get nuked here for posting a comment the mod(s) take exception to. Even if they're right.

Originally Posted by Mr Bill

Paul, I 100% agree and so well put. I get so sick of people "re-hashing" the same old false statistics about WSOs. It makes them look daft and instantly disolves any credibility they had. I've bought hundreds of them and they've all taught me something.

I rest my case.

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Mr Bill

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Horny Devil

I rest my case.

What case did I prove for you? Don't drag me into you warped view - I'm proof that your view is irrational and distorted. I suppose your the type of person who would also blame a bookshop for a bad book? :rolleyes:

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Horny Devil

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr Bill

What case did I prove for you? Don't drag me into you warped view - I'm proof that your view is irrational and distorted. I suppose your the type of person who would also blame a bookshop for a bad book? :rolleyes:

You just carry on buying your WSO's, Bill. Great stuff.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

I normally unsubscribe after awhile if there are no updates. It's a rare thing that they ever update the product. Only occasionally have I had a plugin updated. The fact is, once you are a customer, they do have a legal right to "keep in touch." Is it spam? Not legally, but mostly ... yes. I have no interests in their affiliate offers, but I imagine they make at least as much money if not more from shilling crap than they do from the original product.

Sometimes, rarely (I'm on the list of two of these, maybe three), one of the vendors only push some really excellent products. I stay on those lists and buy if interested, if not, just delete it. Some of the sellers are committed to promoting quality offers only.

You can do two things. Unsubscribe or stop buying WSOs. It ain't going to change.

Thanks
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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I normally unsubscribe after awhile if there are no updates. It's a rare thing that they ever update the product. Only occasionally have I had a plugin updated. The fact is, once you are a customer, they do have a legal right to "keep in touch." Is it spam? Not legally, but mostly ... yes. I have no interests in their affiliate offers, but I imagine they make at least as much money if not more from shilling crap than they do from the original product.

Sometimes, rarely (I'm on the list of two of these, maybe three), one of the vendors only push some really excellent products. I stay on those lists and buy if interested, if not, just delete it. Some of the sellers are committed to promoting quality offers only.

You can do two things. Unsubscribe or stop buying WSOs. It ain't going to change.

Hi Suzanne. Thanks for your input. Greatly appreciated. Unfortunately, I am compelled to agree with ever word you have written.

BTW - please check your WSO Ecommerce thread. I asked a question, there.

Cheers. - Frank

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Some producers do divide their lists into two, one for updates and the other for product news which one voluntarily opts into or not.

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Mr Bill

10 years ago

Haha, the funniest thing here is that you think you appear smart by posting inane comments like that. It's abundantly clear (from that comment alone) that the opposite is true. What do you know about me? Nothing. Stick to amusing yourself with childish conspiracy theories.

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Horny Devil

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr Bill

Haha, the funniest thing here is that you think you appear smart by posting inane comments like that. It's abundantly clear (from that comment alone) that the opposite is true. What do you know about me? Nothing. Stick to amusing yourself with childish conspiracy theories.

I quoted you, supporting your comments. You chose to deride me.

I don't know you, before this thread, but you chose this route . . . not me.

People in glass houses . . .

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Mr Bill

10 years ago

No you didn't. You took my personal experience in the topic and turned it around and upside down to suit your argument - not mine.

I don't live in a glass house. I have no idea what you're talking about - do you?

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Paul Myers 10 years ago

HD,

I had forgotten about this, until a post in main discussion reminded me of it. I'll get to that in a minute.

If you look at what I actually posted, you'll note that I said I had a better factual view of the moderating of offers in the WSO section than anyone, except maybe Thomas. I didn't say I knew everything anyone ever said on some other site. That would be both impossible and unproductive.

We cannot tell people they can't sell information that's already been sold, unless it's a copyright issue. We cannot screen products in advance. The time and expertise limitations make that impossible. I don't believe we have any mods at the level of handling WSO issues who are, for example, any sort of expert in SEO.

Now, to the post from earlier today...

A gentleman reported a seller late Monday evening for failure to deliver. More precisely, the guy delivered the product, but the customer wasn't getting the promised results. (There's room for argument on both sides of that instance, because the customer hadn't completed the process, but we'll go with his side of things.)

I approached the seller and, among other things, he said he'd refund the customer. I left that part alone, assuming he would do what he said. He seems eager to keep his account here.

This afternoon, the same customer posted a rant in main discussion about how awful we are, and how we ignored his report. (Factually inaccurate, but I didn't CC him on the PMs, so he didn't know that.) Along with his rant, he linked to one of those blog entries saying how terrible the forum is, and how the mods are ignoring scammers. The blogger named one of the folks we supposedly ignore.

Turns out the guy is right about one thing: The guy he named is a serial scammer. Beyond that, he's almost completely wrong.

In late 2012, one of the members came to us with specific details about what the person in question was doing. We immediately started deleting his offers and warned him to stop. (It wasn't clear at that point whether it was a deliberate scam or just a business deal that didn't work out.) I told him not to post those offers here again.

