I have only one question. WHY?

15 years ago

That sounds a little odd for a church setting. I know that the 2 churches I go to would certainly frown on people bringing guns to a church.

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Absinthe

15 years ago

Were we not so 'obsessed' a few hundred years ago, we'd have been enjoying afternoon tea long after 1776.

Guns enable revolution. Disarmament breeds tyranny. I can't speak for the pastor, but I'd prefer that a populace keep its options open.

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Ron Kerr

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Absinthe

Were we not so 'obsessed' a few hundred years ago, we'd have been enjoying afternoon tea long after 1776.

Guns enable revolution. Disarmament breeds tyranny. I can't speak for the pastor, but I'd prefer that a populace keep its options open.

In case you hadn't noticed, it is way past 1776 and handguns and rifles would be useless against any country that could militarily challenge the USA (if there is such a country).

How does 1776 justify carrying guns in church?

Some people have watched too many historically inaccurate westerns.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

In case you hadn't noticed, it is way past 1776 and handguns and rifles would be useless against any country that could militarily challenge the USA (if there is such a country).

How does 1776 justify carrying guns in church?

Some people have watched too many historically inaccurate westerns.

Really? So all the street level fighting in the urban areas of Iraq and Afghanistan haven't really been a challenge to even the might of the US military over the past several years?

So all the machine guns in private hands in Switzerland wasn't a monkeywrench in Hitler's expansionist plans after all?

If you were a Jew in a Polish ghetto, you'd probably feel differently about having given up your guns.

Doesn't much matter what the rest of the world thinks though. We have this pre-existing right to the pursuit of happiness, and an affirmative right to self defense. These rights are not GRANTED by the government. These rights pre-exist, and are only enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

These are concepts that are alien to most of the rest of the world, particularly those with great histories of being "subjects".

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Ron Kerr

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Really? So all the street level fighting in the urban areas of Iraq and Afghanistan haven't really been a challenge to even the might of the US military over the past several years?

So all the machine guns in private hands in Switzerland wasn't a monkeywrench in Hitler's expansionist plans after all?

If you were a Jew in a Polish ghetto, you'd probably feel differently about having given up your guns.

Doesn't much matter what the rest of the world thinks though. We have this pre-existing right to the pursuit of happiness, and an affirmative right to self defense. These rights are not GRANTED by the government. These rights pre-exist, and are only enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

These are concepts that are alien to most of the rest of the world, particularly those with great histories of being "subjects".

I am nobody's subject, have never had a gun to give up and far too tough to hide behind a gun.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

I am nobody's subject, .

...yet.

and if that time comes that someone is eyeing you and yours to be subjects, you'll have nothing to say about it, but yes sir.

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Ron Kerr

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

What a MORONIC thing to say!!!!!!!!! HOW do police take care of criminals? HOW do snipers kill combatants? HOW do planes take down other planes? WHAT is the US using in IRAQ now? HOW do you stop an armed burglar? WHAT are all israeli men and swiss men from 18-21 supposed to have? WHAT item has been in EVERY war, and nearly every skirmish with little real change for the past 400 or so years? What has allowed Switzerland to remain neutral all this time, though they have a LOT that is worth stealing? WHAT did the nazis FIRST try to take away to allow them to take over? What is shown in nearly every scifi flick, some being oer a thousand years into the future? Equivalent items are in perhaps EVERY star trek episode? What did those bank robbers in hollywood have that SCARED the police!?!? TWO robbers that injured 10 cops, and 7 others before they were stopped! COME ON! YOU KNOW THIS!!!!!! WHAT!?!?!?!?!? OH COME ON! ADMIT IT!

Want a hint? North Hollywood shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMAGINE if the US had NO guns! Foreign governments would just walk in, and take everything over! Outside of improvised weapons, and explosives, they are the ONLY thing that could stop it! FORGET nuclear bombs! NO GOOD! FORGET tanks!(no guns, and the best you can do is run over the opponent!), FORGET planes! You can't use bombs, and guns are out of the question! What do you plan on doing? Poison the celebratory wine? What if you are caught? Without a gun, you're a dead duck!

BTW one woman once lost her family because she decided to obey a new law that forbid her from carrying her gun. IF she had her gun, she could have stopped a burglary and SAVED LIVES! Felons do NOT obey the law! That is a GIVEN! Don't believe me? Felonies are ILLEGAL! ALL Felons are accused of, and judged to have, committed felonies! SO, by definition, I am RIGHT!

How can ANYONE say such a stupid thing as "handguns and rifles would be useless against any country that could militarily challenge the USA"!?!?!? MY GOD! What planet are you from?

Steve

BTW Jesus DID say "Take up your sword and follow me!"! REALLY! It is in the Bible!

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

...yet.

and if that time comes that someone is eyeing you and yours to be subjects, you'll have nothing to say about it, but yes sir.

How can you say that? What do you know about Australia?

Our armed forces are in Iraq, Afghanistan, East Timor and elsewhere and are well respected.

Having guns in church, in our back pockets or anywhere else has nothing whatsoever to do with protecting ourselves from invasion. That is why we have our armed forces.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

How can you say that? What do you know about Australia?

Our armed forces are in Iraq, Afghanistan, East Timor and elsewhere and are well respected.

Having guns in church, in our back pockets or anywhere else has nothing whatsoever to do with protecting ourselves from invasion. That is why we have our armed forces.

the second amendment in this country isn't directed towards invasion of foreign forces.

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Kay King

15 years ago

well let's see. 2 weeks ago, a doctor that handles late term abortions was killed (now pay attention this part) in the name of god....in a church.

Are you saying that when that person walked in the pastor or a member of the church - or an usher - could have stopped him? You don't know that at all. There's no proof even the victim would have had a chance to pull a gun for defense had he been carrying one. If we've come to the time where people think carrying a gun to church service is necessary to keep them safe, we've walked over the cliff in this country.

kay

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Are you saying that when that person walked in the pastor or a member of the church - or an usher - could have stopped him? You don't know that at all. There's no proof even the victim would have had a chance to pull a gun for defense had he been carrying one. If we've come to the time where people think carrying a gun to church service is necessary to keep them safe, we've walked over the cliff in this country.

kay

No, he asked why would we carry guns to church.

*This just in*...guns kill in church too.

And how do you know that an usher or someone else couldnt have? What if this guy didnt just want to kill the doctor, maybe he wanted to kill as many as he could. Who would you rather be: the person hiding under the pew using a bible for cover, or the person taking up a defensive position behind the pew and returning fire?

Myself, while i'm sure everyone thinks god will save them, until he actually shows up, i'll depend on mr smith and wesson to do the job.

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GarrieWilson

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

Having guns in church, in our back pockets or anywhere else has nothing whatsoever to do with protecting ourselves from invasion. That is why we have our armed forces.

The US Constitution grants guns as a right to protect ourselfs against foreign AND domestic. Even the people in Washington.

Armed citizens help keep the government in check.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

I am nobody's subject, have never had a gun to give up and far too tough to hide behind a gun.

lol... far too tough to hide behind a gun? Last time I checked, it was sort of stupid to show up at a gunfight with bare fists. Maybe the standards are different in Australia. Valient bravery leads to honorable death or something silly like that?

So... I suppose that if you had been there when the whacko that started shooting the tourists (you know, the incident that spawned the entire country to willingly give up their sidearms), you would have bum rushed the guy and thrashed him soundly, right toughguy?

You are your nation's subject now, because if a rogue administration decided to go haywire, you'd be powerless to do anything about it.

Don't think that could happen? You must have been one of the kids who slept through history class.

If that's a gamble that you're willing to take, you should do a little travel north to Cambodia and talk to some Khmer Rouge survivors.

We only need to look at your distant cousins in the UK to see what happens when a nation disarms itself. The people who are law abiding are helpless sheep, waiting for slaughter -- because the already law disregarding criminals will still have guns.

