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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:02 PM   #1
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Default Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

There's a lot of IMers using similar marketing with their own health, make money online and personal development ebooks.

10 years. It's a federal case, so he'll probably serve all of it.


----
Chicago-based TV pitchman Kevin Trudeau was sentenced to 10 years in prison today for repeatedly defying court orders to pay a whopping $37 million fine over his fraudulent infomercials.

Trudeau, 51, smiled slightly as U.S. District Judge Ronald Guzman imposed the sentence. The judge called him "deceitful to the very core."

A Trudeau supporter caused a disturbance in the courtroom during the sentence, refused to leave and was carried out by security officers.
----
more:
Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison - chicagotribune.com
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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

With his money and the right lawyers, he'll be out in a halfway house in 4 years. He'll serve his time in a federal camp like Martha Stewart. He'll be able to work a job and earn as much as $16 a month.

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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:08 PM   #3
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Originally Posted by Mo Goulet View Post
With his money and the right lawyers, he'll be out in a halfway house in 4 years. He'll serve his time in a federal camp like Martha Stewart. He'll be able to work a job and earn as much as $16 a month.
With the right lawyer he would have probably never been sentenced in the first place.

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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post
There's a lot of IMers using similar marketing with their own health, make money online and personal development ebooks.

10 years. It's a federal case, so he'll probably serve all of it.


----
Chicago-based TV pitchman Kevin Trudeau was sentenced to 10 years in prison today for repeatedly defying court orders to pay a whopping $37 million fine over his fraudulent infomercials.

Trudeau, 51, smiled slightly as U.S. District Judge Ronald Guzman imposed the sentence. The judge called him "deceitful to the very core."

A Trudeau supporter caused a disturbance in the courtroom during the sentence, refused to leave and was carried out by security officers.
----
more:
Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison - chicagotribune.com
He finally got what he deserved. I feel sorry for the hundreds or maybe thousands he bilked.

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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Unfortunately this is an attack on free speech and all of our constitutional rights. How can one "prove" his theories on weight lose were fraudulent? I have no idea what his books were about but they were his ideas he was selling, exercising his constitutionally protected (well not anymore) free speech.
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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Originally Posted by Defacto View Post
Unfortunately this is an attack on free speech and all of our constitutional rights. How can one "prove" his theories on weight lose were fraudulent? I have no idea what his books were about but they were his ideas he was selling, exercising his constitutionally protected (well not anymore) free speech.
It´s important to keep in mind that free speach ends were it might hurt others.

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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defacto View Post
Unfortunately this is an attack on free speech and all of our constitutional rights. How can one "prove" his theories on weight lose were fraudulent? I have no idea what his books were about but they were his ideas he was selling, exercising his constitutionally protected (well not anymore) free speech.
His marketing claims were ultimately his downfall, not the books themselves.

Deceitful marketing is not protected speech.
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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

You do the crime, you do the time., etc.
I thought Kevin had such great charisma. Such
a pity he misused his gifts.

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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:40 PM   #9
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Yall remember that one infomercial where he had those 4 beautiful women at the table? Had my attention for the whole 30 minutes lol.

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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:41 PM   #10
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Never could stand that self centered arrogant prick from day one. Well deserved for scamming and deceiving people for so many years.

Good riddance!
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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defacto View Post
Unfortunately this is an attack on free speech and all of our constitutional rights. How can one "prove" his theories on weight lose were fraudulent? I have no idea what his books were about but they were his ideas he was selling, exercising his constitutionally protected (well not anymore) free speech.
I think maybe you got it the other way around. The question is, how can he prove that his ideas are right? Can't? Fraud.

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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Originally Posted by Mo Goulet View Post
With his money and the right lawyers, he'll be out in a halfway house in 4 years. He'll serve his time in a federal camp like Martha Stewart. He'll be able to work a job and earn as much as $16 a month.
I looked him up on the inmate search. He is currently here at a high rise prison in Chicago:

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Unread 17th March 2014, 07:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

I hope he has learned a lesson.What comes around goes around.

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Unread 17th March 2014, 08:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Originally Posted by chall View Post
I hope he has learned a lesson.What comes around goes around.
I think he learned it the hard way.

Indeed, what you sow is what you reap.

