Modern Composers As Good As Beethoven or Mozart?

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I found an interesting discussion on this question:
https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/questio...3203625AAjeyG9

I personally suspect that if Beethoven or Mozart were alive today, they'd probably using synthesizers and an array of special FX. Their attire and fan-base would probably differ radically from that of classical music today. l say this because in their times they were modern, innovative, and groundbreaking. In all likelihood that is how they would be in contemporary times as well because that is the kind of dudes they were.
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

    I found an interesting discussion on this question:
    https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/questio...3203625AAjeyG9

    I personally suspect that if Beethoven or Mozart were alive today, they'd probably using synthesizers and an array of special FX. Their attire and fan-base would probably differ radically from that of classical music today. l I say this because in their times they were modern, innovative, and groundbreaking. In all likelihood that is how they would be in contemporary times as well because that is the kind of dudes they were.
    This is a hard question to answer. It's kind of like asking "Are some baseball players today better than the greats of, say the 1920s like Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig?" There is no way to really answer that because we have no way of directly comparing their skills against each other. How would Ruth do today against pitchers who throw harder and have more pitches than they did back in the day? Plus, today there is more emphasis on working out.

    I actually suspect that most ball players today would probably excel over the ones of yesteryear but there is no way to prove or disprove that.

    Now music is a little different because you're not really competing against another person with the other person trying to keep you from doing what you're doing. But music is also very subjective. If you want to classify "great" as innovative, how much innovative music is "good?" And what is "good" music? Do I like music today better than music of the 1800s? Forget rock and pop. Let's take classical "like" scores such as the ones John Williams wrote for so many TV shows and movies. Is he as good as Mozart and Beethoven? Well, in all honesty, Williams really didn't write anything "innovative." If you put his stuff up against the classics, it's relatively the same stuff. If you pull apart the form of his compositions, it's pretty much what the greats were doing back in the day. So does that make Williams just a hack? I don't know. I like his stuff a lot more than some of Beethoven's. In fact, a lot of Beethoven's music was very heavy, moody and dark. I preferred Mozart's lighter and cheerier works.

    And as far as old composers go, Schubert is probably my favorite of all of them.

    If you want to hear innovative, listen to Stravinsky's "Rite Of Spring." Now that stuff was way ahead of its time. In fact, the reception it got was quite mixed. Personally, it's not my favorite piece in the whole world, but it is interesting to listen to once in a while. But I wouldn't want a steady diet of it and I wouldn't want all music to sound like it.

    I have no doubt that somebody who was an "expert" on musical composition as far as the "rules" go, could analyze the works of each composer and come up with a "score" for each one based on their "skills" but that's not how people enjoy music. I don't care if technically you construct your scores with perfection (no parallel 5ths, etc.) if I listen to your stuff and it bores me to tears.

    Unfortunately, comparisons are very difficult to make when you're talking about different eras. This will apply to acting, sports, music, painting, anything. Heck, even comparing one actor of today to another actor of today. Who is to say which one is the "better" actor? Maybe one guy is only good doing certain kinds of movies but he's amazing in them and another guy can do just about anything but is only "good" in all of them. Who is the better actor? We could debate that one question alone until our sun goes nova.

    Take a listen to this theme from the TV show "Crazy Like A Fox." which is written in a pop structure but orchestrated and IMO one of the catchiest TV themes ever written.


    And this theme from "As The World Turns", IMO one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written.


    I could keep going, and all music from the "modern" era but I think you get the point. And mind you, all of this is subjective. You get 10 people in a room and I seriously doubt that more than maybe 1 or 2 would agree with my comments above.

    But if you're going strictly by innovation (and what IS innovation) then we first have to define just what that is. Because we haven't had true innovation in classical music in a very long time. Now, we've had innovation in other areas such as rock, pop, electronic and so on. But how good is some of this stuff? Again, highly subjective.

    IOW, it's going to take someone a lot smarter than me to answer your question.
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    lennon and mccartney have been compared to same by respected composers and musicians

    regrettably i dont know enough about beethoven or mozart to comment
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      Originally Posted by hardraysnight View Post

      lennon and mccartney have been compared to same by respected composers and musicians
      They surely wished.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

        They surely wished.
        I don't think Lennon and McCartney ever asked or expected to be compared to Mozart and Beethoven.

        Aside from that, any comparisons are pointless. They don't even compose the same kind of music. They are worlds apart in that respect. It would be like comparing The Carpenters to Black Sabbath. What's the point?

        But again, and this goes back to the whole elitism thing, each group of groupies wants to think that "their" band is better than "your" band to, in some way, justify their love for one and their dislike of the other.

        Just because I happen to like The Beatles more than I like Stravinsky doesn't mean I'm going to put the latter down as being inferior. On the contrary, there is a complexity and uniqueness to Stravinsky that you don't find in a lot of music. He's just not at the top of the food chain for me, though I do enjoy and listen to him.

        And my own opinions about The Beatles are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what I think of them, their music, their legacy or anything else. The only thing that matters is how I feel when I hear their music. And let me tell you, some of it makes me feel like smiling (Penny Lane, Rocky Raccoon) while some of it makes me want to turn off the radio. (Why Don't We Do It In The Road, Revolution 9)

        Do I think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread? No. Are they? Don't know, don't care. There's a lot of stuff in this world that's supposed to be "great" that I don't even give the time of day to. Doesn't mean I don't think it's great. Just means I don't care.

        Maybe if more people would just spend their time listening to the music they enjoy and supporting those artists and less time taking pot shots at artists they don't like or understand we wouldn't have some of the stupid arguments that we have over music.
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          I don't think Lennon and McCartney ever asked or expected to be compared to Mozart and Beethoven.

          Aside from that, any comparisons are pointless. They don't even compose the same kind of music. They are worlds apart in that respect. It would be like comparing The Carpenters to Black Sabbath. What's the point?

          But again, and this goes back to the whole elitism thing, each group of groupies wants to think that "their" band is better than "your" band to, in some way, justify their love for one and their dislike of the other.

          Just because I happen to like The Beatles more than I like Stravinsky doesn't mean I'm going to put the latter down as being inferior. On the contrary, there is a complexity and uniqueness to Stravinsky that you don't find in a lot of music. He's just not at the top of the food chain for me, though I do enjoy and listen to him.

          And my own opinions about The Beatles are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what I think of them, their music, their legacy or anything else. The only thing that matters is how I feel when I hear their music. And let me tell you, some of it makes me feel like smiling (Penny Lane, Rocky Raccoon) while some of it makes me want to turn off the radio. (Why Don't We Do It In The Road, Revolution 9)

          Do I think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread? No. Are they? Don't know, don't care. There's a lot of stuff in this world that's supposed to be "great" that I don't even give the time of day to. Doesn't mean I don't think it's great. Just means I don't care.

          Maybe if more people would just spend their time listening to the music they enjoy and supporting those artists and less time taking pot shots at artists they don't like or understand we wouldn't have some of the stupid arguments that we have over music.

          Steven, perhaps more elaboration than necessary.

          Beethoven and Mozart have literally epitomized, embodied and defined what music actually is, revolutionizing the era in sound and paving the way then on. There is no comparison to be had. The Beatles are mere successors and beneficiaries to their works as many musicians are.

          We don't compare anything. They are keynote inventors of arranged sound.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

            Steven, perhaps more elaboration than necessary.

            Beethoven and Mozart have literally epitomized, embodied and defined what music actually is, revolutionizing the era in sound and paving the way then on. There is no comparison to be had. The Beatles are mere successors and beneficiaries to their works as many musicians are.

            We don't compare anything. They are keynote inventors of arranged sound.
            I hate to burst your bubble but Mozart was, first of all, taught by his father and heavily influenced by Bach.

            He did NOT compose his music in a vacuum. He did NOT invent music.

            Here is just a short list of what are considered great composers who came before Mozart.

            Monteverdi
            Purcell
            Scarlatti
            Three, count 'em, THREE Bachs.
            Gluck
            Haydn

            Mozart was essentially composing the music of the times. Was he great at it? Hell yeah. But he wasn't God.

            And as far as defining everything to come after it, really? I could play you over 1,000 different pieces that sound nothing like music from the 18th and 19th centuries.

            In fact, as far as stretching the boundaries of where music can go, we have stretched them so far I wonder what's even left to do.

            When Stravinsky wrote Rite Of Spring in 1913 you can't possibly believe that he was influenced by Mozart when he wrote that piece.

            So can we please get off our elitist high horse and recognize that there is no such thing as a greater music or greater composer and that all music has equal value and merit and that everything said about any music regardless of what kind of music it is is just opinion and not fact written in stone.

            Here's a piece written by Cavalli in the mid 1600s.

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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              This should put an end to this ridiculous argument.

              This is Hydn's first symphony written when Mozart was 3 years old.

              Most people, who aren't classical music buffs, if you asked them who composed this Haydn or Mozart, would probably guess at a 50 percent rate of success simply because they guessed.

              So please, enough of this nonsense. Mozart was not the inventor of music as we know it today.
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              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                Thanks for the elaboration again, but I'm most aware.

                Beethoven and Mozart are two of a collective who played huge roles in inventing their own styles of arranged sound - not "music", which was not something I stated.

                If you want to continue getting carried away, passionately dancing with a straw man, I'll even turn the music up for you, but I'll be out of the room soon after.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                  Thanks for the elaboration again, but I'm most aware.

                  Beethoven and Mozart are two of a collective who played huge roles in inventing their own styles of arranged sound - not "music", which was not something I stated.
                  And what exactly does that have to do with what has come after it?

                  I mean if you want to say that contemporary classical music, especially the stuff you hear out of John Williams and others for film scores is a derivative of earlier classical music, well, of course it is. It's the same style more or less.

                  But by saying that Lennon and McCartney wishes they were Mozart, you are inferring that what they have done and what others have done since, much of it having almost no resemblance to early classical music, is of lesser value because it didn't "define" anything is nonsense.

                  For one thing, we have gotten many different styles of music since classical using instruments that were never used before in ways that may have never even been intended to be used.

                  To say there has been absolutely no musical innovation since the classics is beyond elitist. It's just plain incorrect.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                    Steven, every piece of music in existence spawns from classical music for the fact that it came before and was done before.

                    Yes, everything.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                      Steven, every piece of music in existence spawns from classical music for the fact that it came before and was done before.

                      Yes, everything.
                      Then every piece of classical music came from Baroque music, which came from Renaissance music, which came from Medieval music. I won't even get into the other forms of music from ancient civilizations that came hundreds or years before the above.

                      So the whole conversation is pointless which makes your comment about the Beatles wishing they were Mozart pointless as I can easily say Mozart wishes he was Cordier from Medieval times because HE came first.

                      So the comment was nothing more than a dig at Lennon and McCartney and more evidence of the elitism I'm talking about.

                      And the part I hate the most about this elitism is that it mostly comes from the "defenders" of classical music as the measuring stick for all greatness.

                      Like I said, elitism will be alive and well long after I'm gone.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                        Then every piece of classical music came from Baroque music, which came from Renaissance music, which came from Medieval music. I won't even get into the other forms of music from ancient civilizations that came hundreds or years before the above.
                        Progress.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                          Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                          Progress.
                          I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. All I know is you've failed to address my question about what you meant by your obvious dig at Lennon and McCartney and I'm sure every artist that has ever come after 1800.

                          A clarification would be nice.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                            obvious dig at Lennon and McCartney.
                            Obviousness needs no clarification.

                            ...unless of course, it's not obvious being based purely upon assumption.

                            By "Progress" I meant that you understand.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                              Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                              Obviousness needs no clarification.

                              ...unless of course, it's not obvious being based purely upon assumption.
                              Then if I'm assuming, please clarify so that I can no longer assume or are you just refusing to answer my question?
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                              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                Then if I'm assuming, please clarify so that I can no longer assume or are you just refusing to answer my question?
                                You weren't graced with a reply for the sole fact that your attitude leaves much to be desired and your argument was initially based upon points you simply assumed.

                                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                I've probably forgotten more classical music in my lifetime than you've heard in total
                                Referencing the above (which also contains assumption); as a person who has persistantly referenced "elitism" you've made a mighty fine job as establishing yourself as a hypocrite.

                                Sorry, I guess I too call a spade, a spade.
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                                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                  Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                                  You weren't graced with a reply for the sole fact that your attitude leaves much to be desired and your argument was initially based upon points you simply assumed.



                                  Referencing the above (which also contains assumption); as a person who has persistantly referenced "elitism" you've made a mighty fine job as establishing yourself as a hypocrite.

                                  Sorry, I guess I too call a spade, a spade.
                                  Yep, when people put one form of music above another, my attitude stinks because I hate when people do that. It makes me sick.

                                  Your comment "They only wish" can only be taken one way as far as I can see. If I am wrong, then correct me and explain what you meant. If you feel I don't deserve an explanation then just say so and I'll end this. Otherwise I would appreciate you explaining what you meant by that remark.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
                                    You don't deserve an explanation.

                                    If such things lead you to hate and sickness it's best you opt out.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                      Originally Posted by Daniel Evans View Post

                                      You don't deserve an explanation.

                                      If such things lead you to hate and sickness it's best you opt out.
                                      Fine, then I am free to presume whatever I wish. Good day to you sir.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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    Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

    I personally suspect that if Beethoven or Mozart were alive today, they'd probably using synthesizers and an array of special FX.
    Mozart, possibly. Especially special FX: just right, for him.

    I can't somehow believe this of the supremely intellectual Beethoven. He might be a "modern hyperminimalist", I suspect. He was going off the rails, arguably, by the time of the "late quartets", anyway.

    Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

    in their times they were modern, innovative, and groundbreaking.
    Beethoven, certainly. (Not quite so sure about Mozart, in the context of "groundbreaking"?).
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      Mozart, possibly. Especially special FX: just right, for him.

      I can't somehow believe this of the supremely intellectual Beethoven. He might be a "modern hyperminimalist", I suspect. He was going off the rails, arguably, by the time of the "late quartets", anyway.

      Beethoven, certainly. (Not quite so sure about Mozart, in the context of "groundbreaking"?).
      Funny, I was thinking similar thoughts about them, right down to Mozart having a taste for special FX, but Beethoven probably being more serious and down-to-earth whatever genre of music he would have taken to were he living in modern times.

