Police Officer Shot In Ferguson, Missouri

by positivenegative

Posted: 10 years ago 50 replies

OFF TOPIC

Let's hope this doesn't kick-start the riots again.

Ferguson police officer shot

Kay King

10 years ago

It was a female officer and wasn't life threatening.

They are keeping the anger alive there - apparently all residents have to do is call the DOJ and the DOJ will crack down on the police force there.

Protestors there complained to the DOJ that cops on duty were wearing bracelets with Darren Wilson's name on them - the DOJ ordered them to stop wearing the bracelets.

Protestors complained to DOJ that some police were covering their names on their badges...DOJ ordered cops in Ferguson to stop doing that immediately.

Never mind cops and their families have been threatened - DOJ is backing the protestors all the way. If I were a cop in that area, I'd quit and move and let them police themselves.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Never mind cops and their families have been threatened - DOJ is backing the protestors all the way. If I were a cop in that area, I'd quit and move and let them police themselves.

Never mind that the thug cop didn't really have to shoot down an unarmed young person to begin with. He chose to do that.

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HeySal

10 years ago

This is part of the breakdown of our society. When legislators and law enforcers become self serving and corrupted to the point that rule of law breaks down - the society also becomes corrupt, lawless, and self serving.

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

This follows the police chief's apology to the parents of Michael Brown a couple days ago and also his apologizing for the treatment of the peaceful protesters. I'm not sure what effect that apology and this latest shooting will have on the situation there but the coming decision by the grand jury is crucial. From what I have read, it seems the grand jury is likely to not indict even with numerous eye witnesses. The recent eyewitnesses, two white construction workers caught on video right after the shooting, are perhaps the best witnesses to date.
New Michael Brown shooting witnesses describe scene - CNN.com

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

This follows the police chief's apology to the parents of Michael Brown a couple days ago and also his apologizing for the treatment of the peaceful protesters.

Of course he wasn't man enough to show respect for them by putting on his uniform when he did so. Everything he did wrong was while in uniform. The apology, not so much.

He looked like he just left beer night at the local bowling alley. Why would anyone believe that he meant a single word that came out of his mouth? He has already demonstrated that he is a hateful and deceitful person. No class, whatsoever. I hope the DOJ charges him with something and he loses his job. He's not fit to wear a police uniform. His actions have brought shame upon good law enforcement professional, everywhere.

Cheers. - Frank

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Midnight Oil

10 years ago

The bracelets were a bad idea. If off duty cops want to wear them, I don't care. On duty cops have no business wearing them, though. It just sows further distrust and anger. Seems to me it's just a common sense safety issue for the officers, also. Going on call in Ferguson is already tense enough. Why broadcast a message that is bound to focus even more anger towards yourself?

And uniformed cops shouldn't be covering their names on their badges. I'm white and appreciate the police overall, but I wouldn't want some nameless patrol cop pulling me or my family over at night.

The chief should have shut both of those things down long before the DOJ got involved.

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Midnight Oil

The chief should have shut both of those things down long before the DOJ got involved.

If you don't realize that these actions, like all of his previous actions were meant to antagonize the local community, your not paying attention. Leaving the body in the street for close to 5 hours, let me repeat that, almost 5 hours, was their way of saying, "F-U."

Cheers. - Frank

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Midnight Oil 10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

If you don't realize that these actions, like all of his previous actions were meant to antagonize the local community, your not paying attention

I addressed two very specific things brought up in this thread, three if taking into account my comment on how the chief handled those things. I'm not quite sure how that would indicate a lack of attention on my part.
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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

5 hours may have been a statement. It may also have been the result on panicking by the police force on how to handle a potential PR disaster.

But these guys are just people. They have an "Us against them" mentality...just like most other people. And the police chief was completely out of his element when apologizing. I don't mean because he was apologizing, but he looked like a guy that was in the job solely because of seniority.

Wearing the wrist bands? covering the name tags? That's childish responses to perceived attacks by the population and media. Most of us aren't above such things.

Anyway, that's an observation.

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Kay King

10 years ago

I've read four hours in other reports - I wondered about the length of time and thought perhaps it was due to a police force inexperienced in murder or deadly shooting investigations taking time to make sure they did everything required.

I think one mistake was in not erecting a barrier to shield the body from view - which is sometimes done.

It's easy to call the cop a thug - but that ignores the past good history he has on the job and in the neighborhood. It's easy to call Brown an innocent boy but we saw him act the thug on the video so that's not quite right either.

