The tight link between unions, the middle class and U.S. inequality in two charts

10 years ago

The private unions are a sham.

They should be taken over by the government and there should be a national police unit dedicated solely to containing unions.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

One could argue that's it's an almost direct reflection of the effect unions have had on our modern economy.

At one time in this country, there were few workplace safety laws, few restraints on employers, and incredibly exploitive working conditions that ranged from slavery, to share cropping, to putting children in dangerous working conditions. Unions, to their everlasting credit, helped play an important role in leveling the playing field for workers.

However, as the laws changed, there was less and less need for unions. Because of that, union membership shrank. In response, the unions became more explicitly involved in politics. Over time, they managed to co-opt the Democratic Party, pull their strings, and rewrite our labor laws in their favor.

1) Unions are severely damaging whole industries:

How is it that GM and Chrysler got into such lousy shape that they had to be bailed out? There's a simple answer: The unions. The massive pensions the car companies paid out raised their costs so much that they were limited to building more expensive cars to try to get their money back. They couldn't even do a great job of building those cars because utterly ridiculous union rules prevented them from using their labor efficiently. America created the automobile industry, but American unions are strangling it to death. Unions also wrecked the steel and textile industries and have helped drive manufacturing jobs overseas. They're crippling the airline industry and, of course, we can't forget that...

2) Unions are ruining public education:

However, the real problem with our education system in this country is the teachers’ unions. They do everything possible to prevent schools not only from firing lousy teachers, but also from rewarding talented teachers. Merit pay? The unions hate it. Private schools? Even though everyone knows they deliver a better education than our public schools, unions fight to keep as many kids as possible locked in failing public schools.

3) Unions are costing you billions of tax dollars:

Instead of looking out for your interests, Democrats try to hire as many government workers as possible, pay them as much as possible, and give them benefits that are as generous as possible, all so that union workers will do more to get them re-elected.

4) Unions are fundamentally anti-democratic:

How in the world did we get to the point where people can be forced to join a union just to get a job at certain places? Then, after they're dragooned into the union, they have no choice other than to pay dues that are used for political activities which the unwilling dues-paying member may oppose.

5) Government unions are bankrupting cities and states:

Yet it comes as little surprise that the same profligacy that pervades the corridors of federal power infects this country’s 87,000 state, county and municipal governments and school districts. By 2013, the amount of retirement money promised to employees of these public entities will exceed cash on hand by more than a trillion dollars.

5 Reasons Unions Are Bad For America - John Hawkins - Page full

Cheers

-don

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seasoned

10 years ago

TL,

YOU talk about "the 1%".
YOU talk about how "The RICH are....".
YOU talk about healthcare costing so much.
YOU talk about "higher wages" *******BECAUSE OF INFLATION WHETHER YOU ADMIT IT OR NOT*******!
YOU talk about "the special interests".
YOU talk about "the lobbyists".

Guess who are the BIGGEST lobbyists, special interests, increase inflation, increase healthcare costs, and are in the 1%? ******UNIONS******! You are HAPPY with the extra money they getyou EVEN as they have you pay so much in dues and raise prices. HECK, it was earlier tied to the MOB!

And the unions LOVE claiming that they did EVERYTHING! They even claim they created the weekends! SERIOUSLY! And the unions did NOT create education, or even PUBLIC education. They DESTROYED IT! AMAZING! Every time people start talking about testing teachers, the teachers go on strike!

Steve

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HeySal

10 years ago

At their inception, unions were a blessing to the US workers. Then they got corrupt, political, etc. and so on and started to become burdensome.

When GM started talks about pulling their shops out of Detroit, Flint, and Saginaw, MI - the unions had gotten way too powerful. GM would try to fire a worker for things like (and this is literally, not figurative) coming to work so high or drunk that they couldn't do their jobs - bad cars were resulting from workers so blitzed out that some would literally fall down or pass out on the lines. Some of these workers were serial offenders - getting fired then the Union would force the company to take them back. You can't keep a business going when you turn it into a social service for malfunctioning people. The unions also started extracting higher wages than was realistic. When someone on a production line that can't even read is making around $40 bucks an hour (that's with bene's) - about two to three times what the average wage was for skilled or high level education jobs in the same region - they've gone too far. Nobody could stop them, though - so the businesses moved and that's when we really started to fall apart.

When I started college - I was looking at a choice of getting an education so I could have interesting work................or going to GM, standing on a line bored out of my skull for 8 or more hours a day and having full benes, and enough money to support a fairly well off lifestyle or afford me a reserved but adequate lifestyle with a lot of investment and saving potential

That's a lot to ask of a no skill required job. As we can see now - it wasn't a sustainable plan. Unfortunately, now that unions are losing their grip, employers are drifting back to slave holder mentalities. It would be nice if we could get over greed on both sides and strike a sustainable balance. Legislators could probably work that one, but they are too corrupted now to be able to depend on them to solve anything but how to pocket another 6 figures personally while in office.

