Vermont's largest city now using 100% renewable energy sources

Banned 10 years ago

Good ol' Vermont...

As shown below, Vermont’s renewable energy programs, such as SPEED, are wasteful, because they produce energy at 3 - 4 times New England annual average grid prices, which is unsustainable, especially in a near-zero-growth economy. Scarce capital should be spent on increased energy efficiency, not wasteful renewable energy programs. It would be a much better way forward for Vermont, as it would reduce the energy bills of households and businesses.

Vermont Standard of Living: The Vermont cost of living is about 20% greater than of the US, whereas, in 2012, Vermont’s real household income was about 3% greater than of the US, meaning the standard of living in Vermont is already about 17% lower than in the US. See below data and URLs.

Household Electric Rates: Vermont’s household electric rates used to be the lowest in New England, but have been rising faster than of other New England states and are now the 4th highest in the US, after Connecticut, Alaska and Hawaii.

Vermont and Renewables Prices | The Energy Collective

Cheers

-don

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HeySal

10 years ago

Don - I'm not sure what to make of that.

Number 1 -- propaganda is going to be strong against their move to renewable energy. Think of all the elitists and terror groups that will lose masses of money if we don't consume lots and lots of oil.

Number 2 - It really costs to set up a whole new infrastructure. Is the elevated cost a permanent one or will it shift to become cheaper in the long run? "Renewable" suggests to me that the initial hike will drop eventually.

Number 3 - Vermont has done a pretty good job of maintaining a healthy ecosystem. Isn't a rate hike worth saving the ecosystems that are being destroyed by other forms of energy? Cost is a real moot point once you desertificate your land and kill off bio-diversity.

Number 4 - doesn't it create jobs to create a new energy grid? How many people people are employed now that were not or visa versa? Isn't it possible that they put people previously unemployed to work?

I don't see anywhere in these quotes where the changes are not well justified. Sometimes a price increase isn't the only issue we have to look at.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

@ Sal

Check out the entire article, it is extremely lengthy and it gets very detailed. The article is maybe 20 pages or more and has cited dozens of sources, and to be honest, I could have pulled many, many quotes from it.

Vermont's government makes lots of high-sounding pronouncements regarding energy efficiency, but does not practice it!!

Vermont State Government buildings: average 107,000 Btu/sq ft/yr for heating, cooling and electricity. Energy efficient buildings would use about 25,000 Btu/sq ft/yr.

Wind turbines adversely impact the fetuses of pregnant women and other fauna species susceptible to low frequency vibrations from wind turbines, a.k.a. infrasound with frequencies less than 20 Hz. Infrasound cannot be heard, but is felt. Infrasound travels much longer distances than audible sounds that have higher frequencies.

Efficiency Vermont spends about 45% of its budget on Salaries, Benefits, Payroll Taxes, etc., for its 180-person staff, plus General & Administration. The other 55% is used to subsidize energy efficiency projects. That is a very inefficient way to do energy efficiency.

By the end of 2013, Vermont had subsidized about $538 million of solar and wind investments (about $220 million for solar + about $318 million for wind), over the past 3.5 years, but had practically nothing to show for it; about 0.96% from solar and about 3.89% from wind, for a total of 4.86% of Vermont’s annual ELECTRICAL ENERGY consumption, or about 4.86/3 = 1.62% of ALL annual energy consumed by Vermont.

Burlington is a small city of like 42,000...the costs associated with powering a major US city with 100% renewable energy like wind, solar and bio will be off the charts using current technology, if it is even possible. To switch the entire US grid at this time is impossible and would probably bankrupt us all if it could be done.

I have always supported Nuclear Power (I did attend Nuclear Power School, after-all) and Vermont in the past has received the largest percentage of energy of any state in the nation from nuke plants. When they were less focused on green, Vermont power costs were relatively low.

It appears as if the costs are rising in part due to the intense focus on greener renewables. I am all for using the greenest energy we can --> when it's viable, feasible and relatively cost effective.

Again, I am all for super-green energy when the time and technology is right, and when it's done the correct way. For very small communities, in certain areas of the country, pure green makes sense... If the subsidies are not massive, and the costs stay in-line with the rest of the nation's costs then more power to them!

