Don't want to sell SEO

20 replies
I have recently started my web design agency and was thinking of the additional services that I can offer businesses that would help them grow. (I have read plenty of threads here and I understand the fact that selling websites will not work, I have to sell them a solution that will help them grow).

However, I get the impression that the only service to convince businesses seems to be getting ranked in Google. I personally don't feel comfortable in the SEO field and I would not feel comfortable taking money for providing a service that does not (and cannot) guarantee success. For example, I can follow all the best practices of SEO, but at the end of the day I cannot guarantee a client that their website will get ranked. This is why I want to stay away from offering SEO as a service. Now doing a lot of research on my competition in my area, all of the web design agencies offer SEO as a service.

Therefore, I was confused as to which direction I should go. I am personally very interested in building websites with high conversion rates. I have read and learned a lot about conversion optimization.

So my question being, would I be able to do well by being a web design agency without offering SEO as a service. If yes, than how would I cold call a business or do an in-person meeting and convince them that the website I build for them (one that has a high conversion rate, mobile friendly) will help them grow their business.

Or is there any other type of additional service that I can offer businesses (besides SEO), that compliment the website and help improve their business.

Will appreciate your replies.

Thank You
#sell #seo
  • Profile picture of the author jamesfreddyc
    Of course there's more to web development than design services and seo. SaaS is incredibly viable and will eventually take over traditional installed software.

    Of course you will have to either transition from design to a real web developer or hire one.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPaley
      Originally Posted by jamesfreddyc View Post

      Of course there's more to web development than design services and seo. SaaS is incredibly viable and will eventually take over traditional installed software.

      Of course you will have to either transition from design to a real web developer or hire one.
      Thank you for replying. I didn't quite understand your point however. If you could please elaborate about SaaS and transitioning from "design to a real web developer or hire one."
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      • Profile picture of the author jamesfreddyc
        Originally Posted by TimPaley View Post

        Thank you for replying. I didn't quite understand your point however. If you could please elaborate about SaaS and transitioning from "design to a real web developer or hire one."
        SaaS or "software as a service" is really functional software except it is distributed and used over the Internet. It isn't web design, its software that users access and use by logging into the site.

        My image of a "web designer" is just more about creating a collection of pretty web pages. It isn't software.

        SaaS model is great because there is nothing for users to install and typically pay a subscription fee to access the services.
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

          More like they have SEO as a service but don't know JACK about SEO to begin with.

          I personally haven't seen a single solitary firm that advertises themselves as a web design agency that also has SEO as a service
          have any clients in their portfolio ranking for anything, let alone there
          own site in the web design space.

          Why don't you consider positioning yourself as a web design firm the specializes in conversion design.
          I do Russ. Usually selling web design services is a requirement for anyone wanting to use us for SEO. The reason is, control, money, and ability to build things right from the start to allow for better rankings later on. Although, usually the people that become leads from web design advertising or related marketing specific to web design, rarely turn into an SEO customer until maybe a year after the completion of their website. I think that may be a trust issue related to exactly what you mentioned.

          To the OP: The whole selling websites doesn't work and only sell solutions is just a bit of hype on here. Yes, it is beneficial if you can figure out that someone has a problem that the service you offer solves, but it seriously isn't necessary. Look at web.com. People always talk about commodities, and how to not be a commodity but the way I see it, is commodities are successful.

          Honestly... the people that NEED me... aren't my ideal client. The people that DON'T need me are my ideal client.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimPaley
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            I do Russ. Usually selling web design services is a requirement for anyone wanting to use us for SEO. The reason is, control, money, and ability to build things right from the start to allow for better rankings later on. Although, usually the people that become leads from web design advertising or related marketing specific to web design, rarely turn into an SEO customer until maybe a year after the completion of their website. I think that may be a trust issue related to exactly what you mentioned.

            To the OP: The whole selling websites doesn't work and only sell solutions is just a bit of hype on here. Yes, it is beneficial if you can figure out that someone has a problem that the service you offer solves, but it seriously isn't necessary. Look at web.com. People always talk about commodities, and how to not be a commodity but the way I see it, is commodities are successful.

            Honestly... the people that NEED me... aren't my ideal client. The people that DON'T need me are my ideal client.
            Thanks for your input. Yea I guess it could be considered as a little hyped up but I do see the advantage of looking at it as a "solution for a problem or a need" or "solution to help grow" than just selling you a good looking website.