      My son, 4, is into Beethoven, especially Beethoven's 9th. He just discovered it somewhere and latched onto it. He kind of pushed it on his parents. He'll listen to over and over again all day if we don't put an end to it. I've tried to introduce him to Deep Purple but no go.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        My son, 4, is into Beethoven, especially Beethoven's 9th. He just discovered it somewhere and latched onto it. He kind of pushed it on his parents. He'll listen to over and over again all day if we don't put an end to it. I've tried to introduce him to Deep Purple but no go.
        He'll perhaps like some Stravinsky (The Rite of Spring? Especially the rhythmic sections? ) and some later-than-Beethoven, big, classical symphonies (Bruckner? ), and really everyone says that for young children Tchaikovsky symphonies are ideal (though I feel guilty mentioning it, because I wouldn't wish them on you! )
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        • Profile picture of the author waterotter
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Yanni was my first exposure to meditative and atmospheric music. I should really listen to more of him to give me some fresh ideas for my own stuff in that genre.
          Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

          The performance by Yanni and his orchestra in the Forbidden City in Beijing, China was spectacular, so good they probably improved China/West relations with it.
          IMO, Yanni is a brilliant composer. Everything he produces quite frankly, speaks to me.
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          He'll perhaps like some Stravinsky (The Rite of Spring? Especially the rhythmic sections? ) and some later-than-Beethoven, big, classical symphonies (Bruckner? ), and really everyone says that for young children Tchaikovsky symphonies are ideal (though I feel guilty mentioning it, because I wouldn't wish them on you! )
          He takes piano and singing lessons and loves it. It's hard to say what direction he's going with it. He's definitely got way more musical talent than me. The truth is movies and a silly cartoon called "Little Einsteins" have played a big role in his musical tastes, more than my attempts to introduce him to heavy metal. His favorite songs right now are:

          Little Einstens theme song.
          Everything Is Awesome (from The Lego Movie)
          Beethoven's 9th Symphony
          Let It Go (from the movie Frozen)
          Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star.
          "Les Toreadors" by Georges Bizet
          "Moonlight Sonta" by Beethoven
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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            Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

            His favorite songs right now are: ...
            Sounds a fairly healthy mixture, to me (the ones I know, anyway).

            Beethoven's Choral Symphony is pretty "stirring stuff". I would try him with some Tchaikovsky symphonies (for the "heavier side") and all the Prokofiev ballet music (hugely popular with young children, in Europe) for something lighter.
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
    Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

    I found an interesting discussion on this question:
    https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/questio...3203625AAjeyG9

    I personally suspect that if Beethoven or Mozart were alive today, they'd probably using synthesizers and an array of special FX. Their attire and fan-base would probably differ radically from that of classical music today. l I say this because in their times they were modern, innovative, and groundbreaking. In all likelihood that is how they would be in contemporary times as well because that is the kind of dudes they were.
    That right there. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they where into rock and roll also.
    I think (depending on your definition of composer) that we have had comparable composers in our time. Buddy Holley, John Lennon, Paul McCarthy, Dillon, Frank Zappa, and Lowell George (who passed away 35 years ago today), just to name the ones off the top of my head.
    Heck add Les Claypool to the list also.
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

      That right there. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they where into rock and roll also.
      I think (depending on your definition of composer) that we have had comparable composers in our time. Buddy Holley, John Lennon, Paul McCarthy, Dillon, Frank Zappa, and Lowell George (who passed away 35 years ago today), just to name the ones off the top of my head.
      Heck add Les Claypool to the list also.
      Beethoven and Mozart (their are others) do intricate multi-instrument compositions (played by skilled humans using fingers and breath) Orchestral pieces. This represents the finest, expressive, most complex, difficult, tuneful, melodic music that mankind has ever produced bar none. Trying to compare them to little 4 piece bands with verse, chorus melodys is laughable.

      Not in the same universe.

      Not everyone of course listens to it all the time but if you really take the time to discover it, learn about it and appreciate what it really is you would just go Wow!

      Probably the last composer to do anything comparable was probably Holst with the Planets. Since then, not much.

      I will add in Igor Stravinski who was also 20th century
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        Beethoven and Mozart (their are others) do intricate multi-instrument compositions (played by skilled humans using fingers and breath) Orchestral pieces. This represents the finest, expressive, most complex, difficult, tuneful, melodic music that mankind has ever produced bar none. Trying to compare them to little 4 piece bands with verse, chorus melodys is laughable.

        Not in the same universe.

        Not everyone of course listens to it all the time but if you really take the time to discover it, learn about it and appreciate what it really is you would just go Wow!

        Probably the last composer to do anything comparable was probably Holst with the Planets. Since then, not much.
        Saying that the ones I mentioned only worked with tiny 4 piece bands is more laughable and shows you don't know much about any of them.
        Here's Zappa with a tiny 4 piece band
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        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Saying that the ones I mentioned only worked with tiny 4 piece bands is more laughable and shows you don't know much about any of them.
          Here's Zappa with a tiny 4 piece band
          Frank Zappa - Peaches en Regalia (Orchestral performance) - YouTube
          Well, I listened to it, small orchestra with a contemporary rock piece transcribed for them. Would it stand up to the likes of Mozart or Beethoven as a memorable classic piece? I would say it was just on par with a good musical score for a film.
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

    Beethoven and Mozart (their are others) do intricate multi-instrument compositions (played by skilled humans using fingers and breath) Orchestral pieces. This represents the finest, expressive, most complex, difficult, tuneful, melodic music that mankind has ever produced bar none. Trying to compare them to little 4 piece bands with verse, chorus melodys is laughable.

    Not in the same universe.

    Not everyone of course listens to it all the time but if you really take the time to discover it, learn about it and appreciate what it really is you would just go Wow!

    Probably the last composer to do anything comparable was probably Holst with the Planets. Since then, not much.
    I find it hard to buy with Lennon & McCartney (much as I like their music), but it is easy to see with Frank Zappa who was a brilliant composer and instrumentalist. I guess the shock aspects of his work might obfuscate it. Canada's CBC Radio had a series on his works positively critiqued by experts in musical theory. I picked up that Zappa pushed the boundaries of music and even did things that heretofore might not have even been considered possible in musical composition (elaborate math).
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    • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      I find it hard to buy with Lennon & McCartney (much as I like their music), but it is easy to see with Frank Zappa who was a brilliant as a composer and instrumentalist. I guess the shock aspects of his work might obfuscate it. Canada's CBC Radio had a series on his works positively critiqued by experts in musical theory. I picked up that Zappa pushed the boundaries of music and even did things that heretofore might not have even been considered possible in musical composition (elaborate math).

      It's a whole different ball game than doing intricate orchestral music! I wonder how Zappa would have done if he was a classical composer? I will have to give Zappa a listen though having not really been exposed to much of his work!

      I said to my friends a long time ago, much as I like and still do listen to popular music and progressive rock and electronic instrumental most of the time, I do this with the full knowledge and appreciation that the likes of Beethoven and Mozart made the finest music mankind has ever produced.

      Many arguments came about because of this. :-)

      What I would like to see in the present day is some quality musical composition using the incredible array of new sounds that can be achieved with the synthesizer.

      This will never be as much an achievement as using skilled humans playing however but the textures, sounds and musical landscapes it could evoke is mind boggling.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        It's a whole different ball game than doing intricate orchestral music! I wonder how Zappa would have done if he was a classical composer? I will have to give Zappa a listen though having not really been exposed to much of his work!

        I said to my friends a long time ago, much as I like and still do listen to popular music and progressive rock and electronic instrumental most of the time, I do this with the full knowledge and appreciation that the likes of Beethoven and Mozart produced the finest music mankind has ever produced.

        Many arguments came about because of this. :-)

        What I would like to see in the present day is some quality musical composition using the incredible array of new sounds that can be achieved with the synthesizer.

        This will never be as much an achievement as using skilled humans playing however but the textures, sounds and musical landscapes it could evoke is mind boggling.
        Zappa started out as a classical music composer. Honestly out of all those names I listed Zappa is probably the only one who could stand head and shoulders with Mozart and Beethoven.
        The point I was trying to make in my original post was it's hard to compare the composers of today with those in the past because the music is so different.
        If those I mentioned lived at the same time as Mozart, I doubt they would be writing rock and roll songs and there's a good chance if Mozart and the others where alive today they would be writing rock and roll songs. Many rock musicians have their roots in classical music. Jack Bruce from Cream is an accomplished concert Cellist and studied at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama.
        Yes Mozart and Beethoven where brilliant composers, there's no deigning that. But we also have brilliant composers today, just in different genres of music.
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        • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
          Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

          Zappa started out as a classical music composer. Honestly out of all those names I listed Zappa is probably the only one who could stand head and shoulders with Mozart and Beethoven.
          The point I was trying to make in my original post was it's hard to compare the composers of today with those in the past because the music is so different.
          If those I mentioned lived at the same time as Mozart, I doubt they would be writing rock and roll songs and there's a good chance if Mozart and the others where alive today they would be writing rock and roll songs. Many rock musicians have their roots in classical music. Jack Bruce from Cream is an accomplished concert Cellist and studied at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama.
          Yes Mozart and Beethoven where brilliant composers, there's no deigning that. But we also have brilliant composers today, just in different genres of music.
          I don't disagree with what you are saying, the instruments we have at our disposal and the way we are expressing ourselves musically is changing and what we like to hear is changing

          I will cite however that the Beethoven, Mozart era was totally dependent on the dexterity and skills of the composers and performers, just them, their fingers or breath, no amplification or FX. So to write multipule parts for them and produce such amazing intricate melodies, inflections, passages was remarkable and the most purest way we ever expressed ourselves musically. But, true to say, those days are probably gone.

          Having said that, here is my most loved contemporary modern musical piece. The first side of Camels instrumental, the Snow Goose. I'm taking this to the afterlife with me. Hope you enjoy! (Could not find the first side on its own but that's the best bit!)

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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

            I don't disagree with what you are saying, the instruments we have at our disposal and the way we are expressing ourselves musically is changing and what we like to hear is changing

            I will cite however that the Beethoven, Mozart era was totally dependent on the dexterity and skills of the composers and performers, just them, their fingers or breath, no amplification or FX. So to write multipule parts for them and produce such amazing intricate melodies, inflections, passages was remarkable and the most purest way we ever expressed ourselves musically. But, true to say, those days are probably gone.

            Having said that, here is my most loved contemporary modern musical piece. The first side of Camels instrumental, the Snow Goose. I'm taking this to the afterlife with me. Hope you enjoy! (Could not find the first side on its own but that's the best bit!)

            Camel - The Snow Goose - 1975- Full Album - YouTube
            Funny thing is in a couple hundred years people will be talking about people like Zappa and many other like we talk about Mozart
            I didn't have time to listen to all of it, but I liked what I heard.
            Reminded me of this guy, another one of my favorites
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            • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              Funny thing is in a couple hundred years people will be talking about people like Zappa and many other like we talk about Mozart
              I didn't have time to listen to all of it, but I liked what I heard.
              Reminded me of this guy, another one of my favorites
              Jean Luc Ponty Enigmatic Ocean Full Album - YouTube
              Sounds like Colosseum 2. AKA Gary Moore and co,

              You will adore this! You may have to go to you-tube for the full album

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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Had to add this one in by them too. Ultimately manical. :-)

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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Interesting discussion going on here. As somebody who grew up with classical music and eventually went on to love most genres of music, I find it amusing the elitism on both ends of the spectrum.

                  You want to talk about dexterity and skill.

                  Have you ever seen these guys wale on a lead guitar?


                  Or seen these guys in concert?


                  Keith Emerson has a doctorate in music and Carl Palmer can play so fast he can grab a new stick after tossing one without missing a beat.

                  The elitism will go on, but there is great music, great composers and great performers in all genres.
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                  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    Interesting discussion going on here. As somebody who grew up with classical music and eventually went on to love most genres of music, I find it amusing the elitism on both ends of the spectrum.

                    You want to talk about dexterity and skill.

                    Have you ever seen these guys wale on a lead guitar?

                    Dragonforce - Heroes Of Our Time [Long Version] (Sub Español & Lyrics) - YouTube

                    Or seen these guys in concert?

                    Emerson, Lake & Palmer - Karn Evil 9 - YouTube

                    Keith Emerson has a doctorate in music and Carl Palmer can play so fast he can grab a new stick after tossing one without missing a beat.

                    The elitism will go on, but there is great music, great composers and great performers in all genres.
                    I was their number one fan back in the seventies (ELP). Amazing Trio

                    And then came Love Beach
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                      I was their number one fan back in the seventies (ELP). Amazing Trio

                      And then came Love Beach
                      And your point is? So everything Mozart wrote was amazing? Did you listen to some of his early symphonies? Granted, he was a kid, but they were extremely simplistic. John Williams music blows early Mozart away.

                      And as for the comment about 4 piece bands, lots of classical music was written for solo instruments. Chopin's Revolutionary Etude is probably one of the most difficult pieces to play for left hand. My poor mother, who was a concert pianist, was in pain after playing that monster.

                      I've probably forgotten more classical music in my lifetime than you've heard in total and I don't go around pounding the high brow musical chest. My own mother learned that late in life when she discovered the music of Kansas, Elton John and ELO just to name a few.

                      Yeah, the elitism will go on long after I'm dead.

                      I'm just glad I want no part of it.
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                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                        And your point is? So everything Mozart wrote was amazing? Did you listen to some of his early symphonies? Granted, he was a kid, but they were extremely simplistic. John Williams music blows early Mozart away.

                        And as for the comment about 4 piece bands, lots of classical music was written for solo instruments. Chopin's Revolutionary Etude is probably one of the most difficult pieces to play for left hand. My poor mother, who was a concert pianist, was in pain after playing that monster.

                        I've probably forgotten more classical music in my lifetime than you've heard in total and I don't go around pounding the high brow musical chest. My own mother learned that late in life when she discovered the music of Kansas, Elton John and ELO just to name a few.

                        Yeah, the elitism will go on long after I'm dead.

                        I'm just glad I want no part of it.
                        At what point in any of my posts did you get the idea that I was an Elite musical snob or something. Merely stating that I acknowledge and totally accept these composers at the height of there Creativity put out genius, amazing music that is yet to be surpassed and should not be thought of as thus.

                        Popular music has been around far longer than they have and always will be. Wether it be tribes banging sticks on drums and chanting or the Ramones bashing out there 4 chord epics, there is a place for it. People want something to dance too, sing along too, listen to clever lyrics, be reminded of times in their lives etc. Though my father, a classic and popular music buff introduced me to all the great composers and I listened to it and immediately recognized it for what it was. It does mean my cd collection is full of classical music. I like all kinds of stuff. I rarely listen to classical but I have done!

                        Popular music does not even aspire to being classical or the height of mans musical achievements, its not its purpose. It does not need to be. I merely suggest that you don't kid yourselves that it is, just enjoy it for what it is and leave it at that. I do!

                        The classics have survived for hundreds of years, they are still learned by musicans, played in concerts and appreciated by millions to this day. It is a testament to their quality and durability.

                        No one goes around singing popular songs from the 19th century. (perhaps with the exception of Gilbert and Sullivan) and I seriously doubt if anyone much will be whistling Lennon and Mcartney songs 100 years from now but I would place bets that I could still go to Mozart concert or buy recordings of his work!

                        PS. Love Beach by ELP has been acclaimed by many as one of the worst recordings ever made.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                          At what point in any of my posts did you get the idea that I was an Elite musical snob or something. Merely stating that I acknowledge and totally accept these composers at the height of there Creativity put out genius, amazing music that is yet to be surpassed and should not be thought of as thus.