I'm just going to watch as it plays out with the Grand Jury and then, probably, in court. I wasn't there - I don't know the people involved.

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Tom B Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I'm just going to watch as it plays out with the Grand Jury and then, probably, in court. I wasn't there - I don't know the people involved.

You're so old fashioned Kay.
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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It's easy to call the cop a thug - but that ignores the past good history he has on the job and in the neighborhood. It's easy to call Brown an innocent boy but we saw him act the thug on the video so that's not quite right either

Unless you believe in the death penalty for "thuggish behavior" and in cops being judge, jury and executioner, there was absolutely no reason for this cop to kill an unarmed person.

As for his reputation in a historically racist police dept, yeah that holds a lot of weight. And then they wear "I Am Darren Wilson" bracelets like they're proud of this killing.

In 2013, the Ferguson Police Department made 5,384 stops and 611 searches. 86 percent of the stops and 92 percent of the searches were of black people.
...
In Ferguson, there is one clear sign in the data that the police might be at fault for Ferguson's racially skewed stop-and-search statistics. Despite the racial disparity in stops, the Ferguson police department was more likely to find "contraband" on the white people they stopped and searched than on the black ones. "If your stops of black folks are less efficient than your stops of white folks," Goff said, "then you want to look at that and make it stop."
â€‹How Much Racial Profiling Happens in Ferguson? - The Atlantic

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BigFrank

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I've read four hours in other reports

Last I heard the 'official' incident report is still a blank piece of paper. Four hours or five, you won't find another such callous display taking place anywhere in the U.S., no matter how hard you try. You are correct that a tent or something along those lines could have been employed.

Besides being callous, it was amateurish and it was in my personal belief, intentional. I have not seen any other modus operandi by this department that would ever make me think otherwise. 'Benefit of the doubt' needs to be based on something more tangible than wishful thinking.

Just my opinion.

Cheers. - Frank

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Tom B

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by BigFrank

Watching the video and seeing the mom and dad trying to cope while their son laid in the middle of the street was gut wrenching. It broke my heart watching that... they should have done something to help mitigate that pain.

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

Looks like the Ferguson city officials are looking at keeping the public informed about this case as a money making venture.

Bureaucrats in Ferguson, Missouri, responding to requests under the state's Sunshine Act to turn over government files about the fatal shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown, are charging nearly 10 times the cost of some of their own employees' salaries before they will agree to release any records.

The move discourages journalists and civil rights groups from investigating the shooting and its aftermath.

The city has demanded high fees to produce copies of records that, under Missouri law, it could give away free if it determined the material was in the public's interest to see. Instead, in some cases, the city has demanded high fees with little explanation or cost breakdown.

Ferguson Demands High Fees To Turn Over City Files

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Kay King

10 years ago

I've never seen cost to reproduce docs compared to an hourly employee. I've had to acquire public documents at times and there was a fee for the research and "pulling" and another fee for copying or for sending. Depending on how many pages are requested I would expect the charge to be more than $14/hr.

I have run into a couple places where the cost to get 'public' documents was fairly high and others where it was cheap. In this case the copies are being requested by huge media conglomerates and groups with specific agendas and I think the fees should be high enough to cover any time or expense used to provide copies.

I don't approve of exorbitant costs to the public for copies of public documents...but the complaints are coming from media outlets anxious to find info to keep the story alive....and from ACLU and other groups with agendas rather than individual citizens.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

I don't approve of exorbitant costs to the public for copies of public documents...but the complaints are coming from media outlets anxious to find info to keep the story alive....and from ACLU and other groups with agendas rather than individual citizens.

The agenda of the media is to inform the public, which it has a constitutional right called "Freedom of the Press" to do.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Looks like the Ferguson city officials are looking at keeping the public informed about this case as a money making venture.

Ferguson Demands High Fees To Turn Over City Files

Saw that today. It's more than just a money making thing. It's a "we don't want you to have those records" thing, IMO. I think a bunch of media organizations should just all pitch in so the cost is minimal and share the information with everyone.

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Saw that today. It's more than just a money making thing. It's a "we don't want you to have those records" thing, IMO.

I was just being sarcastic.

The article made it pretty clear what the intent was.

Price-gouging for government files is one way that local, state and federal agencies have responded to requests for potentially embarrassing information they may not want released. Open records laws are designed to give the public access to government records at little or no cost, and have historically exposed waste, wrongdoing and corruption.

