Chipotle asks customers to not wave guns around their stores, causing gun nuts to threaten boycott

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Chipotle asks customers to not wave guns around their stores, causing gun nuts to threaten boycott
  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
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    The 2nd Amendment, 1789 - The Original Homeland Security.

    Gun control means never having to say, "I missed you."

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  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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    "Prosthetic genitalia." That about sums it up. What a couple of losers. lol

    I can't wait until someone drills them between the eyes. I'd pay good money to see that. Of course they'd never think to join the military where someone might shoot back. It's more fun just to scare law-abiding citizens that don't share their immature, dangerous fetish. The one toady is larger than an Abrams tank and the other guy is tired of being beat up by his twelve year-old sister.

    Did I mention they're a couple of losers? Second amendment, my ass.

    Cheers. - Frank
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    • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

      "Prosthetic genitalia." That about sums it up. What a couple of losers. lol

      I can't wait until someone drills them between the eyes. I'd pay good money to see that. Of course they'd never think to join the military where someone might shoot back. It's more fun just to scare law-abiding citizens that don't share their immature, dangerous fetish. The one toady is larger than an Abrams tank and the other guy is tired of being beat up by his twelve year-old sister.

      Did I mention they're a couple of losers? Second amendment, my ass.

      Cheers. - Frank
      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

      ...

      When I see people gleefully licking their chops in what they regard as an acceptable form of blood lust, rooted in retribution - I shudder. ... We do not live up to our own humanity when we lower ourselves to that of the accused simply to mollify our outrage over the crimes they committed.

      When I was 5 years old I was taught something that I have never forgotten. "Two wrongs, don't make a right." Simplistic? Possibly. Apropos? I believe so.

      An enlightened society can't stoop to barbaric behaviors in a misguided effort to satisfy their desire for vengeance.
      Which is the true Big Frank?

      The vast - VAST - majority of people who carry weapons, myself included, try to avoid attention, much less confrontation. The idiots - and I do agree with you on that count - that sparked all this by showing up at a Chipotle's with over-the-top weaponry deserve to be ridiculed.

      The Bloomberg-funded organization behind Chipotle's waffling has my never-ending contempt. I agree with absolutely nothing they say, and I believe their actions are an assault on my freedom.

      But I really hope that no one 'drills them between the eyes'.
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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        Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

        Which is the true Big Frank?
        Oh, my - what a stretch. lol

        But I really hope that no one 'drills them between the eyes'.
        Let's just agree to disagree and leave at that.

        Cheers. - Frank
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

      "Prosthetic genitalia." That about sums it up. What a couple of losers. lol

      I can't wait until someone drills them between the eyes. I'd pay good money to see that. Of course they'd never think to join the military where someone might shoot back. It's more fun just to scare law-abiding citizens that don't share their immature, dangerous fetish. The one toady is larger than an Abrams tank and the other guy is tired of being beat up by his twelve year-old sister.

      Did I mention they're a couple of losers? Second amendment, my ass.

      Cheers. - Frank
      I don't even believe the two guys shown have ever owned, or even actually TOUCHED a real gun! They look very phony! COME ON! The tall guy has the muzzle resting flat on the ground, and rests his hands on the butt? The OTHER guy has his finger on the trigger as he carelessly points down?

      OK, the content looks like GARBAGE! What does wikipedia say about the SOURCE?

      Daily Kos /ˈkoʊs/ is an American political blog that publishes news and opinions from a liberal point of view.[2][3][4][5] It functions as a discussion forum and group blog for a variety of netroots activists whose efforts are primarily directed toward influencing and strengthening the Democratic Party with a particular focus on progressive policies and candidates. Additionally, the site features a participatory political encyclopedia ("DKosopedia"), glossaries, and other content.
      Daily Kos was founded by Markos Moulitsas (Kos from the last syllable of his first name, his nickname while in the military) in 2002. In 2007, its parent company, Kos Media, LLC, began a fellowship program to help fund a new generation of progressive activists. About a dozen contributing editors provide content for the site, with three to four new editors being chosen from the Daily Kos community every year.
      OH YEAH, I am REALLLLLLY supposed to believe that filth! NICE TRY!(sarc)

      Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        What a couple of losers. lol
        Convince easily?

        Does anyone thinks it's a bit odd that "shocking image" appears ONLY on that site??? Hmmmm...

        Can you say "set up" - or is it too much trouble to check it out?

        And what's the overriding message of the site? Those nasty guys on the right are trying to take away your right to vote!!!! OMG - they want to see your ID...oops, that cancels out the "vote often" plan.

        Isn't it wrong to ask for ID for people applying for food stamps or housing assistance? How dare they expect people to prove who they are before getting govt money?

        This is nothing but showboating and I have nothing but contempt for this "group" and their antics.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Convince easily?

          Does anyone thinks it's a bit odd that "shocking image" appears ONLY on that site??? Hmmmm...

          Can you say "set up" - or is it too much trouble to check it out?
          Conspiracy theory, much?

          Watch out for those black helicopters. Priceless!!!

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            Conspiracy theory, much?

            Watch out for those black helicopters. Priceless!!!

            Cheers. - Frank
            Yep because the Daily Kos is fair and balanced journalism and not really a far left propaganda rag:rolleyes:
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Show me one other progressive "shock value" photo that doesn't appear on 20-30 liberal blogs immediately....doesn't happen.

              ALSO: -- Do you find any other "news" items about boycots of Chipotle's by gun nuts??? I sure don't. It's a story that's right up there with "when did you stop beating your wife"...

              Though if I was mother to one of those two guys - I sure wouldn't admit it in public.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              Yep because the Daily Kos is fair and balanced journalism and not really a far left propaganda rag:rolleyes:
              You're probably right. And I also see plenty of references (on the forum, not this thread) to far right blogs and religious blogs, and doomsday blogs, and conspiracy blogs.

              Maybe we could keep it to the real news. Maybe we could keep the word "gun nuts" out of the headlines. Maybe we could see that the vast majority of people on both sides of the issue..
              1) Don't want to take away anyone's guns.
              2) Think background checks are a good idea.

              Maybe we could see that the vast majority of gun owners take their responsibility very seriously. And maybe we could see that some people are incredibly stupid...and some of them have guns too....and blogs.

              We keep arguing this from the extreme fringes. And both fringes are populated with dedicated...but unstable people.

              But 99.99% of people on both sides? We get along just fine. It's the nuts that make the news. A staged picture? I've seen it on both sides of the isle.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                Claude - It's sensationalized and falsified because the few percent of those on the fringes on both sides will scream and howl and pass it on.

                The REAL Story:

                A group supporting open carry laws had a meeting in a TX Chipotle.

                Bloomberg's group didn't like it so the "moms group" started a peitition about an "armed trip" to Chipotle. The petition group includes a photo showing two men UNRELATED TO the Open Carry Texas group who had the lunch meeting.

                Most of us look at that and think it's stupid. The group had a right to meet over lunch - open carry is allowed. So the petition was actually complaining and demanding action from a restaurant chain about a group of people exercising their rights.

                The ugly part is the willingness to use a faked photo and falsify a story to get attention.

                Open Carry Texas founder C.J. Grisham told Forbes that this past weekend’s activity was not a demonstration, but simply a meal following an event.
                “We don’t go there just to carry guns into a restaurant,” he said. “We always let the manager know we’re coming. We try very hard to make people feel comfortable.”
                Grisham said his group’s policy is to send an unarmed person into a restaurant to seek permission to dine and to warn staff and customers in advance.
                “We’re peaceful, we’re looking for a place to eat, but we have guns,” he said. “If we’re not welcome, we’re not going to spend money there.”
                Not really a big scare, was it?
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                You're probably right. And I also see plenty of references (on the forum, not this thread) to far right blogs and religious blogs, and doomsday blogs, and conspiracy blogs.

                Maybe we could keep it to the real news. Maybe we could keep the word "gun nuts" out of the headlines. Maybe we could see that the vast majority of people on both sides of the issue..
                1) Don't want to take away anyone's guns.
                2) Think background checks are a good idea.

                Maybe we could see that the vast majority of gun owners take their responsibility very seriously. And maybe we could see that some people are incredibly stupid...and some of them have guns too....and blogs.

                We keep arguing this from the extreme fringes. And both fringes are populated with dedicated...but unstable people.

                But 99.99% of people on both sides? We get along just fine. It's the nuts that make the news. A staged picture? I've seen it on both sides of the isle.
                I agree Claude. I give them about as much credence as I do the Kos.
                I've got friends with all different political and religious beliefs. We have things we disagree about and things we agree with. But I believe they are all good people.
                Same with the people here on the forum. I can't think of anyone here that I wouldn't get along with in person. Heck I'm constantly getting into it with Tim P. I think our political views are as different as you can get. But I also think Tim is a damn good person and I would love to be able to visit with him in Ca. or here in N.Y.
                I bet if we got together in person politics would never come up.
                So yeah I agree it doesn't matter what side of the line you're on most people get along just fine, because with the exception of the nuts that's all we want anyways to get along.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Does anyone thinks it's a bit odd that "shocking image" appears ONLY on that site??? Hmmmm...
          That image is on businessinsider and forbes also so far.

          By the way, the people who want to start asking for ids to vote aren't doing it to stop voter fraud. That's only what they want you to think. The only reason they are doing it is to keep the vote down for certain groups of people. It's all for political reasons. They also are the same people who want to stop the voting on Sundays, which also is a way to keep the vote down for certain groups of people. Tell me how stopping voting on Sundays will stop nonexistent voter fraud.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I found it on Forbes - copied from the MOMS group posting. It's fake - you know it and I know it....and it's so unnecessary.

            Any group should be able to present their case without threatening a business (Chipotle) or making false claims or falsifying images and portraying them as "part of that group" when they aren't. They should present their arguments and their beliefs - but do without lies and subterfuge.

            I firmly believe both pro and anti gun groups have a right to make their arguments - but not if they are using false information or creating their own "facts".
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              It's fake...
              How is it fake Kay? Do you know that for sure? It was apparently taken in the same Dallas restaurant.
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                How is it fake Kay? Do you know that for sure? It was apparently taken in the same Dallas restaurant.
                I have NEVER known a gun owner to act in such a way. And the MUZZLE to the ground!?!?!?!? GIVE ME A BREAK! That picture is like someone displaying a construction crew building a home, and someone is using a screwdriver to solder copper pipe, or silly putty to connect PVC pipe.

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  For that matter, how is SUNDAY significant?
                  I'd like to know where you can vote on Sundays:confused:
                  In 1792, a law was passed allowing each of the states to conduct presidential elections at any point in the 34 days before the first Wednesday in December. This was the date when the meetings of the Electors of the U.S. president and vice-president, known as the Electoral Colleges, were held in each state. A date in November or early December was preferable because the harvest would have been finished, but the most severe winter storms would not have begun.
                  As long distance communication improved and became quicker with the advent of trains and telegraphs, allowing each state to conduct its elections at any point in a period of more than a month, became outdated. The results of the elections that were announced earliest could influence the outcomes of elections held later in the permitted period.
                  In 1845 the United States Congress chose a single date for all national elections in all states. The first Tuesday after the first Monday in November was chosen so that there would never be more than 34 days between Election Day and the first Wednesday in December. Election Day is held on a Tuesday so that voters will not have to vote or travel on Sunday. This was an important consideration at the time when the laws were written and is still so in some Christian communities in the United States.Election Day in United States
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                    I'd like to know where you can vote on Sundays:confused:
                    You have a point! But many christians would be out on sunday. Youcouldbe out the whole day. It is a day of rest and there is getting ready for church, church, and lots of things after. So if sunday were the ONLY day, protestants and catholics would be unjustly affected.

