Selling nutrition? Will Codex Alimentarius shut you down 2010?

[Jeff Noel]

Michael you make me laugh man. Good thing you are not a lawyer you have had only one used one source of information. Do some research there is tons on the net from very reliable sources. Go to a bookstore or University library it will truly open your eyes. Yes wnd is not the best source but like I said there is so much more info from Universities and major research firms.
Guys like you are the ones that say "I should have." But feel free to shoulda all over yourself.

Going through this thread I have read so many posts from people who are taking responsibility for their own health and not willing to put their faith in governments and corporations or fancy marketing ploys.

Just to convince yourself even a little bit take a couple hours and research milk and dairy. Do some real research wnd won't cut it. What you will find is that dairy is one of the worst things for us yet we are told that it should be part of our daily diet and it does the body good. HOGWASH!

Hey Sal I really admire your passion to convince this guy to listen even a little bit. From what I have seen you write you have taken the time to really follow through to get the real facts about what is really going on in the world. Kudos’s to you. We share a lot of similar interests and passions.

Many years ago I decided I was only going to share the information I have with people that are interested. It’s ok to debate but all this guy wants to do is argue and he is wasting your time.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

When?When has the pharm. market ever put something out without testing? The funny part is that the pharm market puts stuff out and TELLS you of the side effects that range from anal leakage to death and people STILL take it, that shows you how stupid people are. But the pharm companies expressly tell you this. They put out papers, even have mini manuals with most medicines that tell you what tests were done, what the results were. It doesnt matter if people are too stupid to read and/or understand it, its there.

The root and berry crowd doesnt do this because they can't. They have never tested what in some cases are essentially wive's tales about the crap they sell. Not all, but a lot.

Believe what you will....

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by HeySal

Herbal remedies kill only a hand full of people yearly. Pharmaceutical drugs are the second leading cause of Death right behind Heart disease.

I JUST remembered a few problems CAUSED by drugs that drug companies KNEW about. One is PARTIALLY out of the alludding stage, and one just entered it! One came out a while back.

1. Propecia, and the effects caused by its anti DHT enzyme properties!
2. metaprolol, and its anti adrenalin properties. It can actually CAUSE a heart attack, though it is perscribed to prevent it.
3. anti depression drugs used to be prescribed WITHOUT the warning that they can CAUSE depression!

BTW St Johns Wort is PROVEN to be more effective than many anti depression drugs. Saw palmetto is PROVEN to be good at limiting DHT SAFELY.

Originally Posted by HeySal

Sunshine does not cause cancer outside of cases that people burn continually. Scientific proof - suppressed by sunscreen industry to the tune of almost a bil per year.

Scientific proof sunscreens cause the very disease they are meant to block - suppressed by sunscreen industry.

Yeah, there really isn't anything called a cancer cell. They are NORMAL cells that kind of go crazy because of damage. THAT is why breast cancer responds to estrogen, and testicular cancer responds to testosterone, and why they first grow where they start. Skin cancer is just skin that has gone crazy. That is ALSO why they speak of antioxidants. They ATTEMPT to reduce cellular damage.

Steve

[Michael Motley]

i think i hear the black helicopters hovering over my vitamin stash....

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by HeySal

Hmm. Gee, Michael. Do you have PROOF that they are wrong?

Also...I don't remember saying I was going to grow my own vegies. Hmmm. What's up with THAT?
LOL.

i never said they were wrong...

i bet this had something to do with hitler.

he could be still alive, and he's probably the puppet master behind the masive nutrition conspiracy.

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by Jeff Noel

Hey Sal I really admire your passion to convince this guy to listen even a little bit. From what I have seen you write you have taken the time to really follow through to get the real facts about what is really going on in the world. Kudos’s to you. We share a lot of similar interests and passions.

Many years ago I decided I was only going to share the information I have with people that are interested. It’s ok to debate but all this guy wants to do is argue and he is wasting your time.

Hell, Jeff - I am not trying to convince Michael or anyone else who is so blatantly slip programmed of anything - I talk for those who are physically capable of listening.

I am an absolutely voracious researcher when it comes to anything I am interested in. I don't even KNOW what wnd is. I might have breezed by the site sometime, but I've found that most sites aren't too far off with their info - some get off track, but when you see hundreds of websites sporting the same info you can bet if you read the bills, treatise, etc. you can find where they are getting their info and for the most part there is basic accuracy - just slanted one way or the other.

There is a problem with people understanding what they are reading. I have a degree in ethno-linguistics and also served as the Cheif Justice of my College's student gov, had a lot of political philosophy, etc courses, so I'm familiar with how they fandangle bills in ways that even some of congress can't recognize what's going on. People don't understand how different diffuse bills and docs, treatise, etc connect covertly outside of the wording of individual bills. It's all a very specialized and sinuous process.

RE: slip programming.
I wrote the book on this crap -literally. My dissertation assignment was to outline the field of ethno-linguisitcs because there was study in the area but the field had never been defined. My task was to define it and show applications in the real world. Part of what I found through the research necessary (for Michael's benefit, I don't think wnd existed at the time) was what is now known as NLP. (Etho-linguistics as a whole is where cognitive science, sociology, psychology, perception, language, biology all come together as one function in the brain).

You see - language is an instinct (yes proven). Any time you raise two individuals together with no communication with someone from the outside, they will develop language. Communication is instinctual in all animals and so strongly so that ferral kids that have turned up here and again are actually able to communicate with animals they grew up with as easily as you and I speak.
Mind you - I am talking about spoken language. Written language is NOT instinctual. However, because of their part in our perceptions and communication, words can trigger instinctive responses physically.

Now - animals can "sense" danger instincually. They do so via many senses - dogs mostly through sense of smell. When they smell something that is linked to "danger", a chemical is released in their brain and they will retreat from that which they perceive to be dangerous.

In humans we build these senses into our word usage. When a kid is small they need harmony with their environment, as harmony equals safety. If they are continually faced with reprimand when they express certain ideas it causes an upset in their feeling of safety and before long if they are not exposed to empiracle counterdiction to the reprimands to an idea, their brain will start secreeting chemicals that will produce a danger response when they hear certain verbal ideas or words.

This is why it is called slip programming. Someone who has learned that the word "conspiracy" accompanies negative enforcements, they will automaticallly reject any information that accompanies that word. Those that haggle about "tinfoil hats" are just expressing a genuinely hard wired fear insinct.

