White Label SMS vs. 3rd Party SMS...Who to Use?

76 replies
Can someone please tell me if it is really that important to go 'white label' or not?

Just am starting out and got some interested clients...Like the idea of having my own control panel with my logo, I cant lie...but is that going to cost me?

Any companies that you can recommend for cheap white label or...?
#3rd #label #party #sms #smswho #white
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    We're using Twilio (the best, IMO), and writing our our own admin panel. We're considering opening our new panel up for white label use by SMS resellers.
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    • Profile picture of the author BetterThanZero
      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

      We're using Twilio (the best, IMO), and writing our our own admin panel. We're considering opening our new panel up for white label use by SMS resellers.
      Hey Steven Carl Kelly,
      I would be interested in your white label admin panel when you have it ready.
      I don't have enough posts here to pm you.... So is there any chance of you guys setting up a notification list?
      Thanks
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    • Profile picture of the author jpeguero
      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

      We're using Twilio (the best, IMO), and writing our our own admin panel. We're considering opening our new panel up for white label use by SMS resellers.

      Twilio don't do international.

      thx

      Juan
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    • Profile picture of the author winjo2280
      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

      We're using Twilio (the best, IMO), and writing our our own admin panel. We're considering opening our new panel up for white label use by SMS resellers.
      Are you still considering this? Twilio sounds very interesting to me but I don't want to reinvent the wheel if you can provide a nice looking admin panel at a reasonable cost.

      Thanks,
      Winnie
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    • Profile picture of the author warbler
      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

      We're using Twilio (the best, IMO), and writing our our own admin panel. We're considering opening our new panel up for white label use by SMS resellers.
      Steven Carl Kelly--I'm using OpenVBX to run a prototype SMS campaign and I'm be interested in licensing your admin panel (I'm sure others here are interested as well)

      Also, my background is in web app testing and modification, so I'd be happy to help you refine your system.

      Please email me if interested: grant {at} foliozoom [dot] com
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  • Profile picture of the author FreeBird85
    If you want local business owners to manage their own sms campaigns, then white label is the way to go. If you're going to be managing all of the sms marketing for your local businesses, white label may not necessarily be the way to go. Just my two cents.
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  • Profile picture of the author nctom
    From what I've seen adking.com has the best deal. It's a white label solution. You can have 100 ad accounts for $395 a month plus $95 maintenance.
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    • Profile picture of the author littleangle
      check out TXT180 or EZTexting... I don't have enough funds or knowledge for the official white label but i do have customers that I manage for now. I make money. I'll make more as I grow and learn. just my $.02
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Clough
        Originally Posted by littleangle View Post

        check out TXT180 or EZTexting... I don't have enough funds or knowledge for the official white label but i do have customers that I manage for now. I make money. I'll make more as I grow and learn. just my $.02
        EZ texting wants $1,000 up front to be a reseller and $299 a month!! Just the facts.....
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  • Profile picture of the author mouseffects
    If you decide to manage their accounts for them then they will not have to ability to promote specials at the spur of the moment. One of our biggest selling points is that our clients can run "slow day" specials or spur-of-the-moment weekend specials. During these times no one is in our office so they couldn't do it without help.

    If you elect to give them control, without white labeling, they can easily see how much the provider is selling the system for so you can not charge but what's advertised on their site. You might as well just be an affiliate.

    Then there's the problem of your client going around you directly to the provider once they learn the system. they could feel that they don't need you any longer ass a middleman.

    White labeling is the only way to go in my opinion but you have to be careful there too. Check ALL companies who offer white labeled products and make sure you run the numbers (profit and loss) real well. This market is an easy one to get fooled in and once you get tied with someone, it's hard to change (just like trying to change autoresponders for email - but worse).

    It literally took my partner and me over 20 hours of running spreadsheets on about every service known to man before we could make a decision we were comfortable with.

    Then, with the white label solution, you need to be able to set it up properly and make sure the provider's name is nowhere that can be found 9see the part above where I talk about "going around" you).

    Once everything is set up properly, you are essentially in your own text business. You can charge what you want and how you want and that's a good position to be in.

