Should I worry about this?...

by TimothyW

Posted: 10 years ago 13 replies

OFFLINE MARKETING

When I see ads on TV for lawyers, the spokesperson always says, "I am a non-attorney spokesperson."

But then I have plr videos I can rank, and get leads for lawyers -- and they do not say "I am a non-attorney spokesperson."

Should I be worried about putting up what are basically ads for "a lawyer" (any lawyer) without saying that qualifier?

Any advice on this?

-- TW

#worry

LizL

10 years ago

I'm a lawyer and I can tell you that it will depend on what state the lawyer lives in and what the videos say. How an attorney can advertise for clients is determined by the Bar in each state. In my state there are only certain types of ads that require the disclaimer. Some states do not allow attorneys to buy any internet leads at all. There are several major companies out there that sell internet leads to attorneys who are allowed to purchase them. They drive traffic to a site where the person has to enter contact info and some details about their situation.

How do you plan to use the videos to get leads?

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iAmNameLess

10 years ago

Originally Posted by LizL

Gosh... If you're a lawyer, I feel sorry for your clients. Laws regarding advertising are not rules of the bar association, it's laws passed through each state's legislature. Some states don't allow attorneys to buy internet leads? That's not true at all, unless you're going back to pre-70s where lawyers weren't able to advertise at all. You almost came close to making a good point though, except a little backwards. Lawyers can buy leads online from anybody, the question is, was the lead generation method legal? Providing lead generation for lawyers or law firms is very tricky and can lead you into legal trouble. You can not ask for details about a case, or even what area of law in some states as a third party lead generation source. You can not give any perception that you are an attorney, or lawyer. It doesn't matter what the video says, the law in every state I'm aware of is pretty clear that if you are not an attorney representing the firm, then you must include the disclaimer.

Each state DOES have laws regarding advertising for lawyers, no other profession has more strict laws for advertising than attorneys. I'm not aware of ANY state that doesn't have a law requiring a disclaimer for "non attorney spokesperson". I know the laws vary on each state that need to include whether the spokesperson is paid or not, but I don't think there's a state that doesn't require it.

USUALLY... the state's law requirements will have this listed:

Permissible Content. Television and radio advertisements may contain:

(A) images that otherwise conform to the requirements of these Rules;
(B) a lawyer who is a member of the advertising firm personally appearing to speak regarding the legal services the lawyer or law firm is available to perform, the fees to be charged for such services, and the background and experience of the lawyer or law firm; or
(C) a non-lawyer spokesperson speaking on behalf of the lawyer or law firm, as long as that spokesperson shall provide a spoken and written disclosure, as required(whatever the state's rule name/number is), identifying the spokesperson as a spokesperson, disclosing that the spokesperson is not a lawyer and disclosing that the spokesperson is being paid to be a spokesperson, if paid(like i said above, usually this last line will vary state-to-state).

So what should you do? Ask an attorney... and if you can't afford an attorney, better to be safe than sorry right?

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LizL 10 years ago

iAmNameLess - I am a lawyer and I regularly present on ethics matters, including advertising. Every state IS different and I can run commercials with spokespeople that require no disclaimer if I follow the rules. You are correct that the rules are not set by bar associations (which are usually lobbying and networking groups for attorneys) but by the Bar in each state. That is the governmental body that regulates lawyers. Regulations are the laws that are passed. The Bar then issues ethics opinions, which are not laws but rules that attorney must follow if they don't want to endanger their license. Up until 6 months ago in my state attorneys could not purchase internet leads at all. Now we can, but only in very limited circumstances. If attorneys use another advertising source, such as internet lead companies, the attorney in my state is deemed to be responsible for all methods used by the lead company and is held accountable for every piece of content on any website and in any ad that company uses to attract the leads. If the content on the site or in the ad violates the ethics rules then the attorney is held responsible for that.

Do attorneys in my state and other states buy internet leads in violation of the rules? Absolutely. Should they? No. And a few of them are getting into trouble for it. Internet lead companies are changing the way they collect and market leads as Bars in various states are passing stricter rules about leads.

But the OP did not say how he planned to use the videos which is why I asked him about that. If he is going to market the videos as a commercial for a particular law firm (with an overlay for the name/logo/phone number) and try to rank it in youtube then the video only needs to comply the advertising rules of the state(s) where the attorney is licensed and cannot try to market outside those states (so he can't intentionally try to rank for Iowa residents if he is only licensed in California). But if he is trying to rank the video to get traffic and leads from all over the country and then sell the leads to attorneys, then the attorneys will need to comply with the laws, rules and ethics opinions set out by their Bar for internet leads.
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AlphaWarrior

10 years ago

Originally Posted by iAmNameLess

Gosh... If you were a lawyer, I'd feel sorry for your clients. Apparently, you believe that everything in the law is clearly spelled out. It is not.