There isn't any way any of us will break that programming in a freaking forum. It's not for those that I write - I'm not going to waste my time convincing them. My writing is totally aimed at people who are physically able to digest it.

BTW -- I don't consider Tim to be slip programmed even though I know I tossed that out once or more during a heated discussion. He actually reads and examines before forming opinions. I do, however, also know that there are people such as him who just have such high levels of integrity that it is unimaginable to them that others that completely lack that quality easily gain power and convein in power and will use the power against us without feeling two whits about death or destruction they are causing. It's too bad everyone isn't as honest as he sees them as being - the world would be an awesome place! I'm not saying this just to butter TIm up - but to point out the difference between a true difference in opinion and a slip-programmed one.

HTH.

[Michael Motley]

Thats right. There's no need to convince anyone. Only those 'in the know' actually know about these things. If its on the internet, it must be true!

[TimPhelan]

Originally Posted by seasoned

BTW St Johns Wort is PROVEN to be more effective than many anti depression drugs.

"A study cofunded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) found that St. John's wort was no more effective than placebo in treating major depression of moderate severity. "

"St. John's wort is not a proven therapy for depression."

St. John's Wort and Depression [NCCAM Health Information]

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

"A study cofunded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) found that St. John's wort was no more effective than placebo in treating major depression of moderate severity. "

"St. John's wort is not a proven therapy for depression."

St. John's Wort and Depression [NCCAM Health Information]

Hey, there will be none of this truth and common sense stuff around here pal. This is a thread purely for speculation and conjecture!

now my advice to you would be go to your refrigerator, take out all vegetables, and hide them in a safe dark place.

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

"A study cofunded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) found that St. John's wort was no more effective than placebo in treating major depression of moderate severity. "

"St. John's wort is not a proven therapy for depression."

St. John's Wort and Depression [NCCAM Health Information]

Echinacea isn't all it's cracked up to be either. It is nutritious and can help to build some defenses, but if you are taking it because you're already sick - forget it, it's not potent enough. No denying the alternatives don't have some slick marketers, too - but better to take something not as effective as it is tooted to be, than something proven harmful but legal just because of the organization promoting a substance has the networking rights.

I don't care if it's natural or pharm -- due dilligence necessary. Because pharms exist in altered forms than the natural derivitive they are much more dangerous than most herbals (MOST). But that doesn't mean that you can go out and eat nightshade because it's natural either - or that echinacea will "cure" a cold.

[TelegramSam]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

"A study cofunded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) found that St. John's wort was no more effective than placebo in treating major depression of moderate severity. "

"St. John's wort is not a proven therapy for depression."

St. John's Wort and Depression [NCCAM Health Information]

Despite the fact that they are funded by the governement/big pharma you chose to quote only a part of the story. What about this line:

"There is some scientific evidence that St. John's wort is useful for milder forms of depression."

Also I love the way these kinds of things get described:

"St. John's wort interacts with certain drugs, and these interactions can limit the effectiveness of some prescription medicines."

What about the fact that certain drugs and prescription medicines can limit the effectiveness of St. John's Wort and herbs etc.

Anyway, stick to your "approved" crap and I'm sure you and your buddy will be fine.

If I asked you the question who is most responsible for your health, what would your answer be?

You?

or

Your doctor?

It is surprising how many people say doctor.

Sam

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by HeySal

I don't care if it's natural or pharm -- due dilligence necessary. Because pharms exist in altered forms than the natural derivitive they are much more dangerous than most herbals (MOST). But that doesn't mean that you can go out and eat nightshade because it's natural either - or that echinacea will "cure" a cold.

Well, echinacea never worked for me. Then again, cough medicine, even PRESCRIPTION NEVER helped me EITHER! One QUACK doctor prescribed "cough suppressant", and I wanted to WRING HIS NECK, LITERALLY! LOGICALLY, it would suppress the NEED to cough, RIGHT?!?!?!? Well, it suppressed my ABILITY to cough. I was trying to cough all night.

And what about HEADACHES? They prescribed WORTHLESS drugs that never seemed to help, but vitamin B and magnesium DID! I haven't had a headache in YEARS, outside of when I was sick. And the last time I was prescribed ibuprofen, I told the doctor "FORGET IT, THAT DOESN'T WORK WITH ME!"! He SWORE I was taking it wrong! I WAS! You know what my problem was? I WAS FOLLOWING DIRECTIONS! I took the 400mg it said to take on the box. The PRESCRIPTION form says to take 800mg! THAT worked, but can cause LIVER DAMAGE! MEDICAL FACT, AGAIN!

Steve

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

"A study cofunded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) found that St. John's wort was no more effective than placebo in treating major depression of moderate severity. "

"St. John's wort is not a proven therapy for depression."

St. John's Wort and Depression [NCCAM Health Information]

Let me tell you a little story Tim
Back in 96 someone close to me was diagnosed with major depression and placed on Zoloft. After around 6 months the person felt normal, but in a chemically induced kind of way. By the way what lend to the person seeing a doctor was this. They had decided on the way they would commit suicide by eating the Angel of Death mushroom which would be in season in just a couple of weeks.
Anyways after 6 months of Zoloft and weekly doctor visits (they had to call the doctors office daily for the first 2 months besides the weekly visits) they decided to stop taking the Zoloft and start taking St. Johns Wort.
After a couple of weeks they noticed they felt normal but in a natural way. After 6 months of St. John's Wort they where able to stop the herb with no ill effects.
Almost every year the depression starts to come back and is noticed when thoughts of death are happy thoughts. St. Johns Wort for a month is usually all it takes to end the depression.
When people for centuries have been taking the same herb for the same ailment I have to think there is something to it, like Organic Apple Cider Vinegar for Arthritis.
I remember my old doctor telling me once that smoking cannabis doesn't stop any pain, it just makes it so you can't feel it

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by TelegramSam

Despite the fact that they are funded by the governement/big pharma you chose to quote only a part of the story. What about this line:

"There is some scientific evidence that St. John's wort is useful for milder forms of depression."

Also I love the way these kinds of things get described:

"St. John's wort interacts with certain drugs, and these interactions can limit the effectiveness of some prescription medicines."

What about the fact that certain drugs and prescription medicines can limit the effectiveness of St. John's Wort and herbs etc.

