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eLance and Countries of Origin

by BigFrank Banned
38 replies
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Greetings. I was going to post this in the Programming forum, but that's not really the best place for my question, since except for a few obvious examples, we all know that the brains of this outfit reside, here. lol

So - I head on over to eLance to begin my quest of hiring a PHP programmer to write a small, uncomplicated piece of software for one of my good clients. I foolishly offered to handle the project from start to finish, to relieve my client from entering a world that he would be totally lost in. My issues started surfacing when I perused the first 200 or so contractors in the PHP section and was only able to find 3 that were US based and one of those was an obvious transplant from India. Additionally, the US people were asking 2x to 3x the hourly rate as all the others. So my question is, what's up with that?

I have no personal aversion to hiring someone in India or Croatia, but I prefer to keep my money stateside wherever possible. And why no US people offering their services, there? What, exactly, am I missing?

If anyone has anything to interject before I head out into this minefield, I'd appreciate hearing it. Am I better off finding a site in the US that hires-out mainly US workers or is that not a viable way to go about this? I'm kinda lost, here.

Thoughts, anyone?

Cheers. - Frank
  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Frank,

    The wages are relative to the geography. Five bucks in India means a lot more to them than five bucks to someone in the US. Not to many in the US can compete on price with someone in India, Croatia, the Philippines and other countries with similar economic situations.

    Here's some outsourcing advice:

    http://www.streetdirectory.com/trave...r_project.html

    http://theyec.org/12-tips-when-outso...he-first-time/
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Frank,

      The wages are relative to the geography. Five bucks in India means a lot more to them than five bucks to someone in the US. Not to many in the US can compete on price with someone in India, Croatia, the Philippines and other countries with similar economic situations.
      Hi Dennis,

      I clearly understand that. Is that the main reason that they do not bother offering their services, there?

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Hi Dennis,

        I clearly understand that. Is that the main reason that they do not bother offering their services, there?

        Cheers. - Frank
        That would be my best guess, but "they" is a pretty large group.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          That would be my best guess, but "they" is a pretty large group.
          Yes - like everyone in India. Is that all they do, over there - other than run support desks? lol

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            Yes - like everyone in India. Is that all they do, over there - other than run support desks? lol

            Cheers. - Frank

            Hi Frank,

            Stay far away from India! Nothing personal against anyone here that's from India, but I've had horrible experiences hiring from there and have heard dozens of other stories as well.

            I'd use Odesk.com and only hire from the Philippines.

            Here's what you need to do.

            #1. Go to the site and look for a contractor in East Asia.

            #2. Enter what you're looking for. Example, "software creation" without quotes.

            #3. Narrow down the type of work you want done by using the dropdown menu on the left.

            #4. Ignore the amount of hours worked. I've gotten great work done for cheap on the lower end of the hours worked. Many are trying to prove themselves and need the reviews. Others just need the work.

            #5. Ignore their hourly rate. They'll almost always work for less. Sometimes much less. Treat them right, but use your business skills and negotiate.

            #6. I always choose the top 10% in English speaking, spelling, writing, etc. You need to know that the worker clearly understands the instructions you give them. I can teach a worker most tasks, if needed, but I don't have time to teach them the English language.

            #7. Make sure you review any work they've done previously and check their reviews. You only want the best, 4.5 to 5 star ratings.

            #8. If possible, hire them to do a small, very simple task and include detailed instructions. Make sure that they understand the instructions. Tell them it's okay if they don't. You'll be happy to explain anything they don't understand. If there's something they don't understand and you don't show patience and kindness, they'll disappear. It will be because they're completely embarrassed.

            #9. Once again, be patient and kind. Have an "open door" policy for them to ask any questions and tell them how much you will appreciate it if they ask a question rather than make a mistake. Put their mind at ease.

            10. The reason why I'm telling you to be patient is because these people aren't like Americans. Sheesh, most of the world isn't. Most of us hustle every day to make ends meet, take way too little time off to relax and live in a world of stress. These people will work hard and do a good job for you, but they're also laid back and a bit methodical. If you're on a deadline make sure that they understand that before you begin a project. Otherwise it may end up being a bad situation for both of you.