                    But I doubt tim would care about many of THEM. And HE said:

                    They also are the same people who want to stop the voting on Sundays, which also is a way to keep the vote down for certain groups of people. Tell me how stopping voting on Sundays will stop nonexistent voter fraud.
                    Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Tim -

              You have to have ID for food stamps, housing subsidies, MedicAid, ADC...and the ID's are free. I fully agree no one should be put off from voting - and no one should have to pay for ID or go a long distance or spend much time getting the ID. The outcry against ID is out of proportion - it's become a rally cry for "they are trying to stop you from voting" and I don't believe that.

              We've had people who did vote in more than one state - who voted for several other people - who voted as a mail in and then walked in an voted again. Without ID, how do we know votes are cast by citizens of this country? We don't.

              We know it's against the law to vote multiple times - but now we know there's no big deal or tough sentence if you violate the law. In fact, you might be presented as a hero by someone like Sharpton.

              Both parties jeer embrace of fraudulent voter
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              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                Tim -

                You have to have ID for food stamps, housing subsidies, MedicAid, ADC...and the ID's are free. I fully agree no one should be put off from voting - and no one should have to pay for ID or go a long distance or spend much time getting the ID. The outcry against ID is out of proportion - it's become a rally cry for "they are trying to stop you from voting" and I don't believe that.

                We've had people who did vote in more than one state - who voted for several other people - who voted as a mail in and then walked in an voted again. Without ID, how do we know votes are cast by citizens of this country? We don't.

                We know it's against the law to vote multiple times - but now we know there's no big deal or tough sentence if you violate the law. In fact, you might be presented as a hero by someone like Sharpton.

                Both parties jeer embrace of fraudulent voter
                Don't forget. The DNC and whitehouse events ALSO require an ID. You are ALSO supposed to have one to drive a car, fly on a plane, travel outside of the country, buy insurance, buy a home, get a loan, cash a check.

                But I am STILL waiting for an answer here. And TIM...... It seems like OTHERS here would like to know ALSO!

                Steve
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                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  Tim -

                  You have to have ID for food stamps, housing subsidies, MedicAid, ADC...and the ID's are free. I fully agree no one should be put off from voting - and no one should have to pay for ID or go a long distance or spend much time getting the ID. The outcry against ID is out of proportion - it's become a rally cry for "they are trying to stop you from voting" and I don't believe that.

                  We've had people who did vote in more than one state - who voted for several other people - who voted as a mail in and then walked in an voted again. Without ID, how do we know votes are cast by citizens of this country? We don't.

                  We know it's against the law to vote multiple times - but now we know there's no big deal or tough sentence if you violate the law. In fact, you might be presented as a hero by someone like Sharpton.

                  Both parties jeer embrace of fraudulent voter
                  I tend to think, with all the things in this country that you are required to show an ID for that showing one to vote should not be a big deal. I also tend to think that any groups that are opposed to showing an ID to vote are taking advantage of not having to show one and don't want that advantage to end.
                  Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

                  You have a point! But many christians would be out on sunday. Youcouldbe out the whole day. It is a day of rest and there is getting ready for church, church, and lots of things after. So if sunday were the ONLY day, protestants and catholics would be unjustly affected.

                  But I doubt tim would care about many of THEM. And HE said:



                  Steve
                  Steve I wouldn't have a problem with changing election day so more people can vote. Heck I think making it a 2 day event like a Saturday and Sunday would work, as long as you had a news block on the elections until the polls closed on the second day. I also think having to show an ID to vote is a good idea. After all like has already been stated you have to show one for many, many, things we do. The only reason I can see to be opposed to the idea is if it will stop you from gaming the system.
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                  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                    Steve I wouldn't have a problem with changing election day so more people can vote. Heck I think making it a 2 day event like a Saturday and Sunday would work, as long as you had a news block on the elections until the polls closed on the second day. I also think having to show an ID to vote is a good idea. After all like has already been stated you have to show one for many, many, things we do. The only reason I can see to be opposed to the idea is if it will stop you from gaming the system.
                    YEAH, if we hadit on saturday/sunday, I believe ANYONE reasonable would be OK with that. As it stands NOW, many employeeswould have a problem with days of the week. Chris Matthews actually THANKED GOD for sandy in 2012!!!!!!

                    Chris Matthews Addresses Controversial Hurricane Sandy Comments: 'I Wasn't Talking About The Horror Of The Storm'

                    I knew EXACTLY what he meant! I think he HAD to tell the truth here because what else could he say? I don't think it helped him anyway. The 2012 benefited some in THREE WAYS! 1. That last minute gift from christie, that many WILL remember. 2. The fact that people were shifted around and some areas were CLOSED! 3. Those that didn't have to worry about work could stay and take advantage of the polls being opened longer.

                    If not for sandy, who knows how things would end up.

                    The effects of sandy would have been mitigated by a sunday/saturday period.

                    I spoke to some postal carriers, and they said they can take off a day other than saturday. FEW, if any, religious people would be bothered by saturday AND sunday. Clearly, most others would be fine.

                    Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                    First of all, regarding voting on Sunday. In 33 states any qualified voter may cast a ballot in person during a designated period prior to Election Day. All states allow absentee voting of some sort. So millions of people vote prior to election day, including in some states on Sunday. During the 2008 election there was a very popular vote drive called "take your souls to the polls" which encouraged voting by taking church members directly from church to the polls. ( Steve is wrong in assuming I wasn't referring to religious folks ). A large majority of these were Democrats and most voted for Obama. The opposition became aware of this afterwards.

                    There wasn't any big voting fraud of course. Some very isolated cases here and there. But the opposition wanted to do anything it could to make the voting turnout be in their favor. One of the ways was/is to try to limit voting on Sundays, especially the Sunday before the election, which is what they did in Florida. And also in Ohio. Some states also restricted voting times that mostly affected minorities. This stuff is so transparent you would have to be Stevie Wonder to not see it.

                    The voting id laws are another form of trying to get lower turnouts of those who statistically vote against one side. Again, this wasn't some sort of grass roots effort by a bunch of Dan Riffles who saw some widespread voting fraud. It was started by political hacks who wanted to game the system. They realized by changing voting id laws one party would benefit. Their party. This is as clear as day. Heck, Pennsylvania State House Majority leader Mike Turzai admitted this in 2012 when he said that voter id would "allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania. Done"

                    It isn't about voter fraud. That's just made up shit. The folks who write these laws understand that. Those who read what these people say don't seem to yet.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                      First of all, regarding voting on Sunday. In 33 states any qualified voter may cast a ballot in person during a designated period prior to Election Day. All states allow absentee voting of some sort. So millions of people vote prior to election day, including in some states on Sunday. During the 2008 election there was a very popular vote drive called "take your souls to the polls" which encouraged voting by taking church members directly from church to the polls. ( Steve is wrong in assuming I wasn't referring to religious folks ). A large majority of these were Democrats and most voted for Obama. The opposition became aware of this afterwards.

                      There wasn't any big voting fraud of course. Some very isolated cases here and there. But the opposition wanted to do anything it could to make the voting turnout be in their favor. One of the ways was/is to try to limit voting on Sundays, especially the Sunday before the election, which is what they did in Florida. And also in Ohio. Some states also restricted voting times that mostly affected minorities. This stuff is so transparent you would have to be Stevie Wonder to not see it.

                      The voting id laws are another form of trying to get lower turnouts of those who statistically vote against one side. Again, this wasn't some sort of grass root effort by a bunch of Dan Riffles who saw some widespread voting fraud. It was started by political hacks who wanted to game the system. They realized by changing voting id laws one party would benefit. Their party.


                      This is as clear as day.

                      Heck, Pennsylvania State House Majority leader Mike Turzai admitted this in 2012 when he said that voter id would "allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania. Done"

                      It isn't about voter fraud. That's just made up shit. The folks who write these laws understand that.

                      Those who read what these people say don't seem to yet.
                      Sure Tim, they've lost 5 of the last 6 popular votes for POTUS and they realize they can't win the POTUS unless they suppress the Dem vote.

                      They also know they couldn't out fundraise the dems using the old system so the SC jumps in with Citizens United allowing unlimited and dark money into the process.

                      They still lost in 2012 and I'll bet they'll lose the POTUS in 2016 also.
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                      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                        Sure Tim, they've lost 5 of the last 6 popular votes for POTUS and they realize they can't win the POTUS unless they suppress the Dem vote.

                        They also know they couldn't out fundraise the dems using the old system so the SC jumps in with Citizens United allowing unlimited and dark money into the process.
                        Why didn't the DEMS use the old system, if it worked so well. I got all those emails asking for the amounts as low as $3! And they BRAGGED that the average donation was only $54! How many LARGE donations must theyhave gotten to bring up all those $3 donations to an average of 54? And have you looked at soros lately?

                        Steve
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                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                        Sure Tim, they've lost 5 of the last 6 popular votes for POTUS and they realize they can't win the POTUS unless they suppress the Dem vote.

                        They also know they couldn't out fundraise the dems using the old system so the SC jumps in with Citizens United allowing unlimited and dark money into the process.
                        Yep. Tens of thousands of people have been protesting this for months and months, yet those who keep talking about freedom don't seem to care. This is outright voter suppression. Something every American should detest and be against, but I guess it's ok because because "my side" will benefit.
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                        • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                          Yep.


                          Tens of thousands of people have been protesting this for months and months, yet those who keep talking about freedom don't seem to care.


                          This is outright voter suppression.


                          Something every American should detest and be against, but I guess it's ok because because "my side" will benefit.
                          And unfortunately their side is littered with 99% of the racists and 99% of the climate change deniers.

                          You would think it would give decent minded people at least a couple of good reasons to seriously question the role they've decided to play in American history - but it is not to be.


                          Maybe you can help me understand what's driving them.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                            And unfortunately their side is littered with 99% of the racists and 99% of the climate change deniers.

                            You would think it would give decent minded people at least a couple of reasons to seriously question the role they've decided to play in American history - but it is not to be.


                            Maybe you can help me understand what's driving them.
                            Tim knows I hate minorities because I want people to have identification and now you know I'm a racist. You dems are apparently clairvoyant. You guys are like the real life X-Men. Can either of you shoot lasers with your eyes or fart lollipops, too?
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                            • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                              Tim knows I hate minorities because I want people to have identification and now you know I'm a racist.

                              You dems are apparently clairvoyant. You guys are like the real life X-Men. Can either of you shoot lasers with your eyes or fart lollipops, too?
                              I have not called or alluded to anyone in here being a racist and neither has Tim - to the best of my knowledge.

                              Suppressing the vote does not have to be in and of itself racist - it's just a political strategy.