Anyway, stick to your "approved" crap and I'm sure you and your buddy will be fine.

If I asked you the question who is most responsible for your health, what would your answer be?

You?

or

Your doctor?

It is surprising how many people say doctor.

Sam

Because why would you want to trust your health to a HEALTH PROFESSIONAL who has had 10+ YEARS of higher education in the healing arts. Surely YOU are much more knowledgeable and skilled than someone that works in the health field everyday right?

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

Because why would you want to trust your health to a HEALTH PROFESSIONAL who has had 10+ YEARS of higher education in the healing arts. Surely YOU are much more knowledgeable and skilled than someone that works in the health field everyday right?

From the moment you wake up in the morning until the moment you wake up the next morning, you are responsible for yourself. That would be 7 days a week, 365(6) days a year.
You are as responsible for your health as you are your lack of it. Just like you are responsible for not ****ting your pants and using the toilet.
You are responsible for you.

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by ThomM

From the moment you wake up in the morning until the moment you wake up the next morning, you are responsible for yourself. That would be 7 days a week, 365(6) days a year.
You are as responsible for your health as you are your lack of it. Just like you are responsible for not ****ting your pants and using the toilet.
You are responsible for you.

You are also responsible for your car, but you still take it to a mechanic
you're responsible for your plumbing, but you still call a plumber
You are responsible for your children's teeth, but they still go to an orthadontist

You dont know everything your doctor knows, thats why he's eyeball deep in school loans and you're not.

And again, now we're back to why this kind of field needs to be regulated. People have been told from the 'omg the gov't is coming to get me' types that you can suck on berries and cure cancer.

Look at the retarded female in the news a couple months ago. Her child was diagnosed with cancer, this moron thought that a little bit of healing and some berries and he'll be ok.

I've seen what cancer does to a person, i have no doubt in my mind that berries or sucking on some obscure root isnt going to fix that and anyone who thinks it will probably shouldnt be allowed to be around sharp objects.

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by Michael Motley

You are also responsible for your car, but you still take it to a mechanic
you're responsible for your plumbing, but you still call a plumber
You are responsible for your children's teeth, but they still go to an orthadontist

You dont know everything your doctor knows, thats why he's eyeball deep in school loans and you're not.

And again, now we're back to why this kind of field needs to be regulated. People have been told from the 'omg the gov't is coming to get me' types that you can suck on berries and cure cancer.

Look at the retarded female in the news a couple months ago. Her child was diagnosed with cancer, this moron thought that a little bit of healing and some berries and he'll be ok.

I've seen what cancer does to a person, i have no doubt in my mind that berries or sucking on some obscure root isnt going to fix that and anyone who thinks it will probably shouldnt be allowed to be around sharp objects.

Come on Mike, that's just passing the buck and you damn well know it.
You're responsible for the daily upkeep of your car, plumbing, and your kids teeth.
As far as the cancer bit, well after going through that with my last wife I think I gained a little knowledge and insight in that area.
I'd trust my own research and go 100% Holistic in treatment if I ever get the disease. All her so called expert doctor's did was kill her with chemo, in fact one of these "experts" told me that once you have cancer, nutrition doesn't matter any more.
By the way her original doctor diagnosed her as having ulcers instead of cancer and treated her with Tagament. By the time the cancer was properly diagnosed it had spread in to her liver, kidneys, and the rest of her lower bowels, at that time it was how long she would live, and not if she would survive.
Yep Doctors, those are the ones I want to trust with my life

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by ThomM

Come on Mike, that's just passing the buck and you damn well know it.
You're responsible for the daily upkeep of your car, plumbing, and your kids teeth.
As far as the cancer bit, well after going through that with my last wife I think I gained a little knowledge and insight in that area.
I'd trust my own research and go 100% Holistic in treatment if I ever get the disease. All her so called expert doctor's did was kill her with chemo, in fact one of these "experts" told me that once you have cancer, nutrition doesn't matter any more.
By the way her original doctor diagnosed her as having ulcers instead of cancer and treated her with Tagament. By the time the cancer was properly diagnosed it had spread in to her liver, kidneys, and the rest of her lower bowels, at that time it was how long she would live, and not if she would survive.
Yep Doctors, those are the ones I want to trust with my life

I think that you can't be totally out of the loop when it comes to your health, but I also think that if you think you are more educated in the ways of your body than your doctor, you're probably kidding yourself.

My dad was like that. He was a very intelligent man...when it came to mechanical engineering and fabrication, but not medicine. 'Those damn doctors don't know anything, i could do this better myself'

he's dead now. How do you think that whole being smarter than your doctor thing worked out for him?

[ThomM]

Well we're all going to die Mike.
In some cases doctors can prolong your life.
They prolonged my father's life by 6 years.
Of course they where the worst years of his life because he was confined to either his chair or bed, had to be feed through a tube in his stomach and had no real quality of life at all. But yea it sure was good of the experts to keep him going for those 6 years, I sure did enjoy him begging me to kill him almost every day of it.
Sorry Mike there are very, very few doctor's I trust in knowing what they are doing.
The long list would by my Orthopedic Surgeon and, oh wait, that's it.

[TelegramSam]

Now I understand where the narrow-minded attitude comes from.

Basically it is not taking full responsibility for your own health.

That doesn't mean you can't see your doctor if you think you need to, or take some supplements if you think you need to.

But the moment you think your doctor has more responsibility for your health than you do, is the day you have decided to hand control over to someone else.

That is a very slippery slope to be travelling down.

Anyway, I am done discussing this topic with a fool.

[Michael Motley]

Originally Posted by TelegramSam

Now I understand where the narrow-minded attitude comes from.

Basically it is not taking full responsibility for your own health.

That doesn't mean you can't see your doctor if you think you need to, or take some supplements if you think you need to.

But the moment you think your doctor has more responsibility for your health than you do, is the day you have decided to hand control over to someone else.

That is a very slippery slope to be travelling down.

Anyway, I am done discussing this topic with a fool.

Not more responsibility...more knowledge. You're not the doctor. If you were a doctor, you wouldnt be sitting on an internet marketing forum arguing about how people know more than their doctors.

[TelegramSam]

Crap!

I personally know a number of doctors who are VERY knowledgeable, but they are overweight and unhealthy.

Why?

