College rape survivor will carry her mattress around campus until her rapist is expelled

10 years ago

Wow. 2 other dismissed cases too.

A lengthy spell at his Presidencies pleasure might be better for the chap in question, or is this another human rights gone bonkers moment?

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Wow. 2 other dismissed cases too.

A lengthy spell at his Presidencies pleasure might be better for the chap in question, or is this another human rights gone bonkers moment?

Not sure but rumors are that 1 in 5 women on college campuses in the U.S. will be assaulted.

It's way out of control.

What's going on where you're from?

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Richard Van

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Not sure but rumors are that 1 in 5 women on college campuses in the U.S. will be assaulted.

It's way out of control.

What's going on where you're from?

To be honest and I'm sure there have been rapes on college campuses and Universities I've no recollection of one off the top of my head. I certainly don't think it's anything like 1 in 5, that's terrible. I had no idea it was like that.

Mind you of course we have the authorities allowing the wholesale rape of children by a certain group for fear of upsetting them so it's no better in that sense.

It boggles the mind at times TL. Most of these times sadly.

Edit. Nope, seems I'm wrong on what it's like over here and this is a top University. 1 in 13 at a top Uni. Unbelievable.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nt-police.html

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

To be honest and I'm sure there have been rapes on college campuses and Universities I've no recollection of one off the top of my head. I certainly don't think it's anything like 1 in 5, that's terrible. I had no idea it was like that.

Mind you of course we have the authorities allowing the wholesale rape of children by a certain group for fear of upsetting them so it's no better in that sense.

It boggles the mind at times TL. Most of these times sadly.

Edit. Nope, seems I'm wrong on what it's like over here and this is a top University. 1 in 13 at a top Uni. Unbelievable.

Hundreds of female Cambridge students have been raped or sexually assaulted | Mail Online

Looks like young men are out of control all over the place.

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discrat

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Not sure but rumors are that 1 in 5 women on college campuses in the U.S. will be assaulted.

It's way out of control.

What's going on where you're from?

I do not think those statistics have changed the last 30 years or even longer than that. Stuff like this has been going on for years at Colleges in US.

But the way we processed it back in 1970s and 80s was much differently than today.

Back then guys would get slaps on the wrist. Maybe suspended for a few days for 'misconduct'. I saw this happen numerous times in 80s ( and early 90s

) when I was in College.

But now, rightfully so, we are wising up realizing the magnitude of what these perpetrators are doing.

And its not pretty at all.

A lot of these sexual assaults on woman scar them for the rest of their Life. Mentally and emotionally.

Its a travesty!

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

What's going on where you're from?

Originally Posted by discrat

I do not think those statistics have changed the last 30 years or even longer than that.

University of Iowa President Sally Mason was assaulted in the 70"s.

UI President Sally Mason Shares Personal Story...

University Of Iowa Makes It Clear Rapists Will Be Removed From Campus

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5785196.html

“The level of discretion in the new system is so great … that it’s difficult to take this model seriously,” said Jeannette Gabriel, a UI graduate student and member of ROAR Iowa City, a group organized against sexual harassment and violence.

University of Iowa debuts sex assault sanctioning guidelines - TheGazette

“We take sexual assaults very seriously,” Mason wrote in a campus-wide email Thursday morning. “There is no excuse for this crime. It has no place on this campus. We must continue to address this problem, and we must not rest until it is eliminated entirely.”

Protest planned after recent University of Iowa sexual assault reports | KCRG-TV9 | Cedar Rapids, Iowa News, Sports, and Weather

Reports and warnings of sexual violence at the University of Iowa and in the community are up this academic year, and some students and alumni are demanding the university improve its response.

Through a series of ongoing protests and online petitions that began Sunday and continued Monday on the Pentacrest, dozens of UI undergraduates, graduate students, alumni and community members are asking – among other things – the UI to adopt a “zero tolerance attitude and policy.”

University of Iowa students protest, say sexual violence is 'not in my nature' - TheGazette

Last month, President Barack Obama announced a new task force on college sex assault, citing statistics showing that 1 in 5 females are assaulted while in college but only 1 in 8 report attacks. The White House called it a public health epidemic.

University Of Iowa President Criticized Over Sex Assault Remark, But Reveals Personal Experience

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Kay King 10 years ago

On that top link - in the photo I think the guy's face says it all
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Alexa Smith

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Not sure but rumors are that 1 in 5 women on college campuses in the U.S. will be assaulted.

I suspect that those "assaults" probably include elderly professors brushing you lightly on the leg, and countless minor things which in my mother's day at university would probably not really have been thought of as "assault" at all. Obviously I'm not defending them, but "assault" is a very broad term. Call me naive, but I don't imagine that anything like 1 in 5 women, or anything of the kind, are victims of rapes in US colleges?

To be honest, this girl carrying her mattress around with her, whether it's "performance art" or a protest, doesn't instinctively endear her to me, but as they say "It takes all sorts", and I say that with no implication of denigrating her allegation.

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

What's going on where you're from?

All colleges and universities here have established and recognized formal procedures in place regarding the investigation of all allegations of sexual impropriety all the way from mere allegations of inappropriate comments to actual rape allegations. They absolutely have to - just like they have to notify the police. They can't afford any possible suggestion of a "cover-up" at all. It's all taken extremely seriously.

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

I doubt the numbers are any different than any other time in history. I think we've just changed the definition.

This. Exactly.

(I didn't think I'd post in this thread, but there you go ...

).

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I suspect that those "assaults" probably include elderly professors brushing you lightly on the leg, and countless minor things which in my mother's day at university would probably not really have been thought of as "assault" at all. Obviously I'm not defending them, but "assault" is a very broad term. Call me naive, but I don't imagine that anything like 1 in 5 women, or anything of the kind, are victims of rapes in US colleges?

Yep, or two kids drinking and hooking up. One regret and all of the sudden they were raped.

If you read what had happened, the girl in the article and the guy was having consensual sex prior and during this incident. He apparently got too rough during the last incident and she decided it was rape.

If you see her video, she talks about it as just some school project.

Anyway, expect more guys being kicked out of school in California. There is a new law stating both parties must verbally agree to sex. If for any minute, the girl decides against it, it is rape. The decision that she didn't want sex can be non-verbal and made after the consensual sex has happened. That means if she decides a week later she didn't want to have sex the guy raped her. Make sense?

This is out of control. The sad part is these false cries of rape only make it harder for real rape victims.

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Kay King 10 years ago

I think the definition has expanded to includes almost anything they want to include while at the same time there is outrage and anger if you point to a "victim" perhaps being in part responsible.

Buena Vista Virginia | Welcome

On the link above I was surprised at the red building with balconies in the photo - that's where I lived when in college. At the time it was a private college for women though it has since closed and I'm not sure what the campus is now.

Within 10 miles we had VMI and Washington and Lee Law School. Major party time - military balls, frat parties every weekend, hikes and campouts in the mountains. We drank - but not to the point of stupid. I had two roommates and we watched out for each other.

My Granddaughter graduated a little over a year ago from college in Ohio - she knew of two women who filed rape charges. In both cases (she said) they were in frat houses, drunk and willingly participating in some wild behavior.

The problem with being P.C. is there are women who are raped viciously and they can get lost in a system where "regret" can lead to rape accusations.

I think the public - and parents - and the law - need to draw lines between what is a vicious sexual crime (rape) and what is a mistake in judgment that takes on a life of its own a day later.

A woman argued with my view of this. According to her: it doesn't matter if a woman wears revealing clothing, gets dead drunk and ends up in bed with her clothes off....at any point if she says "no" or means to "say no"....the man has to stop immediately.

I have a little () experience with men and my impression is there is a point in the proceedings when men lose their hearing. It's wise to plan for that by not going that far.
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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I suspect that those "assaults" probably include elderly professors brushing you lightly on the leg, and countless minor things which in my mother's day at university would probably not really have been thought of as "assault" at all. Obviously I'm not defending them, but "assault" is a very broad term. Call me naive, but I don't imagine that anything like 1 in 5 women, or anything of the kind, are victims of rapes in US colleges?

To be honest, this girl carrying her mattress around with her, whether it's "performance art" or a protest, doesn't instinctively endear her to me, but as they say "It takes all sorts", and I say that with no implication of denigrating her allegation.

All colleges and universities here have established and recognized formal procedures in place regarding the investigation of all allegations of sexual impropriety all the way from mere allegations of inappropriate comments to actual rape allegations. They absolutely have to - just like they have to notify the police. They can't afford any possible suggestion of a "cover-up" at all. It's all taken extremely seriously.

This. Exactly.

(I didn't think I'd post in this thread, but there you go ...

).

These folks say this...

Between 20% and 25% of women will experience a completed and/or attempted rape during their college career.

Sexual Assault Statistics - Campus Safety

But who can you trust and how could it possibly be that bad?

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I suspect that those "assaults" probably include elderly professors brushing you lightly on the leg, and countless minor things which in my mother's day at university would probably not really have been thought of as "assault" at all. Obviously I'm not defending them, but "assault" is a very broad term. Call me naive, but I don't imagine that anything like 1 in 5 women, or anything of the kind, are victims of rapes in US colleges?

To be honest, this girl carrying her mattress around with her, whether it's "performance art" or a protest, doesn't instinctively endear her to me, but as they say "It takes all sorts", and I say that with no implication of denigrating her allegation.

All colleges and universities here have established and recognized formal procedures in place regarding the investigation of all allegations of sexual impropriety all the way from mere allegations of inappropriate comments to actual rape allegations. They absolutely have to - just like they have to notify the police. They can't afford any possible suggestion of a "cover-up" at all. It's all taken extremely seriously.

This. Exactly.

(I didn't think I'd post in this thread, but there you go ...

).

You'd be surprised. While I think this woman's mattress stunt is just complete stupidity - the problem of rape on campus is a huge problem. When I worked at the crisis center one of the main problems was that in the crime of rape, the tendency was to blame the victim. She shouldn't have been there, she shouldn't have been wearing that, etc and so on. One woman lost a rape case with full proof, because she was out in the middle of the night without a bra on (she was on her way to a friend who called with a crisis she needed help with and was raped when her car broke down).

Anyhow - the stats show 1 in 4 women is molested or raped by the time they are 18 in the US. You have high numbers of women at college, and you draw the 3% of the rapists that are purely perverts along with the others who use rape as a power tool against campus women who happen to be the independent women that these men seek to degrade and ruin. Makes sense to me the crime is high on campuses.

I was approached once on campus. It was just after I got elected as the write-in vote for Chief Justice of the Student Gov, so I presume he might have had a voova over it. I had just been assigned two assignments I really didn't have time to finish and was in one terrible mood. I got to the lower level of the parking complex and a guy stepped out from behind a pillar so he was standing where I could neither get back to the stairs or to my car and stood there grinning playing with his pants zipper. I was furious. I slammed my books on the ground and told him "Okay, ****$^*@#($&, lets go for it" and took a stance to help with my balance. He was caught off guard and didn't know what to do. I took two steps at him before he turned and fled. LMAO. The campus police couldn't track him down. Also had a stalker from that campus following me home for awhile. That resulted in my story (I think you've heard it so will refrain from the telling) about how I use electric for protection. LMAO.

Keep in mind here - that on campuses this type of rape attempt is not the usual. Most are in the form of date rape or getting a woman so drunk or high she doesn't know what's going on until later. Rape is a hard crime to prove in any case because there are usually no witnesses unless the criminal is stupid. It's even harder to prove when it's a case that the woman may have been willing at the time but decides to be vindictive for some reason later (and, yes, that happens, too).

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

You'd be surprised. While I think this woman's mattress stunt is just complete stupidity <snip>

I'd call it far from stupidity. I'd characterize it as brilliant. It was brilliant because it was highly effective. It brought national news attention to her plight and the wider issue of sexual assaults on campus and that someone taking sex that starts as consensual to segue into something that the partner opposes whether it is anal sex, sadism, or whatever is, indeed, rape. Often, when a perp has a sadistic fetish, more than one victim emerges to reveal similar experiences. Thus, my initial response would be to believe her. I also suspect that if he'd tried his sadistic stunt on woman well-versed in bjj, he'd have a broken arm or a broken neck and rightly so. It would be an entirely different kind of court case.

(I once witnessed what my sister who's trained in karate and judo did to a dude who tried to take advantage of her. He was writhing on the ground in pain.)

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I'd call it far from stupidity. I'd characterize it as brilliant. It was brilliant because it was highly effective. It brought national news attention to her plight and the wider issue of sexual assaults on campus and that someone taking sex that starts as consensual to segue into something that the partner opposes whether it is anal sex, sadism, or whatever is, indeed, rape. Often, when a perp has a sadistic fetish, more than one victim emerges to reveal similar experiences. Thus, my initial response would be to believe her. I also suspect that if he'd tried his sadistic stunt on woman well-versed in bjj, he'd have a broken arm or a broken neck and rightly so. It would be an entirely different kind of court case.

(I once witnessed what my sister who's trained in karate and judo did to a dude who tried to take advantage of her. He was writhing on the ground in pain.)

She would have been better off going to the police after the incident. If she got roughed up, there should have been plenty of evidence that could have put the guy away instead of letting him get away with it.

I think martial arts are great for many reasons, not just protection.

The martial arts subject reminded me of a story my sister, who happens to be a lawyer, told me. She was familiar with another lawyer who happened to train in Taekwondo. Apparently, this lawyer had a competition over the weekend and was bruised up from that.

One of those abuse counselors that sometimes work out of the court house approached her to try and help her. The counselor must have noticed the bruises. Even after the lawyer explained it wasn't from an abusive relationship or a man but from competing the counselor still wouldn't listen and kept telling the woman she had heard all the excuses before and needed help.

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

She would have been better off going to the police after the incident. If she got roughed up, there should have been plenty of evidence that could have put the guy away instead of letting him get away with it.<snip>

No. She would have been better off if she'd roughed him up instead the moment he tried to abuse her.