    Good luck with your decision...
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    • Profile picture of the author Digimax
      Originally Posted by mouseffects View Post

      If you decide to manage their accounts for them then they will not have to ability to promote specials at the spur of the moment. One of our biggest selling points is that our clients can run "slow day" specials or spur-of-the-moment weekend specials. During these times no one is in our office so they couldn't do it without help.

      If you elect to give them control, without white labeling, they can easily see how much the provider is selling the system for so you can not charge but what's advertised on their site. You might as well just be an affiliate.

      Then there's the problem of your client going around you directly to the provider once they learn the system. they could feel that they don't need you any longer ass a middleman.

      White labeling is the only way to go in my opinion but you have to be careful there too. Check ALL companies who offer white labeled products and make sure you run the numbers (profit and loss) real well. This market is an easy one to get fooled in and once you get tied with someone, it's hard to change (just like trying to change autoresponders for email - but worse).

      It literally took my partner and me over 20 hours of running spreadsheets on about every service known to man before we could make a decision we were comfortable with.

      Then, with the white label solution, you need to be able to set it up properly and make sure the provider's name is nowhere that can be found 9see the part above where I talk about "going around" you).

      Once everything is set up properly, you are essentially in your own text business. You can charge what you want and how you want and that's a good position to be in.

      Good luck with your decision...
      >>>

      A quick question for those providing managed services (or not) in the mobile space...

      1) Do you think it is better to manage client accounts for them, or create a front end and let the customers do their own mobile campaigns?

      2) Any caveats about whether to run all accounts under "one roof" (i.e. your server, billing), or let them install an account script on their server?
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  • Profile picture of the author TrumpiaTim
    As Larry mentioned above, that's a very pivotal question as to whether or not your clients want their own dashboard.

    If they do then you should very seriously consider the white label route, but if they prefer to have you manage their own campaign, then you could use an existing SMS service to manage this campaign without having to pay and set up your own white label.
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    • Profile picture of the author cchipster
      I have found the best white label source for by far the lowest price anywhere. I am still in amazement and signed up recently. For details PM me
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      • Profile picture of the author johninmn
        Originally Posted by cchipster View Post

        I have found the best white label source for by far the lowest price anywhere. I am still in amazement and signed up recently. For details PM me
        So was this thread just a farce to promote your white label?
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        mobile mobile mobile mobile etc....

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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          I don't like being hands-on. What I do is just sell the service, do some training, and let my clients run it themselves. A good service which I have been using for about 4 years now is callfire.com They have an affiliate program (which I sell to my clients through my affiliate link after training them), and also a white label option. Highly recommended, and it is compatible with all platforms and all the major wireless providers.
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      • Profile picture of the author jpeguero
        Originally Posted by cchipster View Post

        I have found the best white label source for by far the lowest price anywhere. I am still in amazement and signed up recently. For details PM me
        Spared me your selling pitch.

        Juan
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      • Profile picture of the author InternetJeffrey
        I'm interested in finding out who you're using for your white label. Also what kind of prices are you charging your customers.
        Adking is one I found that allows the client unlimited texting.

        Jeff
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  • Profile picture of the author thattori
    Well any suggestion on who are offering white label?
    Thanks
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    • Profile picture of the author msgpals
      Originally Posted by thattori View Post

      Well any suggestion on who are offering white label?
      Thanks
      Go with dktext.com they have a wonderful white label solution
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  • Profile picture of the author bankcardguru
    It really depends on your target market and SMS options. If you are going to offer txt2vote, txt2win, contest, birthday club, reminders etc. You will need robust platform. If you just offering the basics you become either reseller with little upfront investment with an excellent residual opportunity we use sellmobileadvertising.com's product.
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    • Profile picture of the author TwilioExperts
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      • Profile picture of the author thattori
        Originally Posted by ANS View Post

        Hi

        I am a twilio expert, I can help you build your own SMS and Call Tracking System.

        You will have your own CMS for sending receiving SMS. then no need to pay any other third party Just Twilio.

        Please let me know your project details.

        Just send you PM
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      • Profile picture of the author thattori
        Originally Posted by ANS View Post

        Hi

        I am a twilio expert, I can help you build your own SMS and Call Tracking System.

        You will have your own CMS for sending receiving SMS. then no need to pay any other third party Just Twilio.