He reworded things a bit and put it in the paid classified section, with a bait and switch built in. When we removed those (based on reports from the same member) and told him he couldn't advertise here at all, he screamed for a bit and then went back to the JV section. This time, he started creating new accounts under other names. We banned over a dozen of those in a few days, and finally put that entire section of the forum under active pre-moderation. Meaning, posts have to be approved by me before becoming visible. We also warned people about that specific type of offer, and barred anything in the JV section that asks responders for cash up front.

In addition, in order to make the whackamole game less attractive for him and the other serial types, we instituted a 50 post minimum for JVs to even be considered for approval.

The difference: One fellow posted a rant on his own blog, replete with factually incorrect accusations. That accomplished nothing useful.

The other came to us with specifics, and we acted, in a big way, to remove the problem child from the forum. I spend time on that every day.

The dude still creates new accounts and tries to push his scam via PMs, and we hunt those down on a regular basis. It's impossible to always know who's behind an account when anyone can use proxies and free email addresses and start PMing people, though. That's why I think PMs should be restricted to paying members only.

The blogger also waved around the "they delete posts" complaint. Given how inaccurate his blog entry was, it isn't surprising that he'd have posts removed. And it's not as though Rule #1 is anything new or secret.

So, no. I don't pay a lot of attention to random posts on other sites, filled with vague or unverifiable complaints. I pay a lot of attention to reports that are made through the system here and actually provide details. And Thomas takes posts through the help desk, which you do not need to have an account here to use, just as seriously.

We don't just sit back and leave people to their own devices, with a casual "buyer beware" attitude. We do recommend that people use their own good sense with offers, obviously, because even the best offer may be completely useless to one or another person.

you simply cannot keep giving carte blanche to "wankers" offering "shit" and scamming people.

We never have.

We do make a distinction, though, between vague terms like "offering shit" and actually meaningful terms like "scamming." A lot of the screamers don't. You would be absolutely amazed at how many of the allegations of scamming turn out to be "I already knew this" or "it takes too much work" when you push for details.

An example might be useful.

If I go into a hardware store and buy a 600-piece tool set for $3.99, I should know I'm not getting Klein quality. That's on me. That's a "buyer beware" situation.

If the same tool set says "Lifetime replacement warranty" and a tool breaks, that's a customer service issue. The label it earns depends on the handling of the situation by the seller.

If the same set is labeled "Professional grade. Withstands 600 pounds of torque" and one breaks when Granny uses it in a craft project, that's scamming.

The first we leave alone, and that's the source of the majority of the complaints I've seen, on or off the board. Well, the majority that aren't completely without reference, or people just repeating what they've heard others say.

The second we watch, to see how they're handled. Our response depends on theirs.

The third gets offers closed and sellers banned.

I have never claimed there aren't scammers sneaking in. I do suggest, however, that the percentage of offers that are actual scams or real problems is much closer to 1% than to 99.xx%.

I just looked through the first two pages of WSOs, and can see 3 people about whom we've had meaningful complaints. All 3 were in the second category above, and all 3 have been warned to clean up their processes. All 3 also have significant positive reviews from non-affiliate customers, so we know the issues are service-based and not anything sinister.

Aside: Okay. This is ironic. Since I started this post, the guy who posted the comment here about how we ignored his report and the refund issue also went into a WSO thread and accused the seller of false advertising. Turns out, he simply misunderstood a small part of the ad. It was an understandable confusion, given the circumstances, but it's a great example of why we ask people to use the report post function rather than making public accusations.

I pointed this out to him and asked him not to keep making accusations like that. I think that's reasonable, since it was his second mistaken claim of the kind within a few hours. His response? He told me not to give him any of my "crap" today.

It's okay for him to run around publicly accusing people of fraud, but it's not okay to privately ask him to be careful about doing that.

He wants us to protect his interests, but no-one else's. You have to wonder about that.

Paul
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socialentry

Banned 10 years ago

Yes I am receiving all kind of spam also

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lcombs

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Greetings,

So, I buy a product on WSO. Very nice product. No complaints.

Immediately after registering I start receiving multiple emails hawking affiliate offers. I write and ask to be removed from the affiliate offer mailings and only mailed information relating to the product that I purchased.

I'm informed that if I want to be removed from what is legal spamming, I will no longer receive information about the product that I paid good money for. There is only one word for that. Insulting.

The problem is, I have purchased over 28 WSO's in the past 4 months. I want you to try and imagine how many affiliate offer emails that produces each day from everyone I purchased from sending me numerous emails on stuff that I have already purchased from the original WSO that actually created the product.

Additionally, if I am going to purchase that product, I am certainly not going to use their affiliate link and allow them to make a single penny as a reward for spamming me. I will track down the original offer and purchase directly from the developer.

All you folks who refuse to segment your lists into purchasers and affiliate offer lists are doing is creating one giant circle-jerk which benefits no one. I guess everyone loves this situation and maybe it's me that is missing the larger picture - but I really don't think so.