"The first line of defense is to make the requester go away," said Rick Blum, who coordinates the Sunshine in Government Initiative, a coalition of media groups that advocates for open government. "Charging exorbitant fees to simply cut and paste is a popular tactic."

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Kay King

10 years ago

My problem with this particular story is is comparing two numbers that are not related. The charges to pull, copy or send documents on request has nothing to do with the hourly fee of a clerk.

If you are going to claim it's a high fee - relate it to fees charged by local governments in other cities/states/counties. You can copy a lot of pages in one hour - and a per page fee is going to be significantly higher than a clerk's wage for that reason alone.

In that article it talks about what the media outlet was charged "for a day of producing records". How many pages? Doesn't say. How many copies? Doesn't say. Charge per copy? Doesn't say. To me, that says giving exact numbers would not get the same attention to the story.

When the story is calm for a while and there's nothing new - it's the media's job to find something new to talk about.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

My problem with this particular story is is comparing two numbers that are not related. The charges to pull, copy or send documents on request has nothing to do with the hourly fee of a clerk.

If you are going to claim it's a high fee - relate it to fees charged by local governments in other cities/states/counties. You can copy a lot of pages in one hour - and a per page fee is going to be significantly higher than a clerk's wage for that reason alone.

In that article it talks about what the media outlet was charged "for a day of producing records". How many pages? Doesn't say. How many copies? Doesn't say. Charge per copy? Doesn't say. To me, that says giving exact numbers would not get the same attention to the story.

When the story is calm for a while and there's nothing new - it's the media's job to find something new to talk about.

As usual, great insight.

Also, quoting people that have an agenda (even if the agenda is to our benefit) gives a skewed perspective. Like this;
"The first line of defense is to make the requester go away," said Rick Blum, who coordinates the Sunshine in Government Initiative, a coalition of media groups that advocates for open government. "Charging exorbitant fees to simply cut and paste is a popular tactic."

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Also, quoting people that have an agenda (even if the agenda is to our benefit) gives a skewed perspective. Like this;
"The first line of defense is to make the requester go away," said Rick Blum, who coordinates the Sunshine in Government Initiative, a coalition of media groups that advocates for open government. "Charging exorbitant fees to simply cut and paste is a popular tactic."

I specialize in skewed perspectives Claude, but what's your point here? The group Sunshine in Government Initiative seems to me to be a nonpartisan group.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

I specialize in skewed perspectives Claude, but what's your point here? The group Sunshine in Government Initiative seems to me to be a nonpartisan group.

I'm saying that they are not unbiased. A problem is that most spokespeople are working to promote one agenda or another. They all use statistics to serve their purpose.

And there are sooo few organizations that don't have an agenda. An agenda is pretty much what starts organizations in the first place.

I'm just saying, don't believe at face value, what spokespeople for organizations say. There is usually a bias.

"Charging exorbitant fees to simply cut and paste is a popular tactic." is an opinion, not a fact. It may also be a fact, but it's an opinion.

From us, I expect arguments, throwing feces, and barking. But I wouldn't base an opinion on it.

Do I really have a point? Not really. I just like to play in the sandbox.

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

I'm saying that they are not unbiased.

Sure, they are biased in that they want government transparency, which is a very nonpartisan objective. That's their agenda, if you want to call it that, so the quote I posted seems pretty relevant and I don't see any "skewed perspective".

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Tim; You're an intelligent guy with a specific point of view. I know you don't see it. But, even though they probably have a very altruistic objective, they are going to use language that supports their agenda.

I didn't say it wasn't relevant. I didn't say it wasn't true. I said it was an opinion. It is nonpartison, but it isn't unbiased.

If you were completely uncaring about the subject, the language would jump out at you.

I'm nitpicking. I almost never care about the actual subject, but the structure of the arguments (no matter who they are from) interests me. and biases stick out to me.

But it's odd. Because almost no post/article/quote is without an agenda, a bias....a point of view.

Forget I mentioned it. It's my own wrestling match.

Added a minute later; If the source had no point they wanted to make, they wouldn't offer a quote at all. Pure news is dreadfully boring. And it's nearly impossible to find.

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Claude, you're an intelligent guy. I know you don't quite grasp what this is all about. I said the guy was biased towards the government. He probably has experienced the exact thing many times and that may be why the writer of the article came to him for a quote. Does that mean he is biased towards the Ferguson police/officials? Is that what you are implying? Does it mean what he says, which seemed like a generic quote about how the government tries not to be transparent, is a "skewed perspective"? Obviously the writer of the article has a bias towards this particular issue and it just might be because he was one of those who was charged such high fees.