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Unread 17th March 2014, 08:24 PM   #15
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

Deceitful marketing is not protected speech.
Exactly; you don't get to cry about infringement of your free speech rights when the speech they fined you for was a con job.
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Unread 17th March 2014, 09:35 PM   #16
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

I don't think his crime fit the time; not even close. He advertised, people watched, people made a conscientious decision to buy. When some didn't like what they bought, credit card charges were reversed if no other way.

If I see a snank-oil salesman near the subway claiming his potion fixes that and fixes this... and sounds unbelievable, then I go ahead and purchase anyway, who the %$#@ am I to cry and file a complaint about it. I made a decision to purchase and buyer remorse doesn't make that salesman a con-artist. It makes me vulnerable to outlandish advertising claims. My purchase, my bad.

Any of you ACTUALLY buy his books and read them? A lot of good info in them that a person can use real world. Education behind a book binder. Good stuff.

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Disclaimer: I'm not a Trudeau junkie or for that matter, a supporter. I just don't like the idea of someone making a choice to buy, then get buyer's remorse and make a federal production out of it. How many of us have bought a WSO that was far less than we expected? I have but NEVER did I ask for my money back. I read an ad, pondered it, then purchased... not cry like a little b!@+<h and join some bs class-action suit with other "_____"!

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Unread 17th March 2014, 11:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

This sentence has more to do with his criminal contempt of court
than his deceptive writing and marketing practices. This judge does
not believe that leopards change their spots. Nor do I.

Instead of paying fines for previous judgments, he pleads poverty
and still lives a lavish lifestyle. $239 for two haircuts while he is broke?

He is what he is:

Kevin Trudeau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Unread 17th March 2014, 11:21 PM   #18
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post
I looked him up on the inmate search. He is currently here at a high rise prison in Chicago:

for a minute there I thought you were going to post and tell him to jump, as he read the warrior forum from jail.

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Unread 17th March 2014, 11:30 PM   #19
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

There's millions of things out there claiming to do things that simple don't happen. From weight loss to penis enlargement. The question is what did this guy do to be the only one that the government went after?
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Unread 17th March 2014, 11:42 PM   #20
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Originally Posted by Mo Goulet View Post
With his money and the right lawyers, he'll be out in a halfway house in 4 years. He'll serve his time in a federal camp like Martha Stewart. He'll be able to work a job and earn as much as $16 a month.
You may be on to something. There are four different parole systems in the federal system. The Third Branch

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Unread 17th March 2014, 11:46 PM   #21
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Quote:
But Judge Guzman was unimpressed, noting that in his three decades of fraud, Trudeau had taken on more than a dozen different aliases and even used his mother’s Social Security number to perpetrate a scam.

“That doesn’t happen by accident, and it doesn’t happen by good intentions,” the judge said. “It is a reflection of a person’s character.”
He's lucky his sentence was only 10 years. It could have been the recommended 20 to 25 years.

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Unread 18th March 2014, 03:51 AM   #22
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Has anyone here ever read his books? Yeah he says you may have thousands of dollars waiting for you but for the right person. For anyone to sue him against his "Sales Pitch" no different than what super affiliate's do online or really anyone who practices list building or is in the IM niche already does. Is a very narrow witted person.

I'm not trying to defend him, it sucks for him for targeting the wrong people for his sales pitch. What i am trying to say is that a majority of you saying that he deserves it, has probably never read anything he wrote. He provided very resourceful books.
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Unread 18th March 2014, 04:03 AM   #23
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

we bought his mega memory/advanced mega memory course. It was decent, but i never really used it
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Unread 18th March 2014, 05:08 AM   #24
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

I don't know much about the man, but I personally believe in always being honest in every aspect of your business. It is best for repeat customers.

However, if he honestly believed that his product could cure diseases or whatever, then not sure if he was being a con man. How does one prove if he believed it?

I know some people that truly believe raw food diet will cure cancer.

Some people truly believe dianetics can cure cancer.

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Unread 18th March 2014, 06:37 AM   #25
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrical View Post
There's millions of things out there claiming to do things that simple don't happen. From weight loss to penis enlargement. The question is what did this guy do to be the only one that the government went after?
The reason Trudeau is facing such a stiff penalty is that he has been avoiding paying earlier penalties, traveling and working outside of the court rules, hiding his money and basically being in contempt of court.
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Unread 18th March 2014, 08:41 AM   #26
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Previous fraud convictions for using his Mom's social security number to create false identities.