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

One of those abuse counselors that sometimes work out of the court house approached her to try and help her. The counselor must have noticed the bruises. Even after the lawyer explained it wasn't from an abusive relationship or a man but from competing the counselor still wouldn't listen and kept telling the woman she had heard all the excuses before and needed help.

I hate that feeling though. Seeing someone - usually a woman - with bruises and not knowing if you should believe their story or not.

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Tom B Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

I hate that feeling though. Seeing someone - usually a woman - with bruises and not knowing if you should believe their story or not.

I hear you. I like to think the majority of people are good and want to help those in need.

The one thing I found out, through a lot of painful experiences, is that you can't help someone who isn't ready or doesn't want help. You will be spinning your wheels in frustration.

With that said, I used to automatically believe stories of abuse and rape. I mean, why would anyone lie about something as terrible as that? Well, now, I hate the feeling of questioning someone's motives when they do say they were abused or raped.

Sadly, people do crazy stuff for crazy reasons. I remember reading about this one woman who kept making her kid sick because she was getting sympathy on facebook. Truly unbelievable.

I just wonder if the world has always been crazy and I just didn't see it.
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- Cali16 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap
  
  I remember reading about this one woman who kept making her kid sick because she was getting sympathy on facebook. Truly unbelievable.
  
  There's actually a clinical term for that - Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome. Usually, the person is seeking attention or sympathy from healthcare professionals, but what you describe is essentially the same thing.
  
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irishmoe

10 years ago

That Rotherham story has ruined my already tainted opinion of society.

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Dan Riffle

10 years ago

I doubt the numbers are any different than any other time in history. I think we've just changed the definition.

Young men + young women + confined spaces + alcohol = problems.

From what I remember of college, if you can remove the alcohol issue, you can eliminate the vast majority of these crimes.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

This is the report Obama cited earlier in the year when he stated 1 in 5 women have been sexually assaulted during their time at college. At the time he was announcing the White House Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...rt_1-21-14.pdf

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-don

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Many do say the true numbers are difficult to ascertain.

The best evidence that this ambiguity exists is that many of the women classified by researchers as having experienced rape or sexual assault do not consider this to have been their experience.The NIJ study found that more than 60 percent of women who were victims of incapacitated rape did not think they had been raped, which reflects the difficulty of determining what constitutes consent in drunken sex, even for the people involved. Such studies consistently find this discrepancy between women’s self-reported attitudes and how researchers classify their responses.

To understand how this works, consider another study to which the president’s report points, finding that 20 percent of women are raped in their lifetimes. In its definition of rape, the CDC’s “National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence” survey includes sex that occurred when the victim was drunk or high, regardless of whether she was incapacitated or unable to give consent. Participants were asked to respond to the question: “When you were drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to give consent, how many people ever had vaginal sex with you?” A woman could list instances of consensual sex she had while intoxicated that she did not consider to be rape — that were in fact not rape — and the researchers would nonetheless classify her as a rape victim.

Twisting Sexual-Assault Statistics | National Review Online

.
The 2010 CDC's NISVS summary report is here:

http://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventio...port2010-a.pdf

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

'Mad Men' Star Joins Obama's Campaign Against Campus Sexual Assault

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socialentry

Banned 10 years ago

Nice. Now she can take a nap anywhere on campus.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by socialentry

Nice. Now she can take a nap anywhere on campus.

My absolutely first reaction to seeing the picture of the girl carrying the mattress was " Now, that girl is making a statement. The statement is "You are never going to catch ME without a mattress".

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Kay King

10 years ago

Seriously, schools are not going to take rape seriously until WOMEN take it seriously.

That means that if the women don't go to the police themselves, which they rarely do, the university winds up serving as both judge and jury -- and the public never knows the outcome.

You are raped and don't go to the police? Why not? If you were violated, attacked, raped....why did you NOT report it to authorities?

The three women who told The Post they were attacked by the athlete said they were never encouraged by the school to go to cops.

Why would they need to be told to report it to police?

I think there's a simple solution to much of this - schools/colleges/universities should be required by LAW to report any allegation of rape to the local police. Schools are filled with educators - not adjudicators.

Rape on campus would be taken seriously if all incidents were legal cases - and false reports would be diminished as they'd result in public censure.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

When I lived off 42nd St. in NYC, years ago, there were lots of women that walked around carrying mattresses. The only difference was they were wearing hot pants and carried a sign that read, "Curb Service."

C'mon. It's just a joke!

Cheers. - Frank

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

When I lived off 42nd St. in NYC, years ago, there were lots of women that walked around carrying mattresses. The only difference was they were wearing hot pants and carried a sign that read, "Curb Service."

C'mon. It's just a joke!

Cheers. - Frank

The second thing I thought of when I saw the picture of her carrying her mattress was "I bet she sure is glad she doesn't have a waterbed."

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Tom B Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

"I bet she sure is glad she doesn't have a waterbed."

Even worst, a sofa sleeper. Now that would be fun to watch.
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- seasoned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap
  
  Even worst, a sofa sleeper. Now that would be fun to watch.
  
  Well, a water bed would be even HEAVIER, than a regular mattress, if filled and maybe if not. It is bulkier, either way. It could leak, leaving her with a HUGE BILL that could be in the multiple millions of dollars.
  
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seasoned

10 years ago

First of all, how can ANYONE think that "[young] men are out of control[read ARE RAPISTS]"? It is ridiculous for a WOMAN to think that, HOW could a MALE!?!?!? College campuses are probably a GREAT place for rapists, because there are so many women there, they don't care about security, and they don't have protection!! SERIOUSLY, if I had that mindset, that would be my FIRST choice! ALSO, a number of women cry wolf, or use it as an excuse.

Approximately HALF the non Chinese world is MALE! MOST have a lot of reasons why they would NEVER rape! The PROBLEM is that courts are HAPPY to let people go, and rapists will rape MANY times, and they seem more plentiful than they are. If even 20% of the male population were rapists, the WORLD would probably try something like one of the religions is trying to limit that.

As for carrying that bed? I doubt she COULD do it, never mind that she IS doing it. It is IDIOTIC! It makes her PRIME rape material! LIMITED VIEW! LIMITED ABILITY to fight back. LIMITED ABILITY to run away. She probably clears a path. She actually BRINGS the bed? GREAT for a rapist with a bad back!

And HOW does she bring it to class, or the cafeteria, or the restroom, without a great disruption?

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Hopefully this new initiative along with the new social media world we live in will cut down the number of incidences and one day make it a rare occurrence on the campuses of this country.

BTW...

And the U.S. Department of Education for the first time publicly exposed the list of colleges under federal investigation for their handling of sexual assault complaints.

Also...

I think legislation should be passed that forces schools to report incidents to the local police, the states and the feds.

What is rape?

IMHO after talking to a few females I believe its the following..

1: Any type of sexual activity that does not have the consent of one of the parties involved:

The absence of a no does not mean yes.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Hopefully this new initiative along with the new social media world we live in will cut down the number of incidences and one day make it a rare occurrence on the campuses of this country.

BTW...

And the U.S. Department of Education for the first time publicly exposed the list of colleges under federal investigation for their handling of sexual assault complaints.

Also...

I think legislation should be passed that forces schools to report incidents to the local police, the states and the feds.

What is rape?

IMHO after talking to a few females I believe its the following..

1: Any type of sexual activity that does not have the consent of one of the parties involved:

The absence of a no does not mean yes.

Unfortunately YES, YES YES! LET'S GET MARRIED ALSO! Doesn't either! The "feminist" definition of rape is any sexual activity with a woman that has not consented and not regretted!

I actually, for once, like YOUR definition, as long as that is as far as it goes, and you can prove it. MOST say the woman can back out at any time prior. Feminists say she can even kind of back out retroactively. But EITHER definition doesn't even leave room for a written declaration, history, or anything short of like a taping from start to finish.

Steve

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Kay King

10 years ago

The absence of a no does not mean yes.

I've heard that from women - and I think it's a crock.

I know it's not a popular view - but I think women have to respect themselves as much as they demand men respect them. Maybe young men on campus need to carry permission slips and get a signature first?

If you are too drunk to say no - and he is too drunk to say no from his perspective....maybe you should BOTH be charged with rape and both go on the sex offender registry.

Or perhaps we need to have more "levels" in the law such as "non-consensual sex" rather than label everything 'rape'.

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I've heard that from women - and I think it's a crock.

I know it's not a popular view - but I think women have to respect themselves as much as they demand men respect them. Maybe young men on campus need to carry permission slips and get a signature first?

If you are too drunk to say no - and he is too drunk to say no from his perspective....maybe you should BOTH be charged with rape and both go on the sex offender registry.

Or perhaps we need to have more "levels" in the law such as "non-consensual sex" rather than label everything 'rape'.

And I'm sure the females I talked to would say that what you've said is a crock also and...

.. your response sounds like something a man would say while making excuses for any type of non consensual encounter.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

And I'm sure the females I talked to would say that what you've said is a crock also and...

.. your response sounds like something a man would say while making excuses for any type of non consensual encounter.

She sounds like a reasonable woman to me! The problem is, and EVERYONE HERE KNOWS IT, that the woman is given TOO MUCH POWER! If she says it was rape, and the man can't prove it wasn't, IT'S RAPE!

I'm NOT saying that rapists should get off! NO WAY! I am just saying there should be more than a mere accusation. I like the permission slip idea, but what about marriages? Privacy? Changing ones mind,etc...? The simplest things are the ones that confound.

S..... hurts females abilities and welfare(I am talking GENERAL welfare here!), and is just $%^&! It ALSO gives MEN too much power!

US Law gives WOMEN too much power.

How do we strike a balance. Admittedly, the US is better all around, but the comparison drives the point home.

Steve

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Claude Whitacre 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

I'm NOT saying that rapists should get off!

Steve; To be fair, isn't that the whole point?
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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Maybe young men on campus need to carry permission slips and get a signature first?

Someone needs to create an app for that!

Cheers. - Frank
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

The absence of a no does not mean yes.

Really? Have you ever had sex? Did you ask permission? Where did that enter the conversation?

Every time I wanted to have sex with a girl, one of two things happened;
1) We had sex
or
2) She either told me "No", in one of a hundred ways, or indicated with body language that she wasn't interested.

But is there a man here that ever, in their life said "Would you like to have sex with me? You have to say 'Yes', or the deal is off"?

Unless the guy is a mindless brute, a girl can say "No" at any time, or in hundreds of ways. We all know the signals. Every girl knows how to say "No", and every guy recognizes when the girl is saying "No".

There aren't more sexual attacks. We have just changed the definition so much, that anything besides a signed contract, giving permission, can be called an assault.

I'm so glad that I'm an old married guy, and don't have to deal with it.

And having sex when drinking? Good luck stopping that.

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Any type of sexual activity that does not have the consent of one of the parties involved:

I get that, and agree. If the girl is passed out, or incapacitated, to me...that's rape.

But no guy is going to ask for consent. It simply won't enter the conversation. Consent is obvious...and not giving consent is obvious too.

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WalkingCarpet

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Really? Have you ever had sex? Did you ask permission? Where did that enter the conversation?

Every time I wanted to have sex with a girl, one of two things happened;
1) We had sex
or
2) She either told me "No", in one of a hundred ways, or indicated with body language that she wasn't interested.

But is there a man here that ever, in their life said "Would you like to have sex with me? You have to say 'Yes', or the deal is off"?

Unless the guy is a mindless brute, a girl can say "No" at any time, or in hundreds of ways. We all know the signals. Every girl knows how to say "No", and every guy recognizes when the girl is saying "No".

There aren't more sexual attacks. We have just changed the definition so much, that anything besides a signed contract, giving permission, can be called an assault.

I'm so glad that I'm an old married guy, and don't have to deal with it.

And having sex when drinking? Good luck stopping that.

I get that, and agree. If the girl is passed out, or incapacitated, to me...that's rape.

But no guy is going to ask for consent. It simply won't enter the conversation. Consent is obvious...and not giving consent is obvious too.

Was it blind a date? Keyword being 'Blind'.

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Kay King

10 years ago

I want an answer to this question.

Here's what I KNOW. Rape is violent...it's not 'sex' or 'making love' - it's a vicious attack.

Gee, how would I know that????

Of course it's wrong to take advantage of an unconscious person - in any way. But it's stupid to put yourself in that position as a woman and someone needs to say so.

Women are often seen as victims because they were "too drunk to say no" or "consented only because they were drunk". Why is it the man doesn't get the same excuse? What if a man proceeds because he's too drunk to stop himself? What if a drunk man thinks a woman in his bed who hasn't said no means 'yes'?

It's not a black and white issue and never will be. Carrying mattress to protest being raped is stupid when you didn't report the rape to police in the first place.

I think the part the schools should play is in monitoring campus behavior - encouraging students to partner up (many schools do this), start programs to have a sober friends in your group at parties just like you have designated drivers.

Woman should be required to report rape to police when it happens. If they go to school authorities - schools should be required to call police immediately. Women don't report to police because they don't want their own behavior made public. That's wrong - and it's not fair to the men they are charging.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Women are often seen as victims because they were "too drunk to say no" or "consented only because they were drunk".

Indeed.

There are problems there, it seems to me, however you look at it.

One of the problems is that if a woman is "too drunk to say no" then it's very easy to suggest in court (partly because it will often be true) that she was also too drunk to be a reliable witness some time later about exactly what happened, and especially in cases in which "her word" is the otherwise uncorroborated evidence. Over here, judges feel (and you can't criticize them for it) that it isn't really possible for an objective jury to convict "beyond all reasonable doubt", in these circumstances, and for that reason they tend either not to be prosecuted, or, if prosecuted, to result in acquittals when the judge points this out to the jury in his/her summing up at the end of the case. I read an interesting article about this, written by a recently retired judge (female) only the other day. It made the point that "questionable memory" and "beyond all reasonable doubt" are not mutually compatible concepts. I can't find it, now.

Originally Posted by Kay King

Carrying mattress to protest being raped is stupid when you didn't report the rape to police in the first place.

Exactly so.

Originally Posted by Kay King

If they go to school authorities - schools should be required to call police immediately.