Anyways, I hope you win your wrestling match with yourself and body slam that other guy.

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Claude Whitacre

10 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Tim; It isn't that I don't grasp what it's about. I don't care what it's about. I was commenting on the language used in the quote. But I guess, in the strictest sense, I don't grasp what the issue is about. Because I never considered it.

And I wasn't looking at the points you just brought up. I was talking about the quote I gave.

"Charging exorbitant fees to simply cut and paste is a popular tactic.".

I hope that answers your question.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre

Well, the fact is, that was just one article when there are many articles from different news organizations reporting the same thing in different words. AP paid some money, an amount of money that is illegal for Ferguson to charge for public information. Buzzfeed did not pay the money being charged illegally, and several others did not as well.

What is important, rather than petty arguments about the wording or who paid what or who did not pay is that Ferguson is doing something that is against MO law to keep information away from the public.

That makes me 100% more interested in Ferguson than I was before I read that.

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Kay King

10 years ago

AP paid some money, an amount of money that is illegal for Ferguson to charge for public information.

Can you find a reference for that? I see where AP complained about cost being high - but not where they stated cost was illegal. Maybe I missed an article.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Can you find a reference for that? I see where AP complained about cost being high - but not where they stated cost was illegal. Maybe I missed an article.

The AP didn't use the term illegal, but I'm sure they are well aware of the Missouri Sunshine Law and will take appropriate action. I cited everything above, including the actual law Kay and there's no dispute whatsoever that the charge was far beyond what they're legally allowed to charge for public information.

How much can a public governmental body charge for records requests?

Section 610.026.1(1), RSMo, allows a public governmental body to charge up to 10 cents per page for standard paper copies, the average hourly rate of pay for clerical staff to duplicate documents, and the actual cost of the research time for fulfilling the request. This provision also requires that the public governmental body use the lowest salaried employees capable of searching, researching, and copying the records. Fees for accessing records on other media, or non-standard paper copies, shall reflect actual cost involved. The requestor may wish to ask for a breakdown of the costs associated with the request to determine how the public governmental body arrived at the final charge.

The AP notes, "Open records laws are designed to give the public access to government records at little or no cost." Officials in Ferguson seem to have other ideas about just what the public is entitled to know.

Ferguson told the AP it wanted nearly $2,000 to pay a consulting firm for up to 16 hours of work to retrieve messages on its own email system, a practice that information technology experts call unnecessary

NOTE: Which Ferguson employees makes $2K per day in wages to justify that kind of charge?

Bureaucrats in Ferguson, Missouri, responding to requests under the state's Sunshine Act to turn over government files about the fatal shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown, are charging nearly 10 times the cost of some of their own employees' salaries before they will agree to release any records.

The city has demanded high fees to produce copies of records that, under Missouri law, it could give away free if it determined the material was in the public's interest to see. Instead, in some cases, the city has demanded high fees with little explanation or cost breakdown. It billed The Associated Press $135 an hour - for nearly a day's work - merely to retrieve a handful of email accounts since the shooting.

That fee compares with an entry-level, hourly salary of $13.90 in the city clerk's office, and it didn't include costs to review the emails or release them.

Organizations like the website Buzzfeed were told they'd have to pay unspecified thousands of dollars for emails and memos about Ferguson's traffic-citation policies and changes to local elections. The Washington Post said Ferguson wanted no less than $200 for its requests.

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Kay King

10 years ago

The AP didn't use the term illegal, b

But you said

AP paid some money, an amount of money that is illegal for Ferguson to charge for public information.

Then you went on to the conclusion the IMPORTANT THING is "Ferguson is doing something that is against MO law to keep information away from the public"

What I posted is the fee schedule set by law for Ferguson. Here's the point I'm making:

If the AP - or anyone else - was charged MORE THAN the legal fees, they should go to court about it and I would support them in that.

Those fees are only related to employee salary in that part of the fee allowed IS the hourly fee of an employee - but that is only part of the fee structure.

You and I agree that if the fees were above the legal limits - that's wrong and that is circumventing the Sunshine Laws.

I want to see PROOF - numbers - fees - breakdown - before I jump to a conclusion that laws are being broken in Ferguson.

You are willing to make that jump before factual data is provided.