I have unsubscribed from all of these mailing and will simply write each developer every week (auto-generated) asking if there are any updates to the product that I purchased. We'll see how they like it when the shoe is on the other foot. Additionally, when I buy future WSO's - IF I DO - the minute I get the first affiliate offering via email, I will simply return the product and ask for a refund.

This year will NOT be like last year.

All WSO producers, LISTEN UP!!! SEGMENT YOUR LISTS IN 2014.

Why punish peeps that purchase your products with incessant mailing about offers that are not yours???

Cheers. - Frank

Call the seller out by name.
His/her tactics are highly unethical and they
deserve to be exposed.
This is akin to "forced continuity".
A tactic devised and used extensively by Mike Filsaime.

I started IM in 2003.
I have dealt with most of the "Name" Imers.
I can tell you the honest ethical ones, and the scammers.

The best info I can give you is to report them to their AR
provider, and the BBB.

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MikeAmbrosio

10 years ago

Originally Posted by lcombs

Call the seller out by name.
His/her tactics are highly unethical and they
deserve to be exposed.
This is akin to "forced continuity".
A tactic devised and used extensively by Mike Filsaime.

I started IM in 2003.
I have dealt with most of the "Name" Imers.
I can tell you the honest ethical ones, and the scammers.

The best info I can give you is to report them to their AR
provider, and the BBB.

Um... not really. He used it extensively, but I know first hand that he started using it after seeing how well it worked for many other marketers. He didn't devise it. It was being WIDELY used when he jumped on that band wagon.

And when it went "out of fashion" in the IM niche, he stopped using FORCED continuity.

I was there...

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Greetings Folks. I have spent everyday since my original post unsubscribing to every email that I have received that is not directly associated with the product I originally purchased. The emails have slowed to a trickle.

This morning I get an email from the developer of a product that I have not yet used, but have every intention of doing so soon. Still, it was 5 AM, I'm always in a pissy mood at 5 AM so I decided to unsubscribe.

I click the "Unsubscribe" button and lo and behold, what do I see but the following message.
================================================== ====

Please Read This Before You Unsubscribe.

Your email address is the only medium I have to notify you of any plugin updates, so please, before you unsubscribe consider joining the "Just Updates" notification email list.

Subscribers of the "Just Updates" email list will ONLY receive emails about the G-Font plugin updates, blog posts and also early bird access of my upcoming products.

And don't worry; you'll be automatically unsubscribed from the email list you're currently on.

================================================== =====

Kudos to Alex at G-Font Plugin for doing what any seller would do to treat their customers in a caring fashion. The man obviously has enough belief in the merits and value of his own product that he does not see the need to endlessly hawk the wares of others. I'm extremely impressed by the man's conduct and I will spend every day evangelizing for him. Additionally, the product actually is very good.

Now, I know that the powers that be have more than enough to keep their hands full, BUT if I ran this place I would do two things to make life better for anyone making a purchase promoted here. They are:

1. Make every seller state clearly in their offering that people who buy the product will receive emails from the seller that pitch affiliate offers that are NOT their own work product.

2. The seller must give every purchaser the opportunity to choose between two distinct list:

(a) I'm a masochist. Send me all the email you want about any piece of crap on the planet.

(b) I have a real life. Only send emails about the crap I bought from you.

This problem can be eliminated in 24 hours if the Admin informs every seller that doing so is a mandatory requirement to offer anything for sale on this site.

Screw their "list building." Is that the purpose of this site? Perhaps in the minds of many, but I think not. There is not a single seller that utilizes this site that would stop selling here if this requirement was put in place. We all know that.

If Alex can do this for his customers, I see no reason why the rest of the sellers could not do the same.

I understand that I may not have a clue as to how things are supposed to work here and I will be most interested to see the comments going forward.

Paul - save us!!! It's a new year. Life is change. I know you look for ways every day to make what goes on here better for all involved. Here's an opportunity to erase a pox on our daily lives and force your sellers to fly right.

I realize I'm a lonely voice crying out in the wilderness. Well, it may be a dirty job but someone has to do it. If anyone agrees with me, voice your concerns. If not, I'm quite content to crawl back under my rock never to show my face in broad daylight, again.

@lcombs - Call them out by name? OK? Almost every damn one of them. That's easier than any list I could compile. All but one or two have done it to me.

@MikeAmbrosio - So, you're telling me that you tried once, years ago and stopped complaining when you didn't achieve instant success? And you consider yourself a "Warrior?" Ha!

Success in anything does not come that easy folks. Take a poll. Let's see what people think. That way Paul will have pertinent data to help persuade him to give my suggestion serious consideration. I can't think of a single valid reason how it might be a detriment to anyone to initiate this into the rules for selling, here. Can anyone else?

Thanks for listening. Cheers. - Frank

P.S. Buy the G-Font plugin. Help support ethical sellers.