            Anyway, I hope that's helpful. I made a short video, but scrapped it after I realized I left a couple business related windows open that I'd rather not share. People have to find their own niche! LOL

            Good luck,

            Joe
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

              Hi Frank,
              Hi Joe,
              Stay far away from India! Nothing personal against anyone here that's from India, but I've had horrible experiences hiring from there and have heard dozens of other stories as well.
              That's good enough for me. I'm not making enough by managing this project that will warrant any bad experiences. Additionally, like I stated, this is a great client that and his payments are covering my modest mortgage payment. I'd like to keep it that way for a few more years. lol
              I'd use Odesk.com and only hire from the Philippines.
              I was going to ask about oDesk as a developer I know has compiled a great graphics teal entirely through that space. I'll certainly check that out.
              Here's what you need to do.

              Anyway, I hope that's helpful. I made a short video, but scrapped it after I realized I left a couple business related windows open that I'd rather not share. People have to find their own niche! LOL

              Good luck,

              Joe
              Excellent, Joe. That really, really helps. Although I would never display those traits here and ruin a well-cultivated image and persona, I am quite kind and patient when it is to my advantage to be so. lol

              I'm off to start my search and will let you know how I make out.

              Thanks, again. - Frank
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

              I'd use Odesk.com and only hire from the Philippines.
              Joe,

              Since you've used Odesk (or so it seems), does Odesk act as an escrow agent too? What I'm getting at is that if I found a software programmer I like, does the work always have to go through Odesk, or is there a way to communicate with the person you hire and set up deals without Odesk's involvement?

              Thanks.
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              • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                Joe,

                What I'm getting at is that if I found a software programmer I like, does the work always have to go through Odesk, or is there a way to communicate with the person you hire and set up deals without Odesk's involvement?

                Thanks.
                I don't think that Odesk is set up for Escrow payments. I know that Elance is and since they've merged you'd think that they would be, but I didn't find a definitive answer on their site, so I sent a support ticket. That way we'll know the answer for future reference. I'll post it as soon as I receive a reply.

                You have to go through Odesk so they can get their fees. You can communicate with them freely. My helper and I email each other all the time, but I still pay her through Odesk.

                I believe (if I remember correctly) that there's a statement in the user agreement that says you CAN hire someone away from the Odesk platform, it was either after a 3 year period, at a cost of $500.00 or both. I can't remember since I haven't read it in awhile. I or you can contact their support and ask? I'd be happy to, if you'd like?

                Note: I just sent another support ticket to get the answer to this question.

                Joe
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                • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                  Originally Posted by Joe Stewart View Post

                  Or so it seems? <snip> I've never at any time questioned your expertise. You seem like a great guy, but please don't question mine.
                  Um . . . Joe? I wasn't questioning your expertise, I was asking for it.

                  The "or so it seems" was added to indicate I wasn't assuming you've used Odesk. A person can know a lot about something like that without having used it themselves. You could have had a partner use it, for example. Or paid someone to handle deals there for you who kept you informed. Or bought a product about it. There are several ways to gain knowledge without direct experience. I knew a lot about driving a car, for example, before I was allowed to drive one.

                  If I was going to question your expertise I wouldn't have asked for it in the first place.

                  Thanks for the reply.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
                    Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                    Um . . . Joe? I wasn't questioning your expertise, I was asking for it.

                    The "or so it seems" was added to indicate I wasn't assuming you've used Odesk. A person can know a lot about something like that without having used it themselves. You could have had a partner use it, for example. Or paid someone to handle deals there for you who kept you informed. Or bought a product about it. There are several ways to gain knowledge without direct experience. I knew a lot about driving a car, for example, before I was allowed to drive one.

                    If I was going to question your expertise I wouldn't have asked for it in the first place.

                    Thanks for the reply.

                    I hadn't thought about it quite like that, Dennis. My apologies. Like I said, it wasn't all directed at you. I just had an all around bad experience before for that very reason and my first instinct was to be defensive since I'm on neutral ground.

                    Most of my Odesk experience is based on things I've learned on my own. However, I did read excellent material from both John Jonas and Justin & Chaunna Brooke that was very influential, because it explained what they'd learned about the people in the Philippines and how it's so important to treat them a certain way. If you're good to them they're very loyal.

                    I had my helper take some side work in between projects early last year and she quit. She said the guy was "nothing like me". Haha. I guess he was rude, demanding and didn't bother trying to explain anything to her. He was actually paying her more than I do, but she said the stress just wasn't worth it.

                    So yes, I must give credit to those individuals, because without them I likely wouldn't have ever tried Odesk. Still, I have around 4 years of personal experience that I can add onto what I learned from them now.