            With websites like web.com offering DIY websites, do you think there will be demand for premium web design services? if not, what services do you think (in online marketing space) will be in demand? "Jamesfreddyc" made a good point about SaaS rising. What is your opinion ?
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            • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
              Originally Posted by TimPaley View Post

              Thanks for your input. Yea I guess it could be considered as a little hyped up but I do see the advantage of looking at it as a "solution for a problem or a need" or "solution to help grow" than just selling you a good looking website.

              With websites like web.com offering DIY websites, do you think there will be demand for premium web design services? if not, what services do you think (in online marketing space) will be in demand? "Jamesfreddyc" made a good point about SaaS rising. What is your opinion ?
              Don't overthink this whole field. Just get actual paying deals in hand. Do develop tripwire services
              you can offer as part of your marketing approach.

              There are so many businesses out there that you will be able to offer web design for a long time.

              A lot of small businesses go the route of having an employee, who is getting, 8 to 10 per hour,
              say they can do 'web stuff'. Then that employee leaves and did little or nothing on the web
              stuff. Suppose they use do use web.com, you can still offer things that improve their internet
              marketing results.

              You just keep going through suspects and prospects until you get actual clients who are a match
              for what you offer and the resources they don' t have (such as the ability to do web stuff effectively in house), or they want the effectiveness of what you offer.

              You don't have to offer SEO. There are so many other aspects of internet marketing for offline
              business that you can offer - specialize in. Social media, content, copy, sales funnels, video,
              conversion... It would not hurt to know people you can send clients to for SEO or what have you.

              This thread will give you more ideas:

              http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...offliners.html

              HTH

              Dan
              Signature

              "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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              • Profile picture of the author TimPaley
                Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

                Don't overthink this whole field. Just get actual paying deals in hand. Do develop tripwire services
                you can offer as part of your marketing approach.

                There are so many businesses out there that you will be able to offer web design for a long time.

                A lot of small businesses go the route of having an employee, who is getting, 8 to 10 per hour,
                say they can do 'web stuff'. Then that employee leaves and did little or nothing on the web
                stuff. Suppose they use do use web.com, you can still offer things that improve their internet
                marketing results.

                You just keep going through suspects and prospects until you get actual clients who are a match
                for what you offer and the resources they don' t have (such as the ability to do web stuff effectively in house), or they want the effectiveness of what you offer.

                You don't have to offer SEO. There are so many other aspects of internet marketing for offline
                business that you can offer - specialize in. Social media, content, copy, sales funnels, video,
                conversion... It would not hurt to know people you can send clients to for SEO or what have you.

                This thread will give you more ideas:

                http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...offliners.html

                HTH

                Dan
                Great suggestions here. What do you think about outsourcing SEO or partnering with an SEO firm as a reseller. One company in my area provides SEO services (its a relatively big company, one that also takes part in being a contributor to Moz's Google ranking factors). They offer a SEO reseller program. Would you suggest, going the SEO reseller route or even SEO outsourcing route? ... or just stay away from SEO and offer other servies that you mentioned. Thanks.
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                • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                  Originally Posted by TimPaley View Post

                  Thank you for your input. How do u suggest a web design firm can provide a return for a client without doing SEO ?
                  Originally Posted by TimPaley View Post

                  Great suggestions here. What do you think about outsourcing SEO or partnering with an SEO firm as a reseller. One company in my area provides SEO services (its a relatively big company, one that also takes part in being a contributor to Moz's Google ranking factors). They offer a SEO reseller program. Would you suggest, going the SEO reseller route or even SEO outsourcing route? ... or just stay away from SEO and offer other servies that you mentioned. Thanks.
                  To answer both questions. Stay in your comfort zone. Lets assume you know web design. Do that
                  well enough to build a site that is top notch in conversion factors, navigation factors, coding, and all
                  the onpage SEO standards. Also, do the right website for the client.

                  I know of a web designer who studies the client's operations - for maybe a month if needed. And then builds the site they need for their business. One example is replacing the pretty site that has the
                  basic home, about, gallery, contact... with one that sold their stuff in the most logical and profitable
                  ways possible. His customers just wanted a site that lets them order parts needed in two clicks and get back to business.

                  As for SEO, you have to be very knowledgeable about SEO to properly choose a reseller or outsourcer - so maybe add it when you reach that zone. Sometimes it's just best to set up a mutually referring relationship with SEOs.
                  Like realtors often refer to three service providers such as home inspectors or whatever, and let the client choose
                  who they are most comfortable with. Less backfire (and actual liability) that way since the chose.