Cheers

-don

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Kay King

10 years ago

In Vermont, a milestone in green-energy efforts - Metro - The Boston Globe

I think it's an achievement but as is often the case there's a bit of paperwork maneuvering involved. The article above is more detailed than DailyKos.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

In Vermont, a milestone in green-energy efforts - Metro - The Boston Globe

I think it's an achievement but as is often the case there's a bit of paperwork maneuvering involved. The article above is more detailed than DailyKos.

Yeah, I have read that article...the old REC game.

But on average, they do get the green job done...

Cheers

-don

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Kay King

10 years ago

Isn't a rate hike worth saving the ecosystems that are being destroyed by other forms of energy?

It depends on whether you pay it or not, doesn't it? I think that's something to keep in mind. It's easy to say rate hikes don't matter - but not easy for the family struggling to pay for heat and cooling.

In my area a new water facility purchased our treatment plant. It was hailed as a more environmentally friendly company - water would be much better quality...blah blah. Our water/sewage rates rose by 40%...wasn't worth it to me.

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Yes, that means when they have no wind, or noteworthy amounts of sun, a lot of their houses will be without power, (Au, has had a few days to a week without any wind, on overcast days)!

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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by tagiscom

Yes, that means when they have no wind, or noteworthy amounts of sun, a lot of their houses will be without power, (Au, has had a few days to a week without any wind, on overcast days)!

Doesn't happen very often around here or Burlington which is about 160 miles from here. It's very hilly with lots of big lakes, in fact Burlington sits on the east side of Lake Champlain. I ride my mc a lot in Vt., Mass., New Hampshire, and New York, and see wind turbines and solar farms all over the place.

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tagiscom

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Doesn't happen very often around here or Burlington which is about 160 miles from here. It's very hilly with lots of big lakes, in fact Burlington sits on the east side of Lake Champlain. I ride my mc a lot in Vt., Mass., New Hampshire, and New York, and see wind turbines and solar farms all over the place.

fair enough, but would you want one of those power off days to be on Christmas eve.

Unless the greenies, give a free backup generator, and a fuel voucher?

Seems that we need to strangle some greenies, and Pol.... to get some to build a zero point generator!

Australia, has one, that is proven, but is bought out by our gov, and used in military or remote areas only!

THESE THINGS ARE REAL! AND THEY WORK!

But as usual it is the bloody oil in the ground that keeps it suppressed, or keeps millionaires or billionaires, mouths shut!

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Number 4 - doesn't it create jobs to create a new energy grid? How many people people are employed now that were not or visa versa? Isn't it possible that they put people previously unemployed to work?

Vermont saw the nation's largest per capita gains last year for the number of solar-related jobs, leading the country in solar employment for 2013, according to an industry research group.
The Solar Foundation released an annual report Monday that ranked the Vermont No. 1 in the nation for solar jobs per capita. The state added nearly 1,000 solar jobs in 2013, totaling about 1,300, according to the foundation's website.

The report predicts solar employment will grow by 15 percent next year across the country, building on a 50 percent increase since 2010.

Installation costs for solar have decreased by 50 percent since 2010.

"Though these price reductions continue to impact certain industry sectors in different and sometimes disruptive ways, they continue to be widely and consistently cited as the leading driver of solar capacity growth," the report states.

Gov. Peter Shumlin issued a statement Tuesday on the report.

"This is a testament to the success of our renewable energy businesses, our forward-thinking utilities, and our innovative state policies," Shumlin said. "When we build solar projects in Vermont, we not only create local clean energy for the grid, we create jobs and economic benefits for our communities."

Vermont has most solar jobs per capita in U.S. - VTDigger

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ThomM 10 years ago

We have National Grid here now Don, since they bought out Niagara Mohawk.
The two hurricanes (Irene and Sandy) we got here in recent years really caused a lot of havoc, normally we just get the outer edge of hurricanes but not recently. There are still people displaced thanks to those two storms and the gov. spending millions of the relief funds advertising what a great job he was doing helping those people
Ice storms and early snows get us the most. It depends on how wide spread they are as to how long we'll loose power. The last time I lost power here for a real extended time period was in the early 90's or late 80's. That was for a couple weeks in either Nov. or Dec. At the time I was going to college 50 miles away and taking care of my mother. We used Coleman stoves to cook on and a little Coleman camp heater for heat. For light we had kerosene lamps.
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ThomM