As far as I know, they are, here: I think they're absolutely required to do that, and that the adverse publicity for them would be overwhelming, if it turned out later that they hadn't.

.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Indeed.

There are problems there, it seems to me, however you look at it.

One of the problems is that if a woman is "too drunk to say no" then it's very easy to suggest in court (partly because it will often be true) that she was also too drunk to be a reliable witness some time later about exactly what happened, and especially in cases in which "her word" is the otherwise uncorroborated evidence. Over here, judges feel (and you can't criticize them for it) that it isn't really possible for an objective jury to convict "beyond all reasonable doubt", in these circumstances, and for that reason they tend either not to be prosecuted, or, if prosecuted, to result in acquittals when the judge points this out to the jury in his/her summing up at the end of the case. I read an interesting article about this, written by a recently retired judge (female) only the other day. It made the point that "questionable memory" and "beyond all reasonable doubt" are not mutually compatible concepts. I can't find it, now.

Exactly so.

As far as I know, they are, here: I think they're absolutely required to do that, and that the adverse publicity for them would be overwhelming, if it turned out later that they hadn't.

.

Good point! A woman isn't too likely to take exotic drugs like the date rape kind, so courts assume the one that had sex gave it to her and consider it rape. Doing that for drinks would be effectively bringing back prohibition! And the drink can affect both sides and either side may honestly believe what they want, and certainly will say that. Neither could be considered valid.

Steve

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Kay King

10 years ago

There appears to be much more to this particular story. The charges were dismissed so she can carry a mattress for a year and it's unlikely the "perp" will be kicked out of school.

This is one of those stories that you stand back and go "huh"?

Frustrated by Columbia

She went to the police in May 2014 to report a rape that happened in August 2012? The man she charged with rape was a man she had consensual sex with on two prior occasions.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

There appears to be much more to this particular story. The charges were dismissed so she can carry a mattress for a year and it's unlikely the "perp" will be kicked out of school.

This is one of those stories that you stand back and go "huh"?

She went to the police in May 2014 to report a rape that happened in August 2012? The man she charged with rape was a man she had consensual sex with on two prior occasions.

What makes me stand back and go huh is that 3 women reported sexual assault by the same person and nothing was done.

Emma Sulkowicz has vowed to carry a dorm room mattress with her everywhere on campus until her rapist is expelled or leaves campus on his own. Sulkowicz says she was raped in her own dorm room in August of 2012.

That was only the beginning. After she reported her assault to Columbia, she appeared before a disciplinary panel where she was forced to explain to a university official how the painful manner in which she had been raped was physically possible. Then the panel found her accused assailant not responsible.

Two other students also came forward and filed complaints against the same person, accusing him of sexual violence. In one case, the alleged assailant was found responsible, but the charge was ultimately dismissed after he filed an appeal with the dean of his college. The dean convened a whole new hearing, which did not involve the survivor at all, because she had graduated. In the second case, the university denied the woman a hearing, citing a lack of evidence.

Is it really any wonder that rape is underreported by victims when they are further humiliated and victimized by those receiving the reports.

When does having a prior relationship with someone constitute a lifetime "yes?"
When does being drunk, drugged or unconscious mean it's ok to have sex with you?
When does the inability to say No mean well, hell yes. Let's get it on?

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

What makes me stand back and go huh is that 3 women reported sexual assault by the same person and nothing was done.

Is it really any wonder that rape is underreported by victims when they are further humiliated and victimized by those receiving the reports.

When does having a prior relationship with someone constitute a lifetime "yes?"
When does being drunk, drugged or unconscious mean it's ok to have sex with you?
When does the inability to say No mean well, hell yes. Let's get it on?

Still, she was having consensual sex with the guy. He did something that she later decided she didn't like. At the time, she didn't say no nor did she say stop.

It does make you wonder when the guy was reported several times, but if they are similar to what this woman did there is a very big problem going on.

False rape accusations: Why must we pretend they never happen?

Being drunk isn't the same as being drugged and/or unconscious. Drinking three or four beers will make you legally drunk.

As for being victimized, what about the guys? She was going around with flyers naming the dude all around campus. If you look at her video, she talks about it in a nonchalant manner as if it's just another project. I have dealt with a family member who was raped and nonchalant isn't a reaction that I would ascribe to being raped.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Still, she was having consensual sex with the guy. He did something that she later decided she didn't like. At the time, she didn't say no nor did she say stop.

I'll say he did something she didn't agree to. Choking and anal sex

In an interview last week, she said she had been assaulted at the beginning of her sophomore year in 2012. The accused, as is often the case in college, was someone she considered a friend, a man with whom she had had consensual sex twice the previous school year.

They went to her room. She said she had not been drinking. They started to have sex, she said, but then he began to choke her, slapped her face, pinned her arms and penetrated her anally. She said she had screamed for him to stop, but that he would not.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

It does make you wonder when the guy was reported several times, but if they are similar to what this woman did there is a very big problem going on.

False rape accusations: Why must we pretend they never happen?

I'm sure they do happen, but I doubt that 3 women are lying about this particular guy.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Being drunk isn't the same as being drugged and/or unconscious. Drinking three or four beers will make you legally drunk.

I think most men can pretty much tell when a woman is out of it, as in beyond the point of coherence. What kind of moron takes that as a signal that it's time to get laid?

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

As for being victimized, what about the guys? She was going around with flyers naming the dude all around campus. If you look at her video, she talks about it in a nonchalant manner as if it's just another project. I have dealt with a family member who was raped and nonchalant isn't a reaction that I would ascribe to being raped.

Don't know about this particular girl, but the comments in this thread are disturbing to me. The implication that getting drunk means getting raped is her fault and the implication that a prior relationship means that it's ok to have sex with her because you have in the past are troublesome. It brings to mind the ridiculous "legitimate rape" comment from a former Congressman.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I'll say he did something she didn't agree to. Choking and anal sex

She should have said stop then, correct?

I'm sure they do happen, but I doubt that 3 women are lying about this particular guy.

Hard to say. Most Universities take this rather serious. They will even suspend the guy without proof. What I do know is you are calling this guy a rapist based on accusations alone.

I think most men can pretty much tell when a woman is out of it, as in beyond the point of coherence. What kind of moron takes that as a signal that it's time to get laid?

Exactly. A woman is into it and decides the next day it was a mistake is not rape even if she calls it that.

Don't know about this particular girl, but the comments in this thread are disturbing to me. The implication that getting drunk means getting raped is her fault and the implication that a prior relationship means that it's ok to have sex with her because you have in the past are troublesome. It brings to mind the ridiculous "legitimate rape" comment from a former Congressman.

That kind of comment allows the false rape accusations to flourish. I can post more news articles of this type of behavior as well.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...cuser-20140721

No matter what, the guy is going to go through a lot of shit just because he was accused.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

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MissTerraK

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

So someone who is incapable of making an informed decision, as in falling down, shit faced drunk is what you consider to be "someone who is into it"? I sure don't ... not even if it were Johnny Depp, spread eagle on my bed, which I've had many dreams about.

Haha! Okay, that was funny Suzanne!

I just love pop up humor in the middle of an intense debate.

Terra

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

According to the NYTimes article, she did

If that is the truth, she would have been raped.

Sorry, I don't buy it, though, based on her videos. Like I said, I have dealt with a person who was raped and they simply cannot talk about it in a nonchalant manner like this woman.

I think many rape victims will disagree that most Universities take it seriously or will even act upon it. That's certainly not what I'm reading.

We will have to disagree. I don't automatically believe someone when they say they were raped anymore. Too many false accusations and there are plenty of articles detailing them.

Luckily some of these women are starting to serve jail time.

So someone who is incapable of making an informed decision, as in falling down, shit faced drunk is what you consider to be "someone who is into it"? I sure don't ... not even if it were Johnny Depp, spread eagle on my bed, which I've had many dreams about.

Suzanne, you're taking being drunk to the extreme here. You can have 3 or 4 beers and be drunk yet be able to make decisions and even walk straight. It isn't a black and white thing here, but yeah, if she is falling down drunk she can't make an informed decision. I don't know why anyone would want to have sex with someone in that particular state anyway.

I see nothing troublesome about that comment and nothing that indicates that false accusations are ok, but if you do, you have a completely different understanding of consent than I do.

The troublesome thing I referred to was assuming the guy is guilty based on an accusation.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

The troublesome thing I referred to was assuming the guy is guilty based on an accusation.

No, based on 3 accusations, actually. Of course, there's always the possibility that the women at C University are a bunch of lying hoes or at least 3 of them.

As for the nonchalant remark, I've seen many women who were past the trauma stage of rape talk about it calmly and intelligently. Would that be nonchalant?

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

No, based on 3 accusations, actually. Of course, there's always the possibility that the women at C University are a bunch of lying hoes or at least 3 of them.

Like I said, accusations. According to many, if you are buzzed at all you were raped. This is the predominant message being broadcast all over campuses and news outlets.

I don't know if the guy is a rapist or not but I sure do know hooking up when buzzed was very common back on my ole college days. Now, there would have been a good chance I could have been accused of rape based on how rape is perceived nowadays.

As for the nonchalant remark, I've seen many women who were past the trauma stage of rape talk about it calmly and intelligently. Would that be nonchalant?

You mean they try to get attention for being raped on the news and doing projects for classes based on them being raped?

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Like I said, accusations. According to many, if you are buzzed at all you were raped. This is the predominant message being broadcast all over campuses and news outlets.

I don't know if the guy is a rapist or not but I sure do know hooking up when buzzed was very common back on my ole college days. Now, there would have been a good chance I could have been accused of rape based on how rape is perceived nowadays.

Sorry, but the way I perceive rape is sex without consent, including sex with girls too wasted to consent and girls that you previously had sex with but no longer wants to have sex with you.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

You mean they try to get attention for being raped on the news and doing projects for classes based on them being raped?

Yeah ... god forbid they put a spotlight on rape.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Sorry, but the way I perceive rape is sex without consent, including sex with girls too wasted to consent and girls that you previously had sex with but no longer wants to have sex with you.

Unfortunately, many women don't think the same way.

Woman jailed for falsely claiming rape has history of lying to police

Sydney woman gets 15 days in Thai jail Australian visitor jailed in Thailand over false rape report ...

Yeah ... god forbid they put a spotlight on rape.

Yeah, sure, she is doing God's work.

Like this woman who claimed she was raped.

http://flavorwire.com/467845/the-sad...pe-accusations

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Kay King

10 years ago

He may have raped three women - but it seems NONE of those three filed charges of any kind when it happened to them. Only after a year or two did they compare notes, decide it was rape - and file complaints.

I didn't see this woman referred to as drunk. In one interview she was quoted as saying she and the man "began to have sex" but he got rougher than usual and she changed her mind but he didn't stop.

This man may be a serial rapist - but you can't convict someone two years after an incident that was not reported. If the three women had each reported HER claim at the time - and didn't know each other...it could be a different story. Now it's only a story they have discussed among themselves and there is no evidence.

No police report but now the women are part of a federal lawsuit against the school...is there money involved?

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

He may have raped three women - but it seems NONE of those three filed charges of any kind when it happened to them. Only after a year or two did they compare notes, decide it was rape - and file complaints.

I didn't see this woman referred to as drunk. In one interview she was quoted as saying she and the man "began to have sex" but he got rougher than usual and she changed her mind but he didn't stop.

To be exact, he slapped her, pinned her down and had anal sex with her. She screamed for him to stop and he wouldn't. She had not been drinking.

Originally Posted by Kay King

This man may be a serial rapist - but you can't convict someone two years after an incident that was not reported. If the three women had each reported HER claim at the time - and didn't know each other...it could be a different story. Now it's only a story they have discussed among themselves and there is no evidence.

No police report but now the women are part of a federal lawsuit against the school...is there money involved?

He was actually found responsible by the University of the second charge. They didn't allow one of them a hearing at all.

Two other students also came forward and filed complaints against the same person, accusing him of sexual violence. In one case, the alleged assailant was found responsible, but the charge was ultimately dismissed after he filed an appeal with the dean of his college. The dean convened a whole new hearing, which did not involve the survivor at all, because she had graduated. In the second case, the university denied the woman a hearing, citing a lack of evidence.

As for money for the federal complaint:

If Columbia is found in violation of the Clery Act, it will have to pay $35,000 per violation. If it is found in violation of Title IX and Title II, it will be subject to federal review and could lose federal funding.

@Thomas
The United States Justice Department says false accusations of rape "are estimated to occur at the rate of two percent -- similar to the rate of false accusations for other violent crimes."

Compared to:

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

@Thomas
The United States Justice Department says false accusations of rape "are estimated to occur at the rate of two percent -- similar to the rate of false accusations for other violent crimes."

Yeah, the article I posted talked about those numbers and why those numbers may not be accurate.

On the other hand, “unfounded” statistics do not capture all false allegations—only cases rejected at the earliest stage (correctly or not) because of what investigators believe to be strong proof that no crime was committed. This does not include cases in which charges are filed but rejected for prosecution (between a quarter and nearly half of all cases), or the relatively small number of prosecutions that end in dismissal or acquittal. Of course not all such cases involve innocent defendants—probably not even most; but surely some do.

False rape accusations: Why must we pretend they never happen?

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Yeah, the article I posted talked about those numbers and why those numbers may not be accurate.

False rape accusations: Why must we pretend they never happen?

I don't think that anyone pretends that any kind of false accusations don't happen, but it certainly isn't as prevalent as rape is or are you saying that rape is practically nonexistent and that most rape victims are liars?

Either way ... have a good evening. Going offline now for the evening.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I don't think that anyone pretends that any kind of false accusations don't happen, but it certainly isn't as prevalent as rape is or are you saying that rape is practically nonexistent and that most rape victims are liars?

No, I am not saying victims are liars. I am saying the whole concept of what is rape has changed now. I don't believe the woman in this story was raped but I do believe she thinks she was.

Either way ... have a good evening. Going offline now for the evening.

You too and I still love ya (in a non-rapey way

).

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MissTerraK

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

No, I am not saying victims are liars. I am saying the whole concept of what is rape has changed now. I don't believe the woman in this story was raped but I do believe she thinks she was.