                    Joe
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    • Profile picture of the author great9
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Frank,

      The wages are relative to the geography. Five bucks in India means a lot more to them than five bucks to someone in the US. Not to many in the US can compete on price with someone in India, Croatia, the Philippines and other countries with similar economic situations.
      An average gross salary for a PHP developer in Croatia is about $2500 USD
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    A while back I considered selling services on elance until I started taking a few of their test & found them asking SEO questions about things like alexa which had nothing to do with SEO. In other words, they're not serious when it comes to SEO, they're looking for 3rd world spammers.

    Take a few of those elance test, I'm sure you'll find similar nonsense across the whole site.

    Anyways, I stopped when I got to the alexa questions & just left the site. Most of those sites are built to host glorified fiverr gigs.

    Look for a local php developer.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      A while back I considered selling services on elance until I started taking a few of their test & found them asking SEO questions about things like alexa which had nothing to do with SEO. In other words, they're not serious when it comes to SEO, they're looking for 3rd world spammers.
      Well, I can't even spell SEO without your help, so I can't speak to that. Took me a while to master spelling PHP.
      Take a few of those elance test, I'm sure you'll find similar nonsense across the whole site.
      Unless they have a test on making paella, I'd flunk.
      Anyways, I stopped when I got to the alexa questions & just left the site. Most of those sites are built to host glorified fiverr gigs.
      That's probably a bit harsh, but I'll keep that in mind.
      Look for a local php developer.
      I live in the middle of the Jersey Pine Barrens. There's no such animal. Even if I found one I think my client would balk at $50 an hour and would just not move ahead. No one wins in that scenario. Additionally, the last time I hired a US WordPress developer I sent him $2400 and never got anything in return except for sob stories of how his daughter had turned into a meth-head and he needed time to get her straightened out. That was 2 years, ago. I'm still waiting and I'm still out $2400. I'll take my chances in India. lol

      Cheers. - Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
        Banned
        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Even if I found one I think my client would balk at $50 an hour and would just not move ahead. No one wins in that scenario.
        Ahh, you have the fiver mindset client.

        Now I have no idea what this thread is trying to accomplish. At first it appeared to be a rant against junk services, apparently I misunderstood.

        Good luck turning a profit from a lowball client.






        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

        Additionally, the last time I hired a US WordPress developer I sent him $2400 and never got anything in return except for sob stories of how his daughter had turned into a meth-head and he needed time to get her straightened out. That was 2 years, ago. I'm still waiting and I'm still out $2400. I'll take my chances in India. lol

        Cheers. - Frank
        Next time start out with small projects & work your way up as the service provider becomes more trustworthy. Dumping money into an unknown isn't a good idea.
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        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
          Banned
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          Ahh, you have the fiver mindset client.

          Now I have no idea what this thread is trying to accomplish. At first it appeared to be a rant against junk services, apparently I misunderstood.

          Good luck turning a profit from a lowball client.
          There's a lot of territory between Fiverr and $50 an hour. My client has never balked at anything, price wise that I have presented him. The reason I won't present him with a $50 an hour tab is because I won't pay $50 an hour - so I guess that makes ME the Fiverr client. lol

          I feel quite confident that I'll be able to find someone to handle this project in the $25-30 per hour range. If that makes me a piker in anyone's eyes, so be it. What we're trying to accomplish ain't rocket science.

          Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            I feel quite confident that I'll be able to find someone to handle this project in the $25-30 per hour range.
            You also want to make sure the time frame is comparable. Someone that charges $50 an hour might do it in 2 hours and someone that charges $25 an hour might take 5 hours and actually cost more in the end. I've seen it happen.
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            • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

              You also want to make sure the time frame is comparable. Someone that charges $50 an hour might do it in 2 hours and someone that charges $25 an hour might take 5 hours and actually cost more in the end. I've seen it happen.
              Of course. That does need to be taken into account, but let's face it, one enters this type of arrangement flying pretty blind the first time you work with someone.

              I'm thinking of breaking the project into modules and only committing to the first person I choose to implement phase one. If I like what I get and the time frame of completion, I'll go ahead with phase two.

              Or, if it becomes too big a hassle, I'll scrap the whole idea and do it myself in Filemaker Pro. That was my first thought, but I really don't have the time for it.

              Thanks for the heads up.

              Cheers. - Frank
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

            There's a lot of territory between Fiverr and $50 an hour. My client has never balked at anything, price wise that I have presented him. The reason I won't present him with a $50 an hour tab is because I won't pay $50 an hour - so I guess that makes ME the Fiverr client. lol

            I feel quite confident that I'll be able to find someone to handle this project in the $25-30 per hour range. If that makes me a piker in anyone's eyes, so be it. What we're trying to accomplish ain't rocket science.