That's the only difference in our view on this issue.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

But you said

Then you went on to the conclusion the IMPORTANT THING is "Ferguson is doing something that is against MO law to keep information away from the public"

I used the term illegal. Not the AP. And I used it after researching the Sunshine Law and at least six articles on what Ferguson is doing, getting six different perspectives on the same story. Hardly jumping to conclusions. I also cited everything I read.

Originally Posted by Kay King

What I posted is the fee schedule set by law for Ferguson. Here's the point I'm making:

Those fees are only related to employee salary in that part of the fee allowed IS the hourly fee of an employee - but that is only part of the fee structure.
...
I want to see PROOF - numbers - fees - breakdown - before I jump to a conclusion that laws are being broken in Ferguson.

You are willing to make that jump before factual data is provided.

The lowest paid employee makes $13.xx per hours there and per the Sunshine Law, they are allowed to charge the hourly rate of the lowest paid employee, also cited previously. The amount allowed for copies is 10 cents per copy, also cited previously. The AP was told that the charge would be $2K for 16 hours work.

Now, I'm no mathematical genius, but let's round the employees wage to $14/hr. X 16 hrs = $224. Also cited, was Ferguson's unwillingness to give them a breakdown of those charges, which is also against Mo Sunshine Act. It clearly states that they must provide a breakdown of the charges.

Now, since you seem to be interested in that breakdown and how they came up with $2K for 16 hrs. work plus copies, you are entitled to that information, since you are a member of the public and they are public servants being paid by the public to serve the public.

Give them a call and see if you can get that info, and good luck with that.

[/QUOTE]

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TimPhelan

10 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

"Organizations like the website Buzzfeed were told they'd have to pay unspecified thousands of dollars for emails and memos about Ferguson's traffic-citation policies and changes to local elections."

Suzanne, you touched on this earlier in the article you linked to about racial profiling, but did you see this NPR article about the traffic stops, high fines, and resulting arrest warrants?

Disclosure: be aware that in this quote below I am quoting someone who some may say has a skewed perspective!

To understand some of the distrust of police that has fueled protests in Ferguson, Mo., consider this: In 2013, the municipal court in Ferguson -- a city of 21,135 people -- issued 32,975 arrest warrants for nonviolent offenses, mostly driving violations.

A new report released the week after 18-year old Michael Brown was shot and killed in Ferguson helps explain why. ArchCity Defenders, a St. Louis-area public defender group, says in its report that more than half the courts in St. Louis County engage in the "illegal and harmful practices" of charging high court fines and fees on nonviolent offenses like traffic violations -- and then arresting people when they don't pay. The report singles out courts in three communities, including Ferguson...

Jeff Smith, an assistant professor at the New School and a former Missouri state senator from St. Louis, says Ferguson "facilitates a debtors prison" because of the high number of arrest warrants that get issued when people don't pay. When people go to jail, they sometimes lose their jobs...

"My son was 2 weeks old and I was under doctor's care, and Ferguson still locked me up and left me in jail for a week -- over traffic tickets," she says. "Even when my lawyer was calling and saying that I'm under doctor's care, I just had a baby, and they still didn't care."

Police and city officials in Ferguson didn't respond to our requests for an interview.

In Ferguson, Court Fines And Fees Fuel Anger : NPR

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

In Ferguson, Court Fines And Fees Fuel Anger : NPR

Yeah, I read this article or one like some time ago and found it interesting.

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Kay King

10 years ago

Small towns are famous for speed traps and writing excessive tickets to fund their coffers.

However, I have to wonder about the quote from the woman. I found more on the npr site

There are so many people in St. Louis County with arrest warrants for unpaid fines and fees on nonviolent offenses that once a year — every August — local police departments, working with a community group, allow thousands of people to get those arrest warrants dropped. Then they can ask to pay off their fines and fees on a payment plan.

On Friday, people stood in line at the Ferguson police department on the last day to complete registration in the amnesty program.

Ebony, 36, who owes about $2,000 in fines and fees, was one of them. She asked that NPR not use her last name because she says she fears retaliation.
Ebony says she's been arrested before after she didn't pay off all her fines — the last time just two weeks after she had given birth.

"My son was 2 weeks old and I was under doctor's care, and Ferguson still locked me up and left me in jail for a week — over traffic tickets," she says. "Even when my lawyer was calling and saying that I'm under doctor's care, I just had a baby, and they still didn't care."

Ebony says she knows if she falls behind again on those fines and fees, there could be a new arrest warrant.