                  Dan
                  Signature

                  "If you think you're the smartest person in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room."

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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Now doing a lot of research on my competition in my area, all of the web design agencies offer SEO as a service
    More like they have SEO as a service but don't know JACK about SEO to begin with.

    I personally haven't seen a single solitary firm that advertises themselves as a web design agency that also has SEO as a service
    have any clients in their portfolio ranking for anything, let alone there
    own site in the web design space.

    Why don't you consider positioning yourself as a web design firm the specializes in conversion design.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimPaley
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      More like they have SEO as a service but don't know JACK about SEO to begin with.

      I personally haven't seen a single solitary firm that advertises themselves as a web design agency that also has SEO as a service
      have any clients in their portfolio ranking for anything, let alone there
      own site in the web design space.

      Why don't you consider positioning yourself as a web design firm the specializes in conversion design.
      Appreciate your reply. I can look towards positioning myself as a web design agency specializing in conversion optimization. How do you suggest pitching to a client and convincing on the benefits of having a website with high conversion rate ?
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  • Profile picture of the author CageyVet
    The idea that having a business that only does web design will not work is an over exaggerated notion on this forum. There is no reason as to why a business can not just sell web design to clients without any other products or service offerings. The thing is, there is quite a bit of money that is left of the table for each of your website clients and that is where most people on this forum get their feathers ruffled. Since if you are charging X for a website and you want to make 5X a month, you need 5 website clients a month to make your goal. But if every 2nd client also needs Y that you can offer them, then you need to find less clients a month to meet your target and further to that if it is a recurring monthly charge, then you need to source even less clients a month to meet your target. This is where the websites alone are not sustainable as a business model comes from...even though it is flawed logic.


    If you are only building websites for new businesses and/or redesigning existing sites, there is no reason why you can not sustain a full time income doing this....In the UK alone for 2013... 526,446 new businesses were registered. So even if in a year, you were able to get an ad or proposal in front of a half a percent of those businesses with a 5% conversion rate..that is 131 websites in a year.

    Now if you want to have add-on services, think of website maintenance, hosting, updates, graphic/photo optimization, etc etc. Things that are easily in your current wheel house of skills that can easily be taken on by you till you have time/money to outsource them.

    Then if you are finding that clients are looking for a lot of "other" services, then you can look to find partner companies to work along side that have more skills in those other areas.
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Which ever way you go, having a BIG idea
      that gets your ideal client to sit up and take notice,
      have a WHY it's needed now to solve a problem,
      then set up your solution as the ONLY answer..

      is going to get you traction.

      Best,
      Doctor E. Vile.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        I personally being a SEO specialist first, and a web designer second, sell my services as a web designer. Patch working SEO to an existing site is painful to say the least. often times it ends up as being counter productive. That being said I am in agreement with Iam. Designing with SEO in mind gives you that control, and capital to do it right.

        So to more specifically answer the OP... what can you offer if you do not want to offer SEO... well what is the function of SEO? it is to draw traffic correct? well then you need to replace offering SEO with another Traffic method.

        Depending on your market there is Google Bing, and Yahoo for business ( I consider these SEO, but many do not. I also included these in most of my packages ) So what's left? well there is PPC in all of its forms, and there is social media. I gravitate more towards Social Media myself.

        Social media if you semi half way know what you are doing can produce better than decent results. the monthly price tag isn't bad either. Add that to what I have mentioned above, and results are about a given.

        Conversion Optimization... I get an ugly taste in my mouth when this is brought up under the context of developing a site, and charging extra for it. Its right up there with selling a car and saying the tires are extra. But I will admit the ideals that I carry in business are probably a stretch from many others.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimPaley
          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

          I personally being a SEO specialist first, and a web designer second, sell my services as a web designer. Patch working SEO to an existing site is painful to say the least. often times it ends up as being counter productive. That being said I am in agreement with Iam. Designing with SEO in mind gives you that control, and capital to do it right.

          So to more specifically answer the OP... what can you offer if you do not want to offer SEO... well what is the function of SEO? it is to draw traffic correct? well then you need to replace offering SEO with another Traffic method.

          Depending on your market there is Google Bing, and Yahoo for business ( I consider these SEO, but many do not. I also included these in most of my packages ) So what's left? well there is PPC in all of its forms, and there is social media. I gravitate more towards Social Media myself.

          Social media if you semi half way know what you are doing can produce better than decent results. the monthly price tag isn't bad either. Add that to what I have mentioned above, and results are about a given.