Thanks
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MikeAmbrosio

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Greetings Folks. I have spent everyday since my original post unsubscribing to every email that I have received that is not directly associated with the product I originally purchased. The emails have slowed to a trickle.

This morning I get an email from the developer of a product that I have not yet used, but have every intention of doing so soon. Still, it was 5 AM, I'm always in a pissy mood at 5 AM so I decided to unsubscribe.

I click the "Unsubscribe" button and lo and behold, what do I see but the following message.
================================================== ====

Please Read This Before You Unsubscribe.

Your email address is the only medium I have to notify you of any plugin updates, so please, before you unsubscribe consider joining the "Just Updates" notification email list.

Subscribers of the "Just Updates" email list will ONLY receive emails about the G-Font plugin updates, blog posts and also early bird access of my upcoming products.

And don't worry; you'll be automatically unsubscribed from the email list you're currently on.

================================================== =====

Kudos to Alex at G-Font Plugin for doing what any seller would do to treat their customers in a caring fashion. The man obviously has enough belief in the merits and value of his own product that he does not see the need to endlessly hawk the wares of others. I'm extremely impressed by the man's conduct and I will spend every day evangelizing for him. Additionally, the product actually is very good.

Now, I know that the powers that be have more than enough to keep their hands full, BUT if I ran this place I would do two things to make life better for anyone making a purchase promoted here. They are:

1. Make every seller state clearly in their offering that people who buy the product will receive emails from the seller that pitch affiliate offers that are NOT their own work product.

2. The seller must give every purchaser the opportunity to choose between two distinct list:

(a) I'm a masochist. Send me all the email you want about any piece of crap on the planet.

(b) I have a real life. Only send emails about the crap I bought from you.

This problem can be eliminated in 24 hours if the Admin informs every seller that doing so is a mandatory requirement to offer anything for sale on this site.

Screw their "list building." Is that the purpose of this site? Perhaps in the minds of many, but I think not. There is not a single seller that utilizes this site that would stop selling here if this requirement was put in place. We all know that.

If Alex can do this for his customers, I see no reason why the rest of the sellers could not do the same.

I understand that I may not have a clue as to how things are supposed to work here and I will be most interested to see the comments going forward.

Paul - save us!!! It's a new year. Life is change. I know you look for ways every day to make what goes on here better for all involved. Here's an opportunity to erase a pox on our daily lives and force your sellers to fly right.

I realize I'm a lonely voice crying out in the wilderness. Well, it may be a dirty job but someone has to do it. If anyone agrees with me, voice your concerns. If not, I'm quite content to crawl back under my rock never to show my face in broad daylight, again.

@lcombs - Call them out by name? OK? Almost every damn one of them. That's easier than any list I could compile. All but one or two have done it to me.

@MikeAmbrosio - So, you're telling me that you tried once, years ago and stopped complaining when you didn't achieve instant success? And you consider yourself a "Warrior?" Ha!

Success in anything does not come that easy folks. Take a poll. Let's see what people think. That way Paul will have pertinent data to help persuade him to give my suggestion serious consideration. I can't think of a single valid reason how it might be a detriment to anyone to initiate this into the rules for selling, here. Can anyone else?

Thanks for listening. Cheers. - Frank

P.S. Buy the G-Font plugin. Help support ethical sellers.

Ah, you're one of those...you read a post and assign your own meaning to it then respond.

No thanks.

I was just telling you what I experienced and what I did. Back when I started, SPAM wasn't even a known term yet.

You are right about one thing though...your mood...

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Ah, you're one of those...you read a post and assign your own meaning to it then respond.

No thanks.

I was just telling you what I experienced and what I did. Back when I started, SPAM wasn't even a known term yet.

You are right about one thing though...your mood...

Ah, you're one of those...you read a post, ignore it's main message and only respond to the part where you feel that you are being attacked. lol

Well, I do have a 5th grade reading comprehension level. If there was something in your post that was beyond my grasp I have no problem with you talking down to me to point out what went over my head. I live to learn.

Just sayin' . . . . . . .

Cheers. - Frank

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MikeAmbrosio

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Well, I do have a 5th grade reading comprehension level. If there was something in your post that was beyond my grasp I have no problem with you talking down to me to point out what went over my head. I live to learn.

Just sayin' . . . . . . .

Cheers. - Frank

Well Frank, my post was not meant to be anything other than relaying what I did all those years ago - and what works for ME. Not what you should do.

Do whatever you want, but if this is how you respond to feedback, perhaps you shouldn't post your rants.

Just sayin'....

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Well Frank, my post was not meant to be anything other than relaying what I did all those years ago - and what works for ME. Not what you should do.

Got it. I was pointing out that a more robust approach to any issue is generally required to affect change.

Do whatever you want,

Thank you, ever so much.

but if this is how you respond to feedback, perhaps you shouldn't post your rants.

Fortunately, that's not your call.

Cheers. - Frank

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MikeAmbrosio

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Got it. I was pointing out that a more robust approach to any issue is generally required to affect change.
Thank you, ever so much.
Fortunately, that's not your call.