My question is how does one woman rack up $2000 in traffic fines multiple times? Has she paid any fines? Sounds like it is a problem in that county - but not sure she's a good poster child for it!

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TimPhelan 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

My question is how does one woman rack up $2000 in traffic fines multiple times?

That was what the article is all about: "charging high court fines and fees on nonviolent offenses like traffic violations... People who can't pay their fines and fees go on payment plans. But then there are extra fees, sometimes interest...Courts often ignore laws, Supreme Court rulings and protections that outlaw the equivalent of debtors prisons."
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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

I specialize in skewed perspectives Claude, but what's your point here? The group Sunshine in Government Initiative seems to me to be a nonpartisan group.

The Missouri Sunshine Law covers the release of public documents pretty well, even to how much they are allowed to charge to release public documents. It isn't a suggestion. It's Missouri law, so what Ferguson is doing is illegal. Any wonder why the DOJ is getting involved in this case? Not to me.

There are forms on the Sunshine Law for those who feel that the law is not being upheld and I'm fairly certain that the news organizations will be filing those papers pretty quickly.

Sunshine Law: Top 10 Things to Know
1. When in doubt, a meeting or record of a public body should be opened to the public.

2. The Sunshine Law applies to all records, regardless of what form they are kept in, and to all meetings, regardless of the manner in which they are held.

3. The Sunshine Law allows a public body to close meetings and records to the public in some limited circumstances, but it almost never requires a public body to do so.

4. A public body generally must give at least 24 hours' public notice before holding a meeting. If the meeting will be closed to the public, the notice must state the specific provision of the law that allows the meeting to be closed.

5. Each public body must have a written Sunshine Law policy and a custodian of records whose name is available to the public upon request.

6. The Sunshine Law requires a custodian of records to respond to a records request as soon as possible but no later than three business days after the custodian receives it.

7. The Sunshine Law deals with whether a public body's records must be open to the public, but it generally does not state what records the body must keep or for how long. A body cannot, however, avoid a records request by destroying records after it receives a request for those records.

8. The Sunshine Law requires a public body to grant access to open records it already has, but it does not require a public body to create new records in response to a request for information.

9. When responding to a request for copies of its records, the Sunshine Law limits how much a public body can charge for copying and research costs.

10. There are special laws and rules that govern access to law enforcement and judicial records.

2. Each law enforcement agency of this state, of any county, and of any municipality, shall maintain records of all incidents reported to the agency, investigations and arrests made by such law enforcement agency. All incident reports and arrest reports shall be open records.

Charlier v. Corum, 774 S.W.2d 518 (Mo. App. W.D. 1989)
A county sheriff is a "public governmental body" within the meaning of Section 610.010(4) because the office of sheriff is an administrative entity created by state statute.

Charlier v. Corum, 794 S.W.2d 676 (Mo. App. W.D. 1990)
A county sheriff purposely violated the Sunshine Law when he refused to make public records available. Neither the sheriff's "good faith" belief that he was not a "public governmental body" nor the fact that he acted upon advice of legal counsel relieved him from liability. More recently, the Missouri Supreme Court in Spradlin v. City of Fulton, 982 S.W.2d 255 (Mo.banc 1998), denied attorney fees when the public body did not purposely violate the Sunshine Law.

Missouri Sunshine law top ten things to know

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Kay King

10 years ago

That sort of proves the point. If Ferguson is in violation of any of that Missouri Sunshine Law, there are legal steps that can be taken.

If Ferguson is over charging - there are legal steps that can be taken. I doubt those steps include comparison to employee salaries but if over-charged there is recourse.

It's a put up or shut up scenario for those complaining in the media. If you were charged more than the law allows - take legal action. If what you paid was within the law, it's petty to report it as too expensive.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It's a put up or shut up scenario for those complaining in the media. If you were charged more than the law allows - take legal action. If what you paid was within the law, it's petty to report it as too expensive.

Uh ... Kay. They are reporters and reporting is what they do. They are reporting that Ferguson is charging ridiculous amounts of money for public records. That is news. I don't know what gripe you have against the media, but I much prefer our media over no media and no news. I don't want to live in a country where information is suppressed.

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salegurus

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Never mind cops and their families have been threatened - DOJ is backing the protestors all the way. If I were a cop in that area, I'd quit and move and let them police themselves.

I agree with you 100% Kay but seems that being a Cop hater is more en vogue nowadays...

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I don't want to live in a country where information is suppressed.