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Vermont has most solar jobs per capita in U.S. - VTDigger

I think you would like Vermont Tim. The people have some great attitudes. First it's almost ingrained in them from birth that if you want something done, you do it yourself. They are a very independent people who at the same time will help anyone who needs it without being asked. They are also pretty laid back and go with a "if you don't bother me, I won't bother you" vibe.
The scenery is incredible as is the local foods and beverages.
They have goats milk caramel Goat's Milk Caramel
Some incredible beer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewin...otable_Brewers
and even blueberry wine Charlotte Village Winery
Then there's the cheese Cheddar Cheese and Other Dairy Products from Vermont | Cabot Creamery
Cabot is one of Grace Potter and the Nocturnals sponsors

I know none of that had to do with the topic or your link, I just thought you would find it a little interesting

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

Sounds really nice Thom. I would love to spend some time exploring that part of the country.

Originally Posted by ThomM

I think you would like Vermont Tim. The people have some great attitudes. First it's almost ingrained in them from birth that if you want something done, you do it yourself. They are a very independent people who at the same time will help anyone who needs it without being asked. They are also pretty laid back and go with a "if you don't bother me, I won't bother you" vibe.
The scenery is incredible as is the local foods and beverages.
They have goats milk caramel Goat's Milk Caramel
Some incredible beer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewin...otable_Brewers
and even blueberry wine Charlotte Village Winery
Then there's the cheese Cheddar Cheese and Other Dairy Products from Vermont | Cabot Creamery
Cabot is one of Grace Potter and the Nocturnals sponsors

I know none of that had to do with the topic or your link, I just thought you would find it a little interesting

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HeySal

10 years ago

Thanks Don - preoccupied and didn't even notice a live link, lol. I'll check it out when I get the chance. The subject is, I believe, a crucial one, and one I'm really not well enough knowledgeable about. Technology just isn't my strong suit, but I know we have to do something about our energy systems as we're running at a deficit and our population just continues to grow.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

@ tagiscom

They purchase energy from traditional power sources when needed, they don't go without. When they produce excess energy they sell it off to other utility companies. On average they sell more energy than they purchase.

Cheers

-don

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ThomM

10 years ago

Shane like Don said the get power from traditional sources on off days.
Though it doesn't happen as often as it did, we still have periods of no electricity almost always caused by storms. It's just something we have to be prepared for here in the Northeast. I'm not talking about for just a few hours either, but for days at a time.
Though Burlington is the biggest city in Vermont to go green, many smaller communities around here have been green for years. Green Island has it's own water turbines on the Hudson River and has had them for as long as I can remember. There are towns out in the country that have converted old grist mills into power stations using the streams and creeks (or kills if you prefer) to supply them power. I even know of houses near me that have small turbines in the Posten Kill to supply them with electricity. Heck the ice plant my father ran in Tory got it's power from the Posten Kill.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

Though it doesn't happen as often as it did, we still have periods of no electricity almost always caused by storms. It's just something we have to be prepared for here in the Northeast.

Heck, you gotta be prepared for a ton of outages if you are a ComEd customer and live near Chicago!

No storms needed as old infrastructure is a really big problem in several areas.

Town says it has suffered 1,377 blackouts in 2000-07

Deerfield sues ComEd - Chicago Tribune

I lived in Rockford which is not too far away, and while we did not have any of the pure blackouts that Deerfield did, we always saw very slow repairs from ComEd when storms or high winds would hit. Many, many times I had to rent a big generator as the power outages would often last more than a day. The longest I went was week without power and we were a fairly decent sized city (400,000+ in the county). And no, we were not in a hurricane zone.

ComEd would never come close to having enough crews to adequately do the job and we would have to rely on repair folks coming in from all over the country to bail them out. We had very little enforcement of trees not interfering with power lines in that area, so every time the wind blew relatively hard the power lines would start dropping and transformers would start popping

Everytime the power went out I would have to make sure 25-50 fish tanks would stay oxygenated 24/7 and (sometimes) heated as well, and usually a small generator would not adequately cover the needs of my place. I was lucky that I lived close to a rental agency that had some decent sized equipment available.