Cheers. - Frank

Give me strength to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, Courage to change the things which should be changed, and the Wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.

I classified this as a "cannot change" a long time ago. With the onslaught of newcomers that enter this "wild west" called the internet every day, I have decided that the approach I took was the best way to change - myself. I understand that I cannot change all those marketers out there including the ones who have not even started yet. For my own serenity (and sanity) I send them all to one email list.

You want to keep beating your head against the wall, that's your prerogative. I'd rather spend that valuable time elsewhere.

You have fun with that though.

Edit:

What you are all up in arms about is not new. You commented (below) about people accepting what comes down the pike. I think those that already had this futile battle just got tired of the battle. It's like trying to stop a flood with a teabag.

As an FYI, I used to be very vocal and active on this subject. I used to have a site called Clean Up Your Inbox where I gave away a free report with tips on how to keep spam from your email (still own the domain I think).

I took part in the MULTITUDE of debates right on this forum that have sprung up over the 14+ years I have been here. I unsubscribed, I complained to the list owners, I complained to a few ISP's even. You know what it accomplished?

Nothing.

My inbox continued to get loaded with crap until I learned how to use spam filters. And also learned to send lists I really had very little interest in to a separate inbox.

I feel your pain on this. I really do. Frankly, I would not have bothered taking this further but for your comment to me above: And you consider yourself a "Warrior?" Ha!

So I will end my end of this conversation now by simply saying...

Good luck in your fight.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Give me strength to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, Courage to change the things which should be changed, and the Wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.

The prayer of the weak and hopeless.

I classified this as a "cannot change" a long time ago. With the onslaught of newcomers that enter this "wild west" called the internet every day, I have decided that the approach I took was the best way to change - myself. I understand that I cannot change all those marketers out there including the ones who have not even started yet. For my own serenity (and sanity) I send them all to one email list.

My serenity stems from my insanity. I'm serenely crazed. Hey, it works for me. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid and I actually do learn, hence, I will follow your lead and take that approach to the matter. I'm not one for beating a dead horse, but I'm not going to stop beating it until I'm sure that sucker is really dead.

You want to keep beating your head against the wall, that's your prerogative. I'd rather spend that valuable time elsewhere.

I agree with that 100%. It's something that I preach to others on a daily basis. Need to start following my own advice a bit more.

You have fun with that though.

Fun for the feeble minded. :rolleyes:

Cheers. - Frank

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MikeAmbrosio

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

The prayer of the weak and hopeless.
My serenity stems from my insanity. I'm serenely crazed. Hey, it works for me. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid and I actually do learn, hence, I will follow your lead and take that approach to the matter. I'm not one for beating a dead horse, but I'm not going to stop beating it until I'm sure that sucker is really dead.
I agree with that 100%. It's something that I preach to others on a daily basis. Need to start following my own advice a bit more.
Fun for the feeble minded. :rolleyes:

Cheers. - Frank

Ah, you do have a sense of humor...

I added to my post above, as an FYI.

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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Ah, you do have a sense of humor.

Yeah. I'm on my third pacemaker/defibrillator. I have a great sense of humor, especially since my cardiologist said I'd never see my second. Now, he's a funny man. I'm not sure if he considered it humorous when I told him that I would live long enough to piss on his grave. All I know is that I actually do laugh out loud every time I think about it.

Cheers. - Frank
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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

I feel your pain on this. I really do. Frankly, I would not have bothered taking this further but for your comment to me above: And you consider yourself a "Warrior?" Ha!

lol That's just the Vietnam vet in me, speaking. I'm not still fighting that war, but I face each day with what got me through the Tet Offensive of 1968.

So I will end my end of this conversation now by simply saying...

Good luck in your fight.

No. The fight is over, but I did not surrender. I simply accept, as Bill Rattleshaft put it, that "Discretion is the better part of valor." The two words that are not in my vocabulary are, "can't" and "quit."

Cheers. - Frank

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MikeAmbrosio

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

lol That's just the Vietnam vet in me, speaking. I'm not still fighting that war, but I face each day with what got me through the Tet Offensive of 1968.
No. The fight is over, but I did not surrender. I simply accept, as Bill Rattleshaft put it, that "Discretion is the better part of valor." The two words that are not in my vocabulary are, "can't" and "quit."

Cheers. - Frank

...which is EXACTLY what I was trying to say.

BTW - I found that report I used to give away. It is from 2005. LOL - not even sure how much is even relevant anymore:

http://www.cleanupyourinbox.com/uplo...pyourinbox.pdf

Disclaimer: I did not actually write this, even though I say I did in the report. It was one of my first PLR projects. I did, however, edit it quite a bit.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

...which is EXACTLY what I was trying to say.

Sorry, Mike. When God was giving out brains, I thought he said, "trains" and I replied, "I'll take a slow one." I got what I asked for. I'm slow, but it eventually sinks in.