You too and I still love ya (in a non-rapey way

).

Haha! There's that wonderful, fun humor again! I love it!

Terra

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

According to the NYTimes article, she did

.

Suzanne, I did a quick search and it seems he did end up stopping. I won't quote the raunchy stuff but here is the part where he did stop.

It was really painful and I was saying no, I was telling him to stop but he didn't. Then finally he did, he got off and laid down next to me for a second. I was just frozen solid. I was petrified. And then he ran out.

â€˜There Was No One For Me To Turn Toâ€™ | The Indypendent

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Claude, you're talking about people in some sort of relationship.

Nuances it all you want, I want an answer to this question.

We let's be clear...

Is anyone saying that having a sexual encounter with a drunk/unconscious woman at party etc., who can't say no - has not raped her?

I'd love to know.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Claude, you're talking about people in some sort of relationship.

Nuances it all you want, I want an answer to this question.

We let's be clear...

Is anyone like Claude saying that having a sexual encounter with a drunk/unconscious woman at party etc., who can't say no - has not raped her?

TL; You must have posted this before I posted the second half of my post.

And I wasn't saying that at all.

And about; "Claude, you're talking about people in some sort of relationship".

Not really. I was actually talking about dating, or even a one night stand. A girl can say "No" at any time. Lord knows, I could write a book about the ways a girl can say "No".

My favorite (a real thing a girl said to me); "Claude, you have some great qualities that I find very attractive, in other men". Best turn down ever.

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TLTheLiberator 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

TL; You must have posted this before I posted the second half of my post.

And I wasn't saying that at all.

Well is that situation rape or not?
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- Claude Whitacre 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator
  
  Well is that situation rape or not?
  
  Unconscious? Incapacitated? Yes, just like I plainly stated in my post.
  
  Wait..drunk? Good God, now we are going to have to determine what "Drunk" is. And frankly, I don't have that level of interest in the conversation.
  
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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Claude, you're talking about people in some sort of relationship.

Nuances it all you want, I want an answer to this question.

We let's be clear...

Is anyone saying that having a sexual encounter with a drunk/unconscious woman at party etc., who can't say no - has not raped her?

I'd love to know.

To be clear, this woman in the OP did have a sexual relationship prior to her accusing him of rape.

Now, I am not sure what you're are saying. Are you saying the woman has to specifically say she wants to have sex? I don't recall ever asking a woman, "Would you like to have intercourse with me right now". Even though that seems to be where things are going it isn't normal at all.

As for being unconsciousness, that is pretty black and white when it comes to rape. It's the drunk woman who does something she regrets the next day and decides she was raped is the problem.

There was a case where a woman hooked up with a man outside in Ohio. Someone caught it on video and it went viral. Later she claimed she was rape. Luckily for the dude, that video saved his ass.

If a woman can't control herself when she drinks, she shouldn't be drinking.

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bizgrower

10 years ago

I don't get why girls get stupid drunk and alone with boys, or why they don't report rapes to the police.

I used to hang out at a bar a lot, and to prevent being slipped a date rape drug, a lot of girls would ask me to watch their drinks while they danced or went outside to have a smoke... Why isn't there more common sense like that?

I wonder if my using a tape recorder while I ask for permission is how come there is a damper on my love life?

News like this all over the place:
Detroit's 11,303 untested rape kits subject of NBC's Rock Center Thursday | MLive.com

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

I don't get why girls get stupid drunk and alone with boys, or why they don't report rapes to the police.

I used to hang out at a bar a lot, and to prevent being slipped a date rape drug, a lot of girls would ask me to watch their drinks while they danced or went outside to have a smoke... Why isn't there more common sense like that?

I wonder if my using a tape recorder while I ask for permission is how come there is a damper on my love life?

News like this all over the place:
Detroit's 11,303 untested rape kits subject of NBC's Rock Center Thursday | MLive.com

WOW, what stopped YOU from using the drug?

I recently heard a show, and they recommended using SERAN WRAP! You COULD do something to indicate YOU put it there, and a rapist would have to REMOVE it to get the drug in.

Steve

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

WOW, what stopped YOU from using the drug?

I recently heard a show, and they recommended using SERAN WRAP! You COULD do something to indicate YOU put it there, and a rapist would have to REMOVE it to get the drug in.

Steve

1) I would never. And they know that and is why I was trusted.
2) I'm older, so they would never...

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Lexy,

Is there a sexual offenders registry over there?

If so, does it work the same as here where basically, as I understand it,
one can get on the registry regardless of the adjudication?

Dan

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Alexa Smith Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by bizgrower

Is there a sexual offenders registry over there?

Yes, there is. It's in the news/stories/analysis/comment a lot, and it's always controversial. And I don't know much at all about how it works.

Originally Posted by Kay King

This is one of those stories that you stand back and go "huh"?

That's for sure.

Even just the "walking around carrying a mattress" part, on its own, made me go "huh?".

.
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seasoned

10 years ago

You know, it is interesting! On LAW AND ORDER SVU, they will convict with almost NO evidence, and bend things all over the place. I was shocked when they had a person seemingly dead to rights, and 2 people find ********ONE******** minor flaw, investigate, find the evidence that was supposedly air tight meant NOTHING, set up a sting, and find that the guy with the SAME TATTOO, SAME FACE(OK, ONE MINOR DETAIL WRONG), SAME BUILD/WEIGHT(SAVE for ONE MINOR DETAIL NOBODY CAN SEE), and SAME LOCATION and SAME TIME(save that ONE minor flaw that 2 people couldn't explain), that REALLY did it!

You see, the one little flaw that they leave out of such cases is that DNA is NOT perfect! It is likely not so telling as they claim, but it is FACT that MANY exist with PRECISELY the SAME DNA. HECK, I remember having classes with no less than SIX sets of monozygotic twins! I had a class with 2 sets in the same class!

Anyway, such efforts there are generally not so thorough. But I think EVERY rape accusation required more than a mere accusation from one person, and they go to such lengths to use a "rape kit". YES it is embarrassing, but isn't it that much MORE embarrassing when you reveal that you waited until you were but a voice?

Steve

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Kay King

10 years ago

If Columbia is found in violation of the Clery Act, it will have to pay $35,000 per violation.

That would pay off some student loans. j/k

The reason I dislike stories like this one is that it weakens the case of women who are attacked and raped through no fault of their own. The "fault" is an arguing point but my opinion is that you weaken your case when you have an intimate relationship with the man or willingly get in bed with him.

The crazy thing to me about this story is the woman was willing. Had this man simply assumed the "position" the woman expected, I guess this would have been consensual sex. Maybe it's a good idea to get to know a man before you get nekkid with him? Totally new concept?

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

That would pay off some student loans. j/k

The reason I dislike stories like this one is that it weakens the case of women who are attacked and raped through no fault of their own. The "fault" is an arguing point but my opinion is that you weaken your case when you have an intimate relationship with the man or willingly get in bed with him.

The crazy thing to me about this story is the woman was willing. Had this man simply assumed the "position" the woman expected, I guess this would have been consensual sex. Maybe it's a good idea to get to know a man before you get nekkid with him? Totally new concept?

Expand the phone app idea to a more comprehensive survey and agreement? Maybe that would help young people get the ideas their parents are not giving them. Especially since many young'uns are just about physically attached to their phones.

His described method for getting anal sex is totally wrong, heinous, and unexpected, but I get what you are saying about knowing someone better before you get alone with them, or in bed with them.

This case did make me think about cases where a wife is out of love with her husband and he commits rape, or forced sex. (Rape to me is a crime of violence and not about sex.) No does mean no.

Dan

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Kay King

10 years ago

I love the phone app idea. It made me thing of something else, too. Kids today are connected - all the time.

When I was in college you watched out for yourself. I spent a lot of time at boozy fraternity parties, group camping on the Appalachian Trail, military institute parties. The thing was - unless you were in the company of roomies or friends...you could be at risk. If you got into a bad situation, there might not be anyone around to help.

Today's young women have a phone in their hand, in their pocket, on the nightstand... If they need help, it's just 9-1-1 away. Yet none of these women used their phones to call for help. They didn't use their phones to report a rape or attack.

IF your goal is to have someone else kicked out of the educational system...you own story should pass the smell test.

I agree - no means no. But "no" should not be a party trick you pull out when it suits you.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Today's young women have a phone in their hand, in their pocket, on the nightstand... If they need help, it's just 9-1-1 away. Yet none of these women used their phones to call for help. They didn't use their phones to report a rape or attack.

Let's see ... she was being slapped around and pinned down in bed in a really awkward position ... oh wait perp ... I have a phone call to make.

Rape is a degrading, demoralizing, violent offense and making phone calls isn't always the first thing that comes to mind when it has happened. Most victims are so humiliated and traumatized that they don't report at all... and others who do report then face policemen who don't believe their stories and defense lawyers who attempt to trash every aspect of their lives to get the rapist off. What is amazing to me is that anyone reports it.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Let's see ... she was being slapped around and pinned down in bed in a really awkward position ... oh wait perp ... I have a phone call to make.

I think you would be surprised at how many women enjoy some roughness and domination when it comes to sexy time. I, personally, don't enjoy it but have been asked by enough to see a pattern.

We don't know if they talked about this type of sexual behavior before nor do we know if this was just a spur of the moment type of thing. He could just have taken things too far.

We do know that he stopped when she told him to stop. I don't see a rapist stopping in the middle of a rape because the person said stop.

Rape is a degrading, demoralizing, violent offense and making phone calls isn't always the first thing that comes to mind when it has happened. Most victims are so humiliated and traumatized that they don't report at all... and others who do report then face policemen who don't believe their stories and defense lawyers who attempt to trash every aspect of their lives to get the rapist off. What is amazing to me is that anyone reports it.

Being victimized, in general, will bring about those types of emotions. Can you imagine being called a rapist just because you were accused? Like I said, women are doing legitimate rape victims a disservice and it's going to get worst. California just passed a new law that will probably lead to more false accusations.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I think you would be surprised at how many women enjoy some roughness and domination when it comes to sexy time. I, personally, don't enjoy it but have been asked by enough to see a pattern.

We don't know if they talked about this type of sexual behavior before nor do we know if this was just a spur of the moment type of thing. He could just have taken things too far.

We do know that he stopped when she told him to stop. I don't see a rapist stopping in the middle of a rape because the person said stop.

I've known only one person, and I never met her, but she was briefly my brother's girlfriend, who enjoyed any kind of rough stuff during sex, so while masochistic chicks might be attracted to you (lol) I don't think it's a serious trend in the mainstream.

He did not stop when she screamed stop. He "eventually" stopped, according to her in that link you provided. I read that and it was the one article that had more of her words and experience in it than most others and her words rang true for me at least.

What I absolutely think happened here is that this guy had a fixation with anal sex, a fixation that she did not share and would not agree to. He decided that he would do it anyway.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Being victimized, in general, will bring about those types of emotions. Can you imagine being called a rapist just because you were accused? Like I said, women are doing legitimate rape victims a disservice and it's going to get worst. California just passed a new law that will probably lead to more false accusations.

What ... you mean yes means yes? lol. Since it appears that a lot of men don't "get" the word no, is it so surprising that a state would feel it was necessary to spell it out to them? I'm surprised that the states haven't issued a kindergarten picture book to distribute along with the new law. But that's just being facetious.

You don't have to minimize rape to toot the horn for the small percentage of men who are falsely accused. They are both crimes of equal seriousness.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I've known only one person, and I never met her, but she was briefly my brother's girlfriend, who enjoyed any kind of rough stuff during sex, so while masochistic chicks might be attracted to you (lol) I don't think it's a serious trend in the mainstream.

I wouldn't expect women to tell each other they wanted to be dominated. But who knows what women talk about.

My family thinks they can pick out the craziest woman in the room simply by her being attracted to me. haha

He did not stop when she screamed stop. He "eventually" stopped, according to her in that link you provided. I read that and it was the one article that had more of her words and experience in it than most others and her words rang true for me at least.

Yes, he stopped. I don't know about you, but during a passionate love making session, sometimes things don't register right away. I have had women tell me to stop and they had to say it a couple of times before I came to my senses and understood what they were saying. I also had to tell women to stop a couple of times because they were insatiable. haha

The thing is he stopped and I don't see rapists stopping, do you?

What I absolutely think happened here is that this guy had a fixation with anal sex, a fixation that she did not share and would not agree to. He decided that he would do it anyway.

Yeah, could be but I don't think he was trying to rape her. I don't ask my partner if I can do something before I do it. Again, I just don't go sticking things into places unless I know I'm invited. haha I do think he knew he went too far otherwise he wouldn't have ran off if that was the truth. I have a hard time believing much of what this woman is saying to begin with.

What ... you mean yes means yes? lol. Since it appears that a lot of men don't "get" the word no, is it so surprising that a state would feel it was necessary to spell it out to them? I'm surprised that the states haven't issued a kindergarten picture book to distribute along with the new law. But that's just being facetious.

Women are confusing and guys are idiots. Plenty of women told me no and then jumped on me later. The problem is when guys push it to the point instead of just allowing it to happen. With the way things are today, I have a feeling more and more of our younguns won't know how to interact with each other outside a phone app.

Besides, they were in the middle of sex. It wasn't like they didn't have a sexual relationship already. It just sounds like things went too far and he stopped when he realized it.

You don't have to minimize rape to toot the horn for the small percentage of men who are falsely accused. They are both crimes of equal seriousness.

We will have to disagree, but it has been great that we can discuss this especially it being a very emotionally charged topic.

I think the false accusations are much more prevalent than you think. I posted quite a few cases and could continue to post more.

I don't think anyone should be branded as guilty based on mere accusations. I do take rape seriously which is why I am dumbfounded when women trivialize it to either get attention or to cover up a mistake they made. Then you have other women allowing this type of behavior to occur.