No thanks.

BTW... you must have missed several of the news stories in the past couple of years where people who have concealed carry permits were able to stop a crackpot from killing a lot of people after they opened fire in a church service.

You must have also missed the news stories in the past where a shooter in Salt Lake City mall was taken down by a concealed firearm carrying citizen.

You must have also missed the news stories where a shooter at a West Virginian law school was taken down by another student that also had a concealed carry sidearm.

The fact of the matter is, the NRA reports statistics that 2,000,000 times per year on average in the US, a violent crime is deterred because of the lawful use of a firearm by a law abiding citizen.

Of course, the media doesn't report that. It's not in the liberal political interest to do so.

Originally Posted by Kay King

Are you saying that when that person walked in the pastor or a member of the church - or an usher - could have stopped him? You don't know that at all. There's no proof even the victim would have had a chance to pull a gun for defense had he been carrying one. If we've come to the time where people think carrying a gun to church service is necessary to keep them safe, we've walked over the cliff in this country.

kay

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/09/church.shooting/

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Ron Kerr

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

lol... far too tough to hide behind a gun? Last time I checked, it was sort of stupid to show up at a gunfight with bare fists. Maybe the standards are different in Australia. Valient bravery leads to honorable death or something silly like that?

So... I suppose that if you had been there when the whacko that started shooting the tourists (you know, the incident that spawned the entire country to willingly give up their sidearms), you would have bum rushed the guy and thrashed him soundly, right toughguy?

You are your nation's subject now, because if a rogue administration decided to go haywire, you'd be powerless to do anything about it.

Don't think that could happen? You must have been one of the kids who slept through history class.

If that's a gamble that you're willing to take, you should do a little travel north to Cambodia and talk to some Khmer Rouge survivors.

We only need to look at your distant cousins in the UK to see what happens when a nation disarms itself. The people who are law abiding are helpless sheep, waiting for slaughter -- because the already law disregarding criminals will still have guns.

No thanks.

BTW... you must have missed several of the news stories in the past couple of years where people who have concealed carry permits were able to stop a crackpot from killing a lot of people after they opened fire in a church service.

You must have also missed the news stories in the past where a shooter in Salt Lake City mall was taken down by a concealed firearm carrying citizen.

You must have also missed the news stories where a shooter at a West Virginian law school was taken down by another student that also had a concealed carry sidearm.

The fact of the matter is, the NRA reports statistics that 2,000,000 times per year on average in the US, a violent crime is deterred because of the lawful use of a firearm by a law abiding citizen.

Of course, the media doesn't report that. It's not in the liberal political interest to do so.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/09/church.shooting/

Let me see, I was "one of the kids who slept through history class"? Another intelligent argument.

By the way, what does "Valient" mean?

If I were to be reduced to pettiness, I might suggest that you slept through English class. But I am far too classy to be reduced to pettiness.

Why is it that the gun proponents above have arguments that are all over the place, grabbing at unrelated bits and pieces and generally lack logic?

I have had enough fun here; it is late and I am off to bed. And I won't dream about being made the subject of anyone gun toting group.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

Let me see, I was "one of the kids who slept through history class"? Another intelligent argument.

By the way, what does "Valient" mean?

If I were to be reduced to pettiness, I might suggest that you slept through English class. But I am far too classy to be reduced to pettiness.

Why is it that the gun proponents above have arguments that are all over the place, grabbing at unrelated bits and pieces and generally lack logic?

I have had enough fun here; it is late and I am off to bed. And I won't dream about being made the subject of anyone gun toting group.

Typical anti-gunner discussion (been there done that with many).

Hit them with hard, rational thought processes, and they tuck tail and run away with some huffy spout of "I'm too good for you this and that" nonsense.

Why?

Because their position is rooted solely in emotion. Not fact or statistic.

It's indefensible.

So they resort to ad hominim sleights like typos.

The funniest part is he's the one accusing me of lacking in logic.

Let's see... documented statistics, documented history, documented news stories... vs...
"Guns are scary waaaahhhhhhh...."

G'night.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Jorge did you watch the video I posted a link to earlier in this thread?

I never understood why people consider chains a viable weapon.

Tommy when I rode in the MC club in my younger days my weapon of choice was a Indian primary chain I made into a belt with a one pound solid steel buckle. Think of a bicycle chain 4 rows wide about 34 inches long. Broke many a bone with that sucker.

Guns are bad

No people are bad
Read this and notice where firearm deaths are.
Death Statistics Tables

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Thomas

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Tommy when I rode in the MC club in my younger days my weapon of choice was a Indian primary chain I made into a belt with a one pound solid steel buckle. Think of a bicycle chain 4 rows wide about 34 inches long. Broke many a bone with that sucker.

I always preferred the 4 boney protrusions at the ends of my two hands but.. damn... I guess I don't know what I've been missing!

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ThomM 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

I always preferred the 4 boney protrusions at the ends of my two hands but.. damn... I guess I don't know what I've been missing!

Tommy first you need to know that back then I was 6'2" and weighted 140 lbs., they didn't call me Stick for nothing
Plus the weight of the belt was always pulling my pants down, it made for more comic moments then violent ones I can tell you:rolleyes:
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Trader54

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

Why is it that the gun proponents above have arguments that are all over the place, grabbing at unrelated bits and pieces and generally lack logic?

Your the one all over the place, first it was whats the obsession with guns, then to just guns in church, now back to guns in general.

Seeing your from Australia you sound like most of my fellow Canadians. You have lost site of what bought you your current freedom. Yeah your troops like ours are over doing their peace keeping thing over in the Middle East so what would happen if your country or mine was attacked, you don't have a army big enough to defend yourself. You would have to call on that world bad guy the USA to come to your rescue. Probably one of the last countries that have any sense of true freedom. Though the latest turns there seems even there it is eroding.

Then who in the world do you call?

Its only countries with freedom that will come to your rescue.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Trader54

Your the one all over the place, first it was whats the obsession with guns, then to just guns in church, now back to guns in general.

Seeing your from Australia you sound like most of my fellow Canadians. You have lost site of what bought you your current freedom. Yeah your troops like ours are over doing their peace keeping thing over in the Middle East so what would happen if your country or mine was attacked, you don't have a army big enough to defend yourself. You would have to call on that world bad guy the USA to come to your rescue. Probably one of the last countries that have any sense of true freedom. Though the latest turns there seems even there it is eroding.

Then who in the world do you call?

Its only countries with freedom that will come to your rescue.

There was actually a day and time when civilian marksmanship was considered to be a national security issue. The military ran a very successful program called the Civilian Marksmanship Program, and held annual competitions in places like Camp Perry, Ohio. The CMP was credited to have been a significant factor in infantry readiness in WWII.

Of course, certain political forces have sought to erode the US's strength and readiness over time.

I wonder how well Australia will fare when their Sino neigbors up north start eyeballing the Rio Tinto mining operations west of our good friend?

Maybe a lot of people don't believe that government administrations can turn rogue or that nations can be invaded in 2009. I dunno.

I didn't think Allen allowed political conversations on here.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

There was actually a day and time when civilian marksmanship was considered to be a national security issue. The military ran a very successful program called the Civilian Marksmanship Program, and held annual competitions in places like Camp Perry, Ohio. The CMP was credited to have been a significant factor in infantry readiness in WWII.

Of course, certain political forces have sought to erode the US's strength and readiness over time.

I wonder how well Australia will fare when their Sino neigbors up north start eyeballing the Rio Tinto mining operations west of our good friend?

Maybe a lot of people don't believe that government administrations can turn rogue or that nations can be invaded in 2009. I dunno.

I didn't think Allen allowed political conversations on here.