BTW - I found that report I used to give away. It is from 2005. LOL - not even sure how much is even relevant anymore:

http://www.cleanupyourinbox.com/uplo...pyourinbox.pdf

Disclaimer: I did not actually write this, even though I say I did in the report. It was one of my first PLR projects. I did, however, edit it quite a bit.

TYVM, for that.

Cheers. - Frank

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Paul Myers

10 years ago

Frank,

I still believe that not a single seller would complain about that. I could be totally wrong.

You are wrong on this one. The majority of sellers who do any sort of follow-up at all would object, strongly. And they would be right to do so.

If that's you're way of saving some people enjoy the situation, well OK. You would no more about that having observed what is actually complained about here over a long period of time. I just can't wrap my pea-brain around that.

People complain about everything here. The fact that people might complain isn't always a basis for a change in policy.

Some people complain bitterly and endlessly about OTOs. Is it our business to tell people what follow-up offers they can make once a person leaves this site?

I could not disagree more. I'm more in the school of, "It's foolish to believe that you are powerless to change any decision regardless of how strongly it is enforced."

That sounds good, but it doesn't apply to the kind of decision I was talking about.

If we make rules we cannot enforce, it weakens all the other rules, and removes any semblance of good sense people might ascribe to them.

We could not effectively enforce that rule, even if it were appropriate for us to try. And I don't believe it would be.

As a side note... When it comes to managing email influx, I have a great deal of control over how much I get from legitimate senders, and how much time it consumes. That is a trivial expense. Compare that to what happens when the spam blocking system on my server goes down. When that happens, my total email inflow increases by at least a factor of ten, and those messages don't have working unsubscribes. They just keep coming.

For the legit senders, there are options. If they don't send anything I want to see, I unsubscribe. If they rarely send anything I want to see, but are worth keeping, I have filters that move the mail into folders as it's downloaded. (I have over 1300 folders in my mailer at the moment.) The rest gets looked at quickly and deleted, filed, or acted on, as needed.

I get behind in the flood sometimes, but that's not the fault of the senders.

Paul

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Frank,

Good Morning, Paul.

You are wrong on this one.

Permanently filed under, "So there actually is a "first time for everything."

The majority of sellers who do any sort of follow-up at all would object, strongly. And they would be right to do so.

I can totally understand that. That doesn't change my perception of their tactics, or to use a more benign term, their methods. Not to be argumentative but we all have our own view of reality and I will never be persuaded that it's not a net negative.

People complain about everything here. The fact that people might complain isn't always a basis for a change in policy.

Agreed.

Some people complain bitterly and endlessly about OTOs. Is it our business to tell people what follow-up offers they can make once a person leaves this site?

No. OTO's don't seem to bother me as I can click past them and never see them, again.

That sounds good, but it doesn't apply to the kind of decision I was talking about.

I agree. My premise was a bit weak on that point.

If we make rules we cannot enforce,

It's too early to argue the point and it's obvious I'm not going to change you mind, but I'll never agree that it could not be easily enforced.

it weakens all the other rules, and removes any semblance of good sense people might ascribe to them.

We could not effectively enforce that rule, even if it were appropriate for us to try. And I don't believe it would be.

Again, you understand the limitations of your authority and the ramifications of any action that you take. I can't argue any of my points with any feeling of superiority on the subject. I'm simply stating my experience as a newbie who was caught totally off-guard by what I encountered.

You stated, earlier, "People complain about everything here." I'm sure there are some folks who complain about a wide variety of things as opposed to just one thing. From what I have seen since arriving here is that I could probably be here for the rest of my life and not find something else I would ever complain about. That being said, I do realize that my complaint is not about something that is actually happening on this site. I do get that, so I understand your point.

As a side note... When it comes to managing email influx, I have a great deal of control over how much I get from legitimate senders, and how much time it consumes. That is a trivial expense. Compare that to what happens when the spam blocking system on my server goes down. When that happens, my total email inflow increases by at least a factor of ten, and those messages don't have working unsubscribes. They just keep coming.

For the legit senders, there are options. If they don't send anything I want to see, I unsubscribe. If they rarely send anything I want to see, but are worth keeping, I have filters that move the mail into folders as it's downloaded. (I have over 1300 folders in my mailer at the moment.) The rest gets looked at quickly and deleted, filed, or acted on, as needed.

I get behind in the flood sometimes, but that's not the fault of the senders.

Paul

Paul, I hear you Victor - Lima - Charlie. Roger Ramjet, over and out.

Cheers. - Frank

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Paul Myers

10 years ago

Frank,

No. OTO's don't seem to bother me as I can click past them and never see them, again.

This sort of makes the point. You consider them no big deal, but others are incensed by any offer that is followed by an OTO. They're convinced the extra offers are unethical, nasty, and a sign of a money-grubbing scammer. And they are every bit as sincere in their beliefs as you are in yours.

Unless the OTO is necessary in order to do what the sales copy promised for the initial offer, I just don't see it. And, with that caveat, it's not our business to dictate, no matter how outraged some folks might be over them.

