Senate Votes 93-3 to Fund VA Expansion

by BigFrank Banned
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Guess which 3 losers voted no. Unbelievable. Worthless and despicable.

Finally, something to actually cheer about. - Frank
  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Are they using some of the funds to recruit more doctors? It takes me 2-3 months to get in to see a nurse practitioner. The closest doctor is about 100 miles from me, and of course, it takes just as long to get in there.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Are they using some of the funds to recruit more doctors?
      Yes!
      It takes me 2-3 months to get in to see a nurse practitioner.
      Is that at a VA Outpatient Clinic? If, so - that's outrageous.
      The closest doctor is about 100 miles from me, and of course, it takes just as long to get in there.
      If that's a VA doctor you may qualify for a voucher to see a local physician.

      Stay tuned. Big things are coming, I wish you well.

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Yes!
        Is that at a VA Outpatient Clinic? If, so - that's outrageous.
        Yes, it is. I had a doctor when I first started going there but he left after a year for private practice. They haven't been able to replace him. That especially sucked because he was the first doctor I've had that I thought really cared.

        If that's a VA doctor you may qualify for a voucher to see a local physician.
        Well, so far we have to see the NP, and sometimes he'll refer us to a doctor in Tomah, but that's a hundred miles from here. The only time we can see a local doctor is if it's an emergency.

        Unless things have changed that I'm not aware of.

        Don't get me wrong, the people at the outpatient clinic seem to care, and for the most part do a pretty good job, they're just understaffed badly. There have been a few minor problems, but nothing major.

        Stay tuned. Big things are coming, I wish you well.
        Thanks, same here.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Yes, it is. I had a doctor when I first started going there but he left after a year for private practice. They haven't been able to replace him.
          This is one of the largest problems at the VA. They hire many doctors from other countries and once they get some experience and their first job offer from outside the VA - they bolt. I was seeing a pain management specialist at the Wilmington VA who after a 20 minute examination prescribed a medication that totally eliminated crippling neck pain that I had dealt with for over a decade. She left close to a year ago and has not been replaced and now I hear that she is never going to be replaced. The care has been transferred to my already overworked primary care physician at the outpatient clinic. He has confided to me that he has absolutely no extra training in pain management. I told him to just keep my prescription coming and I'd be fine.
          That especially sucked because he was the first doctor I've had that I thought really cared.
          There is absolutely nothing more disheartening than that. It's soul crushing.
          Well, so far we have to see the NP, and sometimes he'll refer us to a doctor in Tomah, but that's a hundred miles from here. The only time we can see a local doctor is if it's an emergency.
          That's something, at least. If you ever need it, you'll be glad that option exists.
          Unless things have changed that I'm not aware of.
          Well, they are beginning to change, now. I'm not trying to be a smart ass when I suggest that you attempt to read at least a synopsis of the legislation to try to ascertain which provisions are going to directly impact your level of care. It is up to you to develop a plan based on the upcoming changes that will allow you to get the most out of them. Knowledge truly is power, but unfortunately you need to be your own best advocate. Truth be told, you need to approach this as if no one else cares whether or not you live or die. That's the reality you must face. If you wait for people to inform you the day may come where you risk your own life simply by not being up on the benefits available to you.

          The reason why I continually laud the care I get at the VA is because I learned all I could in how to maximize what the system had to offer me and I make sure that my caregivers know that I am fully cognizant of what is available to me and that I refuse to accept anything less than 100% of what I have coming. I have no problem looking them in the eye and informing them that when I volunteered for Vietnam at the age of 16 that I gave 100% and that I demand nothing less than a 100% effort from them.