He said he doesn't. He may even be watching this. HOPEFULLY, this will end with people just letting it be. If it were MY board, I wouldn't be worried about one thread.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Trader54

Your the one all over the place, first it was whats the obsession with guns, then to just guns in church, now back to guns in general.

Seeing your from Australia you sound like most of my fellow Canadians. You have lost site of what bought you your current freedom. Yeah your troops like ours are over doing their peace keeping thing over in the Middle East so what would happen if your country or mine was attacked, you don't have a army big enough to defend yourself. You would have to call on that world bad guy the USA to come to your rescue. Probably one of the last countries that have any sense of true freedom. Though the latest turns there seems even there it is eroding.

Then who in the world do you call?

Its only countries with freedom that will come to your rescue.

GOOD POINTS! That is another thing! If australians REALLY feel that way about guns, why have them AT ALL!? Why have a military AT ALL!? I mean it IS secluded, keeps to its own, etc....

BTW DON'T give me any garbage about how Australians need to protect themselves against animals. The fiercest and most deadly animal is an odd sort of ape belonging to the great ape family. It's common name? HUMAN! So, you see, any argument saying that you need to protect yourself against animals would have to include humans.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

Let me see, I was "one of the kids who slept through history class"? Another intelligent argument.

By the way, what does "Valient" mean?

If I were to be reduced to pettiness, I might suggest that you slept through English class. But I am far too classy to be reduced to pettiness.

Why is it that the gun proponents above have arguments that are all over the place, grabbing at unrelated bits and pieces and generally lack logic?

I have had enough fun here; it is late and I am off to bed. And I won't dream about being made the subject of anyone gun toting group.

It is guys like you that make me wish I could go to another planet, and just watch your foibles! Oh well, HOPEFULLY you are far younger than I am and can acheive YOUR goals after I am gone. I would LOVE you to see what would then happen! I would love to see it how you might then realize you were DEAD WRONG!

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Kay King 15 years ago

Guns enable revolution.

MINDS enable revolution. People who truly want change will fight with anything at hand.

Guns are one of those many issues where people will come up with reasons (or is that excuses) why "xxxx is necessary" - whether the reasons make any sense or not. It's not a topic where reasoned debate occurs - somehow these cold pieces of metal bring on highly emotional responses.

kay
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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

In case you hadn't noticed, it is way past 1776 and handguns and rifles would be useless against any country that could militarily challenge the USA (if there is such a country).

How does 1776 justify carrying guns in church?

Some people have watched too many historically inaccurate westerns.

What a MORONIC thing to say!!!!!!!!! HOW do police take care of criminals? HOW do snipers kill combatants? HOW do planes take down other planes? WHAT is the US using in IRAQ now? HOW do you stop an armed burglar? WHAT are all israeli men and swiss men from 18-21 supposed to have? WHAT item has been in EVERY war, and nearly every skirmish with little real change for the past 400 or so years? What has allowed Switzerland to remain neutral all this time, though they have a LOT that is worth stealing? WHAT did the nazis FIRST try to take away to allow them to take over? What is shown in nearly every scifi flick, some being oer a thousand years into the future? Equivalent items are in perhaps EVERY star trek episode? What did those bank robbers in hollywood have that SCARED the police!?!? TWO robbers that injured 10 cops, and 7 others before they were stopped! COME ON! YOU KNOW THIS!!!!!! WHAT!?!?!?!?!? OH COME ON! ADMIT IT!

Want a hint? North Hollywood shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMAGINE if the US had NO guns! Foreign governments would just walk in, and take everything over! Outside of improvised weapons, and explosives, they are the ONLY thing that could stop it! FORGET nuclear bombs! NO GOOD! FORGET tanks!(no guns, and the best you can do is run over the opponent!), FORGET planes! You can't use bombs, and guns are out of the question! What do you plan on doing? Poison the celebratory wine? What if you are caught? Without a gun, you're a dead duck!

BTW one woman once lost her family because she decided to obey a new law that forbid her from carrying her gun. IF she had her gun, she could have stopped a burglary and SAVED LIVES! Felons do NOT obey the law! That is a GIVEN! Don't believe me? Felonies are ILLEGAL! ALL Felons are accused of, and judged to have, committed felonies! SO, by definition, I am RIGHT!

How can ANYONE say such a stupid thing as "handguns and rifles would be useless against any country that could militarily challenge the USA"!?!?!? MY GOD! What planet are you from?

Steve

BTW Jesus DID say "Take up your sword and follow me!"! REALLY! It is in the Bible!

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Kay King

15 years ago

HOW do planes take down other planes?

With a handgun? Going a bit over the top here?

Steve - I often respect your opinion. But this issue is ridiculous to even discuss. Gun opponents and proponents become ridiculous in their arguments.

Calling someone stupid or moronic isn't acceptable - not everyone has a love affair with guns or thinks everyone should own them.

IF she had her gun, she could have stopped a burglary and SAVED LIVES!

Maybe, maybe not - if's are proof of nothing and you should know that.

kay

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

With a handgun? Going a bit over the top here?

Steve - I often respect your opinion. But this issue is ridiculous to even discuss. Gun opponents and proponents become ridiculous in their arguments.

Calling someone stupid or moronic isn't acceptable - not everyone has a love affair with guns or thinks everyone should own them.

Maybe, maybe not - if's are proof of nothing and you should know that.

kay

SAME principle as a rifle, in fact, they WERE originally rifles. Still, same concept! A projectile down a chamber propelled by some expansive force.

Actually, my arguments were valid! HEY, IF you could go back in time and keep them from being invented, that is ONE thing. And I called the IDEA moronic. I don't have a love affair with guns. I just want everything the bad guys have. If THEY have them, I want them! I bought my first gun because they wanted to OUTLAW them! It cost 3 times what it did, and should have, and it is now illegal to sell, but I have it.

Steve

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Wakunahum

15 years ago

To be fair there are over 300 million of us.

Most of the 300 million of us haven't bought a gun and brought it to church or any other public building.

When you get 300 million people, someone somewhere is bound to act a little weird with just about any object/possession at some point in time.

To lump us all together with as diverse as we are is kind of silly. You can easily see how divisive we are as we disagree with each other about everything.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Wakunahum

To be fair there are over 300 million of us.

Most of the 300 million of us haven't bought a gun and brought it to church or any other public building.

When you get 300 million people, someone somewhere is bound to act a little weird with just about any object/possession at some point in time.

To lump us all together with as diverse as we are is kind of silly. You can easily see how divisive we are as we disagree with each other about everything.

You're right there! In fact, MOST that own guns own them because others do. And MOST, on EITHER side, rarely take them out of the home. In fact, it is a felony("felony misdemeanor" for law abiding citizens) , at least in LA county,to carry a gun that has readily available ammo, without a concealed weapons permit, or similar! If I go to a target range, and have the gun in my cab, the bullets had better be NOT be!

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forex trading advice 15 years ago

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Ron Kerr

15 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

What a MORONIC thing to say!!!!!!!!! HOW do police take care of criminals? HOW do snipers kill combatants? HOW do planes take down other planes? WHAT is the US using in IRAQ now? HOW do you stop an armed burglar? WHAT are all israeli men and swiss men from 18-21 supposed to have? WHAT item has been in EVERY war, and nearly every skirmish with little real change for the past 400 or so years? What has allowed Switzerland to remain neutral all this time, though they have a LOT that is worth stealing? WHAT did the nazis FIRST try to take away to allow them to take over? What is shown in nearly every scifi flick, some being oer a thousand years into the future? Equivalent items are in perhaps EVERY star trek episode? What did those bank robbers in hollywood have that SCARED the police!?!? TWO robbers that injured 10 cops, and 7 others before they were stopped! COME ON! YOU KNOW THIS!!!!!! WHAT!?!?!?!?!? OH COME ON! ADMIT IT!