                              All I said was since 99% of the ugly racists and 99% of the anti-scientific climate change deniers are on the right...

                              ... IMHO...

                              ... it would seem that decent minded people would also question what else the racists and anti-scientific climate change deniers are bringing to the table.

                              Could they be so ugly on a important social issue as race and also way wrong on such an vital issue - like climate change and be right about anything else really important - such as the American economy? What makes it tick? How to grow the middle class etc.?


                              I think not, but that's just me.


                              I don't have a big problem with voter ID, just don't try to sleaze it in right before a POTUS election.

                              IMHO there should be a very long phase in period.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                                I have not called or alluded to anyone in here being a racist and neither has Tim - to the best of my knowledge.
                                In the quote below Tim states that "the people" (there's no arguing inclusion or lack of inclusion here) who want ids are trying to keep down "certain" groups. Smacks of calling everyone with that opinion a racist or, at the very least, some other -ist.

                                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                By the way, the people who want to start asking for ids to vote aren't doing it to stop voter fraud. That's only what they want you to think. The only reason they are doing it is to keep the vote down for certain groups of people. It's all for political reasons. They also are the same people who want to stop the voting on Sundays, which also is a way to keep the vote down for certain groups of people. Tell me how stopping voting on Sundays will stop nonexistent voter fraud.
                                Here you state that 99%, basically all, racists exist on the right. The insinuation here is that the right = racism. Ergo rightist = racist.

                                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                                And unfortunately their side is littered with 99% of the racists and 99% of the climate change deniers.
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                                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                  In the quote below Tim states that "the people" (there's no arguing inclusion or lack of inclusion here) who want ids are trying to keep down "certain" groups. Smacks of calling everyone with that opinion a racist or, at the very least, some other -ist.


                                  That's BS. I was talking about the people who started these voter ID laws. I think I made that clear when I said folks like you didn't start a grass roots movement because of any widespread voter fraud but the political hacks did think of it as a way to try to win elections.

                                  Are these voter id laws racist? Yeah, because they are aimed at limiting voting by minorities which this country has a long history and tradition of doing. However, I think in this instance the reason was more political in that the people behind these laws were thinking "How can we win the next election".
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                    That's BS. I was talking about the people who started these voter ID laws. I think I made that clear when I said folks like you didn't start a grass roots movement because of any widespread voter fraud but the political hacks did think of it as a way to try to win elections.

                                    Are these voter id laws racist? Yeah, because they are aimed at limiting voting by minorities which this country has a long history and tradition of doing. However, I think in this instance the reason was more political in that the people behind these laws were thinking "How can we win the next election".
                                    You said, "the people who want to start..." not "the people who started..." I want to start requiring IDs. I'm in the group you were referring.

                                    Is it racist then to ask for ID for beer, to cash a check, rent a car, vote in a union election?

                                    Again, I couldn't care less about a minority or majority who can't go out of their way to get a free ID if their income level permits it.

                                    This "hard on minorities" tripe is one of the more ridiculous party lines in quite a while.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                      You said, "the people who want to start..." not "the people who started..." I want to start requiring IDs. I'm in the group you were referring.
                                      Yes, I wasn't clear and that's why I followed it up. Why do you want to have voter ID laws Dan? Am I wrong to assume there wasn't a widespread case of fraud that made you think about this?

                                      Is it racist then to ask for ID for beer, to cash a check, rent a car, vote in a union election?
                                      Nope. Not at all.

                                      This "hard on minorities" tripe is one of the more ridiculous party lines in quite a while.
                                      It's not so much that it's hard. It's that it will have an affect on elections. Why else would that majority leader in Pennsylvania have said what he did? He's not the only one who has been open about the true reasons for these laws.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                        A new nationwide analysis of more than 2,000 cases of alleged election fraud over the past dozen years shows that in-person voter impersonation on Election Day, which has prompted 37 state legislatures to enact or consider tougher voter ID laws, was virtually nonexistent.

                                        The analysis of 2,068 reported fraud cases by News21, a Carnegie-Knight investigative reporting project, found 10 cases of alleged in-person voter impersonation since 2000. With 146 million registered voters in the United States, those represent about one for every 15 million prospective voters.
                                        Election Day impersonation, an impetus for voter ID laws, a rarity, data show - The Washington Post
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                        Yes, I wasn't clear and that's why I followed it up. Why do you want to have voter ID laws Dan? Am I wrong to assume there wasn't a widespread case of fraud that made you think about this?
                                        There have been reports of voter fraud across the country. You can google it, if you'd like. It's too late for me to do the research for you.



                                        Nope. Not at all.
                                        Why? Doesn't a lack of ID make it disproportionately more difficult for minorities to purchase these items, or cash checks or do one of hundreds of other things that require a photo ID?



                                        It's not so much that it's hard. It's that it will have an affect on elections. Why else would that majority leader in Pennsylvania have said what he did? He's not the only one who has been open about the true reasons for these laws.
                                        Why will it affect elections, Tim, if the required document isn't hard to obtain? The IDs aren't hard to get and most can get them for free or at reduced cost, so why the whimpering?

                                        (The nitwit in PA didn't think the government would get the ID card printed in time, from my reading.)
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                                        • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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                                          Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                          The IDs aren't hard to get and most can get them for free or at reduced cost, so why the whimpering?
                                          Hi Dan,

                                          This is what I thought for a long while as well until my wife just recently tried to get her Iowa DL. We just moved from Illinois back to Iowa and when she went in to get her Iowa DL (which she has had in the past) she brought with her with her a valid Illinois DL, a certified copy of her birth certificate, our marriage license, 2 major credit cards, and bills addressed to her at our Iowa address and she was told that was not good enough. No deal, no Iowa DL. Bring more valid ID's and proper documentation she was told.

                                          So if what she brought with her is not enough proper documentation then I can see where other folks may have a problem getting a state DL or ID as well.

                                          I get your point of where does someone cash a check or whatever...I suppose it's easy enough to sign over a check to someone else with an ID, or they can cash it at someplace that knows them. To be honest my bank has only asked me for my ID once in the past 18 years.

                                          I still don't think voter ID laws will have any significant impact on elections though...at least not anywhere near the impact that the Mega $$$ and biased media coverage has. Of course the media coverage works both ways....but if we put the actual counts of negative vs positive media references on a balance I think we all know which way that scale tips.

                                          Cheers

                                          -don
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                            Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                                            Hi Dan,

                                            This is what I thought for a long while as well until my wife just recently tried to get her Iowa DL. We just moved from Illinois back to Iowa and when she went in to get her Iowa DL (which she has had in the past) she brought with her with her a valid Illinois DL, a certified copy of her birth certificate, our marriage license, 2 major credit cards, and bills addressed to her at our Iowa address and she was told that was not good enough. No deal, no Iowa DL. Bring more valid ID's and proper documentation she was told.

                                            So if what she brought with her is not enough proper documentation then I can see where other folks may have a problem getting a state DL or ID as well.
                                            I definately get your point here, Don. However, this isn't a reason to not require a photo ID. It's just proof that Iowa has a broken system.

                                            Here in Ohio, when I lost my ID, all I needed was a birth certificate, my social security card, and, I think, a bill (to establish residency).
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                              The push to require voter IDs has been going on since the last election - and the claim of "can't push that through just before an election" is the standard strategy against it.

                                              You want to talk voter intimidation? It seems it's not that big a deal...guess it depends on who is doing the intimidating???

                                              Black Panther Boss Who Got Off For Voter Intimidation Arrested | Judicial Watch

                                              It doesn't get more racist or hateful than the man in the story above.

                                              You can't go around stating 99% this and that and ignore those of your own party who are doing the very things you SAY you want to prevent....but that's what you do.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                That's an angle I hadn't thought of before.

                                                I don't have anything against having an ID to vote. Or even a drivers license. I can even see the logic in having to own property to be able to vote.

                                                But Republicans would benefit from stronger voter ID laws. That's a fact. But I don't know by how much. It may be statistically insignificant.

                                                I don't even see that as a bad thing. But "wanting stronger ID laws" isn't to solve a fraud problem, it's to gain an advantage. And, as Mike pointed out..not wanting voter ID laws is also a political advantage to Democrats. So, none of us are angels.

                                                In my business, there is a huge bias toward wanting to tax internet sales. But it isn't out of the idea of fairness, it's to make more sales. And when I bring that up, it's denied. But would a consumer want to pay taxes on internet sales? No.

                                                Are Republicans racists? No. Very few people are racist anymore. Real racism isn't accepted in either party.

                                                Republicans also give more to charity that Democrats.

                                                The more religious you are, the more likely you'll be Republican.

                                                If you own a business, you're more likely to be Republican.

                                                If you're an atheist, you're almost never a Republican.

                                                If you're a single woman, you're more likely to be a Democrat.

                                                The higher your college degree, the more likely you'll be a Democrat...or Libertarian.

                                                The more money you make, the more likely you'll be a Republican.

                                                The gun thing? I still can't figure out the connection to owning guns and politics. Most of my relatives are avid gun owners and hunters. And I don't see a political bias. But there probably is.....
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                                                • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                                                  Are Republicans racists? No. Very few people are racist anymore. But the few that are? Yup, their usually not Democrats.
                                                  See, I find it odd that people say this. I've seen racism equally across party lines.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                                    I agree - I've seen racism on both sides and it's usually the fringe elements on both sides. I do know friends of mine who are on the left usually dismiss or rationalize the racism on the far left as "you have to understand...." or "historically...." or "they were raised with...." but have no tolerance for racism from the other side.

                                                    Why not admit it's just wrong no matter which side or color it comes from or which side or color it's aimed at. Dump it, drop it , stop it, get over it, get past it, we can do better.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                                                    Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                    See, I find it odd that people say this. I've seen racism equally across party lines.
                                                    I would argue that Democrats simply hide it better. To keep up appearances that they are not racist. I don't have "facts" to back that up, but in my circle of influence, I know people from both parties and I find them about equally racist or non racist. It had more to do with upbringing than politics. But only half of them go to great lengths to give the appearance that they are not.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                    Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                                    See, I find it odd that people say this. I've seen racism equally across party lines.
                                                    Dan; So do I. In fact, I see so little, that my experience is insignificant. And once someone says a racist remark, I'm not interested in what party they are in.

                                                    And you brought up a good point.
                                                    The "Racists tend to be Republican" thing is from statements I keep hearing on MSNBC. But maybe they are expanding the definition of "racist" to include anyone that votes for stricter voter ID laws. I have no idea where this idea originally came from.

                                                    Maybe it's KKK membership, that's measured. I don't know.

                                                    In fact, it's the one statement I made that I wasn't 100% sure of. I'm taking it out of my post.
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                                                • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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                                                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


                                                  Are Republicans racists? No. Very few people are racist anymore. But the few that are? Yup, their usually not Democrats. But real racism isn't accepted in either party.

                                                  Republicans also give more to charity that Democrats.

                                                  The more religious you are, the more likely you'll be Republican.

                                                  If you own a business, you're more likely to be Republican.

                                                  If you're an atheist, you're almost never a Republican.

                                                  If you're a single woman, you're more likely to be a Democrat.

                                                  The higher your college degree, the more likely you'll be a Democrat...or Libertarian.