                          Popular music has been around far longer than they have and always will be. Wether it be tribes banging sticks on drums and chanting or the Ramones bashing out there 4 chord epics, there is a place for it. People want something to dance too, sing along too, listen to clever lyrics, be reminded of times in their lives etc. Though my father, a classic and popular music buff introduced me to all the great composers and I listened to it and immediately recognized it for what it was. It does mean my cd collection is full of classical music. I like all kinds of stuff. I rarely listen to classical but I have done!

                          Popular music does not even aspire to being classical or the height of mans musical achievements, its not its purpose. It does not need to be. I merely suggest that you don't kid yourselves that it is, just enjoy it for what it is and leave it at that. I do!

                          The classics have survived for hundreds of years, they are still learned by musicans, played in concerts and appreciated by millions to this day. It is a testament to their quality and durability.

                          No one goes around singing popular songs from the 19th century. (perhaps with the exception of Gilbert and Sullivan) and I seriously doubt if anyone much will be whistling Lennon and Mcartney songs 100 years from now but I would place bets that I could still go to Mozart concert or buy recordings of his work!

                          PS. Love Beach by ELP has been acclaimed by many as one of the worst recordings ever made.
                          I get your point. All I'm saying is that not everything Mozart or any of the "giants" of classical music wrote was great. Some of it was pretty mediocre in comparison to their great works.

                          As for popular music not being classical music, no, it's not. That doesn't mean it's any less music.

                          Popular songs not being sung in 100 years? Maybe not. So what? Do you think every classical piece ever written is remembered today? In the grand scheme of things, given how much classical music has been written, very little of it is remembered.

                          Of Mozart's 52 symphonies, how many are still played today? A handful? How many does the average person recognize?

                          When people think of Beethoven, how many symphonies do they think of? How many other works do they think of?

                          Why do people insist on putting classical music on this pedestal like it was a gift from the gods? And no, I'm not a classical music hater. I grew up with it. My mother was a concert pianist and operatic vocalist. My father is a composer of classical music. I've written my own symphony and piano concerto. I love classical music.

                          It does NOT however walk on water. And I'm sick and tired of classical music lovers elevating it above everything else. And while you say you're not a snob, your very comment about how classical music will be remembered 100 years from now but pop music won't proves you're a snob. A subtle one, but a snob none the less.

                          And whether or not a piece of music or composer is remembered is not a measure of greatness. It is a measure of popularity.

                          They are NOT the same thing.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                            And I'm sick and tired of classical music lovers elevating it above everything else. And while you say you're not a snob, your very comment about how classical music will be remembered 100 years from now but pop music won't proves you're a snob.
                            Do you have any clue how pretentious that sounds?

                            Most people who love to listen to music aren't out to impress others with their knowledge of how many symphonies Mozart or Beethoven wrote. They just know the ones they enjoy listening to.

                            Don't know what Beethoven would think - but I really enjoy this one at about .33 ....

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                            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                              One of my wife's favorite bands. My nephew is friends with one of the violinists. Did you know there are two TSO's bands, or "touring groups" as they call them?
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                              • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                One of my wife's favorite bands. My nephew is friends with one of the violinists. Did you know there are two TSO's bands, or "touring groups" as they call them?
                                For reals? Or are you just saying that because you never see them at the same public place at the same time?



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                                • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                                  Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

                                  For reals? Or are you just saying that because you never see them at the same public place at the same time?
                                  Ha! It's for real, Dan, mostly.

                                  They have two bands touring at the same time during the holidays (November and December), but one band the rest of the year.

                                  Trans-Siberian Orchestra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                                  I thought they had two bands performing year round until you asked me, but according to Wikipedia it's limited. My nephew is who told me they had two touring bands. I don't know if told me the dual bands was limited to the holidays and I forgot, or if he just didn't mention that part to me. It's an interesting factoid about them, anyway.

                                  It makes me wonder if there were/are any other bands with more than one performing group under the same name like that.
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                              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                One of my wife's favorite bands. My nephew is friends with one of the violinists. Did you know there are two TSO's bands, or "touring groups" as they call them?
                                Yep I did.
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                                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                  Just for the hell of it.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                              Do you have any clue how pretentious that sounds?

                              Most people who love to listen to music aren't out to impress others with their knowledge of how many symphonies Mozart or Beethoven wrote. They just know the ones they enjoy listening to.

                              Don't know what Beethoven would think - but I really enjoy this one at about .33 ....

                              Trans-Siberian Orchestra - Beethoven's Last Night (Full Album) - YouTube
                              I don't give a damn what it sounds like. I'm sick and tired of all the musical elitists in this world.

                              And this isn't about people trying to impress others with how many symphonies Mozart wrote. This is about people claiming that classical music is above everything else either because it came first or because hundred's of years later it's still being played. None of that means crap. Nobody knows what's going to be played hundreds of years from now. It's all speculation. But to put down popular music and everything else that isn't classical or came after 1900 is elitist and snobbery, plain and simple.

                              I call a spade a spade. And if people don't like it, too bad.
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                              • Profile picture of the author HN
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                                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                Nobody knows what's going to be played hundreds of years from now. It's all speculation.
                                I know. Well, I don't know what's going to be played, but I know what musical instruments will be used. The next war will be fought with sticks and stones so it's logical to assume how the music will be performed in the not-so-distant future.

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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Bach would probably be in a German metal band...But I'm not so sure that all the others would be "rock" musicians. I'd guess that those with improve talent that discovered syncopation may find their way into jazz and big band, maybe even Mancini-ish stuff.

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    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      But I'm not so sure that all the others would be "rock" musicians. I'd guess that those with improve talent that discovered syncopation may find their way into jazz and big band, maybe even Mancini-ish stuff.

      [/url]
      I think some of those classical guys would get into jazz also. I bet Mozart would have loved to have jambed with Coltrane, Miles, Munk, Mingus and Bird.

      When Duke Ellington toured in Europre for the first time in 1933 British composer, conductor and music critic Constant Lambert proclaimed that Ellington was "skillful as compared with other jazz composers," but that his music could stand alongside that of the European masters: "I know of nothing in Ravel so dexterous [...] nothing in Stravinsky more dynamic." Percy Grainger listed Duke among the three greatest composers in the history of music along with Bach and Delius.

      Personally I think Miles Davis's music, influence and legacy will last for centuries.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
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    • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
      maybe this can please everrybody - but i doubt it very much

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      • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
        It's strange discussing music like it was some sort of competitive sport. As with other art forms, it's largely a subjective experience, but the pleasure derived from a piece of music isn't necessarily enhanced by the degree of difficulty required, or effort taken, to produce it. One can equally enjoy, say, The Ramones and Zappa without mentally ranking them in order of musical merit.

        Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

        I will cite however that the Beethoven, Mozart era was totally dependent on the dexterity and skills of the composers and performers, just them, their fingers or breath, no amplification or FX. So to write multipule parts for them and produce such amazing intricate melodies, inflections, passages was remarkable and the most purest way we ever expressed ourselves musically. But, true to say, those days are probably gone.
        A composer can only use the tools and methods available at the time. I suspect that most Classical composers would be making full use of all today's technology were they born in this era.

        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        Funny thing is in a couple hundred years people will be talking about people like Zappa and many other like we talk about Mozart
        If one measure of a composer's worth is the longevity of his legacy, I'd bet there'd be a clutch of current artists still remembered in a couple of hundred years. Fast forward five hundred years and I'd say probably still Mozart and Beethoven. People like Lennon/McCartney and Dylan might keep their place in a social history setting.

        The only composer I'd be comfortable betting on staying with us for the length of our species is JS Bach. I believe there's a timeless quality to Bach's music that will always speak to the human soul.


        Frank
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Frank, it is a strange discussion. Sadly, it all comes down to a person wanting to make others think that they're taste in music is better than the other person's because in some perverse way, it makes them feel superior. Yes, I'm calling a spade a spade.

          And when I was younger, yeah, I fell into that trap. And boy, when rap music came out, did I ever criticize it and anybody who was brain dead enough to like it.

          Not anymore. I have come to realize that enjoyment in music is a completely subjective thing and there is no better or worse. There is just different. Sure, we can designate a "skill" score to playing or composing a piece of music, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the "skillful" music is going to be generally liked by the public.

          Prog rock died very quickly because, quite simply, people got sick of it. Many times it was referred to as "musical masturbation" and I can kind of see that view with the long winded solos and endless pieces. Supper's Ready by Genesis off the Foxtrot LP was like 22 minutes long and took up the whole second side. Autobahn by Kraftwerk, the same. One whole side.

          I enjoy all kinds of music. Last night I watched the movie version of Les Mis and cried buckets from the music alone. I think I went through half a box of tissues. I can then turn around and listen to Tangerine Dream without missing a beat.

          If you follow me on Facebook, you'll find that I've posted everything from Opera to Show Tunes. And I get into my moods too. Sometimes I'll do nothing but listen to 8 bit pop. One week I spent listening to every symphony by Mozart. And when I was done with him I moved on to another composer. I did this for a few composers before I got tired of doing it and then moved onto something else.

          My taste and appreciation for music is so wide and varied that I don't think the day will ever come when I just don't feel like listening to anything. Music is my life and I can't imagine a day without it.

          But I understand people and their prejudices and preferences and have come to accept them. I don't have to agree with them, but I respect their right to think that their music is the best thing going.

          I don't even knock rappers anymore.

          Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

          It's strange discussing music like it was some sort of competitive sport. As with other art forms, it's largely a subjective experience, but the pleasure derived from a piece of music isn't necessarily enhanced by the degree of difficulty taken to produce it. One can equally enjoy, say, The Ramones and Zappa without mentally ranking them in order of musical merit.



          A composer can only use the tools and methods available at the time. I suspect that most Classical composers would be making full use of all today's technology were they born in this era.



          If one measure of a composer's worth is the longevity of his legacy, I'd bet there'd be a clutch of current artists still remembered in a couple of hundred years. Fast forward five hundred years and I'd say probably still Mozart and Beethoven. People like Lennon/McCartney and Dylan might keep their place in a social history setting.

          The only composer I'd be comfortable betting on staying with us for the length of our species is JS Bach. I believe there's a timeless quality to Bach's music that will always speak to the human soul.


          Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
            I don't even knock rappers anymore.
            I never did myself. I have found songs in every genre that I like and songs I don't like. I can't stand musicals, but love Grease.
            One of my favorite songs (and one of the few that I listen to the lyrics) is this (I guess) rap tune. I can listen to this song all day.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

              I never did myself. I have found songs in every genre that I like and songs I don't like. I can't stand musicals, but love Grease.
              One of my favorite songs (and one of the few that I listen to the lyrics) is this (I guess) rap tune. I can listen to this song all day.
              Wyclef Jean;Canibus - Gone Till November - YouTube
              Wow! Just wow!

              After I listened to it, I said to myself, "Okay, how would I classify this?" Because this is a tough one. At first I thought hip hop because of the beat but then I thought R&B because of the string arrangement. Well, it's classified alternative hip hop, R&B.

              My education has not failed me. LOL

              Very unusual song. Loved it. And it's rare I love something the first time I hear it. Usually I need time to get used to a song. But this one caught me right away.

              Given that this was a pretty big hit in the UK I'm surprised I never heard of it, but I don't listen to a lot of hip hop/R&B stuff in my area because the stations (not the music) are really geared towards teens here and I just can't get into the whole "Hey man, check this out" scene. I'm too old for that stuff anymore. LOL.

              But thanks for the share because that was very, very, very good.
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Wow! Just wow!

                After I listened to it, I said to myself, "Okay, how would I classify this?" Because this is a tough one. At first I thought hip hop because of the beat but then I thought R&B because of the string arrangement. Well, it's classified alternative hip hop, R&B.

                My education has not failed me. LOL

                Very unusual song. Loved it. And it's rare I love something the first time I hear it. Usually I need time to get used to a song. But this one caught me right away.

                Given that this was a pretty big hit in the UK I'm surprised I never heard of it, but I don't listen to a lot of hip hop/R&B stuff in my area because the stations (not the music) are really geared towards teens here and I just can't get into the whole "Hey man, check this out" scene. I'm too old for that stuff anymore. LOL.

                But thanks for the share because that was very, very, very good.
                It is a beautiful song.
                I don't have any idea how I came about hearing it the first time. I haven't listened to the radio in years.
                I have the album that song is on (Carnival) and like pretty much everything on it.
                Listening to music is always an adventure for me.
                For example today I started with that song went to Joe Walsh then Spooky Tooth, Buddy Holley, Moon Taxi, Grace Potter and the Nocturnals, Hank III, which somehow got me thinking about Jimmy Buffet which naturally led to CSNY.
                Typing that got me thinking of this tune, lol.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                  It is a beautiful song.
                  I don't have any idea how I came about hearing it the first time. I haven't listened to the radio in years.
                  I have the album that song is on (Carnival) and like pretty much everything on it.
                  Listening to music is always an adventure for me.
                  For example today I started with that song went to Joe Walsh then Spooky Tooth, Buddy Holley, Moon Taxi, Grace Potter and the Nocturnals, Hank III, which somehow got me thinking about Jimmy Buffet which naturally led to CSNY.
                  Typing that got me thinking of this tune, lol.
                  Rascal Flatts - Life is a Highway - YouTube
                  Thom, I think you and I would really get along great together just hanging out in the garage listening to tunes LOL.

                  Hmmm...you and I.


                  and 40 years later

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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    My favorite modern day composer is Yanni - I have all of his music! He's also not too hard on the eyes.

    Fast forward to about 2:30

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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I think there is a commercial success factor that impacts/limits the modern composer more than
    the Bachs, Beethovens, and Mozarts?. The contract says you have to produce the albums we
    say you have to produce, and do tours.....Only so much time in a day.

    Maybe that will change because of the Internet.

    I would like to hear unreleased stuff from a lot of the modern composers who have been mentioned.
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  • Profile picture of the author derekwong28

    Leck mich im Arsch (literally "Lick me in the arse") is a canon in B-flat major composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, K. 231 (K. 382c), with lyrics in German. It was one of a set of at least six canons probably written in Vienna in 1782. Sung by six voices as a three-part round, it is thought to be a party piece for his friends. A literal translation of the song's title and lyrics into English would be "Lick me in the arse". A more idiomatic translation would be "Kiss my arse!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    I think Chuck Berry says it best:

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  • Profile picture of the author HN
    Banned
    2:57 It'z not Mozart. I 've got a lot of inspiration from this scene.

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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      That had me in fits of laughter.

      Brilliant!
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        One of my wife's favorite bands. My nephew is friends with one of the violinists. Did you know there are two TSO's bands, or "touring groups" as they call them?
        I did not know there were two TSO bands. I first heard TSO years ago when they played a concert at the Coliseum here.

        The leader/manager's wife is from Biloxi which is just across the Bay. At the beginning the manager announced they were glad to be back home with friends. The crowd was into it and they just kept playing after the planned sets were over.