All states have Rule of Professional Responsibility which lawyers must, not may, but must follow. The Rules, which include rules on advertising and lawyer behavior, may be adopted by the legislature, the state bar, or, as in my state, the State Supreme Court. In my state's rules, if you look under advertising, you will not find anything about buying leads per se, but the rules do say that a lawyer cannot split a fee with a non-lawyer and our State Supreme Court has determined that buying leads is splitting a fee. Therefore, in my state, buying leads is unethical, not illegal, but unethical. The difference is that a lawyer who buys a lead is not going to be charged criminally, but is subject to loosing his/her license to practice law. And for anyone dealing with a lawyer who buys leads, it is telling them that the lawyer is unethical.

What can/cannot, must/must not be said in an advertisement, how it is said, and by whom it is said is another issue which again is covered by the lawyers' Rules of Professional Responsibility in most states.

If the op wants to do lawyer advertising, I suggest that he (1) contact lawyers and set up a service whereby the lawyers approve whatever advertising the op does and (2) the lawyers pay a set amount each month.

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iAmNameLess

10 years ago

Originally Posted by AlphaWarrior

What state are you from then so I can look it up? I've worked with attorneys from all 50 states, many are major firms. I believe the law is very straight forward in every state in regards to TV advertising, which is what this thread was originally about. I have never suggested that anyone get a commission when working with attorneys... I've been saying for years to not even attempt split fees with attorneys. Lawyers can buy leads, that isn't a split fee issue, that is purchasing information, not splitting attorney fees since the attorney or firm would pay whether they get the case or not. Same thing when a firm advertises in the yellowbook or yellowpages, they are paying for leads, just like any form of advertisement, but they pay to advertise whether they land clients or not.

For those wanting to read more in depth about the restrictions, instead of a bunch of theory, FindLaw | State Advertising Restrictions

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AlphaWarrior

10 years ago

Originally Posted by iAmNameLess

I believe the law is very straight forward in every state in regards to TV advertising, which is what this thread was originally about. I have never suggested that anyone get a commission when working with attorneys... I've been saying for years to not even attempt split fees with attorneys. Lawyers can buy leads, that isn't a split fee issue, that is purchasing information, not splitting attorney fees since the attorney or firm would pay whether they get the case or not. Same thing when a firm advertises in the yellowbook or yellowpages, they are paying for leads, just like any form of advertisement, but they pay to advertise whether they land clients or not.

You may have worked with lawyers from 50 states for however long, but the fact is that you are not a lawyer and you do not understand how the law works or how one topic such as advertising can be affected by a lot of unthought of concepts.

In the law, very few things are absolute. Nothing is in a vacuum by itself. That is why you can never get a simple yes or no answer from a lawyer. There are just too many variables.

You may not think that buying leads is fee splitting, but the Supreme Court of my state has ruled that it is and has warned lawyers to stay away from internet businesses that sell leads.

If you were a lawyer, you would understand how and why yellowpages, yellowbook, and even running a TV/video advertisement are a different animal from selling leads.

Again, if the op wants to do lawyer advertising, I suggest that he (1) contact lawyers and set up a service whereby the lawyers approve whatever advertising the op does and (2) the lawyers pay a set amount each month.

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iAmNameLess

10 years ago

Originally Posted by AlphaWarrior

You may not think that buying leads is fee splitting, but the Supreme Court of my state has ruled that it is and has warned lawyers to stay away from internet businesses that sell leads.

If you were a lawyer, you would understand how and why yellowpages, yellowbook, and even running a TV/video advertisement are a different animal from selling leads.

1.) Nice dodge... what state are you from? I haven't been able to see a single case in reference to what you're talking about. Care to show some proof? Supreme court cases are VERY well documented, I would think in 2014, it would be easy to find a few sources online. Buying leads, is not fee splitting, otherwise attorneys would not be able to partake in direct mail with leads provided by the post office either. Fee splitting would be a deal that essentially gives commission on attorney fees, with lead generation and buying leads whether it is simply contact information or detailed information, you are buying information or a service, you're not offering a fee contingent on that lead becoming a client.

2.) You missed the entire point. The topic of this was about the disclaimer in commercials, then somehow transformed into this useless debate about whether lawyers can buy leads or not (which they can). The issue is not with lawyers, but with lead generation companies pretending to be an attorney.

I look forward to receiving a response with a link to the supreme court findings.

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AlphaWarrior

10 years ago

Originally Posted by iAmNameLess

No dodge, but I am not going to argue law and legal matters with a non-lawyer. Nor am I going to give you information that any competent lawyer knows where and how to find it. Hint: Supreme Court rules/rulings do not come from cases alone.

What I have written is true. What you are saying about selling leads is simply not true in every state. It may be true in some states (I don't know. I am not licensed in other states), but it is absolutely not true in every state. Believe me or not.

Non-lawyers leading other non-lawyers in lawyer advertising is the blind leading the blind.

I haven't missed anything. Again, if the op wants to do lawyer advertising, I suggest that he (1) contact lawyers and set up a service whereby the lawyers approve whatever advertising the op does and (2) the lawyers pay a set amount each month.