Roger Ramjet, over and out.

"Mr Peabody, fire up the WABAC Machine!"

Roger Ramjet, he's our man.
The hero of our nation.
For his adventures just be sure
and stay tuned to this station.

Sorry. Just having a 60s flashback...

Paul

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Frank,This sort of makes the point. You consider them no big deal, but others are incensed by any offer that is followed by an OTO. They're convinced the extra offers are unethical, nasty, and a sign of a money-grubbing scammer. And they are every bit as sincere in their beliefs as you are in yours.

Well, the reason why I'm not bothered is I totally expect them. The emails came as a giant surprise. BTW they have been reduced to a slow trickle. Life is good.

Unless the OTO is necessary in order to do what the sales copy promised for the initial offer, I just don't see it. And, with that caveat, it's not our business to dictate, no matter how outraged some folks might be over them.

Not sayin' I agree with the practice, at all. That being said, some of the best purchases I have made have been OTO's, but yes, I'd still rather having everything stated up front. From my observations it seems that most who offer a WSO will outline the OTO's if pushed. I now push hard.

"Mr Peabody, fire up the WABAC Machine!"

Uh, Clutch Cargo sends his regards.

Roger Ramjet, he's our man.
The hero of our nation.
For his adventures just be sure
and stay tuned to this station.

Sorry. Just having a 60s flashback...

I still reside, there.

Cheers. - Frank

P.S. I've been looking for an outlet running Popeye. Seems you just may be the person to ask.

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Paul Myers

10 years ago

Frank,

Well, the reason why I'm not bothered is I totally expect them.

Most people expect the emails. Seriously.

Uh, Clutch Cargo sends his regards.

Now, stop that!

I'm gonna be re-running old cartoon themes in my head all day.

I've been looking for an outlet running Popeye. Seems you just may be the person to ask.

Amazon. You can get them on DVD, I believe. Or probably on YouTube.

Yep. YouTube has 'em, from the really old black and whites to the color episodes from the 60s.

Paul

PS, to Kurt: Consider yourself told, sir.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Frank,Most people expect the emails.

I know.

Seriously.Now, stop that! I'm gonna be re-running old cartoon themes in my head all day.

Amazon. You can get them on DVD, I believe. Or probably on YouTube.

Yep. YouTube has 'em, from the really old black and whites to the color episodes from the 60s.

Cool. I'm off.

Cheers. - Frank

P.S. "Plunk your magic twanger, Froggy!"

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Kurt 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

PS, to Kurt: Consider yourself told, sir.

Huh?????????
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- Paul Myers 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kurt
  
  Huh?????????
  
  Shorthand. You should be familiar with that by now...
  
  "Have I told you lately that you're a smartass?"
  
  "No."
  
  "Consider yourself told."
  
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Paul Myers

10 years ago

Frank,

Paul - save us!!!

From what?

Seriously. What am I supposed to "save" you from? The consequences of buying stuff?

It's not that hard to control the flow of legitimate email you get, and telling sellers what kind of communication they can have with their customers is waaaay outside the purview of the moderators of this (or any other) forum.

Yes, we could make that kind of rule. Hell, we could make it a rule that no-one is allowed to start any post with a vowel, or use more than one Q, X, or Z in any single paragraph.

Where's the line?

You have a preference. I have preferences. Others have different preferences that may or may not overlap yours or mine.

It is not now, and has never been, the policy of this forum to dictate to sellers or customers how they can communicate with each other outside the forum, except to say that:

A: Sellers may not trade, sell, "share," or otherwise give out the email addresses of people who buy from them through ads in this forum. (That's the "one order, one list" policy.)

B: Sellers must have some sort of system for communicating with customers that does not depend on this forum. Email, help desk, Facebook group, whatever. It has to be available even if the forum is not.

Note that those strictures do not say anything about the content of the communication.

While I mostly agree with you on a personal level, I don't see that as being anything we have any business making a rule of. If it really is a big issue for enough people, market pressure will handle it nicely. You can usually count on people to do what's most convenient for themselves.

This falls into the realm of a comment I recall from a movie I saw 40-plus years ago: "It is foolish to insist on a decision you are powerless to enforce."

Paul

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Frank, From what?

Seriously. What am I supposed to "save" you from? The consequences of buying stuff?

Hmmmm. I'd call it the after-effect of buying stuff.

It's not that hard to control the flow of legitimate email you get, and telling sellers what kind of communication they can have with their customers is waaaay outside the purview of the moderators of this (or any other) forum.

Well, we'll call that one a distinct difference of opinion. I clearly understand your way of looking at that, but my feeling is that it's not an onerous impediment to to any seller to abide by such a benign requirement. I still believe that not a single seller would complain about that. I could be totally wrong. I have never sold anything, here. Rest assured that if I did, I would certainly follow my own advice.

"Save us." was a bit hyperbolic on my part.

Yes, we could make that kind of rule. Hell, we could make it a rule that no-one is allowed to start any post with a vowel, or use more than one Q, X, or Z in any single paragraph.