Want a hint? North Hollywood shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMAGINE if the US had NO guns! Foreign governments would just walk in, and take everything over! Outside of improvised weapons, and explosives, they are the ONLY thing that could stop it! FORGET nuclear bombs! NO GOOD! FORGET tanks!(no guns, and the best you can do is run over the opponent!), FORGET planes! You can't use bombs, and guns are out of the question! What do you plan on doing? Poison the celebratory wine? What if you are caught? Without a gun, you're a dead duck!

BTW one woman once lost her family because she decided to obey a new law that forbid her from carrying her gun. IF she had her gun, she could have stopped a burglary and SAVED LIVES! Felons do NOT obey the law! That is a GIVEN! Don't believe me? Felonies are ILLEGAL! ALL Felons are accused of, and judged to have, committed felonies! SO, by definition, I am RIGHT!

How can ANYONE say such a stupid thing as "handguns and rifles would be useless against any country that could militarily challenge the USA"!?!?!? MY GOD! What planet are you from?

Steve

BTW Jesus DID say "Take up your sword and follow me!"! REALLY! It is in the Bible!

As soon as someone uses such intelligent arguments as "moronic", "stupid" and the best of all "SO, by definition, I am RIGHT!" I know that my argument is superior.

Funny thing is, I never said that you should not have guns. I simply wondered about a society that would produce such idiocy as guns in church.

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Trader54 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

Funny thing is, I never said that you should not have guns. I simply wondered about a society that would produce such idiocy as guns in church.

What makes you think it is any safer in church without a gun?

Churches have been robbed, torched, and people have even been shot in church.

The people there are the same people you will meet once you step outside.
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Michael Motley 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

Funny thing is, I never said that you should not have guns. I simply wondered about a society that would produce such idiocy as guns in church.

well let's see. 2 weeks ago, a doctor that handles late term abortions was killed (now pay attention this part) in the name of god....in a church.
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- seasoned 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Michael Motley
  
  well let's see. 2 weeks ago, a doctor that handles late term abortions was killed (now pay attention this part) in the name of god....in a church.
  
  Well, a person that kills like that is a felon, and HE has a gun! His victim DIDN'T have a gun. Where is that victim NOW!?
  
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Tina Golden

15 years ago

[DELETED]

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Actually, no, I don't believe he did. I have just searched for it in several Bible databases. Christ preached peace throughout the New Testament including turn the other cheek.

I'm not getting into the middle of the gun/anti-gun argument but if you are going to quote someone or something to back up your argument, then you should be able to quote it exactly and give the citation to back it up.

And the "moronic" comment was unnecessary and just plain rude to someone who happens to disagree with you.

Tina G

Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Actually, no, I don't believe he did. I have just searched for it in several Bible databases. Christ preached peace throughout the New Testament including turn the other cheek.

I'm not getting into the middle of the gun/anti-gun argument but if you are going to quote someone or something to back up your argument, then you should be able to quote it exactly and give the citation to back it up.

And the "moronic" comment was unnecessary and just plain rude to someone who happens to disagree with you.

Tina G

I'm not preaching gun violence! LIKEWISE, Jesus didn't preach violence with the sword EITHER! In fact, I believe THAT was the sword used to cut the centurians ear off, and Jesus told them to stop, and healed the ear. Anyway, I know I saw that earlier. Still, posession of something doesn't mean you will EVER use it! I had guns given to me that I had access to for YEARS! I only did target practice. I bought a gun about 15 years ago, and only used it for target practice. Are you one of the ones that thinks the US used more than 2 nuclear bombs, outside of tests?

Steve

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

As soon as someone uses such intelligent arguments as "moronic", "stupid" and the best of all "SO, by definition, I am RIGHT!" I know that my argument is superior.

Funny thing is, I never said that you should not have guns. I simply wondered about a society that would produce such idiocy as guns in church.

Maybe you should save such comments for when they actually make sense!

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GarrieWilson

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

As soon as someone uses such intelligent arguments as "moronic", "stupid" and the best of all "SO, by definition, I am RIGHT!" I know that my argument is superior.

Funny thing is, I never said that you should not have guns. I simply wondered about a society that would produce such idiocy as guns in church.

Pot meet kettle.

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Thomas

15 years ago

"Jesus didn't say, 'Go ahead, make my day.' "

Ha ha. That was brilliant.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

I simply do not get the American obsession with guns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/us...ef=global-home

Of course you can't, because you let your guns be taken away.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

I simply do not get the American obsession with guns.

There really isn't one. The vast majority of Americans do not own or carry a firearm, and most of them feel pretty much the same way you do. There are just little isolated pockets of people who are attached to guns in much the same way other pockets of people are attached to specific religions, political parties, or dietary habits. In certain parts of California, everybody carries bottled water everywhere. It's just a cultural thing. There may or may not be good reasons for it, but if you're not part of the culture, it just seems ridiculous.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

There really isn't one. The vast majority of Americans do not own or carry a firearm, and most of them feel pretty much the same way you do. There are just little isolated pockets of people who are attached to guns in much the same way other pockets of people are attached to specific religions, political parties, or dietary habits. In certain parts of California, everybody carries bottled water everywhere. It's just a cultural thing. There may or may not be good reasons for it, but if you're not part of the culture, it just seems ridiculous.

oh comeon darklock... I've shot firearms off the back of a well-known, semi-famous log home builder's deck in Monroe, WA.

It's a stretch to say "most" since an estimated 100 million firearms have been sold since Obama was elected.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

It's a stretch to say "most" since an estimated 100 million firearms have been sold since Obama was elected.

And if every one of them was purchased by a different person - which we know is not the case - that's less than 20% of the U.S. population.

It's also existing gun owners who are (needlessly) afraid gun control is going to be a lot stronger under Obama, and buying a lot of guns.

So I'm betting if you really dug into that, those 100 million firearms have raised the gun ownership percentage in America by roughly, oh, 0%.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

And if every one of them was purchased by a different person - which we know is not the case - that's less than 20% of the U.S. population.

It's also existing gun owners who are (needlessly) afraid gun control is going to be a lot stronger under Obama, and buying a lot of guns.

So I'm betting if you really dug into that, those 100 million firearms have raised the gun ownership percentage in America by roughly, oh, 0%.

Some of that is the case, but there are many, many new gun owners - even Democrats.

I am a partner in a related company. I know what our sales are right now.

ps... 100 million is 1/3 the us population, not less than 20%

But I agree that it's not 1 per person. But it's also not "no new buyers" either. Millions of new owners.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

And if every one of them was purchased by a different person - which we know is not the case - that's less than 20% of the U.S. population.

It's also existing gun owners who are (needlessly) afraid gun control is going to be a lot stronger under Obama, and buying a lot of guns.

So I'm betting if you really dug into that, those 100 million firearms have raised the gun ownership percentage in America by roughly, oh, 0%.

Actually, you are wrong. That is NOT less than 20%! That is less than an ADDITIONAL 20%! 20% is a lot, but an ADDITIONAL 20% is downright unreal. *I* for example, have a gun, but am NOT one of the 20% additional.

Steve

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pjCheviot

Banned 15 years ago

Reference Matthew 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

probably because you dont know any better and live in a state of denial....without protection. sleep well future serf.

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Thomas

15 years ago

Geez... how did this suddenly degenerate into people quoting scripture at each other and 'my country is better than your country' arguments?

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seasoned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

Geez... how did this suddenly degenerate into people quoting scripture at each other and 'my country is better than your country' arguments?

It started out as "my country is better than yours", and someone said that jesus was against violence, to indicate he was against guns.
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

The CMP is still active. I think there are only 2 CMP branches now. But if you complete the CMP course, you get access to buying M1 rifles for about 500. Fine weapon.

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KimW

15 years ago

I am 55 and for the first time in my life I am seriously thinking about purchasing a gun.