Yeah, I probably should have installed a home backup system but I never wanted to part with that kind of money!

Cheers

-don

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thunderbird

10 years ago

The Smittens I Hate Vermont - YouTube

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

@ Thom

Yeah, ice storms get us sometimes as well. We don't get hurricanes but the last two cities I have lived in have received major flooding that wiped out entire sections of both cities. Rockford got hit with two 100 year floods in back-to-back years (2006 & 2007), and Cedar Rapids got hit with a devastating 500 year flood in 2008. Luckily in Rockford I lived up the hill from the flooded area (by just a few houses), but just below me many square blocks of homes had to be torn down and the city ended up converting much of that area into green space.

The Cedar Rapids flood was much more massive and the home my wife grew up in, and where her parents were still living, had 9 feet of water in the first floor, and of course the basement was filled. It was a scene reminiscent of Katrina. The City of Cedar Rapids did the same thing as Rockford in some areas, tore down the houses and businesses and converted some of the areas to green space.

Displacement, no power and the like happens all over the country, unfortunately. Check out the water depth on the multilevel parking garage in downtown CR.

This is a shot I took from my intersection (in Rockford) down my street after the waters from the 2nd 100 year flood had receded substantially. This is a shot of the higher ground, not down the hill where it was really, really bad. Most of us in the area never believed a tiny creek way down the hill would ever flood up to our neighborhood. We were wrong!

This is a shot from my intersection (I lived on a corner) down the hill and again after the water had receded substantially. Just to the left of where you can see was the real deep water, where several square blocks of homes were eventually torn down and converted to green space.

As we know, it does not take a hurricane to do severe damage and cause major displacement. The Rockford floods were due to a slightly clogged up Keith Creek, and the Cedar Rapids flood was due to the Cedar River hitting levels nobody ever dreamed it would hit.

The Cedar River crested at 31.1 feet and the previous highest recorded crest was 20 feet (in 1929) and it flooded areas of the town that nobody ever dreamed could flood. Nobody. Flood stage is 12 feet...

5,238 homes were damaged, 940 businesses were damaged, 310 city facilities were damaged, 99 non-profits and churches were damaged, and 1300 square blocks were affected (10 square miles).

It was the 6th largest disaster declaration in the history of FEMA and the total damage was estimated somewhere near 3 billion dollars or more. 14% of this good sized city were under water after that 2008 flood.

Displaced and no power and no gas (or sewer) were the words of the year(s) and unfortunately that was the end of the neighborhood that my wife's parents lived in. After several months (or longer) the houses were condemned and then they were eventually torn down...nothing there now except green space.

My wife was a tad bit upset when we sold our boat year and that's not a joke!

Cheers

-don

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ThomM

10 years ago

We get a lot of flooding around here also Dan.
Mostly it's the usual stuff from spring thaws, though we have had times where it was all do to heavy rain.
My basement will flood in the spring and after a heavy or continuous rain. I'm at the bottom of a hill that has a spring at the top and another one just down the road from me. There are as many underground streams around here as there are hair on my head. Starting at my house and going around the west side of the hill, everyone has water issues in their basements. The water drains into a swamp, that drains into a pond, that drains into the Posten Kill.

Originally Posted by ForumGuru

@ Thom

Yeah, ice storms get us sometimes as well. We don't get hurricanes but the last two cities I have lived in have received major flooding that wiped out entire sections of both cities. Rockford got hit with two 100 year floods in back-to-back years (2006 & 2007), and Cedar Rapids got hit with a devastating 500 year flood in 2008. Luckily in Rockford I lived up the hill from the flooded area (by just a few houses), but just below me many square blocks of homes had to be torn down and the city ended up converting much of that area into green space.

The Cedar Rapids flood was much more massive and the home my wife grew up in, and where her parents were still living, had 9 feet of water in the first floor, and of course the basement was filled. It was a scene reminiscent of Katrina. The City of Cedar Rapids did the same thing as Rockford in some areas, tore down the houses and businesses and converted some of the areas to green space.

Displacement, no power and the like happens all over the country, unfortunately. Check out the water depth on the multilevel parking garage in downtown CR.