                                                  The more money you make, the more likely you'll be a Republican.

                                                  The gun thing? I still can't figure out the connection to owning guns and politics. Most of my relatives are avid gun owners and hunters. And I don't see a political bias. But there probably is.....
                                                  Only 57% of the population identifies as Democrat or Republican these days. Racism comes in many forms and it's not a one way street.

                                                  42 percent of people identify as Independent
                                                  32 percent identify as Democrat
                                                  25 percent identify as Republican

                                                  Record-High 42% of Americans Identify as Independents

                                                  Let us not forget Abraham Lincoln was a Republican.

                                                  And don't forget the Democrats elected the former clan leader Robert Byrd time and time again. Byrd was Democrat US Senator for 51 years, and a US Representative for 6 years. In-fact he was the longest serving member of congress in US history and he was elected over and over again despite forming his own chapter of the KKK in West Virginia.

                                                  I will add a few "if you are" statements...

                                                  If you are a Democrat you are more likely to be against nuclear power.

                                                  If you are a Democrat you are more likely to be against drilling for oil.

                                                  If you are a Democrat you are more likely to be against drilling/fracking for natural gas.

                                                  If you are a Democrat you are more likely to be an anti-Christian.

                                                  If you are a Democrat you are more likely to be anti-gun.

                                                  If you are a Democrat you are more likely to be against "traditional values".

                                                  If you are a Democrat you are more likely to be anti-war which in some cases can translate to mean anti-freedom. ie: It's not our business to interfere.

                                                  If you are Democrat you are more likely to be anti-military.

                                                  If you are a Democrat you are more likely to be for higher taxation.

                                                  If you are a Democrat you you are more likely to lobby for income equality. ie: Take from those that earned it and give it to those that didn't.

                                                  If you are a democrat you are more likely to call people racists when the subject or topic at hand has nothing to do with racism. ie: If I don't like President Obama's policies I am far more likely to be called a racist by the left than I am the right.

                                                  Many people will argue that Democrat policies have been doing a great disservice to the underprivileged - and folks having a hard time --> and those "liberal" policies have pushed for decades.

                                                  But let us not forget that a massive 41% call themselves independents these days and only 57.5% of all eligible voters turned out in 2012.

                                                  2012 Election Turnout Dips Below 2008 and 2004 Levels: Number Of Eligible Voters Increases By Eight Million, Five Million Fewer Votes Cast | Bipartisan Policy Center

                                                  Here is your breakdown of "legal" gun ownership by party as polled by Gallup.

                                                  49% of Republicans own guns.
                                                  35% of Democrats own guns.
                                                  35% of Independents own guns.

                                                  37% are college graduates.
                                                  30% have a post graduate degree.

                                                  Gun Ownership Statistics & Demographics | Statistic Brain

                                                  As far as the Republicans earning more money than Democrats here are the stats:

                                                  US Top 1%

                                                  41% Independent
                                                  33% Republican
                                                  26% Democrat

                                                  US bottom 99%

                                                  39% Indepenedent
                                                  33% Democrat
                                                  28% Republican

                                                  In the overall picture it's clearly the Independents that are driving the train.

                                                  Cheers

                                                  -don
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                    Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post


                                                    If you are a democrat you are more likely to be an anti-Christian.

                                                    If you are a democrat you are more likely to be anti-gun.

                                                    If you are a democrat you are more likely to be against "traditional values".

                                                    If you are a democrat you are more likely to be anti-war which in some cases can translate to mean anti-freedom.

                                                    They may identify as independent, but they don't vote that way in national elections.

                                                    Do you actually know anyone who is;

                                                    Anti-Christian?

                                                    Anti-Gun?

                                                    Against traditional values? (whatever that is)

                                                    Anti-Freedom? Has anyone on the surface of this planet actually said that they are Anti-freedom? Do you know anyone who is Pro-war?

                                                    Of course, I continue my never ending War On Christmas. And I am anti-children. And I'm anti-dog.

                                                    And I think families are wrong. I'm anti-family.
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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                                                      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                                                      They may identify as independent, but they don't vote that way in national elections.

                                                      They vote for the candidate that they think will do the best job based on the information that they have been presented.

                                                      Do you actually know anyone who is;

                                                      Anti-Christian?

                                                      Yeah. In-fact you see plenty of peeps downing Christians and Christian beliefs time and time again.

                                                      Anti-Gun?

                                                      Yeah. I guess you have never seen the left lobby against the NRA and guns, eh? Wow, where have you been the past few decades?

                                                      Against traditional values? (whatever that is)

                                                      You have never heard of licensed marriages between a man and a woman been referred to as a traditional value? I am not necessarily endorsing it as a "traditional value" --> but many do.

                                                      Anti-Freedom? Has anyone on the surface of this planet actually said that they are Anti-freedom?

                                                      Yeah. Plenty of folks lobby against the US intervening in conflicts/areas where we try to promote US ideology and values. ie: Freedom and Democracy.

                                                      Do you know anyone who is Pro-war?

                                                      Some people believe in a preemptive and/or a proactive national defense policy. Sometimes this may include military intervention.

                                                      Of course, I continue my never ending War On Christmas. And I am anti-children. And I'm anti-dog.

                                                      Anti-dog? I have know a few of those types and I did not care much for those folks.

                                                      And I think families are wrong. I'm anti-family.

                                                      Take a look at the statistics:

                                                      http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db18.pdf

                                                      The American family concept has been declining for decades.
                                                      It seems as if you have skipped a few decades of reality, my friend.

                                                      Cheers
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                                                        Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                                                        They may identify as independent, but they don't vote that way in national elections.

                                                        Do you actually know anyone who is;

                                                        Anti-Christian?

                                                        Yeah. In-fact you see plenty of peeps downing on Christians and Christian beliefs on a daily basis.

                                                        80% of the US are Christians. If there is a War On Christians...it's a losing war. I admit, that I am Anti-Religion. But I don't have favorites.

                                                        Anti-Gun?

                                                        Yeah. I guess you have never seen the left lobby against the NRA and guns, eh? Wow, where have you been the past few decades?

                                                        Right here. Liberals aren't anti-gun...any more than Republicans are "Pro-Abortion". It's a forced sound bite.

                                                        Anti-Freedom? Has anyone on the surface of this planet actually said that they are Anti-freedom?

                                                        Yeah. Plenty of folks lobby against the US intervening in conflicts where we try to promote US ideology and values. ie: Freedom and Democracy.
                                                        It seems as if you have skipped a few decades of reality, my friend.
                                                        We invade other countries. So our way is the right way? Not everyone believes as we believe. How would we react if another country sent troops to our country...for any reason?

                                                        The reason political arguments always...always fail to convince anyone, is because we are hardwired to defend our tribe...whatever tribe that is.

                                                        My tribe is very small, and we never meet.
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                                                  • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                                                    Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                                                    If you are a democrat you are more likely to be anti-war which in some cases can translate to mean anti-freedom.
                                                    That's a ludicrous comment.
                                                    If you are democrat you are more likely to be anti-military.
                                                    That's crap. Anti-military industrial complex perhaps. I'm tired of the right thinking that they have a lock on supporting the troops.

                                                    If you are a democrat you you are more likely to lobby for income equality. ie take from those that earned it and give it to those that didn't.
                                                    More, claptrap. You're confusing income redistribution with income inequality.

                                                    Cheers. - Frank
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                                      Among minorities in poor and rural communities, it's common to bypass banks with their paychecks and rely on cash-checking stores, which will accept most forms of photo ID.
                                                      So - they HAVE photo ID's but don't want to use them? Driver's license is only one form of photo ID.

                                                      Try cashing a check anywhere without a photo ID....anywhere.

                                                      How many 21 yr olds don't have an ID to buy a beer?

                                                      60% of people getting foods stamps are working adults - with ID's or they wouldn't have a job.

                                                      The very poor are usually on govt subsidies - and those require ID's to apply.

                                                      The arguments against voter ID don't hold up when you look at how our society operates.
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                                        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                                                        So - they HAVE photo ID's but don't want to use them?

                                                        No, the article is saying they use photo IDs that aren't acceptable to some of these new voter ID laws which tend to want specific government issued photo IDs.
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                                                        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                                                          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                                          No, the article is saying they use photo IDs that aren't acceptable to some of these new voter ID laws which tend to want specific government issued photo IDs.
                                                          Additionally, why aren't college students permitted to use their college ID cards and why are the new laws pushing to have voting locations removed from college campuses?

                                                          I wonder. - Frank
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                                                          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                                            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                                                            Additionally, why aren't college students permitted to use their college ID cards and why are the new laws pushing to have voting locations removed from college campuses?

                                                            I wonder. - Frank
                                                            Yes, that's another case of coming up with a solution to a nonexistent problem which would be voting fraud on campuses. Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact more college students tend to vote for one party would it? :/

                                                            In North Carolina the GOP tried to raise taxes on the parents of students who registered to vote while away at college. Another very transparent attempt to suppress the vote of a group of people who tend to vote for one party.
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                                                          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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                                                            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                                                            Additionally, why aren't college students permitted to use their college ID cards
                                                            Because it is the individual state that sets the ID requirement. If you don't like the way your state does business then get yourself elected and change things, or move.

                                                            For example Georigia:

                                                            georgia voter identification requirements2

                                                            And now California:

                                                            http://voterguide.sos.ca.gov/voter-i...quirements.htm

                                                            Cheers
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                                                        • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                                          Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                                          No, the article is saying they use photo IDs that aren't acceptable to some of these new voter ID laws which tend to want specific government issued photo IDs.
                                                          So change the laws to make more I.D.'s acceptable.
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                                                          • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                                            Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                                            So change the laws to make more I.D.'s acceptable.
                                                            What was wrong with the old system Thom? You have no problem with people obviously trying to suppress votes to win elections? Why is that?
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                                                      Banned
                                                      Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                                                      That's a ludicrous comment.

                                                      No it's not. I guess you missed all of those anti-war & anti-Bush protests, eh? Those were a large percentage of lefties, not righties. Many on the right wants a more proactive defense department and many on the left want do not want to see the US intervene anywhere, they do not want a nuclear deterrent, etc. etc.

                                                      That's crap. Anti-military industrial complex perhaps. I'm tired of the right thinking that they have a lock on supporting the troops.

                                                      It's not crap at all....

                                                      I served in the US Military --> I do not speak from my booty. I did not say that the left does not support the troops....I said the left is more likely to be anti-military and we all know it is the left that protests and lobiies against military action far more than the right does.


                                                      More, claptrap. You're confusing income redistribution with income inequality.

                                                      You are confusing reality with HuffPo nonsense.
                                                      Yeah, MSNBC, The Daily Koz, HuffPo and the others clearly have your mind on lockdown!

                                                      Please do make sure you get your fill of Martin Bashir, wherever he may be... and don't forget to support your boy Alan Grayson.

                                                      And next time please read my post more carefully --> in every case I said "more likely".

                                                      Cheers
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                                                      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                                        They may identify as independent, but they don't vote that way in national elections.
                                                        Claude have you ever looked at who the Independent candidate is on the ballot?
                                                        I registered to vote in 1971 as an Independent and have NEVER seen an actual Independent candidate on the ballot.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
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                                              Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                              I definately get your point here, Don. However, this isn't a reason to not require a photo ID. It's just proof that Iowa has a broken system.
                                              I was just making the point that in some states it can be relatively difficult to get an ID even when you already have a valid ID.