Because they are not taking responsibility for their health.

You can have all the knowledge in the world but without responsibility it counts for very little.

Yet, they are qualified to "heal" others.

Doctors also have one of the highest suicide rates and also heart disease and depression rates.

So don't go spewing out crap saying doctors have all the answers or they are even the best answer. Because that isn't necessarily true.

Some of the brightest people I know are accountants. Experts with money and years of training. Yet they couldn't start and run a company if their lives depended on it. Yet they are deemed to be experts in money matters because they are "qualified".

Etc. etc.

[TimPhelan]

I'm glad your friend made it through that tough period Thom.

One of the reasons that study I posted said St. John's Wort wasn't effective is because the results were the same as with the placebo. That doesn't mean some people didn't feel less depressed, it just means that a placebo can make you feel less depressed also. A placebo can make a lot of people feel like they feel better for all sorts of ailments. The mind is a powerful thing. If you are taking something and you believe it is helping you, then you have a good chance of feeling better. That's why it's important to have to controlled testing instead of word of mouth testimonials.

Sure, St. John's wort has been used for a long time for depression, but that doesn't mean it really is any more effective than a placebo.

Originally Posted by ThomM

Let me tell you a little story Tim
Back in 96 someone close to me was diagnosed with major depression and placed on Zoloft. After around 6 months the person felt normal, but in a chemically induced kind of way. By the way what lend to the person seeing a doctor was this. They had decided on the way they would commit suicide by eating the Angel of Death mushroom which would be in season in just a couple of weeks.
Anyways after 6 months of Zoloft and weekly doctor visits (they had to call the doctors office daily for the first 2 months besides the weekly visits) they decided to stop taking the Zoloft and start taking St. Johns Wort.
After a couple of weeks they noticed they felt normal but in a natural way. After 6 months of St. John's Wort they where able to stop the herb with no ill effects.
Almost every year the depression starts to come back and is noticed when thoughts of death are happy thoughts. St. Johns Wort for a month is usually all it takes to end the depression.
When people for centuries have been taking the same herb for the same ailment I have to think there is something to it, like Organic Apple Cider Vinegar for Arthritis.
I remember my old doctor telling me once that smoking cannabis doesn't stop any pain, it just makes it so you can't feel it

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by seasoned

Well, echinacea never worked for me. Then again, cough medicine, even PRESCRIPTION NEVER helped me EITHER! One QUACK doctor prescribed "cough suppressant", and I wanted to WRING HIS NECK, LITERALLY! LOGICALLY, it would suppress the NEED to cough, RIGHT?!?!?!? Well, it suppressed my ABILITY to cough. I was trying to cough all night.

And what about HEADACHES? They prescribed WORTHLESS drugs that never seemed to help, but vitamin B and magnesium DID! I haven't had a headache in YEARS, outside of when I was sick. And the last time I was prescribed ibuprofen, I told the doctor "FORGET IT, THAT DOESN'T WORK WITH ME!"! He SWORE I was taking it wrong! I WAS! You know what my problem was? I WAS FOLLOWING DIRECTIONS! I took the 400mg it said to take on the box. The PRESCRIPTION form says to take 800mg! THAT worked, but can cause LIVER DAMAGE! MEDICAL FACT, AGAIN!

Steve

Steve -(and Thom) If St. Johns Wart works or not, I can't say. I'm not arguing with Tim's research because I'm not familiar with it or the source that I remember, and it's a herb I have never needed so really don't care either way if it works or not.

As far as the alternative drugs, they are known to cause major psychological problems and I really don't understand how giving someone something that can induce suicidal tendencies is a good treatment for depression?

If you think echancea works for you, then by all means take it. There is nothing in it that will harm you and, as I mentioned, it does help build resistance. I have taken it and agree with the research that said that once you are sick it's too late - I use it in conjunction because it's good for you, but not alone. Golden seal and massive quantities of OJ, and a dose of zinc. Mostly the only colds I get are actually allergies, but then I eat blood purifiers as a rule at least a few times a week so I don't really get colds.
See - if you don't keep your blood clean, then kill something invading, it takes a day to wash the dead crap out of your blood and if you've got a lot of other garbage floating around in there you will get toxic poisoning effect that will really make you feel like crap for another 24 until it filters through. LOL. Another thing - if you keep the crap out of your bloodstream in the first place, there's nothing in there to make you freaking sick or give you diseases.

Some of the most dangerous drugs on the market are fake aspirin - advil is the leading cause of kidney failure in the US - but they still feed it to us -because it relieves a headache and makes them money. Wonder what hurts when your kidneys shut down? I have no plans in finding out, thanks.

When I cut my hand and had to go for stitches the doctor told me 10 days and I said BS. 4 days. I was right. I knew all the elements my skin needed to heal. When he looked at me 4 days later with his head tilted like the RCA dog, I just laughed. He took the stitches out that day. I can't find where the cut was. It didn't scar.

I'm thinking Thom's philosophy is pretty right on: if it's been used for centuries there's probably something to it. That's the way pharmaceutical co's look at it when they go looking for how a plant works. Anyone who thinks the research isn't there that proves an herb works, isn't seeing the whole picture. Once the drug is made from it, why would they allow advertisement of a more safe competitor when they have a legal option to shut them up? That doesn't make sense from any marketers standpoint. "My product is more expensive, highly dangerous, and there is a natural alternative with no side effects right here" ---Good way to go broke. LMAO

[ThomM]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

I'm glad your friend made it through that tough period Thom.

One of the reasons that study I posted said St. John's Wort wasn't effective is because the results were the same as with the placebo. That doesn't mean some people didn't feel less depressed, it just means that a placebo can make you feel less depressed also. A placebo can make a lot of people feel like they feel better for all sorts of ailments. The mind is a powerful thing. If you are taking something and you believe it is helping you, then you have a good chance of feeling better. That's why it's important to have to controlled testing instead of word of mouth testimonials.

Sure, St. John's wort has been used for a long time for depression, but that doesn't mean it really is any more effective than a placebo.

Me too Tim
I know what you're saying about the placebo and also the mind.
But controlled studies are just that, controlled.
When I went to college for culinary arts and plant science there was one reoccurring fact that all the good instructors and professors drilled into your head. It was, you are learning this in a controlled environment.
Any similarities between this and the real world is purely accidental.