I've got news for you, you already are...

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sbucciarel Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by salegurus

I've got news for you, you already are...

I've got news for you. Do you think any of us are not aware that there are secrets that we don't know? So, gagging the media ... that's going to help? I prefer to let the media do what they do best, even if much of what they report is hyped, over-reported or redundant. The alternative is living in a country that can black out anything that they don't want the public to know, kind of like China

Chinese media blackout on Hong Kong protests

Instagram Blackout Continues During Protests in Hong Kong

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/01/wo...crackdown.html
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- salegurus 10 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by sbucciarel
  
  I've got news for you. Do you think any of us are not aware that there are secrets that we don't know? So, gagging the media ... that's going to help?
  
  Ummm, that's what i meant when i said "you already are".......
  
  Who said anything about gagging the media?
  
  Objective reporting almost does not exist anymore. Most Media outlets seem to have an agenda these days and they distort the news to fit in with their narrative...
  
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  ― George Carlin
  
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Kay King

10 years ago

I'm not against the media - but in this particular case the media is spinning a story. I don't like that.

The amounts that can be charged are public knowledge - the media group can request a breakdown of the charges. THEN - if they have been over charged, they have a story.

Instead - they have constructed a story that doesn't rely on legal facts that are readily available. That is the part of media I don't like - creating an impression of news rather than reporting news.

I am against suppression of information - but I'm also against use of misinformation to hype a story.

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

Most of them haven't been overcharged because they didn't pay the prices being asked for the information, so they were denied public records that they have every right to have access to. Those records are public. They don't belong to the cops in Ferguson.

The fact that Ferguson is going so far as to break the law in regards to those public records is a strong indication to me, and probably to the media as well, that they are attempting to hide and withhold information from the public. Now why would they do that? Something to hide? Well, that's just going to make the media a whole lot more curious.

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Kay King 10 years ago

I've lost interest in this because it's just going round and found. The article originally linked talked about HOW MUCH THE MEDIA GROUP WAS CHARGED in one day. I would assume if they were "charged" - they must have paid.

There is no right or wrong opinion here - it was either within the law or not.
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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

The story isn't calm and there's much for the media to dig into. That's exactly what Ferguson is trying to circumvent. Would you prefer that cops and government and other state run public organizations are allowed to operate in secrecy?

The AP reports that city officials are requesting exorbitant fees from news organizations that are requesting documents under Missouri's Sunshine Act concerning the police shooting of Michael Brown and the city's heavy-handed response. The law governs the release of government information to the public and the news media, including internal emails, records, memos and other documents.

Under the law, the city can provide the information free of charge if its contents are determined to be in the public interest. The AP notes, "Open records laws are designed to give the public access to government records at little or no cost." Officials in Ferguson seem to have other ideas about just what the public is entitled to know.

.....

The good news is that blocking news organizations from accessing internal records won't get city officials off the hook. With the Department of Justice now investigating the Ferguson police department, it's only a matter of time until the full picture of the city's response to the Michael Brown shooting emerges.

Ferguson Is Going to Extraordinary Lengths to Hide Information From the Public - Mic

It billed The Associated Press $135 an hour - for nearly a day's work - merely to retrieve a handful of email accounts since the shooting.

That fee compares with an entry-level, hourly salary of $13.90 in the city clerk's office, and it didn't include costs to review the emails or release them.
Ferguson charging big fees for release of Michael Brown files | New York Post

Bureaucrats in Ferguson are charging nearly 10 times the cost of some of the city employees' salaries for records, the AP continues.

The newspaper called attention to a handful of examples including a $135 an hour bill for a nearly full day's worth of work to retrieve and handful of emails by police officials, and a $2,000 fee for retrieving messages out of the email system.

According to Missouri's Sunshine Law website, a public body can charge up to 10 cents per page for standard copies, an average hourly rate of pay for clerical staff if they have to duplicate documents, and the actual cost of the research time for fulfilling the request.
Ferguson accused of gouging prices for public documents

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dallas playboy

10 years ago

Until you've tried to enforce the law in a gang infested, drug addicted, pimp pushing, killing field
like any large city in America, you don't know jack shit what being a cop is about.

Who ya going to call when they all quit?

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sbucciarel

Banned 10 years ago

Originally Posted by dallas playboy

Ferguson, 6.2 sq mi - hardly a large city in America, population 21,135 in 2012
... and what I do know about being a cop is that the public does not hire them and pay their wages to shoot down unarmed 18 year olds. If the cops can't take the heat of "gang infested, drug addicted, pimp pushing, killing fields," they should go into another line of work, because that's what cops are paid to do ... fight crime.