        Please let me know your project details.
        send you pm, still waiting for the answer!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author bombasdeagua
    Is there an open source option to twilio?
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    • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
      Originally Posted by bombasdeagua View Post

      Is there an open source option to twilio?
      I think Twilio is an open source. You need to pay for sending/receiving sms though. 2 cents per message.

      Thomas
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      • Profile picture of the author TWalker
        I have Twilio up and running tonight with OpenVBX system. Pretty neat I think.

        Has anyone done this and branded it? Is it white label? I was under that impression that it was but I havn't gotten that far into it yet.

        Can we put our own label on the OpenVBX interface or any Twilio API stuff to make it our own interface for clients.

        So far I havn't seen an answer from anyone who put their own label on it and what is required?

        Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author TWalker
    I really thought Twilio would be a good solution but I cannot find any answers as to how it is "white label" or rebrandable so I might give up on Twilio and go with 3rd party branded service.

    The reason I tried it out was because some in this forum said it was good for creating your own interface for your clients.

    Too bad it looks like a great setup if you don't mind letting your customers know you are a middleman for Twilio.
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    • Profile picture of the author rjohnsen
      Go back to the Twilio site and click on the OpenVBX link. That is the service that can be privatly branded.
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      • Profile picture of the author TWalker
        Originally Posted by rjohnsen View Post

        Go back to the Twilio site and click on the OpenVBX link. That is the service that can be privatly branded.
        I already have OpenVBX installed on my server and used it. But never saw any documentation on labeling it my own.

        I did go back and look at that link and your right. It is says "skin it, hack it, sell it" change the logo etc.

        My bad. I should ask them more.

        Must say I was blown away by how easy it was for me create my own application for my customers. I can create a business phone system easily.
        Not my forte and not a service I would offer but still...very slick.

        I would however offer the service to install, brand and set it up if anyone wants it. If we can just change the code and look to suit us I have no problem with that.
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  • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
    They actually mentioned somewhere about white label... You might ask their support if that's the case.


    Thomas
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  • Profile picture of the author SirThomas
    What hosting company have you used?
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    • Profile picture of the author TWalker
      Originally Posted by SirThomas View Post

      What hosting company have you used?
      Me? I installed on a hostgator account.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Rhome
    Twilio seems to work in any country as well? Mmmm

    I don't get how their prices are so low. Is it true SMS, or text messages sent through a web based application?


    Also I found this piece (that could be one of those fake reviews but still makes you think)
    why-choose-tropo-over-twili
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    • Profile picture of the author TheLocalCoach
      On Original Question of White Label vs Reseller/Affiliate: Some good answers already, so will try not to be redundant. Main reason to while label is to try and build a brand for yourself, ostensibly one that adds value for your customer. If you are just going to be a salesperson, then there are many Affiliate/Reseller opportunities which are cheaper and simpler. You are of course, then subject to the Providers pricing, marketing and policies, and of course their are risks of losing sales based on "work-arounds". However, you don;t have the cost and time involved with setting up your own merchant account, your own website and landing pages, etc. On the flip side, with white labeling, you can charge whatever you want, market however you want and you have the direct relationship with, and "own" your customers. We see the most success by people who are adding some value to their white label service (managing SMS campaigns, selling mobile websites, selling SEO), branding themselves as Mobile and/or Internet Marketing Consultants. Hope this helps!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay Moreno
    i just tried out twilios sms sandbox test and its pretty cool - literally up and running sending and receiving txt/sms in minutes super simple to use... much easier to use than other sms gateways ive tried before