Seeing how I live in the real world and not a controlled environment. I'll take the 100's of years of use as a better testament to somethings effectiveness over a controlled study any day.

[Jeff Noel]

I am going to state something rather radical that I heard a number of years ago "The disease is the cure"
I will give you an example of what that means. If you look at cancer tumors what are they? Most people are conditioned that they are the disease. When in fact what they are is the result of the disease. A cancerous tumor is formed in this way. Our blood cell become degraded or mutated in the body. The human body is designed to protect itself so what the body will do is move these mutated or degraded cell to a certain place in the body (fat first then the weakest organ) until they can be eliminated. However when the body cannot remove these quick enough the body will then protect the rest of the blood by forming a protective barrier around those cell. This protective barrier is lymph. For those who are unaware of what lymph is, it is the garbage collector in our blood stream. The combination of these mutated cells and the barrier around them we call a tumor.

So the tumor is not the disease it is the cure of the disease. What the medical establishment teaches is that by removing the tumor whether it is by surgery or radiation ect is the only way to cure the disease.

What many doctors and researchers around the world have discovered since the discovery of the work in the Medical Library at the University of Paris of the work of Antione BeChamp 1875. Antione BeChamp proved what I explained above with titles like.

• The Explanation of biological transformation of matter from one form to another across species specific lines.

• Description of biological transformation or pleomorphism.

• A single plate colony of bacteria going through biological transformation proving the changeability of matter and exposing the germ theory as a fraud.

In total Antione BeChamp wrote 28 books proving the fact that the disease is not the cure.

Unfortunately not many people are aware of Antione BeChamp because his research which proves that all disease could be avoided by natural means. What this means to the medical and pharmaceutical establishment is an economical disaster. So the med/pharm corporation did every possible thing to discredit this great man and they did a fantastic job doing so.

In fact a big reason why organizations like the FDA, Monsanto and WHO were created under the guise to protect the 'public' when in reality what they are truly designed to do is keep the med/pharm corporation in great demand by suppressing information and research. They do this by putting strict laws and threatening those that come forth with claims back by solid research that they can help to cure disease or help prevent it.

To sum up what the research of Antione BeChamp has proved is that the main cause of disease and illness is "The over acidification of our bodies" This is the source of all disease.

Fortunately and thanks to many great men and women around the world this information is becoming more available to the general population. The work of people like Dr. Robert O. Young, Dr. Gabriel Cousins, David Wolfe and so many more are making such an impact on people that there are movements all over the world to challenge the med/pharm establishment like never before.

The internet has actually been a huge enemy to med/pharm corporation that certain groups are trying to shut it down. Just recently Jay Rockefeller approached congress on making the internet illegal. Of course there are other reasons why this man wants the internet made illegal for every man and woman but we are talking about the health issue. The med/pharm industries have invested millions of dollars to make this happen. Look it up on YouTube type Jay Rockefeller as your key word.

Finally if we allow organizations that are funded by the med/pharm industry we are truly doomed. Being sick is big money and as they say money is power. Do you really want to give all the power to organizations that are going to decide on your health and well being?

Codex Alimentarius is not just about regulation of vitamins and herbs. It is about changing the nutritional value of everything that we put in our bodies. Therefore, making it more difficult to maintain a healthy being.

[TimPhelan]

Kind of two different things there. You really want a test to be controlled in science. In regards to cooking, I can see why the instructors said what they did.

The best type of controlled study is the double blind. In this study, neither the test giver or test recipient know which items are controlled. The results of these types of tests are what science is all about. They show what really works and what doesn't.

Just because something has been believed to be effective for many years isn't scientific. It's hearsay basically. Hell, people thought for hundreds of years that blood letting was the cure for many ailments. Does that make it right?

Originally Posted by ThomM

Me too Tim
I know what you're saying about the placebo and also the mind.
But controlled studies are just that, controlled.
When I went to college for culinary arts and plant science there was one reoccurring fact that all the good instructors and professors drilled into your head. It was, you are learning this in a controlled environment.
Any similarities between this and the real world is purely accidental.

Seeing how I live in the real world and not a controlled environment. I'll take the 100's of years of use as a better testament to somethings effectiveness over a controlled study any day.

[TimPhelan]

OK, I calling you on this one. I could on others, but lets see where Jay said he wanted to make the internet illegal. LOL. Haha. What utter BS!

Originally Posted by Jeff Noel

Just recently Jay Rockefeller approached congress on making the internet illegal. Of course there are other reasons why this man wants the internet made illegal for every man and woman but we are talking about the health issue.

[TimPhelan]

So Chinese medicine has been around for thousands of years. Must work then. Right? If so, why do they keep putting western drugs in their "herbs"? There's been several stories like this. In fact I first heard about this on the Dean Adell show about 10 years ago, but here's one of the latest. I can just hear some of the users say "Damn, this Chinese herbal s**t works GREAT!"

Fears over Chinese 'herbal Viagra' containing hidden doses of pharmaceutical drugs | Mail Online

[Jeff Noel]

Here you go Tim recorded by cspan - of course he is using the old for homeland security as his platform.

YouTube - Jay Rockefeller: Internet should have...

Oh and there is this one on censorship and control over what can be seen over the net.

YouTube - The Death of The Internet?

enjoy he is your politican not mine.

[TimPhelan]

Yep, thought you would show that. So by him saying "it almost makes you ask if we would have been better off if we hadn't invented the internet", you somehow leap to the hysterical conclusion that he "approached congress on making the internet illegal". LOL. Great going. Keep them coming.

Originally Posted by Jeff Noel

Here you go Tim recorded by cspan - of course he is using the old for homeland security as his platform.

YouTube - Jay Rockefeller: Internet should have never existed

enjoy he is your politican not mine.

[HeySal]

It doesn't matter how a study is constructed - it can be stacked if someone needs to get a certain outcome. That's why I like to know who funded the research. To me that is more important than the study itself sometimes. A company that stands to gain millions or billions from a certain outcome, can, and often does, produce that outcome. The best research results from Doctors who start to question events.

Doctors don't have time to read every one of the thousands of studies taking place and they often just accept FDA approval ...at first. Once they start noticing things going wrong they will start looking deeper into the research and that's when they find out what is wrong - it's rigged research that gets harmful product approved in almost every case I've seen. And it's a bitch getting something taken off the market once it's there unless it's killing so fast it's causing FDA lawsuits.
Unfortunately - real studies don't have the promotional money behind them that Major corps do either so their results stay suppressed longer - sometimes forever.