          Conversion Optimization... I get an ugly taste in my mouth when this is brought up under the context of developing a site, and charging extra for it. Its right up there with selling a car and saying the tires are extra. But I will admit the ideals that I carry in business are probably a stretch from many others.
          I have not yet done market research in my area regarding the demand for social media services. Based on your experience, do you believe businesses are willing to pay for social media services ? And what would social media services involve? running contests, paid ads? or just basic management of their social profiles ? Thanks !
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          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
            Originally Posted by TimPaley View Post

            I have not yet done market research in my area regarding the demand for social media services. Based on your experience, do you believe businesses are willing to pay for social media services ? And what would social media services involve? running contests, paid ads? or just basic management of their social profiles ? Thanks !
            Tim,

            Social Media... better yet, converting Social Media is an art. An example... My oldest son, he can build a social following like there is no tomorrow. However, he cant sell a dang thang to them. He doesn't get "It". "It" is the interaction, the engagement of that following. I personally have NEVER run a contest. Couldn't tell you if they work or not.

            Here is the thing.... If you are having to do "Market Research" or you are asking what to offer, you are in the same shoes with this, as you are with SEO.

            I am a FIRM... can I say that again? FIRM believer, that you can only offer what it is you have experience with.

            If you are not replicating a proven working converting system for your clients, here is simply some work that needs to be done.

            Have you had any personal success with a website? Do you have one now? Can you make your phone ring? Can you sell product? can you get a prospects email address in exchange for a free report?

            As I see and practice, those are the skills of a web designer. If you cant do those simple things, you need to pull up your sleeves and learn how.

            The process of actually making those elements work is going to teach you the skills needed to pull traffic, to retain traffic, to educate traffic, and to convert traffic.

            Hope that Helps!
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            • This is a great thread.

              If the idea of being a conversion expert appeals to you, then I think you may be limiting yourself by thinking you could only work directly for local business owners.

              To do that sort of work for a local business owner, you're forcing yourself into a position where you have to drive the traffic (either via PPC or SEO) to get the needed numbers to properly test and tweak a site for conversion. Not sure your average local business owner is going to want to pay for this sort of help. That hasn't been my experience anyway.

              I would suggest you consider working for a different crowd:

              - successful IMers
              - successful ecommerce website owners
              - PPC experts

              I see a lot of opportunity for those designers / developers that have an eye for site usability, proper information architecture and the user experience. UX / IA is a huge field and almost always ignored by web designers.

              If you have a good handle on the above + analytics, you've got a good foundation that could set you up as a conversion expert and you would be a huge asset to one of the above groups I mentioned.

              With PPC experts in particular... I wouldn't be surprised if there were some dying to get a quality web developer to work with them on campaigns. You could be their right-hand man and create a nice service for yourself. The idea of working for an hourly rate + commission seems pretty exciting.

              I personally know someone that landed a gig doing SEO and site optimization for a guy that was a HUGE seller of air purifiers online. He made a tidy sum working for him, and it was fun.

              Here are some resources I've really enjoyed when learning about UX and Analytics:

              - http://usabilitygeek.com/ - great great stuff here
              - Treehouse - some great lessons on UX and Google Analytics
              - Lynda.com - Watch the Online Video Course Foundations of UX: Information Architecture
              - Learn Google Analytics - Training & Certification ? Google Analytics
              --> More Lynda.com

              So to answer your question (in sum):

              is there any other type of additional service that I can offer businesses (besides SEO), that compliment the website and help improve their business?
              Possible clients:

              - IMers
              - Ecommerce site owners
              - PPC Experts and the clients they serve

              More difficult IMO:

              - local business owners that are willing to pay for a conversion expert
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              • Profile picture of the author TimPaley
                Originally Posted by Kung Fu Backlinks View Post

                This is a great thread.

                If the idea of being a conversion expert appeals to you, then I think you may be limiting yourself by thinking you could only work directly for local business owners.

                To do that sort of work for a local business owner, you're forcing yourself into a position where you have to drive the traffic (either via PPC or SEO) to get the needed numbers to properly test and tweak a site for conversion. Not sure your average local business owner is going to want to pay for this sort of help. That hasn't been my experience anyway.

                I would suggest you consider working for a different crowd:

                - successful IMers
                - successful ecommerce website owners
                - PPC experts

                I see a lot of opportunity for those designers / developers that have an eye for site usability, proper information architecture and the user experience. UX / IA is a huge field and almost always ignored by web designers.

                If you have a good handle on the above + analytics, you've got a good foundation that could set you up as a conversion expert and you would be a huge asset to one of the above groups I mentioned.