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Trader54

15 years ago

Being in Canada, I lived in a rural area and grew up having guns for hunting. Then the socialist government of the day decided you would have to register each gun along with a lot of other red tape. I literally gave them away before that day came. Even with registration fees etc. the whole deal still runs the government a deficit to the point the current government has thought of scrapping the whole idea.

That happened over 20 years ago. Violent crime since then has only increased. Not sure what their thought process was thinking by doing this to law abiding citizens would some how deter criminals.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

I've got enough weapons. I have 1 shot gun, one pistol, one rifle...registered. I have others but those are my registered ones. I dont know anyone that doesnt atleast have a pistol. I've been trained in the military to handle weapons, i was raised around weapons, and in truth, im a fan of personal weapons.

The U.S. is good in some ways, bad in others. One of the bad ways is we are way to soft on criminals and we let anyone in the borders that sneaks or asks, so we get a lot of sketchy individuals here. There are not enough cops to take care of anyone, and its not the job of the police to be your personal babysitter.

Anyone that thinks they will never have to defend themselves in this or any other country, lives in a fantasy world. I live in a big city, car jackings, home invasions, robberies and murders are an everyday occurence here.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

I simply do not get the American obsession with guns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/us...ef=global-home

I don't get why other countries care.
The only reason I can think of is if they wanted to invade us, or you all are jealous.
As for guns in church, I'd rather see them there then in a bar full of drunks.
I currently don't own a gun but will again.
My house is full of weapons though, strategically located through out the house so I can grab one if needed where ever I am in the house.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Anyone that thinks they will never have to defend themselves in this or any other country, lives in a fantasy world. I live in a big city, car jackings, home invasions, robberies and murders are an everyday occurence here.

Damn straight Mike.
Two years ago my friend had a home invasion at his apartment. Four Kings entered and found him and another friend who was a 81 there. They had bats, my friends had bigger bats. One friend ended up with busted ribs, the other a busted nose. The Kings where beaten out of the apartment and decided to cut their loses so to speak

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Damn straight Mike.
Two years ago my friend had a home invasion at his apartment. Four Kings entered and found him and another friend who was a 81 there. They had bats, my friends had bigger bats. One friend ended up with busted ribs, the other a busted nose. The Kings where beaten out of the apartment and decided to cut their loses so to speak

There was an older guy down here, like 72 or so that was carjacked a couple years ago. The criminals threw him in the trunk and took off. They pulled over and opened the trunk to put a couple bullets in the owner, and he came up out of the trunk with a couple pistols he had back there and put them both down.

Look out on youtube for the guy that has the watch shop. He's got a shop out in california and local gangs have attempted to rob him like 4 times, each time he's killed atleast 2 of them and they have got nothing.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

There was an older guy down here, like 72 or so that was carjacked a couple years ago. The criminals threw him in the trunk and took off. They pulled over and opened the trunk to put a couple bullets in the owner, and he came up out of the trunk with a couple pistols he had back there and put them both down.

Look out on youtube for the guy that has the watch shop. He's got a shop out in california and local gangs have attempted to rob him like 4 times, each time he's killed atleast 2 of them and they have got nothing.

Lesson here is don't mess with us old folks.
That's why I'll be getting some guns again soon.
I'm getting to old and lazy to swing my bats, machete or cimeter:rolleyes:

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

In honor of this topic, I just came in from the back deck, where I emptied several magazines of .223 through my M-16 with the fire control selector set to "Rock and Roll".

Another great day in America.

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myob

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

In honor of this topic, I just came in from the back deck, where I emptied several magazines of .223 through my M-16 with the fire control selector set to "Rock and Roll".

Another great day in America.

I do that randomly about every other month; never had any more problems in the neighborhood.

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

I carry always. Im at work right now, and while I'm not allowed to have it on my person, it is in my car.

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MichaelHiles 15 years ago

"War, children, it's just a shot away, it's just a shot away" - The Rolling Stones
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slvrsrfr 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

I carry always. Im at work right now, and while I'm not allowed to have it on my person, it is in my car.

that makes me relieved. because cars never get stolen and stuff stolen from them right?
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- seasoned 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by slvrsrfr
  
  that makes me relieved. because cars never get stolen and stuff stolen from them right?
  
  SPECIOUS ARGUMENT ALERT! As I said, POLICE cars have been stolen!
  
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TLTheLiberator

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

I simply do not get the American obsession with guns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/us...ef=global-home

I'm not sure how to answer regarding guns in church but one reason we have our guns is to prevent them same thing that happened in IRAN from ever happening here.

TL

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Trader54

15 years ago

Why are the bleeding heart liberals more obsessed in taking guns from law abiding citizens then going after the criminals?

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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Trader54

Why are the bleeding heart liberals more obsessed in taking guns from law abiding citizens then going after the criminals?

Because they have this fantasy that if we make guns illegal, that those in the population that already dont pay attention to the laws will somehow take notice and heed the new legislation.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Because they have this fantasy that if we make guns illegal, that those in the population that already dont pay attention to the laws will somehow take notice and heed the new legislation.

It's the politician's fallacy. "Something must be done. This is something. Therefore, we must do it."

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Trader54

Why are the bleeding heart liberals more obsessed in taking guns from law abiding citizens then going after the criminals?

Because they slept through history class too?

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Ken Strong

15 years ago

Why are the bleeding heart liberals more obsessed in taking guns from law abiding citizens then going after the criminals?

Because they slept through history class too?

Both of these statements, and most of the others made in this thread, are so general as to be meaningless.

Who are "the bleeding heart liberals"? What is one? Where does it say that this undefined group is soft on criminals (whatever that phrase specifically means)? Proof? Stats? Scientific studies?

Which "history class"? Who says that what "they" teach in "history class" is worth listening to in the first place? Who writes the histories that they teach in "history class" and who says their version of history is the only true and accurate one?

This entire thread is full of irrational and ridiculously general statements like these.

Half of you go fire your guns if it gives you such an orgasm, and the other half go drink your white wine and brie and bitch about guns. That should solve everything.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Both of these statements, and most of the others made in this thread, are so general as to be meaningless.

Who are "the bleeding heart liberals"? What is one? Where does it say that this undefined group is soft on criminals (whatever that phrase specifically means)? Proof? Stats? Scientific studies?

Which "history class"? Who says that what "they" teach in "history class" is worth listening to in the first place? Who writes the histories that they teach in "history class" and who says their version of history is the only true and accurate one?

This entire thread is full of irrational and ridiculously general statements like these.

Half of you go fire your guns if it gives you such an orgasm, and the other half go drink your white wine and brie and bitch about guns. That should solve everything.

Hey I like white wine and brie...

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Michael Motley 15 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Hey I like white wine and brie...

Drunk, constipated and armed....this wont be good...
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- MichaelHiles 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Michael Motley
  
  Drunk, constipated and armed....this wont be good...
  
  With my digestive tract, I don't even need a "firearm".
  
  Second set of lungs, I tell ya'...
  
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Thomas

15 years ago

Originally Posted by KenStrong

...go drink your white wine and brie...

In the interest of pedantry, may I be the first to point out that any true gentlemen would know brie is best mixed with a good fruity red wine. Only a uncouth ruffian would suggest debasing its glorious piquancy with a white!

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Ken Strong

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

In the interest of pedantry, may I be the first to point out that any true gentlemen would know brie is best mixed with a good fruity red wine. Only a uncouth ruffian would suggest debasing its glorious piquancy with a white!

This authoritative source (it's online so it must be true) suggests otherwise... I'm as couth a ruffian as you'll find...

Guide to Wine and Cheese Pairings

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R Hagel 15 years ago

Originally Posted by KenStrong

...go fire your guns...

...go drink your white wine...

And if the twain shall meet?
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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Both of these statements, and most of the others made in this thread, are so general as to be meaningless.