That's what happened with chemical sunscreens. One doctor thought it was weird that the incidence of melanoma was rising rapidly despite sunscreen and started looking at stats - then he started looking at research about the same time many doctors were commenting on how prevelent Vit D deficiency was getting. ALL of the sudden it becomes known that chemical sunscreens cause the very disease they were supposed to prevent. Kewl. And people are suffering 11 different cancers and many syndromes and other diseases because the the advice to stay out of the sun. When will that become broadly publicized? Years. It takes doctors voicing it loudly enough that it becomes uncontainable. Some doctors quit because of this kind of pressure from the pharms to keep their mouths shut.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

So Chinese medicine has been around for thousands of years. Must work then. Right? If so, why do they keep putting western drugs in their "herbs"? There's been several stories like this. In fact I first heard about this on the Dean Adell show about 10 years ago, but here's one of the latest. I can just hear some of the users say "Damn, this Chinese herbal s**t works GREAT!"

Fears over Chinese 'herbal Viagra' containing hidden doses of pharmaceutical drugs | Mail Online

Take what dean Edell says WITH A GRAIN OF SALT! He has SAID YOU DON'T NEED PROTEIN! I believe he even said you don't need vitamins! He EVEN has an anecdote about a guy that called in and said he was just another quack and to prove it asked a difficult eye question. Dean, to his amazement, answered the question correctly! HOW?!?!?!? Dean is an OPTHAMOLOGIST! He let the guy go off AMAZED that he got the question right!

Dean Edell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Steve

[Jeff Noel]

Actually, you don't need protein, carbs or fats. You don't need a certain amount of calories per day.

What you need are a certain level of micro nutrients that proteins, carbs and fats supply. The best way to get these micro nutrients is through food. The hard part is eating enough food per day in the right quanities to get everything we need.

This is were the supplement industry can fill those gaps.

It's funny you should bring up sunscreen Sal. I am currently doing a great deal of research on the skin care / cosmetics industry right now. Scary stuff, that I am learning very scary.

[myob]

This is exactly why we need Codex Alimentarius - to provide truth in labeling and protecting consumers from false claims.

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by Jeff Noel

It's funny you should bring up sunscreen Sal. I am currently doing a great deal of research on the skin care / cosmetics industry right now. Scary stuff, that I am learning very scary.

Hell, the leading acne treatment is listed on the US MSDS toxic chemical list. People are paying one hell of a lot of money to smear that crap on their faces. I know a natural element that clears up acne in 2-3 days and does so with benefits rather than chemicals that destroy dna........take a look at my sig.

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by myob

This is exactly why we need Codex Alimentarius - to provide truth in labeling and protecting consumers from false claims.

Oh, why absolutely - they are doing such an excellent job with pharmaceuticals, self-care products, household cleaners, environmental toxins, MONSANTO, food additives, etc that we MUST give them MORE control. Let's make them come in and cook the crap for us, too - just to make sure we are adhering to Corporate standards.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Jeff Noel

Actually, you don't need protein, carbs or fats. You don't need a certain amount of calories per day.

What you need are a certain level of micro nutrients that proteins, carbs and fats supply. The best way to get these micro nutrients is through food. The hard part is eating enough food per day in the right quanities to get everything we need.

This is were the supplement industry can fill those gaps.

It's funny you should bring up sunscreen Sal. I am currently doing a great deal of research on the skin care / cosmetics industry right now. Scary stuff, that I am learning very scary.

WOW! WHY EAT?!?!? I guess we don't need calcium and magnesium either!

PLEASE, TRY living even without just protein! Talk to us in a year. You will get RICH!!!!!!!!! You will be on the news, hired to do talks, etc.....! BTW WHY eat food? Food has fats, carbs, proteins, and calories, so OBVIOUSLY, you will have to do without food!

Steve

[Jeff Noel]

Originally Posted by seasoned

WOW! WHY EAT?!?!? I guess we don't need calcium and magnesium either!

PLEASE, TRY living even without just protein! Talk to us in a year. You will get RICH!!!!!!!!! You will be on the news, hired to do talks, etc.....! BTW WHY eat food? Food has fats, carbs, proteins, and calories, so OBVIOUSLY, you will have to do without food!

Steve

What I stated Steve is that we need what is inside of protein. The micro nutrients in it. Amino acids ect. Calcium, magnesium, iron are micro nutrients.

We need to eat food to get these micro nutrients. Food provides us with the very best sources of these micro nutrients. You can get protein from vegtables, meat or fish.

I never said that you don't have to eat food.

[myob]

Originally Posted by HeySal

Oh, why absolutely - they are doing such an excellent job with pharmaceuticals, self-care products, household cleaners, environmental toxins, MONSANTO, food additives, etc that we MUST give them MORE control. Let's make them come in and cook the crap for us, too - just to make sure we are adhering to Corporate standards.

This is classic conspiracy nutcase fear-mongering. The Codex Alimentarius will force purveyors of snake oil products to substantiate their outlandish claims for "cure-alls" with standard scientific research practices rather than hype, anecdotes and old wives' tales. Consumers are in more danger by continuing to take hyped up worthless elixers and unregulated mega doses of vitamins and herbs that may cause damage to liver, kidneys, and other organs. The health industry needs regulation to weed out the unscrupulous and to protect the ignorant. When the Codex Alimentarius takes effect, the snake oil marketers will be driven underground.

[The 13th Warrior]

Maybe there's a conspiracy , maybe there's not, but I'm more on the side of conspiracy for various reasons.

Lipitor, just ONE drug , among the multitudes of drugs pharmaceutical companies sales, annual sales out performed the total sales of NFL,NBA,NHL,MLB and maybe a few other sports frachise teams COMBINED.

You think these guys don't have pretty much ALL the politicians in there pocket, with that kinda juice?

Especially when lobbyist get political positions, check previous administrations staff and current.

Why should a effin lobbyist have more access to politicians than a citizen anyways, who are the mother-eff'ers representing anyway? answer: not you, you get whats left, "IF" there's any.

The lobbyist sit right there with the lawmakers as they craft the law, imagine that, a paid representative helping right law, for the benefit of their corporation, yeah.