                                              Cheers
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                Originally Posted by ForumGuru View Post

                                                I was just making the point that in some states it can be relatively difficult to get an ID even when you already have a valid ID.

                                                Cheers
                                                No, no, no. Don't picture an argument where this isn't one.

                                                I was agreeing with you, but just pointing out that isn't a reason not to require an ID. Before such a requirement would be possible, those issues would have to be ironed out.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                                        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post


                                        It's not so much that it's hard. It's that it will have an affect on elections. Why else would that majority leader in Pennsylvania have said what he did? He's not the only one who has been open about the true reasons for these laws.
                                        Is it that it will have an affect? Or is it that it will have an affect on one particular party?

                                        And if you can argue that requiring IDs would have an affect on elections, then couldn't you ALSO say that NOT requiring IDs is at this moment having an affect on elections? And that since it is most likely be affecting the "other party" then that's just fine with you?

                                        Frankly, I don't think requiring IDs is a stretch. We already have to show them for so many other things. However, I DO agree that it's something that should be phased in over time.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                                          Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                                          And if you can argue that requiring IDs would have an affect on elections, then couldn't you ALSO say that NOT requiring IDs is at this moment having an affect on elections? And that since it is most likely be affecting the "other party" then that's just fine with you?
                                          Again, logic isn't your friend.

                                          Unless you have some actual proof, can you explain why voter fraud would only affect the "other side"? Are you claiming only one side cheats?

                                          However, if voter fraud legislation is only proposed in certain areas with high concentration of a certain demographic, then we may want to look a little deeper, don't you think?
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                                          • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                                            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                                            Again, logic isn't your friend.

                                            Unless you have some actual proof, can you explain why voter fraud would only affect the "other side"? Are you claiming only one side cheats?

                                            However, if voter fraud legislation is only proposed in certain areas with high concentration of a certain demographic, then we may want to look a little deeper, don't you think?
                                            You read too much in to my questions

                                            I used "logic" to question "logic". You ask if I have proof it is affecting things now. I never claimed it was. I just asked a question in response to someone saying REQUIRING IDs would (could) have an affect on elections. Where is that same question to that statement? After all, it's that argument that is constantly brought up by those who oppose it.

                                            And FYI - I don't claim to be on any side. While I do lean a certain way, NEVER would I assume that only one side does questionable things. Politicians are politicians. I don't think everything one party does is right or wrong, but I see enough opinions (right here on this forum) of those who truly believe everything their party does is right and the other party is always wrong. THAT is a ridiculous notion.

                                            Also, why would voter fraud legislation only be proposed in certain areas? Wouldn't that be what you call a "strawman argument"? I would agree with you that if it was, we would NEED to look deeper.
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                                        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                          Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                                          And if you can argue that requiring IDs would have an affect on elections, then couldn't you ALSO say that NOT requiring IDs is at this moment having an affect on elections? And that since it is most likely be affecting the "other party" then that's just fine with you?
                                          Not having IDs would only have an affect if there was proof of widespread voting fraud which just isn't the case. It's practically nonexistent.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                            Not having IDs would only have an affect if there was proof of widespread voting fraud which just isn't the case. It's practically nonexistent.
                                            GREAT! GLAD TO HEAR IT! Then you will have NO problem with requiring IDs!

                                            Steve
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                                          • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                            Not having IDs would only have an affect if there was proof of widespread voting fraud which just isn't the case. It's practically nonexistent.
                                            I guess that depends on which news source you (or I) choose to believe

                                            "Logic" aside, I find it difficult to believe that requiring IDs would have that much of a change but NOT requiring it makes no difference. :confused:
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                                            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                              Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                                              I guess that depends on which news source you (or I) choose to believe

                                              "Logic" aside, I find it difficult to believe that requiring IDs would have that much of a change but NOT requiring it makes no difference. :confused:
                                              Same here Mike. I have yet to hear any real examples of how having an ID to vote will hurt elections.
                                              I hear alot about it hindering people from voting, but haven't heard how it will.
                                              IMHO, its just a coincidence that some of the groups the Voter ID laws are designed to suppress are minorities as lots of young people would have been affected also.
                                              How?
                                              How is having identification as to who you are suppressing minorities?
                                              How does it effect young people?
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                                            So -you say voter fraud is practically non-existent. I say voter intimidation is practically non-existent. The only voter fraud I read of after the last election was on the left hand side..the only intimidation that made the news was on the left hand side. The resistance to ID is on the left hand side.

                                            At some point, even our govt will become computer literate to the point where duplicate votes will register clearly as fraud....but that won't happen without a voter ID system.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                                              ...but that won't happen without a voter ID system.
                                              What was wrong with the system we have been using for decades? How do they identify you now? In many states you need a photo ID to register to vote for the first time. The Help America Vote Act of 2002 requires those who registered to vote by mail on or after January 1, 2003 to show identification when voting for the first time in a federal election. If a photo ID is not required your ss # is.

                                              Once you register to vote the first time, you don't need to do it again unless you move. At least in California. I'm assuming it's the same in all states?

                                              Some of the folks who would have problems getting a photo ID now are seniors who have voted for decades. Many don't drive or get out much. Why should they have to get a photo ID to vote?

                                              It's funny that many of those who constantly complain about government bureaucracy are somehow ok with this added government bureaucracy.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                                              The only voter fraud I read of after the last election was on the left hand side..
                                              I guess like someone else said it depends which news source you read or view.

                                              Jack Villamaino, Former GOP Candidate, Gets 4 Months In Jail For Felony Voter Fraud
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                                              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                                Some info about those who don't have IDs in the US, why they don't and why it could be hard to get one:

                                                By all estimates, those least likely to have a government-issued photo ID fall into one of four categories: the elderly, minorities, the poor and young adults aged 18 to 24. The Brennan Center estimates that 18 percent of all seniors and 25 percent of African-Americans don't have picture IDs.

                                                Seniors traditionally have been the most consistent voting group, particularly in absentee balloting. Turnout among minorities has steadily risen over the years and reached a record in 2008 (when the rate of black turnout virtually equaled that of whites for the first time). Also in 2008, turnout of under-24-year-olds reached its highest rate since 1992.

                                                Why Don't They Have Photo IDs?

                                                Many people have multiple forms of identification, including those that display their pictures -- like employee badges or credit and debit cards. But states with strict voter ID laws require people to have certain photo IDs issued by governments.

                                                That typically means driver's licenses. But many seniors and many poor people don't drive. In big cities, many minorities rely on public transit. And many young adults, especially those in college, don't yet have licenses.

                                                A good number of these people, particularly seniors, function well with the IDs they have long had -- such as Medicaid cards, Social Security cards or bank cards. Among the elderly, many of them have banked at the same branch for so long that tellers recognize them without needing to see their IDs. They also may rarely need to cash or deposit checks, relying instead on the direct depositing of Social Security and pension payments.

                                                "The people we're finding are very poor people, people who never drove -- and it's surprising how many people are like that," says Larry Dupuis of the American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin, which has filed suit to overturn that state's voter ID law. "They tend to be older people, often women. They also never had a need for a state ID card. There are many things you don't need an ID card for that people think you actually need one for."

                                                Among minorities in poor and rural communities, it's common to bypass banks with their paychecks and rely on cash-checking stores, which will accept most forms of photo ID.

                                                Many states offer non-driver IDs that can be displayed when voting, often provided by motor vehicle agencies.

                                                But that can create a host of problems for some. Rural residents can live great distances from state motor vehicle offices. And some state motor vehicle agencies have chronically long wait times for customers. In Tennessee, which has a new voter ID law, the governor has raised concerns about whether offices are prepared to handle an increased volume of ID seekers.

                                                A good number of these people, particularly seniors, function well with the IDs they have long had -- such as Medicaid cards, Social Security cards or bank cards. Among the elderly, many of them have banked at the same branch for so long that tellers recognize them without needing to see their IDs. They also may rarely need to cash or deposit checks, relying instead on the direct depositing of Social Security and pension payments.

                                                "The people we're finding are very poor people, people who never drove -- and it's surprising how many people are like that," says Larry Dupuis of the American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin, which has filed suit to overturn that state's voter ID law. "They tend to be older people, often women. They also never had a need for a state ID card. There are many things you don't need an ID card for that people think you actually need one for."

                                                Among minorities in poor and rural communities, it's common to bypass banks with their paychecks and rely on cash-checking stores, which will accept most forms of photo ID.

                                                Many states offer non-driver IDs that can be displayed when voting, often provided by motor vehicle agencies.

                                                But that can create a host of problems for some. Rural residents can live great distances from state motor vehicle offices. And some state motor vehicle agencies have chronically long wait times for customers. In Tennessee, which has a new voter ID law, the governor has raised concerns about whether offices are prepared to handle an increased volume of ID seekers.

                                                If a state does have a person's birth certificate, they often must present a photo ID to obtain a copy. That can put an individual back at square one.

                                                "People are caught in a Catch-22: You need a birth certificate to get this ID, but to get a birth certificate you have to have an ID," says Elisabeth MacNamara, who heads the League of Women Voters.

                                                MacNamara also notes that a birth certificate may not be sufficient documentation for women who changed their names after marrying. States require them to present their marriage licenses or divorce decrees.
                                                Why New Photo ID Laws Mean Some Won't Vote : NPR
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                                                • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                                  Some info about those who don't have IDs in the US, why they don't and why it could be hard to get one:



                                                  Why New Photo ID Laws Mean Some Won't Vote : NPR

                                                  Cry me a river.

                                                  If you make it a requirement that you need an ID, those who want to vote will abide. Those who don't, won't. I don't want people voting anyway if they're only there for the free sticker.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                                              Banned
                                              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                                              I say voter intimidation is practically non-existent. The only voter fraud I read of after the last election was on the left hand side.
                                              One recent study found only 10 cases of alleged in-person voter impersonation in 12 years. Another analysis found that out of 197 million votes cast for federal elections from 2002 to 2005 only 40 voters out of 197 million were indicted for fraud.... Now for those of you who are math majors... the percentage is 0.00002 percent.
                                              Funny, but the voter suppression laws and techniques are clearly targeted to keep the left from voting, targeting the elderly, poor, students, Black, Latinos and any other group identified as voting Democrat.