        The lyrics to their songs are powerful, too.
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  • Profile picture of the author HN
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    Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

    I found an interesting discussion on this question:
    https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/questio...3203625AAjeyG9

    I personally suspect that if Beethoven or Mozart were alive today, they'd probably using synthesizers and an array of special FX. Their attire and fan-base would probably differ radically from that of classical music today. l say this because in their times they were modern, innovative, and groundbreaking. In all likelihood that is how they would be in contemporary times as well because that is the kind of dudes they were.
    That music is timeless. As for fan-base... well, don't like the classical music? Violins are boring? Here you go, have it performed by your favorite metal band and pretend it's some fancy brand new genre called "mathcore chiptune lowercase schranz crunkcore pagan metal."



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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I also believe good music is in the ear of the beholder.

    The best of classical music is fantastic.

    I have the top 50 classical music numbers in my I tunes collection as I have the tops songs from most of the major genres.

    But with most genres, all I want to listen to are the top songs of the genre and the serious fans of a particular genre can have the everyday stuff that only they really know about.

    I have over 1400 of my favorite songs in my Itunes/phone and over 157 different playlists with almost every genre covered.

    I love what these folks have done with Bach's minuet in G and I'm sure Bach would love it also.

    Here's Bach...



    And here are the Toys with A Lovers Concerto.


    I think I heard that Bach's minuet in G was only a finger exercise piece and was never realized as a full classical number with all the strings etc.

    I wonder what it would have sounded like.

    I'm not a musician but I'm sure there wouldn't be an highlighted accent throughout most of the song like in Lovers Concerto, and I have a feeling there wouldn't be that Motown beginning, but I don't know what else would have been different in Bach's version.

    I'm pretty sure Mr. Bach would have loved this version of his work.

    I'm not sure I have my music terminology straight.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post


      I think I heard that Bach's minuet in G was only a finger exercise piece and was never realized as a full classical number with all the strings etc.

      I wonder what it would have sounded like.

      I'm not a musician but I'm sure there wouldn't be an highlighted accent throughout most of the song like in Lovers Concerto, and I have a feeling there wouldn't be that Motown beginning, but I don't know what else would have been different in Bach's version.

      I'm pretty sure Mr. Bach would have loved this version of his work.

      I'm not sure I have my music terminology straight.
      Well, hate to shatter so many dreams with this post but Bach's Minuet In G was actually written by Christian Petzold. Long story short, Bach's wife had a book with a collection of pieces by other composers. Some were properly marked with the composer who owned the piece. Others were not. This particular piece, whether attributed or not, is now believed to be written by Petzoid. Whether or not this is 100% for certain is irrelevant to answering the question but should be pointed out. A lot of music from that era which was attributed to one composer actually turned out to be written by somebody else.

      A lot of music of the era was in fact written as exercises. Chopin's etudes (literally means exercise) were probably the most famous of them all. Whether or not Bach or Petzoid would have developed these further had they been around today is moot. Back then, you had pieces of all lengths and purposes, including those simply meant to be used as an exercise.

      It's kind of like asking, had Ford the knowledge that we have today, would they have made the Edsel in 1958? Moot point. They did and thank God it's over with. Not that there is anything wrong with piano exercises. Some are quite interesting to listen to, as is Petzoid's, Bach's, whoever.

      I guess we'll just never know what could have been.

      Imagine had Mozart lived past 35 years of age.
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      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Well, hate to shatter so many dreams with this post but Bach's Minuet In G was actually written by Christian Petzold. Long story short, Bach's wife had a book with a collection of pieces by other composers. Some were properly marked with the composer who owned the piece. Others were not. This particular piece, whether attributed or not, is now believed to be written by Petzoid. Whether or not this is 100% for certain is irrelevant to answering the question but should be pointed out. A lot of music from that era which was attributed to one composer actually turned out to be written by somebody else.

        A lot of music of the era was in fact written as exercises. Chopin's etudes (literally means exercise) were probably the most famous of them all. Whether or not Bach or Petzoid would have developed these further had they been around today is moot. Back then, you had pieces of all lengths and purposes, including those simply meant to be used as an exercise.

        It's kind of like asking, had Ford the knowledge that we have today, would they have made the Edsel in 1958? Moot point. They did and thank God it's over with. Not that there is anything wrong with piano exercises. Some are quite interesting to listen to, as is Petzoid's, Bach's, whoever.

        I guess we'll just never know what could have been.

        Imagine had Mozart lived past 35 years of age.
        Thanks and I'm curious as to what you think of this...

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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

          Thanks and I'm curious as to what you think of this...

          Walter Murphy - A Fifth Of Beethoven [HQ] - YouTube
          I'm very familiar with Walter Murphy's "5th Of Beethoven". He essentially took the main motif of Beethoven's 5th symphony and turned it into a disco tune. It was catchy and a pretty big hit. Other than that, I don't really have much to say about it. Was never my favorite tune. Not because he borrowed from Beethoven (lots of artists borrow from the greats) but because the way he did it just didn't grab me. Nothing against the piece personally. Just not my cup of tea.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            I'm very familiar with Walter Murphy's "5th Of Beethoven". He essentially took the main motif of Beethoven's 5th symphony and turned it into a disco tune. It was catchy and a pretty big hit. Other than that, I don't really have much to say about it. Was never my favorite tune. Not because he borrowed from Beethoven (lots of artists borrow from the greats) but because the way he did it just didn't grab me. Nothing against the piece personally. Just not my cup of tea.
            Whenever I hear that song I think of this:

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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    When I was younger I thought Jethro Tull had a "classical" element to them, especially Thick As A Brick.

    Here's Bouree, based on Bach's Suite in E Minor for Lute:

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Steven,

      As far as the notion they'd use synthesizers, I offer in support Isao Tomita's album, "Firebird." Starting (side A) with Stravinsky's "Firebird Suite," and moving on side B to Debussy's "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Fawn," (one of my all-time favorite pieces).

      That was done on a Moog synthesizer in the mid 70s. I can't imagine how much further they'd have moved the line by now.

      One of my most cherished pieces of vinyl.

      Moving to an omnibus reply...

      I think what gets missed by some of the genre snobs is the intention of the piece. Zappa was mentioned a few times for his orchestral integrity, and with good reason. I'd also add Brian Setzer and Elton John (esp. w/ Bernie Taupin) to that category.
      This represents the finest, expressive, most complex, difficult, tuneful, melodic music that mankind has ever produced bar none.
      Ever listened to Stevie Ray Vaughan and Double Trouble? Miles Davis? The original Carter Family? The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band?

      How about The Band? (I recommend the soundtrack from "The Last Waltz.")

      John Philip Souza? The Grateful Dead?

      The purpose of music, from the perspective of the creator, is to evoke an emotional response in the listener. To the extent that this response is of the type the composer and performer intended, it is a success. The strength of the response measures the degree of success.

      I have friends who are classical music aficionados who can't understand Robbie Robertson, Rat Dog, the Ramones, or (for that matter) Ron Perlman's poetry readings from "Of Love and Hope."

      How are they 'superior?'

      They're just different.

      Violins? Call it a fiddle and bring out Vassar Clements or Doug "the Ragin' Cajun" Kershaw. Or hell, Charlie Daniels.

      (BTW, I prefer the Chris Ledoux version of "Life is a Highway." Just sayin'.)
      every piece of music in existence spawns from classical music for the fact that it came before and was done before.
      Stevie Ray's "Tax Man." Billy Joel's "Shades of Grey." Delbert McClinton's "Ain't Never Been Rocked Enough." Michael Jackson's "Thriller." Brian Setzer's "The Knife Feels Like Justice." Miles Davis' "So What?"

      How did chamber music spawn "Champagne Charlie?"

      Demonstrate your assertion. Show your work.

      Or, hell. Let's make it easy. Carl Perkins' "Blue Suede Shoes."

      "Moonlight in Vermont?" "Moon Over Bourbon Street?"

      Extrapolate Billie Holiday from Beethoven, or Sting from Stravinsky. Go ahead. I dare you. Those two should be easy, given your stated premise.

      You might as well try to derive Mussorgsky from Muscle Shoals.
      Why do people insist on putting classical music on this pedestal like it was a gift from the gods?
      Because the academicians who write the text books are enamored of the past, and they decide who is and is not remembered as "great."

      These are the same people who think the Colosseum is a greater achievement than the power plant built in Niagara Falls by Robert Moses. But which fed more people and changed more lives?

      Find wisdom where you can. Enjoy what speaks to you. Let history tell whatever lies it chooses.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        @Paul Myers

        I can't even begin to tell you how you made my day today. Thank you.

        Also, I had no idea you were so musically knowledgeable. I think I'd probably have one of my most enjoyable evenings with you sharing some drinks (I'm down to boiled water) and talking about everything from Bach (pick one) to Zevon who died way too soon.

        In fact, here are my favorites from both.



        There is greatness in all kinds of music.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          This was always one of my favorites.


          Now listen to how Fireballet incorporates it into it's cult classic "It's About Time", one of my all time favorite prog rock pieces.


          And finally, The Move doing their thing with Bach for the finale of "Cherry Blossom Clinic Revisited" a song that was so far ahead of its time as far as rock music was concerned. I can only imagine what would have happened to ELO had Roy Wood not left the group.

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          • Profile picture of the author LynnM
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            This was always one of my favorites.

            BEETHOVEN.ODE TO JOY - YouTube
            Off topic, but I can't hear that now without thinking of this:
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              I love that flash mob - I've seen it before but love watching the "kid directors". As a child, I would have been the little girl who climbed the lamp post.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by LynnM View Post

              Off topic, but I can't hear that now without thinking of this:
              Som Sabadell flashmob - BANCO SABADELL - YouTube
              Okay, that was just way too cool. I had never heard the term flashmob before but I think it's an awesome concept.

              I wonder, has any movie director ever done a film with a flashmob sequence? I think if done right it could be very effective especially if it's a music related film like maybe the story of some composer. Just spit balling here.

              Wow, that was really awesome.

              Thanks for sharing this.
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            • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
              Originally Posted by LynnM View Post

              Off topic, but I can't hear that now without thinking of this:
              Som Sabadell flashmob - BANCO SABADELL - YouTube
              This is one of my *son's favorite songs and this video actually diverted his attention away from Minecraft.


              *(...4)
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Steven,

        As far as the notion they'd use synthesizers, I offer in support Isao Tomita's album, "Firebird." Starting (side A) with Stravinsky's "Firebird Suite," and moving on side B to Debussy's "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Fawn," (one of my all-time favorite pieces).

        That was done on a Moog synthesizer in the mid 70s. I can't imagine how much further they'd have moved the line by now.

        One of my most cherished pieces of vinyl.

        Moving to an omnibus reply...

        I think what gets missed by some of the genre snobs is the intention of the piece. Zappa was mentioned a few times for his orchestral integrity, and with good reason. I'd also add Brian Setzer and Elton John (esp. w/ Bernie Taupin) to that category.Ever listened to Stevie Ray Vaughan and Double Trouble? Miles Davis? The original Carter Family? The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band?

        How about The Band? (I recommend the soundtrack from "The Last Waltz.")

        John Philip Souza? The Grateful Dead?

        The purpose of music, from the perspective of the creator, is to evoke an emotional response in the listener. To the extent that this response is of the type the composer and performer intended, it is a success. The strength of the response measures the degree of success.

        I have friends who are classical music aficionados who can't understand Robbie Robertson, Rat Dog, the Ramones, or (for that matter) Ron Perlman's poetry readings from "Of Love and Hope."

        How are they 'superior?'

        They're just different.

        Violins? Call it a fiddle and bring out Vassar Clements or Doug "the Ragin' Cajun" Kershaw. Or hell, Charlie Daniels.

        (BTW, I prefer the Chris Ledoux version of "Life is a Highway." Just sayin'.)Stevie Ray's "Tax Man." Billy Joel's "Shades of Grey." Delbert McClinton's "Ain't Never Been Rocked Enough." Michael Jackson's "Thriller." Brian Setzer's "The Knife Feels Like Justice." Miles Davis' "So What?"

        How did chamber music spawn "Champagne Charlie?"

        Demonstrate your assertion. Show your work.

        Or, hell. Let's make it easy. Carl Perkins' "Blue Suede Shoes."

        "Moonlight in Vermont?" "Moon Over Bourbon Street?"

        Extrapolate Billie Holiday from Beethoven, or Sting from Stravinsky. Go ahead. I dare you. Those two should be easy, given your stated premise.

        You might as well try to derive Mussorgsky from Muscle Shoals.Because the academicians who write the text books are enamored of the past, and they decide who is and is not remembered as "great."

        These are the same people who think the Colosseum is a greater achievement than the power plant built in Niagara Falls by Robert Moses. But which fed more people and changed more lives?

        Find wisdom where you can. Enjoy what speaks to you. Let history tell whatever lies it chooses.


        Paul
        Paul

        I too loved Tomita, especially Snowflakes Are Dancing doing the works of Debussy. It was difficult and painstaking work to used crude synth's like that where you could only play one note at a time and had to program them and layer the sounds and record them onto 16 track tape. No midi in those days, no digital. A take and then a re-take if not perfect.

        He really took that music to a different level. A totally valid and groundbreaking re-interpretation. Walter Carlos (a female) did some very good interpretation of Beethovens work as used in Clockwork Orange.

        Some of Jarre's early original work showed promise although he only had so much good stuff to give. Mike Oldfield periodically comes up with musical passages which are truly inspired but he is patchy and self indulgent and experiments a lot.

        The modern synth is powerhouse of possibilities in sound and musical creation but still has not been realized for its true worth. No one except these early pioneers took it seriously and that is sad.

        I would really like to see sophisticated composition using it!

        How can I get this concept of the best of the classical stuff being the best music ever created over to you and others without being branded a snob or elitist though. Like I said before, I like it, I appreciate it and recognize it as superb, amazing etc. However, I listen to loads of other stuff as well. Liking music is subjective and mood enhancing and evokes emotional response like you said, whatever it is. That could be Jungle drumming and chanting or Pink Floyd, you will always get some sort of reaction. You can enjoy it for what it is.

        Without going over old ground though, here's a little test. Lets go back to the seventies and pick a year. Say Rumors by Fleetwood Mac (whenever that was, 76?) and all the other popular recordings around that time, must have albums, albums you will play to death.

        But wait, a few years pass and your playing other albums to death by new artists, Fleetwood Mac is still great but you hardly ever listen too it anymore. Years later you listen to the classic rock radio station and your humming along to an old Fleetwood Mac track but you do not think I must go out and replace my old scratched copy of my LP with a CD version or digital download. True, there are some people who pride themselves on having a huge and diverse collection of music but I suspect the don't often listen to much of it except when on nostalga trips, they are listening to newer stuff!

        And then we come to the best of the classics of which there is a lot to listen Too, When I put on my Mozart CD that I bought in 1980 for some reason it still sounds fresh, there are still subtle things and bits I have missed, it's not sounding dated and I find I can play it to death even now and not get bored with it and not feel like I need to move on like I do with contemporary, or popular music. In essence, it is timeless! No other music affects me like that. It seems to have so much more too it to discover each time you listen too it?

        The classics are recognized by consensus as being great, not just by me, but by many.

        The more you listen, the more you discover and appreciate. It's like a cerebral palate that at first rejects the food it's being given, just wants french fries, but then the palate begins to make out the subtle flavorings and start appreciating how refined and well blended this food is.