I think most people are good, in nature, and want to protect those that are victimized. The problem is those protective responses are steadily being taken advantage of and will continue to do so. I don't think the media is helping at all but pushing that type of behavior. This woman is a prime example of everything wrong and how she is hurting the legitimate rape victims because there will be more and more people who will automatically question any and all accusations.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I wouldn't expect women to tell each other they wanted to be dominated. But who knows what women talk about.

In terms of sex, the conversations I've had leaned more to "size matters" rather than I like to be raped, or handled roughly.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Yes, he stopped. I don't know about you, but during a passionate love making session, sometimes things don't register right away. I have had women tell me to stop and they had to say it a couple of times before I came to my senses and understood what they were saying. I also had to tell women to stop a couple of times because they were insatiable. haha

The thing is he stopped and I don't see rapists stopping, do you?

Sorry Tom ... to continue beyond a second when she said no constitutes rape IMO. I'm certain at this point that you disagree, but an abundance of testosterone racing through your body is not defense for rape.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Women are confusing and guys are idiots. Plenty of women told me no and then jumped on me later. The problem is when guys push it to the point instead of just allowing it to happen. With the way things are today, I have a feeling more and more of our younguns won't know how to interact with each other outside a phone app.

Besides, they were in the middle of sex. It wasn't like they didn't have a sexual relationship already. It just sounds like things went too far and he stopped when he realized it.

They were in the middle of consensual sex until he took it to a level that she didn't agree to do. Consensual sex isn't permission to do anything that you want to do. When she said no, it was no longer consensual.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

We have to disagree. I think the false accusations are much more prevalent than you think. I posted quite a few cases and could continue to post more.

I don't think anyone should be branded as guilty based on mere accusations. I do take rape seriously which is why I am dumbfounded when women trivialize it to either get attention or to cover up a mistake they made. Then you have other women allowing this type of behavior to occur.

He had a hearing by the school on one of the other cases and was found to be responsible for rape in that case. So you think this guy is some poor innocent dude who just gets falsely accused of rape every time he has sex? I don't buy it. If a woman says nothing, she's guilty of saying nothing so has no rights to ever say anything. If she screams and shouts it to anyone who will listen, she's guilty of wanting attention. Unless she's bloodied and beaten and hospitalized looking like she got run over by a truck, she's often not believed. And if she has a previously agreeable sexual relationship and all of a sudden he wants to try out something he saw in a porn mag and she says no ... well, that's not rape. That's just the heat of the moment.

This is one topic that I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Consensual sex isn't permission to do anything that you want to do.

Indeed.

And opting in for product updates isn't permission to send affiliate-links for other people's WSO's twice a day, either. But you try telling that to idiot marketers whose own WSO you bought. In their perspective, you opted in, so it "can't possibly be spam".

I'm not trying to trivialize it: there is actually an analogy there.

.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Indeed.

And opting in for product updates isn't permission to send affiliate-links for other people's WSO's twice a day, either. But you try telling that to idiot marketers whose own WSO you bought. In their perspective, you opted in, so it "can't possibly be spam".

I'm not trying to trivialize it: there is actually an analogy there.

Yes there is an analogy. Of course, one is a serious crime and the other is really annoying and pisses me off too. The last product that I bought, I am completely happy with ... until I started getting at least one, but more often two offers a day from the seller. It was a product that I wanted to keep updated, but I unsubscribed from his list and now won't be notified. I think that they should have two lists ... one for updates only and one for spamming the crap out of people who just bought their product.

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Kay King

10 years ago

THIS is why schools should not be meddling in police affairs. This incident occurred in 2010....and only due to a lawsuit and the DOJ noticing four years later is it made public....

The school's attempt to cover it up and minimize it are disgusting.

Justice Department enters case involving school

Sparkman Middle administrators kept jobs or were promoted after teen used as 'bait' raped in school bathroom | AL.com

No teacher's aide did that (encourage the girl to be "bait") unless she was told by teachers/administrators to do that. Teacher's aides in this area, at least, don't make policy decisions.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

THIS is why schools should not be meddling in police affairs. This incident occurred in 2010....and only due to a lawsuit and the DOJ noticing four years later is it made public....

The school's attempt to cover it up and minimize it are disgusting.

Justice Department enters case involving school

Sparkman Middle administrators kept jobs or were promoted after teen used as 'bait' raped in school bathroom | AL.com

No teacher's aide did that (encourage the girl to be "bait") unless she was told by teachers/administrators to do that. Teacher's aides in this area, at least, don't make policy decisions.

I read that yesterday ... horrible. Could not believe the story.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

They were in the middle of consensual sex until he took it to a level that she didn't agree to do. Consensual sex isn't permission to do anything that you want to do. When she said no, it was no longer consensual.

What exactly does that mean?

She says yes to sex and then changes her mind and it automatically becomes rape?

If she tells him to stop and he stops is it still rape? If he keeps going for a second longer is it still rape? A minute?

As I said, the definition of rape is beyond absurd now. A woman can have sex with a guy and then change her mind later and now it's rape.

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

What exactly does that mean?

She says yes to sex and then changes her mind and it automatically becomes rape?

If she tells him to stop and he stops is it still rape? If he keeps going for a second longer is it still rape? A minute?

As I said, the definition of rape is beyond absurd now. A woman can have sex with a guy and then change her mind later and now it's rape.

I guess you must have me on ignore. I say INSANE things sometimes, but ONLY because it is an INSANE world. YEP, that is probably what she means. As I said, some DO!

Steve

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

I guess you must have me on ignore. I say INSANE things sometimes, but ONLY because it is an INSANE world. YEP, that is probably what she means. As I said, some DO!

Steve

Steve, I don't have anyone on ignore.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

What exactly does that mean?

She says yes to sex and then changes her mind and it automatically becomes rape?

If she tells him to stop and he stops is it still rape? If he keeps going for a second longer is it still rape? A minute?

As I said, the definition of rape is beyond absurd now. A woman can have sex with a guy and then change her mind later and now it's rape.

Ok, if I have to spell it out to you, so be it. She consented to the same kind of sex that she had consented to before ... vaginal sex. She did not consent to anal sex and many women do not. The moment that he attempted anal sex, she withdrew her consent by telling him no.

He did not stop until he was damned good and ready to. He eventually stopped. He did not stop doing what he didn't have consent to do until "eventually" which was some time after she had said no, but by no means not immediately after she said no.

I really that's it's beyond absurd that you think it's beyond absurd that anal sex continuing after NO is not rape. That's why I said we will simply have to agree to disagree. You apparently think that just because she had sex with him before and was going to have sex with him this particular night, that he could stick it where ever he wanted to stick it, whether she agreed or not.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Ok, if I have to spell it out to you, so be it. She consented to the same kind of sex that she had consented to before ... vaginal sex. She did not consent to anal sex and many women do not. The moment that he attempted anal sex, she withdrew her consent by telling him no.

He did not stop until he was damned good and ready to. He eventually stopped. He did not stop doing what he didn't have consent to do until "eventually" which was some time after she had said no, but by no means not immediately after she said no.

I really that's it's beyond absurd that you think it's beyond absurd that anal sex continuing after NO is not rape. That's why I said we will simply have to agree to disagree. You apparently think that just because she had sex with him before and was going to have sex with him this particular night, that he could stick it where ever he wanted to stick it, whether she agreed or not.

Where did it say he stopped when he was good and ready?

All I read was he eventually stopped. That could mean he stopped when he realized she wanted him to stop.

Does this have to be within seconds in order not to be rape? Again, if he stopped within a minute of her saying no, is that rape?

If she decides the next day she didn't like what happened, is that rape?

Please answer the questions.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Where did it say he stopped when he was good and ready?

All I read was he eventually stopped. That could mean he stopped when he realized she wanted him to stop.

Does this have to be within seconds in order not to be rape? Again, if he stopped within a minute of her saying no, is that rape?

Please answer the questions.

No, I'm done with the conversation now. For anyone to think they have a right to a sex act, not consented to, for even one second is beyond my comprehension and tolerance. The article you linked to clearly shows that he continued beyond NO.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

No, I'm done with the conversation now. For anyone to think they have a right to a sex act, not consented to, for even one second is beyond my comprehension and tolerance. The article you linked to clearly shows that he continued beyond NO.

No, you are not being honest which is why you don't want to answer the question. There is a chance the guy stopped when he realized she wanted him to stop. There is no mention of how long he "continued". I could see your point if he realized she didn't want to continue and he continued.

The part I am trying to get through is you or I don't really know. We don't know if he stopped within a minute of her telling him to stop or if he stopped within an hour. One would be rape while the other wouldn't.

Again, instead of being honest we get to hear this no means no bs.

Of course this doesn't matter to some people, like you, because you automatically blame the dude whenever a woman cries rape. Even after the links I posted you still maintain it isn't a big problem. You claim women are victimized yet show no remorse for the men's lives that are ruined simply because they are accused.

Because of attitudes, like that, I will have a hard time believing any cry of rape. It's unfortunate, because it only hurts the real victims when it comes to them getting help.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

No, you are not being honest which is why you don't want to answer the question. There is a chance the guy stopped when he realized she wanted him to stop. There is no mention of how long he "continued". I could see your point if he realized she didn't want to continue and he continued.

The part I am trying to get through is you or I don't really know. We don't know if he stopped within a minute of her telling him to stop or if he stopped within an hour. One would be rape while the other wouldn't.

Again, instead of being honest we get to hear this no means no bs.

Of course this doesn't matter to some people, like you, because you automatically blame the dude whenever a woman cries rape. Even after the links I posted you still maintain it isn't a big problem. You claim women are victimized yet show no remorse for the men's lives that are ruined simply because they are accused.

Because of attitudes, like that, I will have a hard time believing any cry of rape. It's unfortunate, because it only hurts the real victims when it comes to them getting help.

Sorry Tom, but I really don't want to debate someone who seems to be a rape apologist, so concerned with men's issues that rape is just a bunch of women blaming men wrongfully. Why should I have remorse for men's lives being ruined? I never accused anyone of rape. At this point I don't care if you believe women or not. You sound like you have a bad case self entitlement when it comes to what you think you and men should be allowed to do.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Sorry Tom, but I really don't want to debate someone who seems to be a rape apologist, so concerned with men's issues that rape is just a bunch of women blaming men wrongfully. Why should I have remorse for men's lives being ruined? I never accused anyone of rape. At this point I don't care if you believe women or not. You sound like you have a bad case self entitlement when it comes to what you think you and men should be allowed to do.

Ah now we start with the name calling. If you were honest, you would be able to answer the questions instead of trying to hide behind accusations and deflection.

So you don't care if men's lives are ruined but sure do care when some strange woman yells rape. The funny thing is you and others like you don't see the hypocrisy in this.

Me, I am simple. I just want to have mutually consented sex without having to worry about her changing her mind the next week, accuse me of rape and then be demonized by people like you simply because of her accusation.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Ah now we start with the name calling. If you were honest, you would be able to answer the questions instead of trying to hide behind accusations and deflection.

Me, I am simple. I just want to have mutually consented sex without having to worry if she changes her mind the next week I won't be accused of rape and then be demonized by people like you.

Calling names? That's the second time you've called me dishonest. I've already spent a great deal of time discussing every aspect of this and the link that YOU yourself provided, which of course is nothing but lies to you, details the timeline exactly. But what difference does it make. Women are liars. Poor men are wrongly accused. There is no rape. You don't want to be demonized by people like me? Then don't stick it where it ain't invited.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Calling names? That's the second time you've called me dishonest. I've already spent a great deal of time discussing every aspect of this and the link that YOU yourself provided, which of course is nothing but lies to you, details the timeline exactly. But what difference does it make. Women are liars. Poor men are wrongly accused. There is no rape. You don't want to be demonized by people like me? Then don't stick it where it ain't invited.

More deflection. You were being dishonest when saying things like "he stopped when he was good and ready." There was nothing in the article that stated that.

No, the whole don't do anything wrong and you won't be demonized isn't truth. I could piss off one woman, her make up an accusation and people like you would assume it was true. It happens plenty and I proved that with link after link.

That article you quoted was based on her statement. You are ready to hang the dude even though you never heard his part of the story. That is dishonest, imo.

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discrat

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

The part I am trying to get through is you or I don't really know. We don't know if he stopped within a minute of her telling him to stop or if he stopped within an hour. One would be rape while the other wouldn't.

Tom,
Sorry I do not agree with this at all. If it is 30 seconds after she says "NO". It still is rape.

I know guys like to get a nut and all the but regardless it is still rape

Unless you have severely impaired hearing or something .....once you hear "NO" it should be automatic.

There should be NO hesitation on the guy's part.

There is just no excuse for him whatsoever to keep going..

One minute is an enternity.

Especially, when we are talking about some delicate areas like this.

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Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

Tom,
Sorry I do not agree with this at all. If it is 30 seconds after she says "NO". It still is rape.

I know guys like to get a nut and allthe but regardless it is still rape

No worries on disagreeing. I think this topic is worthy of discussion even without agreeing.

You're idea of rape scares me, though. I will be worried if she says stop and needing to stop within 30 seconds or become a rapist.

I wasn't talking about getting a "nut".

Not to get graphical, but I want to make a point that this isn't as black and white. I have had to tell my partner to stop and she didn't stop until she realized what I was saying.

I have also had my partner tell me to stop because it was hurting and it took me time to realize what she was saying.

I guess I was raped and a rapist all with the same partner.

Sometimes in the heat of passion you don't register right away what a person is saying. I could agree if the person understood and kept going, but from experience, it sometimes takes a minute or two to hear the "NO".

Unless you guys are having boring sex. haha j/k

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discrat

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

No worries on disagreeing. I think this topic is worthy of discussion even without agreeing.

You're idea of rape scares me, though. I will be worried if she says stop and needing to stop within 30 seconds or become a rapist.

I guess it struck me as odd about when you said a Minute not being Rape.

Because in the heat of the Passion and (not to be graphic) bodies are going at supersonic rate. And 1 minute is pretty long.

Try counting 1 Mississippi ,two Mississippi, three Mississipii. etc..etc.. and then think about someone saying "NO" and it took you that long to stop up to 60.