                                              2002 New Hampshire Senate election phone jamming scandal

                                              In the 2002 New Hampshire Senate election phone jamming scandal, Republican officials attempted to reduce the number of Democratic voters by paying professional telemarketers in Idaho to make repeated hang-up calls to the telephone numbers used by the Democratic Party's ride-to-the-polls phone lines on election day. By tying up the lines, voters seeking rides from the Democratic Party would have more difficulty reaching the party to ask for transportation to and from their polling places.[21][22]
                                              2004 presidential election

                                              Allegations surfaced in several states that the group called Voters Outreach of America had collected and submitted Republican voter registration forms while inappropriately discarding voter registration forms where the new voter had chosen to register with the Democratic Party. Such people would believe they had registered to vote, and would only discover on election day that they were not registered and could not cast a ballot.[23][24][25][26]

                                              Michigan Republican state legislator John Pappageorge was quoted as saying, "If we do not suppress the Detroit vote, we're going to have a tough time in this election.".[27]

                                              In 2006, four employees of the John Kerry campaign were convicted of slashing the tires of 25 vans rented by the Wisconsin state Republican Party which were to be used for driving Republican voters and monitors to the polls. At the campaign workers' sentencing, Judge Michael B. Brennan told the defendants, "Voter suppression has no place in our country. Your crime took away that right to vote for some citizens."[28][29]
                                              2006 Virginia Senate election

                                              During the United States Senate election in Virginia, 2006, Secretary of the Virginia State Board of Elections Jean Jensen concluded that incidents of voter suppression appeared widespread and deliberate. Documented incidents of voter suppression include:[30]

                                              Democratic voters receiving calls incorrectly informing them voting will lead to arrest.
                                              Widespread calls fraudulently claiming to be "[Democratic Senate candidate Jim] Webb Volunteers," falsely telling voters their voting location had changed.
                                              Fliers paid for by the Republican Party, stating "SKIP THIS ELECTION" that allegedly attempted to suppress African-American turnout.

                                              The FBI has since launched an investigation into the suppression attempts.[31] Despite the allegations, Democrat Jim Webb narrowly defeated incumbent George Allen.
                                              2008 presidential election

                                              A review of states' records by The New York Times found unlawful actions leading to widespread voter purges.[32]

                                              A dispute between the Social Security Administration commissioner and the National Association of Secretaries of State about the use of the Social Security database to test the validity of voters led to the shutdown of the database over the Columbus Day holiday weekend.[33]
                                              Georgia

                                              Wait times of between 2 and 10 hours were reported during early voting at multiple Georgia locations[34]
                                              Michigan

                                              Prior to the 2008 United States Presidential Election, on September 16, 2008, Obama legal counsel announced that they would be seeking an injunction to stop an alleged caging scheme in Michigan wherein the state Republican party would use home foreclosure lists to challenge voters still using their foreclosed home as a primary address at the polls.[35] Michigan GOP officials called the suit "desperate."[36] A Federal Appeals court ordered the reinstatement of 5,500 voters wrongly purged from the voter rolls by the State:[34]
                                              Minnesota

                                              The conservative nonprofit Minnesota Majority has been reported as making phone calls claiming that the Minnesota Secretary of State had concerns about the validity of the voters registration. Their actions have been referred to the Ramsey County attorney's office and the U.S. Attorney are looking into Johnson's complaint. [37]
                                              Montana

                                              On October 5, 2008, the Republican Lt. Governor of Montana, John Bohlinger, accused the Montana Republican Party of vote caging to purge 6,000 voters from three counties which trend Democratic. These purges included decorated war veterans and active duty soldiers.[18]
                                              Ohio

                                              Wait times of six hours were reported for early voting in Franklin County, leading to people leaving the line without voting.[34]
                                              Wisconsin

                                              The Republican Party attempted to have all 60,000 voters in the heavily Democratic city of Milwaukee who had registered since January 1, 2006, deleted from the voter rolls. The requests were rejected by the Milwaukee Election Commission with Republican commissioner Bob Spindell voting in favor of deletion."[38]
                                              2010 Maryland gubernatorial election

                                              In the Maryland gubernatorial election in 2010, the campaign of Republican candidate Bob Ehrlich hired a consultant who advised that "the first and most desired outcome is voter suppression", in the form of having "African-American voters stay home."[39] To that end, the Republicans placed thousands of Election Day robocalls to Democratic voters, telling them that the Democratic candidate, Martin O'Malley, had won, although in fact the polls were still open for some two more hours.[40] The Republicans' call, worded to seem as if it came from Democrats, told the voters, "Relax. Everything's fine. The only thing left is to watch it on TV tonight."[39] The calls reached 112,000 voters in majority-African American areas.[40] In 2011, Ehrlich's campaign manager, Paul Schurick, was convicted of fraud and other charges because of the calls.[39][40] In 2012, he was sentenced to 30 days of home detention, a one-year suspended jail sentence, and 500 hours of community service over the four years of his probation, with no fine or jail time.[41][dead link]
                                              2012 Florida

                                              A Florida law passed in 2011 by the Florida legislature which reduced the days available for early voting, barred voter-registration activities of groups like the League of Women Voters, and made it more difficult to vote for voters who since the last election had moved to a different county within the state. Jim Greer, the main source cited in the Palm Beach Post article sentence to 18 months for embezzling from the Florida Republican Party.[42][43] A majority of early voting ballots cast in 2008 were cast by Democratic voters, and minority voters are more likely to move. The reason given by Republican politicians for the law was to reduce cost and to deter voter fraud, however the former senior Republican officials revealed that the true drivers of the law were GOP political consultants who were seeking ways to suppress the Democratic vote.[44]

                                              Several factors, including the reduction in early voting, reductions in the number of polling places, and an unusually lengthy ballot that included 11 detailed constitutional amendments, all combined to produce long lines on election day, with waits of several hours.[45] By one estimate, the result was that at least 201,000 likely voters did not vote, either leaving the line in frustration or not even getting on line when they saw how long it would take.[45]
                                              Republicans Admit Voter ID Laws Are Aimed at Democratic Voters - The Daily Beast

                                              Moving on to 2012

                                              The 2012 election cycle saw the greatest rollback on voting rights since the post-Reconstruction era. Largely driven by a spate of new laws and policies, including new restrictions on the type of ID that voters can use and flawed voter purges, conservative legislatures stopped at nothing to make it harder to register to vote, harder to cast a ballot, and harder to have a vote counted.

                                              But there was another story this year, a story of voter protection and democracy advocates who fought back -- and won.

                                              10. Missouri tries to sell voter suppression as "voter protection."

                                              Hoping to get a piece of the photo ID pie, Missouri legislators introduced a photo ID ballot initiative under the misleading name "Voter Protection Act." Advancement Project and co-counsel challenged the measure in 2011, arguing that there is nothing "protective" about placing unnecessary restrictions on the right to vote -- restrictions that could disenfranchise up to 250,000 Missouri voters.

                                              This year a judge agreed that the initiative's deceptive language failed to inform citizens of what, exactly, they'd be voting on. It was removed from the 2012 ballot.

                                              9. Ohio meddles with its wildly successful early voting period.

                                              Ohio lawmakers got to planning back in 2010 when, for no legitimate reason, they eliminated the last three days of early voting (except for active-duty military or voting overseas). It's no coincidence that African-American voters are more likely to cast early ballots, and in 2008, when Obama won the state, nearly 100,000 Ohioans voted during those last three days of early voting.

                                              This year the Obama campaign filed a lawsuit to restore the early voting period for all Ohio voters. Despite attempts from the right to mischaracterize the suit as trying to revoke voting rights from military members, a judge agreed with the Obama campaign that a two-tiered voting system is unconstitutional - -and the last three days of early voting were reinstated for everybody.

                                              8. Wisconsin and Ohio get ominous billboards in communities of color.

                                              During the final weeks before Election Day, we saw a wave of intimidation tactics. In Wisconsin and Ohio, billboards popped up in primarily African-American neighborhoods, depicting a gavel and ominously threatening, "Voter Fraud is a Felony! Up to 3 1/2 yrs and a $10,000 Fine" -- clearly designed to intimidate and confuse people of color away from voting.

                                              After a national outcry, letters and petitions, the billboards (the work of the Einhorn Family Foundation, a conservative Milwaukee nonprofit) were removed from both states. To let voters know that we had their back, a coalition of groups, including Advancement Project, placed our own billboards in the same neighborhoods with the empowering messages: "When We Vote, We Are All Equal" and "Stand Up and Have Your Say. VOTE!"

                                              7. Ohio to voters: If election officials make a mistake, too bad.

                                              Previously under Ohio law, election officials threw out all provisional ballots cast in the wrong precinct, even if a voter was following a poll worker's instructions- - and even if the voter was in the right polling place but in the wrong line! This affected thousands of black voters, whose communities are more likely to have several precincts grouped together in a single polling place. These voters were going to the right location, but poll workers sometimes directed them to the wrong table or provided the wrong ballot.

                                              Reasoning that voters shouldn't be disenfranchised for a poll worker's error, Advancement Project took Ohio to court. A judge had the common sense to order that those ballots be counted.

                                              6. Florida targets "Souls to the Polls."

                                              The Florida legislature reduced the state's early voting window from two weeks to eight days. The move expressly took out the Sunday before Election Day, the date when black churches organized successful statewide "Souls to the Polls" campaigns encouraging their congregants to vote. Coincidence?

                                              Not according to former Florida Republican Party Chair Jim Greer, who admitted the party held meetings about strategies (including reductions in early voting) for "keeping blacks from voting." Former Governor Charlie Crist also said that during his term, GOP leaders approached him about changing early voting in an effort to weaken Democratic turnout. But the plan backfired, as Florida's Black voter turnout exceeded 2008's historic levels.

                                              5. Florida takes on the Boy Scouts and League of Women Voters.

                                              Not content with just making it harder to vote, Florida legislators also made it harder to register to vote. A 2011 law placed onerous requirements and penalties on voter registration drives. All completed registration forms, for example, had to be submitted to election officials within 48 hours or face a fine of $1,000 per application. The law had its intended effect: many groups, including the Boy Scouts and the League of Women Voters, shut down their voter registration operations in Florida as a result.

                                              Although damage was done during the 12 months that the law stood (registration dropped by a staggering 14 percent), in 2012 a federal court struck it down for disproportionately affecting voters of color, who are more likely to register from voter registration drives. Despite this setback, in the end, Black and Latino voters still came out in record-breaking numbers.

                                              4. Ohio: No convenient voting hours for anybody!

                                              Ohio Secretary of State Jon Husted decided to further chip away at voting in the state by denying expanded early voting hours in only Democratic-leaning urban counties -- just as hours were expanded in solidly Republican rural and suburban ones.

                                              After public outcry over the flagrant disparity, Secretary Husted ordered that all Ohio counties must vote by the same standard. But rather than extending voting days and hours in urban districts, he eliminated weekend voting and slashed hours in all districts across the state. Although voting got less convenient under the new rules, Black voters in Ohio came out in historic numbers, making up 15 percent of the state's electorate.

                                              3. Pennsylvania's voter ID plan (or lack thereof) falls apart.

                                              Less than eight months before Election Day, Pennsylvania passed one of the nation's strictest photo ID laws -- despite the state's admission that there had never been a single instance of voter impersonation in the state, even though more than 750,000 registered voters in the state lacked the required forms of identification, and the state had no plan for issuing enough ID cards in time. If there were any doubts of the partisan motive, Pennsylvania House Majority Leader Mike Turzai put them to rest after boasting that the law would "allow Governor Romney to win."

                                              After a lawsuit brought by Advancement Project and partners, a court concurred that Pennsylvania officials were in over their heads, and that the law would disenfranchise voters. It was blocked for the 2012 elections.