          Again, today, someone accused me of being a "dick" because I refuse to let anyone get away with things that most people would let go right by them. Damn right I'm a dick. lol You can call me a dick as long as you're giving me what I need. I could care less how I am perceived by another humanoid as long as my needs are met. Until you adopt this stance with the VA you will never get the best treatment available to you. I can assure you of this. Trying to be 'Mr. Nice Guy' is for losers. Don't get me wrong. I treat everyone at the VA with dignity, respect, appreciation, patience and I'm as 'nice as pie,' until the precise second that I know they are falling down on the job. Then I read them the riot act, tell them that their superior will be getting a call, first from me and then from my Congressman unless they immediately get their ass in gear and deliver the quality care that the nation promised me. Yeah - I'm a dick, alright. lol

          Don't get me wrong, the people at the outpatient clinic seem to care, and for the most part do a pretty good job, they're just understaffed badly. There have been a few minor problems, but nothing major.
          Most do care - especially if they have served, themselves. Still, they are never going to care as much as you need because they have hundreds of people to be concerned about, but you only have yourself.

          Do the math.

          Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        The Sanders-McCain Bill?
        Excellent.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

    Guess which 3 losers voted no. Unbelievable. Worthless and despicable.

    Finally, something to actually cheer about. - Frank
    Um, Moe, Larry and Curly?

    (Well you said guess...)
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

      Um, Moe, Larry and Curly?

      (Well you said guess...)
      Lucifer, Satan and Beelzebub. Yeah - I know. Same guy. lol You get my point.

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    As a Veteran, I know I can use the VA, but I never have. I've always been lucky to have good health care coverage.

    Reading about all of this recently - and here right now - I hope I never have to use it.

    Actually what I REALLY hope is it gets fixed. REALLY fixed.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

      As a Veteran, I know I can use the VA, but I never have. I've always been lucky to have good health care coverage.

      Reading about all of this recently - and here right now - I hope I never have to use it.
      Most veterans are very happy with the level of care they get at the VA. Recent surveys have put the number at 82%.

      It's the wait times that are bad and of course, can be dangerous.
      Actually what I REALLY hope is it gets fixed. REALLY fixed.
      Until this week, the GOP said, "The nation can't afford to fix it." Let that sink in for a minute.

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Most veterans are very happy with the level of care they get at the VA. Recent surveys have put the number at 82%.

        It's the wait times that are bad and of course, can be dangerous.
        Better than I thought, but still has a lot of room for improvement.

        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Until this week, the GOP said, "The nation can't afford to fix it." Let that sink in for a minute.

        Cheers. - Frank
        What do politicians know. Fact is they're probably right from a financial perspective. But we have a storied history in this country for spending money we don't have - so let's spend it on important stuff. Like the VA.

        As for left or right, I'm less interested in that. The left does the same crap with their agendas too. We need to ignore the "which party" BS and come together. Until that happens, things will get worse before they get better - and not just with the VA.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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          Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

          Better than I thought, but still has a lot of room for improvement.
          I doubt you'll ever see a figure higher than that in any healthcare survey.
          What do politicians know. Fact is they're probably right from a financial perspective. But we have a storied history in this country for spending money we don't have - so let's spend it on important stuff. Like the VA.
          The nation should not make promises that it can't afford to keep. If you can pay for war (which we didn't, actually) you need to pay for the aftermath of war. Plain and simple.
          As for left or right, I'm less interested in that. The left does the same crap with their agendas too. We need to ignore the "which party" BS and come together. Until that happens, things will get worse before they get better - and not just with the VA.
          That's totally bogus. I believe in calling out both sides when they screw up. Not placing blame at the feet of those that are screwing around with the lives of millions of veterans is what gives them the moxie to keep doing what they do. I'm sorry, but the folks on the Right are always ready, willing and able to send our troops off to war but they forget about them after they come home.

          It ain't BS. It's a demonstrable fact. Those that want to not blame "which party" screwed up, are generally aligned with the party that screwed up. Sorry. From where I sit I see it every day and I call out the Left whenever they screw up, also. Fair is fair. I'm no apologist for the Left.

          Bottom line - the Left said, "Yes" and the Right said, "No." Facts are facts.