This is a shot I took from my intersection (in Rockford) down my street after the waters from the 2nd 100 year flood had receded substantially. This is a shot of the higher ground, not down the hill where it was really, really bad. Most of us in the area never believed a tiny creek way down the hill would ever flood up to our neighborhood. We were wrong!

This is a shot from my intersection (I lived on a corner) down the hill and again after the water had receded substantially. Just to the left of where you can see was the real deep water, where several square blocks of homes were eventually torn down and converted to green space.

As we know, it does not take a hurricane to do severe damage and cause major displacement. The Rockford floods were due to a slightly clogged up Keith Creek, and the Cedar Rapids flood was due to the Cedar River hitting levels nobody ever dreamed it would hit.

The Cedar River crested at 31.1 feet and the previous highest recorded crest was 20 feet (in 1929) and it flooded areas of the town that nobody ever dreamed could flood. Nobody. Flood stage is 12 feet...

5,238 homes were damaged, 940 businesses were damaged, 310 city facilities were damaged, 99 non-profits and churches were damaged, and 1300 square blocks were affected (10 square miles).

It was the 6th largest disaster declaration in the history of FEMA and the total damage was estimated somewhere near 3 billion dollars or more. 14% of this good sized city were under water after that 2008 flood.

Displaced and no power and no gas (or sewer) were the words of the year(s) and unfortunately that was the end of the neighborhood that my wife's parents lived in. After several months (or longer) the houses were condemned and then they were eventually torn down...nothing there now except green space.

My wife was a tad bit upset when I sold my boat last year and that's not a joke!

Cheers

-don

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ForumGuru Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

My basement will flood in the spring and after a heavy or continuous rain..

Unfortunately, where I am at now, I get water in my basement almost every rain, no matter how light it is. I just had a new furnace installed last week due to basement water damage and I had a new water heater installed due to the same water damage just a few months ago. On-top of that I lost half of everything else down there this summer.

I am doing what I can about the water problem, but in this neighborhood their is little else I can do except move --> which I hope to do before the spring rains hit in 2015.

Several years ago when I lived in Rockford I had a terrible water main break (under the street) that ruined my 1/2 finished basement --> family room, fireplace, bar, laundry machines etc. etc. Two feet of water filled 5 rooms and destroyed almost everything down there. Usually I would get zero water in that basement, until the main broke that is.

Yeah, I know water, been there done that.

Cheers

-don
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HeySal

10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

We get a lot of flooding around here also Dan.
Mostly it's the usual stuff from spring thaws, though we have had times where it was all do to heavy rain.
My basement will flood in the spring and after a heavy or continuous rain. I'm at the bottom of a hill that has a spring at the top and another one just down the road from me. There are as many underground streams around here as there are hair on my head. Starting at my house and going around the west side of the hill, everyone has water issues in their basements. The water drains into a swamp, that drains into a pond, that drains into the Posten Kill.

At least you live far enough up that hill that most of what you catch is headed down. I can't imagine living all the way down at the river. That little flat spot in your area below you is still elevated and will never get completely inundated

The place I live, flash floods are a problem, but the water has plenty of downhill drainage to keep us from ever getting inundated. The river has around 300 feet of cliff to rise over - and plenty of places that serve as drainage to it.

If I ever move back into flatland again, I will definitely have some sort of boat for emergencies. It baffles me that people on flood plains don't usually keep a boat handy just in case. Doesn't have to be a yacht. There are actually fold up boats you can get for a few hundred bucks that would save you if needed.

BTW - I loved Vermont when I was out there. I went gem hunting there several times, and it's just beautiful. Quaint colonial architecture, lush forestry and foliage. It's just simply beautiful. I can't remember the name of the town just over the border from you, but it has lifesize bronze statues of people here and there on the streets (many of which are cobbled). I had to look twice to realize they weren't just towns people going about their days. LOL. I sure would love to be able to come back for a month this time of year - those trees will be turning soon and I wish I were there to see those beautiful colors. Anyone who has an idea of NY as cement needs to go upstate sometime.

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TimPhelan 10 years ago

Originally Posted by ThomM

There are as many underground streams around here as there are hair on my head.

OK, I've seen your head. That might not be the best metaphor.
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Vermont's largest city now using 100% renewable energy sources

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