Who are "the bleeding heart liberals"? What is one? Where does it say that this undefined group is soft on criminals (whatever that phrase specifically means)? Proof? Stats? Scientific studies?

Which "history class"? Who says that what "they" teach in "history class" is worth listening to in the first place? Who writes the histories that they teach in "history class" and who says their version of history is the only true and accurate one?

This entire thread is full of irrational and ridiculously general statements like these.

Half of you go fire your guns if it gives you such an orgasm, and the other half go drink your white wine and brie and bitch about guns. That should solve everything.

Thanks Ken.
Not having any idea how my mind works that post made me think of this song.

YouTube - Cypress Hill "Hand On The...

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TLTheLiberator

15 years ago

Originally Posted by KenStrong

Both of these statements, and most of the others made in this thread, are so general as to be meaningless.

Who are "the bleeding heart liberals"? What is one? Where does it say that this undefined group is soft on criminals (whatever that phrase specifically means)? Proof? Stats? Scientific studies?

Which "history class"? Who says that what "they" teach in "history class" is worth listening to in the first place? Who writes the histories that they teach in "history class" and who says their version of history is the only true and accurate one?

This entire thread is full of irrational and ridiculously general statements like these.

Half of you go fire your guns if it gives you such an orgasm, and the other half go drink your white wine and brie and bitch about guns. That should solve everything.

There is a group of Americans who actually believe that if no one has guns the criminals won't be able to get them either.

I've heard it plenty of times from "bleeding heart liberals".

I'm liberal, but not a bleeding heart which is a liberal with too many silliness and impractical notions about society.

My thing is, if a person doesn't want a gun then fine but do not attempt to take mine away from me.

If people think there's enough crime now, it would be 100x worse if criminals knew that people didn't have guns in their houses.

TL

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ThomM 15 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

If people think there's enough crime now, it would be 100x worse if criminals knew that people didn't have guns in their houses.

TL

That line reminded me of this video I was sent awhile ago.
http://tolodd.com/img/Gun.wmv
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Thomas

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

If people think there's enough crime now, it would be 100x worse if criminals knew that people didn't have guns in their houses.

If things would be worse if people didn't keep guns in their houses... but the the U.S. is already in first place when in comes to things like gun murders (both per capita and in terms of sheer numbers) among the developed nations of the world and is in the top 10 among all the nations of the world... then would it be fair to think Americans are a particularly violent people?

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

If things would be worse if people didn't keep guns in their houses... but the the U.S. is already in first place when in comes to things like gun murders (both per capita and in terms of sheer numbers) among the developed nations of the world and is in the top 10 among all the nations of the world... then would it be fair to think Americans are a particularly violent people?

Yea we are, wanna fight about it?

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Thomas

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Yea we are, wanna fight about it?

Well, will you just shoot me if I do... or face me like a real man?

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

Well, will you just shoot me if I do... or face me like a real man?

I don't own any guns at the moment Tommy

I'd say we could have a drink fight, but I think your Irish heritage would kick the crap out of my German heritage.
I know, spit balls at twenty paces

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Thomas

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I don't own any guns at the moment Tommy

I'd say we could have a drink fight, but I think your Irish heritage would kick the crap out of my German heritage.
I know, spit balls at twenty paces

Well, Germans aren't exactly known for their pacifist nature either. Tell you what: I'll wield a bottle of Baileys and you can use a hard bratwurst and we'll beat the living shit out of each other until one of us is left standing and... if we suddenly come over all peacenik... we can just sit down and have a nice Baileys and sausage picnic.

I like that plan better.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

Well, Germans aren't exactly known for their pacifist nature either. Tell you what: I'll wield a bottle of Baileys and you can use a hard bratwurst and we'll beat the living shit out of each other until one of us is left standing and... if we suddenly come over all peacenik... we can just sit down and have a nice Baileys and sausage picnic.

I like that plan better.

You win, lets eat and drink.
In fact I already have the Baileys chilling in the frig.

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seasoned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Trader54

Why are the bleeding heart liberals more obsessed in taking guns from law abiding citizens then going after the criminals?

YEAH, everyone misses THAT point! Did you know it is a FELONY for a felon in the US to even have a gun in their POSSESSION!?!?!? That is a stronger law than any any democrat dare try to now pass, but it has been there for DECADES! Still, NOBODY seems to enforce it! And what of the courts? They could be freed SO much! Just have the criminals ADMIT guilt for a lesser sentence there. After all, the GUN is often a GIVEN and THAT should land them in jail BY ITSELF! The court case should be merely a formality and to take care of the other charge.

Steve
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- Thomas 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Trader54
  
  Why are the bleeding heart liberals more obsessed in taking guns from law abiding citizens then going after the criminals?
  
  What do you do when the criminals become obsessed with taking guns from law-abiding citizens too!?
  
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  Trader54 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Thomas
  
  What do you do when the criminals become obsessed with taking guns from law-abiding citizens too!?
  
  Then your citizens need some training how to use them.
  
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

i'd go for the shooting part. you can be a 'real man' when you're laying on the ground with a sucking chest wound.

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Thomas

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

i'd go for the shooting part. you can be a 'real man' when you're laying on the ground with a sucking chest wound.

Sorry, I'm impervious to Yankee bullets, so I shan't be able to provide you with chest wounds of any kind.

Besides, I prefer my metal murder sticks European: Messrs. Heckler & Koch trump Messrs. Smith & Wessons fat flabby arses everytime.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

Sorry, I'm impervious to Yankee bullets, so I shan't be able to provide you with chest wounds of any kind.

Besides, I prefer my metal murder sticks European: Messrs. Heckler & Koch trump Messrs. Smith & Wessons fat flabby arses everytime.

We already know this. That's why we let FN make our infantry weapons.

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Good News Now

15 years ago

Guns are bad...and I would have thought that in the US with so much gun violence people would realise that. Guns should be in the hands only of authorised people like soldiers and police. Citizens don't need guns - they only get stolen, used against them, cause death by accident.

The argument for democracy is a load of tosh. The UK has had democracy for centuries without an armed citizenry.

In fact I would tend to argue the opposite - that guns are not democratic because they will always escalate violence.

The statistic that would interest me is the proportion of guns that has succesfully been used in self-defence as against the proportion of guns that has been stolen, used against the owners and caused unnecessary fatal accidcents. If that proportion were in favour of guns then I might be tempted to agree, but the facts seem to me to be the opposite.

Guns kill and that's the bottom line. We should all strive for less violence in society and guns actually promote violence - they are after all designed to kill or maim.

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MichaelHiles 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Good News Now

...
Guns kill and that's the bottom line...

You know, I have yet to ever see a gun jump up off the table and start firing at random all on its own.

That would be something.
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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Good News Now

Guns are bad...and I would have thought that in the US with so much gun violence people would realise that. Guns should be in the hands only of authorised people like soldiers and police. Citizens don't need guns - they only get stolen, used against them, cause death by accident.

Well, in Nazi germany, the brownshirts were allowed to have guns, and DID in church!

In the US, the north and south went to war. Some WERE authorized!

Criminals are NOT authorized, and THEY have guns.

One week in LA county, I heard of THREE police cars being stolen. Ones that had LOTS of GUNS and OTHER weapons!

MY gun, in about the 15 years I have had it has NEVER been stolen! I used to have a number of guns and THEY were never stolen!

Originally Posted by Good News Now

The argument for democracy is a load of tosh. The UK has had democracy for centuries without an armed citizenry.

It didn't do well against the US though, DID it!?!?!? Switzerland and israel BOTH have an armed citizenry. Japan and washington DC BOTH have high crime though NEITHER has guns!

Originally Posted by Good News Now

In fact I would tend to argue the opposite - that guns are not democratic because they will always escalate violence.

How do you figure? Lives have been saved! The people that robbed that bank in hollywood could have traveled the WORLD robbing banks if they weren't stopped!