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            I doubt you'll ever see a figure higher than that in any healthcare survey.
            The nation should not make promises that it can't afford to keep. If you can pay for war (which we didn't, actually) you need to pay for the aftermath of war. Plain and simple.
            That's totally bogus. I believe in calling out both sides when they screw up. Not placing blame at the feet of those that are screwing around with the lives of millions of veterans is what gives them the moxie to keep doing what they do. I'm sorry, but the folks on the Right are always ready, willing and able to send our troops off to war but they forget about them after they come home.

            It ain't BS. It's a demonstrable fact. Those that want to not blame "which party" screwed up, are generally aligned with the party that screwed up. Sorry. From where I sit I see it every day and I call out the Left whenever they screw up, also. Fair is fair. I'm no apologist for the Left.

            Bottom line - the Left said, "Yes" and the Right said, "No." Facts are facts.

            Cheers. - Frank
            And it must still pass the house. I'm crossing my fingers cause I have no idea what they'll do.
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            I doubt you'll ever see a figure higher than that in any healthcare survey.
            The nation should not make promises that it can't afford to keep. If you can pay for war (which we didn't, actually) you need to pay for the aftermath of war. Plain and simple.
            That's totally bogus. I believe in calling out both sides when they screw up. Not placing blame at the feet of those that are screwing around with the lives of millions of veterans is what gives them the moxie to keep doing what they do. I'm sorry, but the folks on the Right are always ready, willing and able to send our troops off to war but they forget about them after they come home.

            It ain't BS. It's a demonstrable fact. Those that want to not blame "which party" screwed up, are generally aligned with the party that screwed up. Sorry. From where I sit I see it every day and I call out the Left whenever they screw up, also. Fair is fair. I'm no apologist for the Left.

            Bottom line - the Left said, "Yes" and the Right said, "No." Facts are facts.

            Cheers. - Frank
            Well, you can keep it divided if that makes you feel better. I don't disagree about holding feet to the fire. My only point is I could care less which party they belong to. The FACT is they were all elected and should spend more time fixing problems and less time pointing fingers. BOTH sides. Otherwise it's nothing more than a "vote-getting" side show.

            That's my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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    It's beyond me how a vote of no could benefit any politician. Glad that an overhaul in underway and hope it improves health care for veterans.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      It's beyond me how a vote of no could benefit any politician.
      Unfathomable, isn't it? It's just an attempt to demonstrate that they are more 'fiscally responsible' than the next guy. That's all that matters to them. Consequences, be damned!

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Unfathomable, isn't it? It's just an attempt to demonstrate that they are more 'fiscally responsible' than the next guy. That's all that matters to them. Consequences, be damned!

        Cheers. - Frank
        I've got to disagree there.
        Being fiscally responsible is what all that voted yes showed.
        I'll be real surprised if they get reelected.
        With any luck Karma will kick in and they will lose their retirement and benefits when they are ousted.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Until this week, the GOP said, "The nation can't afford to fix it." Let that sink in for a minute.
      You are turning this into a political rant and it shouldn't be one. The VA budget has almost tripled since 911 under both administrations. Problem is - no oversight, no procedures, failed at computerization...and again, no oversight.

      I'm glad the bill went through but it's a typical DC 'cure'. They ignore the complaints that have been made for years now - until the public gets angry and then they pass a huge bill in 'reaction' AFTER it becomes a scandal. Yet the same govts did not protect whistleblowers at the VA.

      Change needs to start at ground level in the VA and work its way up. People need to be fired, jobs needs to be coordinated, computers systems need to be working, labor unions need to take a back seat to veterans.

      We should not accept excuses nor allow ourselves to be pulled into partisan conflicts over the care of our veterans. It crosses party lines and that's how it should be. We need a well-run system that SERVES our veterans as they have served us. and that system should work no matter who sits in the WH.

      And before Frank rants at me - NO, I'm not military. But many in my family are. I have two grand kids born (and one's life saved) at a VA hospital. A friend had heart surgery that kept him alive at a VA hospital. I've seen the best of what it can be and talked to many aging vets who make the trek to the VA hospital here and they have nothing but good to say about it.