I looked through his cures they don't want you to know about book at WalMart.
It was $20 or $30. It said cure for such and such on page ---. Go to page --- and find out you have to join his membership site for the answers.

Anyway, his sentence for contempt is 10 years instead of 25 because he did not really
cause significant financial losses to his victims. But, again its criminal contempt of court for not paying fines as ordered and lying about his finances while probably hiding assets...
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Unread 18th March 2014, 08:53 AM   #27
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

This is definitely a BIG lesson for all IM'ers...

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Unread 18th March 2014, 09:12 AM   #28
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

I've never read the guys books, but why is he being imprisoned?

Seriously. Why again? Because his opinion was wrong?

For writing books that "they" don't want you to know about?

I guess the poor guy was right.

"They" REALLY did not want you to know.


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Unread 18th March 2014, 09:14 AM   #29
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

whats the difference between many of teh WSP vendors.. and Kevin T??? Kevins mistake was selling on TV

he is one of the great ones..
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Unread 18th March 2014, 09:17 AM   #30
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Originally Posted by Defacto View Post
Unfortunately this is an attack on free speech and all of our constitutional rights. How can one "prove" his theories on weight lose were fraudulent? I have no idea what his books were about but they were his ideas he was selling, exercising his constitutionally protected (well not anymore) free speech.
There's what should be, and there's what is. According to US Law, the only thing that can cure, prevent, or treat an illness, syndrome, disease, or physical problem or defeat is surgery or a drug recognized as such by the US FDA.

Trudeau KNOWS THAT. It's a center point of marketing in fact. So for him to then go around and say that some food or "cures" something was just ASKING for the federal government to go after him and it doesn't take a constitutional scholar to know that what Trudeau didn't fit the definition of free speech ... it was just stupid.

When someone refuses to deal with the reality of the situation, reality often will deal with that person quite harshly.
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Unread 18th March 2014, 09:22 AM   #31
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

He next book should be:

"THEY didn't want you to know so bad - THAT THEY STUFFED ME IN A CELL AND THREW AWAY THE KEY"

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Unread 18th March 2014, 09:26 AM   #32
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Originally Posted by StanHyeck View Post
There's what should be, and there's what is. According to US Law, the only thing that can cure, prevent, or treat an illness, syndrome, disease, or physical problem or defeat is surgery or a drug recognized as such by the US FDA.
That's far from the first US law that completely disregards the Constitution.
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Unread 18th March 2014, 09:29 AM   #33
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

I did use and like his Mega Memory course. That worked for me...

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Unread 18th March 2014, 09:47 AM   #34
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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That's far from the first US law that completely disregards the Constitution.
What sucks is that this statement is so true.
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Unread 18th March 2014, 09:47 AM   #35
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Quote:
I've never read the guys books, but why is he being imprisoned?

Seriously. Why again? Because his opinion was wrong?
Seriously? You can't read the articles about his activity and why he's in the clink? This wasn't about the books - but about his lack of character.

Had he been as smart as he thinks he is - he would have solved this problem back in 2004-5 and gotten past it. He prolonged it - added to it - and basically ignored the court and justice system.


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Unread 18th March 2014, 09:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Another Al Capone. His ultimate downfall was his greed. It's a game, you gotta know how to play it.
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Unread 18th March 2014, 10:15 AM   #37
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post
I've never read the guys books, but why is he being imprisoned?

Seriously. Why again? Because his opinion was wrong?

For writing books that "they" don't want you to know about?

I guess the poor guy was right.

"They" REALLY did not want you to know.

You obviously didn't read the story....

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Unread 18th March 2014, 10:16 AM   #38
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

He had it coming.
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Unread 18th March 2014, 10:25 AM   #39
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post
I've never read the guys books, but why is he being imprisoned?

Seriously. Why again? Because his opinion was wrong?

For writing books that "they" don't want you to know about?

I guess the poor guy was right.

"They" REALLY did not want you to know.

Fraud. He was held in contempt of court for several years, refusing to pay fines while at the same time living a lavish lifestyle. He peddled medical advice that had little basis in science, was not approved by the FDA (giving medical advice without FDA approval is a big no no), and could've potentially hurt a lot of people who take his advice without proper medical guidance.