        Now, I really must get back to my new Black Sabbath 13 album.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Ian,
          How can I get this concept of the best of the classical stuff being the best music ever created over to you and others without being branded a snob or elitist though.
          Perhaps by not making absolutist statements on a subjective proposition?
          The classics are recognized by consensus as being great, not just by me, but by many.
          No-one is questioning that. There is, however, a difference between "great" and "unquestionably superior to everything else."

          Most of the generally recognized classics have been through a rather extended filtering process, and have had a lot of attention. They have developed an inertia that popular music in a fast-paced distribution system will be unlikely to achieve.

          Keep in mind the history of what is called classical music.

          If you limited the number of currently active artists/composers in any given genre to 50 at a time, selected by some elite group, you'd see a similar development of social inertia and more focus on the very best of the best. If the only way in was to play for one of those 50, you'd have thousands more skilled musicians looking for a part in the established order, making for what would amount to pop orchestras. That would add to the entrenchment of the names at the top of that list.

          Would that make the music itself any better? I'm not convinced. I've listened to Carlos Nakai both solo and with an orchestral backup. I didn't find the latter to be more enjoyable or evocative.

          With that limiting system you'd have the recreation of the "classical" dynamic. And an incredible shrinking of the variety of messages within the music.

          You'd also have lost people like John Coltrane and Jimmy Page in the process.


          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          No other music affects me like that.
          It's great that you are affected in such a way by a certain type of music, but kind of sad that you can't seem to get the same joy from other genres.

          This discussion brings to mind how many people can't appreciate modern art still. Some can't seem to understand and appreciate Picasso, even 100 years after he did his groundbreaking works. Some even have a problem appreciating the genius of Van Gogh.

          When someone says they only like the works from the "old masters" I feel they aren't opening up their minds enough. There are and have been modern day masters to rival those of the past. My two favorite visual artists ever are Picasso and Michelangelo. Both masters and super talented geniuses, but very different styles. In music, there have been some modern day masters in genres outside of classical that rival the greatness of the classical masters.

          Keith Jarret has had a long career as both a Jazz and Classical musician. He's won awards for both. I remember he played a Bartok piano piece years ago and one classical critic said it was one of the 3 most difficult piano pieces in history and Jarrett performed it flawlessly. He has the discipline and training to pull that off and yet can perform for 2 hours on solo piano totally improvising, like he did in the grammy winning Koln Concert. Or play with Miles Davis in his best fusion groups. Or play in small jazz combos. All great music really.
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          • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

            It's great that you are affected in such a way by a certain type of music, but kind of sad that you can't seem to get the same joy from other genres.

            This discussion brings to mind how many people can't appreciate modern art still. Some can't seem to understand and appreciate Picasso, even 100 years after he did his groundbreaking works. Some even have a problem appreciating the genius of Van Gogh.

            When someone says they only like the works from the "old masters" I feel they aren't opening up their minds enough. There are and have been modern day masters to rival those of the past. My two favorite visual artists ever are Picasso and Michelangelo. Both masters and super talented geniuses, but very different styles. In music, there have been some modern day masters in genres outside of classical that rival the greatness of the classical masters.

            Keith Jarret has had a long career as both a Jazz and Classical musician. He's won awards for both. I remember he played a Bartok piano piece years ago and one classical critic said it was one of the 3 most difficult piano pieces in history and Jarrett performed it flawlessly. He has the discipline and training to pull that off and yet can perform for 2 hours on solo piano totally improvising, like he did in the grammy winning Koln Concert. Or play with Miles Davis in his best fusion groups. Or play in small jazz combos. All great music really.
            I do actually get a lot of joy from lots of music as I have said. As for its prolonged sustainability to keep me entranced and stimulated for an indefinite period, that's not often the case. I do tend to move on. I do have some favorites of contemporary artists though, like the Album, The Songs Of Distant Earth by Mike Oldfield. I could listen to that forever repeating listenings indefinitely.

            But, not for the reasons some may think, it has atmospherics and evokes a sort of meditative state and relaxation/contemplation. So for that it's perfect. Musically although it has some inspired moments and good melodic content it has a lot of repetition of themes. That though is more suited to meditation though as it focuses the mind.

            Some classical music has the same effect, the more mellow stuff. I like New Age synth music generally and have composed some myself and even sold some.

            While I would say that any composition of music has some rules to follow in construction I am more blurred about art. There is the art of making accurate representations of your subject which initally when young thought well that's what it is. Then there is the more impressionistic stuff which I learned to appreciate. But when I see some of the stuff around these days where a guy throws a blob of paint on a 20 foot canvas and expects to win a Turner prize, well that just leaves me cold.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
              Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

              While I would say that any composition of music has some rules to follow in construction I am more blurred about art.
              Music is art and there are no rules in art.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Music is art and there are no rules in art.
                Actually Tim, back in the stone ages of music there were rules. There still are, such as no parallel 5ths. How often they're actually followed today, not sure. But yes, at one time, if you did certain things musically you were looked down upon if by no one else other than other musicians.

                In fact, you can read all about the "rules" of music at any one of many "authority" sites. Just go to Google and look up "rules of music."
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  Actually Tim, back in the stone ages of music there were rules. There still are, such as no parallel 5ths. How often they're actually followed today, not sure. But yes, at one time, if you did certain things musically you were looked down upon if by no one else other than other musicians.

                  In fact, you can read all about the "rules" of music at any one of many "authority" sites. Just go to Google and look up "rules of music."
                  Yeah, there are rules in music, painting, sculpture, writing etc... These rules are created by other artists, schools, organizations, the public or the artists themselves. The artist though has the choice whether or not to follow these rules and of course most of them do because they want to make a living. Afterall, a musician has to follow rules to play in a band or orchestra. It's still their choice though.

                  Throughout history these rules have been broken and many times great artists are the ones who break them. "'Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist." ~ Picasso. So this is why I say there really aren't rules in art. Every artist has that choice to follow rules or not.
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                  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    Yeah, there are rules in music, painting, sculpture, writing etc... These rules are created by other artists, schools, organizations, the public or the artists themselves. The artist though has the choice whether or not to follow these rules and of course most of them do because they want to make a living. Afterall, a musician has to follow rules to play in a band or orchestra. It's still their choice though.

                    Throughout history these rules have been broken and many times great artists are the ones who break them. "'Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist." ~ Picasso. So this is why I say there really aren't rules in art. Every artist has that choice to follow rules or not.
                    As far as music is concerned I'm not entirely clear on the terminology. Here are some components of R & B music but I'm not sure what they all mean but I'll take a guess where I can and I don't mind being corrected.


                    Rhythm:

                    A regular pattern of sound.

                    Beat:

                    Some people seem to get rhythm and beat mixed up.

                    When MC Hammer was on Oprah and Oprah couldn't do his dance I heard a few people remark that she didn't have any rhythm.

                    I thought that has much stuff as MC does between each beat, he would make even me look like I couldn't keep a beat - if I tried to keep up with him. All I can do for the most part, is to hit the beat after maybe couple of movements - not 4-6 movements between each beat.

                    Rest:

                    Stop?

                    Melody:

                    Harmony:

                    The blending of two sounds normally involving voices.

                    It has been deemed by the upper harmonics... (long P-Funk story)

                    Bridge: Horns signaling a change or just a break before the rhythm starts all over again.

                    Accent: A heightened beat.

                    Riff: Guitar riff?

                    The One:

                    James Brown.

                    The beat all musicians return to in many R & B compositions. The accent is often extra accented on the one. The one can happen after 2,4 or 8 beats - even 16 beats I guess.

                    I remember a musician friend saying that everyone follows the drummer in R & B music and maybe that's the case for all modern music.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                      As far as music is concerned I'm not entirely clear on the terminology. Here are some components of R & B music but I'm not sure what they all mean but I'll take a guess where I can and I don't mind being corrected.


                      Rhythm:

                      A regular pattern of sound.

                      Beat:

                      Some people seem to get rhythm and beat mixed up.

                      When MC Hammer was on Oprah and Oprah couldn't do his dance I heard a few people remark that she didn't have any rhythm.

                      I thought that has much stuff as MC does between each beat, he would make even me look like I couldn't keep a beat - if I tried to keep up with him. All I can do for the most part, is to hit the beat after maybe couple of movements - not 4-6 movements between each beat.

                      Rest:

                      Stop?

                      Melody:

                      Harmony:

                      The blending of two sounds normally involving voices.

                      It has been deemed by the upper harmonics... (long P-Funk story)

                      Bridge: Horns signaling a change or just a break before the rhythm starts all over again.

                      Accent: A heightened beat.

                      Riff: Guitar riff?

                      The One:

                      James Brown.

                      The beat all musicians return to in many R & B compositions. The accent is often extra accented on the one. The one can happen after 2,4 or 8 beats - even 16 beats I guess.

                      I remember a musician friend saying that everyone follows the drummer in R & B music and maybe that's the case for all modern music.
                      TL, a lot of people confuse beat and rhythm. Here's a simple way to differentiate the two.

                      Beat - is usually steady, especially in pop music. Accents are usually on 2 and 4. That's why a lot of times you'll hear the term beats per minute, or BPM. A moderate BPM is about 120. But see, that can be deceiving.

                      That's where rhythm comes in. Rhythm is what gives music its character or makes it interesting. Imagine if every song was literally 4/4 with accents on 2 and 4 and the rhythm was also on each beat or on each 2 and 4. The music would sound robotic and stiff, not that some music isn't like that. But I digress. You can still keep a steady beat while having an intricate or complex rhythm.

                      Here's an example. It's a song we all know. The beat is a steady 4/4 but listen to the way the rhythm guitar is being played. You can tap out the steady 4/4 through this whole song (sounds about 120 bpm but I can't be sure) but the way the guitar is being played is what makes this song so interesting.


                      So that is essentially the difference between beat and rhythm.
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                      • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                        TL, a lot of people confuse beat and rhythm. Here's a simple way to differentiate the two.

                        Beat - is usually steady, especially in pop music. Accents are usually on 2 and 4. That's why a lot of times you'll hear the term beats per minute, or BPM. A moderate BPM is about 120. But see, that can be deceiving.

                        That's where rhythm comes in. Rhythm is what gives music its character or makes it interesting.

                        Imagine if every song was literally 4/4 with accents on 2 and 4 and the rhythm was also on each beat or on each 2 and 4. The music would sound robotic and stiff, not that some music isn't like that. But I digress. You can still keep a steady beat while having an intricate or complex rhythm.

                        Here's an example. It's a song we all know. The beat is a steady 4/4 but listen to the way the rhythm guitar is being played.

                        You can tap out the steady 4/4 through this whole song (sounds about 120 bpm but I can't be sure) but the way the guitar is being played is what makes this song so interesting.

                        (1974) Bachman Turner Overdrive - You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet - YouTube

                        So that is essentially the difference between beat and rhythm.
                        Thanks and I heard that great song last week when I played my Rock-Folk playlist. I listened to it again per your instructions and think I get it.


                        I love the changes or bridges on this song (I think that's what they're called) and the lead guitar is definitely leading.

                        This song has everything except some harmony but it's not needed.

                        These guys knew how to take care of business.

                        There's a great story behind the recording of vocals for this song.

                        Thanks!!

                        TL
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                        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                          Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                          Thanks and I heard that great song last week when I played my Rock-Folk playlist. I listened to it again per your instructions and think I get it.


                          I love the changes or bridges on this song (I think that's what they're called) and the lead guitar is definitely leading.

                          This song has everything except some harmony but it's not needed.

                          These guys knew how to take care of business.

                          There's a great story behind the recording of vocals for this song.

                          Thanks!!

                          TL
                          I'd like to hear the story sometime.

                          Here's another tune that's in 7/4 time, which is why it sounds a little choppy. Ironically, the rhythm of this song is actually very close to the beat otherwise it would sound very strange. In fact, this is one of the few 7/4 songs in rock history that turned out to be a fairly big hit. Most stuff this "complex" is usually relegated to the albums and buried. But not this one.

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                          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                            I'd like to hear the story sometime.

                            Here's another tune that's in 7/4 time, which is why it sounds a little choppy. Ironically, the rhythm of this song is actually very close to the beat otherwise it would sound very strange. In fact, this is one of the few 7/4 songs in rock history that turned out to be a fairly big hit. Most stuff this "complex" is usually relegated to the albums and buried. But not this one.

                            Money - Pink Floyd HD (Studio Version) - YouTube
                            Funny how I'm way familiar with this song but I don't have it in my Itunes collection and on my Iphone.

                            I don't but I should have at least "machine" and "dark" since as teanagers my friends and I spent a whole summer holed up in Mike's attack while listening to Pink and stuff like Led. Of course there were refreshments.

                            So that's a 7/4? And thanks for the reminder.


                            My absolute fav type of music is the music from the Funk Bands of the 1970s and maybe early 1980s with a nasty lead guitar - here typified by this cut by a group named Slave.

                            I believe this song has a bouncy base, nice rhythm guitar, a very explosive one, horns and a very nasty lead guitar.

                            Here's Drac Is Back!

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                          • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                            I'd like to hear the story sometime.

                            Here's another tune that's in 7/4 time, which is why it sounds a little choppy. Ironically, the rhythm of this song is actually very close to the beat otherwise it would sound very strange. In fact, this is one of the few 7/4 songs in rock history that turned out to be a fairly big hit. Most stuff this "complex" is usually relegated to the albums and buried. But not this one.

                            Money - Pink Floyd HD (Studio Version) - YouTube
                            I've always loved the bass line in Money. Real simple, but I think it makes the song.
                            1-2and3-4 1-2-3, 1-2and 3-4 1-2-3.
                            Even during the break in the middle (3:06) when it slips into 4/4 all he does is, and 1-2-3-4, and 1-2-3-4.
                            No matter how complex or simple a song is the drummer always has to know where 1 is.
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                          • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                            I'd like to hear the story sometime.

                            Here's another tune that's in 7/4 time, which is why it sounds a little choppy. Ironically, the rhythm of this song is actually very close to the beat otherwise it would sound very strange. In fact, this is one of the few 7/4 songs in rock history that turned out to be a fairly big hit. Most stuff this "complex" is usually relegated to the albums and buried. But not this one.

                            Money - Pink Floyd HD (Studio Version) - YouTube

                            Steve, what goes on with Rastafarian music?


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                            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                              Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                              I've always loved the bass line in Money. Real simple, but I think it makes the song.
                              1-2and3-4 1-2-3, 1-2and 3-4 1-2-3.
                              Even during the break in the middle (3:06) when it slips into 4/4 all he does is, and 1-2-3-4, and 1-2-3-4.
                              No matter how complex or simple a song is the drummer always has to know where 1 is.
                              Thom, when I used to play the drums (and I was an average drummer at best) this song used to give me fits. It took me a very long time to be able to play it competently. Pink Floyd was such a pioneer back in the day. It's no wonder Dark Side Of The Moon was on the charts for years.

                              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                              Steve, what goes on with Rastafarian music?