    gonna give openvbx a try now!
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  • Profile picture of the author TrumpiaTim
    As a true white label reseller platform it shouldn't force the resellers themselves to develop their own platform. For example Trumpia resellers are given the features and tools which Trumpia provides to our own Inhouse clients.
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    Trumpia: The Most Completed SMS Text Messaging Software & API Solution.
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  • Profile picture of the author OfflineMan
    The whole idea of doing SMS for local businesses is to help them setup the campaign but also give them access to an interface so that if they have a slow day they can shoot off a message to their list without having to call you for it. That's what makes it very attractive to them. " Hey mister biz owner you can login yourself if its slow and shoot off a promotion and fill up your place of business" thats very powerful. I would recomend going with some form of a whitelabel for sure..
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    • Profile picture of the author Cy Price
      Any other recommendations for white-label providers?
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      • Profile picture of the author OfflineMan
        We have built a platform specifically for consultants.. should come out soon.. hours and hours of programming work but should be well worth it
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        Make $8331 A Month With Text Messaging! Tons Of Reviews CLICK HERE
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  • Profile picture of the author jimevee
    I have a white label partner that I'm currently using and would HIGHLY recommend. The platform is second to none, the pricing is very competitive, and what sold me is the high level of knowledge provided not only by their customer service and tech support team but by the CEO himself, very prompt, extremely courteous and friendly. I did a lot of research(spent at least 2 weeks researching and comparing) and spoke to almost every company that offers a white label sms program and IMO these guys are the best hands down. They can provide you with sales materials, scripts, sample contracts, niche marketing ideas, mobile web builders, qr codes, If your just starting out in this business they will walk you thru step by step and even work with you on regarding licensing costs(which are very inexpensive). PM me for details.
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    • Profile picture of the author kmalikis
      why the secrecy??? just name your provider for everyone to assess and evaluate for themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author GerryLee
      Would really like to know the name of your white label SMS provider along with any other details that you care to provide...really serious about this market...just beginning to research providers, etc. This would be a big help.

      Thanks, GerryLee

      Too new to the WF to know much about PM's (private messages?)
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  • Profile picture of the author socialmediaking
    what is with all the pm'ing for white label systems? is there some reason no one wants to post them here?
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  • Profile picture of the author jimevee
    Well the reason I asked to have members PM for more information is as follows.

    When I first decided to get into the sms text marketing business I did alot of research, I mean alot. I probably spent over 2 weeks reviewing websites, attending webinars, doing demos on platforms, and spent alot of time on the phone with the companies as well.

    After doing all of this research I finally found a company who best fit my needs. I was extremely impressed with there knowledge, professionalism, level of customer service, platform and pricing.

    So I was talking with the CEO of the company one day and was extremely complimentary with him,telling him how impressed I was with his company, product and staff. He joked with me that he should hire me to do marketing for his company. I told him that I'd be more then happy to recommended there company for anybody I know that would like to get into the business. At which point we discussed and set-up a referral agreement.

    So with that being said I ask that fellow warriors PM me so that I can give them my name and information to let this company know that you were referred by me thereby entitling you a special offer if you decide to sign up with them and of course I can get proper credit for my referral. Being kind of new here I felt that if I posted that information publicly in the thread that it wouldn't be good forum etiquette.
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  • Profile picture of the author TrumpiaTim
    Well to make it a bit simpler, without having to PM anyone, we feel that Trumpia offers the best white label mobile marketing solution hands down.
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    www.Trumpia.com

    Trumpia: The Most Completed SMS Text Messaging Software & API Solution.
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    • Profile picture of the author Pmac721
      Just wanted to point out that not everyone on the forum who would be interested in the SMS provider information has PM Privileges. Perhaps you
      should also list an alternative way to contact you.
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  • Profile picture of the author jimevee
    Hey everyone I'm sorry for requesting that you PM for the information on the provider I recommend. Being new here just wasn't sure if it was proper forum etiquette so after going through some of the forums I guess it ok.

    So here it is Avidmobile. As a matter of fact I just found out today that they have 2 webinars coming up this week Tomorrow at 1:20 CST and Thursday at 1:30 CST. No hype, no fluff, no additional how to's being sold, just information on their reseller program. Here's the link if you'd like to register Webinar | AvidMobile

    Since this is not an affiliate link of any sort, if you decide to partner with them as your reseller just mention my name Jim Videtic and they have some special offers for those who I refer to them.
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    • Profile picture of the author BrashImpact
      As a consultant its about providing result's not who you operate through.

      Cash on Cash returns and Roi are what clients are looking for. If you can
      deliver results you can use any system you want, even if it was
      10 cents a text. With that being said...

      We are launching a Massive Platform for Consultants in the next 2 weeks, if you
      have interest feel free to PM me with your Email...

      Have a great Day...

      Regards,
      Robert
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      • Profile picture of the author Izesta
        Originally Posted by BrashImpact View Post

        As a consultant its about providing result's not who you operate through.

        Cash on Cash returns and Roi are what clients are looking for. If you can
        deliver results you can use any system you want, even if it was
        10 cents a text. With that being said...