Originally Posted by Good News Now

The statistic that would interest me is the proportion of guns that has succesfully been used in self-defence as against the proportion of guns that has been stolen, used against the owners and caused unnecessary fatal accidcents. If that proportion were in favour of guns then I might be tempted to agree, but the facts seem to me to be the opposite.

NOBODY can provide such statistics, because FEAR of a gun can prevent gun violence. Like an atomic bomb, it doesn't have to be used to work.

Originally Posted by Good News Now

Guns kill and that's the bottom line. We should all strive for less violence in society and guns actually promote violence - they are after all designed to kill or maim.

YEP! Guns KILL, so we need guns to hurt those that would use them to hurt!

Steve

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Thomas 15 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

It didn't do well against the US though, DID it!?!?!?

What does democracy in the U.K. despite the lack of an armed citizenry have to do with war with the Ameican colonies?

Besides, although my recollection of history might be faulty, I'm pretty sure the American War of Independence wasn't won because of an armed citizenry in the colonies (or the lack of one in Britain), but, rather, because of French intervention: Not only did the arrival of the French force the British to spread themselves too thinly but, Yorktown, the decisive battle of the war, was won because the French fleet, after defeating the Royal Navy at Chesapeake Bay, blockaded the port, preventing the escape or re-supply of Cornwallis, which forced him into surrender (to a force composed more of French regulars than American revolutionaries). That specific event collapsed political support for the war in Britain, caused the resignation of the Prime Minister, and led to the King losing control of Parliament to those in favour of a peaceful settlement, who then voted to end the war, ultimately leading to the Treaty of Paris.

Originally Posted by seasoned

Japan and washington DC BOTH have high crime though NEITHER has guns!

Japan has one of the lowest crime rates among all the developed nations.
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ryansjones

15 years ago

One thing that I do know about big churches is that sometimes huge churches can attract rough crowds (I attend a big church myself near Seattle). One church I attend is the City Church near Kirkland, and it is perhaps one of the largest churches in the Seattle area, and since there is usually a huge crowd there, while nobody carries guns, the church has hired police officers to patrol the buildings when everyone is at church to help maintain order at the church and catch unruly members.

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dlwebb610

15 years ago

Don't worry folks, the Obama regime will be disarming the public in the not too distant future. Just one more step towards the NWO.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dlwebb610

Don't worry folks, the Obama regime will be disarming the public in the not too distant future. Just one more step towards the NWO.

"Guns? What guns? They were all lost in a tragic boating accident."

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Tina Golden

15 years ago

[DELETED]

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Thomas 15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

... chains ...

I never understood why people consider chains a viable weapon. You've more likely to smack yourself in the back of the head with one when trying to swing it at someone else!
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valerieSONORA

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Yeah, isn't that what it's like in China and Iran? Working out real well for the people there.

Come on, guns kill people so are bad? Humanity fought many a war and there were many criminals long before guns were invented. The sad part of it is, if a human being wants to kill a human being, they don't need a gun to do it. Jack the Ripper didn't need no stinking gun, did he? I figured I'd use a UK example for a change.

So once we take away the right to bear arms, let's take away access to knives, baseball bats, tire irons, pipes, chains, etc. Then just pray that the authorized people somehow always have your best interest at heart because God help you if they don't.

Tina G (who wasn't going to get into the actual debate but just can't seem to help myself)

Yeah we really wanna be like Iran and China :rolleyes:

And don't forget hands. They kill too. Just wrap it around someones neck and squeeze till they stop breathing. If someone is intent on killing, they will do it with or without a gun.

What a messed up thread. :rolleyes:

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gareth

15 years ago

Well its funny here we are in 2009 nearly 2010.

We are still concerned today about WMD proliferation and terrorism, guns etc.

But basically today only a few world leaders and maybe a few hundred scientists have the direct capability to destroy most of human civilization in a short time.

But...

With desktop nanotechnology - which will happen in 10 or 20 yrs everybody on earth will have this capability.

So not only will anybody be able to kill anybody with a gun - anybody will be able to kill "everybody".

Now this will be a reality in the near future if the world remains free and democratic.

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Trader54

15 years ago

Originally Posted by gareth

With desktop nanotechnology - which will happen in 10 or 20 yrs everybody on earth will have this capability.

So not only will anybody be able to kill anybody with a gun - anybody will be able to kill "everybody".

Now this will be a reality in the near future if the world remains free and democratic.

I don't visit this Off Topic forum often but I think I should stay away.

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valerieSONORA

15 years ago

Originally Posted by gareth

Well its funny here we are in 2009 nearly 2010.

We are still concerned today about WMD proliferation and terrorism, guns etc.

But basically today only a few world leaders and maybe a few hundred scientists have the direct capability to destroy most of human civilization in a short time.

But...

With desktop nanotechnology - which will happen in 10 or 20 yrs everybody on earth will have this capability.

So not only will anybody be able to kill anybody with a gun - anybody will be able to kill "everybody".

Now this will be a reality in the near future if the world remains free and democratic.

Oh awesome, that will be fun! But 10 or 20 years??? Can't it come sooner like tomorrow?? Wonder who will get to press the button?

Originally Posted by Trader54

I don't visit this Off Topic forum often but I think I should stay away.

But we haven't even gotten into aliens and reptilians yet!!! You have to stay for that!

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slvrsrfr

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

I simply do not get the American obsession with guns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/us...ef=global-home

i think ron, that having a look through this thread you've probably been given a good idea as to why. at least i have.

but i'd like to add one thing. gandhi brought down british colonial tyranny with satyagraha. google it.

and it could work again if needs be.

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Ron Kerr

15 years ago

Originally Posted by slvrsrfr

i think ron, that having a look through this thread you've probably been given a good idea as to why. at least i have.

but i'd like to add one thing. gandhi brought down british colonial tyranny with satyagraha. google it.

and it could work again if needs be.

Thank you for your post but I honestly still do not understand the American obsession with guns and I am genuinely sad the way this thread has developed.

I have learned that some of the people posting who support their "right to guns" are good at personal abuse and referring to things that are totally irrelevant to the issue.

The funny thing is that I only asked why this particular church would allow guns and why America seems to me to be obsessed by guns.

I would hate to have said that Americans should not have guns - I most definitely did not. I thank those who have made reasoned posts on this thread.

I won't be posting in this thread again as rational debate with the obsessed seems impossible, so post as much as you want. One day some of the abusive, irrational people may learn that simply preaching to the choir does no good; you need to develop solid, rational positions that will cause all to think about what you have said and they may then accept your position.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

I don't actually have any way to support my position except my emotions, so I really have nothing left to offer in the face of people who present hard facts and rational supporting evidence like history and cause-and-effect.

Fixed it for you.

<<------------ (note... smiley face indicates jesting humor for those without the proper hardware retrofit)

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myob

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

Thank you for your post but I honestly still do not understand the American obsession with guns and I am genuinely sad the way this thread has developed.

I have learned that some of the people posting who support their "right to guns" are good at personal abuse and referring to things that are totally irrelevant to the issue.

The funny thing is that I only asked why this particular church would allow guns and why America seems to me to be obsessed by guns.

I would hate to have said that Americans should not have guns - I most definitely did not. I thank those who have made reasoned posts on this thread.

I won't be posting in this thread again as rational debate with the obsessed seems impossible, so post as much as you want. One day some of the abusive, irrational people may learn that simply preaching to the choir does no good; you need to develop solid, rational positions that will cause all to think about what you have said and they may then accept your position.

It is sad to me to see someone so seriously ignorant of history. This "obsession" with guns is only part of the American psyche. It is only one of the many symbols that empowered a citizenry to overthrow an oppressive government and to win independence. The right to bear arms is cherished just as is the "inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". For me, happiness is knowing my loved ones are protected from not only thugs, but as the ultimate deterrent and counterbalance from a government that may be encroaching on my Constitution. On July 4, hundreds of millions will demonstrably answer your question regarding that obsession.