Defrauding people and breaking laws meant to protect people is not protected by free speech. The guy had this coming for a while. He gives all IMers a bad name.
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Unread 18th March 2014, 10:48 AM   #40
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

This is funny to me, Internet Marketers bashing Kevin Trudeau for writing books, making false claims and giving bad advice, and we should hang him because the GOVERNMENT says so. REALLY!!!!! Have you guys check your squeeze pages, the emails you send out, the number of false and crap WSOs you create. If the government decides tomorrow that these things we do are deceptive we would all be facing time in prison.

Our industry is full of so called Kevin Trudeaus including many, many and i mean many on here, so i find it amazing that warrior members are bashing a man for giving BAD ADVICE, he never put a gun to nobody's head or anything physical for that matter, He was just a master marketer, yes a Marketer. I watch videos on YouTube explaining to me by big name Gurus(Give me a name, yes him too) on how to basically deceive people into buying my products and you guys too have seen these videos, heck you even bought their courses, and I or you should have the gull to bash a man that has mastered it better us? What do you guys think you do? Help poor little children or something?


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Unread 18th March 2014, 11:41 AM   #41
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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This is funny to me, Internet Marketers bashing Kevin Trudeau for writing books, making false claims and giving bad advice, and we should hang him because the GOVERNMENT says so. REALLY!!!!! Have you guys check your squeeze pages, the emails you send out, the number of false and crap WSOs you create. If the government decides tomorrow that these things we do are deceptive we would all be facing time in prison.

Our industry is full of so called Kevin Trudeaus including many, many and i mean many on here, so i find it amazing that warrior members are bashing a man for giving BAD ADVICE, he never put a gun to nobody's head or anything physical for that matter, He was just a master marketer, yes a Marketer. I watch videos on YouTube explaining to me by big name Gurus(Give me a name, yes him too) on how to basically deceive people into buying my products and you guys too have seen these videos, heck you even bought their courses, and I or you should have the gull to bash a man that has mastered it better us? What do you guys think you do? Help poor little children or something?
This is a perfect example of why IMers need to be transparent with the claims they make - ESPECIALLY in the health and weight loss niche, where people can seriously hurt themselves following bad advice. Make it perfectly clear your advice is not a cure for anything and to check with your doctor first.

At the same time, Trudeau's fraud was on a large scale and goes back decades. He was given plenty of time to comply with the laws, pay the massive fines, etc, but chose not too. That's why the government went after him the way they did.
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Unread 18th March 2014, 11:47 AM   #42
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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This is funny to me, Internet Marketers bashing Kevin Trudeau for writing books, making false claims and giving bad advice, and we should hang him because the GOVERNMENT says so. REALLY!!!!! Have you guys check your squeeze pages, the emails you send out, the number of false and crap WSOs you create. If the government decides tomorrow that these things we do are deceptive we would all be facing time in prison.
Quite a few of us don't make false claims. Many of us have never even DONE a WSO, let alone said anything false about one or done one that was crap.

That's an incredibly broad brush you're painting with there chief.

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Our industry is full of so called Kevin Trudeaus including many, many and i mean many on here, so i find it amazing that warrior members are bashing a man for giving BAD ADVICE
He is being bashed every bit as much for his refusal to follow court orders. Maybe you haven't actually read the thread?

And again, anyone paying attention knows that the FDA is one of the more ... aggressive ... agencies of the government, probably more so than even the IRS.

We can talk about false claims and who does what and on and on.

The bottom line is that he did it in an area controlled by the FDA and there is no WAY that he wasn't aware of how often they'll raid business and throw people in prison.

We can yap about whether or not what they do is constitutional or not, the FACT is that they do it, they get away with doing it, and they've never so much as received a slap on the hand for doing it.

The REALITY is you don't screw around with the FDA. Kevin did. I honestly think he knew that sooner or later he was going to get nailed for it and as someone has already pointed out, I think he's going to come out of prison and write another book (from outside the US this time).

His whole marketing pitch is going to be, "they put me in prison to try and silence me."

Wait 5 years and see if it doesn't happen.
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Unread 18th March 2014, 11:52 AM   #43
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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This is definitely a BIG lesson for all IM'ers...
This is definitely a BIG lesson for all sociopaths.

But your statement is applicable here because a lot of IM'ers have the ethical standards of Mr. Trudeau.