                              BOB MARLEY - JAMMING (Live) - YouTube
                              Honestly, I'm not familiar with the term Rastafarian. Of course I'm sure there are lots of musical genres I'm not familiar with.
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                            • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                              Raggae is usually just a 4/4 time.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                              Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                              Steve, what goes on with Rastafarian music?


                              BOB MARLEY - JAMMING (Live) - YouTube
                              I always thought that song was considered reggae. What's the difference between reggae and rastafarian?
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                              • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                I always thought that song was considered reggae. What's the difference between reggae and rastafarian?
                                Rastafarian is the religion many reggae artists practice. One of the practices is to smoke plenty of ganja.
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                                • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                  Rastafarian is the religion many reggae artists practice. One of the practices is to smoke plenty of ganja.
                                  Actually that's not true Tim. Many Rastafari don't smoke anything. They believe Haile Selassie was the second coming of Christ, that their bodies are temples which explains their strict diet which is close to a vegan diet but the main principle is to eat natural foods. They also take many of their spiritual teachings from the bible.
                                  I looked into it years ago because of my love for Cannabis.
                                  It's very interesting, but I think it's a unique Jamaican religion that is really only for Jamaicans.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                                    Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

                                    Actually that's not true Tim. Many Rastafari don't smoke anything. They believe Haile Selassie was the second coming of Christ, that their bodies are temples which explains their strict diet which is close to a vegan diet but the main principle is to eat natural foods. They also take many of their spiritual teachings from the bible.
                                    I looked into it years ago because of my love for Cannabis.
                                    It's very interesting, but I think it's a unique Jamaican religion that is really only for Jamaicans.
                                    Well, many don't smoke it but many, many do. Among the Jamaican population it is estimated that 60 to 70% smoke pot. I would think the % of Rastas who smoke is higher than that. Those that do, consider it a sacrament for their religion.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                                      Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                      Well, many don't smoke it but many, many do. Among the Jamaican population it is estimated that 60 to 70% smoke pot. I would think the % of Rastas who smoke is higher than that. Those that do, consider it a sacrament for their religion.
                                      It's really more of a stereotype. The reason so many Jamaicans smoke is because they view it as a natural medicine. Being that it's know to be natural it's not opposed by Rastafari. It is common and is used by those who smoke it to cleans the body and open the mind. But it's not one of the practices that every Rastafari does.
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                                • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                                  Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                                  Rastafarian is the religion many reggae artists practice. One of the practices is to smoke plenty of ganja.
                                  What is this ganja?


                                  I'm surprised there are not Rastafarian churches springing up around Colorado.
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                              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                                I always thought that song was considered reggae. What's the difference between reggae and rastafarian?
                                I forgot about the term reggae and used rastafari instead.
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              • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                Music is art and there are no rules in art.
                It depends on your definition of rules. Take music first. If you are talking about its possibilities in what sort of pieces or songs and styles you could ultimately create then there is much more to explore. The instruments you use, the sounds you use, (some are yet to be invented) Your limitations are what your ears can perceive in the low and the high note range and your brains ability to follow it.

                If however you are talking about what I meant, the compositional process, we don't just sit down and wildly bash notes out on a keyboard, record it and say that's my peice. It just sounds like discordant crap.

                We work out time signatures, what key to play in, what chord sequences to play, what notes,/melodys to play over the top of them that sound right and fit in, What instruments to choose that compliment each other etc. Wether we have had loads of musical training or not we still follow some basic musical rules to make something coherent and pleasing.

                As for art, I bet most of the artists today and in the past have had some formal training or a mentor. We all have some level of artistic ability but can enhance it a lot by learning how to draw and paint, what colors go together, what materials to use, what techniques to use.. etc. If we study and practice we are all capable of becoming reasonable artists

                My wife, a graphic designer for 25 years taught me a lot about good layout and placement and usage of themed, complimenting colors. My website creation benefited a lot from her input.

                Simple adjustments like not having pictures one under the other, having one left and one right further down so the eye follows it so it flows.

                So having the basic rules and tools of the trade down in both art and music creation allows some to make the jump and stand above others because they have this extra ability to create.
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                • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                  Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                  We work out time signatures, what key to play in, what chord sequences to play, what notes,/melodys to play over the top of them that sound right and fit in, What instruments to choose that compliment each other etc.
                  Those aren't rules. That's creating some sort of structure of a piece. Where are the rules in that? I still say there are only rules if the artist decides to follow rules, otherwise there are no rules in art.

                  Here is one of my favorite piano players. I'm pretty sure it will not be your cup of tea, but I love his music and the guy in green card likely had seen him play before I'm willing to bet. You might say he does just sit down and wildly bash on the piano I suppose but I think he just is playing in his own way. He studied at New York College of Music and New England Conservatory. As Picasso said, he learned the rules like a pro and then broke them as an artist.

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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    Those aren't rules. That's creating some sort of structure of a piece. Where are the rules in that? I still say there are only rules if the artist decides to follow rules, otherwise there are no rules in art.

                    Here is one of my favorite piano players. I'm pretty sure it will not be your cup of tea, but I love his music and the guy in green card likely had seen him play before I'm willing to bet. You might say he does just sit down and wildly bash on the piano I suppose but I think he just is playing in his own way. He studied at New York College of Music and New England Conservatory. As Picasso said, he learned the rules like a pro and then broke them as an artist.

                    Cecil Taylor - Free Improvisation #3 - YouTube
                    There is no question that this guy can play and knows his stuff. But in breaking the rules he also followed quite a few, subtle as they are.

                    If you listen carefully, there is a definite structure to this madness. You need to listen to some 1950s and 1960s mysteries to hear it. This is typical "Don't go in there or you're gonna die" murder mystery stuff, just a bit more exaggerated. There are no major or even minor chords in the entire piece but definite references to augmented and diminished with lots of 11ths and 13ths thrown in. If one was just "banging" on the piano, this would be very difficult to do. Plus, there are no parallel 4ths or 5ths in this piece. For that matter, there is very little traditional harmony. But there is nothing "out of place." It all fits. Improvised as it is, it's what I called "structured chaos" which you can only accomplish if you really know your stuff. Had you not told me where he went to school, I would have guessed that he was classically trained.

                    Very interesting piece. Makes some of my improvised stuff seem tame in comparison. I'm trying to stretch myself as a composer to do things like this but my inner ear just won't let me. I don't have the confidence in my own ability to pull off something so intricate, which this is.

                    A musical analysis class would have a blast with this piece because there is a structure to the improvisation. Listen again and watch out for the repeated passages. There are several as well as several repeated themes. That's why the 10 minutes didn't seem like 10 minutes as there were themes to follow. Well done and very clever.

                    Because of all the repeats, I wouldn't call this true improvisation. I would categorize it more as avant garde. But that's splitting hairs.

                    Somebody with no musical training and absolutely no natural talent WOULD sound like he was just pounding on the keys.

                    This isn't that. Not by a long shot.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                      Excellent Steve! I didn't see that response coming. Very good breakdown of the piece and I'm totally impressed with your ability to truely appreciate a work that frankly most people would have a problem with.

                      Your right also in that this genre of jazz has some origins in classical music. I enjoyed the Stravinsky piece too.
                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                      There is no question that this guy can play and knows his stuff. But in breaking the rules he also followed quite a few, subtle as they are.

                      If you listen carefully, there is a definite structure to this madness. You need to listen to some 1950s and 1960s mysteries to hear it. This is typical "Don't go in there or you're gonna die" murder mystery stuff, just a bit more exaggerated. There are no major or even minor chords in the entire piece but definite references to augmented and diminished with lots of 11ths and 13ths thrown in. If one was just "banging" on the piano, this would be very difficult to do. Plus, there are no parallel 4ths or 5ths in this piece. For that matter, there is very little traditional harmony. But there is nothing "out of place." It all fits. Improvised as it is, it's what I called "structured chaos" which you can only accomplish if you really know your stuff. Had you not told me where he went to school, I would have guessed that he was classically trained.

                      Very interesting piece. Makes some of my improvised stuff seem tame in comparison. I'm trying to stretch myself as a composer to do things like this but my inner ear just won't let me. I don't have the confidence in my own ability to pull off something so intricate, which this is.

                      A musical analysis class would have a blast with this piece because there is a structure to the improvisation. Listen again and watch out for the repeated passages. There are several as well as several repeated themes. That's why the 10 minutes didn't seem like 10 minutes as there were themes to follow. Well done and very clever.

                      Because of all the repeats, I wouldn't call this true improvisation. I would categorize it more as avant garde. But that's splitting hairs.

                      Somebody with no musical training and absolutely no natural talent WOULD sound like he was just pounding on the keys.

                      This isn't that. Not by a long shot.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                        Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                        Excellent Steve! I didn't see that response coming. Very good breakdown of the piece and I'm totally impressed with your ability to truely appreciate a work that frankly most people would have a problem with.

                        Your right also in that this genre of jazz has some origins in classical music. I enjoyed the Stravinsky piece too.
                        Thanks Tim. We had to analyze music back in college and I've been doing it ever since. Kind of second nature to me now. If only I could write like this. LOL.

                        I've actually written a number of reviews on various albums which appear on my blog and also at mouth shut.

                        As for the piece, I listen to a lot of different kinds of music. If you listen to the same things all the time you don't grow. This summer I've got a summer music series thing going on over at Facebook. Each day until Labor day I am featuring a different genre of music. I'm 10 days into it. Towards the end it'll probably start getting a little tough but I'm up for the challenge.

                        If you have any other unusual pieces of music, please share them. I could listen to unusual all day.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          If you have any other unusual pieces of music, please share them. I could listen to unusual all day.
                          Not really "unusual", but Jeff Beck's last album (Emotion and Commotion 2010) has strings backing him up on all the tracks. The songs mix classical elements with modern electric guitar.

                          Here's what he said about the following song:

                          "The emotion of playing, say, 'Elegy For Dunkirk' is in some ways more intense and more gut-wrenching than playing the blues, 'cause those composers knew how to get you. The simplicity and just poring yourself into those phrasings is not dissimilar from blues at all. I'm sure people like Mahler and Holst and all the people that wrote such amazing music would agree with that. They want to get you to react."
                          This orchestral piece was originally composed by Dario Marianelli for the 2007 movie Atonement. It was part of the score that won the 2007 Oscar for Best Original Music.
                          Elegy for Dunkirk by Jeff Beck Songfacts
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                        • Profile picture of the author TimPhelan
                          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                          This summer I've got a summer music series thing going on over at Facebook. Each day until Labor day I am featuring a different genre of music. I'm 10 days into it. Towards the end it'll probably start getting a little tough but I'm up for the challenge.

                          If you have any other unusual pieces of music, please share them. I could listen to unusual all day.
                          Well Steve, I could provide you with some avant garde/free jazz pieces if you want to do a day of that. Maybe I'll start a thread here of that type of jazz. I may be the only one posting to it but it would be fun for me.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                            Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                            Well Steve, I could provide you with some avantgarde/free jazz pieces if you want to do a day of that. Maybe I'll start a thread here of that type of jazz. I may be the only one posting to it but it would be fun for me.
                            I actually wrote a jazz piece for a trio that plays at our church from time to time. The group leader called it a "good modal jam" so I guess he approved. LOL

                            I admit Jazz is probably one genre that I've touched on the least as I've only written a handful of pieces for jazz ensembles. Jazz is something you really need to develop a feel for. Let's just say I will probably never make it as a jazz composer or musician. LOL.
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                  • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                    Originally Posted by TimPhelan View Post

                    Those aren't rules. That's creating some sort of structure of a piece. Where are the rules in that? I still say there are only rules if the artist decides to follow rules, otherwise there are no rules in art.

                    Here is one of my favorite piano players. I'm pretty sure it will not be your cup of tea, but I love his music and the guy in green card likely had seen him play before I'm willing to bet. You might say he does just sit down and wildly bash on the piano I suppose but I think he just is playing in his own way. He studied at New York College of Music and New England Conservatory. As Picasso said, he learned the rules like a pro and then broke them as an artist.

                    Cecil Taylor - Free Improvisation #3 - YouTube
                    Your right, not my cup of tea. I remember seeing some small orchestras on British tv performing what sounded like random blowing plucking and piano plinking. It had musical notation in front of each so was pre-ordained It never became popular but there must be a small following of this type of stuff.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

                      Your right, not my cup of tea. I remember seeing some small orchestras on British tv performing what sounded like random blowing plucking and piano plinking. It had musical notation in front of each so was pre-ordained It never became popular but there must be a small following of this type of stuff.
                      The piece that started it all. This was a man who was truly ahead of his time. Started a riot in Paris in 1913. Paved the way for a lot of what was to follow.

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                      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
                        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                        The piece that started it all. This was a man who was truly ahead of his time. Started a riot in Paris in 1913. Paved the way for a lot of what was to follow.

                        Stravinsky: Le sacre du printemps / The Rite of Spring - YouTube
                        Yes I remember listening to this with my father along with his other works. So different and radical compared to the older composers stuff.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          Paul

          I too loved Tomita, especially Snowflakes Are Dancing doing the works of Debussy. It was difficult and painstaking work to used crude synth's like that where you could only play one note at a time and had to program them and layer the sounds and record them onto 16 track tape. No midi in those days, no digital. A take and then a re-take if not perfect.

          He really took that music to a different level. A totally valid and groundbreaking re-interpretation. Walter Carlos (a female) did some very good interpretation of Beethovens work as used in Clockwork Orange.

          Some of Jarre's early original work showed promise although he only had so much good stuff to give. Mike Oldfield periodically comes up with musical passages which are truly inspired but he is patchy and self indulgent and experiments a lot.

          The modern synth is powerhouse of possibilities in sound and musical creation but still has not been realized for its true worth. No one except these early pioneers took it seriously and that is sad.

          I would really like to see sophisticated composition using it!

          How can I get this concept of the best of the classical stuff being the best music ever created over to you and others without being branded a snob or elitist though. Like I said before, I like it, I appreciate it and recognize it as superb, amazing etc. However, I listen to loads of other stuff as well. Liking music is subjective and mood enhancing and evokes emotional response like you said, whatever it is. That could be Jungle drumming and chanting or Pink Floyd, you will always get some sort of reaction. You can enjoy it for what it is.

          Without going over old ground though, here's a little test. Lets go back to the seventies and pick a year. Say Rumors by Fleetwood Mac (whenever that was, 76?) and all the other popular recordings around that time, must have albums, albums you will play to death.

          But wait, a few years pass and your playing other albums to death by new artists, Fleetwood Mac is still great but you hardly ever listen too it anymore. Years later you listen to the classic rock radio station and your humming along to an old Fleetwood Mac track but you do not think I must go out and replace my old scratched copy of my LP with a CD version or digital download. True, there are some people who pride themselves on having a huge and diverse collection of music but I suspect the don't often listen to much of it except when on nostalga trips, they are listening to newer stuff!

          And then we come to the best of the classics of which there is a lot to listen Too, When I put on my Mozart CD that I bought in 1980 for some reason it still sounds fresh, there are still subtle things and bits I have missed, it's not sounding dated and I find I can play it to death even now and not get bored with it and not feel like I need to move on like I do with contemporary, or popular music. In essence, it is timeless! No other music affects me like that. It seems to have so much more too it to discover each time you listen too it?