That could definitely in my book be long enough to constitute someone going overboard and it being considered a Rape.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

I guess it struck me as odd about when you said a Minute not being Rape.

Because in the heat of the Passion and (not to be graphic) bodies are going at supersonic rate. And 1 minute is pretty long.

Try counting 1 Mississippi ,two Mississippi, three Mississipii. etc..etc.. and then think about someone saying "NO" and it took you that long to stop up to 60.

That could definitely in my book be long enough to constitute someone going overboard and it being considered a Rape.

Yea, the minute seemed to have tripped up a few people and I understand why.

I responded to Cali as too my whole point on that.

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Cali16

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I will be worried if she says stop and needing to stop within 30 seconds or become a rapist.

Sometimes in the heat of passion you don't register right away what a person is saying. I could agree if the person understood and kept going, but from experience, it sometimes takes a minute or two to hear the "NO".

Thomas, I understand where you are coming from - to a point. But let me ask you this; if you were with a woman who decided she wanted to try something new (this is just an example to make a point) and she suddenly shoves something into you (without your permission) and it causes extreme discomfort or worse - excruciating pain, I'm guessing you'd think "a minute or two" wouldn't be acceptable after all. Are you entitled, under that type of circumstance, to "change your mind" about continuing to have sex? As Suzanne pointed out, "consensual sex" doesn't mean consent to do whatever you want to your partner...

The dilemma with your argument is where do you draw the line - at 30 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes...? And this is problematic because, as Discrat pointed out, a minute can feel like an eternity in some instances.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Cali16

Thomas, I understand where you are coming from - to a point.

Great! I thought I was going to have to bring out some diagrams.

But let me ask you this; if you were with a woman who decided she wanted to try something new (this is just an example to make a point) and she suddenly shoves something into you (without your permission) and it causes extreme discomfort or worse - excruciating pain, I'm guessing you'd think "a minute or two" wouldn't be acceptable after all. Are you entitled, under that type of circumstance, to "change your mind" about continuing to have sex? As Suzanne pointed out, "consensual sex" doesn't men consent to do whatever you want to your partner...

The dilemma with your argument is where do you draw the line - at 30 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes...? And this is problematic because, as Discrat pointed out, a minute can feel like an eternity in some instances.

I think you and others are getting fixated on the "minute". When I brought up how long did the person have to stop before they were considered a rapist really wasn't about a time frame.

It was more about illustrating intent.

If a rapist wanted to rape someone I don't see them stopping when the person says stop. From my understanding, rape is more about being in control.

A person who wants consensual sex would stop if they realize the other person wanted to stop.

The story that started this discussion didn't say when he stopped. It just said he eventually stopped. We don't know if he kept going to get off or if he stopped when he realized she was in pain and wanted to stop.

We shouldn't assume one over the other.

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positivenegative

10 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

Tom,
Sorry I do not agree with this at all. If it is 30 seconds after she says "NO". It still is rape.

Yeah, he's been told this a dozen or more time's in the thread already but for some reason wants to prolong this (his) debate. If I didn't know any better I'd say he was getting off on the subject.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by positivenegative

Yeah, he's been told this a dozen or more time's in the thread already but for some reason wants to prolong this (his) debate. If I didn't know any better I'd say he was getting off on the subject.

Thanks for pointing out the typical way people handle disagreement when it comes to this subject.

Sounds like you're projecting... just saying.

At least I am willing to put my statements behind my name and not be anonymous.

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positivenegative

10 years ago

[DELETED]

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by positivenegative

It's not a matter of disagreement. You're in the minority, and a very tiny minority at that.

There are better things to do than debate an alleged college rape with you. The story doesn't warrant a thread of this length on a chill-out section of an IM discussion board, and only your (warped) observations are extending it.

With that, I'm off to play some CD tracks, so I'll bid you goodnight Thomas.

No one is making you read or participate in this thread discussion. How about you worry about your own behavior and let the adults discuss what they want to discuss.

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positivenegative

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

How about you worry about your own behavior and let the adults discuss what they want to discuss.

It must have been a real struggle to keep your tongue-in-cheek whilst you typed that out.

FYI I'm a lot older than you. And, evidently, also have a lot more respect for women than you.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by positivenegative

It must have been a real struggle to keep your tongue-in-cheek whilst you typed that out.

FYI I'm a lot older than you. And, evidently, also have a lot more respect for women than you.

I thought you were done? You can't even control your own actions but want to tell others what to do.

I wouldn't know how old you are because you hide behind an anonymous account.

I don't respect people just because they were born with a particular gender. I do try to treat people like I want to be treated regardless if they are a woman or man.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by positivenegative

FYI I'm a lot older than you. And, evidently, also have a lot more respect for women than you.

I can tell you, having been a beneficiary of reading Mr. Cueball's posts here ever since I joined, and having discussed a few things with him over the years (including one or two where we haven't been in complete agreement), that he's not short of respect for women any more than he's short of respect for men.

I'm sure someone's gender isn't at all relevant to his degree of respect for them.

.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I can tell you, having been a beneficiary of reading Mr. Cueball's posts here ever since I joined, and having discussed a few things with him over the years (including one or two where we haven't been in complete agreement), that he's not short of respect for women any more than he's short of respect for men.

I'm sure someone's gender isn't at all relevant to his degree of respect for them.

.

Thanks Alexa.

I guess not everyone believes in gender equality.

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positivenegative

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I can tell you, having been a beneficiary of reading Mr. Cueball's posts here ever since I joined, and having discussed a few things with him over the years (including one or two where we haven't been in complete agreement), that he's not short of respect for women any more than he's short of respect for men.

I'm sure someone's gender isn't at all relevant to his degree of respect for them.

I never said he didn't respect women. What I said was . . .

Originally Posted by positivenegative

FYI I'm a lot older than you. And, evidently, also have a lot more respect for women than you.

There IS a difference. Quite a large one. Perhaps you missed that in your rush to defend Cueball.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Thanks Alexa.

I guess not everyone believes in gender equality.

WTF has what I said got to do with gender equality? Seems you tend to make a lot of things up as you go along. It's a trait that's evident in a lot of the threads you become embroiled in.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by positivenegative

WTF has what I said got to do with gender equality? Seems you tend to make a lot of things up as you go along. It's a trait that's evident in a lot of the threads you become embroiled in.

It doesn't surprise me you don't understand. It is also evident that you feel the need to make disagreements personal while also trying to shut down discussion, that you don't like, when all you have to do is not read or respond.

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positivenegative

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

It doesn't surprise me you don't understand. It is also evident that you feel the need to make disagreements personal while also trying to shut down discussion, that you don't like, when all you have to do is not read or respond.

You can't even explain yourself properly. Yet another false statement from you. No-one's making disagreements personal - I was responding to pathetic misinterpretations that were made regarding my earlier comment.

Exactly how does my saying that I believe I have more respect for women than you, equate to your assumption that I don't believe in gender equality? Either answer it or don't bother. But please, leave the gobbledegook replies out.

As for discussion; there's no such thing with you as you've protracted this thread with your repetitive bias in favour of the "poor man" accused of rape. You just don't get the wider picture that so many have tried to relate to you here.

Seems you thrive on creating friction and spouting misplaced views on your one-man crusade. Pretty sad really.

I'd usually welcome an intellectual debate but, sadly, you don't even come close to the mark for qualifying purposes.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by positivenegative

You can't even explain yourself properly. Yet another false statement from you. No-one's making disagreements personal - I was responding to pathetic misinterpretations that were made regarding my earlier comment.

As for discussion; there's no such thing with you as you've protracted this thread with your repetitive bias in favour of the "poor man" accused of rape. You just don't get the wider picture that so many have tried to relate to you here.

Seems you thrive on creating friction and spouting misplaced views on your one-man crusade. Pretty sad really.

I'd usually welcome an intellectual debate but, sadly, you don't even come close to the mark for qualifying purposes.

Hmmm, care to try again?

Yeah, he's been told this a dozen or more time's in the thread already but for some reason wants to prolong this (his) debate. If I didn't know any better I'd say he was getting off on the subject.

It's not a matter of disagreement. You're in the minority, and a very tiny minority at that.

There are better things to do than debate an alleged college rape with you. The story doesn't warrant a thread of this length on a chill-out section of an IM discussion board, and only your (warped) observations are extending it.

The fact that you think I am bias shows how sad you and others are when it comes to this topic.

I am for innocence until proven guilty.

You and others are obviously not unless there are certain circumstances you think do not warrant that luxury which wouldn't surprise me based on your past posts.

You're right, I am in the minority and that is sad because there could be a time you would want to be afforded the same luxury.

I have yet to read any type of intellectual response from you on this topic nor in many others.

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positivenegative

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I have yet to read any type of intellectual response from you on this topic nor in many others.

You've had the intellectual responses in this thread. You've had the common sense responses in this thread. And you've had the majority viewpoint in this thread - from both sexes. Unfortunately, it doesn't sink in with you.

I believe that if your total posts in this thread were amalgamated, typed out, and presented in a folder, there would be enough material there to keep a psychiatrists convention going for several weeks.

Try to get the wider picture. It's not your views on this isolated college rape mattress protest. It's also nothing to do with your opinion that any person is innocent until proven guilty (I believe the same and so does almost everyone else). It's more about your overall defence in general of the male persona, and in particular your random trivialisations of many aspects of rape in general.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by positivenegative

You've had the intellectual responses in this thread. You've had the common sense responses in this thread. And you've had the majority viewpoint in this thread - from both sexes. Unfortunately, it doesn't sink in with you.

I believe that if your total posts in this thread were amalgamated, typed out, and presented in a folder, there would be enough material there to keep a psychiatrists convention going for several weeks.

It isn't your job to tell us when the conversation is done. When it is done it will end on it's own. You come across as somewhat controlling in that aspect. Maybe something to share with that psych convention you mentioned.

Try to get the wider picture. It's not your views on this isolated college rape mattress protest. It's also nothing to do with your opinion that any person is innocent until proven guilty (I believe the same and so does almost everyone else). It's more about your overall defence in general of the male persona, and in particular your random trivialisations of many aspects of rape in general.

Yes, I heard your arguments before. The minute someone doesn't believe a rape accusation they are trivializing it.

I had a very close relative of mine that was raped. I take it very serious which is why it pisses me off when people use it as casually as they do these days. I understand my opinions are uncomfortable to many. I even posted many links to back up why I feel the way I do.

I am glad that there are many here who have no problem discussing, in a respectful manner, even if they don't agree with me.

Part of the reason I speak my mind, now, is because the attitudes such as yours hurts the real rape victims more than it helps. I don't doubt that things will get worst when it comes to this.

I certainly won't be bullied into shutting up by people such as yourself.

You don't seem to worry too much about the men's rights like someone else here. Many don't when it comes to rape. Even the idea of a man defending himself will set off a lot of people.

Everyone and I mean everyone deserve the same rights even if they are rightly accused.

The fact that we see reality vastly different should make you sit back and THINK that just because someone said it happened in a particular way may not be exactly how it happened.

The woman with the mattress has been incongruent from day one. It should be noticed and it should be called out because rape is serious.

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positivenegative 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

You don't seem to worry too much about the men's rights like someone else here. Many don't when it comes to rape.

Nonsense, you're just assuming again. I'm all for supporting men's rights to a fair hearing in ANY case, not just rape.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

The woman with the mattress has been incongruent from day one. It should be noticed and it should be called out because rape is serious.

Finally, you've said it, even if not meant in the right context.

Pointless continuing the conversation so I'll leave you to your opinions and drum-beatings.
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- Tom B Banned 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by positivenegative
  
  Nonsense, you're just assuming again. I'm all for supporting men's rights to a fair hearing in ANY case, not just rape.
  
  I am happy to be wrong in that regards.
  
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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by positivenegative

You've had the intellectual responses in this thread. You've had the common sense responses in this thread. And you've had the majority viewpoint in this thread - from both sexes. Unfortunately, it doesn't sink in with you.

I believe that if your total posts in this thread were amalgamated, typed out, and presented in a folder, there would be enough material there to keep a psychiatrists convention going for several weeks.

Try to get the wider picture. It's not your views on this isolated college rape mattress protest. It's also nothing to do with your opinion that any person is innocent until proven guilty (I believe the same and so does almost everyone else). It's more about your overall defence in general of the male persona, and in particular your random trivialisations of many aspects of rape in general.

I don't share your views on Thomas's opinions.

I think where his head is at is that some women fake rape as vengeance and we can't automatically assume she is a victim because she can scream it loud enough. I met women like that at the crisis center. They'd come in and try to get the center behind them to help in their case, but from what we could discern when talking with them is that they were lying - mostly to pursue some sort of punishment for a man who had rejected them. It happens, and when you get too quick to judge the situation, men can end up on the victim side of the fence, especially when there is bandwagoning going on.

I've also seen men who have gotten raped and it's not pretty, but because of the ego involved, it is not taken too seriously. I've heard a lot of jokes about men being raped - and nobody would think of telling the same jokes regarding a woman.

Take for instance- one man was cornered by 3 women - one with a gun. They broke a coke bottle and sodomized him with it. Reports of this crime were kept very quiet. The man almost died. He was raped why? Because the women felt he should be taken down a peg or two - typical rape as a weapon mentality.

I've also seen feminists who are so anti-male that they are willing to destroy them for stupidity such as he opened a door for them.

It's a good idea in any crime not to jump on a bandwagon until the facts are known. Not doing so in no way means you support the crime or are accusative of victims.

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Sal
When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I am for innocence until proven guilty.

Originally Posted by HeySal

I agree. Women need to have martial arts training. So do kids. People can't count on someone else being around 24/7 to protect you. If someone attacks me, I annihilate them. Not worried about breaking bones or killing them - worry about putting them on the ground and making sure they will never breed.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You can be for anything you want to be for. I'm with Sal. Here's what I am for. Meeting assault with deadly force. I will exercise the right to self defense with deadly force. Taught my daughter's the same thing. None of us have ever been raped. And if I'm not packing deadly force, you can be assured that I'm carrying a device that will blast enough voltage in a rapist that they will be rendered incapable of their cowardly assault on a woman ... and I won't let go of the trigger either.