        We are launching a Massive Platform for Consultants in the next 2 weeks, if you
        have interest feel free to PM me with your Email...

        Have a great Day...

        Regards,
        Robert

        It absolutely does matter who the provider is. If someone wants to plan a business to survive over the long run, then a reliable, trusted backend system is a necessity. And that's true for any endeavor. Otherwise, you could be in business today and out of business next week. Like everything on the internet, more than a few of the quick start-up operations are gonna go bust. Nothing is 100%, but it certainly will pay to study & do your homework & not select just based on price or any one factor.
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    • Profile picture of the author Izesta
      Originally Posted by jimevee View Post

      Hey everyone I'm sorry for requesting that you PM for the information on the provider I recommend. Being new here just wasn't sure if it was proper forum etiquette so after going through some of the forums I guess it ok.

      So here it is Avidmobile. As a matter of fact I just found out today that they have 2 webinars coming up this week Tomorrow at 1:20 CST and Thursday at 1:30 CST. No hype, no fluff, no additional how to's being sold, just information on their reseller program. Here's the link if you'd like to register Webinar | AvidMobile

      Since this is not an affiliate link of any sort, if you decide to partner with them as your reseller just mention my name Jim Videtic and they have some special offers for those who I refer to them.


      Hmmm, I'm still in the info-gathering stage. Signed up for a webinar on the AvidMobil site and got no response back from them. No url to join the meeting. No confirmation. Nothing.

      That's a bad way to start out & would make me reluctant to give them my money & make my business dependent on them.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Clough
        Originally Posted by Izesta View Post

        Hmmm, I'm still in the info-gathering stage. Signed up for a webinar on the AvidMobil site and got no response back from them. No url to join the meeting. No confirmation. Nothing.

        That's a bad way to start out & would make me reluctant to give them my money & make my business dependent on them.
        Think again....Avid has been nothing but 100% responsive and always gets back to me immediatley!

        Must have been some kind of glitch.
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  • Profile picture of the author jrobconsult
    For me at this point, I am looking at the affiliate programs and later on when I have more clients get a white label solution. I liked Trumpia affiliate program, but does it make you sign up for an account to spend $50 a month? I was confused looking at their application.
    What other affiliate programs have others used here and why? Thanks
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    • Profile picture of the author TheLocalCoach
      In my case, I'm trying to follow the protocol of the Forum by trying to add value with posts, not just flaunting our company. Not trying to be secretive, just respectful.
      Jay
      YeeZ Mobile
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      • Profile picture of the author GerryLee
        EatDrinkTextJay,

        I fairly new to the WF so I hope I'm not talking out of turn by pointing out that plenty of other members a dropping provider names and I've seen few if any objections.

        The few details that you provided about your SMS provider sounded pretty interesting...I'd love to hear more, and I'm guessing from the conversation plenty of others would too. I' just not sure That I'm ready for my phone number to become part of someones opt-in list.

        How about telling us who you're using if it won't violate some big secret or something.

        Thanks, GerryLee
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        • Profile picture of the author GerryLee
          OOPS!... sorry about the two posts....didn't think the first one "took".
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          • Profile picture of the author andwings2go
            I signed up with Trumpia, set up a trial account and free keyword and discovered that MetroPcs does NOT support short codes. Perhaps not an issue everywhere, but Metro has a very large market share in my area.

            I've tried the Twilio sandbox and I'm not having much luck publishing the basic php scripts. I use a WYSIWYG web builder, any advice on how to easily host simple php scripts would be greatly appreciated.
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            • Profile picture of the author TrumpiaTim
              Originally Posted by andwings2go View Post

              I signed up with Trumpia, set up a trial account and free keyword and discovered that MetroPcs does NOT support short codes. Perhaps not an issue everywhere, but Metro has a very large market share in my area.