            Cheers. - Frank
            Then rather than waste your time HERE, why don't you do it? I'm serious! And even a lot of good Americans would do it for less than $50/hour! Not many would do it for less than $5.01.

            Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Yvon Boulianne
    Don`t pay peoples before they do the job, that`s rules #1 of outsourcing

    I also have a big problem with peoples that want to pay programmer $3/hours, that`s kind of abusive..

    A couples of years ago, i got a big contract (150K website design) and hire peoples on odesk, they where from romania and asked something like $5/ hours but i choose to pay them 10-15$ / hours to be honest and it was a very good move as these peples have been friend and very reliable..

    Better not do this job if you can't pay someone what it's worth.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Yvon Boulianne View Post

      Don`t pay peoples before they do the job, that`s rules #1 of outsourcing
      Yes - I learned that the hard way and will not make that mistake, again - ever!
      I also have a big problem with peoples that want to pay programmer $3/hours, that`s kind of abusive.
      That was never a figure I quoted. I'm happy to pay $25-30 per hour and I think that is a fair hourly rate for the project. Of course, that's a statement that can be argued ad infinitum, if you're the argumentative type. Who, me???

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    No worries, Joe. What you've told me tells me that Odesk probably isn't the right place for what I have in mind. My nephew did my last software program, but he doesn't have a lot of time to work on it and I've got too many ideas to wait on him for all of them. I wish he did have time though, he's excellent.
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    • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      No worries, Joe. What you've told me tells me that Odesk probably isn't the right place for what I have in mind. My nephew did my last software program, but he doesn't have a lot of time to work on it and I've got too many ideas to wait on him for all of them. I wish he did have time though, he's excellent.
      If its the one you and i discussed last year. Ill do it for you ... for free in my spare time
      more as a distraction for myself then as a favor for you. ( feel free to consider it a favor
      if you wish )
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

        If its the one you and i discussed last year. Ill do it for you ... for free in my spare time
        more as a distraction for myself then as a favor for you. ( feel free to consider it a favor
        if you wish )
        Very kind of you, Ken. I'll send you a PM.
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        • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Very kind of you, Ken. I'll send you a PM.
          ... skype is faster ...
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          • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
            Banned
            Greetings. I am still working on this project and after posting it on both sites, it looks like I'll be going with oDesk. While they do not have escrow, many of their top people work under a 'money back guarantee' from oDesk, itself. The contractor does not reimburse you - oDesk does.

            Additionally, while I requested that I only be contacted by contractors in the Philippines, none did so. I received over 50 contacts from India and some of them had credentials, work history and rates that were quite impressive, as well as offering their own ideas on how I could improve the application I need built, from top to bottom.

            It looks like I'll be picking one with a rate of $22 an hour which is around the middle of the pack. Additionally, I'm going with a 'set price' arrangement so there are no surprises. I hate surprises.

            I'll admit that what I first perceived as 'aggressive' behavior was actually nothing more, generally, than individuals attempting to show that they were ready to roll up their sleeves and get to work as well as a by product of English not being their primary language.

            Granted, the work has not, yet started, but so far the hiring process has not been unpleasant.

            Only time will tell how this plays out, but my initial impressions leave me quite optimistic and I certainly have learned a tremendous amount on a subject that I knew absolutely nothing about. That can only be a plus, moving forward.

            Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    What you're missing is that price is the only way that offshore providers compete. They aren't particularly better programmers. They're just cheap. Dirt cheap. US programmers cannot live off of the wages that they live off of. When you work with them, they will most likely be asleep when you are awake, so allow 24 hrs response time to questions and instructions.

    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

    Hi Dennis,

    I clearly understand that. Is that the main reason that they do not bother offering their services, there?

    Cheers. - Frank

    Yes. I was a provider there for 6 years or so and just got tired of offshore firms lowballing every proposal, claiming that they are US firms, etc. It gets old real fast.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      What you're missing is that price is the only way that offshore providers compete. They aren't particularly better programmers. They're just cheap. Dirt cheap. US programmers cannot live off of the wages that they live off of. When you work with them, they will most likely be asleep when you are awake, so allow 24 hrs response time to questions and instructions.
      Greetings Suzanne. So nice to see you and I greatly appreciate your knowledgeable input. I hear what you are saying - loud and clear and will not discount that, at all.

      Yes. I was a provider there for 6 years or so and just got tired of offshore firms lowballing every proposal, claiming that they are US firms, etc. It gets old real fast.
      It's not hard to figure out where they are NOT from when they respond in 6th grade English. lol I have run across that a few times.