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iAmNameLess

10 years ago

Originally Posted by AlphaWarrior

If you can't provide a simple link to a source about the supreme court ruling in your state then I assume it is because there is no such source. I have included sources, you haven't. As far as we know... You're not even an attorney. Hell, you may even have your own lead generation company for attorneys and you don't want the space to be crowded. You can't even tell us what state so we can all do some research.. You're dodging, plain and simple.

Talk is cheap.. I'd love to admit you're right and I'm wrong but you haven't exactly made a case. If you have nothing to support your argument except "I'm a lawyer and what I say is the truth even though there's no proof", then you're no different than the countless wso's with unverified income claims.

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TimothyW

10 years ago

What I figured is, if I charge a flat monthly fee, that would be advertising (not selling leads).
I'd be in essence, an online newspaper (or equivalent). Then I'm not a spokesperson.

BUT that still doesn't explain why those ads I see on TV also have that disclaimer!
(the TV channels aren't selling leads either)

-- TW

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LizL 10 years ago

The ads you see on TV are for specific law firms. The law firm is advertising and must follow the ethics rules and opinions for their state. If it is a local station then your state must require the disclaimer. Most do require the disclaimer.

Depending on how the rules are written, all advertising, including the advertising for leads by others, may be required to conform to those rules too. In my state they are. So if I bought leads from you (even at a flat monthly rate or on a per lead basis -- neither of which is the prohibited fee splitting) your ads would have to follow the advertising rules in my state. Attorneys in my state are held responsible for the actions of third party advertisers.

But that may not be the case in every state. And I'm sure the majority of the lawyers in my state have no idea or don't care that's it is the rule. The bottom line is that the legal field is a competitive business and some attorneys would rather get as many clients as possible without concern for the ethics rules. There are some firms in my state that are getting into trouble for that attitude and the Bar is coming with very strict rules about internet lead purchases. Once they allowed it attorneys immediately started buying them up, without regard for the general advertising rules.

If the area of law covered by the videos is popular, you might consider marketing only in your state and rank the videos for state-specific keywords. Check with your state's Bar about internet lead purchase rules first and make sure you follow them.The Bar can give you guidance about this. You may need to add a disclaimer depending on the content of the ad.

As an attorney, I only want leads in my geographic area. I would pay more for leads that I was certain were generated in accordance with my state's Bar rules.

If you find that the rules are too strict in your state, hunt around -- other states may have less strict rules.
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LizL

10 years ago

And for nameless -- As we keep trying to tell you law - the rules are not laws. They are ethics rules and if you break them you can lose your license.

Florida is not my state but here are their guidelines for videos upload to the internet

http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/Attachments/4AEC3CC3C76510A885257B5900643E6E/$FILE/Guidelines%20-%20Video%20Sharing%20Sites.pdf?OpenElement

and for TV and radio ads

http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/Attachments/BC62A0668CD06CD2852574E3004E6DDF/$FILE/Checklist%20-%20TV%20&%20Radio.pdf?OpenElement

and advertising in general

Advertising Rules

I require that my third party advertisers follow my state's rules. It's in the contract. And if they don't they are liable for my losses (legal fees for defending an ethics violations charge, loss of clients, etc). That's a whole lot of money if they don't comply. I've worked with several lead companies. They are all aware of the rules and willing to follow them. You may want to make sure that you are in compliance. It has very little to do with fee splitting any more.

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iAmNameLess

10 years ago

Originally Posted by LizL

And for nameless -- As we keep trying to tell you law - the rules are not laws. They are ethics rules and if you break them you can lose your license.

Florida is not my state but here are their guidelines for videos upload to the internet

http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/Attachments/4AEC3CC3C76510A885257B5900643E6E//Guidelines%20-%20Video%20Sharing%20Sites.pdf?OpenElement

and for TV and radio ads

http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/Attachments/BC62A0668CD06CD2852574E3004E6DDF//Checklist%20-%20TV%20&%20Radio.pdf?OpenElement

and advertising in general

Advertising Rules

I require that my third party advertisers follow my state's rules. It's in the contract. And if they don't they are liable for my losses (legal fees for defending an ethics violations charge, loss of clients, etc). That's a whole lot of money if they don't comply. I've worked with several lead companies. They are all aware of the rules and willing to follow them. You may want to make sure that you are in compliance. It has very little to do with fee splitting any more.

I appreciate that, and I agree with you. We always have checked rules and laws, and that's why I was arguing about the fee splitting with lead generation, because it's not true.

In many states, you can only advertise the principal office location, including the name of the law firm is pretty much standard. The biggest issues of non-compliance I see on a regular basis is the use of tracking numbers that record the conversation, as well as video marketing done by a third party without including the name of the firm in the video, and sometimes giving legal advice in the video.

It is our job as marketers and advertisers to know the laws in the niches that we work with. Any ethic rules from the bar, I require the client to sign off on everything we do to get their approval before anything is "live" or public.