Unf

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Sal
When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
Beyond the Path

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

I never said unions were perfect but the historical record shows...

Unions Are Good for the American Economy | Center for American Progress Action Fund

...two reasons listed in the article are...

...they help push up all wages and benefits for the entire work force and are ultimately good for the entire economy.

And IMHO...

...the average small business person would benefit greatly from a robust economy - in which strong unions and their societal benefits are more likely to help create verses a society with declining and weak union membership.

The historical evidence is clear:

The American economy and the American worker are in much, much better shape when unions are strong.

Where Are Small Business People On This?

IMHO, I also think small business persons are split down the middle on the issues of compensation etc., whereas half are short sighted, selfish and actually believe that crushing workers is a key to a strong American economy and also long term viability of their business verses those on the other side of the fence.

I haven't seen a poll so opinion could be split like it was at the start of the American Revolution when 1/3 of Americans wanted to break free, 1/3 wanted to stay with GB and the other third didn't care one way or the other.

It is said the Benedict Arnold affair seriously changed the equation and most of the fence straddlers joined the cause for independence.

And...

For those that say unions are too close to one particular party I say...

IMHO, one of the reasons unions joined with and work with that particular party are some of the same reasons Hollywood virtually linked up with that same party.

The other party has been the enemy of the very concept of unions since day one and/or has evolved into their mortal enemies.

IMHO...

If some certain people had been in power during the rise of American unions, the great American middle class would have never come into being since they probably would have outlawed unions in the first place or enacted laws that would have made it much, much harder for their formation, and unions were a huge part of the creation of the American middle class and the post WW2 boom.

Here's an interesting article from Business Insider which lists all the common perceived negatives regarding today's unions but also comes to the conclusion that....

We May Need Labor Unions After All - Business Insider

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Dennis Gaskill

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

unions ... help push up all wages and benefits for the entire work force and are ultimately good for the entire economy.

Isn't another name for that . . . inflation?

Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned one of the greatest contributions unions have made to workers interests, which is in the area of worker safety. This is one of their most important achievements, and one that is hard to find fault with.

I have mixed feelings about unions. On one hand they have been good financially for the average worker. On the other hand, their demands are sometimes unreasonable and unsustainable.

They also make it hard to get rid incompetent workers. When I was a paper mill worker a couple decades ago, we had one person who was just dangerous to work with. She was careless, and caused several injuries to herself and others, and she caused thousands of dollars worth of damage. It should have been a no brainer to just get rid of her, but the union fought it every step of the way. We also had a guy that came to work drunk regularly and the union fought getting rid of him.

One other thing I didn't like about the union is them taking my money and donating it to political candidates I didn't support.

I think unions are needed, but I think many of them need a philosophical overhaul. Some seem to have an anti-company stance, rather than a "what's best for everyone" stance.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned one of the greatest contributions unions have made to workers interests, which is in the area of worker safety.

I hit on workplace safety in my reply, the second reply on the thread. See the first sentence of the very first paragraph of the quote I posted...

At one time in this country, there were few workplace safety laws, few restraints on employers, and incredibly exploitive working conditions that ranged from slavery, to share cropping, to putting children in dangerous working conditions. Unions, to their everlasting credit, helped play an important role in leveling the playing field for workers.

http://www.warriorforum.com/off-topi...ml#post9523725

Cheers

-don

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seasoned

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Isn't another name for that . . . inflation?

Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned one of the greatest contributions unions have made to workers interests, which is in the area of worker safety. This is one of their most important achievements, and one that is hard to find fault with.

GEE, The department of labor has OSHA! Now let's see what wikipedia says about it! HMMMM,

Congress established the agency under the Occupational Safety and Health Act, which President Richard M. Nixon signed into law on December 29, 1970. OSHA's mission is to "assure safe and healthful working conditions for working men and women by setting and enforcing standards and by providing training, outreach, education and assistance".[2] The agency is also charged with enforcing a variety of whistleblower statutes and regulations. OSHA is currently headed by Assistant Secretary of Labor David Michaels.

WOW, AGAIN, that MALIGNED president did this!

I have mixed feelings about unions. On one hand they have been good financially for the average worker. On the other hand, their demands are sometimes unreasonable and unsustainable.

They also make it hard to get rid incompetent workers. When I was a paper mill worker a couple decades ago, we had one person who was just dangerous to work with. She was careless, and caused several injuries to herself and others, and she caused thousands of dollars worth of damage. It should have been a no brainer to just get rid of her, but the union fought it every step of the way. We also had a guy that came to work drunk regularly and the union fought getting rid of him.

One other thing I didn't like about the union is them taking my money and donating it to political candidates I didn't support.