Taught my daughters the same thing. They've never been raped either. They're teaching their daughters the same thing. Would be rapists and general morons who pretend not to know what no means, choose your victims carefully.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You can be for anything you want to be for. I'm with Sal. Here's what I am for. Meeting assault with deadly force. I will exercise the right to self defense with deadly force. Taught my daughter's the same thing. None of us have ever been raped. And if I'm not packing deadly force, you can be assured that I'm carrying a device that will blast enough voltage in a rapist that they will be rendered incapable of their cowardly assault on a woman ... and I won't let go of the trigger either.

Taught my daughters the same thing. They've never been raped either. They're teaching their daughters the same thing. Would be rapists and general morons who pretend not to know what no means, choose your victims carefully.

There ya go. That's the attitude that will keep most rapists away from you.

I like electricity real well, too. Rigged my house with it once to stop a stalker when I didn't have a gun. LMAO. It works.

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Sal
When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

There ya go. That's the attitude that will keep most rapists away from you.

I like electricity real well, too. Rigged my house with it once to stop a stalker when I didn't have a gun. LMAO. It works.

Yeah ... I'm betting that it just ruins a good boner. lol
Best Self Defense Products: TASER® C2

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You can be for anything you want to be for. I'm with Sal. Here's what I am for. Meeting assault with deadly force. I will exercise the right to self defense with deadly force. Taught my daughter's the same thing. None of us have ever been raped. And if I'm not packing deadly force, you can be assured that I'm carrying a device that will blast enough voltage in a rapist that they will be rendered incapable of their cowardly assault on a woman ... and I won't let go of the trigger either.

Taught my daughters the same thing. They've never been raped either. They're teaching their daughters the same thing. Would be rapists and general morons who pretend not to know what no means, choose your victims carefully.

I do hope both men and women start fighting against rape and abuse. Any type of assault is cowardly but we know where you stand when it comes to men's rights.

A rape epidemic

If the CDC figures are to be taken at face value, then we must also conclude that, far from being a product of patriarchal violence against women, "rape culture" is a two-way street, with plenty of female perpetrators and male victims.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I do hope both men and women start fighting against rape and abuse. Any type of assault is cowardly but we know where you stand when it comes to men's rights.

Sorry baldie but you don't know me at all. In fact, I've stated more than once in this thread that both rape and false accusations of rape are a serious crime.

I let men take care of rallying for men's rights. I'm a woman and with rape happening at the rate of one every two minutes, I've put my focus on self protection and teaching my daughters to self protect.

So you can lie all you want to further your little soapbox, but I never stated that false accusations of rape weren't a crime. But if you're implying that men have an inherent right to sex with whomever and whenever and however they want to, they don't.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Sorry baldie but you don't know me at all. In fact, I've stated more than once in this thread that both rape and false accusations of rape are a serious crime.

I let men take care of rallying for men's rights. I'm a woman and with rape happening at the rate of one every two minutes, I've put my focus on self protection and teaching my daughters to self protect.

So you can lie all you want to further your little soapbox, but I never stated that false accusations of rape weren't a crime.

Nah, I don't need to lie. You just don't care as quoted. Trying to say otherwise is more dishonesty from you.

Why should I have remorse for men's lives being ruined? I never accused anyone of rape.

According to your logic, I never raped anyone so why would I care if someone is raped? Hardly a reasonable stance but that isn't something I would expect when it comes to certain topics.

Apparently it isn't just women being raped in large numbers so you better train your sons if you have any.

According to a recent study from the University of Missouri, published by the American Psychological Association, male victims of sexual assault are often victimized by women: "A total of 43% of high school boys and young college men reported they had an unwanted sexual experience and of those, 95% said a female acquaintance was the aggressor, according to a study published online in the APA journal Psychology of Men and Masculinity."

Funny on the soap box comment. Looking over your posts, in this thread, it sure sounds like you were yelling from your own soap box.

You should be teaching your kids how to protect themselves. I don't see why any parent wouldn't.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Nah, I don't need to lie. You just don't care as quoted. Trying to say otherwise is more dishonesty from you.

According to your logic, I never raped anyone so why would I care if someone is raped? Hardly a reasonable stance but that isn't something I would expect when it comes to certain topics.

Funny on the soap box comment. Looking over your posts, in this thread, it sure sounds like you were yelling from your own soap box.

At least twice in this thread I've stated that false accusations were a crime ... a serious crime, so where you get that I've said anything other than that is just a problem with reading comprehension and lying on your part.

Don't pretend to know my logic ... logic that I haven't stated anywhere in this thread. As for soapbox, I have the same right to voice my opinions on this topic as you do.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

At least twice in this thread I've stated that false accusations were a crime ... a serious crime, so where you get that I've said anything other than that is just a problem with reading comprehension and lying on your part.

Don't pretend to know my logic ... logic that I haven't stated anywhere in this thread. As for soapbox, I have the same right to voice my opinions on this topic as you do.

I quoted what you said. There is no lying or misunderstanding. I am really not understanding how you can dance around your own post.

I don't pretend to know your logic. In fact, I don't understand it at all.

You brought up soap boxes, not I. Again, not understanding your logic since I never said voicing an opinion is bad.

In fact, I encouraged others to do the same even when they disagree with me.

For some reason, you are trying to call me out with having an agenda while you are doing the very same thing.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I quoted what you said. There is no lying or misunderstanding. I am really not understanding how you can dance around your own post.

I don't pretend to know your logic. In fact, I don't understand it at all.

You brought up soap boxes, not I. Again, not understanding your logic since I never said voicing an opinion is bad.

In fact, I encouraged others to do the same even when they disagree with me.

For some reason, you are trying to call me out with having an agenda while you are doing the very same thing.

What post would that be Tom. Put a link to the offensive post please, because I don't see any quote from you that is saying that I condoned false accusations.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

What post would that be Tom. Put a link to the offensive post please, because I don't see any quote from you that is saying that I condoned false accusations.

I never said you condone false accusations. I said you don't care about men's rights and that was the post I quoted asking why you should care if men's lives are ruined.

Why should I have remorse for men's lives being ruined? I never accused anyone of rape.

I thought it was pretty self explanatory.

I also never called it offensive. I prefer you being honest and if that is how you feel I appreciate the honesty.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I never said you condone false accusations. I said you don't care and that was the post I quoted. I thought it was pretty self explanatory.

Sorry Thomas, but yeah ... I know what post you're babbling on about now. The one where I said I never accused any man of rape so why would I feel bad about it? or something like that.

Fact is Thomas, I'm a woman and thereby largely concerned with women's issues. You big boys can take care of your own issues, I assume.

There is one rape every two minutes in this country. Most of them go unpunished.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Sorry Thomas, but yeah ... I know what post you're babbling on about now. The one where I said I never accused any man of rape so why would I care? or something like that.

Fact is Thomas, I'm a woman and thereby largely concerned with women's issues. You big boys can take care of your own issues, I assume.

There is one rape every two minutes in this country. Most of them go unpunished.

I'm not babbling, I was answering your questions.

Yes, you are a woman and that is a fact. I am a man.

You can identify with woman issues and I can identify with men.

Rape isn't just a woman thang. You should read the article I posted.

But like I said, you are more concerned with women issues than men. I appreciate the honesty. I would rather you be honest and say that so I understand where you are coming from.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I'm not babbling, I was answering your questions.

Yes, you are a woman and that is a fact. I am a man.

You can identify with woman issues and I can identify with men.

Rape isn't just a woman thang. You should read the article I posted.

But like I said, you are more concerned with women issues than men. I appreciate the honesty. I would rather you be honest and say that so I understand where you are coming from.

I read the article. I'm aware that men are victims of rape also, certainly not to the degree that women are, but rape is rape and inexcusable either way, and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law ... that is, unless the men are lying about being raped of course.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I read the article. I'm aware that men are victims of rape also, certainly not to the degree that women are, but rape is rape and inexcusable either way, and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law ... that is, unless the men are lying about being raped of course.

I wouldn't be surprised if some men were lying for the same reasons some women would. I don't think bad behavior is gender specific.

Like I said previously, the definition of rape has changed and that is one of the reasons we are seeing these huge stats for both men and women. I do believe it will be getting worst.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I wouldn't be surprised if some men were lying for the same reasons some women would. I don't think bad behavior is gender specific.

The majority of rapists are men, whether the victim is a man, woman or child. There are some cases of women raping men, but most rape of male victims is committed by male perps, and those figures are including rape in the military, rape in prisons and sexual abuse of male children. I was recently reading one case of a woman sneaking into a man's apartment and having sex with him while he was passed out drunk.

– 1 in 10 rape victims are men. (Rathus, Nevid and Fichner-Rathus, 568)
– In a survey answered by hundreds of rape and sexual assault support agencies, they estimated that 93.7 percent of male rape perpetrators are male and 6.3 percent were female. (Greenberg, Bruess and Haffner, 575)
– Many people do not believe that male rape by a female exists. However, penile erection can be achieved under emotional duress such as anger, fear, and pain even if the male does not wish it. (Greenberg, Bruess and Haffner, 576; Lips, 234)

Many people don't take sexual assault of men seriously. This is one of the reasons why men have a difficult time reporting what happened and why the rates of male sexual assault are thought to be significantly underreported. If a male survivor's friends think that male sexual assault is a joke, he will feel isolated and afraid to tell anyone. Sexual assault is a painful, traumatic experience for any victim.
Who can be a perpetrator of male sexual assault?

Anyone, regardless of gender or gender identity, can sexually assault a man. However, most sexual assaults against men are committed by other men, who actually identify themselves as heterosexual. It's important not to jump to the conclusion that man-against-man sexual assault only happens between men who are gay. Sexual assault is not about sexual desire or sexual orientation; it's about violence, control, and humiliation.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

The majority of rapists are men, whether the victim is a man, woman or child. There are some cases of women raping men, but most rape of male victims is committed by male perps, and those figures are including rape in the military, rape in prisons and sexual abuse of male children. I was recently reading one case of a woman sneaking into a man's apartment and having sex with him while he was passed out drunk.

I have to say I got a pretty good chuckle out of someone thanking your post as if it is a good thing that men and women are being raped.

The military problem is terrible, really terrible. I actually hear prison rape isn't as common as people think. As I said before, this isn't just a woman thang

Anyway, I digress...

Looking over the CDC pdf:

Now this stat would seem to be more inline with what people are routinely shouting out.

In the United States, an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes; an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey.

Now here is where we get into the interesting stuff.

An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences. The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.

I don't know about you, but "penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences" are typically considered rape by most people these days yet this is file under "Other forms of sexual violence".

and the male on male thing...

Male rape victims predominantly had male perpetrators, but other forms of sexual violence experienced by men were either perpetrated predominantly by women (i.e., being made to penetrate and sexual coercion) or split more evenly among male and female perpetrators (i.e., unwanted sexual contact and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences). In addition, male stalking victims also reported a more even mix of males and females who had perpetrated stalking against them.

Again, the bolded part would be considered rape by most people these days but filed under "Other Forms of Sexual Violence".

While I never thought women were doing this as much as men, there is much more women on men sexual violence than most people think.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Now this stat would seem to be more inline with what people are routinely shouting out.

Now here is where we get into the interesting stuff.

I don't know about you, but "penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences" are typically considered rape by most people these days yet this is file under "Other forms of sexual violence".

and the male on male thing...

Again, the bolded part would be considered rape by most people these days but filed under "Other Forms of Sexual Violence".

While I never thought women were doing this as much as men, there is much more women on men sexual violence than most people think.

I read over the CDC material, but it's my opinion that it is too broad in its definition of rape. As long as they put it in a category called "Other Forms of Sexual Violence", but honestly, I don't consider coercion to be rape, and some of the other scenarios like rape by extortion (the threat of saying bad things about someone if they don't have sex with them or any other coercion), for example. It's like someone asking over and over again and saying please .... the CDC was putting those in their statistics. That would probably put rape statistics up to 100% of the population being raped. I've had my share of men beg and plead and attempt to coerce, but I have not been raped.

There's really one definition of rape for my purposes, except when children are involved, and that is ... a sexual assault or act without consent. That consent needs to be for the act that is being performed (as in ... you can't switch the type of sex and still assume that you have consent) and that the person has to be able to give consent (as in not drugged or falling down drunk). That's my definition of rape.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I read over the CDC material, but it's my opinion that it is too broad in its definition of rape. As long as they put it in a category called "Other Forms of Sexual Violence", but honestly, I don't consider coercion to be rape, and some of the other scenarios like rape by extortion (the threat of saying bad things about someone if they don't have sex with them or any other coercion), for example. It's like someone asking over and over again and saying please .... the CDC was putting those in their statistics. That would probably put rape statistics up to 100% of the population being raped. I've had my share of men beg and plead and attempt to coerce, but I have not been raped.

There's really one definition of rape for my purposes, except when children are involved, and that is ... a sexual assault or act without consent. That consent needs to be for the act that is being performed (as in ... you can't switch the type of sex and still assume that you have consent) and that the person has to be able to give consent (as in not drugged or falling down drunk). That's my definition of rape.

You had me laughing at the begging comment. I wouldn't consider begging to be coercion.

Quick definition from UMich so we are on the same page.

Coercion is a tactic used by perpetrators to intimidate, trick or force someone to have sex with them without physical force.

Coercion is used as a means of forcing someone to do something that they do not want to do, a way to control them. This is an issue of power and control.

When coercion is used to convince a person to have sex or engage in sexual activities when they not want to do so, this is sexual assault, as defined by Michigan law.

Some examples of coercion are saying things like “If you loved me, you would”, threatening self-harm, or making someone feel as though they owe someone sex for buying them dinner, giving them gifts, etc.

Penetration is rape yet they filed it under Other. I'm not sure the difference they are assigning to each category to be honest. I thought penetration was a black and white thing when it came to what rape is yet that is part of the "Other forms" category. Maybe they are talking about a scenario of making the victim doing the penetration.