          The classics are recognized by consensus as being great, not just by me, but by many.

          The more you listen, the more you discover and appreciate. It's like a cerebral palate that at first rejects the food it's being given, just wants french fries, but then the palate begins to make out the subtle flavorings and start appreciating how refined and well blended this food is.

          Now, I really must get back to my new Black Sabbath 13 album.
          I saw this last night but wanted to wait until this morning to respond because I was on my way to bed.

          Paul was very eloquent and polite in his response (to a degree) but I'm not going to be so eloquent or polite because music snobs like you make me want to throw things through walls.

          Nothing you said in your post is fact. It is all just YOUR OPINION. And you know what they say about opinions. They're like butt cracks. Everybody has one.

          So how about taking your head out of yours and recognize that just because YOU think classical music is superior doesn't make it a fact of life. I can think that old movies are superior to what they put out today. It doesn't make it a fact. It's just MY opinion.

          And every time you continue to come out with these pompous, egotistical remarks, I am going to CONTINUE to remind you that it's just...


          YOUR OPINION!!!!
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            So we're back to shouting and butt cracks....and there is the end of another conversation that WAS interesting for a while.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              So we're back to shouting and butt cracks....and there is the end of another conversation that WAS interesting for a while.
              Three times we have told this person it is just his opinion and he still refuses to acknowledge that. So what is there left to do? When children are being stubborn and obtuse sometimes the only thing left to do is yell at them.
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              • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Three times we have told this person it is just his opinion and he still refuses to acknowledge that. So what is there left to do? When children are being stubborn and obtuse sometimes the only thing left to do is yell at them.
                I hear you Steve. There's racism, sexism and now we have musicism.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator View Post

                  I hear you Steve. There's racism, sexism and now we have musicism.
                  There has always been music elitism even within genres. Know how many arguments there are about who's the better composer, Mozart or Beethoven?

                  Facts:

                  1) The earth revolves around the sun.

                  2) Water is made up of 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen.

                  3) The minimum wage in NJ as of Jan 1, 2014 is $8.25

                  Opinion:

                  Classical music is the best kind of music.

                  Some people don't get the difference between the two concepts.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                Three times we have told
                Is that the royal "we"? Or is there a "team"?

                When children are being stubborn and obtuse sometimes the only thing left to do is yell at them.
                ...and you are the adult in the room? Ok - I got it. Proceed.
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  Is that the royal "we"? Or is there a "team"?



                  ...and you are the adult in the room? Ok - I got it. Proceed.
                  Look, it's no secret that you don't like me. I get that. But when somebody is wrong, they're wrong. And if they can't have that explained to them nicely then there isn't much left to do other than beat it into their heads by any means necessary. Not that, in the grand scheme of things, it matters because people like him will never change their minds. And yes, I am speaking as someone who has his own stubborn opinions about things and has also had it beaten into his head quite a number of times at this forum what an idiot he is.

                  You can deny that, but I'll be happy to point out all the posts, yours included, where I was called just that or something to the equivalent.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    Look, it's no secret that you don't like me. I get that. But when somebody is wrong, they're wrong. And if they can't have that explained to them nicely then there isn't much left to do other than beat it into their heads by any means necessary. Not that, in the grand scheme of things, it matters because people like him will never change their minds. And yes, I am speaking as someone who has his own stubborn opinions about things and has also had it beaten into his head quite a number of times at this forum what an idiot he is.

                    You can deny that, but I'll be happy to point out all the posts, yours included, where I was called just that or something to the equivalent.
                    Yes there is Steve. You can ignore it.

                    At the end of the day, he has an opinion. You have one. They don't match. So what? At this point, you are allowing this to get under your skin and there's really no reason for it. What does trying to make him "get it" really accomplish? IMO - it will only make you feel better.

                    This is the EXACT reason why I always had a "policy" on discussing subjects of "opinions" at gatherings - especially when liquor is involved
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

                      Yes there is Steve. You can ignore it.

                      At the end of the day, he has an opinion. You have one. They don't match. So what? At this point, you are allowing this to get under your skin and there's really no reason for it. What does trying to make him "get it" really accomplish? IMO - it will only make you feel better.

                      This is the EXACT reason why I always had a "policy" on discussing subjects of "opinions" at gatherings - especially when liquor is involved
                      Mike, in that respect, why do we ever argue about anything here because in the grand scheme of things, very little matters. How many arguments that take place at this forum on a daily basis really matter?

                      So if that's the case, heck, we might as well just shut down all the forums that aren't giving actual technical advice aimed to solve a specific problem. Anything opinion related is pointless if we're just going to ignore contrarian views. And I'm not even arguing with you because you're right. In the grand scheme of things, what does it matter what any of us thinks about anything. But it still steams my clams when somebody expresses opinion as fact.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
                        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                        Mike, in that respect, why do we ever argue about anything here because in the grand scheme of things, very little matters. How many arguments that take place at this forum on a daily basis really matter?

                        So if that's the case, heck, we might as well just shut down all the forums that aren't giving actual technical advice aimed to solve a specific problem. Anything opinion related is pointless if we're just going to ignore contrarian views. And I'm not even arguing with you because you're right. In the grand scheme of things, what does it matter what any of us thinks about anything. But it still steams my clams when somebody expresses opinion as fact.
                        Steve, that's a bit simplistic (in my opinion). Debates and arguments aren't just about arguing. But as with any argument or debate you have to recognize when you hit a plateau and you can walk away. Agree to disagree. You can't always change peoples viewpoints, nor can they always change yours.

                        Healthy debate is good. Useless debate is, well, useless. Debates about "what's the greatest music ever" is even more useless. As I am sure you know
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Steven,

    I must confess, I don't own any Rat Dog albums. I've listened to 4 or 5 with my neighbor who's into them, but that's not the same thing as paying for their work. Beyond that, it's all first-hand. Stuff I actually own and listen to on a semi-regular basis.

    Yes, including Souza. When I was in my late teens, I was the bugler for an American Legion post. That meant I stood honor guard beside the caskets of men who'd served overseas, and I played "Taps" at their funerals.

    It's a simple tune, and easily learned. Still, there isn't much that will teach you the personal significance of a piece of music more than someone thanking you for sending a family member to their rest with dignity.

    These guys were fans of everyone from Hank Williams to Frank Sinatra to Bob Dylan to Bobby Vinton. At the end, none of that mattered.

    Music is what it means to you in the moment.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Steven,

      I must confess, I don't own any Rat Dog albums. I've listened to 4 or 5 with my neighbor who's into them, but that's not the same thing as paying for their work. Beyond that, it's all first-hand. Stuff I actually own and listen to on a semi-regular basis.

      Yes, including Souza. When I was in my late teens, I was the bugler for an American Legion post. That meant I stood honor guard beside the caskets of men who'd served overseas, and I played "Taps" at their funerals.

      It's a simple tune, and easily learned. Still, there isn't much that will teach you the personal significance of a piece of music more than someone thanking you for sending a family member to their rest with dignity.

      These guys were fans of everyone from Hank Williams to Frank Sinatra to Bob Dylan to Bobby Vinton. At the end, none of that mattered.

      Music is what it means to you in the moment.


      Paul
      That's okay Paul. I don't even know who Rat Dog is. Relatively speaking, the amount of music I've been exposed to in my life is a pin prick next to the amount of music that has been given to us throughout time.

      There is no way any human being could possibly listen to it all.

      Makes me wonder what greatness I've missed.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Steven,

        Rat Dog is what's left of the Grateful Dead. Sort of. Bob Weir is the Big Dog (rat?) of the group. They're pretty good, if you liked The Dead.

        Plus, they keep the whole touring experience alive for old folks who don't want to give up on being rolling stoners.


        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    We can't change people, we can only change how we react to them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Evans
      The most bizarre situations can reveal the true weaknesses of men.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      We can't change people, we can only change how we react to them.
      Can't argue with that. People don't change, at least not drastically. We all change as we age to some degree. Our priorities change from childhood to adulthood but once we get to a certain age, our values and core beliefs don't change much.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Steven,
      But when somebody is wrong, they're wrong. And if they can't have that explained to them nicely then there isn't much left to do other than beat it into their heads by any means necessary.
      Whoah.... Do you really want to stake out that position? Seriously?

      Leaving aside the whole "He's got as much right to his opinion as you or I or anyone else" thing, that's a truly dangerous place to go.

      What you've described in your last few posts translates to: "If someone believes differently than me, and refuses to either change their position or shut up, I will pursue it until one of those things happens. No matter the cost to me in anger, frustration, and obsession."

      That's major cardiac karma.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Steven,Whoah.... Do you really want to stake out that position? Seriously?

        Leaving aside the whole "He's got as much right to his opinion as you or I or anyone else" thing, that's a truly dangerous place to go.

        What you've described in your last few posts translates to: "If someone believes differently than me, and refuses to either change their position or shut up, I will pursue it until one of those things happens. No matter the cost to me in anger, frustration, and obsession."

        That's major cardiac karma.


        Paul
        When you're right you're right, but people like that still steam my clams. And the reason is because, having grown up in a performing family full of elitist snobs, I was constantly subjected to people like this on an almost daily basis. How anybody can ever want to marry a musician (yes, there are exceptions) is beyond me because most of the ones I've known think the world rises and sets around them and whatever music they play. And I have found this to be the worst among classical musicians, especially opera singers.

        My own mother, God rest her soul, was a music snob. It wasn't until late in life that she finally began to appreciate some rock music like Kansas and Elton John. For whatever reason, she loved those two. But it took her over 60 years of her life.

        So that's where I'm coming from and why these things irk me so. If I hadn't lived with it for most of my life, I probably wouldn't give two craps.

        PS - And don't even get me started on my father who still IS the biggest music snob on this planet.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Steven,
          people like that still steam my clams
          You are the one applying the heat, sir, and you're the one on the verge of a meltdown.

          Ian's opinion is just that, as you pointed out so... distinctly. (As are yours and mine and everyone else's.) He is not doing anything to interfere with your life or business, he is making no effort to force you into agreement, and he's phrased his comments in intelligent and civil fashion.

          If you've been exposed to what you see as music snobbery your whole life, one would think you'd be able to brush it (or what looks like it) off by now.

          Y'all need to learn to let the little stuff go.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Steven,You are the one applying the heat, sir, and you're the one on the verge of a meltdown.

            Ian's opinion is just that, as you pointed out so... distinctly. (As are yours and mine and everyone else's.) He is not doing anything to interfere with your life or business, he is making no effort to force you into agreement, and he's phrased his comments in intelligent and civil fashion.

            If you've been exposed to what you see as music snobbery your whole life, one would think you'd be able to brush it (or what looks like it) off by now.

            Y'all need to learn to let the little stuff go.


            Paul
            Except as one wise man once said (forget who) "It's all little stuff"
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Robert,
              "Nobodys Fault by Mine"
              Ever hear the David Bromberg version? Great tune. Whenever I hear that, I want to play Billie Holiday's "Ain't Nobody's Business" right afterward.

              Steven,
              Except as one wise man once said (forget who) "It's all little stuff"
              Why "except?" Do you feel a need for drama?

              Most things ARE small stuff.


              Paul

              PS: The live version...

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              • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Robert,Ever hear the David Bromberg version? Great tune.

                PS: The live version...
                My thanks button is used up, but thanks for that. I hadn't heard that version. Here's one of my favorite versions of Nobody's Fault...


                One of the things I find interesting about old blues songs is hearing all the different treatments of them. The differences can be dramatic. Sam Mitchell does a really nice acoustic version of this song, but I couldn't find it on YouTube.
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Steve, thats cool. I understand.

          Personally, I get a kick when my Dad shakes his head in disgust when I play "Nobodys Fault by Mine" for the umpteen time.

          Most parents are that way.

          Snobs are snobs. In the end, were does it get you to have such resentment towards these snobs ?

          Listen to what moves you and what you enjoy. A lot of people will not share your same likes.

          But who cares. In the end it should be all about you.

          P.S. Just like I like your Beethoven piece you presented. But in all honesty the Cherry Blossom thing I could have done without. My point being, it is just my opinion. Which everyone human has
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

            Steve, thats cool. I understand.

            Personally, I get a kick when my Dad shakes his head in disgust when I play "Nobodys Fault by Mine" for the umpteen time.

            Most parents are that way.

            Snobs are snobs. In the end, were does it get you to have such resentment towards these snobs ?

            Listen to what moves you and what you enjoy. A lot of people will not share your same likes.

            But who cares. In the end it should be all about you.
            My father lives in Arizona, so I don't get to see him as neither of us travel.

            I sent him a CD of some of my hard rock stuff once and he responded in an email "Please don't send me anything like this again."

            I guess I should have laughed but hearing your own father essentially call your music unlistenable garbage, well, it kind of stings. Maybe I should have appreciated his honesty. Maybe I shouldn't have cared either way.

            If I reach a point where I get to that point, where I just don't care, then what is the point? I'll stop sending people my music because it won't matter to me what they think of it. I'll just make everything about business. Is that really the way I want to live my life? I mean if you don't want to take the bad or listen to it, how can you ever get the good?

            Some of the greatest moments of my life was when somebody complimented me on something I worked so hard to achieve. I mean we're not robots. We kind of like it when somebody says something nice to us. Otherwise, if we get no acknowledgement for anything we do, it's like life has absolutely no meaning at all. We don't do things for ourselves solely. We do things for others and hope that it's appreciated or at least recognized. And anybody who says they don't care what anybody on this planet thinks about them nor if they are even said "thank you" for something they've done, I have to question how honest they're being.

            Bottom line. Before I go to meet my maker, I'd like to think that I made some kind of a difference. If I get no feedback on anything I've ever done in my whole life, how can I possibly feel I've made any difference at all? And if I haven't, then what is the point of my existence at all, just to eat and breathe? I'm sorry, but to me, that's a meaningless life.

            When people diminish other's music as not being as "good" as other music, it diminishes that person's life as well, as if to say "Oh poor you that you weren't born during the times of Mozart because that makes your music not as good and your contribution to the arts not as meaningful."

            I'm pretty sure Paul McCartney could give a crap about whether or not people think he's as good as Mozart. But I still don't like it. It's unfair to all those who just happen to be unlucky enough not to be born 300 years ago.
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              My father lives in Arizona, so I don't get to see him as neither of us travel.

              I sent him a CD of some of my hard rock stuff once and he responded in an email "Please don't send me anything like this again."

              .
              Steven,
              To be quite frank we are now talking about issues that go way, way, beyond music.No disrespect towards your Dad but these issues have more to do with general tact and empathy.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Steve - You are wrong. I don't dislike you - but I don't care for your behavior.