I think unions are needed, but I think many of them need a philosophical overhaul. Some seem to have an anti-company stance, rather than a "what's best for everyone" stance.

BTW do you know what the #1 cause of accidents has been throughout history WORLD WIDE!?!?!?!?!? "INCOMPETENT WORKERS"!!!!!!!!!!!!! SERIOUSLY, you could have the SAFEST environment ANYWHERE, and ONE incompetent worker can kill everyone in a building!

Steve

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seasoned

10 years ago

TL,Don't you see that you are fighting the SAME battle that people LONG ago said was won? They raise the rates only to raise them again! Good for the economy means that if wages go up, it is OUTSIDE of the economy so *******WAGES GO UP*******! But it is so deep INSIDE the economy that it causes inflation and you end up back where you started. I have suggested before, as an example, thatwe could give everyone a million dollars. WHAT do you think that would do?

I'll tell you, and we really HAVE seen it happen on progressively larger scales, so I don't know why the question needs to be raised. The value of the currency drops so that the net effect is NOTHING!!!!!!! THAT is why the POOREST american today may get a veritable FORTUNE, by 1900 standards, for welfare, and STILL have trouble living.

HEY, look at Japan with all the HUGE price tags! Japan is about the only civilized country that has a currency that isn't even worth like 2 cents, in today's money. Of course, OUR currency is only worth about 2 cents, compared to what it was worth when the unions started. Or you can look at the weimar republic. There are at least 3 major ways that those events led to WWII and all that followed! In fact, they called that the 2nd reich!

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

TL,Don't you see that you are fighting the SAME battle that people LONG ago said was won? They raise the rates only to raise them again! Good for the economy means that if wages go up, it is OUTSIDE of the economy so *******WAGES GO UP*******! But it is so deep INSIDE the economy that it causes inflation and you end up back where you started. I have suggested before, as an example, thatwe could give everyone a million dollars. WHAT do you think that would do?

I'll tell you, and we really HAVE seen it happen on progressively larger scales, so I don't know why the question needs to be raised. The value of the currency drops so that the net effect is NOTHING!!!!!!! THAT is why the POOREST american today may get a veritable FORTUNE, by 1900 standards, for welfare, and STILL have trouble living.

HEY, look at Japan with all the HUGE price tags! Japan is about the only civilized country that has a currency that isn't even worth like 2 cents, in today's money. Of course, OUR currency is only worth about 2 cents, compared to what it was worth when the unions started. Or you can look at the weimar republic. There are at least 3 major ways that those events led to WWII and all that followed! In fact, they called that the 2nd reich!

Steve

I'm not going round and round with you but the value of the American currency is a totally different issue.

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seasoned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

I'm not going round and round with you but the value of the American currency is a totally different issue.

NOPE! IT ISN'T! HECK, you can even see how it started to skyrocket when they got big.

Steve
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whateverpedia

10 years ago

Taking a leaf out of this clip from The Life Of Brian...

What have the Romans ever done for us - YouTube

.... back in 2007 after a concerted effort to smash unions in Australia by the government of the day, Australian unions released this video:

What Have The Unions Ever Done For Us? - YouTube

So effective was this (and other campaigns), that the government of the day lost the 2007 election by a considerable amount, and the leader of the incumbent party (the Prime Minister) lost his seat in Parliament as well. This was only the second time in Australian history that a sitting Prime Minister has lost his seat.

Anyway, it looks like American unions have taken a leaf out of the same book and released this video in 2011:

What Have American Unions Ever Done For Us? -...

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

Here's a bunch of pro and con images/cartoons regarding unions and some are a hoot...

https://www.google.com/search?q=unio...w=1008&bih=649

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seasoned

10 years ago

Like I said, they take credit for EVERYTHING! I'm surprised they don't throw in sunny days, and free water, in the form of rain.

If the wages are 30% higher than all else, WHY are they always striking? If they have employer healthcare, WHY go for OC!?!? HECK! Apparently the one that DID help create the employer based insurance deal was a president on the OTHER side that the unions malign a LOT. They overlooked OTHER stuff he did as well. Sick days also vary, and maternity leave, etc... hasgone through the courts WITHOUT unions. And I DID say they took credit for weekends.

As for such a great workforce? WHY did we have that MAJOR recall at GM? It was a MAJOR one due to a HUGE mismanagement problem that is DEEP, and covers cars in ALL areas buit over about 12 years. It may be the biggest recall in history ANYWHERE, and it was due to an INCREDIBLY bad system! Why do the teachers go on strike when you want to fire one for being incompetent, or give THEM tests?

OH, I could go on and on!

Steve

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TLTheLiberator

10 years ago

This is interesting...

Nation's LARGEST Union Pension Fund Sends A Shiver Through Hedge Funds

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The tight link between unions, the middle class and U.S. inequality in two charts

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