                With PPC experts in particular... I wouldn't be surprised if there were some dying to get a quality web developer to work with them on campaigns. You could be their right-hand man and create a nice service for yourself. The idea of working for an hourly rate + commission seems pretty exciting.

                I personally know someone that landed a gig doing SEO and site optimization for a guy that was a HUGE seller of air purifiers online. He made a tidy sum working for him, and it was fun.

                Here are some resources I've really enjoyed when learning about UX and Analytics:

                - http://usabilitygeek.com/ - great great stuff here
                - Treehouse - some great lessons on UX and Google Analytics
                - Lynda.com - Watch the Online Video Course Foundations of UX: Information Architecture
                - Learn Google Analytics - Training & Certification ? Google Analytics
                --> More Lynda.com

                So to answer your question (in sum):



                Possible clients:

                - IMers
                - Ecommerce site owners
                - PPC Experts and the clients they serve

                More difficult IMO:

                - local business owners that are willing to pay for a conversion expert
                Thank you for your suggestions. This is a really good model to utilize conversion optimization skills!

                I was aware of lynda.com and treehouse but was not aware of usabilitygeeks. I will definitely be following that blog.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Cagey,

      I get what you are saying. I personally have no issue with leaving $ on the table, I take issue in building something that will offer the client zero return, and say you did your part now pay. ( modern day snake oil sales man )

      The real issue using your numbers is you are looking for those 131 "New" business' every year. year in and year out. By providing a service that nets no return on your clients do you think you will get referrals? And think of the time involved in landing those 131 clients... OMG, you wouldn't have time to build a site.

      Retention and Referrals are the life blood of a web design firm. Without those... you will be done in less than 6 months. If you are not providing the slightest in return, you without question are doing your clients a dis service, the industry a dis service, and yourself a dis service. Every one looses, UNLESS you can make your client win.

      It really is not a hard concept. Produce a product that provides results. Repeat that process over and over. Abundance will be yours.


      Originally Posted by CageyVet View Post

      The idea that having a business that only does web design will not work is an over exaggerated notion on this forum. There is no reason as to why a business can not just sell web design to clients without any other products or service offerings. The thing is, there is quite a bit of money that is left of the table for each of your website clients and that is where most people on this forum get their feathers ruffled. Since if you are charging X for a website and you want to make 5X a month, you need 5 website clients a month to make your goal. But if every 2nd client also needs Y that you can offer them, then you need to find less clients a month to meet your target and further to that if it is a recurring monthly charge, then you need to source even less clients a month to meet your target. This is where the websites alone are not sustainable as a business model comes from...even though it is flawed logic.


      If you are only building websites for new businesses and/or redesigning existing sites, there is no reason why you can not sustain a full time income doing this....In the UK alone for 2013... 526,446 new businesses were registered. So even if in a year, you were able to get an ad or proposal in front of a half a percent of those businesses with a 5% conversion rate..that is 131 websites in a year.

      Now if you want to have add-on services, think of website maintenance, hosting, updates, graphic/photo optimization, etc etc. Things that are easily in your current wheel house of skills that can easily be taken on by you till you have time/money to outsource them.

      Then if you are finding that clients are looking for a lot of "other" services, then you can look to find partner companies to work along side that have more skills in those other areas.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimPaley
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

        Cagey,

        I get what you are saying. I personally have no issue with leaving $ on the table, I take issue in building something that will offer the client zero return, and say you did your part now pay. ( modern day snake oil sales man )

        The real issue using your numbers is you are looking for those 131 "New" business' every year. year in and year out. By providing a service that nets no return on your clients do you think you will get referrals? And think of the time involved in landing those 131 clients... OMG, you wouldn't have time to build a site.

        Retention and Referrals are the life blood of a web design firm. Without those... you will be done in less than 6 months. If you are not providing the slightest in return, you without question are doing your clients a dis service, the industry a dis service, and yourself a dis service. Every one looses, UNLESS you can make your client win.

        It really is not a hard concept. Produce a product that provides results. Repeat that process over and over. Abundance will be yours.
        Thank you for your input. How do u suggest a web design firm can provide a return for a client without doing SEO ?
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  • Profile picture of the author NeedBucksNow
    Do you have any previous sites that you could show them? I would think if you have a great looking site with great content you wouldn't have to worry about SEO that much anyways. I would just tell them to put it on Facebook, Twitter, the list goes on and on & if people like it they will usually pass it on
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