                                              2. Florida plots an embarrassingly flawed, error-ridden voter purge.

                                              Apparently unsatisfied by the extent of their other suppression efforts, this year Florida threatened to purge thousands of registered voters from the voter rolls based on suspicion of their citizenship status. Using flawed data, the state sent letters to more than 2,600 registered voters (mostly of color -- many of whom were citizens) saying they'd be kicked off the rolls unless they provided proof of citizenship within 30 days. In Miami, where most of the targeted voters live, more than 98 percent of 562 people who responded proved that they were in fact eligible citizens.

                                              When a coalition of groups, including Advancement Project, sued, the state backed down. Officials agreed to restore to the rolls anyone who was removed without proof of their being a non-citizen, and to inform those voters that they were indeed registered.

                                              1. Texas gets rejected - -twice -- over blatantly discriminatory voting changes.
                                              The Lone Star State geared up for a number of voting changes beginning in 2011, designed to make voting harder in 2012. First, state lawmakers passed a strict photo ID law that made only five documents acceptable for voting: a state-issued driver's license or identification card, a military photo ID, a passport, a U.S. citizenship certificate with a photo, or a concealed-carry handgun license. They followed up with a redistricting plan that changed districts belonging to incumbents of color, while making no such alterations to districts represented by White incumbents. Fortunately, these plans never saw the light of day.

                                              After concluding this year that both policies would reduce the voting power of people of color and the poor, a federal court struck them down. The state's redistricting map was so blatant, in fact, the court said lawmakers had intentionally discriminated against Latino voters.

                                              Judith Browne Dianis: Top 10 Voter Suppression Moments of 2012
                                              North Carolina Passes the Country's Worst Voter Suppression Law | The Nation
                                              Late last night, the North Carolina legislature passed the country's worst voter suppression law after only three days of debate. Rick Hasen of Election Law Blog called it "the most sweeping anti-voter law in at least decades" The bill mandates strict voter ID to cast a ballot (no student IDs, no public employee IDs, etc.), even though 318,000 registered voters lack the narrow forms of acceptable ID according to the state's own numbers and there have been no recorded prosecutions of voter impersonation in the past decade. The bill cuts the number of early voting days by a week, even though 56 percent of North Carolinians voted early in 2012. The bill eliminates same-day voter registration during the early voting period, even though 96,000 people used it during the general election in 2012 and states that have adopted the convenient reform have the highest voter turnout in the country. African-Americans are 23 percent of registered voters in the state, but made up 28 percent of early voters in 2012, 33 percent of those who used same-day registration and 34 percent of those without state-issued ID.

                                              And that's just the start of it. In short, the bill eliminates practically everything that encourages people to vote in North Carolina, replaced by unnecessary and burdensome new restrictions. At the same time, the bill expands the influence of unregulated corporate influence in state elections. Just what our democracy needs--more money and less voting!
                                              12 Very Real Voter-Suppression Tactics Experts Now Worry Will Come Back - CityLab

                                              Column: Voter Suppression Is the Real Racist Rage | Valley News

                                              here's the suppression by voter purge tactic, for which Rick Scott is especially famous. Just the number of voters Scott erroneously purged as felons in 2012 exceed the total number of actual fraud cases in both of the studies President Obama cited. This doesn't include the number of people wrongfully purged as non-citizens. It also excludes a number of people that Scott tried to purge after the legal deadline.

                                              Moreover, purging eligible voters is not limited to Florida.

                                              Kansas is investigating what led to an erroneous purge of 4,838 from Cherokee County voter rolls in 2011. According to Cherokee County Clerk, Rodney Edmonson, people were wrongly purged because they hadn't voted in two consecutive or state elections, which is not a cause for purging under Kansas law. The problem doesn't end there. Under Kansas law, when a name is selected for removal from the rolls, a confirmation must be mailed to the home in question to verify if the person has moved. If there isn't a response to the mailing, that is when a person can be purged from the rolls. However, the confirmation mailing was not sent to most, if not all, of the people wrongfully identified to be purged.

                                              Voter gestapo organizations like the Voter Integrity Project (financed by NC's Koch friend, Art Pope) are trying to purge voters with pre-election challenges.

                                              In Buncome County, The voter Integrity project tried to get 182 people purged last month. The Board of elections rejected 86 of those challenges.

                                              The 95 remaining challenges were considered during a 20 minute meeting last week. According to Asheville-Buncombe League of Women Voters, 85 of the people named during that meeting are registered at a homeless shelter. If they were homeless, they probably didn't know about the meeting which would explain why they didn't appear at it.

                                              Some states have given election gestapo groups like True the Vote and the Voter Integrity Project additional powers on Election Day.

                                              In North Carolina, Art Pope's election gestapo, the Voter Integrity Project, now has the power to challenge any voter in any district.

                                              Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, gave the Koch Brother funded True the Vote and other "poll observers" the new power of standing as close as 3 feet from voters while they are registering to vote and as they are processed by election officials. This is a form of intimidation because it means these "observers" will be standing in close physical proximity as they are being processed. Also, voter rolls are public information, but under this new rule, "poll observers" can match a face to a specific name and address.

                                              Local officials are using a variety of tactics guaranteed to create even longer lines.

                                              In one Florida county, half the voting locations were eliminated. It comes as no surprise that occurred in a district comprised mainly of minority voters. If the same number of people are voting, but there are dramatically fewer locations at which to vote, wait times will increase substantially. It also means people will have to travel further to vote, discouraging more voters.

                                              As if that wasn't enough, some poll places in Dade Country, Florida won't allow voters to use restrooms. This may not sound like a bit deal - unless voters must also wait in line for several hours in order to vote.

                                              Having access to restrooms is something many of us might not realize is a human right. In California, some activists are fighting a policy of closing public restrooms several hours a day on the basis that it violates the human rights of homeless people who really have no other acceptable option. Interestingly, this is roughly the same duration for which certain voters in Miami Dade would be denied access to a restroom.

                                              For some voters, this restriction amounts to a physical bar that will be impossible to overcome in the name of exercising their right to vote.

                                              Weird and Extreme Republican Voter Suppression Tricks for 2014
                                              Republican voter suppression rationales: Why “voter integrity” is nonsense.

                                              Timeline: The Long History of Voter Suppression | Mother Jones

                                              Republican voter suppression rationales: Why “voter integrity” is nonsense.
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                                • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                                  Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                  In the quote below Tim states that "the people" (there's no arguing inclusion or lack of inclusion here) who want ids are trying to keep down "certain" groups. Smacks of calling everyone with that opinion a racist or, at the very least, some other -ist.



                                  Here you state that 99%, basically all, racists exist on the right. The insinuation here is that the right = racism. Ergo rightist = racist.
                                  No one said all people on the right are racists, I just said that 99% of the known racists in this society just happen to be on the right.

                                  OK, 99% may be a little high.

                                  (I'm sure you can find a few statements by people on the left also)

                                  IMHO, its just a coincidence that some of the groups the Voter ID laws are designed to suppress are minorities as lots of young people would have been affected also.

                                  The GOP wouldn't care who they suppress as long as it's by and large people who would vote against them.

                                  If this country was a homogeneous one and the situation was the same - like the GOP losing 5 of the last 6 popular votes - this modern day GOP would do the same thing.

                                  Just The Facts...

                                  - It's just a fact that 90+% of the racists in this country just happen to also be on the right.

                                  Birtherism proves my point.

                                  - It's just a fact that 99% of anti-scientific climate change deniers are on the right.

                                  An entire political party is holding up the country in dealing with this very serious problem.

                                  - It's just a fact that 99% of the people saying loony things about women, their role in society and very importantly their reproductive rights, happen to be on the right side of the isle.

                                  Legitimate rape? The female body can shut that thing down? Forced ultra sounds? Trying to take away a woman's right to choose? And this is from people who can't stop hollering freedom and liberty every chance they get.

                                  - 99% of the gun nuts and I mean NUTS!!! also happen to be on the right side of the political ledger.

                                  I rest my case with the open carry laws.


                                  That just the reality of the way the cookie has crumbled in modern day America.

                                  I've covered social, environmental, gender and public safety issues.

                                  Can someone please help me understand why their economic philosophy would be any better than the looniness they've shown on these other issues?
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                    Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post


                                    Just The Facts...

                                    - It's just a fact that 90+% of the racists in this country just happen to also be on the right.

                                    Birtherism proves my point.

                                    - It's just a fact that 99% of anti-scientific climate change deniers are on the right.

                                    An entire political party is holding up the country in dealing with this very serious problem.

                                    - It's just a fact that 99% of the people saying loony things about women, their role in society and very importantly their reproductive rights, happen to be on the right side of the isle.

                                    Legitimate rape? The female body can shut that thing down? Forced ultra sounds? Trying to take away a woman's right to choose? And this is from people who can't stop hollering freedom and liberty every chance they get.

                                    - 99% of the gun nuts and I mean NUTS!!! also happen to be on the right side of the political ledger.

                                    I rest my case with the open carry laws.
                                    I don't see a single fact in your entire diatribe, TL. What I see are a bunch of opinions with made up statistics.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                                      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                      I don't see a single fact in your entire diatribe, TL. What I see are a bunch of opinions with made up statistics.
                                      Wow, I think I saw all those same soundbites on CNBC recently. :p
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                                    • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                                      Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                                      I don't see a single fact in your entire diatribe, TL. What I see are a bunch of opinions with made up statistics.
                                      And one plus one equals three.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                                        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                                        And one plus one equals three.
                                        Apparently, to you. And that's a fact.
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                              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                                I don't have a big problem with voter ID, just don't try to sleaze it in right before a POTUS election.

                                IMHO there should be a very long phase in period.
                                I agree with that.

                                The truth is though, that even in that lead opinion that John Paul Stevens wrote he talks about partisan politics. OK, they decided it was constitutional, but they also said it was done for partisan reasons and there wasn't one case of voter fraud presented in that SC case.

                                Again, I ask how stopping voting on a Sunday can be considered anything but voter suppression?
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                              • Profile picture of the author seasoned
                                Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                                I have not called or alluded to anyone in here being a racist and neither has Tim - to the best of my knowledge.

                                Suppressing the vote does not have to be in and of itself racist - it's just a political strategy.

                                All I said was since 99% of the ugly racists and 99% of the anti-scientific climate change deniers are on the right...

                                ... IMHO...

                                ... it would seem that decent minded people would also question what else the racists and anti-scientific climate change deniers are bringing to the table.

                                Could they be so ugly on a important social issue as race and also way wrong on such an vital issue - like climate change and be right about anything else really important - such as the American economy? What makes it tick? How to grow the middle class etc.?


                                I think not, but that's just me.


                                I don't have a big problem with voter ID, just don't try to sleaze it in right before a POTUS election.

                                IMHO there should be a very long phase in period.
                                You like memes. Here'san appropriate one:


                                Steve
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                          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                            And unfortunately their side is littered with 99% of the racists and 99% of the climate change deniers.

                            You would think it would give decent minded people at least a couple of good reasons to seriously question the role they've decided to play in American history - but it is not to be.


                            Maybe you can help me understand what's driving them.
                            Why unfortunately? Would you be happy if it were 50/50?

                            Decent minded people wonder why anyone with half a brain would want to be tethered to government largess for life - would want their neighbors and friends dependent on government for life. We know why the leaders of those people want it - who would ever vote to cut off the milk flow from the nipple?