Where's the line?

You have a preference. I have preferences. Others have different preferences that may or may not overlap yours or mine.

If that's you're way of saving some people enjoy the situation, well OK. You would no more about that having observed what is actually complained about here over a long period of time. I just can't wrap my pea-brain around that.

It is not now, and has never been, the policy of this forum to dictate to sellers or customers how they can communicate with each other outside the forum, except to say that:

A: Sellers may not trade, sell, "share," or otherwise give out the email addresses of people who buy from them through ads in this forum. (That's the "one order, one list" policy.)

B: Sellers must have some sort of system for communicating with customers that does not depend on this forum. Email, help desk, Facebook group, whatever. It has to be available even if the forum is not.

Note that those strictures do not say anything about the content of the communication.

Understood.

While I mostly agree with you on a personal level,

Well, that's something.

I don't see that as being anything we have any business making a rule of. If it really is a big issue for enough people, market pressure will handle it nicely. You can usually count on people to do what's most convenient for themselves.

I guess. From the responses I have read most people accept whatever comes down the pike and rarely voice any protestation.

This falls into the realm of a comment I recall from a movie I saw 40-plus years ago: "It is foolish to insist on a decision you are powerless to enforce."

I could not disagree more. I'm more in the school of, "It's foolish to believe that you are powerless to change any decision regardless of how strongly it is enforced."

Just because something is strongly enforced does not mean that it should not be changed. I'm not saying that in regards to this particular subject, but to life in general. As I previously stated, "Life IS change."

As I also previously stated, if no one agrees with me I will simply crawl back under my rock, never to broach the subject matter, again. I'm crawling back under, now. Please LMK when it's safe to poke my head out, again.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Paul. I do appreciate the valid points that you raise. That being said, I also appreciate the opportunity afforded me to express my feelings without fear of reprisal.

Cheers. - Frank

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MikeAmbrosio

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Greetings,

So, I buy a product on WSO. Very nice product. No complaints.

Immediately after registering I start receiving multiple emails hawking affiliate offers. I write and ask to be removed from the affiliate offer mailings and only mailed information relating to the product that I purchased.

I'm informed that if I want to be removed from what is legal spamming, I will no longer receive information about the product that I paid good money for. There is only one word for that. Insulting.

The problem is, I have purchased over 28 WSO's in the past 4 months. I want you to try and imagine how many affiliate offer emails that produces each day from everyone I purchased from sending me numerous emails on stuff that I have already purchased from the original WSO that actually created the product.

Additionally, if I am going to purchase that product, I am certainly not going to use their affiliate link and allow them to make a single penny as a reward for spamming me. I will track down the original offer and purchase directly from the developer.

All you folks who refuse to segment your lists into purchasers and affiliate offer lists are doing is creating one giant circle-jerk which benefits no one. I guess everyone loves this situation and maybe it's me that is missing the larger picture - but I really don't think so.

I have unsubscribed from all of these mailing and will simply write each developer every week (auto-generated) asking if there are any updates to the product that I purchased. We'll see how they like it when the shoe is on the other foot. Additionally, when I buy future WSO's - IF I DO - the minute I get the first affiliate offering via email, I will simply return the product and ask for a refund.

This year will NOT be like last year.

All WSO producers, LISTEN UP!!! SEGMENT YOUR LISTS IN 2014.

Why punish peeps that purchase your products with incessant mailing about offers that are not yours???

Cheers. - Frank

First, I agree people need to learn to segment. Sometimes it takes the smart ones a while to learn that

Having said that, when I buy a WSO for 7 bucks, I automatically understand that the WSO is a MUCH about list building as it is about the money. It's why it's only 7 bucks...

And having said THAT...since I already know what the WSO is for and I EXPECT to get emailed, I set up a separate Gmail account a few years back and it's where I send ALL these lists (except a select few). Right now there are 32,822 unread emails in that inbox

You may think that defeats the purpose of getting product updates, but really it doesn't (for me at least). Gmail's search engine works pretty well. I find whatever I need.

Ranting about this issue doesn't change anything (I should know - I ranted about this MANY years ago on this forum). It makes you feel better perhaps though. I also take small pleasure in knowing that all these little offer emails that go out starting the day you buy something - go unread...

Works for me...

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Big Rob

10 years ago

Frank,
IMHO, as stated by others, there is rarely ,if ever ANY updates.
Even if there is, most times it will show up in your WP admin.

Unsub. Save yourself the aggravation.

Paul,

I have gained new insight for what the Mods do here.
However y'all are compensated , it is clearly not enough...

Much Respect.

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MikeAmbrosio 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Big Rob

Paul,

I have gained new insight for what the Mods do here.
However y'all are compensated , it is clearly not enough...

Much Respect.

They are compensated with the love and respect of all the WF members.
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Kurt

10 years ago

Re: This Really Needs To Be Addressed

Hello thread!

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This Really Needs To Be Addressed

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