              I've tried the Twilio sandbox and I'm not having much luck publishing the basic php scripts. I use a WYSIWYG web builder, any advice on how to easily host simple php scripts would be greatly appreciated.
              Hello, not all of our short codes support MetroPCS, if you'd like to be put on a short code which does support MetroPCS let me know your username and I'll make the switch.
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              www.Trumpia.com

              Trumpia: The Most Completed SMS Text Messaging Software & API Solution.
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          • Profile picture of the author TwilioExperts
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            • Profile picture of the author Digimax
              Originally Posted by ANS View Post

              If you want local business owners to manage their own sms campaigns, then white label is the way to go. I can help you to bild white label SMS application. Please PM me for more details, Actually I already have one white label application for sale and my clients are very much satisfied with the results. If any body needs white label SMS application then can contact with me.
              ANS: can't pm yet. pls email digimax at nspro dot com
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  • Profile picture of the author TommyB
    eatdrinktext
    your system says it does not recognize keyword
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    • Profile picture of the author TheLocalCoach
      Sorry Tommy, the message was coming in "Text Warrior", and I had the Keyword set up as just "Warrior". Try it again! Thanks.
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      • Profile picture of the author pcmmike
        HI

        The white label sms we use is Textmarks.com. Dont get me wrong trumpia is good but there white label is expensive. With textmarks you can get started for $100 a month and NO hidden fees. This gives you a back office that you can configure the colors and put your own logo on it. Your customers cant find out who you are using also which is great. They provide unlimited text which is a great deal for businesses. $99 = unlimited text, 700 subscribers. Customer support is excellent also. I have a WSO coming out real soon where I reveal our secret techniques we use in our business that works like gang busters Pm me if you like to be notified when we release our product.. hope this helps you out!
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  • Profile picture of the author scam crusher
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    • Profile picture of the author cybernet
      I'm looking for Sms white label platform that will work in CANADA.

      Any recommendations?
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  • Profile picture of the author Nick Surran
    I haven't seen mention of Lime Cellular on this thread. That's who I decided to go with after much research. Their pricing and terms are fantastic, PM me if you want the details of my deal.
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    I think Lime Cellular is the best white label SMS marketing platform.

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  • Profile picture of the author Morphius
    Anyone knows how to create a while label reseller for Twilio? PM me please
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  • Profile picture of the author Brazilraider
    thanks @ jimevee, i'm one of those folks that cannot send pm's yet. but i'm interested in contacting avidmobile.
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  • Profile picture of the author scotth
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    Based in Costa Rica Living my life on my terms a expat lifestyle and traveling the world at will. Time Freedom is True Freedom!

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  • Profile picture of the author jasonthewebmaster
    Banned
    White label may sound like a good idea, but is usually expensive.

    I provide a reseller program that is not white label but is more like a franchise.

    The benefit to partnering with me is that you don't have to pay anything, I provide marketing materials and training, and you get your own local territory.
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    • Profile picture of the author TrumpiaTim
      Originally Posted by jasonthewebmaster View Post

      White label may sound like a good idea, but is usually expensive.

      I provide a reseller program that is not white label but is more like a franchise.

      The benefit to partnering with me is that you don't have to pay anything, I provide marketing materials and training, and you get your own local territory.
      Sounds like they are just acting as your sales force, no?
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      www.Trumpia.com

      Trumpia: The Most Completed SMS Text Messaging Software & API Solution.
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    • Profile picture of the author ih2001
      what is the franchise you speak of jasonthewebmaster?
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  • Profile picture of the author stone2010
    I use this great white label company, very good price... i cannot put the info here but send me a PM i will be happy to help out
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    • Profile picture of the author IMguy123
      Anyone interested in licensing their Twilio front/back end (customized for internet marketers doing offline marketing) that can be white labeled, please pm me. I am interested in purchasing user rights to it.
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  • Profile picture of the author GaryCarlyle
    I am desperately looking for a way to offer visitors to my website a form so they can SMS text their friends. But not one where their friends would have to pay to receive the text.

    I managed to get a 400,000 exact match keyword domain.

    Slightly off-top and I dont mean to be rude but any ideas would be welcome.
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    UK TV abroad for free: http://WatchBritishTV.com

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  • Profile picture of the author Morphius
    If anyone needs a while label ready to use. I can have the codes ready for you in 3 weeks without a site, or with a complete website about a month. I am selling my codes. This system as built around Twillio.
    PM me for details.
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  • Profile picture of the author IngeniousBastard
    The two best systems I've come across are Lime and Avid for White Label options. I hear over and over that most of the folks on here run the campaigns for the customers and as such might not necessarily need a white label. I just can't fathom the idea of not having the tools available to me that these two providers bring to the table though.
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