                            We know why some people deny voter fraud exists - because it allows them to game the system with impunity. We all know which side benefits from it.

                            You'll never be able to understand what drives us. To you, 'freedom' and 'liberty' are concepts to be made fun of and pay lip service to in your quest for 'equality'. Your world is made up of oppressors and victims. Your policies don't work, but you don't want to face up to that truth. You know they don't work, but you say it's because they didn't go far enough, refusing to admit that they are flawed.

                            You'll never understand us, because you don't truly believe in liberty, and you don't believe in freedom, they are foreign concepts to you. You believe in the government over the individual.

                            The truth is, you are scared of what drives us.

                            I realize that you asked a rhetorical question, that you really don't want to understand, do you? It would upset your apple cart.
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                          • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                            And unfortunately their side is littered with 99% of the racists and 99% of the climate change deniers.
                            Pure unadulterated nonsense! :rolleyes: If you want to start talking statistics why don't you find some real statistics to talk about --> not bogus statistics blown from directly from your backside.

                            Cheers
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                      • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
                        Banned
                        Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                        They also know they couldn't out fundraise the dems using the old system so the SC jumps in with Citizens United allowing unlimited and dark money into the process.
                        I get tired of hearing complaints about the Citizens United ruling and dark money when it comes from hard core donks. So I suppose you are real peachy with the left buying 5 of the last 6 popular votes with armored car loads of disclosed cash, eh?

                        Check out the top 25 heavy hitters from 1989-2014:

                        31 little donkeys

                        3 little elephants

                        8 relatively neutrals

                        No elephants to be seen in the top 16 mega donors... Not one.

                        https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

                        Elections are being bought and paid for with $$$ and media coverage. No voter ID law is going to outweigh large $$$ and negative media coverage and anyone that thinks otherwise may need a reality check.

                        I must admit Chiplote is probably my favorite fast food joint and it's too bad this entire mess got stirred up.

                        Cheers

                        -don
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            By the way, the people who want to start asking for ids to vote aren't doing it to stop voter fraud.
            Oh, really? So, you know my opinion better than I do now? All this time, I thought I just didn't want the same person to vote numerous times. Here it turns out that my desires are far more nefarious! Thanks, Tim, for telling me what I think.

            Only in America can an ID be required to buy beer, cigarettes, lottery tickets or to cash a check, but be too onerous to be required to vote.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            That image is on businessinsider and forbes also so far.

            By the way, the people who want to start asking for ids to vote aren't doing it to stop voter fraud. That's only what they want you to think. The only reason they are doing it is to keep the vote down for certain groups of people. It's all for political reasons. They also are the same people who want to stop the voting on Sundays, which also is a way to keep the vote down for certain groups of people. Tell me how stopping voting on Sundays will stop nonexistent voter fraud.
            SERIOUSLY! I have asked this for YEARS, and NOBODY answered me! I have determined that TWO groups are "disenfranchised" by not having IDs. BOTH are typically WHITE, and don't WANT to vote!

            So HOW doesasking for IDs limit other groups. PLEASE, TELL ME!!!!!! I have NEVER heard it explained! I have had a license since I was about 16! If I couldn't get a license, I could get a state ID.

            PLEASE! LET US KNOW!!!!!!!! For that matter, how is SUNDAY significant?

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author ErinWalsh
    I skimmed over the story when I first saw it on my FB feed, but thought "anyone who waves their gun around threatening people deserves to be banned."

    To find out it's some open carry guys going about their business and having a meal and a mom's group got bent out of shape. *Sigh* I WISH I could say that surprises me, but some of these mom's groups go out of their way to make anyone who isn't them miserable.

    I'm glad I read this thread and am now educated on what happened.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    The word "wave", in this sense, I think is inflammatory too. A criminal/terrorist/kidnapper/robber waves their gun around to spread fear and get people to cooperate and if they don't the waving action indicates that someone may get shot.

    No matter which side of the aisle you are on, I can't think of ANY person with half a brain that would like or accept someone coming in a restaurant (or most anywhere) waving a weapon. Start waving and people start getting ready to defend themselves. But, and this is a big BUT, holding or carrying (which can be scary too) is totally different than waving.

    Chipotle didn't have the word wave or any derivative of the word in its request from what I have seen.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Lol at the link in OP, that image looks like Beavis and Butt-head are off to join the Army.

    As usual that image is probably taken out of context especially considering the political popup on the page belly aching about people talking about Hillary & her health.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Lol at the link in OP, that image looks like Beavis and Butt-head are off to join the Army.

      As usual that image is probably taken out of context especially considering the political popup on the page belly aching about people talking about Hillary & her health.
      The caption should have read...... "Two idiots trying to make you believe they have actually used, own, and are comfortable with guns!"! SERIOUSLY, some 2year olds might have been more believable!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    OK TIM! I guess you STILL don't want to give an answer! They have found THOUSANDS of invalid votes! One wonders how many there REALLY were. Did you even LOOK at the link Kay put up? A person committed FRAUD and confessed to voting 2 to 3 times. She claimed that one was for her sister,who was in a COMA! MOST people in COMAs DIE! MOST others know NOTHING of the recent events. In any case, she was NOT COMPETENT and shouldn't have been allowed to vote. USUALLY, nobody cares about it, because THEY CAN'T VOTE!!!!! But her sister simply voted twice for her picks. She was CONVICTED, and thrown in jail for FIVE YEARS!

    Her party fought for "a more reasonable sentence", and she was released after a year. Al sharpton HUGGED her for the fraud!

    And she wasn't the only one.

    And what of the black panthers, threatening people at the polls in 2008? Everything lined up, tons of evidence against them, it was going to court, and Holder STOPPED IT! He should have been disbarred, and thrown out for that.

    So there is PLENTY of fraud!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Talk about GASLIGHTING! INTERESTING!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    Pure political hackery, Tim Phelan. Voter fraud goes both ways.

    https://www.askheritage.org/how-does...lection-fraud/

    Here are some highlights from the article above (you'll immediately discredit the source, but the numbers are the numbers):

    *Even former liberal Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens agrees. Stevens wrote in a 6-3 majority opinion upholding an Indiana voter ID law: “That flagrant examples of [voter] fraud…have been documented throughout this Nation’s history by respected historians and journalists…demonstrate[s] that not only is the risk of voter fraud real but that it could affect the outcome of a close election.”

    *70 percent of likely U.S. voters believe that voters “should be required to show photo identification such as a driver’s license before being allowed to cast their ballot,”
    69% Say Photo ID Voting Laws Are Not Discriminatory - Rasmussen Reportsâ„¢

    *the number of people who don’t already have a photo ID is incredibly small. An American University survey in Maryland, Indiana, and Mississippi found that less than one-half of 1 percent of registered voters lacked a government-issued ID, and a 2006 survey of more than 36,000 voters found that only “23 people in the entire sample–less than one-tenth of one percent of reported voters” were unable to vote because of an ID requirement. What about those who don’t have photo IDs? Von Spakovsky notes that “every state that has passed a voter ID law has also ensured that the very small percentage of individuals who do not have a photo ID can easily obtain one for free if they cannot afford one.”


    I also don't understand the issues with the voting days. You know well in advance when you're voting. Get your shit in order so you can make it. If you know you can't make it, get an absentee ballot.

    If you can't figure out how to get an ID, even when it's free, and also can't figure out when to vote during the well established times, I'm not certain your vote was all that well thought out. I say this regardless of your race, religion or creed.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      their side is littered with 99% of the racists
      Wondered when that card would get played in this thread. It gets old.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    The basics of how elections are supposed to work is this:

    One United States citizen, living in a particular place, that is over the age of 18, gets one vote for a candidate that is qualified to run for office in that particular place.

    Of course there may other qualifying factors such as mental incapacity but let's stick with the basic premise for the follow up question:

    How do you propose to ensure those basic qualifications are met?

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Voter fraud should be a concern for small, local elections. However, for a presidential election, voter fraud is very likely statistically insignifigant. An unless someone has some verifiable data, we should assume voter fraud would be distributed equally across both parties, in effect canceling each other out in a large national election.

    If voter fraud is a true concern, it would seem to me the real way to test for fairness would be to also include a provision in any legislation to have an ID drive in the areas that need it most. This wouldn't simply mean giving out free IDs, but also include taking ID mobile trucks and open registrations at local schools and churches in the areas that would be affected by the ID requirements. Real democracy should NEVER be too expensive, and this option ain't even that expensive.

    How many of the people that want tougher voter ID laws have done anything to help those that need it to get IDs? Where are the voter fraud laws being/been proposed? Is there a statistical bias in these areas that indicates the ID requirements have political motivation, or are they spread out without bias? Aren't these a truer testsof real motives?

    In a real democracy, voting should be made as easy as possible. Voters should choose politicians, not politicians choose voters. Any attempt to restrict and make voting harder for any people is not democracy. If voting becomes harder, even for a legit reason such as voter fraud, counter measures should be put in place to help American citizens be able to vote.


    5 Republicans Who Are Getting Honest About Voter ID Laws | Care2 Causes
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        LOL - so it's everyone else's fault that some don't have IDs. I get it...
        Nice non-sequitor. Why do you see fault when there is none? If you were truly concerned about democracy and voter fraud, you wouldn't have a problem with making IDs easier to get.

        Try spending a little less time pointing fingers next time.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Nice non-sequitor. Why do you see fault when there is none? If you were truly concerned about democracy and voter fraud, you wouldn't have a problem with making IDs easier to get.

          Try spending a little less time pointing fingers next time.
          LOL - yeah I reread that and thought it inappropriate - so I deleted it.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Here's a thought! Rather than think that the ratio of voter fraud in both parties will always exist, and to the same degree, and thus argue to make it EASY, why don't we make it HARD!?!??! If I can't even fly to another state without ID, though I could prove to people that I am HARMLESS, WHY should some STRANGER be able to vote in a way that could affect my life FOREVER, without ID? SERIOUSLY! People at airports have gotten to know me on sight! Some even know my name because they have seen boarding tickets so often. Yet I STILL get my ID checked!

    And YKW would not even let people come to any place he has control of and is in unless they get CARDED!!!!!!!!

    I have STILL not been given a REASON why asking for ID is racist. I have literally BEGGED! I can't do anymore than this over the internet. I HAVE asked people in person though. I have done it dozens of times, over the past maybe 6-7 years. I would say decades, but I didn't hear this nonsense until almost a decade ago.

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Back to the crazies carrying guns out in the open...

    My state ain't perfect but I'm so glad I live in a state that will not allow that type of crap.

    With all the loonies in this society, the last thing I want to see is armed men while I'm trying to have a meal with the family or just going about my business while out in public.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

      Back to the crazies carrying guns out in the open...

      I'm so glad I live in a state that will not allow that type of crap.

      With all the loonies in this society, the last thing I want to see is armed men while I'm trying to have a meal with the family or just going about my business while out in public.
      WOW, you are responding SO much and don't even realize what you are responding to!


      ACK.... The HORROR!!!!! THIS is more realistic and war like than the picture in the OP! At least HERE, they intend to shoot!

      Steve
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