      What type of services were you providing??? I'd love to know. maybe I could hire you.

      Cheers - and thanks for sticking your head in. - Frank
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      What you're missing is that price is the only way that offshore providers compete. They aren't particularly better programmers. They're just cheap. Dirt cheap. US programmers cannot live off of the wages that they live off of. When you work with them, they will most likely be asleep when you are awake, so allow 24 hrs response time to questions and instructions.




      Yes. I was a provider there for 6 years or so and just got tired of offshore firms lowballing every proposal, claiming that they are US firms, etc. It gets old real fast.
      I tried those sites as a "provider" (writing) and found the same problem Got underbid every time. Seems the people hiring were more interested in cheap labor than quality product. I actually looked up a few of the sites and saw what these people were getting for their 3 bucks per article. LOL. I'm pretty sure that a few of them felt the "google slap" pretty harshly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
    I just received answers from Odesk to the two questions I asked them.

    #1. Regarding Escrow, not yet. They're still in the process of merging with Elance and haven't made a decision on it yet. They said they'd forward my concern to management.

    #2. Regarding buyout of an Odesk contractor:

    "I understand that you would like to know more about our buy-out fee. I know the importance of obtaining resolution regarding your inquiry and I'm glad to assist you today.

    In regards to this, you would need to provide an estimate of the anticipated amount you plan to pay your freelancer during a 52-week period. We will then calculate the buy-out fee based on the greater number of the following three factors:

    1. Fifteen percent of the client's estimate
    2. The average weekly oDesk fee multiplied by 52 weeks, based upon the work your client performed for you over the four weeks immediately preceding the buy-out notice
    3. $500"


    HTH
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Above and beyond the call of duty, Joe. Thank you, sir.

    And it confirmed what I originally drew from your reply, it's not for me, not in this instance anyway. Maybe for a one-time project.
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  • Profile picture of the author SFGary
    I am worried about this "anti-India programmer" replies in this thread. There is huge resource there and with all large resources the experience level is widely variant from newbie programmers out of college or technical schools to teams with deep experience and a lot of them tend to oversell themselves. For a non-technical person/entrepreneur to hire an offshore programmer or for that matter a Stateside programmer is fraught with peril. How do you qualify the applicant? Do you know how to spec the requirement and and check the work-in-progress? How do you verify the finished product? elance and odesk have been around for a long time and hundreds of thousands of jobs have been completed successfully.

    Good programmers in India are not cheap anymore but still cheaper than the U.S. and the cream of the crop work in large companies like TCS, Cognizant and others that do multi-hundred million dollar contracts for US businesses.

    After having been beat over the head as a non-technical person, I now hire only people I know or networked and I don't pay hourly. I ask for fixed price contracts with a tight time delivery and may choose to pay based on partial deliveries. Its also simple to ask to see what work they have done before. In the case of e-commerce sites check out their previous work. Ask for references.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    The India guys never fail to blast job offers. Good luck with that.

    I find it hard to believe you couldn't find a PHP dev. in the US for $22 an hour. Surely there's a local college with plenty of people looking for dev. jobs. The OP did say the job wasn't complicated.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      The India guys never fail to blast job offers. Good luck with that.
      You never know about these things until you try. I'm not prepared to discount an entire country's work force based on any particular piece of information. While people here have recommended hiring someone in the Philippines others have contacted me with a host of reasons why I should not, such as they only work when they feel like it, they have poor infrastructure and oftentimes a simple storm keeps them offline for long periods, family needs, including extended family come before anything and lots of other reasons.

      It's like anything else in life, there are pros and cons to everything and everyone has their own bias in what they choose to relate to you. Ultimately, you have to do your own due diligence, protect yourself as best you can, rely on the safeguards of the provider's platform and make sure that there are ways to assure that your needs are being met in a series of steps that will allow you to smell trouble at the first hint of it.

      That's all you can do.

      I find it hard to believe you couldn't find a PHP dev. in the US for $22 an hour.
      Really? Look around. You'll be surprised. Most want twice that amount. Additionally, if I want bloviating, arrogance, an over inflated sense of self-worth and things simply done my way, regardless of what my client wants - I'd just simply peer into a mirror. There's no one better at that than myself. :-)

      Surely there's a local college with plenty of people looking for dev. jobs. The OP did say the job wasn't complicated.
      I said the job was not over complicated as that was what the client told me. (What would you expect the person writing the check to say?) Upon looking at the scope of the project, it appears to be extremely complicated and I don't feel it's something that I would ever be willing to turn over to a college student. There is a hefty sum of money involved in this and I need to deliver a first-class product at a fair price and be assured that there is a nice chunk o' change left to make it worth my while. I have reached the point in my life where I'd rather pass on a job than make a little money for a lot of work, responsibility and worry over the outcome. Those days are long over.