      Maybe it's time to identify the VA hospitals that are WORKING so we know where we fail in the other facilities.
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      • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        You are turning this into a political rant and it shouldn't be one.
        Trust me, that is not my intention, but I'm sick of people defending the people that make things worse.
        The VA budget has almost tripled since 911 under both administrations. Problem is - no oversight, no procedures, failed at computerization...and again, no oversight.
        All true, but unfortunately the funding increases were still woefully inadquate for the job at hand.
        I'm glad the bill went through but it's a typical DC 'cure'.
        Where a cure was needed.
        They ignore the complaints that have been made for years now - until the public gets angry and then they pass a huge bill in 'reaction' AFTER it becomes a scandal. Yet the same govts did not protect whistle blowers at the VA.
        It still won't be enough to address the needs of an exploding increase of vets needing care. Unfortunately, this is going to be one of the largest drains on our national treasure for decades to come. The nation made a promise that must be kept - without ANY excuses being acceptable. None! I have already presented a list of all the ways this can be paid for, but the scared cows can't be slaughtered, apparently..
        Change needs to start at ground level in the VA and work its way up. People need to be fired, jobs needs to be coordinated, computers systems need to be working, labor unions need to take a back seat to veterans.
        I agree - 101%.
        We should not accept excuses nor allow ourselves to be pulled into partisan conflicts over the care of our veterans. It crosses party lines and that's how it should be. We need a well-run system that SERVES our veterans as they have served us. and that system should work no matter who sits in the WH.
        It SHOULD cross party lines - but up until now, it hasn't. We need to stop denying reality and hold the people accountable who are responsible for this travesty. Stop the enabling and the forgiving. Place blame where it needs to be before moving on to the utopian dream of 'coming together.' People need to be shamed. Period!
        And before Frank rants at me
        Gee - my reputation proceeds me. lol
        - NO, I'm not military. But many in my family are. I have two grand kids born (and one's life saved) at a VA hospital. A friend had heart surgery that kept him alive at a VA hospital. I've seen the best of what it can be and talked to many aging vets who make the trek to the VA hospital here and they have nothing but good to say about it.
        And I am lucky to say that I am one of those. This is not about MY care. I make sure I get great care. This is about those who are not as proficient at learning how to navigate the system. They shouldn't need to know how to navigate the system. They should not need to do anything beyond showing up at the door. Everything after that should be automatic, competent, caring and life sustaining.
        Maybe it's time to identify the VA hospitals that are WORKING so we know where we fail in the other facilities.
        Well, I'm not sure there are any real jewels in the crown and you won't find any that people don't complain about as it's a very personal relationship. Some are good and some - not so much.

        Still, we should have a way of identifying how progress is being made and a way to immediately jettison those that are impeding that progress.

        Heads MUST roll!

        Cheers. - Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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          I'm afraid this thread is doomed. As soon as it goes red/blue partisan politics, it's not going to live long.
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            I'm afraid this thread is doomed. As soon as it goes red/blue partisan politics, it's not going to live long.
            Just call it 'Kors Handbags' and it will outlive all of us!

            Cheers. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
              Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

              Just call it 'Kors Handbags' and it will outlive all of us!

              Cheers. - Frank

              Now, that right there is funny.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Frank -

          We need to stop denying reality and hold the people accountable who are responsible for this travesty.
          If that were going to happen there would have been an immediate shift of investigative resources to the VA when this first became public.

          We know that didn't happen - and won't happen. There will be coverups and finger pointing (always pointing away from self, of course).

          I don't think there is ONE person responsible. I think there are TWO administrations that share quite a bit of the responsibility.

          We have expanded the reach of the VA and the health conditions the system is to treat. It has served admins of both parties to talk up the VA system while not looking too closely into it.