By the way, any law that can't be made simple, read thoroughly, should never be passed, they pass stuff they don't even KNOW whats in it, what a nice crock and hustle.

Private corporations seem to be buying our government, literally, can you see the writing on the wall?

People jumped up and down about the oil companies that's profits are such an abomination , like when ONE dude got a $400,000,000 "bonus", jesus christ, if that is his "bonus" what the freakin was his salary?

But if you jumped up and down about that, there's another dude that makes him look like a chump, and it just so happens its in the pharmaceutical industry........,......THIS dude got a $1,000,000,000, thats a BILLION with a "B" gang, as a bonus, what the hell was his salary?

That billion could've been used to save someones life or leg, but you know why he got the bonus , don't you?

One of the qualities corporations hire in their executives is the skill to sign people up for one thing, then LEGALLY being able to selectively deny them what they are paying for.

So you think that an industry that can pay ONE dude, a B-I-L-L-I-O-N smackers want people to be healthy, eat naturally an use low cost, if not out right cheap or free natural supplements that work far better than there drugs?

If you can pay a dude a billion dollar bonus "+" salary, what do you think the entity that paid him is making?

Everyone knows the FDA is a whore that's bought, reserved and paid for into the next two centuries.

More and more, a corporate "owned" world and government.

Something the size of an orbiting moon can be breaking earths stratosphere, on fire, and people STILL won't see or believe until its too late.......,

........too caught up in justifiying ideologies, historic romance of unfactual history, religious wishful thinking, intellectual dishonesty and deniability, secular boundaries that ONLY operate within what one believes, depite reality, because, some how, some way, some one, some where, somebody's going to turn it around because no one believes corruption will ever get corrupt enough to destroy everything in such a permanent way....,

.....if that philosophy and approach was used in the "treatment"(not cure) for cancer , there will be a whole lot more dead people, especially if the body's anatomy reacted that way, the body, whatever your philosophy or belief, works day and night, tirelessly, to crush and detroy any trace of evil it encounters, and if it can't or does not have the sufficient tools ingested to do so, will attempt to form, isolate,and encapsulates(imprisons) said foreign matter, what is called a tumor, and we have lots of tumors in power that need to be totally encapsulated, forever.

Truth...., its not about whats real or what the truth really and truly is, the truth is moot.

If the truth does not get what people want, whether they should have, or not, deserve it or not, then we define it as not being the truth, so it does not matter what the facts/science/history is or is not, we are like them, the dictators and power mad divine manefesto believers.

The moment you think you are not like them , is the moment you become them and be blinded forever, no matter how small you think you are or are not contributing to the problem.


The 13 th Warrior

[Jeff Noel]

Here is how the US goverment and the Pharm is dealing with the FORCED untested and unproven vaccination.

I will admit that I am not sure how reliable the source is:

Immunity set for flu vaccine makers - CharlotteObserver.com

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Jeff Noel

What I stated Steve is that we need what is inside of protein. The micro nutrients in it. Amino acids ect. Calcium, magnesium, iron are micro nutrients.

We need to eat food to get these micro nutrients. Food provides us with the very best sources of these micro nutrients. You can get protein from vegtables, meat or fish.

I never said that you don't have to eat food.

Amino Acids AREN'T micro nutrients! And that is what PROTEIN is, it is basically just a bunch of amino acids. GRANTED, they may be combined in different ways, but that is part of the reason why we need B6, magnesium, etc... and they actually say that COMPLICATED proteins are better. QUICK ones may digest too fast. If they are digested before they are needed, they can be deaminated, and possibly become fat!

Steve

[HeySal]

Originally Posted by Jeff Noel

Here is how the US goverment and the Pharm is dealing with the FORCED untested and unproven vaccination.

I will admit that I am not sure how reliable the source is:

Immunity set for flu vaccine makers - CharlotteObserver.com

Despite what "they" want you to know - vacs can be legally waviered for numerous reasons including philosophical and religious. They can't force me to have a flu vac ever because my records show I have an allergy to eggs.

I've heard of schools forcing vacs, too - but to my knowledge that bill was never actually passed into law. They will do everything to make you think it is, but unless there are local laws, I'd check that out real careful before allowing anyone to tell you that you have no choice. I do know that if they give a TB test in your schools your kid has to take the test because of the life threatening hazard they would pose to other kids if one kid has TB. I am not positive that they can actually legally force them to eat the sugar cube though.

[tommyp]

Originally Posted by HeySal

the most predominant, causing gender confusion, decreased penis size, etc is.........soy protein

Uh oh. So that's what it was

How can a person reverse it?

Damn that Gary Null

[seasoned]

Heysal,

If soy was REALLY as bad as you say, it would be known by almost EVERYONE, etc....

With penis size, for example, if there were a consistant reduction of 3/4"+, for example, I think it would make the news. I don't think soy became popular in the US, until after I was like in junior high, but some groups of people started SWEARING by it. They want to be VEGAN, but still realize that they NEED good protein, and use things like TOFU. The japanese have done this for a long time. And a LOT of proteins used by body builders when I was a kid were SOY! They STILL have SOY in some proteins, protein bars, etc....

For the record too, I am a bit OVER average here. I haven't had soy early on, but I HAVE taken a fair amount of soy lately. I don't notice any difference.

Soy DOES have some estrogens. It DOES limit DHT(though not enough for me, or apparently anyone else). I apparently IS a concern to bodybuilders. Still, I think you are overstating the problem.

steve

[seasoned]

BTW about the conspiracy nuts.... I have heard LOTS of "conspiracy theories". ONE even tied the famous cow mutilations to tests of a new laser that was later used to perform surgery. OK, is THAT true? Probably not. One spoke of how some governments are keeping UFO info SECRET? Is THAT true? Probably not. One speaks of the freeMasons taking over everything fro their own nefarious purposes! Is THAT true? Probably not. Some claimed that HIV was INTENTIONALLY made to control population. Is THAT true? Who knows...

One speaks of a secret organization called "the knights templar" possibly being tied to the freemasons. Is THAT true? YEP! It is FACT!

One speaks of a group of people that gathered to destroy the US economy, and overturn everything on its ears for THEIR profit. Even where they MET sounds like some kind of SICK JOKE!! Is THAT true? YEP! It is a FACT! It happened in 1910!