      Besides, I have no clue on just how difficult something is from a programming point of view. Flying totally blind, here. While I love to keep money stateside and help any college kid, this goes way beyond the scope of building a WP site and quite honestly, I haven't even found reliable people to outsource those jobs to and since I don't want to do those myself, especially during the summer months, I no longer sell them.

      All I can do, here, is hope for the best after doing everything I can yo assure a satisfactory outcome. There are no guarantees in life.

      Your input, though is sincerely appreciated.

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    No offense but If your not familiar with programming your an easy target on freelance sites.

    My advice is look around sites like stackoverflow.com for people with good reputations. Look for the guys that have a history of providing the code answers.

    I do a bit of VB.net coding & one of the stackoverflow guys helped me out for free, of course it was only a few lines of sample code but the guy was very good at what he does. There's plenty of other guys on there for things like PHP.

    I guess what I'm saying is the freelance sites tend to be people looking for easy money while the code/answer sites tend to be extremely helpful.

    Also, maybe get an estimate for the entire job instead of hourly.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      No offense but If your not familiar with programming your an easy target on freelance sites.
      Hi. No offense taken. Your input is appreciated because I am quite aware of my vulnerability. I am trying not to appear too clueless to them, but I'm certain it's not hard to spot a newbie. lol
      My advice is look around sites like stackoverflow.com for people with good reputations. Look for the guys that have a history of providing the code answers.
      I'll do that. My final meeting to go over everything with the client before submitting my proposal is this afternoon. Once I get everything finalized I will have a coherent plan that I can submit for final bids.
      I do a bit of VB.net coding & one of the stackoverflow guys helped me out for free, of course it was only a few lines of sample code but the guy was very good at what he does. There's plenty of other guys on there for things like PHP.
      Thanks for the resource.
      I guess what I'm saying is the freelance sites tend to be people looking for easy money while the code/answer sites tend to be extremely helpful.
      OK.
      Also, maybe get an estimate for the entire job instead of hourly.
      Yes - that is the only way I will contract to have the work done. No mystery and no surprises.

      Thanks. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
    Your kind of lucky that your dealing with PHP, you can have the coder put a working demo on their own domain for you to test before spending any money.
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    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
      Banned
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Your kind of lucky that your dealing with PHP, you can have the coder put a working demo on their own domain for you to test before spending any money.
      Well, if only to illustrate how clueless I am in this area, I'm assuming it's a project that would be done in PHP. They may recommend that it be built in another language, entirely. :-)

      Yes, I did think that if it was done in PHP that I would be able to get a full run through, though I don't know if anyone would even start such a project without some advanced payment. I know that I would never do that. Hell, these days I generally get payment in full before starting a job. Any job. lol

      Cheers. - Frank
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

    Additionally, the US people were asking 2x to 3x the hourly rate as all the others. So my question is, what's up with that?
    YEAH, I KNOW! I was offering work at a price closer to that(Not NEAR it, but CLOSER), and someone questioned the price and all. I ended up doubling the price. HEY, I'm happier, and they are happy also, so it is a win/win. I guess nobody questions india, because they figure that the average middle class guy gets $8000/year(a price several indians agreed on a few years ago, when they told me), which is ALMOST $4/hour on average! In the US, that would mean maybe about $9/hour base pay, so they figure around $9/hour is expected. They figure EVERYONE in india is a computer expert! That is FAR from true, but they believe it.

    MEANWHILE, in the US, the same level class person would make about $40K/year. or over $19/hour. That would mean maybe a $38/hour base pay. They KNOW not everyone in the US is an expert, so over $38/hour is reasonable.

    You want to blame someone? Blame the high population, and low living standard of many indians for lowering the rate, or the inflation and 1st world living standards of people in the US for raising it.

    I have no personal aversion to hiring someone in India or Croatia, but I prefer to keep my money stateside wherever possible. And why no US people offering their services, there? What, exactly, am I missing?
    SO many think the $38 is too high SIMPLY because they see so many $9 or lower prices. Those offering the higher prices may tend to stay away simply because it isn't worth their time. The same is true for lowering the price.

    Steve
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