          Everyone knows there are people "at fault" but it's not a few people - it's a political culture that makes statements of "we are doing this" and counts on those in jobs beneath them to make it happen. It hasn't been "happening". Placing blame isn't nearly as important as fixing the problems.

          I can't help but think if the VA were run like a military unit - it would work pretty well. Instead, it's run like a civilian business with union workers and people take shortcuts and ignore regulations and there is little to no accountability demanded by those at the top.
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Frank -

            If that were going to happen there would have been an immediate shift of investigative resources to the VA when this first became public.

            We know that didn't happen - and won't happen. There will be coverups and finger pointing (always pointing away from self, of course).

            I don't think there is ONE person responsible. I think there are TWO administrations that share quite a bit of the responsibility.

            We have expanded the reach of the VA and the health conditions the system is to treat. It has served admins of both parties to talk up the VA system while not looking too closely into it.

            Everyone knows there are people "at fault" but it's not a few people - it's a political culture that makes statements of "we are doing this" and counts on those in jobs beneath them to make it happen. It hasn't been "happening". Placing blame isn't nearly as important as fixing the problems.

            I can't help but think if the VA were run like a military unit - it would work pretty well. Instead, it's run like a civilian business with union workers and people take shortcuts and ignore regulations and there is little to no accountability demanded by those at the top.
            Again, we are in total agreement. This seriously has to stop. lol

            You're right. It should be placed under the D of D and just run like any other military unit where something called 'esprit de corps' can be utilized to maximum effectiveness.

            I'm all for it.

            Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author garyv
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post


            I can't help but think if the VA were run like a military unit - it would work pretty well. Instead, it's run like a civilian business with union workers and people take shortcuts and ignore regulations and there is little to no accountability demanded by those at the top.
            Actually, it's run like most typical government organizations - because it is one. And soon the rest of our health care system will be run the same way. - And throwing money at it is not the solution.

            But I agree with you Kay - if the VA were completely 100% military run, it would be outstanding. While in boot-camp, our base had a hospital and dentist that was completely run by military, and it was the picture of efficiency. While the military is government, it's not your typical government organization. I'm not anti-government - I'm just anti-waste-my-money.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            I don't think there is ONE person responsible. I think there are TWO administrations that share quite a bit of the responsibility.
            I think it goes back way farther than two administrations. There are Viet Nam vets who were exposed to agent orange who have never gotten adequate treatment. There are many VN era vets on the streets with mental disease that need treatment. They'll probably die on the streets.

            If any investigation is done, those most responsible probably won't be held responsible. More likely there would be a few fall guys to appease the public while the real culprits are held unaccountable.
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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              Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

              I think it goes back way farther than two administrations. There are Viet Nam vets who were exposed to agent orange who have never gotten adequate treatment.
              Actually there is no treatment for Dioxin poisoning, per se. The VA has identified certain conditions that directly relate to AO. The info is easily found on line. My Agent Orange award was because of diabetes and congestive heart failure.

              Additionally, a VA AO awarded is all but guaranteed just by applying. The requirements to prove your case have been greatly reduced. In most cases it's a matter of seeing where you were actually deployed and when. This data is then cross-referenced with dates and times of defoliant sprayings. If you were there, then - you get the award.
              There are many VN era vets on the streets with mental disease that need treatment. They'll probably die on the streets.
              I was one of them and while I hate to sound harsh, until they ask for help they are not going to get any. Many choose to not seek help out of hatred for the military and all connected to it, the VA being a prime example. Yes, some are too sick to even ask for help, but most can. The ones that can't I do not have an answer on how best to get them help, if they want it.
              If any investigation is done, those most responsible probably won't be held responsible. More likely there would be a few fall guys to appease the public while the real culprits are held unaccountable.
              Isn't that always the case?