Anyway, I am probably more inline with your definition even though it gets murky when we talk about drinking/drugs and being able to consent.

The Ohio woman that got video recorded while hooking up and crying rape was also shown on video walking away and ordering a hot dog. lol

I mention that because I believe the judge used that as a reason she was able to consent. The scary part is the possibility of a different judge saying she was drunk enough to not be able to consent. No mention about the man being able to consent that I recall.

My take away from reading this stuff is I am careful about statistics and how they are presented. They are easily manipulated in order to show a particular agenda.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

You had me laughing at the begging comment. I wouldn't consider begging to be coercion.

Quick definition from UMich so we are on the same page.

Penetration is direct contact and if there's no consent, I call penetration rape. This ... I have a problem with being called rape.

Quote:
Coercion is a tactic used by perpetrators to intimidate, trick or force someone to have sex with them without physical force.

Coercion is used as a means of forcing someone to do something that they do not want to do, a way to control them. This is an issue of power and control.

When coercion is used to convince a person to have sex or engage in sexual activities when they not want to do so, this is sexual assault, as defined by Michigan law.

Some examples of coercion are saying things like "If you loved me, you would", threatening self-harm, or making someone feel as though they owe someone sex for buying them dinner, giving them gifts, etc.

Come on .... guys expecting sex because they just blew through a wad of cash is as common as fleas on dogs, but sorry ... it is not rape in my book. Somewhere along the way, women have to be responsible for saying no and meaning it, so there is absolutely no confusion on that point.

Then there's the Times article on the CDC article. Times says:

At no point are respondents given any instructions that could result in fewer reports of alleged victimization: for instance, that they should not include instances in which they had voluntary sex while drunk but not incapacitated.
The CDC's Rape Numbers Are Misleading

By the same token, reports of men "made to penetrate" ... I would want to know exactly what means of force was used to make them penetrate before I would make a determination of rape or otherwise. Now the guy I referred to that was passed out in his apartment and the local female drug addict broken into his apartment and was all over him ... that was clearly rape. He woke up during the rape and chased her out of the apartment, but at the time of penetration, he was passed out and not a willing participant by any stretch of the imagination.

If by "made to penetrate" means by the CDC definition, I don't buy it. Men and women both have free will, unless force or weapons are being used or they are incapacitated to the point that they cannot consent. The definition below goes too far in defining rape, IMO.

defined as being pressured into sexual activity by psychological means: lies or false promises, threats to end a relationship or spread negative gossip, or "making repeated requests" for sex and expressing unhappiness at being turned down.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Come on .... guys expecting sex because they just blew through a wad of cash is as common as fleas on dogs, but sorry ... it is not rape in my book. Somewhere along the way, women have to be responsible for saying no and meaning it, so there is absolutely no confusion on that point.

ha! That was my point on how these things are getting out of control. 10 years ago that was called dating, now it is "Other Sexual Violence".

There was a video of some girl walking across a bridge showing how all the men stared at her. Granted, they were doing some major staring but this is being characterized as harassment.

I didn't see any guy try to talk to her or try to touch her. They were just staring (some where staring a little too much).

That is the way things are going. Talking to the opposite sex will have to go through phone apps and lawyers. haha

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

ha! That was my point on how these things are getting out of control. 10 years ago that was called dating, now it is "Other Sexual Violence".

There was a video of some girl walking across a bridge showing how all the men stared at her. Granted, they were doing some major staring but this is being characterized as harassment.

I didn't see any guy try to talk to her or try to touch her. They were just staring (some where staring a little too much).

That is the way things are going. Talking to the opposite sex will have to go through phone apps and laywers. haha

That staring thing ... there's many times I've been in places that I wasn't comfortable or familiar in and there were groups of guys staring ... and not ordinary staring ... staring like they were about to score a steak dinner kind of staring. It was extremely frightening and uncomfortable, but it's not going to rise to assault, even though to the woman, it feels that she is in danger of being assaulted at any time.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

That staring thing ... there's many times I've been in places that I wasn't comfortable or familiar in and there were groups of guys staring ... and not ordinary staring ... staring like they were about to score a steak dinner kind of staring. It was extremely frightening and uncomfortable, but it's not going to rise to assault, even though to the woman, it feels that she is in danger of being assaulted at any time.

Me too. A white handsome bald guy can stand out in some countries.

I've traveled enough to have experienced that type of staring. It is unsettling but I don't consider it harassment even if I am one sexy dude.

I better log off and get some more work done. I enjoyed our chat once we got past the misunderstandings.

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Dan Riffle

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Me too. A white handsome bald guy can stand out in some countries.

I've traveled enough to have experienced that type of staring. It is unsettling but I don't consider it harassment even if I am one sexy dude.

Flurry of sarcastic posts in

3.....

2......

1......

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Me too. A white handsome bald guy can stand out in some countries.

I've traveled enough to have experienced that type of staring. It is unsettling but I don't consider it harassment even if I am one sexy dude.

.

Did you read that somewhere? How else would you know?

To be honest, I've had lots of women approach me. I just pretend like they really don't want to have sex with me...right then and there.

Usually, they say something suggestive like "Did you pay for that, Sir?" or "I need you to sign this registered letter".

Women.

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What if they're not stars? What if they are holes poked in the top of a container so we can breath?

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Dan Riffle

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

To be honest, I've had lots of women approach me. I just pretend like they really don't want to have sex with me...right then and there.

Usually, they say something suggestive like "Did you pay for that, Sir?" or "I need you to sign this registered letter".

Women.

Be honest, Claude, the last time a woman said something "suggestive" to you, it was probably more like, "Sir, this telegraph came for you," or, "Mr. Whitacre, your order of buggy whips has arrived."

Or, or:

"That wound looks infected. Might I suggest a good leeching?"

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Claude Whitacre 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Riffle

Be honest, Claude, Blah, blah, blah, blah.... whips..blah, blah (Blah blah)......BLAH!

Ahhhhh, whips...that takes me back.
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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Did you read that somewhere? How else would you know?

I watched that Andrew Zimmern show on the travel network

To be honest, I've had lots of women approach me. I just pretend like they really don't want to have sex with me...right then and there.

Usually, they say something suggestive like "Did you pay for that, Sir?" or "I need you to sign this registered letter".

Women.

Ah, that is sexual coercion the minute she brought up pay.

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Alexa Smith Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Come on .... guys expecting sex because they just blew through a wad of cash is as common as fleas on dogs, but sorry ... it is not rape in my book.

Noooooo, that's clearly not "rape"! Calling that "rape" is just devaluing and degrading the language, and other people's experiences that are "rape". Devaluing and degrading the language is something people need to avoid, when dealing with legal concepts and definitions, otherwise nobody benefits at all.

.
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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I have to say I got a pretty good chuckle out of someone thanking your post as if it is a good thing that men and women are being raped.

The military problem is terrible, really terrible. I actually hear prison rape isn't as common as people think. As I said before, this isn't just a woman thang

Anyway, I digress...

Looking over the CDC pdf:

Now this stat would seem to be more inline with what people are routinely shouting out.

Now here is where we get into the interesting stuff.

I don't know about you, but "penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences" are typically considered rape by most people these days yet this is file under "Other forms of sexual violence".

and the male on male thing...

Again, the bolded part would be considered rape by most people these days but filed under "Other Forms of Sexual Violence".

While I never thought women were doing this as much as men, there is much more women on men sexual violence than most people think.

There are folks like yourself that want to believe that these types of offenses are equal opportunity.

I thanked Susan because she pointed out that the vast majority of rapes etc., are committed by males and it's not even close.

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MissTerraK

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

There are folks like yourself that want to believe that these types of offenses are equal opportunity.

I thanked Susan because she pointed out that the vast majority of rapes etc., are committed by males and it's not even close.

Pssst! Her name is Suzanne...

Terra

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Tom B Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

Pssst! Her name is Suzanne...

Terra

Too funny!
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- bizgrower 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap
  
  Too funny!
  
  Her nick name "Terra-izer" comes from when she as an English teacher.
  
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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

There are folks like yourself that want to believe that these types of offenses are equal opportunity.

I thanked Susan because she pointed out that the vast majority of rapes etc., are committed by males and it's not even close.

You mean you thanked Suzanne because she posted stats that fit your narrative. Never mind how the stats are presented or what they really mean. I posted stats that show there is much more happening that doesn't fit into you black and white world.

I never said anything about equal opportunity when it came to violence but nice try. In fact, I stated I thought rapes were committed more by men than woman. I am sure that also was overlook because it didn't fit within your view of my comments.

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BigFrank Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Would be rapists and general morons who pretend not to know what no means, choose your victims carefully.

While you have them down, please lop-off their 'nards and make a change purse out of their sac.

Cheers. - Frank
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discrat 10 years ago

Originally Posted by positivenegative

No-one's making disagreements personal - I was responding to pathetic misinterpretations that were made regarding my earlier comment.

Sorry but that sentence in of itself sounds a little personal to me, quite frankly
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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Ok, if I have to spell it out to you, so be it. She consented to the same kind of sex that she had consented to before ... vaginal sex. She did not consent to anal sex and many women do not. The moment that he attempted anal sex, she withdrew her consent by telling him no.

He did not stop until he was damned good and ready to. He eventually stopped. He did not stop doing what he didn't have consent to do until "eventually" which was some time after she had said no, but by no means not immediately after she said no.

I really that's it's beyond absurd that you think it's beyond absurd that anal sex continuing after NO is not rape. That's why I said we will simply have to agree to disagree. You apparently think that just because she had sex with him before and was going to have sex with him this particular night, that he could stick it where ever he wanted to stick it, whether she agreed or not.

WOW, why did she put herself in that position? Why would HE do it with someone not willing? I think SOMETHING stinks(pun intended).

Steve

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Tom B Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

WOW, why did she put herself in that position? Why would HE do it with someone not willing? I think SOMETHING stinks(pun intended).

Steve

Steve, that isn't the right questions to be asking, imo. I agree with Suzanne that if the girl wanted to stop they both needed to stop.

The disagreement I am having, with Suzanne, is if the guy continued until he was good and ready to stop. It isn't a clear case of what his intent was. Yet some here automatically assumes the guy's intent was rape.

The story is based on one sided interpretation of what happened. A lot times, what we interpret isn't the complete reality of what happened.

It seems the same people who think people should have the right to due justice and innocence until proven guilty throws those ideas out the window when it comes to the subject of rape. That line if thinking is a slippery slope.
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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

That would pay off some student loans. j/k

The reason I dislike stories like this one is that it weakens the case of women who are attacked and raped through no fault of their own. The "fault" is an arguing point but my opinion is that you weaken your case when you have an intimate relationship with the man or willingly get in bed with him.

The crazy thing to me about this story is the woman was willing. Had this man simply assumed the "position" the woman expected, I guess this would have been consensual sex. Maybe it's a good idea to get to know a man before you get nekkid with him? Totally new concept?

It's a federal complaint .... not a lawsuit. As a school that receives federal funds, they are obligated to abide by federal law and can lose their federal funding if they do not and be fined. I would seriously doubt that the rape victims receive a dime from a federal complaint. If money was their motive, they would have done far better to get a lawyer and file a civil suit.

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thunderbird

10 years ago

I notice that most of the students in my son's martial arts school are females. I wonder why that is...

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I notice that most of the students in my son's martial arts school are females. I wonder why that is...

Are you saying we have more rapists now than when you or I was kids?

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Are you saying we have more rapists now than when you or I was kids?

I was just sharing an observation, not providing an answer which would only be a guess on my part.

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I was just sharing an observation, not providing an answer which would only be a guess on my part.

It sounded like you had an opinion based on your observation. I don't understand why you would post that statement unless you had an opinion and I was interested in it.

Like I said previously, we have only heard one side of this story so most of what is posted is conjecture and opinion.

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thunderbird

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

It sounded like you had an opinion based on your observation. I don't understand why you would post that statement unless you had an opinion and I was interested in it.

Like I said previously, we have only heard one side of this story so most of what is posted is conjecture and opinion.

I posted it because there are certainly situations where expertise in martial arts could be beneficial to a woman. Much of the time, society's reactions to injustices such as sexual assaults are ineffectual at best and often turn into mental aerobics and cerebral posturing that benefit abusers more than victims.

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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I posted it because there are certainly situations where expertise in martial arts could be beneficial to a woman. Much of the time, society's reactions to injustices such as sexual assaults are ineffectual at best and often turn into mental aerobics and cerebral posturing that benefit abusers more than victims.

I agree. Women need to have martial arts training. So do kids. People can't count on someone else being around 24/7 to protect you. If someone attacks me, I annihilate them. Not worried about breaking bones or killing them - worry about putting them on the ground and making sure they will never breed.

One more thing that is a problem that martial arts helps with is that people who are victimized (other than the date raped type) are usually scared crapless when someone attacks them. This kind of lack of fortitude shows up and attackers are actually quite good at picking out easy targets. Martial arts conditions the fear out of people and replaces it with the mentality that allows you to defend yourself - indignation at being attacked rather than fear of the attacker. This attitude also shows and when someone has confidence and fortitude, they are much less likely to be attacked in the first place.

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When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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bizgrower

10 years ago

Kay posted the below article previously:

Besides him not stopping after she said no to an act she never consented to, it's rape because he used force and control over her body to go where she did not want him to go.

Frustrated by Columbia

"According to the police report, Sulkowicz had had consensual sex with Nungesser twice before the alleged rape. Sulkowicz said that on the night of Aug. 27, 2012, she and Nungesser started to have consensual sex again, when suddenly things changed.

According to the report, Nungesser “hit her [Sulkowicz] across the face, choked her, and pushed her knees onto her chest and leaned on her knees to keep them up.” He then “grabbed [Sulkowicz’s] wrists and penetrated her anally.”

Sulkowicz reported to police that she told Nungesser to stop, but that he did not. She “struggled with [Nungesser] and tried to push his arms away,” according to the police report, but “[Nungesser] kept going and suddenly stopped without ejaculating.”

Edit: Also, his striking and choking her constitutes assault.

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College rape survivor will carry her mattress around campus until her rapist is expelled

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