              Some of the greatest moments of my life was when somebody complimented me on something I worked so hard to achieve. I mean we're not robots. We kind of like it when somebody says something nice to us. Otherwise, if we get no acknowledgement for anything we do, it's like life has absolutely no meaning at all. We don't do things for ourselves solely. We do things for others and hope that it's appreciated or at least recognized. And anybody who says they don't care what anybody on this planet thinks about them nor if they are even said "thank you" for something they've done, I have to question how honest they're being.
              The meaning of my life is not dependent on the opinion of others. I don't do things for people in the hope of being recognized or appreciated. I appreciate when someone says thank you - and it can hurt when someone criticizes or blames or is rude or uncaring....but it doesn't define my life.

              I don't question the honesty of other people's emotions or interactions - because I'm only responsible for my own behavior and to myself. Above all, it's silly to worry about what people think of you...usually they aren't thinking about you at all but about themselves!

              I am the same person if people are watching as I am when I'm alone. Pretending to be something you are not - or to be more than you are - is exhausting. It puts you on a roller coaster that careens out of control leads to disappointment in yourself and in others.

              If I get no feedback on anything I've ever done in my whole life, how can I possibly feel I've made any difference at all
              Your father gave you feedback - he didn't like rock music. You probably knew that before you sent him the music. You took it as a personal rejection but maybe he really didn't like rock music...

              If you count on other people to validate your worth....you will never be happy and never be full.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Steven,

    Think about this...

    If you get you so worked up over a difference of opinion, or perspective, you're giving others way too much power over your emotions.

    Most of them don't want it. The few who do will use it to manipulate you.

    You have emotional autonomy if you choose to exercise it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Dennis,
      Most of them don't want it.
      Huge point.

      The folks who don't want it will experience it as a burden. If you put them in that position, they will resent it, since you're taking away their ability to just have a normal conversation. You make every discussion a walk through a minefield.

      Who the hell wants THAT?


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Dennis,Huge point.

        The folks who don't want it will experience it as a burden. If you put them in that position, they will resent it, since you're taking away their ability to just have a normal conversation. You make every discussion a walk through a minefield.

        Who the hell wants THAT?


        Paul
        So how do you learn to spot those who don't want to hear anybody else's opinions? This is very hard to do with just one comment. Don't you need to see at least a little history before you know, as you say, not to walk through that minefield?
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Steven,
          So how do you learn to spot those who don't want to hear anybody else's opinions?
          Why would you need to? Are you still stuck on the whole "Discussion is about winning" thing?

          You never learn anything that way. And if you make every conversation a battle, you lose the people who might learn something from you.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Steven,Why would you need to? Are you still stuck on the whole "Discussion is about winning" thing?

            You never learn anything that way. And if you make every conversation a battle, you lose the people who might learn something from you.


            Paul
            So then correct me if I'm wrong. After reading he post about how classical music is superior I was just supposed to smile, say to myself "That's nice" and gone on with my day? Should I have not responded at all? I thought your response was very well put and done in a very eloquent way without getting nasty. I know that's something I have to work on, but my point is, you did address his remarks essentially saying what I said in not so nice a manner, that it was just his opinion.

            I guess until I can learn not to blow my stack whenever somebody says something that I don't agree with, I should probably just keep out of it.

            Makes sense?
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Steven,

              Good grief. You still don't see what you're doing.

              No-one is saying you shouldn't chime in if you disagree. Just don't forget that it's friendly conversation. That's about give and take, not demand and shout. Banter, not bluster.

              If you look closely at Ian's response to my post, I think you'll find that you and he agree on nearly everything that's been made clear, and probably most of what hasn't. You're presenting similar views from different perspectives.

              And yet, you're insulting him.

              Too often, you turn conversations into wrestling matches. It's probably the biggest reason so many people give you a hard time.


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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                @Paul, @Mike, @Kay

                When you're right, you're right. My mom used to say to me all the time, "Steven, you are your own worst enemy. You have no social intelligence at all and it's going to be your undoing."

                My mother, with all her quirks, was a very smart woman and I miss her.

                She could charm the pants off a room full of pit bulls.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Steven,

                  Jay Abraham likes to tell a story about a chance encounter he had one evening. He had just arrived at the hotel where he was speaking at a conference. He was exhausted, and relaxing with a drink before going to his room. He got into a conversation with someone and was too tired to add much to the discourse. His only comments were to ask the other guy about himself.

                  When he was ready to leave, the fellow remarked to Jay that he was the most interesting person he'd spoken to in ages.

                  Something to think about.


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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Steven,

                    Jay Abraham likes to tell a story about a chance encounter he had one evening. He had just arrived at the hotel where he was speaking at a conference. He was exhausted, and relaxing with a drink before going to his room. He got into a conversation with someone and was too tired to add much to the discourse. His only comments were to ask the other guy about himself.

                    When he was ready to leave, the fellow remarked to Jay that he was the most interesting person he'd spoken to in ages.

                    Something to think about.


                    Paul
                    Jay Abraham must have read Napoleon Hill.

                    I did, but I guess it never sunk in.

                    Nice story, thanks.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Dennis,

                    I hear ya. Another example is "Ain't Nobody's Business." I had a book years ago by that title, and it came with a CD with a bunch of different versions. Some were far enough apart to mistake for a completely different song.

                    All good, but not at all alike.


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                • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                  Steven -

                  When I feel down or worthless, I look at my sons and their accomplishments and I KNOW I did something important. They don't have to tell me I was a good parent. I know I was because I can see what they grew up to be. I see what their children are becoming and I know I counted.

                  What greater validation could you have than your daughter?
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                  • Profile picture of the author discrat
                    Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                    Steven -

                    When I feel down or worthless, I look at my sons and their accomplishments and I KNOW I did something important. They don't have to tell me I was a good parent. I know I was because I can see what they grew up to be. I see what their children are becoming and I know I counted.

                    What greater validation could you have than your daughter?
                    Kay,
                    the older I get the more I realize what you are talking about is a true blessing.

                    I know some people do not or cannot have kids and I think they have blessings in other regards.

                    But you guys could literally call me a good for nothing scum here at Warrior. And the fact that my children think the opposite makes me not get down over such trivial things.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    How about one of my favorite songs...Return to Forever's "Excerpt From The First Movement Of Heavy Metal"...

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      I'd like to return to the original question, if I may.

      Forgetting about talent (which is subjective anyway) aren't we really comparing apples to oranges? Hear me out just for a moment.

      Back in the days of Mozart and Beethoven, there was very little music beforehand (relatively speaking, at least compared to how much has come before us today) and also very little technology in order to create that music.

      On the one hand, lack of technology does require them to do more with less. I know there is now way I could have written my symphony and piano concerto back in the old days using just pen and paper. I wouldn't have had the patience. But today, with music composition software, it makes things a lot easier and quicker. Sure, you still have to come up with the notes, but once you do, getting them down is a breeze. So on that level, I have a great deal of admiration for the old timers.

      On the other hand, having so little music done before them, it gives them more room for experimentation. It was less likely that they were going to come up with something that had already been done.

      To give you an example of what I'm talking about, all my contacts in the music industry have all essentially told me the same thing. My lyrics aren't different enough. They're saying the same thing that have already been said. I've been told I need to do that but do it in a different way. That becomes harder and harder to do the more music that gets written.

      Listen to some of the early pop tunes. The lyrics were very simple as were the rhymes. You can't even think about rhyming above with love anymore or you'd be laughed out of the business. And Broadway tunesmiths have it even tougher. Broadway is not allowed the use of false rhymes, like we have in rock and pop music. Rhymes like "up" and "enough". You can't do that on Broadway. So, with all the Broadway tunes that have been written so far, it becomes more and more difficult to come up with something lyrically unique and interesting.

      In that regard, I can't even begin to tell you how much respect I have for today's composers because almost anything they do is going to be compared to something that came before it unless it is so radically different in its own right.

      Think about it. How many times do you hear a song and say to yourself, "That reminds me of..." Okay, how many times do you hear a song and say "I've never heard anything like that in my life." Not many, at least not for me. Most music, even classical music, is pretty similar in many aspects if for no other reason than it has to be identifiable by the masses or most people won't get it. That's why we HAVE forms like the sonata and the symphony and whatever.

      We have had so much experimental music throughout the ages, but how much of it ever caught on? I can't psychologically explain why certain sounds are more "pleasing" to the human ear than others, why C, A Minor, F and G is one of the most common chord progressions in popular music or why Tangerine Dream only developed a cult following while The Beatles sold millions of records. Obviously, and by a wide margin, one was universally liked more than the other. On a technical level, one could argue that Tangerine Dream surpassed the Beatles in musical complexity. But so what? How will history look at these two groups? They're not even in the same league success wise.

      Imagine had Tangerine Dream got together in the 1700s and composed the same kind of music. We wouldn't be talking about Stravinsky's "Rite Of Spring" as being so "radical" the way we did when it was first performed. That piece literally caused a riot in Paris in 1913. I seriously doubt that any kind of music created today, no matter how different, could do that. Hell, listen to Cee Lo Green's FU from 2010. That was the number 7 song of the year in 2011. There was a time when something like that couldn't even make the radio.

      So yes, today's composers and musicians have more tools at their disposal but they also have more that they have to overcome as far as "familiarity" goes. Stuff that would have been a super big "hit" 30 years ago wouldn't even make the charts today. And not because it's dated but because it's already been done. We are constantly looking for "new".

      With only 12 different notes on a standard keyboard (unless you want to start messing with micro tunings) that's not as easy to pull off as it was 300 years ago when everything was new.

      Because of that fact, I give today's musicians a lot of credit and I feel they deserve to be recognized for their work every bit as much as the old timers and not penalized just because they happen to be born 300 years later.
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      • Profile picture of the author discrat
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post




        We have had so much experimental music throughout the ages, but how much of it ever caught on? I can't psychologically explain why certain sounds are more "pleasing" to the human ear than others, why C, A Minor, F and G is one of the most common chord progressions in popular music or why Tangerine Dream only developed a cult following while The Beatles sold millions of records. Obviously, and by a wide margin, one was universally liked more than the other. On a technical level, one could argue that Tangerine Dream surpassed the Beatles in musical complexity. But so what? How will history look at these two groups? They're not even in the same league success wise.
        Hey Steve. Good point. Iam listening to Tangerine Dream as we speak.

        I can tell you exactly why Tangerine Dream has a smallish cult following...because the music just does NOT resonant with a whole lot of different people.

        This is no slam towards this group. On the contrary, as a musician I can appreciate their ability and musicality.

        But I think you are spot on when you talk about how some chords , riffs, choruses, hooks etc..somehow are just more pleasing to the regular human being. It is puzzling but maybe it is how a large consensus of us are wired together or something.

        Case in point : My mother who is almost 80 now was one time humming a commercial and it happened to be a Beatles Song. I cannot remember which one I think "All you need is Love". But I turned to her and told her that was a Beatles song.

        She said, "WOW. I never liked Rock and Roll. But I wish i had listened to them back in 60s when I was having babies ".
        Another time she was listening to Orchestra music on radio and it was a Beatles song and when I told her Paul Mccartney and the Beatles wrote it she was totally miffed.

        I think McCartney and Lennon had a incredible gift to write hooks and riffs and lyrics that transcended numerous generations. I know not everyone loves the Beatles ( for me I really like them,but not Love)

        But there are at least a few of their songs that most people tap their foot to or snap their fingers to in a certain context. Whether that be if the song is performed by the Beatles or maybe in an orchestra setting or something

        Honestly, I am trying to decipher hooks in Tangerine Dream that might be poignant to a large array of people but I am just not hearing it.

        Talented musicians though
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by discrat View Post

          Hey Steve. Good point. Iam listening to Tangerine Dream as we speak.

          I can tell you exactly why Tangerine Dream has a smallish cult following...because the music just does NOT resonant with a whole lot of different people.

          This is no slam towards this group. On the contrary, as a musician I can appreciate their ability and musicality.

          But I think you are spot on when you talk about how some chords , riffs, choruses, hooks etc..somehow are just more pleasing to the regular human being. It is puzzling but maybe it is how a large consensus of us are wired together or something.

          Case in point : My mother who is almost 80 now was one time humming a commercial and it happened to be a Beatles Song. I cannot remember which one I think "All you need is Love". But I turned to her and told her that was a Beatles song.

          She said, "WOW. I never liked Rock and Roll. But I wish i had listened to them back in 60s when I was having babies ".
          Another time she was listening to Orchestra music on radio and it was a Beatles song and when I told her Paul Mccartney and the Beatles wrote it she was totally miffed.

          I think McCartney and Lennon had a incredible gift to write hooks and riffs and lyrics that transcended numerous generations. I know not everyone loves the Beatles ( for me I really like them,but not Love)

          But there are at least a few of their songs that most people tap their foot to or snap their fingers to in a certain context. Whether that be if the song is performed by the Beatles or maybe in an orchestra setting or something

          Honestly, I am trying to decipher hooks in Tangerine Dream that might be poignant to a large array of people but I am just not hearing it.

          Talented musicians though
          It could have something to do with the "randomness" of their melodies in contrast to something like Do Re Mi which may be one of the most recognizable and singable melodies ever written. Maybe complexity is just something the average person doesn't relate to. I don't know. I'm grasping at straws here because if you really want to analyze the phenomenon of why people like certain kinds of music and not others, it's actually quite fascinating. Not everybody can sit down and listen to a drum solo and enjoy it, but I know one member here specifically who probably loves drum solos. I myself like them to a point but beyond that point they tend to bore me. I need melody. That's why most African music does very little for me. Same thing with Tangerine Dream. They are an acquired taste. I can listen to them from time to time but I could never live on a steady diet of that kind of music. Eventually, I want to listen to something that I can sing to.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Zeitgeist and Ortgeist
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    And speaking of Rastas...anyone catch the news today? Obama is in Denver and was playing the Colorado govenor in a game of pool. After the game someone offered Obama a puff on a joint. LOL

    (Obama won the pool game, but turned down the ganja with a smile.)
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    What about Harry Partch?

    Fast forward to where he introduces his instruments.

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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    OK...what timing does this song have? All I know is, I'm tapping my foot with the beat, then all of a sudden I'm way off...

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      OK...what timing does this song have? All I know is, I'm tapping my foot with the beat, then all of a sudden I'm way off...

      Jeff Beck - Blast from the east - YouTube
      Kurt, without seeing the music I can't be 100% sure but it appears to alternate between 4/4 and 7/4 time which is why beat 1 seems to be coming in too early at times, thus throwing your foot tapping off. Plus, the rhythm is choppy as heck.

      This piece is just more proof of how talented Jeff Beck is.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Kurt, without seeing the music I can't be 100% sure but it appears to alternate between 4/4 and 7/4 time which is why beat 1 seems to be coming in too early at times, thus throwing your foot tapping off. Plus, the rhythm is choppy as heck.

        This piece is just more proof of how talented Jeff Beck is.
        Sounds like 7/8 time.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    Perhaps not directly related, but a very interesting read showing intelligence and good writing nonetheless.

    For Taylor Swift, the Future of Music Is a Love Story - WSJ
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Here's Benny Goodman playing Mozart:

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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    ...and then there's Captain Beefheart:

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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    I think some classical music influence here:

    (All sorts of influences, including Zeppelin, if you flip around their videos.)


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