              Cheers. - Frank
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              • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                Additionally, a VA AO awarded is all but guaranteed just by applying. The requirements to prove your case have been greatly reduced. In most cases it's a matter of seeing where you were actually deployed and when. This data is then cross-referenced with dates and times of defoliant sprayings. If you were there, then - you get the award.
                That's good to know. When did that change? I remember hearing a talk show about how VN vets were denied care for AO exposure, and Iraq vets as well for other toxins. Maybe it was longer ago than I was thinking. It's possible my mind melded two separate issues too. After all, I am old enough to have earned the right to be forgetful.

                That doesn't really change the point I was trying to make though, I don't think, and that was that the VA problems go back farther than two administrations. The focus has come on the last two administrations because of all the Iraq/Afghan vets entering the system.
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                • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
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                  Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                  That's good to know. When did that change?
                  Within the past year. It's not the kind of thing they advertise and it's another example of why every veteran should be a member of a veterans service organization like the DAV, AMVETS, VFW, etc. They are great at getting the info out.
                  The downside is this is one more reason why wait times have increased. Those that have gotten the word are now getting back into the system.
                  I remember hearing a talk show about how VN vets were denied care for AO exposure, and Iraq vets as well for other toxins.
                  AO has gotten easier, but I/A vets are still facing an uphill battle. They haven't had the benefit of having as many die already like the Vietnam vets. They'll get theirs - in 40 or 50 years.
                  Maybe it was longer ago than I was thinking. It's possible my mind melded two separate issues too. After all, I am old enough to have earned the right to be forgetful.
                  That's both a right and a privilege.
                  That doesn't really change the point I was trying to make though, I don't think, and that was that the VA problems go back farther than two administrations. The focus has come on the last two administrations because of all the Iraq/Afghan vets entering the system.
                  The VA's problems are as old as the VA, itself. It's a bipartisan problem that in a word all vets know is totally FUBAR!!!

                  Cheers. - Frank
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                  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                    Within the past year.
                    The radio program I was recalling was probably about 2 years ago, so my mind must have been working reasonably well then. I may have to put my coffee away and drink a beer.

                    The downside is this is one more reason why wait times have increased. Those that have gotten the word are now getting back into the system.
                    I don't mind waiting for them. I've given up appointments to those in more need before, so this is good news to me.
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                    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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                    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                      The radio program I was recalling was probably about 2 years ago, so my mind must have been working reasonably well then. I may have to put my coffee away and drink a beer.
                      Dennis, do you have a either a VSO or A VA Vet Rep? You MUST do this. It's hard to go it alone.
                      I don't mind waiting for them. I've given up appointments to those in more need before, so this is good news to me.
                      I do that too, but you can be nice at your own peril. I keep asking my PTSD therapist if I should stop coming so others worse off than myself can get the slot. I've never had a shrink laugh so hard, right in front of me. lol

                      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

    Guess which 3 losers voted no. Unbelievable. Worthless and despicable.
    Two of those guys were Senators when the Iraq war started and were big supporters. So, they are OK to send the troops out into harms way, but don't want to spend money on them when they come back?

    By the way, Iraq is now in jeopardy of falling back into civil war with a group more radical than Al Qaeda taking over cities and heading towards Baghdad.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

      Two of those guys were Senators when the Iraq war started and were big supporters. So, they are OK to send the troops out into harms way, but don't want to spend money on them when they come back?
      Shameful, but a commonplace attitude.

      By the way, Iraq is now in jeopardy of falling back into civil war with a group more radical than Al Qaeda taking over cities and heading towards Baghdad.
      Predictable and inevitable. Anyone who believes that leaving a 'residual' force behind would have changed things is delusional.

      Iraq is a third-world, toilet nation who's police and military, which we spent $25B to train and equip, toss their uniforms into the street and run for the (hills), at the first glimpse of a rag-tag invasion force in Toyota pick-up trucks.

      No American service person should be put in harms way to defend the Iraqi people, a corrupt government and a mission doomed to failure since its inception.

      Let the Iranians send their sons to be slaughtered. I think we have sacrificed enough blood and treasure with absolutely nothing to show for it except a $2T invoice which is due and payable.

      Enough is enough.

      Cheers, - Frank
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