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myob 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Kerr

The funny thing is that I only asked why this particular church would allow guns and why America seems to me to be obsessed by guns.

Citizens obsessed with guns are allowed to openly carry guns in bars and restaurants in Georgia and also in Tennesee -- as long as it's on a belt or holster, and in Arizona you are allowed to openly carry guns on the streets only while shopping, but not in bars or restaurants. Now, just last week, the Arizona Legislature approved citizens to carry concealed weapons without a permit. The killings still haven't picked up yet, so the Arizona Legislature decided to get a little more excitement going by moving to allow all citizens to carry concealed guns in bars. The bill has been approved by the Senate, and is now before the House. If the violence doesn't improve in Arizona, churches could be next.

Arizona moves to allow concealed guns in bars
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Michael Motley

15 years ago

Originally Posted by slvrsrfr

i think ron, that having a look through this thread you've probably been given a good idea as to why. at least i have.

but i'd like to add one thing. gandhi brought down british colonial tyranny with satyagraha. google it.

and it could work again if needs be.

Well ghandi had never been in a car jacking or face to face with a hoodrat during a home invasion in broad daylight either. peaceful resistance, just makes you a better/easier target.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Why should anyone be allowed to own a Ferrari?

Walking will get you to your destination.

The answer? Because we can.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Thank you for your post but I honestly still do not understand the American obsession with guns

I'd say it has to do with our history and heritage (like Paul eluded to).
Even before our country was founded, guns where a necessity for putting food on the table and for protection. Without guns we wouldn't be a country.
When our constitution was written the "right to bare arms" was added not only because they where still needed for protection and food but also to keep our government in line.

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Susanrh

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

I'd say it has to do with our history and heritage (like Paul eluded to).

When our constitution was written the "right to bare arms" was added not only because they where still needed for protection and food but also to keep our government in line.

Sleeves optional?

Sorry

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valerieSONORA

15 years ago

We can be obsessed with anything we want and it's nobodys business so there!

I heard stories about long ago in the country kids would bring guns to school. All the boys were into hunting and they would bring guns to school either after hunting or to go hunting after school I forgot. There was a gun rack and everything where the kids could hang their guns.

Yet not one single person got shot or killed even with numerous loaded guns right in the room. No security guards, no metal detectors. The kids just didn't want to murder other humans.

Yet today you have schools with metal detectors, security guards, zero tolerance policies and teachers, staff and kids still get shot and killed. There was a story about that boy who shot and killed the school security guard, walked past the metal detector and shot and killed as many people as he could before killing himself.

So guns aren't the problem. The issue is deeper than that and with the society is I don't think it can be fixed. Too much damage in society to undo and I don't see it happening.

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Thomas

15 years ago

Originally Posted by valerieSONORA

So guns aren't the problem. The issue is deeper than that and with the society is I don't think it can be fixed. Too much damage in society to undo and I don't see it happening.

Most likely you're just all going off your collective trolley!

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imcmillionaire

Banned 15 years ago

[DELETED]

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Trader54

15 years ago

Originally Posted by imcmillionaire

They are obsessed with guns because the average American watches 4 hours of tv a day. And television is filled with violence particularly guns! You know good cop and bad cop and the news. Its not suprosing, why they obessesed with guns. They are programmed with it each day.

LOL. Sorry but guns where around long before tv.

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by imcmillionaire

They are obsessed with guns because the average American watches 4 hours of tv a day. And television is filled with violence particularly guns! You know good cop and bad cop and the news. Its not suprosing, why they obessesed with guns. They are programmed with it each day.

WOW, we have an amature psychologist in our midst! I guess I want to be a can of coke also, because I see it ALL over! As for violence, I watch a LOT of comedies also. HECK, last night I watched "my cousin vinnie"! Interesting, I NEVER wanted to be a lawyer, or steal, etc... I liked Marisa Tomei there though! WOW, her father was a lawyer! I bet HE got a kick out of it also.

Steve

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meche

Banned 15 years ago

[DELETED]

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Wakunahum

15 years ago

Originally Posted by meche

i will never own a gun, period. it's especially dangerous if there are kids around... the news from about a month ago about a 3 yr old girl in california that accidentally shot her 2 yr old brother dead with a gun is shocking and simply unimaginable...

That is a tragedy.

I just got done reading the book freakonomics. In this book, it stated that swimming pools in the backyard cause over 100 times the death per year to children than a gun in the house. The assertion was made that there are many things more deadly in the home than a gun that parents have to be aware of.

I think it's the general attitude of a parent towards there children that a gun accident can occur. Electrical outlets are dangerous for children if a parent doesn't care or watch them just like a gun out in the open where a child can get to it. I'm not getting into the middle of this debate, but it's really an issue of parents not watching their kids. I guarantee I could hide a gun or any other dangerous object from a 3 year old if I had one. I think parents who protect their kids currently without a gun and take precautions could do so with a gun in their house safely as well.

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ThomM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by meche

i will never own a gun, period. it's especially dangerous if there are kids around... the news from about a month ago about a 3 yr old girl in california that accidentally shot her 2 yr old brother dead with a gun is shocking and simply unimaginable...

Like Wak said there are many things in a home that are more dangerous then a gun. If a three year old has access to a loaded gun, then I would say it is the parents in that case that are dangerous.
I used to have 4 hunting rifles in the house when the kids where growing up.
In fact they hung on the wall in a gun rack in the living room. The gun rack was always locked and the bullets where stored in the basement in a locked tool box. The point is guns are only as dangerous as the person who has them, I know I was shot once by a friend with an unloaded rifle.
On the other hand I have had three near misses on my motorcycle in the last two years with cars that the drivers where to busy or in to much of a hurry to bother paying attention to the road or their surroundings.
I say we should outlaw cars, they are the real friggen danger.

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MichaelHiles

15 years ago

Originally Posted by meche

i will never own a gun, period. it's especially dangerous if there are kids around... the news from about a month ago about a 3 yr old girl in california that accidentally shot her 2 yr old brother dead with a gun is shocking and simply unimaginable...

Meche... go to the CDC's website and compare the number of children who drown each year in backyard pools vs. the number of gun-related deaths.

I dare you.

Please post your findings for everyone.

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SteveJohnson

15 years ago

What *I* don't comprehend is why someone would leave the protection of their family up to someone else, i.e., the police, when law enforcement's sole and total function is deterrence and picking up the pieces after someone is robbed, beaten, stabbed, shot, or otherwise infringed upon.

You think that the police are going to get to your house in time to keep your family from getting murdered when the home invaders come - even assuming that you're able to call 911? All they're going to do is to take pictures of the aftermath...

Some of you people who live behind rose-colored glasses don't understand the people that commit these kinds of violent crimes. Once they're in your house, or on top of you, or have you cornered, there's no talking with them. There's no pleading, no begging for mercy. There's no time for the police to get there. The only option you have is to defend yourself and your family, or stand idly by and let the bad people do what they will.

THAT is why I have guns. That's why my 17-year old can qualify as a marksman with a 1911. And my 14-year old isn't far behind. They've been shooting since before they were 10. I don't have to worry about gun accidents around the house, because my kids are trained in their use and safety and they have a healthy respect for firearms. And they also know how and when to use them.

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valerieSONORA

15 years ago

If you can't get guns like ie: you're on the crazy list, tasers work good

Mess with me I'll taser you, jump up and down on you where the sun dont shine, pepper spray you, then taser you some more

And when I finally get my pet bobcats and bears and raccoons I'll sick em on you too.

We're the laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand of the freeeeeeeee and the home of the braaaaaaaaaaaaave and we can do what we want and be obsessed or not obsessed with what we not and no foreigner can tell us what to do

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