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Kay King

10 years ago

People who can't pay their fines and fees go on payment plans. But then there are extra fees, sometimes interest...Courts often ignore laws, Supreme Court rulings and protections that outlaw the equivalent of debtors prisons."

I get that and I know it does happen. But we are talking traffic fines and fees. I understand someone might get parking fines when they are in a job interview or have the occasional speeding ticket. I understand if you can't pay how the fees could rack up.

The amnesty program is good but it's annual so I wonder if people like this woman just wait till the "get off cheaper" month rolls around every year.

This woman admits to having the same problem in past years and I have to wonder what she is doing in her car to get so many traffic tickets.

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ForumGuru

Banned 10 years ago

The topic quickly turned a bit from the shooting of the police officer...oh well.

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Ferguson, 6.2 sq mi - hardly a large city in America, population 21,135 in 2012

St. Louis County is a large metropolitan area that is broken into at least 91 different municipalities with Ferguson being one of those municipalities. Total population of St. Louis County is around 1,000,0000 and the Metro St. Louis area population is roughly 2.8 million.

Ferguson since the 1970s has gone from being 85 percent white to about 70 percent black, thanks to waves of flight by both races from the City of St. Louis.

Restrictive zoning rules, local real estate practices, housing prices, and transportation issues have concentrated many of those black migrants into older suburbs in adjoining north St. Louis County, like Ferguson. Meanwhile, whites continued to move even farther west into once-exurban St. Charles County—now Missouri’s most-affluent county, with a population nearly equal to that of the City of St. Louis. One result: a recreation of the segregated neighborhoods many former city-dwellers had sought to leave behind.

2010: The black population of suburban St. Louis County now surpasses that of the city by 48 percent. It’s almost equal to the total number of black St. Louis City dwellers in 1970.

Why Ferguson, Missouri, Looks Like the Inner City - Businessweek

The County Map That Explains Ferguson’s Tragic Discord

The map of St. Louis County, the home of Ferguson, looks like a shattered pot. It’s broken into 91 municipalities that range from small to tiny, along with clots of population in unincorporated areas. Dating as far back as the 19th century, communities set themselves up as municipalities to capture control of tax revenue from local businesses, to avoid paying taxes to support poorer neighbors, or to exclude blacks. Their behavior has ranged from somewhat parochial to flatly illegal.

The result of fragmentation today is a county whose small towns are highly stratified by both race and income. As blacks move into a town, whites move out. The tax base shrinks, and blacks feel cheated that the amenities they came for quickly disappear, says Clarence Lang, a University of Kansas historian who has studied St. Louis. Ferguson flipped from majority white to majority black so quickly that the complexion of the government and police force doesn’t match that of the population. That mismatch was a key factor in the tense race relations that contributed to the riots and, perhaps, the shooting itself.

The problem, rather, is that St. Louis is locked into a pattern of inequitable development, as shown in a remarkable series of maps that Iowa’s Gordon has posted on the Web. “The Gateway City is,” he writes, “by any measure, one of the most depopulated, deindustrialized, and deeply segregated examples of American urban decay.” Fragmentation “is not the principal cause, but it certainly fed into what’s happening in Ferguson,” says Robert Cohn, author of The History and Growth of St. Louis County, Missouri.

How St. Louis County's Map Explains Ferguson's Racial Discord - Businessweek

The interactive style animated map referred to in the article is very interesting to say the least, and it's well worth the look.

It's called Mapping Decline - St. Louis and the American City and it's done by Professor Colin Gordon at the University of Iowa.

Topic covered are:

White Flight
Race & Property
Municipal Zoning
Urban Renewal

Mapping Decline | Colin Gordon | The University of Iowa

Colin's bio...

http://ppc.uiowa.edu/people/colin-gordon

http://clas.uiowa.edu/history/people/colin-gordon

It's not nearly as informative as his series of relatively remarkable maps are...but below is a short interview he did on the subject.

Ferguson Protests: How Did We Get Here? - YouTube

Students at the University of Iowa made a short film based on the book Gordon wrote...

Colin Gordon: St. Louis and the Fate of the...

If you are really interested in this subject feel free to order the 284 page hardcover edition...

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...apping-decline

Cheers

-don

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Police Officer Shot In Ferguson, Missouri

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