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How can one "prove" his theories on weight lose were fraudulent?
If he has any theories, then they would be testable, falsifiable and based on evidence - you know, science-based?. I'm not sure what his "theories" are though, but people use that word very loosely, when the correct word to use is "hypotheses". If Trudeau's "theories" are anything like a lot of alternative health publishers, they are probably based mostly on anecdote or correlations that don't have any verified causal relationship (e.g. People in country X eat food Y and are very skinny. Therefore, food Y will cause you to be skinny).

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Unread 18th March 2014, 12:26 PM   #44
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

This was a good look at this guy back in 2007 when his so called "Natural Cures" was a best seller.


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Unread 18th March 2014, 12:34 PM   #45
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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I don't think his crime fit the time; not even close. He advertised, people watched, people made a conscientious decision to buy. When some didn't like what they bought, credit card charges were reversed if no other way.

If I see a snank-oil salesman near the subway claiming his potion fixes that and fixes this... and sounds unbelievable, then I go ahead and purchase anyway, who the %$#@ am I to cry and file a complaint about it. I made a decision to purchase and buyer remorse doesn't make that salesman a con-artist. It makes me vulnerable to outlandish advertising claims. My purchase, my bad.
Your theory has one major flaw.

The world is full of people who truly ARE stupid enough to buy some potion outside a subway station and believe whatever the vendor says about it.

(By the way, I've never heard of snank oil. Is it anything like skank oil? )

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Unread 18th March 2014, 01:18 PM   #46
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Unfortunately this is an attack on free speech and all of our constitutional rights. How can one "prove" his theories on weight lose were fraudulent? I have no idea what his books were about but they were his ideas he was selling, exercising his constitutionally protected (well not anymore) free speech.
What "theories"? Apparently it is the same old stuff. The question wasn't if it worked, but if it worked AS ADVERTISED! You can't tell people it is an EASY diet and deny them so much.

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Unread 18th March 2014, 01:21 PM   #47
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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I looked him up on the inmate search. He is currently here at a high rise prison in Chicago:

I hope he is living in one of the sharp corners in a small room!

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Unread 18th March 2014, 01:23 PM   #48
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Has anyone here ever read his books? Yeah he says you may have thousands of dollars waiting for you but for the right person. For anyone to sue him against his "Sales Pitch" no different than what super affiliate's do online or really anyone who practices list building or is in the IM niche already does. Is a very narrow witted person.

I'm not trying to defend him, it sucks for him for targeting the wrong people for his sales pitch. What i am trying to say is that a majority of you saying that he deserves it, has probably never read anything he wrote. He provided very resourceful books.
That is one of the biggest scams EVER! I hope all those people get sued BIG TIME!

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Unread 18th March 2014, 01:45 PM   #49
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post
This was a good look at this guy back in 2007 when his so called "Natural Cures" was a best seller.

John Stossel Exposes Liar Kevin Trudeau - YouTube
WOW, I love the "OH, the charges were DROPPED" claim! It would be nice if that meant ANYTHING! And Tammy Faye and Jim are scamsters ALSO! And you probably know how I feel about the nobel prizes.

The SICK part is that the government HAS delayed projects, changed projects, thrown people in jail, etc... for no reason other than to make money. That isn't the case HERE, but it IS the case often enough to place enough of a shadow of doubt that even TRUDEAU has benefited from it.

TRUDEAU was in SO many things that, with a tiny tweak, could have LEGALLY made him a FORTUNE. It is a shame that he DIDN'T.

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Unread 19th March 2014, 12:44 PM   #50
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Default Re: Kevin Trudeau sentenced to 10 years in prison

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Originally Posted by bobson8788 View Post
This is funny to me, Internet Marketers bashing Kevin Trudeau for writing books, making false claims and giving bad advice, and we should hang him because the GOVERNMENT says so. REALLY!!!!! Have you guys check your squeeze pages, the emails you send out, the number of false and crap WSOs you create. If the government decides tomorrow that these things we do are deceptive we would all be facing time in prison.

Our industry is full of so called Kevin Trudeaus including many, many and i mean many on here, so i find it amazing that warrior members are bashing a man for giving BAD ADVICE, he never put a gun to nobody's head or anything physical for that matter, He was just a master marketer, yes a Marketer. I watch videos on YouTube explaining to me by big name Gurus(Give me a name, yes him too) on how to basically deceive people into buying my products and you guys too have seen these videos, heck you even bought their courses, and I or you should have the gull to bash a man that has mastered it better us? What do you guys think you do? Help poor little children or something?
I wouldn't. My stuff actually works?
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