SOME say that the government PLANS various economic disasters, etc... I mean like a person paid by the US tax payer to talk to the US congress about hurting the US economy to cause US citizens to LOSE money! Is THAT true? YEP! It is a FACT!

Some say that there is a secret place that is ULTRA top secret where the US develops odd things, etc... People called them NUTS! They EVEN tried the STUPID arguement that "The government CAN'T KEEP A SECRET!!!!!! THOUSANDS would have to be in on it! Etc.... ". Can ANYONE tell me the OBVIOUS problem with that argument? YEP! They were speaking about it, and correct, but they CAN'T use that argument! YEP, the government COULDN'T keep it secret! Is THAT true? It is a FACT! OK, some DON'T call it "area 51". They call it GROOM LAKE. Montel Williams BRAGGED that he had TOP SECRET CLEARANCE, and could get in and PROVE everyone was lying. He ended up proving the OPPOSITE! People with GUNS ended up escorting him out of the area. Clinton even gave the area permission to run a secret toxic waste dump.

Some say there is a conspiracy to control various prices. There WERE such conspiracies. NOW, many have moved off shore.

Some say the US has staged wars, overthrown governments, etc... Is THAT true? Well, enough has been admitted to that WHO KNOWS about the rest!?!? Some ARE though.

Some say financiers, etc... have a conspiracy about getting power and money! The NAMES are different. The end purpose is different. The inception is different. etc.... Are any of THEM true? Well, some ARE! Did you see Glen Backs "Goldman Sachs bubble" demonstration? This ALSO ties to the 1910 episode.

Frankly, some of the SCARIEST stuff IS TRUE! It is PROVEN FACT! Some has even been admitted to by the main player. And GREENSPAN may give you double talk, and say that it was done to HELP the economy. The FACT is that he was given that power by the acts in 1910, and his talk to congress about basically STEALING money from the US [ublic in 1999 was TELEVISED when he was plotting it in front of CONGRESS! He WANTED the stock market to "correct"(read CRASH).

The FACT is that this is NOT a free market. We don't even REALLY have a currency. The dollar is BASICALLY, by description and function, a zero coupon bond. You could look at the fed funds rate as its interest rate, and everything FITS! Like any other zero coupon bond, it is worth what it is worth. If you hold it for a 5 years with the fed funds rate at 20%, it would STILL only be able to buy a dollar, but it MIGHT be able to buy twice as much gold. Of course, gold is subject to inflation also. The dollars value is NOT fixed to ANYTHING but the WHIM of the federal reserve, and the G7, which is ALSO run partially by the fed reserve. We USED to have an economy that was more free, and the currency was redeemable for silver or gold. A silver DOLLAR now generally costs $20+! A GOLD $50 piece cost over $500 when they started reminting them. NOW, they probably cost like $1200+
So how does it feel to be in an economy, where the value shifts SO much? I HOPE this isn't the first you have heard about the "NOTE" we call a dollar, the "fed reserve", the "g7", etc... and how they ALL interrelate! Talk about conspiarcy theories! I mean 7 governments, 2 of which were our ENEMIES in WWII, controlling the value of our "currency"!?!?!? RIDICULOUS, huh? IT'S TRUE! And the US is doing SO MANY STUPID things now that it is LUDICROUS that it could last a DAY as a nation!

If THAT isn't enough, how about how the fact that the US has basically SOLD itself to an enemy nation!?

So maybe you should listen more closely to all those conspiracy theories.

Steve

[Jeff Noel]

I don't think what you are talking about here Steve should even be considered conspiracy theories anymore. There is just so much evidence proving them to be real. The only thing that has to be done is to get the information out to the masses. One of the biggest fights is being pushed forward by Ron Paul to Audit the Fed. God bless his heart for pushing forward on this something like 7 trillion just disappeared someone should be held accountable.
There still are secret meetings being held by the elite I think it happens yearly. A couple years ago I was in Ottawa Ontario and one such meeting was being held. There were 1000's of protesters screaming and yelling. Apparently a large part of this group are international bankers and politicians (Apparently Hilary Clinton and Obama were involved. Sorry for the life of me I can't remember the name of the group. But I do remember seeing Alex Jones there with a bull horn. I think it's the Berger Group or something

[myob]

Originally Posted by Jeff Noel

...There still are secret meetings being held by the elite I think it happens yearly. A couple years ago I was in Ottawa Ontario and one such meeting was being held. There were 1000's of protesters screaming and yelling. Apparently a large part of this group are international bankers and politicians (Apparently Hilary Clinton and Obama were involved. Sorry for the life of me I can't remember the name of the group. But I do remember seeing Alex Jones there with a bull horn. I think it's the Berger Group or something

That group is actually called the Builderborgs. They have repeatedly said resistance is futile, and you will be assimilated. The Third of Five has warned all of us, "Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours."

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Jeff Noel

I don't think what you are talking about here Steve should even be considered conspiracy theories anymore. There is just so much evidence proving them to be real. The only thing that has to be done is to get the information out to the masses. One of the biggest fights is being pushed forward by Ron Paul to Audit the Fed. God bless his heart for pushing forward on this something like 7 trillion just disappeared someone should be held accountable.
There still are secret meetings being held by the elite I think it happens yearly. A couple years ago I was in Ottawa Ontario and one such meeting was being held. There were 1000's of protesters screaming and yelling. Apparently a large part of this group are international bankers and politicians (Apparently Hilary Clinton and Obama were involved. Sorry for the life of me I can't remember the name of the group. But I do remember seeing Alex Jones there with a bull horn. I think it's the Berger Group or something

That is my point! I mixed things that might STILL be considered conspiracy theories with ones that WERE, and are now PROVEN or where a just court would sentence the defendant to LIFE by daring to claim that it is only a "conspiracy theory" even in the weight of all the overwhelming evidence.

HECK, area 51 was once considered some ridiculous conspiracy, and the crazy UFO sightings were dismissed as ridiculous fantasies. NOW, they ADMIT that the area exists, and a lot of those UFO sightings have been proven to be things like the blackbird and the stealth bomber. There is ALSO the "myth" about a DESERT that has cameras covering everything with people that will escort you off "WITH LETAL FORCE IF NECESSARY"! And THAT has been proven ALSO! Montel Williams even publicised that! SUPPOSEDLY, he has top secret clearance, but NOT high enough!

Steve